Latest / She Speaks Life - Christian Women, Strengthen Your Faith, Bible Study, Grow Spiritually In Christ / Judgment, Mercy & the Heart: How to Stop Being “Kinda Judgy” and Live Like Jesus with Shannon Popkin

Transcript

Judgment, Mercy & the Heart: How to Stop Being “Kinda Judgy” and Live Like Jesus with Shannon Popkin · She Speaks Life - Christian Women, Strengthen Your Faith, Bible Study, Grow Spiritually In Christ

• 0:00
  Hey friends, welcome back to the She Speaks Life podcast.
• 0:03
  Today's conversation is 1. I know will speak to so many
• 0:06
  hearts because we're talking about something we all face but
• 0:11
  don't always recognize it in ourselves.
• 0:13
  And that is judgement. In a world where criticism is on
• 0:18
  a constant and opinions are loud, it can be so easy to carry
• 0:24
  a judging heart without even realizing it.
• 0:28
  But what does God's Word actually say about judgement,
• 0:31
  mercy, and the posture of our hearts?
• 0:34
  Joining me today is Shannon Popkin.
• 0:37
  She is the author, Bible teacher, speaker, and the host
• 0:41
  of the Live Like It's True podcast.
• 0:43
  Shannon has a passion for helping women open their Bibles,
• 0:47
  drink deeply from God's story, and Live Like It's True with so
• 0:52
  much humor and wisdom and biblical truth.
• 0:54
  She encourages women to walk closely with Jesus and apply
• 0:59
  Scripture to everyday life. She's the author of her newly
• 1:03
  released book called Kinda Judgy, a powerful new book
• 1:08
  designed to help readers settle their hearts milt judgy pride
• 1:12
  and become more merciful. She takes us through 6 biblical
• 1:17
  stories including Noah, Rahab, Jonah, Simon, the Pharisee, the
• 1:21
  blind man, and the second thief. And she brings clarity to when
• 1:27
  judgement is right, when it's wrong, and how to respond.
• 1:31
  As daughters of the merciful judge, this conversation is
• 1:37
  honest, freeing, and deeply needed for the times we are
• 1:41
  living in. So if you've ever wrestled with
• 1:44
  criticism, comparison, offense, or self righteousness, stay
• 1:49
  tuned. I believe today's episode will
• 1:52
  challenge your heart and draw you closer to the mercy of God.
• 1:56
  So if you're ready, I'm ready. Let's dive in.
• 1:58
  Here's my guest, Shannon Popkin. Hi, Shannon.
• 2:02
  I am so glad you are here. Welcome to the podcast.
• 2:05
  Thank you, Jamie, it's a joy to be back with you.
• 2:08
  I know you're back for another interview.
• 2:11
  I love it. Oh, I had you years ago.
• 2:15
  I I remember I was so nervous because I was first starting out
• 2:19
  with podcasting. I was probably equally nervous
• 2:23
  on the other side. It's probably only like a year
• 2:27
  in and I was so excited to have you on here and here we are.
• 2:33
  I don't know how many years later, Four years later, yeah,
• 2:36
  five years later. So.
• 2:38
  And you're still podcasting? I haven't I'm.
• 2:41
  Still at it, right? That's so.
• 2:43
  Good. I love that tenacity.
• 2:45
  Yeah, they say. I mean, if most podcasts don't
• 2:49
  last a whole year, like they'll end up giving up and can last
• 2:53
  2-3 and even 5, then you're good.
• 2:56
  So yeah. Yeah, yeah, true.
• 2:59
  I'm so excited excited about talking about your new book.
• 3:02
  You have written a lot of books in between, but this one is
• 3:06
  called kinda judgy, which I absolutely love.
• 3:10
  I it's so funny you had written a comparison girl and something
• 3:17
  on control and so we were just talking about before I hit
• 3:21
  record how the Lord just puts these just these hard topics in
• 3:27
  your heart to talk about that most I just don't wanna admit
• 3:31
  that we go through right. Yeah, I know.
• 3:33
  I keep asking the Lord, could I talk about peace or something?
• 3:36
  But it's all. I mean, these are just, I'm just
• 3:39
  kind of laying out here all my sin struggles for the world to
• 3:42
  see and let's just talk about them.
• 3:44
  But I I really wanna go after what's true, you know, and how
• 3:48
  does the truth set us free? Like how can we not only know
• 3:51
  the true story, but live like it's true?
• 3:54
  And so how can we pair those 'cause I think there are a lot
• 3:56
  of things that we say we know or we say we believe, and yet we
• 3:59
  don't live. Our life doesn't match up.
• 4:01
  So that's kind of what I'm going after.
• 4:03
  Yeah, we're not doing it. And you're you're the IT girl.
• 4:07
  God's like you're it Shannon. You're doing these hot topics
• 4:11
  you. Know he's it, but I I'm thankful
• 4:15
  that I get to be along with his his work in the world right now.
• 4:18
  Well, and it gives us this opportunity to talk about them
• 4:21
  and how can we, you know, grow from it.
• 4:23
  And so thank you for your obedience to write about these
• 4:28
  these topics that most of us don't want to admit or that is
• 4:33
  very much common of a goal that we go through.
