Latest / The Impossible Life / 338. When Mercy Becomes Dangerous - Forgiveness, Violent Crime, Justice & Mercy

Transcript

338. When Mercy Becomes Dangerous - Forgiveness, Violent Crime, Justice & Mercy · The Impossible Life

0:02
Speaker 1: It makes you realize forgiveness is such a human nature issue, right?
0:06
Speaker 1: You've wronged me. And I take that personally, right? And
0:09
Speaker 1: so that's why it's also within our power to forgive.
0:11
Speaker 1: And as I said, forgiveness, like forgiving someone doesn't mean
0:16
Speaker 1: the person didn't do any wrong. What you're saying is
0:19
Speaker 1: I'm not going to allow this to stay in my
0:22
Speaker 1: heart and corrupt my heart.
0:24
Speaker 2: That's impossible. Let me tell you what I believe. Your
0:28
Speaker 2: weakness is not your technique. don't think you are no
0:35
Speaker 2: you are the impossible life podcast you're sitting on a
0:39
Speaker 2: winning lottery.
0:40
Speaker 1: Ticket an idea that is fully formed fully understood that.
0:44
Speaker 3: Sticks this is the impossible life podcast because nick and
0:51
Speaker 3: i are attempting to live impossible lives what we know
0:55
Speaker 3: is that nothing is impossible So instead of using impossible
0:59
Speaker 3: as an excuse to not try, we'll use the pursuit
1:02
Speaker 3: of impossible as an accelerant for greatness. If something's never
1:06
Speaker 3: been done before, that just means it's unexplored. If they
1:10
Speaker 3: tell you it's too hard, it's just waiting to be simplified.
1:15
Speaker 3: Impossible is a default label used by uncourageous people, unwilling
1:20
Speaker 3: to take a risk.
1:21
Speaker 2: The real truth is this.
1:23
Speaker 3: The solution to any impossible task starts with this question.
1:28
Speaker 2: If I had to, what would it take?
1:35
Speaker 4: Welcome to another episode of the Impossible Life Podcast. I'm
1:37
Speaker 4: your co-host, Nick Surface, and I'm looking across at a
1:39
Speaker 4: man so independent he decided to start his own university
1:42
Speaker 4: rather than attend any of the established institutions.
1:45
Speaker 2: That's right, friends, the former Navy SEAL. Garrett Unklebach, a
1:52
Speaker 2: man who got a bachelor's of hard to.
1:53
Speaker 4: Kill from hard dog university. It's a future establishment. You
1:58
Speaker 4: can send your kids there for launching scholarships.
2:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:00
Speaker 1: You know, it's, I might've been just a pinch ahead
2:04
Speaker 1: of my time when I was looking at the university
2:07
Speaker 1: system and I said, you know what?
2:09
Speaker 2: Maybe that's not for, there's something missing here.
2:11
Speaker 4: Anyways, today is not the shoot down traditional university episode,
2:15
Speaker 4: but you can find that in many episodes because it
2:17
Speaker 4: is a common thread in our thinking. Anyways, yeah, I
2:21
Speaker 4: could get distracted, but I'm not going to.
2:24
Speaker 1: I did recently have someone who's a famous billionaire say
2:30
Speaker 1: to me, he goes, oh, you didn't go to college either.
2:32
Speaker 2: He's good for you, son. I go, sir, thank you.
2:35
Speaker 1: I'm also not a verified math genius who skipped college,
2:38
Speaker 1: but I'll take that.
2:39
Speaker 2: I know who you're talking about. And yeah, well, whatever.
2:42
Speaker 2: Math genius, Navy SEAL. They're like in the same category.
2:46
Speaker 4: Get an education. You just don't always have to pay
2:48
Speaker 4: for one. Yeah, that's exactly it. And there's some places
2:51
Speaker 4: like if you want to be a doctor, yes, you
2:53
Speaker 4: do need to go to university. There are established paths,
2:55
Speaker 4: but I think by and large for the common person,
2:59
Speaker 4: university is not going to necessarily make you better the way.
3:01
Speaker 2: It's set up.
3:01
Speaker 5: Anyways.
3:02
Speaker 2: That's not what we're talking about today.
3:03
Speaker 4: It's not what we're talking about today, but I just
3:04
Speaker 4: wanted to finish the point since you decided to continue on.
3:07
Speaker 4: So today we're talking about forgiveness versus mercy. And that
3:10
Speaker 4: might be something where you're like, oh, well, you know,
3:13
Speaker 4: whatever I know, forgiveness and mercy is all good.
3:15
Speaker 2: Great. I'm going to shut off. I don't need this episode.
3:17
Speaker 4: I promise you, you need this episode because when you
3:20
Speaker 4: actually understand what they are and you understand the application,
3:24
Speaker 4: there's currently a big trial. That's the talk of everything
3:26
Speaker 4: in America, which is the Lindsay Clancy trial, which we're
3:28
Speaker 4: actually going to apply this towards. So stick around because
3:32
Speaker 4: I think that this is one of those ones that
3:33
Speaker 4: when you understand the wisdom.
3:35
Speaker 2: Are, are we would.
3:37
Speaker 1: By the way, it's not the reason we set out
3:39
Speaker 1: to do this episode. This one's actually, this topic has been,
3:42
Speaker 1: on our roster for a little bit. We are just
3:44
Speaker 1: going to touch on some of the current events around
3:48
Speaker 1: this trial. But like Nick was saying, stick around for
3:50
Speaker 1: this because even if you don't feel like you have
3:52
Speaker 1: an issue with unforgiveness or understanding what mercy is, the
3:57
Speaker 1: takeaway that I want everyone to have from today's episode
4:00
Speaker 1: is really going to be around wise application of this
4:03
Speaker 1: in the same way that culture is wrestling so hard
4:06
Speaker 1: with this very public trial. And the reason culture is
4:10
Speaker 1: struggling with it is the same reason that you will
4:12
Speaker 1: listen to this episode. It's because there's a lack of
4:15
Speaker 1: understanding of wise application of forgiveness and mercy. And the
4:19
Speaker 1: ideal takeaway for anyone today is that as we talk
4:22
Speaker 1: through forgiveness, as we talk through mercy, as you get
4:24
Speaker 1: a better understanding of these, one, you'll understand why it's
4:27
Speaker 1: so hard.
