Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Empty Nesting | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 2

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Empty Nesting | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 2 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: We are so glad you're here.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table: the messy, the hilarious, the ugly, the challenging, the amazing, the beautiful, the really effed up, all that stuff.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: We've got it here for you.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: We bring to you our own personal experiences, moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Bring your friends.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: We've got you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Come mother with us.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really wonderful conversation.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Kate and I both learn so much from these amazing women.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we hope you enjoy it too.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, listeners.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: As always, our sponsor for the Motherhood Uncut podcast is the one clock.
• 1:16
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• 1:21
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• 1:25
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• 1:29
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• 1:30
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• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Wake up better.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Hey all, it's Kate.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: I want to make sure you know about my new book, Reinventing Supermom Support, Encouragement, and Strategies for New Mothers Who Feel Lost.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: This book just launched.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: It is an amazing book for any of you out there who are mothers somewhere between pregnancy and that first year postpartum.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: It is a book that is going to guide you through lots of things to think about in prevention of postpartum mood disorders like depression and anxiety.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of the stuff that Deb and I talk about here on this podcast that we know really contributes to maternal well-being is here in this book.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: You may know someone who's a new mom that could use this book.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: So give it a go.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Check it out, read it, dog ear it, take it in the bath, make it yours.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: You can get it on Amazon or Boulder Bookstore and Boulder Barnes and Noble.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for checking it out.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Dem.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Keith.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's podcast day.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Podcast Day.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: We have really, really amazing friends with us today.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Abby Church and Amy Keller.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: They've are they're longtime friends of ours, and they're also moms that we've been looking up to for the last many years because they are many years ahead of us.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, not many years, a handful of years ahead of us.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: Long enough ahead of us that the first time, Abby, that I really spent a chunk of time with you was that Easter weekend in Snowmass when Bridger was a baby and Kinley was a toddler, and you brought your girls up who were like basically babies themselves.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Very little.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Do you remember that?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I remember that.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Easter.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: I remember that.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember your girls must have been how old were they?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like five and seven or something like that?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember thinking that they were so old.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 3:26
  unknown: I'm sorry, that's my phone.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Phones, phones are good.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Let's turn off your phone.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's off.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's just ringing.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's on vibrate.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we like that.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: See, we're messy here.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: We just um do you remember that?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt like your kids were so much older than mine.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I looked up to you as like the all-time guru mama.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I still do.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I they have these little these little girls.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: They were they were young.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Will you tell everybody how old they are now?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So now I have a 21-year-old and an 18-year-old.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and Amy, you're our boy mama here tonight.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_04: I'm the boy mama.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_04: How old are you what?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_04: And they are 18 and 20.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: When maybe that's another podcast, boys.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: It is 100% another podcast.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: We have no boy mama representation.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Well we do today.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: Thank goodness.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: In the house.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: In the house.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we brought these fabulous women on today because we want to have a conversation about what it's like to be empty nesting, what it's like to be in the stage of parenting you're in.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we're also really curious about like the transitional process of getting here.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So do you have any questions that are on your mind right away?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I do.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I before I ask the question, I think what we want to honor to our listeners is that so much of our, so many of our episodes have been about younger kids, right?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about babies, we've talked about toddler, school age, and of course, teenager.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And this is this opportunity, both Amy and Abby, you know that Deb and I are hanging on every word every time we're all together about what it's like to parent these young adults going off to college.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's of course a chance for us, Deb, me and you, to like listen and learn and ask our questions.