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Australia is incubating a dementia time bomb · The Morning Edition

0:03
S1: Dementia is the number one cause of death here, and
0:07
S1: it's a uniquely terrifying one, given that it can often
0:10
S1: lead to a greatly eroded sense of self and lost
0:13
S1: memory of loved ones. The number of cases are set
0:16
S1: to double by 2061, when it's expected that 1 million
0:20
S1: Australians will suffer from dementia. But now some Australians are
0:25
S1: accessing new therapies which can, in the case of Alzheimer's disease,
0:29
S1: the most common form of dementia, slow its progress. I'm
0:34
S1: Samantha Salinger Morris, and you're listening to The Morning Edition
0:37
S1: from The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, senior
0:41
S1: writer Clare Weaver on how close we are to a
0:44
S1: cure and why only some Australians are no longer hostages
0:48
S1: to neurodegeneration as we age. Welcome, Clare, to the podcast.
0:57
S2: Thank you. Lovely to be here. Okay, so Clare.
0:59
S1: Many Australians know someone living with dementia or they've cared
1:02
S1: for a loved one with it. So just let's start off.
1:05
S1: Can you tell us how do medical experts actually define dementia,
1:09
S1: and what is life actually like for the roughly 450,000
1:13
S1: Australians who are currently affected by it?
1:16
S2: Well, look, dementia is actually an umbrella term for various
1:18
S2: progressive brain conditions that can impair your memory thinking behaviour
1:23
S2: and your ability to carry out everyday activities. So Alzheimer's
1:26
S2: disease is the most common form, and that accounts for
1:29
S2: around 60 to 70% of cases. But other common types
1:32
S2: include vascular dementia, Lewy body dementia, which is a type
1:36
S2: that can cause hallucinations and delusions and paranoia. And that's
1:40
S2: the type that actor Robin Williams had, although that only
1:44
S2: became apparent after he died. Frontotemporal dementia is the type
1:47
S2: that the actor Bruce Willis has, and that targets the
1:50
S2: part of the brain involved in language and behaviour. And
1:54
S2: as to what life's like. Well, it really varies for
1:57
S2: people living with dementia from those like our case study,
2:00
S2: Billy Yates, whom I spoke to for the story. He
2:02
S2: managed to maintain a very active and full life seven
2:06
S2: years after his diagnosis with early onset dementia. So, you know,
2:09
S2: he does a lot of exercise. He socializes with his friends,
2:12
S2: and he makes a big effort to stay on top
2:14
S2: of symptoms. But then the other end of the spectrum,
2:17
S2: there are those in the later stages of the disease
2:20
S2: who can experience very distressing symptoms like agitation, losing the
2:24
S2: ability to communicate immobility and loss of bodily functions. And
2:28
S2: it's really heartbreaking for family members who often describe what
2:32
S2: it's like to witness their loved one slipping away before
2:34
S2: their eyes. But look, a lot has changed. Until last decade,
2:39
S2: dementia was regarded as this grim lottery. So if you
2:42
S2: made it into your twilight years, you just wait and
2:44
S2: see if it came for you. And if you carried
2:47
S2: a gene linked to dementias, it was like your destiny.
2:50
S2: But to that, when people were diagnosed with dementia, their
2:53
S2: doctors would say to them, get your affairs in order
2:56
S2: as there's nothing that can be done. You know, make
2:58
S2: sure your will is done, that kind of thing. So
3:01
S2: nowadays the thinking has changed and there's a real emphasis
3:04
S2: on living well with dementia and taking preventative measures to
3:08
S2: slow progression of the disease. So there's a lot of
3:11
S2: focus on staying connected, having an active social life, eating well,
3:16
S2: remaining active, and really just living your best life.
3:20
S1: And even beyond that, I mean, you've just written a
3:22
S1: number of features for our mastheads, and within them are
3:25
S1: all these reasons for most of us to be quite optimistic, right?
3:28
S1: Because as you've reported, researchers say that progress is momentous.
3:32
S1: Some are even using the word breakthrough when it comes
3:34
S1: to treating dementia. So what sort of scientific breakthroughs are
3:37
S1: we seeing, and why are we in a period of
3:40
S1: remarkable scientific momentum? As one expert called it when speaking
3:44
S1: to you?
