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Ali Hazelwood on The Love Hypothesis Hitting the Big Screen · Radio 831: A Romance Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to the Radio 831 Podcast. We're your hosts,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Sanjana Bhaskar and Tyler McCall, and we're so excited to
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: talk everything romance, from the novels and the tropes to
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: the book-to-screen adaptations and, of course, the drama of it all.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: You know, unpacking what the genre says about who we
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: are and how we love. Sanj, hello.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Hi.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I am so excited to be talking to you today.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Me too.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be talking to you every day.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: But I'm especially excited to be talking to you today
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: for a very special episode. We're doing things a little
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: differently today here at Radio 831 because today we have the.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: One, the only, the icon, Allie Hazelwood. Yes, indeed.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: And we yapped so long with Allie that we figured
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: we should yap less at the top and at the
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: back end. So we will be doing that. But first,
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: before we get into all the good stuff with Allie...
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: We are obviously chatting with Allie today about The Love Hypothesis,
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: both the book and the adaptation.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite romance novels. Sanj, how do
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: you feel about The Love Hypothesis? Oh, I hate it.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: You wouldn't believe. You're not allowed to say that. I'm
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: completely joking. It's one of my favorite books as well.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: The first time I read it, a friend of mine
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: had gotten the advanced copy and was like, Oh, my gosh.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: I think this is Raylo. Oh, so you were in it. Oh,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: from the beginning. I was in on the ground floor.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: I was making investments very early on. And I hadn't
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: really read a ton of Raylo until that point. I
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: haven't seen Star Wars. But I read the book and
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: it rocked my world. And it like put me back
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: in the space of fandom for the first time in
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: years and years of my life. But here's the thing.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: That's not even why I love that book. Like, it's
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: not even the rail of it all that really appeals.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I think, honestly, when you look at it closely, that's
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: not even required to love it and understand it. I
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: just read it and was like, I kind of think
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: this woman is in my walls a little bit. And
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I've felt like that about a lot of her work
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: ever since, where, like, it was one of those books
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: where I was like, oh, this is such a specific,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: thoughtful book. authorial voice. I'm just never not going to
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: love it. And that was correct.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Correct. How did you feel about it when you read it?
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: So it's funny because I was a Reylo stan. I
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: wasn't reading fan fiction. I was like kind of out
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: of my fan fiction era. But I watched those movies,
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: especially the second one, and was like very, very locked
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: into Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley in a way that
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: I remember during one of the movies, my husband leaned
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: over and literally was like, you have to calm down.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: You have to relax.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: And it's funny because I picked up the book because
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: I had seen people talking about it on TikTok and
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: didn't connect. Mind you, I saw the cover with my
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: own two operational eyes, did not connect that it was
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: Reylo fanfic.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Many such cases. But so I also had.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: That experience where I was like, I just love this
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: person's writing so much because I come from a fan
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: fiction background. I think that I really connect with writers
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: who come from a fan fiction background because it is
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: a specific kind of voice that you develop and a
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: specific kind of like type of storytelling that you develop.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: I loved it so much and I reread it ahead
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: of the movie just to kind of refresh myself.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: And I was like, damn, this is a banger. Well,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: here's the thing, right? Like in a lot of ways,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: it's a sort of like typical rom-com setup.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: There's fake dating. There are shenanigans. You know, there's the
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: like closed campus setting as a container for the story.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: But I think there are so many places where what
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: would otherwise be an ordinary premise becomes so great because
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: of voice, because of the clarity of voice. And I
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: think a lot about the end of that book. Spoiler,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: if you are one of the six people on this
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: planet who hasn't read it. The place where it becomes
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: like not just great, but exceptional for me is towards
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: the end when Olive speaks to Adam and is like,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: I don't understand why I lie like this. And I
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: think I still have to figure that out. But I
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: know that I want to figure it out with you.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: This is a terrible paraphrase of that conversation. And it's
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: one of those moments where I was like, oh, my gosh,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: this character is showing such insight and clarity about themselves.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: And also there was this idea for me that a
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: character doesn't have to be fully realized in order to
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: be worthy of love that Olive was confronting on page
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: that she is like infinitely this work in progress and
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: the process of falling in love exposed that for her
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: rather than fixed that part of her and so I
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: think there was this acknowledgement of the unknown within herself
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: and That felt like such an interesting character choice that
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, no, I love it so much.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, no.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, no, I love it so much. It's got me forever,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: you know? And I think that's why I wanted to
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: see it on screen.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Ali has also been so great at fully populating
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: her worlds in every one of her novels.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Like, I feel like.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: even the side characters and the friends and everything like
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: that feels so fully realized, which I.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Think is a good segue into the movie. So we
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: have seen the movie.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: I think that we were both on the same page
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: that it was an incredible adaptation of the work.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Kicking our feet, screaming, screaming, giggling.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Like actually, truly, I watched it with my roommate and
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: we had the time of our life. Like we were
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: just like clutching each other's hands and giggling the whole time.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Like I felt 14 again.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: I got the screener link from Amazon in the middle
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: of the afternoon and I was like, well, that's my day.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: I literally closed out. I was working on my actual
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: book and I was like, close that tab. That can wait.