• 4:37
  So before we dive into more about what we'll be talking
• 4:42
  about, could you give us a scripture verse that's
• 4:46
  resonating with you and why that is alive right now in your life?
• 4:52
  Yeah, absolutely. Luke 636 says be merciful as
• 4:57
  your Father in heaven is merciful.
• 4:59
  And so I think when we're talking about this topic of
• 5:04
  being kind of judgy, what melts our hearts?
• 5:07
  I mean, and I, I see it in my heart, I don't like it.
• 5:10
  I don't like that I'm so critical and harsh and
• 5:12
  judgmental of other people. But what melts my heart is the
• 5:15
  mercy of God. It's like he, his mercy changes
• 5:19
  me. And so if I want to be merciful,
• 5:23
  I need to just soak in the mercy that I first received.
• 5:26
  So we're to be merciful as the Father has been merciful to us.
• 5:30
  Yeah, it's so good. And that's something we can
• 5:33
  often forget about, right? Is to?
• 5:36
  Yeah, or be. Or just maybe lose track of
• 5:39
  like, just how merciful he has been, right?
• 5:42
  Yes, yes. And how, you know, I was saying,
• 5:45
  forget how to pass on that mercy on to others because he's
• 5:49
  merciful on us. And you know, we can go around
• 5:53
  say how much God is merciful to us, but it's, it's for us
• 5:58
  though, to pass on to others and have grace and mercy for others
• 6:02
  as well. And so it was funny, my husband
• 6:05
  did a spiritual gift test and he scored mercy at the bottom of
• 6:10
  the list. Like.
• 6:13
  You just like I just tell people how it is, you know, that tough
• 6:17
  love, you know, but it was just so funny how some people tend to
• 6:22
  bend more that way and some people it's no problem, you
• 6:26
  know, I've got mercy for others. It just exudes out a little more
• 6:30
  natural than others. So.
• 6:33
  So it's interesting. That's interesting.
• 6:35
  Yeah, I don't think I, I'm naturally very merciful.
• 6:38
  I'm, I'm more like there are some of us who, and I mean that
• 6:41
  like we are gifted in different ways.
• 6:43
  And and I think those of us who have more of that bent toward
• 6:47
  mercy, we try to we like lose track of right, right and wrong,
• 6:51
  you know, righteousness. And that's more of my heart.
• 6:54
  I'm like, well, that's wrong. And you know, so that's that's
• 6:57
  who I am is like I I have a a close eye on the lines that God
• 7:02
  has drawn between right and wrong.
• 7:03
  And so I tend to be less merciful.
• 7:06
  But either way, I think we need to grow.
• 7:08
  And how to respond to others who have crossed God's lines.
• 7:12
  Yeah, absolutely. So that's the topic, the hot
• 7:16
  topic we are going to be talking about on this show.
• 7:20
  And I think in this culture people say Christians are judgy
• 7:26
  people. And I want to dive in more on
• 7:30
  that and let's talk about it. So let's talk about that culture
• 7:34
  on how judgy Christians are, You know, how they're saying we're
• 7:38
  just too judgy, you know, and you hear that a lot with non
• 7:43
  believers, you know, and that makes them not want to become a
• 7:47
  follower of Christ because they see like, you know, the wrong
• 7:52
  side of that judgment. So I'm sure you agree, but do
• 7:57
  you agree? And how is your experience
• 7:59
  growing up in the church really shaped that perspective for you?
• 8:04
  Yeah, Well, yes, Christians are kind of judgy, but I think the
• 8:09
  whole world right now, Jamie is kind of judgy.
• 8:12
  You know? I mean, just go on social media
• 8:14
  and you don't have to scroll very far to find people.
• 8:17
  Just so harsh and, you know, just like dehumanizing of the
• 8:22
  other side of whatever the argument is.
• 8:24
  And so like, whether it's politics or beliefs or
• 8:28
  behaviors, right, where we'd all tend to be pretty, pretty
• 8:32
  polarized right now and reactive to one another.
• 8:36
  And, and so Christians in particular, yes, I think, you
• 8:39
  know, we are the ones who have the word of God and so believe
• 8:44
  the word of God. We we're the ones who've been
• 8:47
  entrusted with God's law. And and so we do have our eye
• 8:52
  more on right and wrong than, you know, the rest of the world
• 8:55
  does as we should. But I think what the problem is
• 8:58
  that we Christians tend to just kind of enjoy the feel of our
• 9:02
  little gavel right in our hand. It's like when we, when we
• 9:05
  enjoy, you know, looking down on others, there's when the judgey,
• 9:11
  the finger of judgement always points down from an elevated
• 9:13
  position. And so there's like this pride
• 9:16
  that we, we enjoy pointing out the ways that others have sinned
• 9:20
  or in or in sin. And and yeah, I grew up in a
• 9:24
  super fundamentalist denomination and some of the
• 9:29
  things that we were had our eye on are not in the Bible, right.
• 9:33
  And so that's, that's problematic when you add, you
• 9:37
  know, your own. Here's the line that God drew
• 9:40
  when you back up five feet and draw your own line.
• 9:43
  I remember being on a bus one time with some of my girls
• 9:46
  girlfriends from youth group and we were just utterly like this
• 9:51
  righteous indignation. We were so upset because a boy
• 9:55
  from our youth group had asked a girl from our school to a movie
• 9:59
  gasp. So if if you're not gasping over
• 10:03
  that, then you probably didn't grow up in a church like mine.