3:45
S2: Yeah. Well that's right. Everything has changed a lot. So
3:48
S2: we had 20 years where researchers were stuck in this
3:51
S2: frustrating quagmire. So they'd have all these promising trials and
3:55
S2: everything looked great and everyone was very excited. And then
3:57
S2: it would collapse at the last minute or the last
3:59
S2: stage of clinical trials, and a practical diagnostic test remained elusive.
4:04
S2: And billions and billions of dollars were being spent, but
4:07
S2: nothing was working. So pharmaceutical companies began to pull out.
4:11
S2: Research and development is really, really expensive. And, you know,
4:13
S2: they weren't getting bang for buck. And meanwhile, dementia surged
4:19
S2: to become Australia's number one killer. So things weren't looking good.
4:23
S2: But now, happily, that impasse has lifted.
4:27
S3: Dementia is now the leading cause of death in Australia.
4:31
S4: Almost half a million Australians are living with dementia and
4:35
S4: the numbers keep rising. Researchers believe they are closer than
4:38
S4: ever to a breakthrough in dementia diagnosis.
4:42
S5: A breakthrough new drug to treat dementia has shown promising results.
4:48
S2: And what I observed talking to scientists for this feature,
4:50
S2: is that the word breakthrough is being used a lot,
4:53
S2: alongside other words like hope, which is really wonderful. So
4:56
S2: we've got the big developments are we've got two new drugs,
5:00
S2: which are the first to successfully modify Alzheimer's disease, which is,
5:03
S2: as I said, the most common form of dementia. And
5:06
S2: so that actually interferes with the progression of Alzheimer's disease.
5:10
S2: These are two monoclonal antibodies called Lecanemab and donanemab. And
5:16
S2: they've been approved by the medical watchdog, the Therapeutic Goods Administration.
5:20
S2: And there are now new generations of monoclonal antibodies that
5:24
S2: are expected to be even more effective than those first two.
5:27
S2: And they're already at clinical trials. So so things are
5:30
S2: looking good. Meanwhile, a blood test has also been developed
5:33
S2: that can detect biomarkers for Alzheimer's up to 20 years
5:37
S2: before a patient's first forgotten word with kind of 92% accuracy.
5:41
S2: So that's also a huge breakthrough because not only is
5:45
S2: it better for patients potentially to be able to get
5:47
S2: that information, but it can be used in research as well.
5:51
S2: So these are real game changers and they are causing
5:54
S2: a lot of excitement and optimism in the medical and
5:57
S2: scientific communities, which, you know, they're not prone to being
6:01
S2: overly excited unless there really is evidence. So it's a
6:03
S2: good thing. And the World Alzheimer's Report, which came out
6:06
S2: a couple of weeks ago, now says that dementia is
6:09
S2: no longer universally described as untreatable. And we're entering this
6:13
S2: period of remarkable scientific momentum.
6:16
S1: That's incredible. And I'm just wondering what other near breakthroughs
6:19
S1: or promising research is underway, whether here or elsewhere, because
6:22
S1: there's lots of other studies happening as well, aren't there?
6:25
S2: There are. There's so much being done in this space.
6:27
S2: At the Florey in Melbourne, for example, researchers are working
6:31
S2: on developing mRNA vaccines for Alzheimer's, which would cost as
6:35
S2: little as $50 a dose. So that's a very exciting area.
6:39
S2: And then there's also work being done to look at
6:41
S2: repurposing existing drugs and what role they might have in dementia.
6:45
S2: So viagra, the erectile dysfunction drug, is actually being explored
6:50
S2: for potential use in vascular dementia, and there's been some
6:54
S2: work done at the University of Oxford that's showing some
6:56
S2: promising results. And there is a plausible mechanism for that
6:59
S2: because viagra works by improving blood flow, which is impaired
7:03
S2: in vascular dementia. And another one was that researchers are
7:06
S2: investigating whether riluzole, which is a drug used to treat
7:10
S2: motor neurone disease, could improve cognition in people with Alzheimer's
7:14
S2: and reduce build up of amyloid in the brain.
7:17
S1: So that's all incredible, right? It's obviously giving a lot
7:20
S1: of people hope. It's certainly great as a layperson to
7:22
S1: hear that. But do scientists actually think that there might
7:24
S1: be a cure for dementia within our lifetime, or perhaps
7:28
S1: beyond that?