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: I got to watch this right now. This just came
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: across my desk. And it's such a good adaptation because
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: it captures the spirit of what I think we both
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: loved about this novel. When we were talking about it afterwards,
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: like the side characters, like Jaboukie was amazing.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Fabulous. The comedic timing is really solid throughout. It's just
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: like a delight to watch.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: And put me on record as like Lily Reinhart is
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: insane for what she's been doing on this press tour,
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: mind you.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Did you see the Ever After dress? Did I? Absolutely,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: I saw it. Honestly, though, Tyler, I like can't look
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: her directly in the eye because I think I would
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: pass away. She is so beautiful.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: And I would like to tell you that I interviewed
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: her in person and she is that beautiful in real life,
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: like in normal real life without professional hair and makeup done.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: Like I interviewed her and I was like, I actually
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: have to excuse myself.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: She's so funny as Olive. Like I have to admit
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: that I was like, I didn't see the vision.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: I was like, interesting.
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: Like that doesn't really match in my head with how
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: I imagined Olive to be. And she totally sold it
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: for me.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I think it's her like flatter affect at times. She
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: is not who I would classify as an awkward person.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: And Olive is in many ways an awkward person. But
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: she does it well. I don't know that we give
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Lily Reinhart enough of her comedic chops, but she's very funny.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: She's very funny.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: I fully believe, I think it was Charles Melton who
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: called Riverdale like the Juilliard of television shows because all
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: those act like that. The range that they had to
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: do on that show of insane shit and they would
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: just throw new scripts at them like day of and stuff.
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: I think we need to be talking about Lily Reinhart more.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, a thousand percent agreed. A thousand percent. A thousand percent. Well,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: I think maybe we should introduce our guest. Needs no introduction,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: but just in case. But just in case, just in
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: case you're one of the six people on this earth,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: which God bless, you're in for such a beautiful journey. Yeah.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Our next guest is Allie Hazelwood, author of The Love Hypothesis,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: which is out on Amazon Prime now, but she's also
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: the author of other fabulous books such as Bride and
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Not in Love and Problematic Summer Romance and several audio
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: novels too that you can listen to. I could go
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: through her whole backlist, but actually at this point, that's
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: quite long. So I'm going to cut it off there.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: And in this world, she's a writer. In another world,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: a writer of many brain science articles and my dear friend.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I'm excited for her to come on. Allie, welcome to
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: the podcast. We are so delighted to have you on.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: It's such an honor.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Tyler and I got to watch The Love Hypothesis, by
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: the way, this week.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Oh my god.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: What did you think?
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: I liked it.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: I thought it was great.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: I thought it was amazing. I loved the changes that
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: they made.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: But I have to ask, what was it like to
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: see your stuff? Like, it's such a crazy thing to
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: have someone adapt your work for the screen.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: I don't think that my brain can conceive it. And
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: that is why I've been disassociating for the last six months.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: And I only feel alive when I am at a
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: BTS concert.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: When I went to set, they were like filming a scene...
