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Why Indie Podcasters Don't Need to Play by Big Media's Rules · Let's Talk Podcasts from Feminist Podcasters Collective

• Becky Mollenkamp (00:00) Hello. Welcome back to our series of interviews with our members of the Feminist Podcasters Collective. Today I'm joined with joined by Amy Stone, host of Imperfect Adulting, the art of imperfect adulting. And I have to apologize because I'm late and it's I feel flustered because I messed up and I hate when I do that. But we're gonna reset into the room. Becky Mollenkamp (00:20) And get started and talk about your podcasting journey, why you podcast and what your show's about and that kind of thing. But if you don't mind, start off by just saying why you podcast, the reason you podcast. Amy Stone (00:32) That's a super fun question. the people in the audience obviously don't know that you're late. So that's totally fine. the reason they do know. All right, so maybe. So, well, they do now, but they wouldn't have known if you didn't tell them. so the reason I podcast is I mean, it can be a soundbite. I podcast to share stories of lived experience of women to document this library of information. Becky Mollenkamp (00:40) They do now. No, they do now. Becky Mollenkamp (00:47) I know, I know. Amy Stone (01:02) To uplift and give visibility and voice to things that I think are important. On the other hand, the personal backstory of why I podcast and make newsletters and YouTube channels is that I realize now in my own lived experience that if you dropped me, Amy, off into an abandoned desert island where I was the only person there with palm trees and coconuts, I would get up in the morning. Amy Stone (01:32) I would make myself some coffee in the imaginary kitchen. I would move my body for an hour. I would interview the palm trees. I'd put all that together in a story and deliver it to the coconuts. This is a skill that I have repeated in every job and every role, even when it didn't match what was asked of me. And so there's a part of why do I do this that is sort of, you know, card-coded into the fabric of what I do as a person. Amy Stone (01:59) I have done it for myself. I have done it for people I've worked with, I have tried to fit other businesses in and around it. And a couple of years ago I was like, all right, that now that I see this pattern, let me just roll with it and lean into doing as much of this as I can and see what happens. Becky Mollenkamp (02:16) You're a storyteller. Amy Stone (02:18) Yeah, I'm a storyteller. And yeah, exactly. That's it, it's and you know, people do say that a lot of times. and I think that it's a a factual thing that people do. One of the things that I'm really leaning into and working on is in an open platform of media distribution like we exist in today, the the hard part is not actually telling the stories. Amy Stone (02:46) the hard part is finding a way to reach the audience. Becky Mollenkamp (02:49) Mm-hmm, isn't that the truth? And we could talk some about that because I think that could be interesting. It makes me think a little bit of Tom Hanks on his deserted island with Wilson and that that would have been you. But also makes me think about like for all of humanity, we've had the storytellers, we've had the people who that was their job around the campfire or wherever it was, the on the rocker on the front porch. They were the ones Becky Mollenkamp (03:10) Telling the stories, and that was a valued skill set. It was something that we th that was important because it helped us understand ourselves as humans. It was meaning making. It was, it was community building. Like there's a lot inside of that that I think we often undersell now. And so I love that you're pointing out that it you're not doing it for, I mean, there's a lot of other reasons, but part of it is just that's an important skill and then it's something that we should honor in people. Like I love that. Amy Stone (03:37) Yeah. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (03:38) Thank you for bringing that up. So then what is your background? Obviously, you didn't start your career as a podcaster. What's your background? What brought you to podcasting? Amy Stone (03:47) So I've been a journalist since I was knee high to a grasshopper. my father was in media as he was in television. He was a technical director, so I grew up in that. I worked in radio when I was in the in the 80s as like an intern. And I used to get pocket money by going down and ferrying, being a courier moving tapes between recording studios. I would just stop by and be like, hey, do you have anything? And they would pay me out of petty cash. Amy Stone (04:17) So there's a part of my history, which is that I've always done this and it's my professional training. But the second part of that is though that in my early 20s, with a, you know, a mint freshly minted journalism degree, I was not able to get a job that allowed me to pay all of my bills at the same time that I got them by working for a mainstream publication. And so I did jump ship. Amy Stone (04:43) And go and work for a company, a software company using words and pictures and it organizational skills. Like so, one of the things that one of the skills that I didn't know was a skill from training is like being able to take that big editorial content production calendar and make things. I have reapplied with everything from trade shows to dinner calendars and sport calendars and PTA meetings and now my own production schedule. Becky Mollenkamp (05:11) Yeah. Well, I am a journalism school kiddo too, who also is not working at a big media house. And there's a reason we do again, going back to that undervaluing storytellers, we clearly don't put enough value on the people who are have a way with