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The Great UK Election Swindle | Jerm Warfare Weekly Banter · UK Column Radio

0:30
Speaker 1: My name is Jim. This is germ warfare, the battle
0:33
Speaker 1: of ideas.
0:35
Speaker 2: I believe that you had a fairly significant election a
0:40
Speaker 2: few days ago. I don't particularly understand the election cycle
0:45
Speaker 2: of the UK, but I'll just qually tell you how
0:47
Speaker 2: it works here, and you can tell me if there's
0:48
Speaker 2: an overlap. We have a major national election I think
0:52
Speaker 2: every four, four or five years. I forget now if
0:55
Speaker 2: it's four or five, and that's when you vote for
0:58
Speaker 2: the party slash president, and it's a fairly ideological vote.
1:03
Speaker 2: I don't vote in that election. I just cannot bring
1:07
Speaker 2: myself to supporting any other parties. But in between those
1:11
Speaker 2: national elections, we have what's called a municipal election and
1:15
Speaker 2: or local election, where it's a more practical vote, so
1:19
Speaker 2: you can change who the municipalities are and that that
1:21
Speaker 2: affects pottholes and lights and electricity and you know, water
1:25
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. Was this election that
1:28
Speaker 2: you had in the UK something like that.
1:30
Speaker 3: Yes, and so.
1:32
Speaker 4: But but the way that it works here is even
1:35
Speaker 4: more complicated because most councils, the local elections are basically
1:41
Speaker 4: held every year, and so what a lot of councils
1:43
Speaker 4: do is they kick out a third of their councilors,
1:48
Speaker 4: and so we end up with a third being elected
1:52
Speaker 4: every three years or sometimes every or sometimes there's some
1:55
Speaker 4: other arrangement every four years. It's every council seems to
1:58
Speaker 4: do it.
1:59
Speaker 3: Is there.
2:00
Speaker 4: There are multiple ways that it happens. But what's often
2:04
Speaker 4: done here is that the the local elections if there's
2:08
Speaker 4: any kind of turnout at all, and for this one
2:10
Speaker 4: there absolutely was a much higher turnout than usual. What
2:14
Speaker 4: you what you find is that these effectively become referendums
2:19
Speaker 4: for the national policy because actually nobody really has any
2:25
Speaker 4: idea what happens at the local level, doesn't really care.
2:28
Speaker 4: They do complain a lot about potholes in the road
2:31
Speaker 4: and and the cost of council tax and so on,
2:34
Speaker 4: but but most people aren't engaged in any way at
2:39
Speaker 4: in local politics. It's it's national politics at kinds if
2:42
Speaker 4: they're engaged in politics, or if they're you know, engaged
2:45
Speaker 4: in the sense of even thinking about it, and so
2:50
Speaker 4: so that for that reason, local elections tend to become
2:53
Speaker 4: a referendum on the government of the day.
2:56
Speaker 2: So it says, yeah that Reform UK gained a one
3:00
Speaker 2: than three hundred seats, is that significant.
3:03
Speaker 4: It isn't It isn't. I my understanding is that they're
3:10
Speaker 4: I'm going to get the numbers wrong here, but my
3:12
Speaker 4: understanding is that they're the share of the vote that
3:14
Speaker 4: they got fell from the last time there was a
3:18
Speaker 4: local from the last local elections, and that was the
3:21
Speaker 4: reason that they that they got so many seats was
3:25
Speaker 4: as much to do with the fact that there was
3:28
Speaker 4: a split. There were splits in the the other parties,
3:32
Speaker 4: between the other parties because because looking at the at
3:37
Speaker 4: the country as a whole, it looks like the share
3:40
Speaker 4: of the vote they got was actually less than the
3:42
Speaker 4: last time. So so it's it's a mixed picture. They're
3:46
Speaker 4: certainly celebrating this as a massive victory and many many
3:51
Speaker 4: people that would be supportive of Farajan and his policies
3:54
Speaker 4: would be are absolutely viewing this as a massive victory
3:58
Speaker 4: and so we but again, you know, this is local elections,
4:05
Speaker 4: so whether that's Wales included from Great No Scotland and Wales,
4:09
Speaker 4: that's two separate things. Because they were they were holding
4:13
Speaker 4: inverted Comma's national elections there because they have devolved parliaments.
4:18
Speaker 4: So this is a it's it's a it's a because
4:22
Speaker 4: they have. Westminster has gone done this path of devolution
4:26
Speaker 4: and handing you know, certain powers over to a you
4:34
Speaker 4: might call it a regional parliament, but certainly since Scotland
4:37
Speaker 4: and Wales considered themselves to be separate countries, they would
4:41
Speaker 4: consider those to be national parliaments, so national from a
4:46
Speaker 4: country point of view and regional from a sort of
4:49
Speaker 4: United Kingdom point of view, and so those were those
4:53
Speaker 4: were definitely more significant, certainly in Wales where the Labor
4:58
Speaker 4: Party has been effectively in trawl wheels forever and that
5:05
Speaker 4: neither they've lost that. So it was quite a it
5:09
Speaker 4: was you know, as much as the story was about
5:12
Speaker 4: the disaster for Starmar not totally expected. Nobody was surprised
5:16
Speaker 4: by that whatsoever. And now we're into this cycle of
5:19
Speaker 4: whether he will remain as Prime Minister or not.
5:22
Speaker 2: Now how much of this is Ratten circles as well?
5:25
Speaker 2: I mean, what does reform UK actually mean and versus
5:28
Speaker 2: the Tories and the Labor.
5:34
Speaker 5: Already clear? Yet I think one one thing to say
5:38
Speaker 5: is that the I mean, well, it's probably already clear,
5:41
Speaker 5: but certainly to anyone who's from an audience that's outside
5:45
Speaker 5: of this country or these countries it's hard to view
5:51
Speaker 5: these processes as anything other than deliberately confusing. You know,
5:55
Speaker 5: the fact that they don't. The local elections happen in
5:58
Speaker 5: different places at different times means that you never get
6:01
Speaker 5: more than a piece of the puzzle to look at
6:04
Speaker 5: at one time. So this is it's really what the
6:09
Speaker 5: media does with it, and indeed what the political parties
6:14
Speaker 5: and the machine does with it. So you can you
6:17
Speaker 5: can make any of this look like frankly, look like anything,
6:21
Speaker 5: and there's always precedent that you can go back to
6:24
Speaker 5: and say, well, you know, at that point, because obviously
6:27
Speaker 5: the one big comparison is that Margaret Thatcher had a
6:32
Speaker 5: sort of catastrophic local election disaster immediately well almost immediately
6:38
Speaker 5: prior to winning a general election by landslide, and so
6:41
Speaker 5: that you can cite that or you can say that
6:43
Speaker 5: it does mean something. So sort of it is, and
6:47
Speaker 5: it isn't meaningful just I've got the statistics up actually
6:50
Speaker 5: the gate what is I mean? I suppose on the
6:52
Speaker 5: face of it, what's significant is that Labor have lost
6:55
Speaker 5: fourteen hundred and ninety six seats and Reform have gaves
7:00
Speaker 5: aimed almost exactly the same fourteen hundred and fifty one.
7:03
Speaker 5: As to your question, does it mean that were there
7:08
Speaker 5: to be a reform Well, sorry, do you mean well, yeah,
7:13
Speaker 5: I mean.
7:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, that's a whole other question.
7:20
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that really is that?
7:21
Speaker 3: That?
7:21
Speaker 5: That absolutely is. I mean I think primarily what they
7:26
Speaker 5: want to reform is people's idea of what it is
7:31
Speaker 5: that a political party might do. And they because they're
7:36
Speaker 5: they have a small number of MPs in the House
7:39
Speaker 5: of Commons, but basically because they're untainted by having held
7:44
Speaker 5: the office of government, they have no track records, so
7:48
Speaker 5: they can't at the moment.
7:50
Speaker 4: Well hold on, Charles, let's let's just hold on there
7:53
Speaker 4: a second, because that's not entirely true, because in the
7:55
Speaker 4: last six or eight months, Farage has systematically brought in
8:00
Speaker 4: people that have been in government and the most disgusting
8:05
Speaker 4: people that have been in government as well, the likes
8:07
Speaker 4: of Sajid Javid who was Vaccine Minister during the Covidocracy
8:12
Speaker 4: and hard so quite a number of these disaffected Tories
8:17
Speaker 4: have been brought into the Reform Party to sit on
8:21
Speaker 4: the reform side of the in the Reform seats, and
8:25
Speaker 4: so they absolutely have experience of some of the worst
8:30
Speaker 4: Tory policy this country's ever seen so so we should
8:35
Speaker 4: keep that caveat in mind.