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: that was outside and they had all these extras and
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: they were filming out like Caltech, but they had decked
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: it out like it was Stanford. And I remember thinking
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: these like 150 people or whatever who are working to
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: make this movie are there because at some point I
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: was bored and decided to write something. And I was like,
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: this is so weird and wrong and I don't deserve this.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: And why is no one out there making an Annalena
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Sting book into like a nice, smutty TV show for
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: the CW, you know, something like that?
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I want that as much as you. And I'm
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: really delighted that this happened.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: It's so weird to think about it. And it's also
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: even weirder to think about how good it is and
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: like how really everyone... is so fantastic. And I'm like,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: all these people put so much work to do something
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: that is just amazing.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I was also, like, really surprised. I mean, they did
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: make changes, right? Like, they did make these expansions to characters.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: And they had to.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: But they're huge.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Chunks that they really pulled from the book, which is
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: so great. There is this part where it's really dumb
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: and it probably is going to only be significant for me.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: But there is this part where like, I remember writing
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: it when I was writing the very first version, the
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: fan fiction, where like... I think she says something like,
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: but you're the keynote speaker. And he says, and I
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: keynote spoke. And I remember writing it.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, I remember that one.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: I remember writing it and making myself chuckle. And I
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: still remember my husband being like, what? And I told
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: him the joke and he was like, sure.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: And to like get to that point where now like
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: somehow he ended up on a screen like in a
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: movie and delivered by an actor who was so good
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: in his role. I'm like, wow, this just kind of
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: happened to me.
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I did want to ask you about visiting set
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: because actually, funnily enough, I interviewed Lily last October. We
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: finished the interview and she's like, I got to go
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: do like pickups for the Love Hypothesis and Ali's going
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: to be on set today.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, my God.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: I like fangirled more over that than I did over
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: like being in Lily Reinhart's house.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Ali Hazelwood.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: I really was curious what the experience of visiting set
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: was like and seeing these things that came from your
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: mind and your imagination brought to life like that.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Wait, also, did you cameo?
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: No, they wanted me to. And I said, over my
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: dead body. Part of it is just that it's been
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: a little bit more exposure than I... ever thought I
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: would have as a writer. And it's been a little
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: bit diff and a different type of exposure. Like Amazon
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: is like, oh, there's this, you know, paper that wants
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: to profile you when, or there are these questions for you.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, I just, I'm not comfortable with that
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: just because I have my, I'm just, just because I'm
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: insecure and weird, you know? It's been very, very weird
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: to have people be like, oh, we would love for
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: you to be in this movie. And I'm like, no, no,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: I can't. And I also don't want people to think
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: that it's because I'm not on board with the movie
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: or because I don't love the movie or the work.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: It's just literally me. I am a weirdo.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Well, it's also like writing is such a solitary activity
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: and publicity, PR and celebrity is really not.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I also think that I come across as an extrovert
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: because I really can be an extrovert sometimes. But, like,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that I am comfortable with, like, people
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: taking pictures of me or, like, doing a photo shoot
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: for this whatever. And they're like, we'll send a photographer
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: to your home. And I'm like, okay, great. I will
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: not be there. I will be gone at the grocery store.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: I will be somewhere else.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Goodbye. So, no, there is that thing.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: So I do not cameo, but I actually feel terrible
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: because I met Lily and I talked with her for, like,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: three seconds. And I... I'm scared that she thinks that
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I was hitting on her. I kept telling her how
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: beautiful and talented she was.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: She is really beautiful. That is exactly what I would
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: have done. I would have been like, you're so beautiful.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I did not have, like, she was trying to have
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: conversation with me. And she was like, oh, so you
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: live in Austin. And I'm like, you're so beautiful. I
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: love you. Thank you for doing this. Ah, hello. And
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, my God. She will never know that
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: I am a normal person. She will. That is going
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: to be her image of me. I can never meet
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: her again.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: I can't either. I'll tell you right now. I can't either. No.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: Because I also similarly embarrassed myself in Lily Reinhardt's house.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Where I was just like,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: you're so beautiful. I love that. I'm really curious what
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: the process.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: Of adapting the novel was like and like what surprised