words. And and now in this AI age, it's like, AI can just do it. And you and I know that's just not true. And it's sad. So I understand where you're, you know, that Amy Stone (05:13) I know. Becky Mollenkamp (05:38) Journey feels very familiar. I familiar to a lot of people with journalism degrees. Amy Stone (05:43) Yeah, I mean, I will say like that I'm not very jaded about it. because I think that I've sat through so many. So I'm 52, I've got two stepkids and two kids, a lot of kids. I've sat through probably a hundred conversations where people are like, Hey, you know, you won't use the skills that you learn in school. And I was I'd sit in the room and I'd be No, I use these skills all day long. and I've used them everywhere I was, how to tell. Amy Stone (06:11) If a story is true, how to research what's actually going on, how to write a sentence so that people can understand it, how to craft a message so that it's delivered, how to keep my you know, all of those things, right? I didn't use them for, you know, the newspapers the way I thought I did. I used them for a company, and then I use them for myself. And I think that it's easy to use the change in how information flows as a scapegoat for like Amy Stone (06:41) The ills in our life and the world, it doesn't do me any good to focus on that, which is the way I veer away from it. I think that we live in a uniquely amazing time where there is nothing in the way of anybody from delivering a message. You and I are live streaming from different parts of the country to whoever might be there. There's nothing in the way, right? That's like unbelievable. Like it's it's literally to me. Amy Stone (07:09) Unbelievable if I sit down and try and map my ra brain around it. And the shift then is, and the power here is, I think, to think of it as a question to be answered and not a problem to beat up, is that you and I both were raised where the profit structure and the revenue structure was that somebody should pay us for this. and that Amy Stone (07:35) doesn't work anymore. The media companies have all gone out of business. This is a past tense expression. Like if you think back to the movie season when you and I were kids, we're we're July 4th, there's there's two movies that have been released all summer. You know, like where is it? They used to be every weekend. A blockbuster was released, right? Not happening. Doesn't happen. I stream things that were released years ago. The way we consume information has shifted past tense. So then the question becomes Becky Mollenkamp (07:52) Mm-hmm. Amy Stone (08:04) How do I, how do I build something that turns into what I need? Like how do I build a life around my skill set? I think that it's interesting to go super back far in time, right? Like, so you know, today we pay teachers to stand up and teach in public and private schools. I my understanding of like really old history is that professors used to go and stand in public squares and just sort of shout until somebody hopefully paid them. Amy Stone (08:31) This is not the first change that we've had in how these cycles work. Is it hard? Yes. Is it, you know, disappointing? Sure. But for me, and maybe I'm just too stupidly stoic about it, it it's not always helpful for me to sit around and say, man, this sucks because nobody has given me a job. Nobody would give me, I mean, I was like not able to pay all my bills when I was like freelancing in my twenties. Like and neither was out of the people who graduated with me, I think only two of them. Amy Stone (09:01) made money for very long, working for standard journalism publications at all. We all went in different directions. And so, you know, and that's thirty years ago. That's thirty years ago. Becky Mollenkamp (09:11) Yeah. believe me, I know. I mean, I when I graduated the first job I got at the Carmel Pine Cone, which is not on my resume because it lasted three weeks, but now I'm far enough into my career I don't care anymore. I'll talk about it. But I graduated. Now, if anybody knows anything about Carmel by the Sea, Clint Eastwood was famously the mayor for a while. Yeah, it's a ridiculously expensive part of the world. And right out of college, fresh face Becky was offered a job making $13,000. And yes. Amy Stone (09:26) Yeah, I would love to live there. Becky Mollenkamp (09:38) This was a long time ago, but I promise you $13,000 was never enough money to live anywhere near Carmel. I had to live in Salinas, which was is the garlic capital of the world and smell garlic, which is fine. but with three roommates, Ed still couldn't afford it. And then when I got there, they said, and by the way, you've been here three weeks. Guess what? We're laying off the other two reporters, and now you're gonna do all their jobs and you're not getting a raise. I was like, I'm now gonna do the work of three people. Amy Stone (09:43) No. Amy Stone (09:59) Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (10:03) For $13,000, this is a hell no. And I remember when I quit, he said, if you ever think you're gonna find a better job in journalism, then you need to find a new career. And he was not entirely wrong, although I do fault him in many ways, because I did actually turn around and get a much better job right away in California at na in Napa, where I could actually live. It was not great. I mean, it wasn't like I was making real money, but I did I it I there are better jobs. However, Amy Stone (10:13) That's right. Amy Stone (10:28) Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (10:28) At the heart of what he was saying, I think is that jaded old man who's just like, This career will beat you down and if you think that you're gonna be living a glamorous life, if you think you're gonna live in Carmel as a reporter, that's just never gonna happen. And