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Transcript

The Dirrty Truth Behind "Clean" Beauty · Divine Skintervention

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hi Angela.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Ramon.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't laugh at me.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to see you.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And why wouldn't I be?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm beautiful.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also excited to see all of our friends out there in podcast land.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us every week.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not joining us every week, what are you doing?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Please and thank you.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, question for you.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: We we both, we both.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not just pointing a finger at Angelo.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about skincare routine at its most simplest in its most simplest format, three steps.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: And everything else beyond that, it's extra.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: It could be beneficial, but it's extra, not required.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, of course.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: What is your favorite extra step or product category?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, I would say overall solutions, that's what I call them.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that's watery.
• 0:58
  unknown: Watery.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Toner, essence, facial spray, especially a facial spray, because something that I could just like spritz spritz and then rub, I love.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because I'm usually on the go.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And as you all know, my philosophy of slap that shit on works really well with that.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if it's in a mister format, I I live.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I love.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I laugh.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: I live, I laugh, I love a good facial spray.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, you could get so many different benefits out of these solutions, these watery liquids.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a lot of them recently have been milky toners that's been popular recently.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So um some favorites.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: The okay, Addo Barrier Mist from Estera.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Estera, the Laneige Cream Skin, which comes both with a mister and you could just like pour it out of the bottle, like both both sides.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I really like Bioma's Milky Toner too.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Love her.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that I would say, and we've had this conversation here before, is that sometimes people ask us, like, do I need a milky toner?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And milky is just like a descriptor of what the like texture is.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: It could be loaded with different ingredients.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So uh prequels uh got a um the exfoliating milk exfoliator, so that's your car.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there, there you go.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Could be an exfoliant too that's milky.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but usually there, these are gonna be like barrier-focused products.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: How about you?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: What's your favorite non-necessary step?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love a toner too.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, or even like an essence.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I have oily skin, so for me, like that lightweight hydration is really, really just does it for me.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: What's the difference between a toner and an essence to you?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Marketing.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: To me, I'm looking at viscosity-wise, essences to me are very like they are water-like.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: A toner, you might have a little bit more of body viscosity out of it, um, either due to a high amount of humectance.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, glycerin itself, it's a very syrupy texture, or even just a small amount of like a gelling agent to give a little bit more body in that toner.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hyaluronic acid gets gel-like too, if you put a lot of it right.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So different humectant, polyglutamic acid.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: That gets that comes.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Beyond that, though, eye creams lately.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Eye cream.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: I have been loving I'm I've never been a hater of eye creams.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it has to be a certain example.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: But um, going back to I have really oily skin, I have really dry under eyes.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so my favorite thing is like if I don't blot throughout the day, my face gets so, so, so oily, but then you see the very clear line of this is like the Sahara Desert.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I always now I like to prep with something that's a little bit more something rich.
• 4:01
  unknown: Rich.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um I have been an eye cream hater in the past.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I gotta admit, recently I got served one of my old videos from 2020 where I just said eye cream is regular moisturizer with a bigger markup.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Here's let me clarify, okay?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: I do not think that everybody needs a separate eye cream from their other moisturizer.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: However, you may have different like concerns that you're treating in the eye area than the rest of the face.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think particular eye treatments make sense in that case.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't necessarily need an eye cream that's just a moisturizer to moisturize your eyes.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that I like doing is what I call moisturizing by zone.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: So uh for me, I have combination skin, and definitely in the colder months here in New York, I will get dryness around my nose, around my eyes, maybe around my mouth.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, in general, I'll use maybe like a light to medium weight moisturizer over the entire face, including those areas.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then in my drier areas, I will go in with a thicker moisturizer, or you could even do this with an ointment, like a Vaseline or an aquifer, and then go into those areas with that thicker moisturizer.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: For me, where I say like the eye cream, it's situational base, is to Angela's point, I don't want something that's purely just hydrating or that it's nothing special.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: I like really comprehensive formulas, and that's where A, what are you targeting in that area that you want a dedicated product for?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And B for other people, it's a matter of if you have more sensitive skin, especially in that area, is the eye cream formulated to be more suited for that more sensitive area.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, like encapsulated retinoids or something like that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have been really liking at nighttime the rock eye treatment.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like in the the silver.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it it's the thing with the the applicator.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: I tried that a few times.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's interesting because they it's so it's for dark under eyes, and we talked about it before on the podcast.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Dark under eyes can be a result of a lot of different factors.