4:27
Speaker 2: But two, you'll be better prepared for when it's in
4:30
Speaker 2: your hands.
4:31
Speaker 5: Right.
4:31
Speaker 2: And it is in your hands if you're a parent.
4:33
Speaker 4: If you have a relationship with literally anybody, you are
4:35
Speaker 4: going to come across this.
4:36
Speaker 2: So big one. Anyways, let's dive in, G.
4:39
Speaker 4: I was recently the recipient of either forgiveness or mercy
4:42
Speaker 4: or both. And I'm going to hope that people will
4:44
Speaker 4: start to understand what it was when we come over.
4:47
Speaker 4: Because I was driving over to your house because we
4:50
Speaker 4: needed to record something. And I made the journey that
4:52
Speaker 4: I often make to your house, which it takes 11 minutes,
4:54
Speaker 4: according to Waze. I can usually do it in seven
4:56
Speaker 4: to nine minutes, depending on traffic and whether the lights are.
4:59
Speaker 2: How many red lights you run? All of them.
5:02
Speaker 4: Literally all of them, because when I'm coming over at 5.30,
5:04
Speaker 4: I stop, I look around.
5:05
Speaker 2: If there's no one there, I just go. Well, I
5:07
Speaker 2: was coming over a little later in the day.
5:08
Speaker 4: At 7 a.m., but I have been conditioned that I
5:10
Speaker 4: don't really need to pay attention to traffic laws when
5:13
Speaker 4: I come over to your house. So I'm driving down
5:15
Speaker 4: the road that I drive by near my house on
5:17
Speaker 4: the way there all the time, and man.
5:19
Speaker 2: Boo, I got lit up, and I just was like, oh,
5:22
Speaker 2: you idiot. I was just not even looking. Boom roasted.
5:25
Speaker 2: Boom roasted.
5:25
Speaker 4: Now, I'm coming to your house to just do a
5:26
Speaker 4: quick recording, so the only thing I have with me
5:28
Speaker 4: is my laptop.
5:30
Speaker 2: Pull over.
5:31
Speaker 4: The nice officer comes up to my thing. Hey, you,
5:34
Speaker 4: you know, do you know how he shows me his gun?
5:35
Speaker 4: You know how fast you're going son? I was like,
5:37
Speaker 4: it was 59 and a 45. He's like, what's the
5:39
Speaker 4: big hurry? I was like, I'll be honest. I just
5:41
Speaker 4: wasn't really paying attention, which was true. I was just
5:43
Speaker 4: trying to go around this car that was in my way.
5:45
Speaker 4: And he's like, all right, let me see your license.
5:46
Speaker 4: And I'm like, I tapped my pocket and I'm like,
5:49
Speaker 4: I left my wallet at home because like I said,
5:50
Speaker 4: I'm just going to my friend's house real quick.
5:51
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't have that. Just raise your hands.
5:53
Speaker 2: I'm an idiot. And this is exactly what he says.
5:56
Speaker 2: He goes, Oh, Oh, for two.
5:57
Speaker 4: And I'm like, hold on. He's like, do you have
5:59
Speaker 4: a picture or the number? I was like, oh yeah,
6:00
Speaker 4: I think I got a picture on my computer, which
6:02
Speaker 4: I do. So I'm pulling that up. He looks over
6:04
Speaker 4: while I'm pulling this thing up. He's kind of looking around.
6:06
Speaker 4: He's like, so this registration tag on your car from 2025,
6:11
Speaker 4: he's like, you haven't registered the car? I'm like, oh no,
6:14
Speaker 4: I actually have the registration here in my center console.
6:16
Speaker 2: I just haven't put it on.
6:17
Speaker 4: He's like, so you mean to tell me you've been
6:18
Speaker 4: driving around for a year with the wrong tag on?
6:20
Speaker 4: He's like, oh, for three. And I'm just sitting there.
6:23
Speaker 4: I'm like, dude, I have your dad's voice in my
6:25
Speaker 4: head going, if the shoe fits, wear it. I'm like,
6:27
Speaker 4: I have no defense. I'm just like, yeah, I'm about
6:29
Speaker 4: to get hammered. Honestly, I deserve it. I was going
6:32
Speaker 4: too fast.
6:33
Speaker 2: I didn't bring my license.
6:34
Speaker 4: All stupid things that I could sit there and give
6:36
Speaker 4: a reason for, but I was ready to take my
6:38
Speaker 4: medicine at this point.
6:39
Speaker 2: I text her. I'm like, bro, I just got pulled over.
6:40
Speaker 2: I'm running late. You're like, well, yeah, unlucky. I just said,
6:45
Speaker 2: I think I'm about to get hammered. The guy comes.
6:48
Speaker 4: He's back there doing his thing. I'm calculating the amount
6:50
Speaker 4: of the ticket that I'm going to have to pay.
6:52
Speaker 4: I'm like, man, It's not what I want, but I
6:54
Speaker 4: was like, no matter what, when this guy comes back,
6:55
Speaker 4: I'm going to thank him for doing his job because
6:57
Speaker 4: I'm being an idiot and I can't really defend myself.
7:00
Speaker 4: To my surprise, he comes back up and he goes,
7:03
Speaker 4: I'm only going to do this one time. And he
7:05
Speaker 4: just hands me a warning and he goes, get that
7:08
Speaker 4: tag on. Now, I will say, I think he made
7:11
Speaker 4: the right call because I took my knife when I
7:13
Speaker 4: got back to my house and he immediately swapped my
7:15
Speaker 4: tag out. And since then, because I only had, so
7:17
Speaker 4: I basically put my new tag on.