he's right about that. So Amy Stone (10:41) He probably was saying that, but the, you know, the the bigger picture of it is that the revenue plan and the way you build a media company and hire people to do that, that that has stopped working a long time ago. And pre-internet, exactly. But what hasn't changed, what hasn't changed, that is one of the things that makes this really interesting, is that the data is still that people don't want, people value information and stories and news. Becky Mollenkamp (10:54) Well and this was pre internet, I will say, so it was a different world, but Amy Stone (11:12) They don't like to pay for it, is is one of the things. Like, even if they're paying for it in other ways. Like, so you'll pay for cable TV or streaming services, but there's still like I th it's something like 80% of people still do not want to pay for anything behind a paywall. And so, I mean, I'm not that is a legitimate structural challenge for people creating and disseminating information. If no, yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (11:17) Exactly. I mean as soon as they come up against the paywall. Becky Mollenkamp (11:35) Yeah. And it's a major change. Let's talk about with podcasting then, because I think this is super interesting and we only have so much time and I want to make sure I honor your time as much as I've already dishonored it. So I wanna be like, let's have this conversation. Cause you of all of our members, I think, are all first of all, you have your finger on the pulse and you're Amy Stone (11:39) Yes. Amy Stone (11:45) I don't Becky Mollenkamp (11:54) Because I think that's just how your brain's wired. It's the journalism part of you. And this is the part where your brain gets excited and you like, you love a good study, you love research, you love like data, you love looking at trends. You're always sort of giving us like, hey, here's a new thing that just came out, and here's what I'm seeing, and here's what I'm hearing, what I'm thinking about this thing. And so, excuse me, because of all of that, I also think you're thinking about your podcast differently than a lot of our folks are. Because most of the people in podcast collective are business owners who have a service they provide, coaching, Amy Stone (11:56) Yes, yeah. Amy Stone (12:17) Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (12:23) Podcast production, you know, whatever, a million different things. And the podcast is sort of seen as a part of their sales funnel, but not necessarily a lead gen maybe, or maybe a nurturing part of that seek of that funnel, but not so much a like the podcast is gonna make me money. That said, there's no one in the community who would be like, no, please don't give me money. They would take the money, right? But that's not their primary driver. You're looking at podcasting differently. So I would love to hear a little bit about that because I think that will inform then what we talk about as we talk about like. Becky Mollenkamp (12:53) What are the what is the possibility? What is the future? What could happen for monetizing? Amy Stone (12:58) So that's yes, no, that's spot on. It is a piece of my personality that I've always been interested in the the business of media and entertainment. lots of people are interested in pop culture, like what the celebrities are doing. And I've always been, and maybe it's because you know, this was you know, the dinner time table at my house. I was like, I was like, who's hiring? What's in variety? Like, what are they what are the unions doing? and so I just watch. Amy Stone (13:24) I just watch and I'm aware of what it is. I did grow up in a, you know, an environment where like it was like you get up, you read your three newspapers, you turn on the TV, you know the news, and then you start your day. and so that's a piece of who I am for sure, spot on. I post things in your community. I don't even know if people care half the time, but it's like it does interest me. so yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (13:43) Yeah. Amy Stone (13:45) I would say I have no actual data for this, but there are three million known active podcasts according to Raphonic. There's 115 million YouTube channels according to Google active, right? Posting content. the majority of people who are creating content in these things, I believe, are doing what you're talking about, which is called branded podcasts, is which is where somebody has a service or a product and they create the show as a part of their nurture and sales cycle. And the idea is that. Amy Stone (14:15) This is part of what grows their business and turns people from prospects into customers and customers into raving fans. It can be highly effective. and I've done this in the past. before I launched this last show, though, I was wrapping up that part of a business that I was doing because it wasn't really growing anymore and I was ready to move on to the next thing. and so I wanted to start a show that was forward-facing mass market. Amy Stone (14:43) And see whether or not somebody who did not match the profile of anybody who grow anything. I'm not a Hollywood celebrity, I've never been on reality TV. I'm fifty-two, not twenty-one. I've never been confused with a supermodel. and see what would be possible on that. I had big dreams. Amy Stone (15:05) wonderful, wonderful things. Definitely going against the grain for a lot of the things that people give with advice. my show is not a niche topic. I talk to women about transformation and change. Everybody has dozens of these stories, right? And and so there's it's not, you know, redheads who live in, you know, one county in Georgia and own dogs that need training, right? So that's Amy Stone (15:31) Contrary to the advice that is given to most business