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: With the specific one from rock, they try to approach it in any possible.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they try to approach it to be a solution for any possible source of that dark under eye.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, beyond that, they make a good eye stick too.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's it's like vitamin C and peptides.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Nice for during the day.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think I have it.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't used it yet, but it's cute.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: I should try it out.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Besides that, uh, remedy for dark circles, a more affordable option.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then the bloom effects one.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, which is cute.inky is stacked.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, well, what are you targeting that that has inactive for anything?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Smoothing, firming, antioxidants, dark circles.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: The kitchen sink.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Literally.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like a really nice gel texture.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, cute.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so eye creams.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and also my favorite thing with eye creams is I'll apply it around the eye area and then I'll also put somewhere along my lip line.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, okay.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: What are you target targeting around the lip?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you want to get big plump ones?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: DSLs.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: DSLs.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like a lot of eye creams are focused around fine lines and firming and plumping, and it's I mean, to me, I'm like, yeah, be beneficial for around the lips.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about this tip that people give of like put hyaluronic acid serum on your lips and then put a lip balm?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I do do that.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm notorious for a glossy lip.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can make any lip gloss look just phenomenal.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Lip balm even.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look at the material.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And my hack is um drink water.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Take a napkin, exfoliate the lip with the napkin, drink more water to hydrate the lip, and then lip gloss on top of that.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you have like a smooth, hydrated lip base that then the gloss um just sits really nicely on top of.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: My lip gloss is popping.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: My lip gloss is cute.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: It always is.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and then back to toners.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: I like big bottles because I slap that on from head to toe.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have been known to tone my entire body.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned the prequel exfoliating one.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: That one's spicy, but it feels really velvety on the skin.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I will on the like butt, thighs, uh, torso, legs, everything.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Love that product.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have been known if I have like a facial spray that I'm trying to get through, like just spray it all over my body before I moisturize after the shower.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Supple.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Soft, supple skin.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, another good one.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Isentry, hyaluronic acid toner.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's like 500 mils.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't the like legendary one?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: The Hada Labo.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like gigantic.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've never used that.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: She's a cult classic.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: People don't talk about Japanese skincare the way they should, but that's partially because it stays very consistent.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think people should not sleep on Japanese skincare.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: The Biore sunscreens.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: A brand that I think they're trying to make their impact in the US.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: We've I've been using it for like 10 plus years.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Naturi.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Naturi.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: They have an amazing gel moisturizer, but also they're like lotion slash toner.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, really large fill size, really, really hydrating.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think also the Curel facial care from Japan.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: From Japan, very nice.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're selling it in the US now, though.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I have seen it, yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Get into it.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Japanese skincare.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: So Ramon.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: So Angelo.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: I want to ask you about clean beauty.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Were you ever a clean beauty girl?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Were you ever a clean girl?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because you don't look clean to me right now.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm I'm I'm known to be dirty when I have to be.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, no, I never got into the clean beauty phase, partially because again, I got into skincare because I had really bad acne.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And most of the things targeted for acne-prone skin, I don't at that point in time, they didn't have any sort of clean angle or marketing.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking like benzo peroxide cleansers, salicylic acid, everything.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So then when I did get into skincare, I was already coming into it with like a scientific lens.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just like, this is a scam.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think for me, same as you, I never really thought about it that way.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, it's like I've gotten more and more into skincare, like into the industry via not just being a dermatologist, but also like the social media thing, the marketing thing, working with brands.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I used to be a little bit more indiscriminate in like what I used.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd be like, okay, I don't care if this is a clean formula or something, or the free from claims.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I did not give a shit.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: But as time has gone on, like there are certain brands that I just will not work with because it's egregious what they do.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: So a thousand percent.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And like, unfortunately, actually, to your point, seeing the free from claims and seeing a lot of the rhetoric around clean beauty in the marketing to me is a huge turnoff where I'm just like, I don't even want to use this product.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, when I see again, it keeps these brands keep launching because people who have no business launching brands keep thinking, I'm gonna reinvent the wheel.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: But every time I see these clean brands still launching, I'm like, okay, so you don't know anything.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: One thing I will say is that the retailers are playing a part in this.