7:28
S2: Look, that's the hope. I think everyone wants that cure.
7:31
S2: But given dementia is an umbrella term for various different
7:35
S2: forms of the disease, it's unlikely there will be this
7:38
S2: singular cure. And one of the experts I spoke to,
7:41
S2: Henry Brodaty, who was the senior Australian of the year,
7:44
S2: he talked about how early in his career he was
7:47
S2: very optimistic, and he'd say, there'll be a treatment in
7:49
S2: five years. And he said, after about 20 years, he
7:52
S2: stopped saying that, and now he's far more interested in prevention.
7:55
S2: But obviously everyone wants treatments, and especially with these treatments
7:59
S2: that could potentially be used early on to stave off
8:02
S2: the progression of the disease, that would really, really change
8:05
S2: the kind of time bomb that we're facing with dementia.
8:08
S1: Okay. Well, that brings me to my next question, because,
8:10
S1: you know, many of the experts that you interviewed said
8:12
S1: that there are preventative measures and lifestyle changes that we
8:15
S1: can make now to curb the risk of dementia. So
8:18
S1: I guess first off, maybe tell us what the risk
8:20
S1: factors are that we should know about that increase our
8:22
S1: chances of developing dementia, and then what changes can we
8:25
S1: make to help protect our brain health? And how much
8:28
S1: can these changes actually help?
8:31
S2: Yeah, look, it's a really good question. A lot of
8:33
S2: the risk factors relate to health conditions. So other health
8:36
S2: conditions you might have. And look surprisingly the two risk
8:40
S2: factors that carry the biggest weight in a Lancet commission report.
8:44
S2: And we're hearing loss and high cholesterol, which I don't
8:48
S2: think people would intuitively imagine would be the two, the
8:52
S2: two big ones. So obviously, addressing hearing loss and also
8:56
S2: addressing high cholesterol can make a big impact. And then
9:00
S2: there are other health conditions also connected to a high
9:04
S2: risk of dementia that can be addressed. So like high
9:07
S2: blood pressure, obesity, diabetes, stroke, if you had a stroke
9:13
S2: and vision loss is another one.
9:14
S1: So what is the connection between hearing loss and high
9:17
S1: cholesterol and high blood pressure or stroke, diabetes, obesity. What
9:21
S1: is the connection between those conditions and then the risk
9:24
S1: of developing dementia?
9:26
S2: Yeah. Look, broadly speaking, because they are all quite different.
9:29
S2: Some are linked to inflammation and cell damage. And with
9:33
S2: hearing loss and vision loss, it isn't 100% understood. But
9:37
S2: one of the reasons that's been suggested that I thought
9:39
S2: was quite interesting is that having eye strain or hearing
9:42
S2: strain can increase your cognitive load. So the amount your
9:45
S2: brain has to work, having to strain your eyes or
9:48
S2: your hearing amongst all the other input that's coming into
9:50
S2: your brain, adds that extra stress on your brain, and
9:54
S2: hearing loss, we know, contributes to a cascading effect of
9:56
S2: decreased social engagement, mental well-being, and physical activity, which increased
10:00
S2: the risk of cognitive decline and dementia. So they have
10:04
S2: been singled out as particular factors that really are quite
10:07
S2: easy to address. You know, for vision loss, it could
10:09
S2: be surgery, it could be getting glasses for hearing loss,
10:12
S2: it could be getting hearing aids. But in any case,
10:14
S2: addressing it is important. And then there are also plenty
10:18
S2: of lifestyle factors that have been identified too. And some
10:21
S2: of it is just general good advice for health. Eat well.
10:25
S2: So most of the experts I spoke to followed a
10:27
S2: kind of Mediterranean style diet to reduce their risk of dementia.
10:30
S2: So lots of fruit and vegetables, whole grains, healthy eating
10:34
S2: and don't smoke. No smoking at any level is good
10:38
S2: for dementia. Cutting back on alcohol and exercising regularly. Physical
10:42
S2: activity was a big one that all the experts spoke
10:45
S2: about that they prioritized, and they made the point that
10:48
S2: being physically active exercising is then connected to a whole
10:51
S2: lot of other things will help as well, like helping
10:52
S2: with your sleep, potentially keeping you socially connected because being
10:56
S2: socially connected and cognitively active is important too. There are
11:00
S2: just so many factors that every time there's a new
11:02
S2: report into prevention are being added on to the list,
11:05
S2: and the World Health Organization will probably add more factors
11:09
S2: the next time it does report. I know I spoke
11:12
S2: to one of the people on that panel, and she
11:14
S2: said one of them could be spending time in nature.