• 10:05
  So like we just were so outraged.
• 10:08
  How could he? How could he?
• 10:10
  You know, we lost our testimony and we couldn't have told you
• 10:13
  like why it was wrong to go to a movie.
• 10:15
  We just knew that it was. And and so I think like that is
• 10:21
  that that is ingrained in our culture, in our church culture
• 10:25
  to like look at people who have crossed even lines that are not
• 10:29
  in the Bible. And and so I mean, my call with
• 10:35
  this book, Jamie, is like, I grew up in church.
• 10:37
  I get it. I feel more comfortable in
• 10:39
  church than in a bar. Like other people might feel
• 10:42
  exactly the opposite. I feel most comfortable around
• 10:45
  church people. And so my gentle call is like,
• 10:49
  maybe could the world be partly right about this?
• 10:52
  Are we too judgy? Are we enjoying judgement in a
• 10:56
  way that we shouldn't? And you know, is it time to just
• 10:59
  lay down that gavel and step down from from judging?
• 11:03
  And I'm not saying just erase all the lines between right and
• 11:06
  wrong. That's not what I'm saying.
• 11:08
  But are there ways that we can, you know, our heart should be
• 11:13
  more like Jesus is, which was so full of mercy?
• 11:15
  Absolutely. And that brings me to how could
• 11:19
  we respond then with a softer heart?
• 11:25
  Yeah. I mean, I think when we when
• 11:27
  we're pointing down at somebody with our judgy finger and our
• 11:31
  heart is filled with filled with contempt, we're basically saying
• 11:34
  with our contempt says two things at once.
• 11:36
  It says that person over there is really bad and I am nothing
• 11:38
  like them. And so it's like putting this
• 11:40
  distance between me and this other Sinner.
• 11:43
  And we see that in different stories in the Bible like this.
• 11:45
  There's the story of this Pharisee named Simon, and he's
• 11:48
  looking at the sinful woman who's seeing Jesus's feet.
• 11:52
  She's filled with repentance. You know, Jesus is welcoming her
• 11:55
  and he says if he knew, if Jesus knew who this woman was and what
• 11:59
  sort of woman she was, he wouldn't let her nearby.
• 12:02
  And so, you know, by saying what sort of woman, well, he's
• 12:07
  implying she's a different sort than him, right?
• 12:09
  He's this sort and she's that sort.
• 12:11
  And that's what our contempt does.
• 12:13
  It builds these categories and these types of people.
• 12:18
  But but Jesus puts us all in the same category.
• 12:22
  We're all sinful people. And so he tells the story to
• 12:25
  Simon about these two debtors. They're both, they both have
• 12:29
  debt that they can't pay. And so they're like drowning in
• 12:32
  debt. And maybe 1 is drowning in 50
• 12:35
  feet of debt, the other is drowning and 500 feet of debt,
• 12:38
  but they're both drowning, they can't pay.
• 12:39
  And so that's the point he, he does make the story.
• 12:42
  So one has more debt than the other, but the point is whether
• 12:47
  you've sinned more than somebody else or not, you're, you're in a
• 12:50
  desperate situation and you need a savior.
• 12:53
  And so that's, and Jesus puts himself in the story as the one
• 12:56
  who pays the debt. And so this woman, the reason
• 13:01
  that she's kissing Jesus feet and she's, she's so full of love
• 13:04
  for him. And why Simon isn't is because
• 13:07
  she realizes her position. She understands that she is a
• 13:10
  Sinner and that she needs this forgiveness.
• 13:13
  She needs someone to come and pay her debt.
• 13:15
  And that's why Jesus came. Simon doesn't see his need.
• 13:18
  And so that's our problem when we as Christians are are
• 13:22
  pointing down at these other sinners as if we're not like
• 13:25
  them, as if we don't also have a sin debt that we can't pay.
• 13:31
  Like that's the problem with judgment.
• 13:34
  And I go automatically to that Scripture verse is in Matthew
• 13:39
  where you are pointing out the speck in your brother's eye.
• 13:44
  But meanwhile, you've got a log in your own eye, meaning, you
• 13:48
  know, Jesus is saying, hey, like quit, you know, being a busy
• 13:53
  body in other people's lives and pointing out what they're doing
• 13:57
  wrong when there's stuff that we can learn and grow from and to
• 14:03
  get rid of. Yeah, and the point of that
• 14:07
  verse, he starts by saying do not judge.
• 14:09
  And then he talks about the log and the spec, and he says get
• 14:12
  the spec out so that you have this clear sight to help your
• 14:16
  brother. You see, he's not saying we'll
• 14:18
  just dismiss and ignore your brother's sin.
• 14:20
  He's saying you have a blind spot and your blind spot is
• 14:24
  going to keep you from helping others.
• 14:26
  And we've got a lot of blind spots going on in the church
• 14:28
  right now, right? We are so blind to our hypocrisy
• 14:32
  and like, pointing out other sins, other people's sins and
• 14:35
  ignoring our own. And judgment is one of those
• 14:37
  sins. And so getting that speck out of
• 14:41
  our eye like it it helps us. If so, let's say, you know,
• 14:44
  there is someone who is falling into some sort of sin.