7:19
Speaker 2: For three weeks. And I've since renewed my registration and
7:22
Speaker 2: that new tag's already on there. So well done officer.
7:24
Speaker 2: I am a good.
7:25
Speaker 4: Recipient of your, uh, forgiveness and mercy. But the question
7:28
Speaker 4: I would have was, did I get forgiveness or did
7:31
Speaker 4: I get mercy? And would, would like, what should I
7:33
Speaker 4: have been mad if that guy gave me a ticket? Because, Hey,
7:36
Speaker 4: I was just trying to do something. I'm a productive
7:37
Speaker 4: member of society. Go get the bad guys. I'm not
7:40
Speaker 4: really doing anything wrong. These are like little things that
7:43
Speaker 4: aren't that, that happen all the time that are small, uh,
7:47
Speaker 4: I would say small examples of much larger concepts that
7:50
Speaker 4: we are going to grasp today. So I was the
7:52
Speaker 4: recipient of mercy.
7:53
Speaker 1: I'm going to hold my opinion on the registration stickers,
7:56
Speaker 1: but it's a great story.
7:58
Speaker 2: Okay.
8:00
Speaker 4: I'll get that one from you offline. So we see
8:03
Speaker 4: this all the time, and people are going to complain.
8:06
Speaker 4: They're going to go through that. But I think a
8:07
Speaker 4: common saying for how people understand mercy and where we
8:11
Speaker 4: come in contact, people will say this.
8:12
Speaker 2: They'll say, grace is getting what you don't deserve. Mercy
8:15
Speaker 2: is not getting what you do deserve.
8:16
Speaker 4: And that helps us to give a real simple understanding
8:19
Speaker 4: of the difference between grace and mercy. And then we
8:22
Speaker 4: have forgiveness thrown in there as well. And it's like, well,
8:24
Speaker 4: forgiveness is divine. You should just not hold things against people.
8:29
Speaker 4: And so we have these concepts. But as always, if
8:32
Speaker 4: you don't really dive in and understand what these things mean,
8:35
Speaker 4: you can walk around and really miss the power.
8:37
Speaker 2: Of the truth. I think understanding the difference here will....
8:42
Speaker 1: One, help you walk deeper with God, have greater reverence
8:45
Speaker 1: and awe for God. I think this will help you
8:47
Speaker 1: raise your children. I think this will help you deal
8:49
Speaker 1: with difficult situations. Sometimes we're in the middle of it,
8:54
Speaker 1: or sometimes we're on either side of it, either needing mercy,
8:57
Speaker 1: the one who can give mercy, or stuck in the
8:58
Speaker 1: middle trying to figure it out. So let's kind of
9:01
Speaker 1: just dive in here. I'm going to define and talk
9:03
Speaker 1: about forgiveness, right? And there's just, just in what we're
9:06
Speaker 1: going to talk about in forgiveness, there's great takeaways here.
9:09
Speaker 1: there might be some unlocks for folks. And we're going
9:11
Speaker 1: to talk about mercy. Then we'll have a conversation around
9:15
Speaker 1: how do we deal with both? How do you both forgive?
9:17
Speaker 1: How do you get mercy? And because mercy sits in
9:21
Speaker 1: between an understanding of love and law, and how do
9:24
Speaker 1: we meet both requirements? So let's just dive in. First off,
9:27
Speaker 1: Scripture tells us that we're commanded to forgive.
9:30
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's very black and white.
9:33
Speaker 1: Matthew 6, verse 14 and 15. For if you forgive
9:37
Speaker 1: other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father
9:39
Speaker 1: will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive
9:43
Speaker 1: others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
9:47
Speaker 2: And what is forgiveness?
9:49
Speaker 1: I think this is so, if you zoom out and
9:52
Speaker 1: you really look through a theological lens, forgiveness is a
9:56
Speaker 1: divine opportunity. Okay, what is divine? By the way, I
9:59
Speaker 1: use that word on this show a lot. Divine is godlike, right?
10:03
Speaker 1: Is of a godly nature. Forgiveness is a divine opportunity
10:07
Speaker 1: for us as earthly creatures. It is an opportunity for
10:11
Speaker 1: us to not hold anger in our hearts because that,
10:14
Speaker 1: I mean, holding on, it's making it personal. You did
10:17
Speaker 1: this to me, right? And that's different than just the
10:21
Speaker 1: consequence of law. It's me wanting you to get hurt.
10:24
Speaker 5: Right.
10:25
Speaker 1: Me wanting you to pay a price. I'll feel better
10:28
Speaker 1: when you're hurt the way that I was hurt.
10:30
Speaker 2: Right. It's eye for an eye, right?
10:32
Speaker 1: And that eye for an eye nature, which is unforgiveness,
10:36
Speaker 1: that eye for an eye nature is sinful and corrupting.
10:39
Speaker 1: When you keep that attitude in your heart, in your
10:43
Speaker 1: mind of, I want you to get hurt. I want revenge.
10:46
Speaker 2: I want you to pay a price for what you did.
10:49
Speaker 2: It corrupts our very nature.
10:51
Speaker 1: So I say that again, forgiveness is a divine opportunity
10:55
Speaker 1: for an earthly creature. God doesn't deal with that. God
10:57
Speaker 1: doesn't have that problem of like, I want you to
10:59
Speaker 1: be hurt. God doesn't take it personal. That's very much
11:02
Speaker 1: a human thing.
11:03
Speaker 2: And that's what I mean. Forgiveness is a.
11:05
Speaker 1: Divine opportunity to forgive and to let go. is to
11:09
Speaker 1: take on righteousness, to take on God-like qualities where we
11:13
Speaker 1: have such a tendency to be emotional and.
11:15
Speaker 2: Take it personal.
11:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, let me ask you a question on that, because
11:18
Speaker 4: I think you, and I want to highlight something you said.
11:20
Speaker 2: When you talk about it's a.
11:21
Speaker 4: Divine opportunity, if we're made in the image and likeness
11:24
Speaker 4: of God, there is nothing, there's no higher level than
11:27
Speaker 4: we can reach than to be like our Father. Jesus
11:29
Speaker 4: was the greatest man who ever walked the earth.
11:32
Speaker 2: He's 100% God, 100% man.
11:33
Speaker 4: And he reflected the Father perfectly. So forgiveness becomes this
11:37
Speaker 4: huge opportunity. But do you think that some people are
11:39
Speaker 4: more naturally wired to forgive than others? Because personally, I've
11:44
Speaker 4: never found it hard to forgive. And I thought about it.
11:48
Speaker 4: I don't know if it's something from my childhood. I
11:49
Speaker 4: haven't been able to pinpoint it. But there's other people
11:51
Speaker 4: who struggle big time.
11:52
Speaker 1: It is a heart issue. And your heart is, there's
11:56
Speaker 1: natural temperament that you have. But your heart is also
11:58
Speaker 1: shaped by Your walk with God and your heart is
12:01
Speaker 1: also shaped by what you've been through.
12:03
Speaker 5: Right.
12:04
Speaker 2: For example, okay, let me make this simple.
12:06
Speaker 1: You've met people, so have I, who are not people
12:10
Speaker 1: who have a relationship with God. And you, like, just
12:13
Speaker 1: like we're talking about two different people, neither of them
12:15
Speaker 1: have a relationship with God.
12:16
Speaker 2: You've met some people who have maybe a better heart
12:18
Speaker 2: than others.
12:19
Speaker 5: Right.
12:19
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, 100%. Right.
12:20
Speaker 1: Some of that is shaped by their beliefs and the,
12:24
Speaker 1: you know, experiences that they've been through in life. And
12:27
Speaker 1: you bring up a great point. Because really, what's this
12:30
Speaker 1: all about? I was watching the episode of, or was
12:34
Speaker 1: listening to the episode of Diary of the CEO. You know, Steven,
12:38
Speaker 1: that's his show. Well, he had Wes Huff on. So
12:40
Speaker 1: that's why I wanted to listen to it. And he
12:43
Speaker 1: asked a really good question.
12:44
Speaker 2: Steven did.
12:45
Speaker 1: See, he's a great interviewer. And if it's people that
12:48
Speaker 1: I like, I do appreciate it. He does a really
12:50
Speaker 1: good job.
12:50
Speaker 2: He's a great interviewer.
12:52
Speaker 1: He was asking, he basically, what Steven was saying to
12:55
Speaker 1: Wes was, you know, I'm a good person.
12:58
Speaker 2: But I don't believe in God. Am I going to hell?
13:01
Speaker 2: And Wes's answer was so good.
13:02
Speaker 1: You know, like he said, Stephen, I desire for you
13:06
Speaker 1: to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. And then he
13:08
Speaker 1: answers the question, but Stephen, the conversation they're having is
13:11
Speaker 1: Stephen's like, well, I'm, I'm a good person. And I
13:14
Speaker 1: bet you, Stephen is a good person.
13:15
Speaker 5: Yeah.
13:16
Speaker 2: But, and this is where, this is a good wrestling point.
13:19
Speaker 1: When people make that argument, it's also a good wrestling,
13:21
Speaker 1: a point around the matter that we're talking about today.
13:25
Speaker 2: You may think that you're good.
13:27
Speaker 1: Um, This is like you having $ 50 and saying you're rich. Well,
13:31
Speaker 1: you're rich compared to $ 0.
13:33
Speaker 2: Right.
13:34
Speaker 1: But are there not people who maybe have a little
13:36
Speaker 1: bit more wealth than you? And this is what we
13:39
Speaker 1: do with our own goodness in comparison to God. Like
13:42
Speaker 1: we have $ 50 and God has a number that we
13:45
Speaker 1: can't fathom, right? Maybe you possess some ounce of goodness,
13:49
Speaker 1: but the Bible actually talks about this. It says that
13:51
Speaker 1: it is filthy rags. compared to the righteousness of God.
13:55
Speaker 1: And what we should always be desiring, like it is,
13:57
Speaker 1: and this is the argument I make when I have
14:00
Speaker 1: conversations like that with people like Steven, I don't say
14:04
Speaker 1: you're wrong, I say you're missing it. You have called,
14:07
Speaker 1: like you're saying you've climbed a mountain and you've stood
14:09
Speaker 1: on top of a hill. I'm telling you there's a
14:11
Speaker 1: higher mountain. And when people who really wrestle with eternity
14:16
Speaker 1: and wrestle with greatness, and you tell them, you think
14:19
Speaker 1: you stood on a high mountain, I said, there's way
14:20
Speaker 1: higher mountains, I've seen them. that's one of the best
14:23
Speaker 1: seeds that you can plant in people like that to
14:25
Speaker 1: get them to question, not that I'm wrong, but maybe
14:28
Speaker 1: I've missed what really... Maybe I'm not seeing the whole thing.
14:30
Speaker 1: I'm not seeing the whole thing. There's a deeper truth.
14:32
Speaker 1: And as it relates to forgiveness, as it relates to mercy,
14:35
Speaker 1: what we're seeking after is not like, well, what's good
14:39
Speaker 1: in here? But the question is what's best. And we're
14:41
Speaker 1: gonna get to that in the climax. That's the difficult
14:43
Speaker 1: wrestling point. So again, what is forgiveness? Forgiveness is a
14:46
Speaker 1: divine opportunity for us as earthly creatures. It's letting go
14:50
Speaker 1: of the anger in our heart Forgiveness reveals the strength
14:55
Speaker 1: of your character and it reveals your trust in God.