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: you about that process.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: See, that's the thing. I was very uninvolved by request.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Like the first thing that I told the producer, Elizabeth,
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: when we met was like, I don't want to write
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: a script. I don't want to be involved. I don't
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: want like, I'm not very interested in doing something that
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: I have already done. And I haven't done the like,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: or I guess in spending time with these characters outside
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: of the time limit. that I am spending to write
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: like their story, because that would have just been revisiting
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: the same story over and over and over again. I
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: was like, you know, I could be writing Omegaverse, which,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: or reading Omegaverse, which probably I was doing statistically. So
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: I wasn't involved a lot, which is why this truly
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: has been such a validating experience for me because, you know,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: they did such a great job. And I think if
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: I had been involved, I would have just messed it up.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: And so now I never want to be involved in
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: anything again of my adaptations. Like, you know, clearly these
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: people know what they're doing. So I feel so validated
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: in my choice.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Did you want oversight on any of the process, like
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: casting or any of that? You were like, I don't
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: want to be involved.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: No, no, no. I knew about the casting, like, when
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: you guys knew about it, or like maybe a week before.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: I did, however, have a talk with the screenwriter, Sarah,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: like before she even wrote the script. So I think
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: this probably was like... in 2021? Like, I think it
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: was a couple of weeks after the book came out.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: And I remember she was like, what is it, something
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: that you absolutely would not want to change? And the
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: main thing for me at the time, because the book
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: used to be a fan fiction, like we've never hidden it.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: And the characters were inspired by real characters. What I
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: wanted was like the races of the characters to stay
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: the same. Like, you know, like, let's not like whitewash
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Anne or whatever, even though I admit that like, you know,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: it's her ethnicity is not the point of the story.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: But still, I just wanted to make sure that it
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: would be, you know, an Asian actress to have that role.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: That was really the only thing that I think I said.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: And then she was, like, asking me all this stuff. Like,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: what is it things that, like, people tell you? It's
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: their favorite part of the book. And I was like,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I like to pretend that no one
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: has read this book ever.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: So please.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Go online and find it out yourself.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: It's so fun getting to see these characters come to
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: life in this way. And so unexpected and strange. Like,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: this book means so much to so many people, whether
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: or not you choose to accept it.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: I think it means to other people more than it
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: means to me, for sure, at this point. It's just, like,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: a nature of, like, I have written a lot of
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: books and there are some that mean more and some
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: that mean less. And this one is not the one
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: that means the most to me. It's just, like, the
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: most successful.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: But I also.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: It's really funny. I have sort of accepted that I
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: will always be the author of The Love Hypothesis and
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: other things.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: In the world.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: And that is totally fine. Part of me was worried. Like,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: what if the movie is not good? Like, would people
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: be hurt? Like, how will they react? Because I have
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: seen it with other adaptations. But the truth is that
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: even if I had been hands-on, the number of people
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: who are involved in this process is so staggeringly large
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: that I don't think it would in any way... have
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: made a difference. So that's kind of why I pulled back.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: And then at the end, it's the perfect movie. So,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Trust the process and let other people do the work
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: for you. Exactly.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: And also, like, it's just that thing of, like, writing
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: is such a solitary activity where you, I mean, theoretically,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: at least, have more control. But in some ways, it's
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: like you just have to submit yourself to the process
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: of an adaptation. You just have to be like, this
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: is what's happening. And they did a great job. They
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: really did.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: And at some point, it's also a situation where, like,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I know that there would be people who would be like,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: my favorite scene, what I really wanted to see is
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: not in the movie or... The way I see, I
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: don't know, Olive is different. The way I see, I
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: don't know, what other characters is different. That's not like,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: it's not how I expected it. And I think my
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: response to that is you will always have the book.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Like the book and your interpretation of the book is
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: always going to be there for you at the end
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: of the day. I don't know, like a text doesn't
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: exist on its own in a vacuum. Like we all
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: make the meaning of the text as we read it.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: So a movie can never capture everything. everyone's experience of