11:17
S2: Another one addressing chronic kidney disease and air pollution has
11:20
S2: been identified, as well as a factor being exposed to
11:23
S2: those dangerous particulates is linked to dementia, too.
11:29
S1: After the break.
11:30
S2: If we don't do anything about it, and if this
11:33
S2: trajectory continues on the course, it's on the cumulative economic
11:36
S2: cost of having up to 1 in 40 people in
11:39
S2: Australia with dementia by 2061 would surpass $1 trillion.
11:50
S1: Okay, so you've taken us through, I guess, a lot
11:52
S1: of hope, right? Scientific breakthroughs, the practical things that we
11:55
S1: can do in our own lives that might help curb
11:57
S1: the risk of developing dementia. But here's where we get
12:01
S1: to a major challenge that you have exposed in your features.
12:05
S1: And this is really the distinct lack of government funding
12:08
S1: in this area. You know, you might think there'd be
12:10
S1: a lot of it, given the scientific momentum that you've
12:13
S1: been talking about. And just how many Australians are predicted
12:16
S1: to be affected by this by 2061, it's set to
12:19
S1: be a million people. So tell us about this lack
12:22
S1: of funding for dementia here and what's going on, because
12:25
S1: you had a real blunt sentence in one of your features.
12:28
S1: You write that, quote, Australia is incubating a dementia time bomb.
12:32
S1: Walk us through this, Claire. Yeah.
12:34
S2: Well, look, we have an ageing population, and the biggest
12:37
S2: risk for dementia is age. So it does look like
12:40
S2: a time bomb, especially when you look at the projected
12:42
S2: number of cases over the next 30 to 40 years
12:45
S2: in line with our aging population. But of course, that's
12:48
S2: not a given that that will happen, that, you know,
12:51
S2: if we can change that trajectory, fantastic. The problem is
12:56
S2: that changing the trajectory would require a multi-pronged approach. And
12:59
S2: a lot of that is work in prevention. So like
13:02
S2: Henry said, really you want to delay dementia until after
13:06
S2: you die. And there have been extraordinary cases of people
13:09
S2: whose brains, when they've been dissected postmortem, are just riddled
13:13
S2: with all the signs of dementia, all the plaques and tangles.
13:16
S2: And they look like the brain of someone who was in,
13:19
S2: you know, the end stages of dementia. And yet there
13:21
S2: were 100% functional right up to death. So it just
13:25
S2: shows the power of prevention. Having a cognitive reserve. And
13:28
S2: you know that you can still function well even with
13:31
S2: all those biological biomarkers of dementia. But if we don't
13:36
S2: do anything about it, and if this trajectory continues on
13:39
S2: the course, it's on the cumulative economic cost of having
13:42
S2: up to 1 in 40 people in Australia with dementia
13:45
S2: by 2061 would surpass $1 trillion. So not only is
13:50
S2: that a huge cost, a human cost for all those
13:53
S2: people and their families, but also economically it will be
13:57
S2: huge for Australia. And while a lot of money does
14:00
S2: go into dementia, specifically aged care, there isn't as much
14:03
S2: money going into prevention. And that's why a lot of
14:06
S2: the experts I spoke to were frustrated, because they know
14:09
S2: there are things we can do, really practical, basic things
14:12
S2: that we can do to lower our risk. But getting
14:15
S2: that message out there is difficult. And surveys have shown
14:19
S2: that a lot of Australians don't realise that dementia is preventable.
14:22
S2: It's not just this part of getting older. So really
14:26
S2: what they would like to see is investment in prevention,
14:29
S2: particularly for GPS, so that GPS can look at all
14:32
S2: those health conditions that we know are linked to a
14:35
S2: higher risk of dementia and those lifestyle factors, and get
14:38
S2: people to start enacting changes in middle age, which is
14:41
S2: that crucial time to make changes. Because look, when it
14:44
S2: comes down to it, I suppose the truth is that
14:46
S2: funding could be that determining factor over whether someone actually
14:50
S2: develops dementia in their lifetime or not. Another place where
14:54
S2: I've learned more about funding shortages was the brain backs.