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's also a chance for our listeners to hear this perspective from moms with older children.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Really, we could say young adults, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that to me is one of the gifts of having you guys here because we really want this podcast to be representative of all ages.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: And season seasoned mothers and all.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Seasoned is right.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: I want to say one other thing before seasoning on us as I'm sure.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful seasons.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that we talk about a lot is are the different stages of parenting and the different stages our kids go through.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing that I'm fascinated with right now is that adul around adolescence and what a long period it is.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's actually really important that we recognize that adolescence is not actually a stage, it's a bridge between childhood and adulthood.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's this, and it's, you know, I think what adolescence actually translates to is moving towards maturity.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um and because your kids are still adolescents, but they're on the other end of almost being in adulthood, you've been on this journey of really holding their hand to get to this place where they're they're doing it on their own, they're not with you anymore.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I wonder if that's a good place to start of what is that like to know that they are not you're not there holding their hand every step of the way right now.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, wow, there's there's a lot to be said about all of that.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say so um I it's really hard to have your kids leave the house and you're wondering what to have I prepared them to leave?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's definitely like this that year leading up for both kids.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my gosh, are they are they ready?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Have I done my job to get them to this point?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh two I have two different girls who have lived in the world in two totally different ways and have had very different experiences.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so no, you're not necess no, they're not necessarily like ready.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And they go and it's all good and you're at home and as if there's like you know, the ready moment when they're like ready, right?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's a constant growth, it's a constant constant and evolvement, yes, it is.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_04: It's almost like they they have to step out and experience the world and make mistakes before they become ready.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they make those mistakes and then they start to pull out the things that are in their basket of knowledge from what we've hopefully taught them.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, and then they start to get legs, yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_04: They start to figure it out.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_04: And it is, it's a it's it's an interesting process, and I think different for different kids for sure.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes different for boys than it is for girls at different speeds.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious if you feel like you were ready, right?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: So here we are talking about our are the are our kids ready when it's time to go, right?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like I remember talking to you, Abby, at one point, and I think we've all had these conversations where you were really feeling the feels of having of becoming an empty nester.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course there was the like, well, the alternative is not so awesome.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it like you don't want them to stay.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's good that they want to go.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because they need to go, yes.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right, because they need to go, and in many ways, they're ready.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: But how how did you feel?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: How ready or not ready were both of you?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was I feel like I think I've always sort of been this way though.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I wasn't I wasn't really the mom in kindergarten who was crying because my kid left and they were like leaving the home base and they were like heading off into kindergarten.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Always sort of been like, awesome, what's coming next?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, kind of excited for the next phase of things.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um so so I think because of that, all along the way, I was sort of like checking myself like, are they ready?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Am I ready?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: What's it gonna be like when our house is just my husband and I um kind of like getting excited.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I did, I got excited for that that next phase, like way more time for me to just do me.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Amy and I were talking about this whole um empty nest phrase.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I we both don't like it.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: Tell us.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: I was thinking about this.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_04: What is it?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: And I I think empty nesting, it it has this connotation, it's it's negative, it's sad, it's empty.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_04: There's a depressive element to it.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: And um, and certainly not to discount those feelings that I'm sure like so many parents experience.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: I did not feel that way.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: I feel I like you, Ab.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_04: I was um I was excited, I was definitely there was other like just the transition coming, like I knew that was coming for myself.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, okay, I gotta like get my head around this.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_04: And that's another topic, but but but in terms of being sad, like I didn't cry.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't cry.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_04: I I felt and I was like, why am I not crying?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_04: Is something wrong with me?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because I love those two boys more than life itself.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_04: Not it doesn't even need to be said, but I wasn't crying, and it made me wonder like what's what's that about?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I think after reflecting on that, I realized it was about they they were ready.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_04: They were ready.