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: So for instance, clean at Sephora.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think people who are making brands decide that, okay, we want to shoot for that as a benchmark because we think it'll help us get into the retailer.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no real definition of what clean is.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, obviously, these retailers, like Sephora, in order to give that clean at Sephora seal, there are certain uh guidelines that a product has to meet.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: But truthfully, there is no definition of what clean is.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I think somebody tried to sue Sephora over that, and maybe their case got thrown out or something because they were saying, oh, this mascara said it was clean at Sephora, but it's not clean.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the thing is what is clean, because clean doesn't necessarily mean natural.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And just in that in itself, that's where a lot of inconsistency also lies.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I say like these brands shouldn't exist, and if you're launching clean, that means I already know, like, okay, you're doing this for the wrong reasons, is seeing a lot of people, again, indie brand founders, they uh give a pitch and they're like, you know, I was just so tired of seeing all these toxic chemicals and all this dangerous, uh, all these dangerous products on the shelves.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Companies don't want to kill consumers, or they don't want lawsuits.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and beyond that, like everything's a chemical.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And also, people just don't realize there's laws and regulations put in place with ingredients of what we can use, what limits we can use them in, what applications you can use those ingredients in.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're either so there's different ways of thinking about this.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: When I see that from a founder, I'm thinking either they're trying to scare consumers into using their product by saying, hey, everything else is dangerous for you, but not what I sell.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um they know what they're doing and they're maybe appealing to a certain type of customer.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of these companies, even the big conglomerates that put free from claims on their products, they know that those substances that they're free from aren't dangerous.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like they have the scientists working there, but for marketing, they will remove certain things from the formula because that's what the consumer wants, even if it's not truthful.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or if a you know founder really believes those things, you're basically telling me that you don't know what you're talking about.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're saying, I'm dumb.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I went into this industry and didn't talk to the right people who know what they're talking about to guide me in the right direction.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Ironically, I was at a show recently and some guy pitched me his brand.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right, like literally, he was like, I was tired of seeing all the toxic chemicals on the shelf.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I decided to make my own brand.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I don't know anything about skincare, I don't really use it, I don't wear makeup.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked at him and I was like, I could tell.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: But he then was showing me products, and what's really funny is all the colorings in his makeup, they weren't FDA approved.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't approved for use around the eye or the mouth.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, you say you were tired of the toxic chemicals on the shelf.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Your products are actually very unsafe.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're not regulated like they should be.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't be selling this, and people should not be using this.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Did you tell him that?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was really tired.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was just the spiel was a lot.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it again, I was very much still stuck on the I don't really use skincare or makeup, but I make it.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then why?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like that makes no sense to me.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: You at least gotta get your feet wet if you're going into an industry.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like because that tells me you also don't necessarily believe in what you are selling to your consumers.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know it's any better than anything else?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And this is my qualm of me always getting annoyed by like tech and finance people starting beauty brands.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, what do you know about this?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many founders out there that are just uh, you know, finance people that decided they wanted to change careers.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: They see beauty as a lucrative industry.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is potentially, but I'm tired of people bringing things to market that we don't need.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: We do not need another clean brand.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: We do not need more free from claims.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually something that, like, when I caught this bug of I need to talk about this, it was about parabens.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was one of my first big like social media pushes when I started making content was like reviewing the data for people and taking them through the story of how parabins got demonized.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, basically, these researchers took breast tumor tissue and just found parabens in it.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then it turned into this huge thing of oh my god, are they endocrine disruptors?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Does it cause breast cancer?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Da-da-da-da-da.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: How did it get there?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: It must be from deodorants.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Many safety studies done, including looking at people who used paraben-containing deodorants, which that's real-world data.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: That is what you want, that is the gold standard.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh seeing if they were more likely to develop breast cancer and they weren't.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Also, people hear parabins and they don't realize that's an umbrella term.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of different types of parabens.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there are categories that we don't use in cosmetics that we can't use in cosmetics, and those that we do because they are safe.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: They've been proven to be safe.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And what's so funny is when you talk to a lot of old school chemists, they're like, oh, I missed the days of using parabens.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't need a lot to be very, very effective.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the thing, is you still want a preservative in your products because then you get into these clean brands who aren't using proper broad spectrum preservatives, you got molds in your product.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, uh, sometimes when we throw out ingredients like this that are proven safe and effective with decades of safety data, and we put in something new, it causes a new problem.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the really clear example of this is when parabens got demonized, there were these uh preservatives introduced into the system called methyl isothiazolanone and methylchloroisothiazolanone.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we saw like a huge uptick in cases of people getting allergic contact dermatitis and inflammatory reactions, in some cases, really bad, to products containing those preservatives.