14:59
Speaker 1: When you see your children learn to forgive, you're seeing
15:02
Speaker 1: their character get built.
15:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, big time.
15:04
Speaker 1: It's saying, I'm not going to take this personal anymore.
15:08
Speaker 1: My character and virtue is going to surpass my level
15:11
Speaker 1: of emotion and my level of humanity. There's a really
15:15
Speaker 1: important distinction that I want you to understand about forgiveness
15:18
Speaker 1: is that it is always your choice. Forgiveness is always
15:22
Speaker 1: within your power. No one takes it away from you.
15:25
Speaker 1: You can forgive at any time, right? And you can
15:29
Speaker 1: forgive someone even if they don't apologize. You can forgive
15:32
Speaker 1: someone even if they're not safe for you to be around,
15:36
Speaker 1: you know, socially or even like.
15:38
Speaker 2: You know, personally. I mean, it's a dangerous person. It's
15:40
Speaker 2: a murderer or a rapist or something like that.
15:42
Speaker 4: Erica Kirk is a great example of a very public
15:44
Speaker 4: forgiveness that she came out at her husband's funeral and said,
15:47
Speaker 4: I forgive the guy who shot him in the neck.
15:49
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Crazy. Yeah. And she doesn't want to be around
15:51
Speaker 2: that person. Correct.
15:53
Speaker 1: But what she was saying is, I'm not going to
15:55
Speaker 1: hold this in my heart and wish vengeance on you.
15:57
Speaker 5: Right.
15:57
Speaker 1: You can forgive someone at any time. You forgiving someone
16:01
Speaker 1: also doesn't mean, like you can forgive someone even if
16:03
Speaker 1: they still deserve punishment. Right. Like that person who killed
16:07
Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk, someone who murders, someone who rapes, who commits
16:11
Speaker 1: some of these terrible sins, you can forgive them and
16:14
Speaker 1: they still deserve punishment.
16:17
Speaker 4: Real quick, you said something there because... the forgiveness is
16:20
Speaker 4: more for you than it is for the other person.
16:23
Speaker 4: Because in the examples that we're giving, the other person,
16:25
Speaker 4: I don't think like Charlie Kirk's killer was like, oh,
16:27
Speaker 4: I feel better now. I think he already was like, yeah, great.
16:29
Speaker 4: I did exactly what I wanted to do. And we're
16:31
Speaker 4: not going to get into any controversy about all this
16:33
Speaker 4: stuff in there. But assuming that it's as simple as
16:35
Speaker 4: we just made it out, it's for her. Because like
16:39
Speaker 4: you said, it's like, I'm not going to hold this
16:41
Speaker 4: in my heart. And I think a lot of times
16:43
Speaker 4: the thought process, like what you said, that the person
16:45
Speaker 4: should pay some penance, It's this feeling that like, because
16:49
Speaker 4: we're wronged, they have to earn it back or they
16:52
Speaker 4: have to pay some pence or they need to be
16:53
Speaker 4: wronged as well. And it doesn't like in that case,
16:56
Speaker 4: it doesn't make any difference to that person if they
16:58
Speaker 4: don't care or not. It's 100% about changing your own
17:01
Speaker 4: condition when you give forgiveness. And I think a lot
17:03
Speaker 4: of times we look at it as like this high
17:05
Speaker 4: lofty virtue and we're commanded to give it. And it's
17:08
Speaker 4: really like so many things that God says. The reason
17:10
Speaker 4: he's telling us to forgive and if our Father won't
17:13
Speaker 4: forgive us, it's for our own good. Walking around holding
17:16
Speaker 4: this stuff, and it sounds obvious, but one of the
17:18
Speaker 4: best things I ever heard said about it was holding
17:21
Speaker 4: on forgiveness is like setting yourself on fire and hoping
17:24
Speaker 4: the other person dies.
17:25
Speaker 2: Of smoke inhalation. And I think people, somehow we miss that.
17:29
Speaker 4: We miss that we're damaging our own heart, our own mind,
17:32
Speaker 4: and walking around with this bitterness and this weight in
17:35
Speaker 4: us when we don't forgive.
17:36
Speaker 2: This is.
17:38
Speaker 1: Does, does the sky ask the barren ground for forgiveness? No,
17:44
Speaker 1: that sounds, that's like a left hook of a question.
17:46
Speaker 1: It's like, what are you even talking about?
17:48
Speaker 2: Right. Because those things are not personified. Right. They're not
17:52
Speaker 2: people right now.
17:53
Speaker 1: Like when you, when you look at the barren ground,
17:55
Speaker 1: like I'm thinking about West Texas right now, like don't
17:57
Speaker 1: strike a match.
17:58
Speaker 2: Oh man. You know, the whole thing is going to
17:59
Speaker 2: catch on fire.
18:00
Speaker 5: Yeah.
18:01
Speaker 1: Does the sky ask the ground for forgiveness when it
18:03
Speaker 1: says like, sorry, I haven't given you any rain in
18:05
Speaker 1: a long time. That's just the way that the world works.
18:08
Speaker 1: Forgiveness is a human nature thing, right? You could say like, man,
18:13
Speaker 1: the sky has wronged the ground in West Texas, but that's, that's,
18:16
Speaker 1: it just seems weird. It doesn't even fit the conversation
18:18
Speaker 1: that we're having. And the reason I'm bringing up this
18:21
Speaker 1: strange comment is it makes you realize forgiveness is such
18:25
Speaker 1: a human nature issue, right? You've wronged me. And I
18:28
Speaker 1: take that personally. And so that's why it's also within
18:31
Speaker 1: our power to forgive. And as I said, forgiveness, like
18:35
Speaker 1: forgiving someone doesn't mean the person didn't do any wrong.
18:39
Speaker 1: What you're saying is, I'm not going to allow this
18:42
Speaker 1: to stay in my heart and corrupt my heart.
18:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, very good.