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and and so are you, and and I got myself ready.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think you said something once, Deb, that it maybe your mom told you, because right, but you said this most beautiful thing that I've held on to so much, which is that tell me if I'm not getting this right, but what I think I remember you saying is that when we go through those different stages with our kids to preschool, to kindergarten, to grade school, to high school, to college, to summer camp, whatever it is, and and we feel really ready for them to go, it's a sign that we've done our work in that previous stage.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Is that did I say that the right way?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and yes.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing I would add is it's a sign of having presence in each of those stages.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and again, that doesn't mean you don't feel sad.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, uh my my little one didn't s really speak to anyone until she was five years old walking into kindergarten.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: I remember watching her walk off and holding Howie's hand and being like, there was definitely a tear, and she was my youngest.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and then I walked out and was like, Party! I got two kids in elementary school.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: But like, um, but yeah, it's a it's an indicator of being present in those moments, which is really what we're trying to kind of cultivate for moms of how to be present in the moments with self-care, with kind of acceptance of where you're at, all the things that allow for presence.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: And non-attachment, right?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we keep, I'm sort of obsessed with this.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've circled back to this idea, which comes and go comes and goes in so many different different different disciplines and religions and philosophies, but this idea that attachment to something is what causes suffering, right?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the less quote unquote attached we are to something in as it shifts and grows, the less we suffer when it moves.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And there's this idea in mothering that I've been thinking so much about is like, where am I unconsciously attached to my children in certain ways, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think about you two and your kids going away to college and all of our many friends who this has happened to, and the people listening were like, I think it's probably an easier, or should I say, less uh suffering kind of that's not a word, but you just laughed at me.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like whatever.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just it's less there's less suffering if when my kids are with me, I'm less attached to them having to be with me.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: Am I saying that the right way?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like as I let my kids be fluid and grow, then whether they're going on to summer camp or a different grade or college, I'm more ready for that because I'm not holding on to something as if it needs to stay that way forever.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I I followed you every word.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, it brings up a question though, and that is in the moments when you really miss them, what do you do?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm real, I mean, today I'm really missing one of them.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Who's not one is still home, she's heading off um soon, but um, the other one has left, and I really miss her.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I just I would like to say, like Deb, you said something to me once where like we can we can be full of contradiction, like we can be feeling two things at the same time.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you can be feeling like I intensely miss them, and I love I can't wait for them to come home, and I can't wait for our family to all be together again for like a weekends or holidays or summers or whatever.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't wait for that.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, I'm also absolutely thrilled to be doing whatever I want when I want.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I we I, you know, you you you work on a daily basis with your kids and like all that goes along with raising them so intimately and intensely, and then they they leave in this whole wow.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a huge shift from a daily experience, even if when they're seniors in high school, they're hardly around.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: They're absolutely still around, though.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're there in your head, you don't know when they're gonna walk through the door.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Your dishes are there, all their shoes exactly, their laundry's halfway falling out of the dryer, like all that.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so they're around, but um, and then they're gone.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Depending on what they do when they're eight when they graduate high school, but then they're gone.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel it's like um, gosh, it's like a lifting of of responsibility on this like intimate daily basis.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're always on your brain still, but not in the same way as when they're living with you.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it is such a um, I just I love it.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love that that's why the nest thing for me, I think, is tricky because it feels like we are these birds who have nests, and that's what we that's who we are, and that's what we do is creating a nest.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that's what we've been doing, but I'm not just a nest, I'm not just a bird sitting in a nest.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like there's so much more to me and to my relationship with my husband, who I'm so happy to like be connecting with again and like being around.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been a major shift for me.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why the nest thing is just kind of a tricky concept, it just doesn't resonate.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_04: It's like your whole worth is is nest, then, and it's that's that's not the truth.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: That's not the case.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um but the what was your question, Deb?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: You had asked what do you do when you miss them in those moments?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: When I really miss them, yeah.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like how do you tend to yourself?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, I try not to text them too much.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_04: I I yeah, when I do, I just give a a little text, and they just send a little text back.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's just like, yeah, I love you so much, you're amazing.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_04: Or just whatever.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's just a little something, and they send a little something back, and it's like you just feel that connection.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_04: You're like, okay, they're good, they're good.