• 14:49
  You know, let's say your neighbor's having an affair.
• 14:51
  Let's just you know, that's a sin.
• 14:53
  Your neighbor's having an affair.
• 14:54
  And you are like aghast, like, Oh my goodness, I can't believe
• 14:57
  they would do that to their wife, their husband, while you
• 15:01
  have your own sexual sin, right? And so the verse is saying like,
• 15:06
  deal with your own sin first. Like that's the log, right, is
• 15:10
  get that out of your eye. And then you're able to go to
• 15:13
  your neighbor and say, you know what, me too.
• 15:15
  We both have an issue, like we both have sin in our hearts, We
• 15:20
  both have sin in our lives, But now you're, you're more like a
• 15:23
  fellow Sinner. You're more in a position to go
• 15:26
  and say like, can I show you Jesus?
• 15:29
  Can I show you what he's done for you?
• 15:31
  And I would love for you to know this story of mercy and and yes,
• 15:37
  our judge, Jesus is our judge, but he is so merciful.
• 15:41
  And so going to somebody else from that position, from like
• 15:45
  this compassionate fellow Sinner type position versus saying like
• 15:49
  they're that sort now we are in a position to help one another
• 15:53
  to see our sin. Yeah.
• 15:55
  No, that's good because that sets the the foundation of unity
• 15:59
  rather than division, right? There is something that I wanted
• 16:04
  to point out. I was like, oh, I can't wait to
• 16:07
  ask this question. So you hear you can judge by
• 16:12
  their fruits when you read that in Scripture, right?
• 16:17
  And then you read in Scripture too.
• 16:20
  Don't judge. So can you explain the
• 16:23
  difference between those two verses?
• 16:26
  Because I'm sure you ran into that verse while you're doing
• 16:29
  all your research on. Yeah, right.
• 16:31
  Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
• 16:32
  Those are all in the Sermon in the Mount, like several of the
• 16:34
  things that we've already talked about, they're all Jesus kind of
• 16:36
  layered them one on top of another.
• 16:39
  He said Do not judge. And then he talked about the
• 16:41
  specs and the logs and then he talked about like the fruit, you
• 16:44
  know, like knowing somebody by their fruit.
• 16:46
  And so you're exactly right. You know that our culture really
• 16:49
  loves to quote this do not judge verse.
• 16:51
  Like, aren't you wrong to judge and say someone's in sin?
• 16:54
  But that's Jesus was never saying like, don't judge right
• 16:58
  from wrong. Just erase all of the lines.
• 17:00
  He was saying don't be a hypocrite, right?
• 17:03
  And so like we just talked about, he was saying like, don't
• 17:07
  judge in this hypocritical way where you're you're putting them
• 17:11
  in some category and you and another don't judge in Simons
• 17:14
  that sort sort of way. Judge from a position of
• 17:17
  compassion like a fellow Sinner kind of way.
• 17:22
  There's another story in the Bible where Jonah is just
• 17:25
  disgusted with the Ninevites. He's filled with contempt and
• 17:30
  and she and and God in his response to Jonah, he invites
• 17:34
  Jonah have compassion on them. At the end of the book he says,
• 17:38
  shouldn't I have compassion on all of these humans?
• 17:41
  And so there again, he's putting like humanity is 1 category and
• 17:45
  Jonah fits in that category. So the word that God uses isn't
• 17:49
  the normal word. You would say like you shouldn't
• 17:51
  have compassion on this city full of people.
• 17:52
  He says the city full of humans, humans like you Jonah.
• 17:56
  And he talks about 12 myriads, like 12, you know, groups of
• 18:01
  people. And it that's like kind of
• 18:03
  paralleled with the 12 tribes. And so he's like, you know, you
• 18:06
  have, you come from 12 tribes. They have these 12 myriads.
• 18:09
  They're really more like you than you would ever imagine.
• 18:11
  The difference between you and them, Jonah is you have me.
• 18:15
  You've had me from childhood. You've had me.
• 18:18
  You're in this community where people know God and they love
• 18:21
  God and they try, they walk by God's ways, they walk in his
• 18:25
  ways. And these people don't know
• 18:27
  anything about me. And what they need is me.
• 18:30
  And so you know, God's like I've brought you here to tell them
• 18:33
  not just judgement, but tell them about me and, and all Jonah
• 18:37
  gave them. If you look at his little
• 18:38
  sermon, it's one of the, it's the shortest sermon recorded in
• 18:41
  the Bible. There's a whole bunch of them.
• 18:43
  It's 7 words and it's basically. You're going to be wanting to
• 18:46
  do. It right, No, he did it at all.
• 18:48
  Yes, exactly yeah, we saw it in the beginning and and towards
• 18:52
  the end and and like I just think that is how many of us are
• 18:56
  approaching our neighbors. We come at them with all this
• 18:59
  judgement and we preach these judgy sermons without tears.
• 19:04
  We're not we have no sense of compassion.
• 19:06
  And God wants for us to have compassion to, to approach our
• 19:11
  neighbor with a sense of like now I'm, you know, we, we have
• 19:15
  compassion for other sinners when we see that we when we see
• 19:18
  ourselves among them. So when we see ourselves among
• 19:23
  these other sinners who sin in the same ways that we do, it
• 19:26
  develops this compassion. And that's exactly right.