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: They were much more allergenic than parabens.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now they're getting demonized too.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you're we're seeing them a lot less.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like sometimes the devil, you know, it's not even the devil, but you know, you're you're going for these less uh studied ingredients and they're causing issues.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to Angela's point, I remember looking into that specific preservative system.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: You see, I think you still see it a little bit in cleansing products.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why, it's refactants.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the allowed amount is so, so, so, so low in products, and not because of any toxicity issue, it's just because, to Angela's point, it's really irritating.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so am I.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, the blend of the two, I think is cathon CG, it's called, but a classic example about how you know that is not necessarily the better option to use something you don't know anything about.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Also to Angela's point, so with parapins, you need a really small amount for them to be effective.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: With alternative preservatives, you're seeing them at higher concentrations because you need more to really get good, efficacious preservation of a product.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: The minute you got water in a product, or it's something that you have to basically use and then re-insert back into the packaging so you're inoculating it with God knows what, you need a preservative.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can I ask you a side question?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I am known for saying, do not touch the dropper to your face.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, you got beef with that.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's to the point now where when I take sunscreens with like nozzles and put those on my face, people are like, oh, Angela's gonna be mad at you.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm not mad about that.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like the dropper is meant to go in the bottle, not your skin flora.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: People have often asked me, oh, then why is it okay to redip a brush back into a makeup product or put your finger into a jar?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's different kinds of preservative systems that you need, correct?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody's touching something over and over again.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes and no.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, fundamentally, you're preserving a product, period.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And uh most products use the same right now.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think 90 plus percent of products use phenoxiethanol and ethylhexoglycerin as a preservative complex.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you're capped at using that at 1%.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just anytime I develop a product, that's kind of the default.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: If I have to use a different preservative system, it's a different story.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: But with that combo, that's what it's at.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's why phenxiethanol is usually the cutoff for the 1% line on an ingredients list.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but regardless, whenever you do a product, they're supposed to be challenge tested where you take that product and you inoculate it with specific bacteria, yeast, molds, um, and you are testing the robustness of that preservative system.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: That should happen to every product.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I do know T that some brands or testing facilities will sign off for product that has failed challenge testing, problematic.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: But to Angela's point, I don't have an issue with people doing the dropper bottle or dropper to the face and back in the bottle.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because theoretically, that product should be well preserved.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Theoretically.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: I still have an issue because it's unnecessary.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't have to do it.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: A thousand, you don't have to do it.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, to Angela's point though, the way a product is used is factored into okay, how are we formulating the product, developing the preservative system?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you could also have the standard preservatives.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's parabens, whether it's uh phenoxyethanol, ethyl ethahuxoglycerin, and then you have things that can also boost uh preservation.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of glycols support that.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Mm.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: To your point also about water being in the formula, it's less of an issue if it's like a waterless formula, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So thinking like color cosmetics, if you have like a powder blush.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: But then you get into other factors like starches are also um really good food for bacteria.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And because of like anti-talc sentiments, we're seeing a lot more starches.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or just in any capacity, starches have a lot of benefits in pressed powders, a lot of different applications.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, in any context, I think most products should be preserved regardless, but you don't always need a preservative.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Stick products, they're anhydrous, they're wax-based.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: The preservatives for those is just antioxidants, really.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what's funny about going back to clean beauty is because there's so many no-nos now, you're substituting things that actually require a heavier preservation.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's the same thing with DIYing stuff, which that I mean, totally separate issue, but I think especially a lot of these like smaller clean beauty brands are not taking this into account.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've heard of uh, I think we discussed here one brand where you know their formula was changing colors and they were trying to make it into some sort of selling point or something.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, well, what's that?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or I don't know, I've had products where you could see biofilm form in them.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like the if you are ever using a like liquid formula, like a toner, and you start to see like wispy kind of stuff forming in it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I would, it may not necessarily be from microbes, but I would not use that.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's uh why is my stick product growing mold?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Growing mold?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I back in the day, uh can I say brand names, Drunk Elephant?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: They had their little lip balm.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And a lip balm is an example of it's a stick product theoretically in hydris.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember specifically what that formula had, but you're also using it on your lips, which is like an area that can have other contaminants on it.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So like you're applying it and then you're sealing all that into the packaging.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one time I opened it and there was mold.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've had lip balms that like I reopen them and like they're the applicator style where it's like a gel that comes out of a and then I'm like, I smell mildew.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, time to throw it out, but why did that happen so soon?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: So to some degree, if you are inoculating something that is still water free, there's the potential for something to go bad.