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I'll tell you, the the youngest was just home for a really long break.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, for he's on the quarter system, so it was five, about five weeks, and he just left on Saturday, and it was it was great.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_04: It was great to have him home.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it was such a difference from having everything really quiet and you know, having my space clean and and food in the in the fridge, and and then he was home and it was back to regular programming, how it used to be.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_04: That's another thing with everyone's like, how how are you feeling with the empty nest?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I don't even believe there's such a thing as an empty nest.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_04: They come and they go, they come and they go.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, and it it was great, and then he left on Saturday, and it was it was time.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_04: He was ready to go back.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_04: I knew he was in a good place, we were ready to let him go, um, ready to get back to regular, you know, sleeping.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, it was it was good.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know what you're making me think of, well, two things.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: One is um, I think there's so that we could we could dive into either one of these topics if you guys want to, but there's two big points, right?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: One, you just made such an interesting comment about who are we outside of being mothers to our children?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think some of us go through motherhood already engaging in that process of exploration even when our kids are young.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And some of us don't go through that process until our kids are no longer home, or maybe when they go to school for the first time, right?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's sort of this big question of like, if I'm not doing the mothering 24-7, who am I?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's an interesting question for me.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: I also have a question that one of you said something too that made me think of, and we don't have to go into both of these, but it's sort of that Teb and I have talked about this so much in this podcast that the hardest part, one of the hardest parts, certainly one of the hardest parts for me of mothering is not knowing that my job is not to prevent my kids from feeling pain.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: And when our kids feel pain and they're close to us, we can hug them.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I have other questions for you.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: We could go either direction is like, wow, what happens for you?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: What is it like for you when you talk to your kids and they're not home and they're in pain?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And what is that like for you?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: And what's your process?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, two big topics, both of them really interesting.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: We could go either direction.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, well, I'll just start with that one because that's it's brutal.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's so hard when they are going through something difficult, whether they're sick.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when they're far away and they're really sick, and you're like counting on them in their very sick state to figure out how to adult and take care of themselves is very hard.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then when they're emotionally upset or struggling, um it's really, really hard when they're sp I mean if they're far away.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: You I have to like, I think what I all keep going back to in all those moments um is just I keep I it's like a mantra in my head that like they're learning how to do this when they're an adult.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're the this is these are skills that are gonna take them into the future.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is I it's like a constant, like it's okay because this is going to help them out.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: I that's why I have to keep telling myself that over and over again.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's purposeful.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's purposeful, it's helpful, it's it's life.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like sort of we keep you know talking about that with our kids too.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, this is this is what it is to be a human.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to like work through through this stuff, the good and the bad and the sick and all of it.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um but man, as a as a mom, I mean, it it's not to say it doesn't mean I sleep well when they're not doing well.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I, you know, I I can I what what do I do with them?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just I'm like connecting and like are they are they doing the things they need to do?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I want them to like step in and take care of make their doctor's appointments and like handle it themselves because they're here they are off at college.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think that's what you yeah, I try my best to like let them handle it.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean two things it almost feels like this is.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: is what high school years are for is to guide them, to teach them, to model how to, you know, call the doctor.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And even though we're still doing it for them, I think it's it's when it's done really intentionally of like, you know, I'll use this example of, oh, right now you need to email your guidance counselor.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, to expect a 14 year old to know how to do that is is unrealistic.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm first it might start with, I'm gonna email them, you're gonna watch me.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Next step is I'm gonna stand next to you while you type yourself and I might dictate to the words to you.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: The next step is here, you're gonna go do it on yourself by yourself.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then eventually they don't need us anymore.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so then this is a training game.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the biggest thing I heard you say is trust.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: You are having a lot of trust and a lot of patience right now.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Did you want to speak to that?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_04: Well I did want to say that it's and and we they they move into like their first semester or first quarter of school and and there's so much that I want to do.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_04: I want to have you touch base with your guidance or your um your counselor.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_04: And do you know what you're signing up for and you know all are you ready?