owners. So this is my idea. I wanted to do it. I wanted to grow it and have it be this huge thing. So, and here's the mixed bag of success, right? It has grown enormously. it is a top 3% global podcast, which still puts it in a teeny, teeny, tiny show category. and so I'm still working on the portion of Amy Stone (15:58) How do you turn this into something that is a viable business? I think it's a question that is unlikely. I don't know that a singular show like the one I've built maybe can be a standalone business. I'm unbelievably privileged that I've had the financial runway to be able to run this experiment the way I have. but the same way, there's nothing in the way of me Amy Stone (16:24) putting a media product in the world. There's actually nothing in the way of me building a sponsor book, filling that up and making money, other than the fact that truthfully in my training, I was always editorial and advertising was down the block or on the other side of the building. Becky Mollenkamp (16:38) Yeah. For anyone who doesn't know that about journalism, that back in the day, I think a lot is I know because towards the end of my journalism career, I was watching the difference, but it used to be very very strong wall between these two. There was news, there was there was the editorial side, right? And then there's the advertising side, and there was a wall between, and it was like these two do not influence each other. That wall has been crumbled completely now, and advertorial is just what it is. And Amy Stone (17:02) Yeah. Yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (17:04) but yeah, it is hard sometimes when you come from that background because like you, I understand that. And I love creating content. I love thinking thinking strategically about content. I love to, you know, I I love all of the thoughts around what does it mean to tell great stories and how and what are the possibilities here? The part that's trickier is the now how do I make this appealing to advertisers or to sponsors, or what what what's possible on how to get money for this? And you've been thinking though about it. Amy Stone (17:31) So I think, yeah, yeah, because I think it's very appealing to advertisers. I think that there is, you know, so right now in media we talk about motes, right? There's a big moat between an indie creator and an industry creator who's got an audience and came from a network. Anderson Cooper, Don Lemon, Katie Kirk. and me. That's the moat. It's very big. there's also a moat. Becky Mollenkamp (17:36) Yeah. Amy Stone (17:59) Though specific to podcasting, in that I think that if you were to pull businesses, I don't know how you do this, in the United States of America, in the world, and say, Hey, would you like to reach a targeted group of consumers? They would say with a margin of error of 100%, 100% of them would be like, Yes. and yet when you listen to programming on podcasts and look on YouTube. Amy Stone (18:25) It is the same four companies advertising on every single show. Like I never need I'm gonna please don't hate me, BetterHelp, but I never need to hear another BetterHelp ad in my life. you would think Quince, chewy, like it's all the same. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's a gap. That's a gap. And Becky Mollenkamp (18:27) Mm-hmm. Becky Mollenkamp (18:37) I could I I probably will never buy quints and not because I'm sure they're not great, but I'm just so tired of it. Right, we go through these cycles with the advertisers, yeah. Amy Stone (18:51) You know, that's a that's a gap that should be put together. And I it's one of these weird things. I'm I don't I'm not saying I'm the person to figure this out, but if instead of using technology to, you know, make personalized videos for you know me dressed up in like imaginary things, if it was you if that technology the information is i if it's used to put the information together that it's like, hey, shoe company in Boise, Idaho wants to advertise to Boise, Idaho music therapist. Amy Stone (19:21) audience and connect those people. That would be, that would be so beneficial because people, people sometimes say that they don't like advertising or they don't enjoy it. And I think that's a misdirect of the situation. And this story that I always share with people is like when you walk into a grocery store and somebody says, hey, would you like to know the specials on produce? You might be like, yes, thank you, right? It is helpful to know what is available to purchase. Becky Mollenkamp (19:47) Mm-hmm. Amy Stone (19:49) If you walk into a grocery store and somebody is like, hey, can I sell you a timeshare? You're like, because it doesn't fit. And it's the disconnect of the situation that people that I is my guest that really turns people off. And I resonate with that. Like, I do not like when somebody knocks on your door and is like, Do you want to buy, you know, a time, you know, the magazines, you're like, I was sitting down to meditate, go away. Like, but it is, it is interesting that we we do have this disconnect. And I think that. Amy Stone (20:17) If you shift it and you think of the storytelling of like, you know, what what are the things that are actually helpful? So, like one of the things I do in my show at the end of each episode is I ask for recommendations from the person who is a guest about things that they are watching and listening and using in their life. And the reason I do that is because even though we all have so much information at our fingertips, the value of personal recommendations. Amy Stone (20:46) for, you know, things to do, things to enjoy, things to try, that that's still really important. You know, like how many times you see people post online? It's like, hey, I need a recommendation for what show to watch