18:45
Speaker 1: This is why the Bible commands it. It's for our
18:48
Speaker 1: own good. And Romans 12, 19 says this, do not
18:54
Speaker 1: take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath.
18:59
Speaker 1: For it is written, it is mine to avenge. I
19:02
Speaker 1: will repay, says the Lord. So part of this, part
19:05
Speaker 1: of forgiveness is understanding that I'm not the one who's
19:08
Speaker 1: going to do justice here. It says, do not take revenge,
19:11
Speaker 1: my dear friends. Give that to God. Leave room for
19:14
Speaker 1: God's wrath. For it is written, it is mine to avenge.
19:16
Speaker 2: I will repay.
19:17
Speaker 1: When I'm forgiving, I'm letting go. I'm saying, this is
19:20
Speaker 1: the greatest good that I can do is let this
19:23
Speaker 1: thing go. And I can say that is absolutely true
19:25
Speaker 1: for anyone who's listening to this, regardless of whatever you're
19:28
Speaker 1: going through. That doesn't mean that someone who hurt you
19:32
Speaker 1: doesn't deserve punishment. But what I'm saying is you must
19:35
Speaker 1: forgive that person. Because if you don't, it's hurting you.
19:40
Speaker 1: You're giving it up to God. God will deal with
19:42
Speaker 1: the situation. That's what scripture says.
19:45
Speaker 2: God said, it is mine to avenge. I will repay.
19:48
Speaker 2: God will deal with the matter. but you've got to
19:50
Speaker 2: let it go from your heart.
19:51
Speaker 1: That is a complete finished statement on forgiveness.
19:54
Speaker 2: Right.
19:54
Speaker 4: Okay, so we should forgive everybody. Nobody should have to
19:57
Speaker 4: have any consequences, and we just forgive them, right? I'm
20:00
Speaker 4: oversimplifying based on what we just said and giving a
20:03
Speaker 4: wrong understanding of it for conversation's sake. Because I think
20:07
Speaker 4: about some situations, like if somebody... Somebody wronged my family,
20:11
Speaker 4: we'll say, and in a really bad way. And then they,
20:14
Speaker 4: they were gone.
20:15
Speaker 2: I wasn't there.
20:16
Speaker 4: I can tell you that I would want to go
20:18
Speaker 4: and exact justice on them myself. And I hope I'm
20:21
Speaker 4: never in that situation. If I was there, it'd be
20:23
Speaker 4: a completely different, that's an easy, easy choice.
20:26
Speaker 2: But you know what I mean?
20:26
Speaker 4: Like you start to get these complicated, like you start
20:28
Speaker 4: to play these, these things out to extremes about like,
20:31
Speaker 4: you know, it's mine to avenge.
20:32
Speaker 2: I will repay.
20:33
Speaker 4: That's really easy when somebody's like dinged my car door
20:36
Speaker 4: and like, I go, you know what?
20:38
Speaker 2: Just bless him anyways, Lord.
20:39
Speaker 4: Or whatever, somebody's being an idiot to us in our
20:41
Speaker 4: comments section in social media, for example.
20:43
Speaker 2: Happens all the time. Hey, bless him.
20:45
Speaker 4: When we start leveling this thing up, how do we
20:49
Speaker 4: start to exercise wisdom? We haven't even gotten into mercy.
20:55
Speaker 4: I think there's more to it. So I want to
20:56
Speaker 4: keep going.
20:57
Speaker 2: Let's go into mercy first because I want to come
21:00
Speaker 2: back to the application. But you're right to point it out.
21:02
Speaker 1: We're talking about forgiveness and mercy and two separate things.
21:08
Speaker 1: So we're going to move on to mercy. But what
21:10
Speaker 1: exists in both of them, what is one of the
21:13
Speaker 1: things that's governing both situations is justice.
21:16
Speaker 4: Right.
21:17
Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Yes. Justice is like this. I mean, biblical,
21:22
Speaker 2: like this is the wages of sin is death. That's
21:24
Speaker 2: what justice is.
21:25
Speaker 4: Right.
21:25
Speaker 5: Right.
21:26
Speaker 1: And so just go all the way back to the beginning.
21:28
Speaker 1: Justice was you sin, I'm kicking you out of the
21:30
Speaker 1: Garden of Eden.
21:31
Speaker 5: Right.
21:31
Speaker 1: Justice was you sin, you'll bear the penance of sin
21:33
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. Justice was because you sinned, right?
21:37
Speaker 1: And this is because God is the highest and greatest good.
21:40
Speaker 1: Justice is sin can exist. God's not mad at you.
21:44
Speaker 1: He's so great, sin can't exist in his presence. So
21:46
Speaker 1: he had to create sacrifices. Okay, you'll sacrifice this innocent lamb,
21:50
Speaker 1: this innocent animal to cover, to pay a price for
21:54
Speaker 1: your sin. Justice is understanding the math of the universe.
21:58
Speaker 1: This is the way things work. For something to be
22:01
Speaker 1: The greatest good, sin can exist in its presence. So
22:04
Speaker 1: something has to pay a price for it. That's the
22:06
Speaker 1: understanding of justice. And really what we're getting towards today
22:09
Speaker 1: is how do all of these things work together? Because
22:12
Speaker 1: a world that is purely focused on a justice is
22:15
Speaker 1: an eye for an eye world, right? And we want
22:18
Speaker 1: God to be the author of justice, not us, because
22:21
Speaker 1: I'm not a good enough judge to.
22:22
Speaker 2: Do it, right?
22:23
Speaker 1: And that's where, like, you think it's wrong when that
22:26
Speaker 1: person hurts you. It gets more wrong when you start saying,
22:29
Speaker 1: I'm so good. I should determine who pays what price. Right,
22:32
Speaker 1: because you know what God sees that we don't is
22:33
Speaker 1: a person's heart.
22:34
Speaker 2: Yeah.