8:38
Speaker 5: Yeah, sorry, just to get I did it's a har
8:40
Speaker 5: you mean not not just sorry? Yes, yes'tural right, who's
8:44
Speaker 5: not a who's not a serving MP at the minute,
8:46
Speaker 5: but obviously has joined the party. But yes, I mean
8:52
Speaker 5: as I say, I think the point still stands that
8:54
Speaker 5: because they haven't held a term of office, therefore no
8:58
Speaker 5: one can point to a portrait record or failing to
9:00
Speaker 5: deliver on this and the other promise, or saying this
9:02
Speaker 5: and actually doing that, which of course is exactly what
9:06
Speaker 5: the particularly the Conservative Party and the Labor Party have
9:10
Speaker 5: for you know, forever that you can always point to
9:13
Speaker 5: where they absolutely failed or lied or both, whereas reform
9:18
Speaker 5: doesn't have that. So I think I think at the
9:20
Speaker 5: minute the sort of the Farage ticket is effectively to say,
9:24
Speaker 5: you know, come on, follow me. I'm different. What I
9:28
Speaker 5: say will actually be born out because we are going
9:31
Speaker 5: to do this, that and the other. Although I'd be
9:37
Speaker 5: lying if I said I'd be scrutinizing it exactly closely
9:40
Speaker 5: enough recently, but certainly the big ticket item for him
9:47
Speaker 5: or for reform has been migration. And this is why
9:52
Speaker 5: both the labor government and the conservative opposition, as as
9:57
Speaker 5: it's supposed to be, have also been chasing that football
10:00
Speaker 5: around the park. Farrage I think has if you've really
10:06
Speaker 5: listened to what he says, he has sort of undermined
10:10
Speaker 5: his own argument because it doesn't seem entirely clear I think,
10:14
Speaker 5: unless Mike is going to correct me, but it doesn't
10:16
Speaker 5: seem entirely clear that his banging the big drum about
10:22
Speaker 5: migration is going to be dealt with because he has
10:27
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people entered into the reform
10:31
Speaker 5: channel by thinking, sorry, I didn't mean to necessarily use
10:35
Speaker 5: the word channel, but he has convinced people that he
10:40
Speaker 5: will somehow get rid of migrants or certainly asylum seekers
10:45
Speaker 5: or people who've come here via irregular or illegal migration.
10:50
Speaker 5: And actually, when he's been pressed on the subject, he
10:53
Speaker 5: said it's simply not practical and that there won't be deportations.
10:58
Speaker 5: I mean, not necessar criticizing him for saying that. I
11:01
Speaker 5: think what what he should be criticized for is for
11:05
Speaker 5: leading people to believe that he's going to do one
11:08
Speaker 5: really big thing, only to admit that in actual fact,
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Speaker 5: he's not going.
11:12
Speaker 1: To do it. Is either Trump but for the UK, well,
11:15
Speaker 1: he thinks he is.
11:19
Speaker 4: He considers himself a personal friend of Trump. He absolutely
11:23
Speaker 4: whatever Trump says for as echoes. That's that's it has
11:28
Speaker 4: been for the last few years. But the fascinating thing
11:31
Speaker 4: is that, you know the King. The King's Speech is
11:34
Speaker 4: going to be on Wednesday this week and one of
11:38
Speaker 4: the bits of legislation that is going to be announced
11:41
Speaker 4: is Starmar's efforts to bring to reverse Brexit, and for
11:51
Speaker 4: a just pretty quiet on that he has been as
11:56
Speaker 4: as Starmar has been making announcements in this direction over
11:58
Speaker 4: the last six eight months, and really not that much
12:04
Speaker 4: commentary from or or campaigning from from.
12:10
Speaker 3: Farage to get that stopped.
12:13
Speaker 5: What was Farage's position during COVID hmm, again, pretty well
12:22
Speaker 5: silent until the jab story broke and then he he
12:29
Speaker 5: he actively endorsed Tony Blair as somebody who would sort
12:34
Speaker 5: of sort all that out. I think didn't It isn't
12:36
Speaker 5: that right.
12:39
Speaker 3: Quite honestly, I can't remember this.
12:41
Speaker 5: I think he did, I think he called for and again,
12:44
Speaker 5: so much happened. It is a little bit difficult to
12:46
Speaker 5: be totally precise about details, but I'm fairly confident that
12:51
Speaker 5: he he called for Tony Blair to be the sort
12:54
Speaker 5: of you know, vaccine czar or whatever it would have
12:59
Speaker 5: been called, to kind of grip it and to make
13:03
Speaker 5: it happen. And he was absolutely out there that that
13:07
Speaker 5: ludicrous period where people, I mean anyway people went out
13:12
Speaker 5: into the street and banged pots and pans for the
13:16
Speaker 5: National Health Service who were busy making videos of them
13:21
Speaker 5: dancing in empty hospitals. So I don't know, I think,
13:27
Speaker 5: you know, again, for Age, I think he was sort
13:29
Speaker 5: of bamboozled by it actually because he he was, you know,
13:35
Speaker 5: whilst in the European Parliament. He knew his subject and
13:38
Speaker 5: he knew his audience, and he delivered a very effective campaign.
13:42
Speaker 5: I think of that, there can be no doubt. And afterwards,
13:48
Speaker 5: when that was apparently sort of over the line, I
13:51
Speaker 5: think he did seem lost a bit bamboozled, and certainly
13:56
Speaker 5: what happened next in twenty twenty appeared to leave him
13:59
Speaker 5: totally speechless because he didn't, as far as I recall,
14:04
Speaker 5: he wasn't even banging the sort of drum of liberty
14:08
Speaker 5: because there were two in effect, there were two separate
14:11
Speaker 5: things which obviously always get conflated. One is the idea
14:15
Speaker 5: of liberty. And then the other one was the well,
14:18
Speaker 5: you know, is there actually a threat or not? So
14:23
Speaker 5: you've got the I think this is pertinent. Obviously we're
14:26
Speaker 5: talking about and yet another cruise ship with a rat
14:31
Speaker 5: infested or whatever. It's what absolute nonsense. Perhaps we'll talk
14:35
Speaker 5: about that in a bit. But he, for somebody who
14:39
Speaker 5: had been talking about the sovereignty of the country, the
14:43
Speaker 5: sovereignty of the population, and this, that and the other,
14:46
Speaker 5: it didn't seem to him to be terrifically obvious that
14:50
Speaker 5: imposing nationwide lockdowns and whatnot was completely flying in the
14:54
Speaker 5: face of the principles that he had supposedly been cleaving
14:58
Speaker 5: too whilst in the European Parliament. So that was very
15:01
Speaker 5: inconsistent and it took a while for him to find
15:06
Speaker 5: his feet, and I think when he did, his line
15:08
Speaker 5: was right, well, let's get everyone jabbed. So it is
15:11
Speaker 5: kind of amazing that people would see that progression, that
15:15
Speaker 5: evolution of him personally, and then to see the Reform
15:18
Speaker 5: Party spawned from that and still to think, yeah, okay,
15:22
Speaker 5: here we go, this is he's the one for me.
15:26
Speaker 2: Is is his position on Israel are therefore the same
15:31
Speaker 2: as Trump's if he's a close finder.
15:33
Speaker 4: He's absolutely pro Israel. No, there's no, there's no two
15:37
Speaker 4: ways about that.
15:41
Speaker 5: It is a slippery he is also he also said
15:45
Speaker 5: on the immediately after the conflict with Iran started, he
15:50
Speaker 5: I forget what it was terribly awkward, but he said
15:52
Speaker 5: something like, you know, whilst in general I'm sort of
15:55
Speaker 5: anti war and I don't think we should be going
15:57
Speaker 5: into conflicts, this is one that I do believe is
16:01
Speaker 5: is right. So I mean, he's he's all over the shop.
16:04
Speaker 5: He's also interestingly, with Iran, he is absolutely pushing Razor Polavi,
16:10
Speaker 5: the son, the son of the late Shah, to step
16:13
Speaker 5: into the breach and to be the you know, the
16:16
Speaker 5: new regime for Iran.