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I I just kept my mouth shut and I let him do it.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_04: I figured you know what the first quarter first semester maybe even the first year you just let it be um a an opportunity for them to learn and and just do it on their own.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: And it was amazing.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_04: I mean he um has just picked it up and he's running with it and I I haven't had to do anything.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_04: But there were some bumps in the beginning and it felt good to just you know watch myself pull back and let him pull forward.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And let if there if there are balls that are dropped then they deal with they deal with it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean this is life too I mean we all drop drop the ball every once in a while and they're just learning how to do all this stuff.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to let them just do it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny I'm watching myself as you guys are talking and I'm like first of all you're speaking uh uh uh of you're speaking about a type of parenting that I think Deb and I resonate with right which is allow them to learn the hard way which is through experience versus doing it for them to prevent them from screwing up right and I think Deb, you and I have been on that path of mothering since our kids were little in in realistic ways based on their age.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the same thing you're saying.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: And even with that being the way I parent, my tummy hurts when I'm hearing you say this.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I can imagine that there might be some listeners who haven't necessarily chosen to parent that way, right?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: That they've sort of been a more engaged or taken more of a lead in some of things.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I imagine that for them and for all of us, that idea of letting go of that control of allowing your kids, our kids to fail to fuck up, to forget to sign up for that credit to you know whatever the heck it is like so challenging because we know that inherently with that mistake is going to come some pain.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: And we most of us dare I say all of us as mothers as parents really don't like the idea of our kids feeling pain or experiencing pain.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just so aware of this conflict like we know it's good for them.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess the question follow-up question I have for you is what helps you to do that what is what is required of you?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: What do you notice yourself needing to do to be able to step back and let them make those kinds of mistakes um I think it I I I know that they they've got it I trust them I know that they've that they can do it just out of curiosity how do you know it's a it's just a feeling it's just a feeling yeah I also think there's something to when we believe they can do it they can do it.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean they're gonna do it right every time or any not even close but it's like that is us constantly lending them I mean the technical therapy term would be ego strength.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're like lending them ego strength that's a weird you know old school word but you get the idea it's and I think we're doing that all the time like believing in them.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they're looking at us like do you think I've got it?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah that that's that energetic piece that Deb we talk about this so often is like it's not just the words we use with our kids.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just I believe you can do this and inside I'm like he fucking can't do this or she's gonna right it's like the work that's that's where my question came from the work comes from actually really being able to fall back on that deep trust and knowing you may not know what being okay or being able to do it looks like yeah but you just know that there's that capacity to be able to get through it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: And when you lend that to your kids when we lend that to their to our kids you're right they feel that yeah they bring that in and then they trust themselves.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: But if we have something else going on inside yeah they're also gonna feel that well and I think you also have to keep in perspective what how what can my kid handle like you you scaffold it at their level you know I mean so I it doesn't mean like all the kids that are taking off for college are all ready to handle all their stuff.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're just some aren't many aren't like and or they're not able to handle one specific piece of it that they just aren't ready.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: So then you do have to kind of like aid in some level you know it doesn't mean it's just like go figure it out because now you're 18.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it just depends on what the situation is but like to Amy's point like whatever you know that your two boys so far the issues that have it's registering for a class.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you forget the class you know they may up in the end have to like pay for the one credit that they forgot to get and eventually when they graduate they'll figure that out and they'll figure it out.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it's okay.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So most of these mistakes as long as they're it's okay it's like when they're the scary ones that's where you're absolutely that's a yeah it's a good point to bring up and yes and that's where it does get scary being a mom far away parent far away.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah and you cross your fingers.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_04: Right and you're just like here are all the the places where you can get support and that's yeah and and leave your phone on Abby you said something so wise and what you what you were portraying was you know your kid.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that we moms have to give ourselves I want to go so far as say most moms give yourself a gentle and strong at the same time reminder that you know your kid and nobody knows your kid better than you.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you know how much they can handle.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are you familiar with the author Gordon Neufeld he's a wonderful writer about he really focuses on the difference between peer orientation and family orientation and how we're really living in a culture right now where our young people are being peer oriented way too soon and society is not doing a good job by parenting our children and it's our job to parent them.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: But he has this one line that I love that you made me think of and that is we may all grow up and grow older oh no it's sorry I messed it up we may all grow older but we don't always grow up and the and so often so many of us get stuck in adolescence because for whatever reason we weren't given the opportunities to make mistakes over over and over we weren't given a place to land and have a place to kind of come home and crumble.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: We weren't given that self that reflection and the receiving you know when a parent can receive a child or a young adult it actually is what helps give them a strong sense of self and so that's what helps us get to the next stage of whatever it is but so often we get stuck.