22:34
Speaker 4: And that's where I... The amount of times I've said
22:37
Speaker 4: to God, I'm so glad you're God and I'm not
22:39
Speaker 4: because I've missed it.
22:39
Speaker 1: And this is why we have today, and they had then,
22:42
Speaker 1: when they could not do exactly what God said, he said, here, okay,
22:46
Speaker 1: here's what's called a law.
22:48
Speaker 5: Right.
22:49
Speaker 1: And this is the clearest explanation of what right and
22:52
Speaker 1: wrong is. And you can understand if you're on the
22:56
Speaker 1: right side of it or the wrong side of it,
22:58
Speaker 1: and that there will be a penalty associated with it.
23:00
Speaker 1: That's what we have today. What governs our society today
23:04
Speaker 1: is law. We have laws that govern our society, and
23:07
Speaker 1: we wrestle with sometimes the application of those, but we say, okay,
23:11
Speaker 1: this is right and this is wrong. And if you
23:14
Speaker 1: break the law, then here's the consequence of it. So
23:17
Speaker 1: that's justice. Let's go on to talk about mercy.
23:20
Speaker 2: Yeah.
23:21
Speaker 4: Now, mercy, so this is something, like I said earlier,
23:24
Speaker 4: I should say we both said earlier, when we are
23:26
Speaker 4: able to honor what God honors, and value what He values,
23:29
Speaker 4: and do as God does, it's the highest form we
23:32
Speaker 4: can ever get as human beings. And Micah 7.18 says
23:35
Speaker 4: that God delights in showing mercy, which I think is
23:38
Speaker 4: a crazy thing because.
23:40
Speaker 1: By the way, that scripture is the highlight of the
23:44
Speaker 1: divine nature. Right.
23:45
Speaker 2: Because as humans, how.
23:47
Speaker 1: How much would you say about yourself, man, I love it.
23:50
Speaker 1: I love it when someone hurts me and I let
23:51
Speaker 1: them off. Right.
23:52
Speaker 2: That's exactly my point. It is wild that he delights
23:55
Speaker 2: in showing mercy. And so that's what I mean when I'm,
23:58
Speaker 2: that's why I'm like, thank God you're God and I'm not.
24:00
Speaker 1: But one thing to understand about mercy, and this is
24:02
Speaker 1: a comment I made to Nick a few weeks ago
24:05
Speaker 1: that really kicked off Nick wanting us to talk about
24:08
Speaker 1: this episode. So there's a difference between mercy and forgiveness.
24:11
Speaker 1: Anybody can forgive, but mercy is a reflection of your
24:15
Speaker 1: strength and your authority. For example, If someone molested my daughter,
24:22
Speaker 1: I can forgive that person and I would work through it.
24:25
Speaker 1: It would be very difficult. I would work through it
24:27
Speaker 1: through my relationship with God to be able to forgive
24:29
Speaker 1: that person. But to show mercy would say like, hey man,
24:33
Speaker 1: it's all good. That would be like a, this is
24:36
Speaker 1: a base, simple interpretation of mercy. Like, hey man, it's
24:39
Speaker 1: all good. No big deal. You can walk free. That
24:42
Speaker 1: would be, okay, maybe it'd be mercy for that person.
24:46
Speaker 1: but it would also be because the injury was to
24:48
Speaker 1: my daughter.
24:49
Speaker 5: Right.
24:49
Speaker 2: Okay. So she's the one it's, it's not, it's not
24:52
Speaker 2: just adjusted. Yes.
24:53
Speaker 1: I care about her because she's my daughter, but the
24:55
Speaker 1: injury would be to my daughter. It's also an injury
24:58
Speaker 1: to the law.
24:58
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:59
Speaker 1: And it's an injury to society, right? It makes other
25:01
Speaker 1: people feel unsafe. If someone can do that to a,
25:06
Speaker 1: you know, innocent little girl and just go free. Now,
25:09
Speaker 1: maybe I've forgiven that person, but if we just let
25:12
Speaker 1: them walk with no consequence, not only have you injured
25:14
Speaker 1: the girl and you've, you're saying, well, let's have compassion
25:18
Speaker 1: for this person who made a poor decision. Well, there's
25:22
Speaker 1: also someone who's been injured. Where's the compassion for that person? Also,
25:26
Speaker 1: there's society that if we just let things like this happen,
25:29
Speaker 1: it's an injury to society, and you have broken.
25:32
Speaker 2: What we have as a stated law.
25:34
Speaker 1: So I say that to say, this is where I
25:37
Speaker 1: don't have the ability to give full mercy in that situation.
25:41
Speaker 1: I can forgive that man, but The law, and I'm
25:45
Speaker 1: not the authority, the law is going to say what
25:48
Speaker 1: justice and mercy looks like for that person. My daughter
25:51
Speaker 1: could say to a judge, after that happened to her,
25:54
Speaker 1: my daughter could say to a judge, here's my feelings
25:58
Speaker 1: on it, and maybe don't give him the death penalty.
26:02
Speaker 1: But she has a claim, law has a claim, society
26:04
Speaker 1: has a claim. So mercy, the ability to give mercy,
26:08
Speaker 1: that sits with the person who holds the claim.
26:10
Speaker 2: Look at it as a debt, okay? If you have
26:13
Speaker 2: a mortgage, I can't give you mercy for your mortgage.
26:17
Speaker 2: I wish you could, bro. That'd be awesome.
26:18
Speaker 1: Now, your note holder could. Your note holder could relieve it. Now,
26:22
Speaker 1: what I can do is I can show compassion for you. Like,
26:25
Speaker 1: say you couldn't pay your mortgage, I could show compassion
26:27
Speaker 1: for you and pay your note for you. I could
26:29
Speaker 1: give you money to pay your mortgage, but I cannot
26:33
Speaker 1: release that claim. It's the debtor who holds the claim.