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's a clean brand that has just performed exceptionally well and kind of transcends being a clean brand?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Drunk elephant, probably.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, I mean, I'm not specifically talking about product performance.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think that they transcended being a clean brand and then they got into Sephora Kid territory, and now it's kind of shot them in the foot a little bit.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a lot of talk about how um, you know, they're owned by Shiseido, right?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, or Estee Lauder.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Shiseido.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they were doing numbers for Shiseido, and then after the whole Sephora Kid thing died down, like profits dropped.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that whole story was not about them being a clean brand.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Which story?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: The actual brand story?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: The well, the story of them getting huge in that sense.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's the thing is I remember them really taking off because of that whole Suspicious Six concept, and that was really their main selling point in from my era was like 2015, 16, 17.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Suspicious six or like seven-free nail polish.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: The owner is on record being like, I don't really believe in that, but it sells.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of brands can indirectly formulate to abide by Sephora clean standards without being clean or without having clean be a big part of the identity.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that there's any brand that transcended that whole thing?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: For some reason, I keep going back to pharmacy, but I'm like, that's their whole shtick, is that they are clean.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, really?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Part of it is that they are very, very clean, and the other part of it is that like everything's there's like a natural storyline to a lot of the things.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: They make good products.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like automatically think of them as a clean brand.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: I know they do free from claims.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I don't feel like it's particularly egregious or that they're like leaning into it.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: All I could think of with them is like the cleansing balm and like honey and everything.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: I hate that cleansing balm.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: You do?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm again, I'm a hater.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: We know this.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I never got the hype around it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's good, but it works.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't like it.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Damn.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like trying to think of color brands too.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Tart.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: What about hair?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, another thing.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sulfates.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, sulfate-free hair care.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people totally like switched up that narrative.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So people think that uh products with sulfates are not clean because it's often uh put into free-from claims.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: But the initial concern about sulfates were that they were irritating and drying, not that they were dangerous.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: And now people are getting it mixed up and being like, aren't they endocrine disruptors?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Aren't they bad for you?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And truth be told, it's not necessarily sulfates that make products like stripping and irritating.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's the overall formula.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually wrote about this my first year of my program.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's meat, there's ways of formulating with sulfates to mitigate and substantially reduce the irritation potential.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a curve, um, based off the amount of sulfate and the amount of the basically co-surfactant.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Usually it's coconutyl propo betane.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and depending on the ratio of those two together, you can basically eliminate all the irritation.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing with sulfates is that they're really good detergents.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: They're very good at cleansing, they're effective cleansers.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes you need a sulfate.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think, especially when you're trying to clarify the hair, that's something that I would look for.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think they need to be demonized.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think the overall formula matters more.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's for everything.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: For everything.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um my personal opinion, I think actually sulfate highlights this point really well, is when you start getting to clean alternates, alternative options, you're getting into higher price points.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because these alternatives, they cost more money, or you need multiple of them to do the same job as just one of the not clean ingredients.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, like you need a more comprehensive surfactant system if you're doing a sulfate-free formula, for example, to get the same level of detergency, efficacy, sensoriality.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that costs more.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, clean beauty, in my opinion, at least for a while, tended to price out lower socioeconomic communities.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: So then I'm like, okay, the poor communities, they have to use all the dirty products, the toxic products.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: That didn't make sense to me for a long time.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Nowadays, things are getting a lot more affordable, thank God.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: The innovation is becoming a little bit easier to manufacture, therefore, you can have cheaper formulas and thus that then transfers on to the consumer.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: But for a while, clean beauty was seen as like a luxury or more prestige price point.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's classist.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: But to that point, sulfate shampoos, I was looking at some from L'Oreal, super cheap.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And probably effective.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Very effective.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing for like Vaseline, petrolatum, petroleum-derived ingredients, horribly demonized because they're not clean, but they're super affordable.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't even know what that's about because uh petrolatum has an excellent safety profile.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, why?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just because it's derived from oil?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna get like it's not the same thing as I don't know, putting gasoline on your face.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not well, people they do not understand again the heavy restrictions and regulations and laws put in place to ensure what you're using in your cosmetics should be safe.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, with uh petrolatum, it's highly, highly, highly refined.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about this before on the podcast.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's an inert material, it's used as a medical device.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Can you see that?