• 30:34
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: I will say something else you said too is I think Kate you asked like what do we do if when our kids are like what do we how do we do to like handle that feeling or the situation and I just another um podcast I've heard you guys do like talking about um women and moms and their community that they have and I will say like I definitely defer to my group of moms who are going through doing the same thing I am and sort of um kind of go through scenarios with them or like what would you do or I mean that I'm constantly like getting feedback from um other women or my husband or his friends like as he then talks to his friends about maybe what our kids are going through.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um so it's definitely like a still a community situation.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like I just know what to do and the kids are hurting.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like getting feedback from other people collective wisdom.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely yes yes I'm reminded in this part of this conversation about how you know if if and if I think if we were to ask any mother anywhere, any place in the world what do you want for your kids?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want them to be brave?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want them to be resilient?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know those kinds of questions and of course we all know this but we don't learn how to be brave without fear.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: We don't learn how to be resilient without falling down.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so there is that really important process of not just allowing for these falls and hurts and you know I'm saying this now and you know whether it's tomorrow or four years from now you guys can be like Kate let me tell you what you said on that podcast.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: But we look forward to them.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: We want them to come so that our kids can learn how to stand back up.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there are many people out there and probably many of our listeners as well who may have been sort of sheltered from those things growing up and then when something does happen and they get wobbly, they don't know how to get back up or it's a real challenge to get back up because they don't have practice in that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know they can grow through their adolescence.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: You want them to get through it that's whatever age that happens to be but you want them to get through it.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: So on the one hand, of course we don't need to find pleasure in our kids suffering or struggling, but we can look forward to those moments because if we have the trust and confidence that you both are talking about we can both know that they're inherently they're going to be okay even if they have scabs when they come back up but that those moments of falling down are what are contributing to them being brave and resilient and competent adults.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: I have one more question.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: I hope this is an appropriate one to ask but I know that I'll put myself out there first when my husband and I have time for the two of us and our kids are away sometimes I go through a period of like oh fuck right like I'm excited to spend time where it's just the two of us but I'm also like wow we've been so preoccupied with parenting and co-parenting that what if we don't have anything to talk about or what if we don't know how to play or whatever that thing is.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's a mini version that's like going away on a little vacation.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I wonder if the two of you or one of the two of you might be interested or willing to speak to that is like what was that like for you right?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: You've been co-parenting you're both we have people who are listening who are single parents but certainly those who have partners have been co-parenting and then there's this idea that your kids move out and now it's just you and your person again.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I wonder if you guys would speak to that do you want to start with that one Amy well as let's see.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_04: So Greg and I we we had just an amazing time before we had children um it was probably four or five years and of just us in the city great fantastic and then we had kids and we co-parenting amazing fun awesome and then teenage years tight in the seatbelt there was definitely some turbulence it was it was it was there were some moments and our you know we were just like okay you got that over there I've got this over here we were just just managing and then the kids started to slowly like grow up and and start to leave and it was a slow process it was like we we all would always have dinner at night and then um there would come times where it would just be like they'd be at the table maybe three times a week and then it was not at the table at all.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_04: And and then I'd still be making dinner and we would sit down it would just be me and Greg.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like do you want to watch the news or should we just put on some music?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_04: What do you want you know and it was it was like we go out to dinner all the time and it's fine but there was just something about like it's it's coming this this time is coming and it's just gonna be us.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_04: But that we quickly moved through that but I have to admit there was some like there were a couple of moments of awkwardness like wow this is different um and now it's you know Greg keeps saying he's like he tells everybody we're we're dating again we're dating again we get you know he he's it's we're trying to date again I love that so much.