14:57
S2: I went to Sydney Brain Bank, and they've got hundreds
14:59
S2: of brains in storage that are used by researchers all
15:03
S2: around the world. And it's really important because this is
15:06
S2: actual biological evidence of dementia, and it's invaluable in research,
15:10
S2: and it is connected to the breakthroughs that we've seen.
15:13
S2: But really, they're struggling to keep operations going. Victoria had
15:17
S2: to stop taking new donations. Other brain banks have closed
15:21
S2: because they just can't get those funds. Other researchers spoke
15:24
S2: about how they had applied for grants that had since disappeared,
15:28
S2: and they couldn't get funding to go to the next
15:30
S2: stage of what looks like promising research. So it's a
15:33
S2: really difficult one because obviously, the government has to put
15:36
S2: money into providing services for people who have dementia. But
15:40
S2: at the same time, the big picture is that the
15:42
S2: long term cost is going to be very high if
15:44
S2: they don't put money into prevention. And there was one expert,
15:47
S2: Doctor Morita Long, a GP, told me breakthroughs make good
15:51
S2: news stories and make governments happy. But it's hard to
15:53
S2: have a good news story about prevention because you don't
15:56
S2: see what you don't get. And it's true.
15:59
S1: And it's quite a devastating picture that you do paint
16:02
S1: in your features. And to that point, because you mentioned
16:04
S1: that for individuals, a greater funding would make a huge difference, right?
16:08
S1: You reported that some individuals in Australia are digging into
16:11
S1: their superannuation to pay up to $100,000 for expensive new
16:15
S1: drug treatments that presumably are not subsidised otherwise. Bill gates,
16:20
S1: who you mentioned before, he had to pay $2,500 for
16:23
S1: a Pet scan that confirmed he had young onset dementia.
16:26
S1: I believe he was only about 59, so really wasn't
16:29
S1: expecting that. But at the pointy end, is this lack
16:32
S1: of government funding also preventing or slowing down scientists from
16:36
S1: developing a cure?
16:38
S2: Well, it's hard to say for sure, but likely yes,
16:40
S2: because the funding is absolutely critical in developing new treatments,
16:45
S2: and there rightfully are very rigorous standards that have to
16:49
S2: be met for a treatment to get through to approval
16:51
S2: stage and be released onto the market. But these researchers
16:55
S2: are competing for a very limited pool of grants and
16:57
S2: funding sources to pay for their work. And it's a
17:01
S2: very competitive environment, and it comes at a time when
17:04
S2: governments are making decisions about budgets and they have to
17:08
S2: make cuts. And unfortunately, sometimes medical researchers is on the
17:12
S2: receiving end of that. They are the ones facing those cuts.
17:14
S2: But look, given the size of our nation's dementia prognosis
17:18
S2: and the potential to change that trajectory, not enough is
17:22
S2: going into kind of targeted, practical and innovative strategies, both
17:26
S2: in development of new treatments and research.
17:30
S1: And you mentioned in one of your pieces in the
17:32
S1: United States that as many people will be aware of,
17:35
S1: United States President Donald Trump speaks unfavorably about vaccines. And
17:39
S1: so in the US, there's sort of a lack or
17:42
S1: a a lessening of clinical trials and research and science
17:46
S1: is sort of being eroded, I guess, in that way.
17:48
S1: But what about locally here? Why is our government not
17:51
S1: doing this funding, especially when the picture that you paint
17:54
S1: is something that is avoidable? You know, this is due
17:57
S1: to affect so many Australians. It can be so devastating.
18:01
S1: And there is this incredible potential to prevent these outcomes.
18:05
S1: So why is our government not doing the funding that
18:07
S1: so many of the experts that you speak to say
18:10
S1: would make such a difference?