16:18
Speaker 2: What are your views in on on these elections? Is
16:22
Speaker 2: it is it just moving chairs around on the Titanic
16:24
Speaker 2: or is there some value that can come out of it?
16:29
Speaker 4: I think it does give if we if we do
16:33
Speaker 4: look at it as as you know, a referendum for
16:36
Speaker 4: how people are thinking that, then it perhaps has a
16:43
Speaker 4: little bit of value. I mean from a from a
16:45
Speaker 4: purely local politics point of view, it's it's you know,
16:52
Speaker 4: in Plymouth for example, never absolutely was transced, but you know,
16:58
Speaker 4: because of the way that the election works. You know,
17:02
Speaker 4: Libor is still in control of Plymouth City Council, so
17:07
Speaker 4: so nothing will change as far as this city is concerned,
17:10
Speaker 4: and it'll be similar in other parts of the country.
17:17
Speaker 4: As I said, there was a bigger turnout this time
17:20
Speaker 4: than there has been for quite a number of years,
17:23
Speaker 4: and so that is an indication that people are feeling
17:28
Speaker 4: that they needed to have to make some kind of
17:30
Speaker 4: statement about why the country is being run. At a
17:34
Speaker 4: national level. I think Starmar's absolutely had a message sent,
17:42
Speaker 4: but you know, is that going to make any difference.
17:44
Speaker 4: Absolutely not. So if if he can survive, you know,
17:48
Speaker 4: from a personal point of view, if he can survive
17:50
Speaker 4: the next couple of weeks and remain as Prime Minister,
17:55
Speaker 4: then the agenda will continue. If he doesn't survive and
18:02
Speaker 4: he is forced to step down, then the Libor party
18:05
Speaker 4: will go through some kind of leadership election. I don't
18:08
Speaker 4: know how long that would take because you know, they
18:13
Speaker 4: have a particular way of doing things. But at the
18:16
Speaker 4: end of the day, somebody else will come along, you know,
18:20
Speaker 4: Angela Renner or somebody will come well strating, somebody will
18:24
Speaker 4: come along take Starmer's place and the agenda will continue,
18:29
Speaker 4: so so you know, it actually isn't going to make
18:32
Speaker 4: any difference to where we're going to be in three
18:37
Speaker 4: years time when the next general election takes place. And
18:41
Speaker 4: then the question is what kind of general election will
18:46
Speaker 4: that be, because we don't know whether this country is
18:50
Speaker 4: going to be actually on a war footing back then
18:52
Speaker 4: or not. Certainly that seems to be the direction we're heading.
18:55
Speaker 4: And under those circumstances, what kind of emergency parts would
18:59
Speaker 4: we be looking at? So I think the next you know, this,
19:03
Speaker 4: this in and of itself, this this local election has
19:09
Speaker 4: its interests, but overall it's not going to really make
19:13
Speaker 4: any difference to the direction that we're heading in at
19:15
Speaker 4: the moment.
19:16
Speaker 2: And as a kind of buffer, I believe that Stormer
19:19
Speaker 2: brought in former PM Gordon Brown as part of his defense,
19:23
Speaker 2: as it were, from the onslaught that will no doubt
19:29
Speaker 2: come up, but I think what the ty or forty
19:31
Speaker 2: MP's have asked for him to step down?
19:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, but he still has a massive majority, So you know,
19:39
Speaker 4: the Libor party still has a massive majority in Parliament,
19:41
Speaker 4: so thirty or forty MPs isn't really that significant. We'll see,
19:48
Speaker 4: We'll see whether that develops or not. I mean, you know,
19:51
Speaker 4: I can't remember her name because I've never heard of
19:54
Speaker 4: her before. But there is one libor MP has decided
19:58
Speaker 4: to to throw her hat in the ring to say
20:01
Speaker 4: I want to stand for leadership campaign and she has
20:06
Speaker 4: you know, maybe that is those thirty or forty MPs
20:09
Speaker 4: supporting her. But she's done this not because she's got
20:12
Speaker 4: any expectation of every winning or but but that in
20:16
Speaker 4: the hope that that inspires one or two bigger names
20:19
Speaker 4: to get involved. So so we'll see what happens. But
20:22
Speaker 4: it's that is just theater and and really it's not
20:25
Speaker 4: that it's not that interesting or important in the greater
20:29
Speaker 4: scheme of things.
20:30
Speaker 2: You said earlier that the election at least gives you
20:33
Speaker 2: a little bit of a snapshot into how people are thinking.
20:36
Speaker 2: With the you know, the quote unquote success of reform,
20:41
Speaker 2: what do you think the UK or the population of
20:45
Speaker 2: Britain actually wants.
20:51
Speaker 5: That is a very very good question, because it's I
20:56
Speaker 5: find it hard to see that the population doesn't want
21:04
Speaker 5: what it's told that it wants. Sor I don't know
21:06
Speaker 5: if I've made that make sense, but migration, let's say,
21:11
Speaker 5: if you're consistently told that the reason you're not being
21:18
Speaker 5: paid enough, for the reason that everything is too expensive,
21:21
Speaker 5: the reason that there is violence, the reason that streets
21:25
Speaker 5: are not looked after, even that there are potholes, and
21:28
Speaker 5: all the rest of it. If you're told that the main,
21:31
Speaker 5: if not only, reason for that is migration, then that will,
21:38
Speaker 5: I think, have a terrific effect. And I think that's
21:41
Speaker 5: exactly what reform has in effect capitalized on. Now for
21:46
Speaker 5: those immediately assuming that I'm saying that migration is absolutely
21:51
Speaker 5: brilliant and it's the salvation of this country, That's not
21:55
Speaker 5: what I'm saying. I'm just saying that to pin everything
22:01
Speaker 5: on migration, I mean, even statistically just can't be viable.
22:06
Speaker 5: I mean that's you know, I would ask you, if
22:08
Speaker 5: you think that's the case, then where do you stand
22:11
Speaker 5: on climate change? Because we're told that three percent of
22:15
Speaker 5: emissions are somehow doing more than the remaining ninety seven percent,
22:19
Speaker 5: And I would say, it's sort of, you know, it's similar,
22:22
Speaker 5: Which is not to again not to marginalize the concerns
22:26
Speaker 5: of people who do have a sort of first hand
22:30
Speaker 5: experience of the way in which migration has been both
22:33
Speaker 5: weaponized and indeed had a significant impact on specific areas,
22:39
Speaker 5: and I totally acknowledge that, of course I do. But
22:42
Speaker 5: to say, you know, let's say hypothetically we removed every
22:47
Speaker 5: single migrant and straight away, where do you actually draw
22:51
Speaker 5: the line and who is or isn't British in twenty
22:55
Speaker 5: twenty six. But if you took everyone away, then what
22:59
Speaker 5: are you saying that we'd be left with no kind
23:01
Speaker 5: of economic drama, no crime, no sort of environmental position.
23:07
Speaker 5: I mean, it's you know, I'm afraid to say it,
23:09
Speaker 5: just it doesn't really stack up. So but it's so
23:13
Speaker 5: easy to point to because with photographs and video footage
23:17
Speaker 5: of people coming over the channel in small boats and indeed,
23:21
Speaker 5: you know, totally unverifiable sort of video footages that frankly
23:26
Speaker 5: could be anywhere or any time of such and such
23:30
Speaker 5: sort of odd or inappropriate behavior being seen by people
23:34
Speaker 5: who are obviously from abroad, it's very easy to paint
23:37
Speaker 5: that picture. And again I'm not saying it doesn't happen,
23:41
Speaker 5: it's just are we really saying that it happens to
23:43
Speaker 5: a greater extent, you know, proportionately, much much greater extent
23:47
Speaker 5: for or in within a sort of migrant population and
23:52
Speaker 5: I don't want to. I definitely don't want to oversimplify
23:54
Speaker 5: the issue. But you know what I would say therefore,
23:58
Speaker 5: is what actually falls out that people want a people
24:02
Speaker 5: want to live in a country with a functioning economy.
24:05
Speaker 5: People want to live in a country where roads do
24:07
Speaker 5: get fixed and where people can walk the streets without
24:12
Speaker 5: fear of crime or you know, just untoward incidents happening.