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yep yep I will say I'd like to give a little shout out to my mom on this one because my my mom always all through like early when the kids were little she would sort of one thing she always was like make sure go on dates with your husband like spend time alone with him like you it's insurance on your future um like check in with each other like she all she would bring it up every once in a while she come out to visit and just be like you guys going on dates like you should do at least once a week like she would she would sort of just bring that up and then as like the empty the empty nest once the uh when um it was getting closer and closer to both girls being out of the house she was kind of like checking in again like do you have what are your plans for like you're gonna be have a lot more time alone like do you have like what are you thinking about that like she'd sort of bring it up so that it was like on my consciousness like I was thinking about it.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: So then Ted and I would talk about it.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like we would talk about what's coming and um what's it gonna be like and I I agree with Amy like we also um we're really excited in an art you know this is such a everyone's story is so unique.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I happen to be very excited to be spending time alone with my with him.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I just like to hang out with him.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: He's like my first choice of a person.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: But we definitely talked about it a lot like we're wondering like what we were gonna do and like what a night's gonna be like and so and we it was just part of our conversation to prepare for this time and we're really excited to to like get to know each other again in on this day-to-day level.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah um I I I just hear so much wisdom in both of that both of your comments heck yeah uh and the words that stood out for me were preparation and it's kind of this reminder it's like you know when you first get pregnant or you first know you're gonna get to adopt your baby there's there's anticipation of how am I gonna like feed the baby but you have a chunk of time to prepare for that that's why there's pregnancy that's why there's waiting periods it's like it's not all of a sudden boom they're gone.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And what I love that you said Aim is you know all of the last year was slowly separating and preparing for separation.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: The other big thing I heard you say is future dreaming.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And as a c longtime couples therapist it's actually one of the secret weapons for couples that thrive is to really dream about your future selves together.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because as much as we focus on being in the present moment if we can't visualize or you know fantasize about what's to come then we can often get a little stuck and it can feel a little tunnel visioned.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: So cheers to that.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if we can rename emptiness I think it has to start with the word full because there's something about there's fullness empty with said expansion.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: This is I think also we we don't I don't think we need to in this particular episode dive into that other question.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: I asked about reef you know figuring out who you are outside of mothering and I think this is where we can circle back to that question because when I hear empty when I hear empty to your point Ab it's like I'm I'm there's sort of a lost feeling in that when I hear full to your point it's like oh I'm coming alive to your your term expansion Amy so okay what's it gonna be we're putting ourselves on the spot I know live time let's play with words so nest is an interesting word yeah the home I think it what it came from like your you the kids spreading their wings and flying the nest right which is a good metaphor you know and and actually in the birds you know they push them out right they're like they're ready they're like figure it out birdie right you can also think about it in not just the the little bird is flying away but like because then it's just all the on the only focus is just that is just on the the kids there's this like I will spread I will say something though I have never just to be clear seen adult birds hanging out in that nest after the kids are gone.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gone again maybe freaking out of here I'm gonna go worm what if it's like wing expansion wing expansion taking flight taking flight and everyone's taking we're gonna take flight the children the young adults are taking flight empty nesting we're taking flight there it is wow yes where are you flying to Amy where am I flying to I'm not sure right now you know what and that is another thing I wanted to to say I don't know and it's I I'm coming I'm getting more comfortable with just taking this space to not know.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's two decades of doing one thing and um and a little preparation over the past year of coming into this next phase and understanding that it's okay.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_04: I don't have to do anything I can just take you sound free.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a relief in not knowing for sure embracing that in our big life many many many many years there's really only 18 of them that is spent with the kid in your house.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean they're always like top of your list there's some crazy statistic Abby that says that um 90% of the time we spend with our children is before age 18.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that's so I mean intense that's a crazy statistic to think about so it's I think it's important to to think about that as you're as they're in your house and you're raising them and that the reality is a lot of the time is not spent with them right in your immediate orbit.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so to embrace that I think for me that's so exciting that there's so much more to us so many more years ahead of so many things to come that are our own I'm just so excited by that.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: I just you guys are my you are my I was gonna say models heroes that's what you are my heroes because that well but but to be of course you're just starting and to both you Abby and Amy I think one of the things and Deb and I have talked about this behind the scenes but one of the things that I think we both admire so much about both of you is your honesty and your integrity and your willingness to be vulnerable because when I hear you say that Abby it's like yeah let's be as present as we can and and really enjoy as much as we can these 18 years and a lot of moments are shitty moments during that time right it doesn't mean we have to be like enjoy every minute and you two are offering the perspective to us of like it it doesn't last forever to have them here, right?