next. Becky Mollenkamp (20:59) That's how I fill my Netflix cue every time, right? And and I and I'm not alone in that. And and I do I need another tote? No, but if I see somebody I know in a group I like and they're talking about this tote and how it's solved all their problems, I don't I know it's not gonna solve my problems and I know I don't need it and I'll still probably buy it, right? Amy Stone (21:03) Yes. Right. Amy Stone (21:17) And so right. And specific to the market that you talk to in the feminist podcast collective, so I'll just shout this out. One of the parts of this that amazes me right now in 2026, my whole life, people have told me that women are the shopping engine that moves the country forward. I don't have any industry knowledge to know what that really means, but apparently we buy things at every age point in our life. We're the shoppers. And still today. Amy Stone (21:46) There's not a good connection, like there's there's there's not a good match for the ads that are run to actually be speaking to the women who are consuming programming. And it is my belief that that only changes when women step full force into the advertising revenue section of media, because men have had 150 years. Amy Stone (22:08) to try and advertise to women and they're running Chewy ads and better help ads and and all of those things. The it it just hasn't happened yet. So, you know. Becky Mollenkamp (22:18) Well there's so much you said there, hold on, I'm gonna shut my door so everybody watching gets to see this Becky Mollenkamp (22:25) It's somewhere and it's chaos in my house. Anyway, I agree with you and you've said a couple of things I think are really important. One, one of the reasons that we need voices it in podcasting that are not white men, and more power to you, white men, whatever. It's because you're right. If I listen to a show hosted by white men, that is most often when I'm hearing all the kind of stuff that is just so not useful to me, right? And it and it's not it there's a for a whole host of reasons. Amy Stone (22:49) Yes. Amy Stone (22:51) It's not even, I just want to, I just want to dial back on that. I want to push on that a little tiny bit because it's not just hosted by white men. One of the things I call this the gosh, I'm spacing on her name. I call this, I think, who's the host of entertainment tonight? Lisa Hartman. Anyway. the beware of the female host who is a spokesperson for a company run by men. Because Becky Mollenkamp (23:05) my gosh, I don't know. Amy Stone (23:17) You know, so the reason I bring this up, Entertainment Tonight was a pop show in the 80s and 90s, and part of and the host was this beautiful, wonderful, talented woman. Part of her contract was that she always had to wear heels, she always had to wear a skirt, and her desk was transparent so you could see her legs, right? So it was absolutely Becky Mollenkamp (23:30) yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (23:33) Clear. Yeah. Amy Stone (23:39) A, you know, it was a very, it was a very, and this is the environment I grew up in. I I know this story, and it wasn't taught to me as if there was anything wrong. It was taught to me in like, hey, know this, so that you can write, right? This is right, exact right. So I want to be just very clear about that. And so even if there's a host that's a woman, the organization could be run by men. And one of the things that old Amy realizes that young Amy did not realize is that there's a point where, you know. Becky Mollenkamp (23:49) This is her asset. Amy Stone (24:09) you you don't understand the experience that you haven't had. Even the most aware, righteous, loving, wonderful man does not have lived experience as a woman. There's nuances to that story with gender and all the things like that, but I just mean on face value, right? If you've never eaten a vegetable, you don't know what it tastes like. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And so no matter how hard Becky Mollenkamp (24:31) You've never lived as a woman, you don't know what it means to live as a woman. Amy Stone (24:38) so so they make decisions differently. They organize things differently. One of the things that that influences to choice. So th you the show If Books Could Kill? Becky Mollenkamp (24:48) I've heard it. Amy Stone (24:50) Thanks, that one. So there's that one, and there's also there's a show about gurus, right? Anyway, both wonderful things. Very educated, nice teams of people, but men, all men that do the show. They were doing a show, they were, I think it's gurus, actually, not if books could kill. So anyway, sorry, so they were doing this thing about Oprah and as and her as an expert. And I it's not my job to defend Oprah, and that's not the point. What was fascinating though was listening to them talk about their experience with Oprah as men. Amy Stone (25:18) Was just so different from my experience growing up seeing Oprah on TV. And I again, I'm not defending Oprah or repping her or anything like that. But when I was a kid watching Oprah, even then I knew I was like, she is an example of something that should not have been on TV. She was a black woman who was not a hundred pounds and raging success. And so, and they were doing all these things. And I was like, my God, they just they're unaware. Becky Mollenkamp (25:36) Yeah, like women. Mm-hmm. Amy Stone (25:46) Of this because they have a different experience. And they're so unaware that there's no way that they could ever become aware. And that's sort of when I began to think I was like, you what, not to be like overly righteous or militant about this, but there's a part of this reality right now where the gatekeepers are gone, where if if we don't build some infrastructure and step into some of the roles creating opportunity, it