24:18
Speaker 5: But it is not as simple as stopping or changing
24:22
Speaker 5: or undoing the migration policy. And absolutely I would accept
24:27
Speaker 5: that is part of it. And the reason that I
24:29
Speaker 5: accept that's part of it is because the one of
24:31
Speaker 5: the ways in which it's weaponized, of course, is it
24:33
Speaker 5: stirs up tensions, and not necessarily just tensions between people
24:39
Speaker 5: who would regard themselves as British and the sort of
24:43
Speaker 5: incoming migrant population. In actual fact, the division, the more
24:46
Speaker 5: serious division, is between groups of people in the United
24:49
Speaker 5: Kingdom as to what their view supposedly is on this
24:52
Speaker 5: particular issue. That is in a way far more destructive.
24:56
Speaker 5: But then if you're thinking that you want that, then
24:58
Speaker 5: I mean, are you really going to give the let's say,
25:02
Speaker 5: the government a free pass on what they did from
25:05
Speaker 5: the year twenty twenty notwithstanding what's happened with regard to
25:10
Speaker 5: the European Union and what's being done. I mean, there
25:12
Speaker 5: are so many other issues. I'm not sure it can
25:15
Speaker 5: be knocked into sort of one or two sentences as
25:20
Speaker 5: to what people want. And sorry just to go back
25:23
Speaker 5: because on Reform, Whilst I remain critical of Farage and
25:27
Speaker 5: the sort of pied piper quality that he has, which
25:32
Speaker 5: I think is dangerous because I don't think he's necessarily
25:34
Speaker 5: leading people in the right direction, I can totally understand
25:37
Speaker 5: why people would want to vote reform, and so therefore,
25:39
Speaker 5: what I think what falls out of the local election
25:43
Speaker 5: results the fact there has been a more or less
25:45
Speaker 5: switch between that number of seats held by Reform and
25:50
Speaker 5: Labor the indicator, and it's exactly why I would always
25:54
Speaker 5: encourage people to sign petitions. What it does is it
25:56
Speaker 5: demonstrates exactly how dist fied people are with what is happening,
26:01
Speaker 5: and that therefore they do want things to be done differently.
26:04
Speaker 5: And this is Basil Valentine's talking about this exactly on Sunday,
26:09
Speaker 5: this sort of you know, Labor Sunday Friday, Friday's Last
26:12
Speaker 5: Friday's news program, and this is where we always get
26:17
Speaker 5: to with change, the sort of the whole issue around change,
26:20
Speaker 5: you know, labor talking about the plan change. As Mike
26:22
Speaker 5: is always pointing out quite correctly, there is no change.
26:26
Speaker 5: The direction of travel is exactly the same. So when
26:29
Speaker 5: we talk about change, we're talking about change for the good.
26:31
Speaker 5: We're talking about change where common decency and values and
26:36
Speaker 5: economic sense actually happens. But I think also the other
26:40
Speaker 5: great element to it, and this is why it is
26:42
Speaker 5: interesting to look at the sort of local pothole level.
26:45
Speaker 5: Why on Earth does the state you know, we talk
26:47
Speaker 5: about this quite a bit, but why does the state
26:50
Speaker 5: do as much as it does and have as much
26:51
Speaker 5: control over our lives as it does? You know, frankly,
26:54
Speaker 5: it's it should be in my view, a sort of
26:59
Speaker 5: minor bureaucracy where you are paying it to do stuff
27:04
Speaker 5: for you, not the other way around.
27:08
Speaker 4: You see, if we if we look at you know,
27:12
Speaker 4: we everybody are earned some kind of salary, and everybody
27:17
Speaker 4: has you know, roughly eighty percent of that salary stolen
27:20
Speaker 4: by the state through direct and indirect taxes. And the
27:27
Speaker 4: state is supposed to provide services for that. But where
27:31
Speaker 4: is that money going. It's going to Ukraine it's going
27:33
Speaker 4: to dropping bombs in Iran. It's going huge quantities of this.
27:37
Speaker 4: It's going to build the infrastructure that we are concerned
27:42
Speaker 4: about with, you know, the surveillance and the digital ID
27:45
Speaker 4: and the CBDC and all the kinds of policies that
27:49
Speaker 4: we know that we don't want, and in the meantime,
27:54
Speaker 4: the things that we do need aren't being done. And
27:57
Speaker 4: my question, and I think Charles weigh in on this,
28:01
Speaker 4: is is where would we be if the state was
28:06
Speaker 4: taking five percent of our salaries to do a very
28:11
Speaker 4: lightweight job, and we were then able to choose to
28:17
Speaker 4: fix our own potholes and run our own street lights
28:20
Speaker 4: and these kinds of things, and actually have proper local
28:24
Speaker 4: accountability for for the kinds of things that we might
28:28
Speaker 4: want to do on a on a you know, a
28:30
Speaker 4: town or a village or a city or community level.
28:35
Speaker 4: You know we are it shouldn't be beyond the ability
28:38
Speaker 4: of people to organize things at a local level and
28:43
Speaker 4: have responsibility for our own you know, where our own
28:46
Speaker 4: money is spent. But we we hand over so much
28:49
Speaker 4: of our income to this Charles disappeared. I see that
28:56
Speaker 4: to this and today that calls itself the stead and
29:03
Speaker 4: it's you know, so that's that's pretty We've I've mentioned
29:10
Speaker 4: this before.
29:10
Speaker 2: We've got an NGO here called Afreforum. They have about
29:14
Speaker 2: three hundred and twenty thousand members and they are privately
29:21
Speaker 2: funded obviously by their members. And what they do is,
29:26
Speaker 2: amongst many other things, is that they go around into
29:29
Speaker 2: the areas that where they have a presence and take
29:35
Speaker 2: it upon themselves to fix the streets, the podoles. They
29:39
Speaker 2: will even mow lawns that have overgrown, just to neat
29:43
Speaker 2: and up everything and to make things look aesthetically pleasing
29:47
Speaker 2: again and also working. They even went and fixed a
29:51
Speaker 2: dam that had a leak. What they do then is
29:55
Speaker 2: they invoice the government and the government has has no
30:02
Speaker 2: way of turning it down. They have to pay because
30:05
Speaker 2: this is a public service that that it was done
30:07
Speaker 2: on behalf of them.
30:09
Speaker 3: But what's the legal basis for that? Why why does
30:11
Speaker 3: the government have to pay?
30:14
Speaker 2: I think it's constitutional. I mean, you're asking it a
30:17
Speaker 2: very technical question now, Charles, you've you've joined us again.
30:22
Speaker 5: Yeah, what happened there?
30:25
Speaker 4: You know, I think that that would be I would
30:28
Speaker 4: love to see something something like that happening in this country,
30:31
Speaker 4: if if if there was some requirement for the you
30:36
Speaker 4: know people to be paid back.
30:37
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, look to answer your question, it's not.
30:40
Speaker 2: It's not cut and dry like I'm making out to be.
30:42
Speaker 2: They go to court and they fight this and sometimes
30:45
Speaker 2: they they lose, but more often than not they win
30:47
Speaker 2: because they they're doing what the government is constitutionally mandated
30:52
Speaker 2: to do. And our government is is immensely inept. And
30:57
Speaker 2: so if if you don't do anything, you end up
30:59
Speaker 2: with with streets on which you cannot drive a car
31:03
Speaker 2: because the holes are so are so big, and somebody
31:07
Speaker 2: needs to fix it. So these groups, like every form,
31:11
Speaker 2: go and fix this. Basically, they take it upon themselves.
31:14
Speaker 2: They do it on behalf of the government, and then
31:15
Speaker 2: they fight in court to get the government to pay.
31:20
Speaker 4: That's that's exactly the kind of initiative that I think
31:23
Speaker 4: we need to see much more of.
31:26
Speaker 1: But why does it happen yet? Not? There?
31:29
Speaker 2: Is it because we have a very broken infrastructure that
31:31
Speaker 2: people find that we have a very broken infrastructure.
31:35
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, just just driving around the side
31:38
Speaker 4: streets around my house and the state of the I
31:43
Speaker 4: mean even the main road because I live on a
31:46
Speaker 4: sort of reasonably significant street in Plymouth, and you know
31:53
Speaker 4: there's literally grass growing on the sides, on the footpaths,
31:57
Speaker 4: on the sides of the street and so on because
32:00
Speaker 4: there's no maintenance being done. There's there has been no
32:03
Speaker 4: maintenance done for for years. Everything now is completely reactive.