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: the book.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: That's very sage and you come from a fandom background
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: and I think if you come from a fandom background
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: you're used to that like you're like I'm I've lived
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: through this kind of.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Experience totally yeah I know I get attached to things
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: and sometimes I get disappointed by things and no one
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: can take away your personal experience of a piece of
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: media Well, I think in this.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Way, I feel very pro-Death of the Author, which is,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: by the way, a really misunderstood piece of writing. Like,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: no one has actually read that essay. And everyone will
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: be like, oh, I'm anti-Death of the Author. And I'm like, well,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: read Barthes, and then we can talk about it.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: Whatever.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Anyway. Please don't make me read Barthes again. It's so short.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Please don't. It's so short. It's so readable. But there's
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: a part of the essay on the Death of the
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Author where he says that, like, in the process of reading,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: it is important to refuse the authority of God. Like,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: to deny the authority in this way, like to deny
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: the author, director, screenwriter, whatever it is, to deny that
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: authority to have this experience of a work that is
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: like wholly your own, which I think is like, one,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: that is the process of embarking on fan fiction. Two,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: like that is the process of reading any text. And three,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I think it's sort of the attitude to have about
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: adaptations too, where like this one is quite faithful and
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: you have to make meaning of it independent of... some
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: perceived authority about like what it should be. Like you
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: have to take something on its own merits, like explore
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: it and immerse yourself for what it is.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: I agree so much with you. So recently I got
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: an email from Fia Alvarez, who is the person who's
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: writing the script of Love Theoretically. And she was like...
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: would you like to talk so you can tell me
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: like things that you really really want to be in
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the book and she was like giving me examples and
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: the truth is that I don't consider myself like the
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: end all be all authority on my characters or my
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: books like I have written the book and I have
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: published it and then the book is yours the thing
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: is I cannot control the way a person is going
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: to approach it because we all come to this with
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: different experiences and different wishes and you know with our
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: own trauma and we're all going to connect with different things.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Of course, if you make one of my characters, like
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: in the adaptation, I don't know, a white supremacist, then
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: we're going to have words. But like aside from that, like,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: you know, like within the limits, I just don't feel
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: like there is. I don't know. I wasn't even sure
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: how to explain it to her. I was like, I
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: don't think we need to talk because I don't think
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: there is an Elsie or a Jack that is the
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: correct one that should be captured. I think however you
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: are approaching this is going to be you know, the
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Elsie and the Jack of the adaptation.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Allie, I love that position so much and I respect
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: it so much. And also I'm going to go back
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: on everything I just said. Send her my way. Yeah,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: I was about to say, I was like, I love this.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Give her my number.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: I love this so much. This is such a wise
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: and sage take. But also I will be texting you
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: after this, a list of things that she needs to
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: make sure she gets in that script.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: And in this case, I say, perhaps refuse the authority
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: of God. Do not, but do not refuse mine. That's
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: what I have to say about that.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: I have to tell you that literally we finished watching
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: and I was like, this made me want to love
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: theoretically adaptation so much.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: And Sandra's like, Tyler, you're making me so nervous.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Listen, I love To All the Boys. It's so funny
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: because I started writing the first version of The Love Hypothesis,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: so the fan fiction, literally the day after seeing To
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: All the Boys. And as you can tell from the
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: first scene, like the kiss is very much like a
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: fan fiction. Like it took elements of To All the Boys.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: And so when they were like, oh, the person who
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: adapted To All the Boys would like to write Love Theoretically,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: I was like, Done.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Done. Solved. Okay. Influences. Influences for writing. A lot of
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: people do not know how well-read you are in romance. Like,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: I think they're generally sort of aware of the fact that, like,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: you have a fanfic background, if they know, which I
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: think at this point a good chunk of the population,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: but like... I don't know that people know that you
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: are extremely well-read in romance genre fiction.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: And only that, really. I have one genre that I like,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: and it's romance.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Well, that and fantasy, right? Like, you are a well-read person.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: And I feel like you're so good about keeping... up
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: to date on like the ecosystem of romance at large
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: in your writing. What were your influences for this one
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: a million years ago when you wrote it?