• 19:28
  That's how we should approach one another.
• 19:30
  But like you mentioned the trees and the fruit.
• 19:34
  So just because we have compassion for other people, you
• 19:38
  know, it's just because we've dealt with our own sin and we're
• 19:40
  and we're setting aside hypocrisy and we see like, yeah,
• 19:42
  I'm like you. That doesn't mean then that we
• 19:45
  stop looking at sin and stop noticing the fruit in in each
• 19:49
  other's lives. Like that's the whole point.
• 19:51
  Jesus is saying, like, check the fruit, and that's how you're
• 19:55
  going to know. And then he talks about how
• 19:57
  there are these people who aren't there outside, doesn't
• 20:00
  match what they're inside, you know?
• 20:01
  And so we have to be on guard for hypocrisy and other people
• 20:05
  too. And so, but it's sort of like
• 20:08
  having good judgement, right? Having good judgement is not
• 20:13
  exactly the same as judging. We need to, and so I think
• 20:19
  sometimes we we need to have our judgment restored by the Lord
• 20:23
  because we all have flawed judgments.
• 20:25
  We go to his word and we see right from wrong.
• 20:28
  And then, but then we're not there to cast judgment.
• 20:31
  We're there to call one another back to repentance.
• 20:33
  Yes, yes, that's so good. I love that.
• 20:38
  Thank you for explaining that. So good.
• 20:42
  So true, you had mentioned it in your book.
• 20:44
  I thought this was so great how God opened your eyes to your
• 20:48
  habit of holding core in your mind.
• 20:51
  So how did God work on your heart and help you put down that
• 20:55
  gavel? Because I know you kind of you
• 20:57
  write from you know, there's you just said like some things that
• 21:01
  you've struggled in life and you write from that place.
• 21:04
  So share a little bit of your own personal story.
• 21:08
  Should be great. Oh, sure.
• 21:10
  I mean, I just have always been tempted this way, Jamie, like
• 21:13
  just noticing all the ways that other people are doing it wrong
• 21:17
  and I'm doing it right. Like I there's, I talked about
• 21:20
  like these judgy booths of pride, right, that we get when
• 21:24
  we're looking down at somebody else.
• 21:26
  Like, my daughter would come down the stairs when she's about
• 21:30
  four and her brother's 2, and she'd be like, he got out of his
• 21:33
  bed again. And then I'd say, uh oh, what
• 21:36
  about you, dear? He like, here you are.
• 21:38
  You're out of your bed standing here telling me about your
• 21:41
  brother. And so like I've always had that
• 21:42
  in me, like just this desire to lift myself up by pointing out
• 21:47
  how somebody else has been wrong.
• 21:48
  Like I was totally a tattler as a little kid and, and as an
• 21:52
  adult, I think I maybe it's not as overt, but I really like to
• 21:56
  keep an eye on how other people are doing it wrong and I'm doing
• 21:59
  it right. And it's, it's ugly.
• 22:03
  I don't, it's like, I don't like to broadcast that.
• 22:05
  I don't really enjoy sharing that with you.
• 22:07
  But I tend to like hold court in my head, you know, and keep all
• 22:10
  these lists of like how they have done it wrong and how I
• 22:13
  have done it right. And like, I hold court, I hold
• 22:16
  sessions in my head, you know, where I'm like, I'm not so bad,
• 22:19
  like I'm defending myself and why she isn't so perfect.
• 22:23
  And it's, I didn't even realize how much I was doing that until
• 22:27
  I was writing this book. And you know, the Lord was just
• 22:29
  convicting my heart left and right with all of the judgement
• 22:33
  and in my heart and the ways that I go back into that
• 22:36
  courtroom and have all this disgust and contempt for other
• 22:41
  people. And I, I remember one time there
• 22:44
  was this woman that I just, she had said something really
• 22:47
  hurtful. And I think that is a pattern
• 22:50
  when we feel judged by somebody else, that's when we're tempted
• 22:52
  to be more harsh and judgmental. So I felt judged and I wanted
• 22:57
  to, yes, exactly. And I just wanted to judge her
• 22:59
  right back. Oh, such intense, like, and I
• 23:02
  was just, it was kind of fresh in my mind and just several
• 23:06
  times a day, I would just be like holding court in my head,
• 23:09
  like and rehearsing the things that she said where she was
• 23:12
  saying something that I was wrong and like why I wasn't
• 23:15
  wrong and why she was. And, and I remember just like
• 23:18
  thinking how, you know, how harsh and critical and
• 23:22
  judgmental she had been toward me and just like picturing that
• 23:25
  look on her face, like just this visceral, like, you know,
• 23:30
  ugliness on her face. And so, and then, and so as I'm
• 23:33
  holding core at this one moment, I'm like washing my hands in the
• 23:36
  sink and I'm just, I have to look up in the mirror in the
• 23:40
  bathroom and caught a glimpse of my face.
• 23:42
  I was like, Oh my, like, you look actually pretty like harsh
• 23:47
  and judgement. I had this horrible look on my
• 23:50
  face. It was really ugly.
• 23:52
  And I'm like, that is betraying my heart, you know, And the Lord
• 23:56
  really used that to convict me. And so like in that, in that
• 24:00
  situation in particular, I, it was right before Easter and I
• 24:05
  was just like, so convicted here.