32:09
Speaker 4: So if there is a flood, they'll come and they'll
32:11
Speaker 4: clear that particular drain that has caused that particular flood.
32:15
Speaker 4: If if there's a stench from the from the the sewers,
32:21
Speaker 4: then they'll come and remove that particular big lump of
32:24
Speaker 4: fat that's causing the blockage and so on, so that
32:29
Speaker 4: you know, there's no there's no there's no sort of
32:34
Speaker 4: proactiveness about what they're doing at the moment. It used
32:37
Speaker 4: to be that that you know, once a month there's
32:39
Speaker 4: something there will be at one of those uh lorries
32:46
Speaker 4: would come around it that just sucks all the leaves
32:49
Speaker 4: and so on out of the drains. That doesn't happen
32:52
Speaker 4: anymore until they wait until something has actually gone wrong,
32:56
Speaker 4: and then at some point they might you know, somebody's
32:58
Speaker 4: house gets flooded, and then at some point might comment
33:00
Speaker 4: sort of that problem, I.
33:03
Speaker 1: Might have this wrong.
33:04
Speaker 2: And it's purely based on perception of having traveled to
33:09
Speaker 2: Europe and other countries. But I do get the feeling that,
33:14
Speaker 2: perhaps because we're in a backward country that has an
33:17
Speaker 2: entirely broken system, that it is incumbent on people to
33:21
Speaker 2: do things themselves because they know that the government is
33:24
Speaker 2: useless and won't do it. Do you think the people
33:26
Speaker 2: on your side of the pond are quite lazy on
33:28
Speaker 2: average and and expect the government to do everything.
33:34
Speaker 3: That's a lot of questions. I believe that answer.
33:40
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think I really have any dramas in
33:43
Speaker 5: saying yes I do. I do think that's the case,
33:46
Speaker 5: But I don't mean that necessarily to to sound like
33:50
Speaker 5: I'm accusing everybody of being lazy everybody.
33:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and as a generalization, but no, it is.
33:56
Speaker 5: It is generalization. But no, I think I think the
33:58
Speaker 5: point is and I'm obviously I don't know what happened
34:01
Speaker 5: in my connection, but I sort of I missed something,
34:04
Speaker 5: But I think I know what it was you were
34:05
Speaker 5: talking about. Yes, I think actually where we are on
34:11
Speaker 5: our timeline is probably not far off what you're describing,
34:15
Speaker 5: jerm because exactly like Mike articulates, and we see this,
34:18
Speaker 5: I mean, this is well reported. There is an absolute breakdown,
34:22
Speaker 5: not just in public services, but private services is quite
34:27
Speaker 5: a thing. But what I mean is that private companies
34:30
Speaker 5: are also not conducting the appropriate maintenance and all that
34:35
Speaker 5: sort of thing on their system. So there is a
34:37
Speaker 5: failure in general terms. Of course there are exceptions, Luckily
34:42
Speaker 5: there are exceptions, but in general terms, I think this
34:44
Speaker 5: hasn't you know that we went the United Kingdom absolutely
34:48
Speaker 5: went through a period where in general stuff worked, and
34:53
Speaker 5: the problem with that is that it gives people the
34:56
Speaker 5: sense that that will just be how it how things
35:00
Speaker 5: go on, and of course that's not right. And the
35:04
Speaker 5: problem another problem with that is that everything then tends
35:06
Speaker 5: to break or fail at the same time, which means
35:10
Speaker 5: you then are in a proper planning nightmare of how
35:14
Speaker 5: on earth do you actually resolve all of this at
35:17
Speaker 5: the same time. You can't, but it is it is staggering.
35:20
Speaker 5: I mean, I was driving yesterday on a dual carriageway
35:23
Speaker 5: that's undergoing significant road works, of which a plan to
35:27
Speaker 5: go on till I think the middle of next year,
35:29
Speaker 5: twenty twenty seven, and what I find completely astonishing about
35:34
Speaker 5: it is that at the weekend everyone downs tools. Now
35:39
Speaker 5: I'm not saying I'm not accusing the people that work
35:41
Speaker 5: there during the week of being o of course, so
35:43
Speaker 5: lazy they can't be able to work at the weekend.
35:44
Speaker 5: That's not what I mean. I mean, whoever owns that
35:46
Speaker 5: infrastructure project should be running it round the clock. So
35:50
Speaker 5: exactly like the way in which the National Health Service
35:52
Speaker 5: or the police work. You just you organize a shift
35:55
Speaker 5: pattern that means that you can staff that the entire time.
35:59
Speaker 5: And where it means you have to close the road
36:01
Speaker 5: because you can't allow traffic through, fine, you just tailor
36:05
Speaker 5: that around when you know when the volume of traffic
36:08
Speaker 5: is at its lowest minimal destruct It's so straightforward. Yes,
36:12
Speaker 5: there might be a higher cost to it, but the
36:14
Speaker 5: thing is in delaying consistently. And actually, sorry, I should
36:18
Speaker 5: I should prefix this by saying I don't believe any
36:21
Speaker 5: of this should be happening in the first place. Is
36:22
Speaker 5: absolutely disgrace. What they've done to that bit of countryside
36:26
Speaker 5: that's slightly by the by. But the point is, if
36:29
Speaker 5: you are going to do these things, do them properly
36:31
Speaker 5: for goodness sake. And yeah, you know it's so easy
36:34
Speaker 5: to say, oh, you know, just look at China. Well actually, yeah,
36:38
Speaker 5: just look at China, not just in China, but where
36:40
Speaker 5: China conducts infrastructure projects anywhere else in the world. I mean,
36:44
Speaker 5: they would, they would just laugh at what we're doing.
36:48
Speaker 5: And I'm not just the Chinese, but frankly anybody who's
36:50
Speaker 5: got any sort of grip of the way in which
36:54
Speaker 5: you should manage a system that is already in existence,
36:59
Speaker 5: or indeed manage the delivery of something that isn't yet.
37:02
Speaker 5: And so, yes, lazy is exactly the right word, but
37:06
Speaker 5: not sort of intentionally lazy, just you know, sitting there
37:08
Speaker 5: on the sofa, smoking fags and just yea, well, it's
37:13
Speaker 5: it's sort of that, but it's it's a passive thing.
37:15
Speaker 5: It's I don't think people feel actively entitled. I think
37:17
Speaker 5: people I think there's been a degree of comfort. And
37:20
Speaker 5: of course, actually one thing that we should clarify, of course,
37:23
Speaker 5: Mike talking about earning a salary and the government immediately
37:26
Speaker 5: taking at least twenty percent of it. Actually, of course
37:28
Speaker 5: it's far more because of National Insurance and all the
37:30
Speaker 5: other you know, hidden taxes and so a maatter of fact,
37:33
Speaker 5: you end up with virtually nothing. But of course, you know,
37:35
Speaker 5: and again I have to choose my words very carefully,
37:37
Speaker 5: but the welfare state now supports an absolutely enormous percentage
37:43
Speaker 5: of the population. So even if you do work, and
37:46
Speaker 5: even if you do pay all of your taxes and this,
37:48
Speaker 5: that and the other, there are still a huge number
37:51
Speaker 5: of people needing to be supported by that because they're
37:55
Speaker 5: well for many many reasons. For some people, of course,
38:00
Speaker 5: that is absolutely necessary and justifiable, although I would say
38:06
Speaker 5: very regrettable that these things aren't dealt with that community
38:09
Speaker 5: family level. But sadly, the way that society has gone
38:13
Speaker 5: and we are also isolated and separated, means that I
38:17
Speaker 5: do believe there is a requirement beyond that. But otherwise
38:23
Speaker 5: there is a huge amount of effectively spare labor that
38:27
Speaker 5: is not being utilized, and a part of that will
38:31
Speaker 5: be people who have been brought up in such a
38:34
Speaker 5: way as to consider that that is not part of
38:37
Speaker 5: what they do. They don't enter the labor market, and
38:40
Speaker 5: they can still have an existence that is actually comparable
38:44
Speaker 5: with people who are working and are earning money. Now,
38:47
Speaker 5: that to me is completely and utterly wrong, and I
38:50
Speaker 5: think right, you know, but I would say sort of
38:52
Speaker 5: this some might sound a bit judgmental, but I think
38:54
Speaker 5: wrong for the individuals to feel that that's okay, if
39:00
Speaker 5: you know, if it really isn't entirely necessary.