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, for sure, like Sherry Thomas and Nalini Singh are,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: they are my mother's who raised me. And another book
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I have talked about to literally everyone who listens is Games.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Anna Maria Volkova's book that just came out like a
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: couple of months ago.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: And I just, I.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Want to read and write books about where people hurt
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: each other, and that is Sherry Thomas' blood running in
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: my veins. I'm getting to be profoundly uninterested in any
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: story in which people are not terrible to each other.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: And I don't know what that would mean.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: We have said this a lot. We have said this
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: a lot.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: I am glad. I'm glad.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that to be really interesting, too, because
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: I think there's a difference between, OK, this is a
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: little off the rails, but I think there's a difference
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: between what people say they want out of stories and
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: what they are actually loving about stories, where I think
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of people will say, oh, I disliked X, Y,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Z problematic element of this story or person or whatever
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: it is. And then I'm like, yeah, but these are
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: stories that are getting read. People are reading stories that
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: are high conflict, high angst, whether or not you feel
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: comfortable reading. saying that that's part of your taste. There's
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: a strange difference in the, like, performance of interest versus, like,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: actual human interest in complicated, messy stories about people who are, like,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: not great.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: I do think reading has become more of a public
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: endeavor where we talk about what we read and, like,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: you know, in a way, if you read problematic things,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: maybe you are a problematic person too. And so, especially
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: in contemporaries, if you're writing about bad people, there is this,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: or reading about bad people, there is this idea that
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: you are endorsing their behavior. I feel like people are
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: better separating that in fantasy or historicals, right? Because it
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: feels like a different setting and it feels like, oh, well,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: maybe their actions are happening within a different context. So
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I can excuse it and I can be okay with
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: these two horrible people banging or something.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think even the love hypothesis, though, does kind
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: of mess with that. Like, she spends a lot of
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: that book lying. She spends a lot of that book, like,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: compulsively lying, which is not considered a virtue, technically speaking.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: And yet, because this is the case with, like, stories, right? Like,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: she's a deeply sympathetic character because it is our flaws
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: and our baggage that, like, makes us deeply human and connected, right? Yeah.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And that is what Sherry Thomas has taught us, I think.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Look at Sherry Thomas. She has never written a character
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: who is not doing something truly terrible. My favorite Sherry
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Thomas is probably not quite a husband. Well, no, it's
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: my beautiful enemy. Not quite a husband. Literally, they are
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: both deeply terrible people who have hurt each other without
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: necessarily wanting to hurt each other. And I understand where either.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Of them comes from.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Like, it's the difference between relatable and likable, maybe.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: But these are the people I'm interested in reading about
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: right now. So.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, this is also one of the things
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: that I'm glad that they kind of preserved in the movie,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: that Adam is still a dick. And in fact, in
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: some ways, I feel like they played that part up,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: that he is like... Kind of a monster. He's a
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: scary supervisor to have.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's actually really funny because of the choices that
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: they have made. First of all, he's not a professor.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: He's like a postdoc. But it's really funny that he
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: has this like, he can fire people, right?
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. He would fire people on the spot. And that's
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: not quite what happens in academia, but like, because in
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: the movie logic, it makes sense. It's like, oh my God,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: he just fucking fired someone.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: I'm going to force you to talk about yourself one
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: more time and ask like how things have changed for
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: you since the love hypothesis came out. Like, how has
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: your approach to writing changed?
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I feel like, especially for the first couple of years
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: after the love hypothesis, it was very difficult for me.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: And I was also like, Mm-hmm. And the first couple
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: of years were rough, honestly. Like, those were the years
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: that I was still, like, moderately online. Like, I stopped
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: reading reviews pretty early, but I was still online and
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: I was still, like, coming across things. And a lot
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: of the writing that I did in the following couple
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: of years was very reactive to that. And either just, like,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: trying to replicate the wrong hypothesis or trying to, like...