18:12
S2: Look, they they do provide some funding, but I think
18:14
S2: it's the shortfall. So really, everyone who works in this
18:19
S2: field would like to see more funding for the areas
18:22
S2: they work in. The GPS I spoke to would like
18:25
S2: to see it in prevention. They'd like to see public
18:27
S2: health initiatives. There's a really simple tool that one of
18:31
S2: the professors developed, which is an online survey that you
18:34
S2: can do, and it assesses your risk. It's been clinically validated,
18:38
S2: and that could be introduced as a really simple tool
18:41
S2: in a kind of middle aged health check, just like
18:43
S2: you do for bowel cancer or any other chronic disease
18:47
S2: that could make such a big difference. And really for
18:50
S2: not a lot of cost when you compare it to
18:52
S2: what it could save. And likewise, in research, I think
18:56
S2: the government is putting in money. And I'm sure, you know,
18:58
S2: we could dig up examples of where it's putting in
19:00
S2: money for research, but it's not enough. The researchers and
19:04
S2: clinicians would like more.
19:06
S1: And so, Claire, just to wrap up, you know, after
19:08
S1: all the research you've done into this, all the writing
19:11
S1: you've done, what is the bottom line for Australians who
19:14
S1: are caring for a loved one with dementia or are
19:16
S1: perhaps concerned about their own future health?
19:19
S2: I think it's really important for people to learn about dementia,
19:23
S2: to do some of their own research in a way,
19:26
S2: and be aware of the risk factors, because, as I
19:29
S2: wrote in my feature, up to 50% of risks are
19:33
S2: modifiable for dementia. And if you're aware of those risks,
19:37
S2: then you can adapt your life and hopefully reduce your risk.
19:40
S2: I think we should beware of being complacent about treatments
19:43
S2: because although it's very exciting seeing all these wonderful breakthroughs
19:46
S2: coming through, there is no cure, there's no magic bullet.
19:49
S2: And a really important part of dementia is prevention. Like
19:54
S2: Marita Long said, she said she was worried that everyone
19:57
S2: thinks there's going to be this magic cure, which it isn't,
19:59
S2: and that's the monoclonal antibodies. And prevention is better than cure.
20:03
S2: But when there's no cure, prevention is everything. So I
20:05
S2: think that's where your focus really needs to be.
20:08
S1: And on that point, one thing I thought was absolutely
20:10
S1: fascinating in one of your features was that there are
20:12
S1: certain vaccines that we could get. Obviously, people should speak
20:15
S1: to their general practitioners. We are not medical specialists. But
20:19
S1: I know that you noted that, for instance, the shingles
20:21
S1: vaccine is shown to lower risk of developing dementia by 29%.
20:26
S1: So one of your experts, I believe, suggested that Australians
20:28
S1: from 50 up might want to consider that. At the moment,
20:32
S1: I believe it's Australian 65 and over who are recommended
20:35
S1: and that there are other vaccines for flu and RSV
20:39
S1: and diphtheria and tetanus, and others that are also associated
20:42
S1: with lower risk of dementia. Is that right?
20:44
S2: Yeah. That's right. It's really interesting because, you know, at
20:47
S2: first glance you'd think, oh, it's because, you know, you're
20:49
S2: protecting yourself against that disease. And presumably not getting that
20:52
S2: disease lowers your risk of dementia. But it seems more
20:55
S2: than that. It's actually something. One of the components in
20:58
S2: the vaccines, specifically the modern versions of the vaccines that
21:02
S2: seem to have this protective effect. So researchers are very
21:06
S2: excited about that. And some of the experts from Neura
21:09
S2: spoke to suggest that in the future, that age, which
21:12
S2: you become eligible for the shingles vaccine should be reduced
21:15
S2: so that people can start getting those benefits earlier on.
21:19
S2: And they suggested from 50 years onwards.
21:23
S1: Well, there's obviously so much exciting developments happening in this
21:27
S1: space and so much room for hope. So thank you
21:29
S1: so much, Claire, for your time.
21:31
S2: Thank you.
21:41
S1: In other news, today, Australia's health system is not prepared
21:45
S1: for the growing number of older patients arriving in emergency
21:48
S1: departments as elderly and frail patients are left in hospital
21:52
S1: corridors to deteriorate while they wait for a bed, according
21:55
S1: to a report from the Australasian College of Emergency Medicine.
21:59
S1: And head to our mastheads to check out all the
22:02
S1: winners from the 2026 Age Good Food Guide Awards, including
22:06
S1: who nabbed the Chef and Restaurant of the year awards.
22:10
S1: You can read more at the age.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's
22:16
S1: episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer is
22:20
S1: Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy
22:24
S1: and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow The
22:28
S1: Morning Edition and leave a review for us on Apple
22:30
S1: or Spotify. Thanks for listening.