39:05
Speaker 4: There's another there's another aspect of this as well, Charles,
39:08
Speaker 4: and that is that that people have that people have
39:13
Speaker 4: an expectation that jobs will be made available for them.
39:18
Speaker 4: And this is something that that has you know, been
39:22
Speaker 4: a problem for many decades where you know, we've gone
39:25
Speaker 4: through these periods of high relatively high unemployment and people
39:30
Speaker 4: sitting on benefits waiting for a job to come along
39:35
Speaker 4: or for the economy to improve so that there are
39:38
Speaker 4: more jobs. You know, I I absolutely applaud I mean,
39:45
Speaker 4: just to go back to the Germs organization in South Africa,
39:50
Speaker 4: that's that's doing some of this repairing at a local
39:54
Speaker 4: level and then charging the government for it. Of course,
39:56
Speaker 4: there have been one or two relatively miss cases on
40:01
Speaker 4: YouTube of people doing that in this country, not very many,
40:05
Speaker 4: but but it has. It does exist, but they haven't
40:09
Speaker 4: taken it to the point of trying to recover the
40:12
Speaker 4: cash for that. But there's so many people sitting, you know,
40:16
Speaker 4: particularly young people in this country, sittings described as being
40:20
Speaker 4: economically inactive at the moment, and I don't I'm not
40:25
Speaker 4: seeing any kind of entrepreneurial spirit, any kind of well
40:30
Speaker 4: what am I.
40:31
Speaker 3: Going to do with my life?
40:32
Speaker 4: And and can I can I build a little business
40:35
Speaker 4: or find some way to to generate some income from
40:40
Speaker 4: a self or groups of people getting together and doing this.
40:43
Speaker 4: I'm just not seeing that and and maybe that maybe
40:45
Speaker 4: it is out there. I don't know, but but it's
40:47
Speaker 4: certainly not obvious. If it is, and you know it
40:52
Speaker 4: would be it's depressing in some ways that people are
40:58
Speaker 4: happy just to sit and and be depressed actually themselves
41:03
Speaker 4: and not have any not have any interest in being
41:08
Speaker 4: creative and finding some way to generate some form of
41:14
Speaker 4: business for themselves.
41:15
Speaker 3: Yeah.
41:15
Speaker 2: Just to be fair though, the group that I was
41:17
Speaker 2: talking about, AfriForum, as I said, they've got about three
41:20
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty thousand members, so they.
41:21
Speaker 5: Do have.
41:24
Speaker 1: A resource base from which to work.
41:26
Speaker 2: If you only have one hundred members, you're going to
41:28
Speaker 2: struggle to take on the government, particularly in court. So
41:31
Speaker 2: you do need to have that that infrastructure that has
41:34
Speaker 2: been birthed I suppose by its membership base. So they
41:41
Speaker 2: do have that advantage. But I think many other smaller
41:44
Speaker 2: groups are going to struggle to you know, to successfully
41:47
Speaker 2: fight the government on these on these matters, but I mean,
41:49
Speaker 2: I think the most.
41:51
Speaker 4: But if if there are a group of people's got
41:54
Speaker 4: together and they've they've managed to build a membership best
41:57
Speaker 4: of three hundred and twenty thousand people or whatever it be,
42:00
Speaker 4: that if it can be done there, it can be
42:02
Speaker 4: done here. I mean, yes, that shouldn't that shouldn't be
42:05
Speaker 4: an impossible thing to do. It requires a bit of organization.
42:10
Speaker 2: But just to turn the mirror around. That's not to
42:13
Speaker 2: say that South Africans are not lazy either. I mean,
42:17
Speaker 2: we have what's called townships. What would you what's the
42:19
Speaker 2: equivalent squad a camp, shantytown I think would be the equivalent.
42:25
Speaker 2: They are more often than not fworthy, you know, and
42:28
Speaker 2: they don't look after those areas at all. And one
42:33
Speaker 2: might say that they're lazy and they're waiting for the
42:34
Speaker 2: government to fix everything. But what I'm talking about nonetheless
42:40
Speaker 2: occurs here. It just depends, I suppose where the country
42:43
Speaker 2: you are, but it is it still is in a
42:49
Speaker 2: way a sense of humility when you know that the
42:51
Speaker 2: government is too useless and completely inept, and so you
42:56
Speaker 2: need to do it for yourself. You have to, you
42:58
Speaker 2: need to become self reliant, and in some ways that's
43:01
Speaker 2: a good thing, Mike.
43:05
Speaker 4: I think it's I think it's a brilliant thing because
43:08
Speaker 4: because it builds community, it builds friendships, it builds and
43:12
Speaker 4: everything that that's done under those circumstances is improving everybody's lives.
43:19
Speaker 3: I'd love to see much more of it.
43:21
Speaker 1: But it is also a cultural thing.
43:22
Speaker 3: I mean.
43:24
Speaker 1: Of British people going to do that, well.
43:29
Speaker 4: You know, as far as I can see that, there's
43:30
Speaker 4: a choice. We either we either continue to live in
43:35
Speaker 4: an increasingly collapsing society or we choose to do something
43:39
Speaker 4: about it. You know, we we uh uh, if we refuse,
43:47
Speaker 4: if we get ourselves organized and refuse to pay tax
43:51
Speaker 4: to the central government, that's going to get their attention
43:53
Speaker 4: very quickly. Yeah, I wonder that people, people, we have
43:58
Speaker 4: we have all forgotten where the power actually lies. And
44:03
Speaker 4: it's only it's only a matter of determination and determining
44:07
Speaker 4: that we are going to behave in a particular way
44:10
Speaker 4: and do it together. But you know, once again, you
44:14
Speaker 4: know we have we have had another big march over
44:18
Speaker 4: the weekend, in this case a march against anti Semitism,
44:23
Speaker 4: as it was described in the BBC. It's quite amazing
44:26
Speaker 4: how the amount of BBC coverage this particular march got
44:30
Speaker 4: on Saturday, whereas lots of other marches, pro Palestine marches
44:35
Speaker 4: or pro co you know, the anti COVID marches that
44:39
Speaker 4: happened in twenty twenty one, twenty two, these got zero coverage,
44:44
Speaker 4: you know, pretty much in the in the mainstream press.
44:47
Speaker 4: This one has had a host of coverage. But you
44:52
Speaker 4: know that that issue is one that has been used
44:55
Speaker 4: over the last three or four years to to absolutely
44:58
Speaker 4: divide societ and of course, because we're divided in that way,
45:05
Speaker 4: it becomes difficult to get organized to do things. But
45:10
Speaker 4: it seems to me that it shouldn't, as I say,
45:13
Speaker 4: it shouldn't be beyond us as humans to do that.
45:17
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would agree. Sorry, no, no, I mean all
45:21
Speaker 5: I was going to say. It's similar to what I
45:22
Speaker 5: was saying about the timeline. You know, South Africa I
45:24
Speaker 5: think is just further ahead in terms of the breakdown
45:27
Speaker 5: of services and whatnot. Also, South Africa, because of its
45:31
Speaker 5: size relative to population, has more what we might describe
45:36
Speaker 5: as remote community. Remote communities where people have to have
45:39
Speaker 5: a degree of resilience or sort of reliant self reliance,
45:45
Speaker 5: you know, in general more than people in the United
45:47
Speaker 5: Kingdom do, which is not say there aren't remote communities here.
45:50
Speaker 5: Of course they are, but I think they're interesting to
45:52
Speaker 5: look at because by and large those are the sorts
45:54
Speaker 5: of places where stuff does still get done and it
45:56
Speaker 5: just goes sort of unreported. But now, I mean, I
46:01
Speaker 5: suppose all I was really going to say was slightly
46:03
Speaker 5: sort of anodyne point. But all of this is cyclical.
46:07
Speaker 5: I can't really consider anywhere that would describe itself as
46:12
Speaker 5: being part of the developed or developing world. In other words,
46:17
Speaker 5: somewhere that is kind of in touch with the rest
46:19
Speaker 5: of the world. So I'm not talking about societies in
46:21
Speaker 5: the you know, those that luckily have not been destroyed
46:27
Speaker 5: by everyone else, but say, you know, in the remote
46:30
Speaker 5: parts of the Amazon basin or whatever. But where has
46:36
Speaker 5: not had this sort of thing. You know, we just
46:40
Speaker 5: go through peaks and troughs, and I think the reason
46:45
Speaker 5: that you start to come back out of that is
46:46
Speaker 5: because you'd go beyond that tipping point where enough people
46:50
Speaker 5: have in effect had enough and realized that no longer
46:54
Speaker 5: can they just look to the district currents and or
46:57
Speaker 5: the county currents and or the government to sort this out.