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: do something completely different and see what was happening. But
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: then I think that I would argue probably in 2023,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: things got much better. But I did an event with
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Olivia Blake for her YA. And then we went to
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: dinner and we talked about having a very similar experience
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: because she had like the Atlas Six, her first book
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: was so successful. And then nothing else was going to
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: be as successful just because it was, you know, sometimes
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: you just have... A very successful book. And, you know,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: that's perfect for that timing. And, you know, that specific
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: sociopolitical situation in the world. Like we both viewed during
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: the pandemic, people were looking for a certain type of escapism.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: And she had the same situation where that book was
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: super successful. And then the others weren't as successful, even
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: though she's obviously a very successful writer. And I remember
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: she told me, basically, not in these words, but it
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: was basically like, stop bitching. Because... The fact that you
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: had such successful first book makes it so that you
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: can have contracts and you can write whatever the fuck
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: you want now. And I feel like the last two
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: years I've been so happy because it's true. Like, I
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: sort of went from these years of, like, being sorry
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: for myself. Oh, I will never be able to replicate
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: the success of Law Hypothesis. And now I'm like, who cares? Like,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I get to write whatever I want. I have the luck.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: of being able to go to my editor and tell her,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: this is like, have her like three or four sentences, like,
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: this is the book that I would like to write.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Is it okay?
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: And if she says to me, yes, I get.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: To write it.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: If she says no, I get to go elsewhere and
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: write it elsewhere or self-publish it or whatever. I guess
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: what I'm trying to say is it's been kind of
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: like an uphill battle. But once I got to the
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: point where I realized that I'm in a very privileged position,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: which I probably should have realized much earlier, writing has
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: become so much more fun and much more freeing.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: This goes to show just how little I understand about
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: publishing because the concept of the It feels so absurd
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: and crazy to me in a way.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: I just don't know. I don't know anything.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: That's like what it tells me. I just don't understand anything.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: That is true though. I understand that. Like I know
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: this because I see my sales. So, and I know like,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: you know, I get paid off of.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: My royalties, right?
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: So I know how much money I make through The
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Love Hypothesis and how much money I've made through my
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: other books. And I know that like, it's just like
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: not even comparable. I'm not complaining and I'm not saying, oh,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: poor me, I'm not as successful. But I think for
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: the first couple of years, it was more that I like,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I felt this sense that I owed it to everyone
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: around me because The No Way Apotheosis was successful because
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: everyone around me. It was a book of the month pick.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: A lot of influencers picked it up. My agent, she's
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: the one who sold the book. And I felt like
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: I owed it to them to produce a book that
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: would replicate that success.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: So many people talk about the experience of like, what
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: am I chasing? Like, what do I write for?
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: And that changes across the course of a long career.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: And like, Shifting the metrics from sales to creative freedom
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: is feels like a good perspective shift to me.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I know. And I don't know why I needed Olivia
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Blake to tell me, but she was fucking convincing.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: But truly, truly congratulations on writing something that like lives
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: on in this way for so many people and.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Has like been adapted.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: That is such a huge thing.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: Like so much stuff never gets made and this got made.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Allie, thank you so much for coming on and giving
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: us a slice of your day. It was so lovely
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: to chat love hypothesis with you. And I'm so excited
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: for everyone to watch it. Me too.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Because it was really lovely.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Call us and leave us a voicemail with your thoughts
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: at 833-831-LOVE. That's 833-831-5683.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: If you fell hard for what you heard here, get
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: episode notes delivered straight to your inbox by signing up
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: at 831stories. substack. com and share your recommendations and topic ideas in
• 30:46
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• 30:50
  Speaker 1: 831's monthly read-in-one-sitting romance novellas and sign up for a
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• 30:56
  Speaker 1: before anyone else. The ones also get a 20% discount
• 31:00
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• 31:04
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• 31:06
  Speaker 3: The Radio 831 Podcast is a production of iHeart Podcasts,
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: hosted by Sanjana Bhaskar and Tyler McCall. The show is
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: produced by Liz Smith, and for iHeart, our supervising producer
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: is Emily Marinoff. Special thanks to the whole iHeart team,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: and especially Allie Perry and Allison Cantor-Graber. Our executive producers
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: are Claire Mazur and Erica Cerullo. Our music is Domino
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: by James Ryan Carr and Love Is What You Do
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: by Alibi.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: We'll be sharing the love here again next week.