• 24:07
  Jesus had died for my sin. You know, he was so like, think
• 24:10
  of Jesus on the cross when they are like viewing all of this
• 24:15
  judgement at him, Like, who do you think you are?
• 24:17
  You're not the son of God. You know, you're not the King,
• 24:19
  you're not the Messiah. They're just judging him so
• 24:23
  harshly when he had done literally nothing wrong.
• 24:26
  You know, I can never say that that I've done literally nothing
• 24:29
  wrong. I I've always there, I'm always
• 24:31
  partly to blame. And so I was just reflecting on
• 24:35
  Jesus and his great mercy on the cross.
• 24:37
  Like he didn't just go to that cross.
• 24:41
  He like, I think people think Jesus was too weak.
• 24:43
  That's why he, that's what these people at the foot of the cross,
• 24:46
  they thought he was too weak and he couldn't come down.
• 24:49
  But actually he was too merciful.
• 24:50
  Like he was staying there on that cross for the very people
• 24:54
  who are spitting at him and judging him.
• 24:57
  And so it was like that mercy. I just reflected in that Easter
• 25:01
  season on Jesus's mercy for me and for this other woman.
• 25:07
  And that is what melts our pride toward each other.
• 25:09
  And so I just had this practice of like, I refused to rehearse
• 25:15
  those, you know, those courtroom kind of attitudes and like those
• 25:20
  lists. And every time I was tempted to
• 25:22
  go back in that courtroom, I would just in my heart be on my
• 25:26
  knees next to her before the cross and and just be in the
• 25:31
  presence of Jesus and his great mercy.
• 25:33
  And I can tell you by that by the end of that season, like
• 25:36
  that temptation was really called like to judge her and and
• 25:41
  you know, the the Lord was working my heart and eventually
• 25:44
  restored that relationship and I'm so grateful.
• 25:46
  Thank you for sharing that. That's a wonderful testimony.
• 25:50
  And I think we can often do that like you hit the target there
• 25:53
  where it's like first somebody judges you and then you your
• 25:58
  knee, knee jerk reaction is to judge them.
• 26:01
  Back, yes, or they want to judge you back and then it goes on and
• 26:06
  on and on and like well you're the 1:00 and you're the.
• 26:09
  One, yeah. And I believe too, that we can
• 26:15
  roll into these assumptions of what others think of us, right?
• 26:22
  And those assumptions I've caught myself because I think
• 26:26
  you even wrote something in your book.
• 26:29
  I was reading it right about assuming something because they
• 26:36
  didn't respond to an invite or something that you sent them.
• 26:40
  Yes. Yeah, yeah.
• 26:41
  And then when I was reading your book, I was like, this is so
• 26:44
  good because so many of us can relate to that because we'll,
• 26:48
  we'll text a friend. And, you know, the closer we are
• 26:52
  to women and to others in general.
• 26:54
  But you, you just have these expectations, right?
• 26:58
  Oh, they're gonna, you know, respond.
• 27:01
  They'll be happy. They'll want to come.
• 27:03
  And you know, and you, and so when you're not getting a
• 27:07
  response at all, or it's not even a response that you
• 27:10
  expected, then you're like, huh, like and you just assume all the
• 27:16
  worse, right? You can just go down the spiral
• 27:19
  in your head that was true. Yeah, there's one of the stories
• 27:22
  that I looked at in this book was this blind man and the
• 27:26
  Pharisees, and they're judging him.
• 27:28
  He's just been healed by Jesus and he's, you know, he's kind of
• 27:32
  like loyal to Jesus and they're not.
• 27:35
  And what they're saying is we know that this man is not from
• 27:38
  God. We know they say it all over and
• 27:41
  over. We know, and they're talking
• 27:42
  about Jesus assuming they know something and, and they're dead
• 27:45
  wrong. They're dead wrong because he is
• 27:48
  from God and he is the Son of God and he is the, you know,
• 27:51
  he's all the things that they're saying we know.
• 27:53
  And so that's where I'm getting this concept of, like judging is
• 27:57
  often assuming something that we know when we really don't.
• 28:01
  Yeah. God is the only one who knows
• 28:03
  what's on people's hearts. He, he's only the only one that
• 28:06
  can weigh the heart of another. And, and like to put, like to
• 28:11
  put the final verdict of somebody's life into our own
• 28:15
  hands. Like, how sinful is that?
• 28:17
  Like how these Pharisees were doing with Jesus.
• 28:19
  Yeah, but yeah, that story was my my friend, a dear friend of
• 28:23
  mine named Renee, and she gave me permission.
• 28:26
  Any story I tell, I have permission from the person.
• 28:28
  But I had invited her to be on a prayer team that I have from my
• 28:33
  I you know, I go out and speak a lot and I'm writing and doing
• 28:37
  all these things. And I just have been convicted
• 28:40
  that it's, it's pretty presumptuous to not have people
• 28:42
  praying for me because I know I'm spec stepping into a war
• 28:45
  zone. And so I invited her to be on
• 28:48
  that prayer team. And I thought she didn't
• 28:53
  respond. And I thought in my mind, I
• 28:57
  thought, oh, I know why she is, you know, cuz in her mind she
• 29:00
  is, she is judging me. And she's thinking, who does
• 29:03
  Shannon think she is writing these books, speaking to people
• 29:05
  Like she's just like an average girl.