47:00
Speaker 5: They've actually got to get out and do it themselves.
47:03
Speaker 5: And from there that's how you build upwards again. And
47:06
Speaker 5: I think that we are I think I would hope
47:09
Speaker 5: in the United Kingdom we are quite near the bottom. Well,
47:12
Speaker 5: you know, we've been going down a pretty steep downhill
47:16
Speaker 5: slope and I would imagine that we must be pretty
47:19
Speaker 5: close to the bottom of it, which means, yeah, I would.
47:21
Speaker 4: Say, I would say that's absolutely right, Charles. But but
47:24
Speaker 4: it depends on whether there's whether people's whether the frustrations
47:31
Speaker 4: that come along with the collapsing infrastructure around them and
47:34
Speaker 4: so on, are channeled towards further you know, self destruction
47:41
Speaker 4: in the sense of you know, conflict within communities, yes,
47:47
Speaker 4: or whether that can be channeled towards more positive outcome.
47:51
Speaker 4: And I think I think that's where that's where we're
47:54
Speaker 4: in a particularly dangerous situation at the moment, that people
47:57
Speaker 4: are ripe for ygnificant civil unrest and civil conflict, and
48:06
Speaker 4: that would be that would be a disaster. But I
48:09
Speaker 4: think that I think unfortunately a lot of people are
48:13
Speaker 4: at that point, and that's tricky.
48:15
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I totally agree, that's a that's a very
48:18
Speaker 5: very well interjected caveat that that is absolutely very significant.
48:21
Speaker 5: But one would hope that you know, if you do
48:23
Speaker 5: perceive yourself to be on a side, I mean, once
48:26
Speaker 5: you've acknowledged that no one has got any food, water,
48:30
Speaker 5: or electricity, it really is time to think differently. But
48:34
Speaker 5: we just have to hope it doesn't it doesn't come
48:36
Speaker 5: to that. But but I absolutely I acknowledge it. And
48:38
Speaker 5: this is why. Actually that ties in exactly with where
48:41
Speaker 5: we started with, with what is reform doing and where
48:45
Speaker 5: they're going and if they're not going to be if
48:47
Speaker 5: they're not going to be a a divisive force, then
48:53
Speaker 5: then they really need to make a big effort to
48:56
Speaker 5: show that that's not the case. Because the problem with
48:58
Speaker 5: a lot of this is it I wouldn't describe it
49:01
Speaker 5: as being positive politics. I mean, I don't know whether
49:04
Speaker 5: there is really such a thing. But no one really
49:06
Speaker 5: ever has a vision of what we are going to be.
49:09
Speaker 5: It's always what we're not going to be, what we're
49:11
Speaker 5: not going to do, what we don't want, and no
49:14
Speaker 5: one from that really gets a sense of, Okay, so
49:18
Speaker 5: what are we going to do? What actually happened? Yeah,
49:24
Speaker 5: And I think that filters down to the individual level.
49:26
Speaker 5: People are very good at winging, but not so good
49:28
Speaker 5: at coming up with the Okay, well, i'll tell you
49:30
Speaker 5: what I'll do this. That'll sort it out, you know,
49:33
Speaker 5: would you like to help me do this?
49:35
Speaker 2: But that's why I've always found it funny when I've
49:39
Speaker 2: been accused of, you know, shilling for China, et cetera,
49:42
Speaker 2: because in many ways I love the way they do things,
49:44
Speaker 2: but I really appreciate our broken society, well, let me
49:50
Speaker 2: phrase it, our broken government, because it actually compels you
49:55
Speaker 2: to do something. It makes you list because you know
50:01
Speaker 2: that they're not going to come and save either. You
50:03
Speaker 2: know they're not going to come and fix the road.
50:05
Speaker 2: You know that the lights are going to stay off
50:07
Speaker 2: in the streets unless you get some action going, and
50:12
Speaker 2: you need to actually make things work in order for
50:14
Speaker 2: them to work. You can't just sit back and moan,
50:17
Speaker 2: because everything around you will collapse. It's just the nature
50:21
Speaker 2: of living, you know, in a third world country.
50:24
Speaker 1: And I like, I like that.
50:25
Speaker 2: You know, when I see the elections rolling out and
50:30
Speaker 2: we end up with parties that are all you know,
50:33
Speaker 2: working together and merging and all that kind.
50:35
Speaker 1: Of stuff, it leads to gridlock.
50:36
Speaker 2: And I argue that that's a good thing because the
50:39
Speaker 2: gridlocked government means that the government can't really be effective,
50:44
Speaker 2: and I don't want an effective government. Actually, well, I
50:48
Speaker 2: mean that's honest truth, because because an effective government led
50:52
Speaker 2: to mandates during COVID, and any effective government led to
50:57
Speaker 2: fewer mandates and un less top down imposition on society
51:02
Speaker 2: because people just swin nah.
51:04
Speaker 5: Well, I think that's what That's such an interesting element
51:06
Speaker 5: to it, because you know, as if it's not offensive
51:09
Speaker 5: enough to be robbed of all your taxpayer money, that
51:15
Speaker 5: then gets you know, chucked at Ukraine or whatever. Or
51:20
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm afraid to say I'm going to say
51:22
Speaker 5: it the National Health Service, which is a complete disgrace
51:26
Speaker 5: in every respect. That's probably a bit of a big
51:31
Speaker 5: grenade to toss into the conversation at this point, but nonetheless,
51:34
Speaker 5: I think it has to be said because it is
51:37
Speaker 5: one of the absolutely god gantuan problems that no one
51:39
Speaker 5: really wants to confront. But so you've not only got that,
51:42
Speaker 5: you've got the taking all your money and effectively pouring
51:45
Speaker 5: it down the drain, but then the same government having
51:47
Speaker 5: the temerity to say, well, no, you need to go
51:51
Speaker 5: and get a digital identity or now you need to
51:54
Speaker 5: go and shut yourself indoors because a rat might come
51:58
Speaker 5: and bite you or whatever it is. I mean, it's
52:01
Speaker 5: absolutely incredible that people will tolerate being treated like that
52:07
Speaker 5: and and somehow still fork out to be to be
52:12
Speaker 5: treated like I mean, it is amazing. I'm not I'm
52:15
Speaker 5: not saying therefore that it follows that well, if if
52:18
Speaker 5: the roads were were looked after, and suddenly all the
52:20
Speaker 5: potholes disappeared, and and the you know, government got its
52:23
Speaker 5: accounts in order, that then it would be absolutely fine
52:25
Speaker 5: for them to tell you to go and wear a
52:27
Speaker 5: mask and get a digital idea. It wouldn't, It never would,
52:30
Speaker 5: But it's just to when you add that on top
52:33
Speaker 5: of the way in which they are already handling the situation,
52:37
Speaker 5: it is perfectly incredible that people will still sit there
52:40
Speaker 5: and take it.
52:41
Speaker 4: I mean another because fallen for the Sorry, John, We've
52:45
Speaker 4: fallen for the rhetoric that is coming increasingly from governments
52:50
Speaker 4: that the first rule of governments to protect us. And
52:54
Speaker 4: it was interesting Charles had used the term resilience earlier on,
52:58
Speaker 4: and you were speaking about it, of course in terms
53:01
Speaker 4: of personal or community or family or whatever. But of
53:05
Speaker 4: course the term resilience is something which is appearing at
53:08
Speaker 4: the city the national government level, because and it's how
53:15
Speaker 4: resilient is the state. They don't give a damn about
53:18
Speaker 4: the resilience of us as individuals. They give a damn
53:21
Speaker 4: about the resilience of the state, and how capable is
53:24
Speaker 4: the state of dealing with what the state would consider
53:29
Speaker 4: to be emergencies, whether that be some kind of public
53:33
Speaker 4: health emergency or some kind of civil unrest or something
53:38
Speaker 4: which is a threat to the state itself. And I
53:44
Speaker 4: think we need to reorient ourselves in the meanings of
53:49
Speaker 4: some of these words and how these words are being used.