will just reform in the same old things. Becky Mollenkamp (26:11) Yeah. Well, and and yes, so you're for sure. And what I was gonna say was that I think we need more not white men hosting podcasts for the reason that our understanding when you're outside of that privilege is very different. Your lived experience is different, and you know things that those folks can't know about what your audience, especially if your audience reflects you. Amy Stone (26:20) Mm-hmm. Becky Mollenkamp (26:39) What they want and what they need. And so that is we need those folks. We need those places for ourselves to be seen and heard and feel represented. And so that, but then we also need people on the other side of that equation to the other part of what you said earlier that was interesting to me was like that Idaho or wherever you said it was example of like trying to these smaller niche things, is that the reason that we don't see those kinds of advertising is because people are always thinking in scale. Amy Stone (26:48) Mm-hmm. Amy Stone (27:00) Yes. Amy Stone (27:09) Yes, yes. Becky Mollenkamp (27:09) Right. How I gotta sell a gazillion widgets and so I gotta reach a mass audience. And so I can't be worried about, you know, black, fat women who whatever are looking for a swimsuit and blah blah blah. You know, like that is too narrow. So I'm not gonna speak to them. But what they don't realize is if you have like as a fat black white or flat fat white woman, I'll say instead, so that I'm not speaking to somebody I don't have that experience. Becky Mollenkamp (27:35) If I talk about a swimsuit that I say, you guys, I actually felt really good going to the pool in this. Like it for all these reasons, it made my body feel great. I wasn't judging myself. I wasn't worried about I could just go and swim and have a great time. That is gonna sell more swimsuits than e it it'll be small, it'll be fewer people you're reaching, but you're actually gonna sell at a much higher percentage than you will having Joe Rogan tell me about swimsuits. Like I'm not buying a swimsuit from Joe Rogan. It's just never gonna happen. Amy Stone (28:02) I mean somebody will. Somebody will. But yeah. Becky Mollenkamp (28:04) Somebody will for sure. But I think the difference is important. And so we need both of those pieces in place. We have to have the people who are understanding that. And that's sort of outside of our control. But what we can do is one, try to help educate them about why that's important. And two, have the place available so that as some of these folks start to realize that, hey, this mass market thing doesn't work when we don't live in a mass market world anymore. Right. Because I think that's what you're speaking to. Amy Stone (28:27) See, I think that it is, except I sort of am outside the box, right? I don't think that I don't think that I need to convince the advertising industry to do something different. I just think that we need to do things differently. Like they're just gonna keep doing the things they're doing. I think that, you know, when you think about the internet and podcasting and YouTube and I don't know. I mean, you can put the social platforms in there also, but as open platforms, right? We have Becky Mollenkamp (28:31) Okay, I'd love to hear it. Becky Mollenkamp (28:37) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Amy Stone (28:56) We have evidence that for in the last 20 years, right, people with very specific ideals and living situations have been able via tools on the internet to find other people who represent them and and find supportive communities and collaborations. And I mostly mean in significantly underrepresented identities, right? So like there are many people my age and older, so 50 and older, who felt very isolated in their own. Becky Mollenkamp (29:18) Mm-hmm. Amy Stone (29:26) Sexuality, their gender identity. They thought they were the only people on the planet. And then when the internet came along, they were able to discover people in other states, in other cities, in other countries who were like them. And we have seen global shift because of this awareness of being able to connect these things. They didn't do that by telling the world that they needed to change the way we connect. They just were out there and they just did it. And it can't be undone. Amy Stone (29:56) And so, and so I don't know what the future will hold, but I've been using these two quotes a lot in the last month or so. One is Lily Tamlin, comedian, and she says she's like, I was always waiting for somebody to do something, and then I realized I am somebody, right? And the other one is if you want to have community, you have to be community. Becky Mollenkamp (30:23) Mm-hmm. Amy Stone (30:23) Sometimes, and I think that I really do think that every example of systemic change, there is a moment where people stop talking about where other people what other people need to do, and people just start kind of doing it. And often it's through absolute necessity. So I don't want to like undercurrent this, but you know, there is that moment where you just have to do the thing that needs to be done. And if you hit it at the right time and place, then change begins to happen. Amy Stone (30:53) And so if I can find a way to work with sponsors who are wanting my audience and and do that, then I become an example. If I can teach somebody else, then they can do it. And and I don't necessarily need Ogilvian Mathers to change the way they or to get or Edison Research or you know, true live media to to change how they do things. I just need Amy Stone (31:19) To keep working on it where I'm doing and talking to people like you and the other people I know and encourage them to do that. Cause you know from podcasting and independent media that the way we have