• 29:07
  And I'm like, I know, I know that, you know, but I just felt,
• 29:12
  I felt so judged by her, by her not wanting, you know, just over
• 29:16
  and over in my head. It was like one of those things
• 29:18
  where I entered the courtroom and like, you know, she's
• 29:20
  judging me. She's, she's thinking like, who
• 29:23
  do I think I am? And, and I'm not setting out to
• 29:26
  lift myself up. She's judging, you know, she's
• 29:28
  putting me down. And so over the course of like
• 29:32
  10 years, I just like kind of withdrew because I felt judged
• 29:35
  by her. And and so I just kept
• 29:37
  withdrawing, withdrawing a little bit.
• 29:39
  Like maybe we're not really that good of friends.
• 29:40
  If she doesn't even want to be on my prior team, then I guess
• 29:43
  we're not friends, you know, like that's sort of an attitude.
• 29:45
  So then as I'm writing this book, it was one of the things
• 29:49
  that the Lord brought to my mind of like, I had totally judged
• 29:53
  her, a judge judged her motives. Like I had this whole court and
• 29:56
  I put the defense in, in my like her accusations in her mouth and
• 30:01
  my defense. It's like, Oh my goodness.
• 30:03
  So I decided to like come clean and I, I texted her so
• 30:08
  emotional, but I was just like, look, I am so sorry for judging
• 30:12
  you. You know, I invited you to be on
• 30:15
  that prayer team and because you didn't, I judged your motives.
• 30:18
  And I'm so sorry. And like, if you've felt me
• 30:21
  withdrawing from this friendship, like that's why.
• 30:23
  And I confess that and I'm sorry.
• 30:25
  There's like, you know, and I said you, you can respond to
• 30:28
  that if you'd like, but you don't have to.
• 30:32
  It's just, it's so far in the past, but literally I judged
• 30:35
  your motives wrongly. And so she immediately texted
• 30:39
  back and said, Oh my goodness, Shannon, I am so sorry.
• 30:42
  I, I, I'm so glad you told me this because I've never ever
• 30:46
  even once not thought anything but positive.
• 30:50
  I'm so thankful for your ministry and I'm so excited.
• 30:53
  I'm totally cheering. And she's like, I don't remember
• 30:56
  ever getting that e-mail. So, or maybe like you switched.
• 30:59
  I think she goes, I thought I was on that prayer team and I
• 31:01
  think something switched and I just stopped getting the emails.
• 31:04
  And so Oh my goodness, I was so convicted, right?
• 31:09
  And just so humbled by that. And I, and I'm so thankful Like
• 31:14
  we have this beautiful, like I called her immediately and we
• 31:17
  cried and shared. And it was just like this
• 31:21
  immediate, like, you know, re connection, reuniting with this
• 31:26
  friendship. And so it makes me happy, but it
• 31:29
  also makes me sad because I just wonder how much I've missed by
• 31:32
  judging other people and assuming that I know when I
• 31:35
  actually don't, you know, I and let me just add one more thing
• 31:38
  if I could. I was working with a biblical
• 31:41
  counsellor and he told me, you know, honestly, he's like,
• 31:45
  you're, you're pretty jaded, you know, you're pretty skeptical,
• 31:48
  which I said, I've been this way since I'm a child, you know, I
• 31:51
  analyze what people are thinking and what they're, you know, why
• 31:53
  they're doing what they're doing.
• 31:55
  And he and so we were working through a a broken relationship
• 31:59
  and he just challenged me. You know what love First
• 32:02
  Corinthians 13 says love hopes all things, you know, and and so
• 32:08
  this is not an abandonment of having good judgement, but it's
• 32:11
  just like I, I think in my head I was worried like, can I really
• 32:16
  believe that what this person is saying is true?
• 32:18
  I just have a jaded A jadedness to me, you know, right.
• 32:21
  And I'm thinking like, you know, what if I'm being lied to?
• 32:24
  What if I'm you know, what if I don't know?
• 32:27
  Just all the scenarios and his his recommendation to me was
• 32:31
  just love, hopes, all things. And I could for now just be open
• 32:35
  hearted and stop presuming that I knew something that the person
• 32:39
  was not saying, right? Like just set that aside.
• 32:42
  And if, if there were to come a time when I found out that their
• 32:46
  words didn't match their heart, well, then we could deal with
• 32:48
  it. But for now, I could just set
• 32:50
  aside my presuming that I knew something that I didn't actually
• 32:54
  know. And I, I cannot tell you what a
• 32:57
  difference that made. I mean, that has made a huge
• 33:00
  difference in my life, just to set aside that presumption like
• 33:05
  that, assuming that I know what someone has not actually spoken
• 33:09
  so. Yeah, it's like you've been more
• 33:11
  of they're guilty now they have to be proven innocent instead of
• 33:17
  they're innocent, so they're proven guilty.
• 33:20
  And you know that Search Rivers think the best of everyone, you
• 33:25
  know? And yeah, a lot of us have a
• 33:28
  hard time with that. One will think the worst, and
• 33:32
  then they have to prove something good.
• 33:34
  You know, it's like the opposite.