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a blink.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to say thank you.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: You like Kate said we just adore you so much.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're so grateful to have mama mentors in our lives and I will say to all our listeners get yourself a mama mentor because we need it and you'll mentor someone else because Because that is what we do when we show up together as a big collective mama.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: For those listeners who don't have mama mentors out there, I'm wondering if you each would like to leave one thought for our listeners.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: One, maybe it's something you've already said that feels important, maybe it's something new, one piece of wisdom to offer those folks who maybe have little ones and it's still another 15 years till they're, what did we say, flying away?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: What was the word?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: Leg expansion.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: Another 15 years till their wing expansion.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna have to work on that.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or maybe some of our listeners.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: There might be some folks.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: We can do some good stuff out there.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: There might be some folks whose kids are gone right now.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: This is their first fall.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: So what do you want to offer?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, well, I I would say um I would advise to not be impulsive.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_04: Don't make any big decisions like getting a puppy like we did.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um or, you know, or even like sell your house real fast, like we want to.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_04: Or, you know, just just try to just sit still.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_04: So good.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say, I would say just all along the way, touch in with yourself.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like keep checking in.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how am I doing?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: How am I feeling?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: What do I need?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like just constantly do that.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just because things can go off the rails.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: They definitely did for me.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd realize, oh my gosh, wait a minute.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've like, where are my girls?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Where are my like, where are my friends?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to like go find them, or I which I you know, when the kids were little, I realized I did not have a crew.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: I had to go find it.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I and so like keep, but I need I knew I was like, I know I need it.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just gonna show up on my doorstep, but I gotta go get it.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: So like check in with yourself and check in with your partner.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hope, you know, if you have someone who like you you love in your life, check.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are we good?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: How are we doing?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: What are we what what do we need?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: What do we need to change?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: What do we need to shift?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like that's just a constant and like with your just but really with yourself, because the future is it's a big long future ahead.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: So such good wisdom.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: And Deb, we're not far away from taking flight.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: We are not, right?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I uh we have you know sophomore, freshmen, eighth and seventh grade.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that far away.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we will be coming to you when our when our time comes.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: We got this.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: Can I say one one thing I want to say?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_04: The two of you have really been something together.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_04: Your your chemistry is amazing.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_04: I had so much fun listening to season one, so much fun, and I just wish that it happened a few years earlier so that I could really um gain from the wisdom that you are sharing.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_04: So you're just both doing a really wonderful thing.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_04: So I love you both so much, and thanks.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: This has been such a treat to be um part of the conversation.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say cheers to that.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how many times have I relied on you guys for your feedback and help on what was going on in my own life?
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: So with my kids, etc.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, cheers, cheers to that.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yay, yeah.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: Takes a village.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: We love you, Dad.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: Love you, Kate.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: Love you, have a good night.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: See you next week.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.