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like a um, yeah, yeah.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's got an OTC drug monograph.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a very safe ingredient.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that I've been seeing recently that's troubling, I'm on Threads and the European Commission uh on I don't know, uh, food and cosmetic safety or whatever, they keep posting chemophobic shit.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like what?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um they were like, oh, in in the US, like the chemical that's in your yoga mat might also be in your hamburger bun.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: I saw that.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I responded, like, in every country, uh, the main ingredient in windshield wiper fluid is also allowed to come out of your faucet because it's water.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, just because something's in two totally different things, one which you can consume and one which you can't, doesn't mean that it's dangerous.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Period.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they also there was something else that they said that I was just like, are you fucking kidding me with this?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, uh, it makes no sense.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think, like, yeah, also this appeal to nature fallacy, like it's like, oh, anything synthetic is bad.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: But then synthetic ingredients are still able to be classified as Sephora Clean, for example.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think Sephora Clean is just like abiding by European cosmetic regulations.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is it?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I didn't know.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think an iteration of it that years ago was definitely that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that I hate to see on these clean products or any products really, no synthetic fragrances.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's really natural fragrances that cause issues, irritation, and allergic reactions.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I don't know why that's a selling point.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, we're going with actually the more problematic option, but just because it's no synthetics, it's supposed to be better.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they're relying on people not knowing about the science of it.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, if that's part of the marketing and your audience isn't gonna know about it, then you're being irresponsible.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: What's interesting is I don't feel like clean translates well into color cosmetics as much.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And also in that regard, clean really does not allow for a lot of innovation or really fun, cool formulation concepts.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Danessa Myrix to me is a really good example where she makes they are safe, but she makes products that are fun, that they're interesting.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's no pressure or need for her to really abide by Sephora clean standards.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like one of the hottest brands at Sephora.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you could do it without that, I guess.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have heard though, like for some people, for some brands on the back end, they are getting told by certain retailers like, we want this from you, or we want that for you from you, we want to see more of this.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I guess it's a balancing act because those retailers can really mean a lot of exposure for a brand, but at the same time, it's like you don't want them dictating what you put out, including whether or not you're abiding by clean standards or not.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean at that point, I'm like the retailer will say that to a bunch of brands.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: You all launch the same product product at the same time.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, what's the point of that?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now everybody has lip balm out.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Back in the day, it was a here's a dark spot serum with niacinamite and vitamin C.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Easy enough.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but if you have 17 brands, literally 17 brands that have that same product.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you have people saying you can't use them together, which is incorrect.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: But fundamentally, when it comes to ingredients, especially what's clean, not clean, safety is the main focus.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's again what regulations are for.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is where toxicology comes into play.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a really good account on Instagram who kind of explains a lot of the concepts is Mo Skin Lab.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Toxicology is not in easy fields.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of math, a lot of science.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I think he does a really good job of breaking down a lot of those concepts.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So at least they're easier to understand.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he also addresses a lot of like current event focus misinformation.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so clean in beauty is not usually based in the actual science of toxicology.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're, you know, often not taking into account like the dose.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's been said many times, the dose makes the poison.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Even water can kill you in a great enough amount.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell The other one is people saying, like, oh, well, such chemical was found to be excreted in urine.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, Mo did a video this week because I guess an Australian something or other was talking about how different UV filters was found in the urine of kids.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: And Mo basically was like, so they kind of took a lot of things out of context.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: But even if it was, here's what this really means.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what, if there is any, what the concern actually is, and realistically, here's why you shouldn't necessarily be worried.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it it it does sound very close to those FDA studies and some of the chemical filters where they were like, oh, the level in the blood warrants more study, which where are the studies?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's been years, and people freaked out about it, and now they're being very anti avobento and oxybenzo and octinoxate, whatever for what reason?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just because something was found in the bloodstream doesn't mean that it's doing anything negative.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: A thousand percent.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And people are worried about that, whether you're like smoking their cigarettes, yeah, drinking their wine.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: What about that?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Clock that tea.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about that.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Anything else for this one?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: But with that, guys, stay dirty.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And make sure you give us five stars, thumbs up.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: What how how else do you rate things on podcasts?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: On YouTube, you can hype us up.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can leave a review on Apple.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can send a link for this episode in your family group chat.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or to friends.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: You could if you've got a friend that's a clean beauty head, send them this.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: If you have an ex that you really want to annoy, send them this.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I probably will.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Bye guys.