taught people to do this is build your show and then sell it. And that's that's fine, right? There's a lot to be said for validating a concept and and figuring out if you have an audience. But I think that if we shift the topic. Amy Stone (31:43) in independent media a little bit and teach people instead, and I think that Gen Z knows this, right? Like so they are ahead of us with this, that you have to have a a a market strategy from the word go. I think that that is one of the changes that happens. Becky Mollenkamp (31:58) Mm-hmm. So to wrap this up then, because I want to focus on what all this means in the practical sense for you as you're moving forward with your podcast. Cause now you've been doing it for a year. Yeah, a year and a half. So what are you what's all of this all these big sort of concepts and things you're thinking about? What is it looking like for you on the like day-to-day decisions you're making about your podcast and what you're thinking moving forward as far as Amy Stone (32:10) It's a year and a half. It's a year and a half. Becky Mollenkamp (32:25) Вот I hope I can create here. Вот I hope I can build financially with this. Amy Stone (32:30) So, you know, there's truth in the the reality that to produce amazing things with high quality and high, you know, volume, you really need money and and team, right? And I am a solo. So the reality of what I'm doing right now, I just actually it it will go live on my channels in a couple days, is that I have made adjustments to work during my days in trying to build up to learn. Amy Stone (32:58) Because I didn't go to the advertising classes to learn and sell and talk about like actually bringing sponsors on to my show. So that's a mental shift for me. Instead of waiting for the door to come knock, knock, knocking. like, hey, welcome, you know, drop into the DMs. We'd love to partner with you, learning that I might actually have to start that process and what it means to be that and and see whether or not I can do it. So that's, I mean, that's the real spot about where I am. Amy Stone (33:26) The other thing that I'm really doing a lot of is talking to people, you know, who are female creators and really leaning into how do we collaborate together to lift each other's voices? because right now, in my experience in the world, there's a whole lot of us out there just sort of shouting into the void. It's one of those weird things where it's like there's so many of us, like if we just work together. Becky Mollenkamp (33:39) huh. Amy Stone (33:52) Wouldn't that be great? Yeah, like it's so, you know, like that's having a lot of conversations and opening myself up to be to ask people, Hey, why don't we do this together? Becky Mollenkamp (34:02) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm a big fan of community and collaboration and and trying to build in that way. And I've been starting on my own journey with the podcast collective, thinking about sponsorships as well. And so it's been an interesting experience in thinking about. I think one of the things that's really good with sitting down as a creative to think about what does it mean for me to bring a sponsor on? Is it forcing you to really sit down and think about what am I bringing to the table? Right. You have to get really honest about what am I bringing to the table here. And I think. Amy Stone (34:06) Mm-hmm, you are. Becky Mollenkamp (34:31) For a lot of us with marginalized identities, that's a really good exercise because too often going back to this, like, I like to just make the stuff, but I don't have to think about how to sell it. Like a lot of us are we undersell ourselves left and right. And having to sit down and say, What am I bringing to table is such a good exercise, even if you're not gonna get a sponsor? Sitting down to do that exercise to really ask yourself, what am I bringing to the table? Because also that means like for a listener. Amy Stone (34:44) Yes. Becky Mollenkamp (34:55) What am I bringing to the table for them? For a potential sponsor. What am I bringing to the table? Because I think sometimes we can get really caught up in the machinations of just creating the podcast without actually sitting down to think about that. So has that been helpful for you? Amy Stone (34:56) Yes. Amy Stone (35:04) Yeah, a hundred percent. And you and I come from different spots in this because I was a f I've been a freelancer, my dad was a freelancer. Like I have been selling my services for a very long time. And so asking people to pay for things is not it the it is a very, very, very, very, very common problem. It just has never been my block. But what definitely was is like, okay, what am like because if you're selling a service, right? It's like, hey, I'll coach you, hey, I'll fix your air conditioning, hey, I'll, you know. Becky Mollenkamp (35:13) Mm-hmm. Becky Mollenkamp (35:33) Right. I do this, you give me that. Amy Stone (35:33) charge you for my time, right? That's a very good that's a very easy transaction to make. When you are sharing selling air, you are selling space, you are selling access to your audience, it is that it is that thing. It's like, what do I doing? And here's what I'll say. There's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very little education or information about how to do this in the onesie twossies of indie podcasting world, right? Amy Stone (36:02) So like you read the books and they're like, Well, I mean, I literally had somebody s have a conversation with me and they're like, Well, when you have a hundred thousand subscribers, and I was like, that is not my stream. Like that is not my reality. Becky Mollenkamp (36:06) C PM. Becky Mollenkamp (36:13) Right. CPM models the cost per mile, whatever you want to call that CPM mile, it doesn't work for