• 33:37
  And I think when we've been hurt by someone, you know, I know
• 33:41
  that our listeners have in mind somebody that, you know, I mean,
• 33:45
  if they're they've been hurt deeply, maybe there's been an
• 33:48
  affair, there's been somebody's gossiped or someone's done said
• 33:51
  something super real and yeah, betrayal.
• 33:53
  You're just like, I don't know. I think I do know.
• 33:56
  I think I do know what's in their heart.
• 33:58
  I've already been down this path.
• 33:59
  And and yet I think that is sort of pride saying like, if this
• 34:06
  person is repentant and wanting some sort of like
• 34:10
  reconciliation, who are we to judge their hearts and their
• 34:14
  motives? I mean, I've heard that many,
• 34:16
  many times from women of like, no, it's too far gone.
• 34:19
  He'll never change, she'll never, you know, fill in the
• 34:22
  blank and you and you just don't know that.
• 34:25
  And I think when we make that assumption and judge their
• 34:28
  hearts and judge their motives and like weigh the the value of
• 34:32
  a person based on what we know, like we have such limited
• 34:36
  knowledge. Only God, you know, and he does
• 34:38
  know and he offers the mercy. And so he is so full of mercy.
• 34:45
  And I think so. So pride is like, no, no, I
• 34:47
  already know. Humility, I think, leans in with
• 34:49
  some curiosity and some questions, not just a blind
• 34:53
  trust. I'm not talking about that.
• 34:54
  And I think sometimes we need other godly people around us to
• 34:59
  deal with hard situations. But I don't think we're doing
• 35:04
  any any good. Like we can do harm to
• 35:07
  relationships just presuming. No, we know.
• 35:09
  I already know what's in their heart.
• 35:11
  Yes, exactly. And it goes to that Scripture
• 35:14
  cast down all imaginations. Yeah, those imaginations are
• 35:18
  those hair assumptions, yes, that we're imagining, right,
• 35:22
  that go against the word of God, against truth.
• 35:25
  But I love our conversation so much it's hard to come to a
• 35:30
  close. But as we do, I love to ask each
• 35:33
  of the guests what is a take away that we can offer the
• 35:38
  listener. Something to ponder on or take
• 35:40
  action in. Maybe it's something you're
• 35:42
  offering some goodie. Sure.
• 35:45
  Yeah. Well, I do have a kind of judgy
• 35:48
  quiz. So if you wonder if you're kind
• 35:49
  of judgy, yeah, you can take the quiz.
• 35:53
  And if after you take the quiz, everybody gets this little heart
• 35:56
  check, that'll come. And you can download it to your
• 35:58
  phone or you can print it out. And it just kind of helps us to
• 36:02
  ponder and weigh our hearts. Like am I wrongly judging
• 36:05
  someone's attitudes or actions? Am I wrongly judging their
• 36:09
  beliefs? You know, am I, am I in the
• 36:12
  wrong and and looking at some of those blind spots that we tend
• 36:16
  to have in our heart. But I just would love to quote
• 36:19
  close though, by saying, you know, I think we can get it
• 36:24
  right about judging and still be in the wrong.
• 36:29
  And and so like what we really truly need is to have our hearts
• 36:34
  melted by this merciful judge. That's why I studied in this
• 36:38
  book. I studied 6 stories.
• 36:39
  I could have just gone to like the New Testament teaching parts
• 36:42
  of our Bible. But stories, you know, have you
• 36:45
  ever like, cried at the theater over a story that, like, if you
• 36:49
  were just skimming an article about it, you just would have
• 36:52
  had no effect? And that's stories have that
• 36:55
  effect on us. And so I think in all of these
• 36:58
  stories in the Bible, we're seeing people who are
• 37:00
  encountering A merciful judge over and over from the
• 37:04
  beginning, His heart, we maybe think that his heart is pent up
• 37:07
  with judgement, but actually it's filled and pent up with
• 37:11
  mercy. It's like he is just waiting for
• 37:14
  that moment to to let his mercy flood our lives.
• 37:19
  And so it's really in encountering him and in knowing
• 37:22
  him, this is the change. This is what will ultimately
• 37:25
  change. Our hearts is being moved by the
• 37:27
  mercy of this merciful judge. I love it.
• 37:30
  Thank you so much, Shannon, for imparting your wisdom and your
• 37:34
  obedience to write this book and just to share with us so we can
• 37:38
  glean from it and grow. And it's not something to, you
• 37:43
  know, dismiss or sweep it under the rug.
• 37:45
  The more we can address it, the healthier we will be.
• 37:49
  And for spiritually mature Christ like, I should say so.
• 37:53
  Thank you, Shannon. Amen.
• 37:55
  My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
• 37:58
  Thank you so much for listening. Today and I.
• 38:00
  Trust that God has encouraged you through this story.
• 38:04
  Did you know this podcast is on YouTube?
• 38:07
  Hop on there and subscribe and you can see a live recording of
• 38:11
  each episode. And For more information on this
• 38:14
  ministry and to access free downloads, please visit my
• 38:18
  website at jamieelizabeth.com. That's JAYME elizabeth.com and
• 38:25
  let's connect beyond the podcast by going to my Instagram handle.
• 38:29
  Jamie Elizabeth, she speaks life or Facebook.
• 38:33
  Until next time, my friend, I hope God reveals himself through
• 38:36
  your own life story.