53:53
Speaker 4: I think that's an important thing for us all to
53:55
Speaker 4: do at this point.
53:57
Speaker 2: Just an anecdote, a local exams of an ineffective government.
54:02
Speaker 2: If you get a speeding fine, it's a in China,
54:06
Speaker 2: you have to pay it. You're not really going to
54:08
Speaker 2: get away with it. I don't know how it is
54:10
Speaker 2: in the UK. In South Africa, me and many others
54:13
Speaker 2: that I know haven't paid speeding fines in what fifteen
54:16
Speaker 2: twenty years because the systems are completely broken, and in
54:20
Speaker 2: actual fact, local courts have ruled that we don't have
54:24
Speaker 2: to pay them because the central governance. The central government
54:29
Speaker 2: hasn't been able to effectively apply consistency in the way
54:34
Speaker 2: in which they enforced traffic rules, so they themselves have
54:39
Speaker 2: broken the system and as a result, it's completely ineffective.
54:43
Speaker 2: And that means I'm not saying, you know, you go
54:45
Speaker 2: around racing, But what I mean is is that the
54:48
Speaker 2: system doesn't work. And I don't know about you, but
54:51
Speaker 2: I don't like paying speeding fines.
54:54
Speaker 3: Well, nobody likes paying speeding fines, that's for sure.
54:57
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, But an effective government will mean you will
55:00
Speaker 2: still have to pay even if the government is acting
55:04
Speaker 2: in a bad way. South Africa sounds like a red
55:08
Speaker 2: placed to live. Yeah, and you know it has its
55:13
Speaker 2: ubstinence down. But I mean, but that's the point that
55:17
Speaker 2: I was simply making. Sorry, Charles, I'll did you continue now.
55:19
Speaker 2: I was just saying that I prefer an ineffect of government,
55:22
Speaker 2: so I like could when it's good luck.
55:24
Speaker 5: Well, I think you know, and I have to caveat
55:28
Speaker 5: this very heavily at the start by saying this is
55:30
Speaker 5: not advice, This is not lifestyle advice. This is sort
55:34
Speaker 5: of an amalgam of anecdotal evidence, I suppose. But what
55:38
Speaker 5: I would say, certainly having been on the inside of
55:42
Speaker 5: one of them, the systems that we have to supposedly
55:46
Speaker 5: make stuff happen. And by the way, that that was
55:48
Speaker 5: the police, that they are absolutely creaking at the scenes,
55:54
Speaker 5: and they only really work if people engage with them.
55:59
Speaker 5: And I always found it fascinating to see how many crimes,
56:04
Speaker 5: when an allegation is made or something happens with police,
56:08
Speaker 5: it's referred to as a crime or crime report doesn't
56:10
Speaker 5: actually necessarily mean that a crime has occurred, but for
56:13
Speaker 5: it to be investigated, it's called the crime plort. I
56:16
Speaker 5: was always amazed by how many of those just dropped
56:18
Speaker 5: off the list simply because there was absolutely no engagement
56:21
Speaker 5: from the person who was designated as the suspect. So
56:26
Speaker 5: if I'm talking about something of low grade, so this
56:29
Speaker 5: might concern, as you say, a traffic offense or something,
56:33
Speaker 5: and if the person just never responded to anything effectively,
56:38
Speaker 5: it just timed out and.
56:40
Speaker 4: That was that.
56:41
Speaker 5: So absolutely it required a disproportionate amount of effort to
56:46
Speaker 5: try to push this through, to try to make it happen.
56:48
Speaker 5: And of course the reality is that if you are
56:52
Speaker 5: a response police officers vary by force, but you know,
56:55
Speaker 5: you will have an absolutely enormous cue of jobs which
56:58
Speaker 5: are necessarily prioritized, and it is virtually impossible to keep
57:03
Speaker 5: track of all these things. And that happens exactly on
57:05
Speaker 5: the civil side as well. So whether it be sort
57:08
Speaker 5: of parking, all this, that and the other. If there's
57:11
Speaker 5: no and you know, people do testify to this, or
57:13
Speaker 5: low emission zones or any of these things, if there
57:15
Speaker 5: is no engagement with the system, then it is very
57:19
Speaker 5: very very difficult for them to pursue and to pursue
57:24
Speaker 5: you and know that it's going to be worth their while.
57:26
Speaker 5: And as I say, this is not advice, but I
57:30
Speaker 5: do hear from a number of people that this is
57:32
Speaker 5: this is absolutely the way of it. And again, you know,
57:36
Speaker 5: to go back to the police, the idea that a
57:40
Speaker 5: police force can actually prevent something from happening if enough
57:46
Speaker 5: people are determined to do it is a face. It's
57:49
Speaker 5: absolutely fast. And I'm not I'm not talking I am
57:51
Speaker 5: really not talking about anything sort of bad happening. You know,
57:57
Speaker 5: people deciding or mass to behave badly. I just mean
58:00
Speaker 5: to behave in a way that at the moment the
58:02
Speaker 5: government doesn't seem to necessarily want, you know, and that
58:06
Speaker 5: the the enforcement tools that they're just at their disposal
58:09
Speaker 5: are are really figments of media portrayal and the imagination.
58:14
Speaker 5: It doesn't it doesn't actually stack up. But the problem
58:16
Speaker 5: is that we are as a society we have it's
58:19
Speaker 5: part of this sort of comfort thing, I think in
58:23
Speaker 5: considering that everything is as it's supposed to be, and
58:25
Speaker 5: it's all these systems work and they're all there. It's
58:27
Speaker 5: a complete illusion. But what it has engendered is is
58:30
Speaker 5: an incredibly high degree of compliance. Yes, you needs to change, Yeah,
58:36
Speaker 5: that only needs to change very very slightly for the
58:39
Speaker 5: picture to look completely and utterly.
58:41
Speaker 1: Different, exactly.
58:42
Speaker 5: And that is what I always hold fast to, and
58:45
Speaker 5: I find, you know, my own personal experiences having seen
58:49
Speaker 5: you know, inside what in my case, particularly in the
58:51
Speaker 5: police and the armed forces, to see the point beyond
58:54
Speaker 5: which the stretch is no longer possible. People always talk
58:58
Speaker 5: it up and this is this is only really ever
59:00
Speaker 5: with sort of overseas deployments. Oh you know, we'll just
59:03
Speaker 5: make do, we'll just grab a kit and go and
59:04
Speaker 5: all be all right. And okay, it's never always all right.
59:07
Speaker 5: But but but that can be said, perhaps if you're
59:11
Speaker 5: considering some sort of ill thought out foreign intervention, terrible idea,
59:17
Speaker 5: shouldn't happen, should never really have happened. But I'm talking
59:21
Speaker 5: about stuff that's going on in this country. When you
59:23
Speaker 5: consider the numbers of people involved versus the population, it's
59:28
Speaker 5: just it's you know, it's no contest, and really all
59:30
Speaker 5: that needs to change just a little bit of a
59:32
Speaker 5: swing towards people who just want to do stuff for
59:36
Speaker 5: themselves and to get on with that. And there's not
59:40
Speaker 5: really an obstacle in that path. I don't see just
59:43
Speaker 5: quickly what happens here. It's related very much to what
59:47
Speaker 5: you just said, are they One of the local courts
59:50
Speaker 5: found that unless you physically sign and accept the traffic
59:55
Speaker 5: violation from the police officer, it's largely going to be
59:59
Speaker 5: considered oland void because there's a lot of corruption within
1:00:02
Speaker 5: the police. And as a result, the court found that
1:00:05
Speaker 5: it would be unjust for police to issue fines via
1:00:11
Speaker 5: email or SMS or whatever, because you can simply do
1:00:14
Speaker 5: that in the corrupt process, and they said, no, you
1:00:16
Speaker 5: need to physically sign for it, and if nothing happens
1:00:20
Speaker 5: within a i don't know, two years or something, it
1:00:22
Speaker 5: just simply falls away. And that that's a great thing
1:00:25
Speaker 5: because It shows how broken the system is and I
1:00:28
Speaker 5: like that.
1:00:30
Speaker 1: Anyway. Okay, I see we are out of time. Mike Charles,
1:00:35
Speaker 1: it's been a pleasure. I'll catch up with you next week.
1:00:38
Speaker 5: Thank you.
1:00:39
Speaker 3: Thanks