us. No. Amy Stone (36:17) Right. It's not a viable, it doesn't work. And and there's some anecdotal evidence that it doesn't really work for anybody. So, you know, like that's one of the things. So, you know, yeah, so reframing that is there. And then where I get caught, truthfully, truthfully, Becky, is like where I was and I just had to admit that I did not know and I had to start opening up to like who is doing this. It comes back to representation. It's like looking for indie creators who are doing it. Becky Mollenkamp (36:25) All right. Amy Stone (36:46) asking them how they did it, how they got started, and finding people who are doing that because you can't take a model that is built for Call Her Daddy or Joe Rogan and put it on my show. And you know, there's a lot of industry, you talked about this, I do spend a lot of time listening to industry programming, specifically advertising programming, because I was like interested in it. And like zero of it relates to a show my size. Amy Stone (37:14) And so and and that's fine because that is the business that they're building, but that doesn't mean that it's not out there, you know, that it it just doesn't. It just doesn't. And so I found a few people. Becky Mollenkamp (37:23) Yeah. And and there is that part of me too that can go gap in the market opportunity, right? Like I can kind of see that too. Of like if we're only if everyone's so fixated on the CPM model and the Joe Rogan's and the caller daddies, that that prices so many people out of being able to participate in this too. And there is a real gap in the Becky Mollenkamp (37:45) Oper and which that gap is always an opportunity. So for indie podcasters to be thinking differently about what we bring. Again, what do I bring to the table? What could that look like? And who are those people? Like, you're not gonna don't bother with Quince, don't bother with those big corporations, right? Because they're who are the people though, like you said, the the dog groomer in Indiana? Like, how do you approach Becky Mollenkamp (38:05) approach them and then then it's a different model entirely. It's not about CPM. It's about engagement. It's looking at different metrics. And so starting that's why I just think that exercise that I've been going through of sitting down and really thinking about what do I bring to the table then? And what value does that present for someone else that's not looking at the CPM model either because it doesn't work for them because they're priced out of advertising in those places anyway. How do we find a place where we both benefit? And so I think for your head Amy Stone (38:33) And then just having the unbelievable Hutzpah to send some to send a stranger a note that's like, hey, would you want to partner with me? And that's, I mean, which to me, like knowing that that's like I like, I mean, just it's just knowing that that is actually probably the first step. Like, I mean, and I probably read 10 books and listened to like four billion hours of programming where they were like, and then they'll slide into your DMs. And I was like, I don't know, that maybe. Becky Mollenkamp (39:02) No, you gotta do the it communication has to go out and you have to that like you said, the sitting, the waiting, the build it they'll come model, that that might work if you are already a celebrity, right? Like so Amy Puller might not have had to do a ton of outreach because she already had a giant audience. That's not who most of us are, right? They're not just waiting for us to hang up our shingle and say, on air, come come get us. We have to reach out to them. And that takes a skill set that a lot of us don't realize that we have. We have it. You just may need to polish it. Becky Mollenkamp (39:31) So and yeah, yeah, exactly. And I love that you're thinking differently about these things. So tell people where to find out about your show. And then also you never know what kind of sponsors are you looking for? Amy Stone (39:32) Right, or we can grow it. Yeah, we can grow it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amy Stone (39:43) so the name of my show is The Art of Imperfect Adulting. there's a website, imperfectadulting.com. The easiest way to see the episodes and support the show right now is to subscribe and watch on YouTube at youtube.com at imperfect adulting. And the audience of my show is women. I'm a woman. The audience of my show is women, and so I am reaching out to brands who want to get their products and services in front of women. and Amy Stone (40:12) I'm starting with the products that I know and use. and I've got my eyes open, but I think that, you know, there's tremendous opportunity to to really do some win-win-win fun type situations here. Becky Mollenkamp (40:27) I love it. All right. I will put all the information in the show notes or the description or wherever you're getting this so that you can read up on or well listen to Amy show or watch on YouTube do your two video. Amy Stone (40:35) Yes. Amy Stone (40:40) I do. I've done from the start of this I took a bet on YouTube because it is a search platform and so I didn't fully understand it then, but I leaned hard into YouTube from the get go on this show. Becky Mollenkamp (40:55) I think it's personally, I think it's wise also. We got to do what you have capacity for, but I do think it's a great place to be. So go listen andor watch Art of Imperfect Adulting. And if you happen to be a sponsor who's wanting to reach women and cannot afford the CPM model of getting on call or daddy, give Amy a call or an email and you can reach out and sponsor. All right. Thank you so much for doing this, Amy. I'm sorry for being late, but I appreciate you so much for putting up with. Amy Stone (41:17) All the best, Becky. All the best. Thanks for having me.