26:36
Speaker 1: And so what you've got to understand as it relates
26:38
Speaker 1: to mercy... Just look at finances is easy and a
26:41
Speaker 1: zero one to understand that equation. And just come back
26:44
Speaker 1: to this terrible situation for a second where say my
26:46
Speaker 1: daughter was molested. Many people have a claim. I'm not
26:49
Speaker 1: the only one who has a claim. My daughter would
26:51
Speaker 1: not be the only one who has a claim. I
26:53
Speaker 1: could release my claim. My daughter could release her claim.
26:55
Speaker 1: Society and law still has a claim. Just understand that mercy.
26:59
Speaker 1: And this is where the reason I'm talking about that.
27:01
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about this as well. And I
27:03
Speaker 1: made that statement to Nick is sometimes we have what
27:07
Speaker 1: I would call ruinous mercy. Where if I just said like, oh,
27:10
Speaker 1: let's just let this person off the hook. Let's just
27:12
Speaker 1: show an exorbitant amount of compassion. I would be injuring
27:16
Speaker 1: my daughter and I would be injuring society and the law. Right.
27:20
Speaker 4: Because that person most likely is going to go on
27:21
Speaker 4: and do the same thing.
27:22
Speaker 2: I got so focused on love and compassion. Yes. Right.
27:26
Speaker 1: I got so focused on love and compassion that I
27:28
Speaker 1: caused further injury. And now that's an extreme situation. Let
27:32
Speaker 1: me give you a simpler example of ruinous mercy that
27:35
Speaker 1: many people see and understand. is we've all seen a child, right?
27:40
Speaker 1: We have it with our own, maybe it was us
27:42
Speaker 1: and we've seen it in other people's. Don't be so
27:44
Speaker 1: quick to judge, but I just know everyone's seen this example.
27:47
Speaker 1: We've all experienced ruinous mercy on a child who does
27:50
Speaker 1: not get punishment for their actions. And here's what happens
27:54
Speaker 1: in that you're like, oh, well, I just love them
27:57
Speaker 1: a lot. You are exchanging the injury to their feelings, right?
28:01
Speaker 1: I didn't wanna hurt my kid's feelings. I just love them,
28:02
Speaker 1: I just want them to be happy. Well, you're exchanging
28:04
Speaker 1: an injury to their feelings for an injury to their character.
28:08
Speaker 1: And this is where God says in a situation, He says, well,
28:11
Speaker 1: if you spare the rod, you hate the child. He's
28:13
Speaker 1: saying the greatest good... The greatest good isn't their feelings,
28:16
Speaker 1: the greatest good is their character. And so I say
28:19
Speaker 1: all of this to say, mercy is a very hard
28:22
Speaker 1: thing to get right, because most of the time, many
28:24
Speaker 1: people have a claim. Ultimately, God is the one... I'm
28:29
Speaker 1: gonna come back to the definition, but I wanna give
28:31
Speaker 1: this scripture because it helps. I'm laying out all the
28:34
Speaker 1: different claims as it relates to mercy. This one is
28:37
Speaker 1: one of those scriptures that have just punched you right
28:39
Speaker 1: in the mouth. Psalms 51, verse 4. Okay, Psalms 51
28:44
Speaker 1: is where David is lamenting after Nathan came to him
28:47
Speaker 1: and said, you sinned with Bathsheba. So David's been caught,
28:50
Speaker 1: and here's what David's saying in Psalms 51. And this
28:53
Speaker 1: is the heart that you want to have, the whole chapter,
28:56
Speaker 1: not just this verse. But this one's really interesting. Psalms 51,
29:00
Speaker 1: verse 4, David says, against you, he's talking to God,
29:03
Speaker 1: against you, you only have I sinned. And done what
29:06
Speaker 1: is evil in your sight, which is really interesting because
29:09
Speaker 1: he clearly sinned against Uriah.
29:11
Speaker 2: Right.
29:12
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.
29:13
Speaker 4: And depending on the story, against Bathsheba as well. I mean,
29:16
Speaker 4: there's some people that believe that was a forced relationship.
29:18
Speaker 5: Sure.
29:19
Speaker 2: All of those things. Yeah.
29:20
Speaker 1: Right.
29:20
Speaker 2: But what David is saying is, God, I sinned against you.
29:22
Speaker 4: Right.
29:23
Speaker 1: Who is the ultimate, ultimate holder of... of all authority,
29:28
Speaker 1: of all strength, of all power, the one who has
29:30
Speaker 1: full ability to give mercy is God. So again, even
29:34
Speaker 1: in all these things, that's what you're seeking the most. God,
29:37
Speaker 1: what glorifies you in this situation? And so as you
29:40
Speaker 1: seek to live with mercy, to give mercy, to have mercy,
29:44
Speaker 1: the question should always be, what glorifies God the most
29:47
Speaker 1: in this situation?
29:48
Speaker 2: That's such a good question, G.
29:50
Speaker 1: How do you know what is right? Not what is good,
29:52
Speaker 1: what is best and what is right. The same way
29:55
Speaker 1: I was talking about Stephen from Diary of a CEO.
29:57
Speaker 1: I hope people like Wes can lead him to the Lord.
30:01
Speaker 1: Because his amount of good, my amount of good without
30:03
Speaker 1: God in my life, it's nothing, right? And us trying
30:07
Speaker 1: to figure, well, what's right in this situation? No, it's
30:09
Speaker 1: what pleases God, what glorifies God, because he's really the author.
30:12
Speaker 2: So understand, God's the one who can give mercy. We
30:15
Speaker 2: can't always give mercy.
30:17
Speaker 1: And let me come back to just some definition of mercy,
30:20
Speaker 1: because I've explained all around it at this point.
30:22
Speaker 2: The definition of mercy, mercy induces an injured person to
30:29
Speaker 2: forgive trespasses and injuries, and to forbear punishment or inflict
30:35
Speaker 2: less than law or justice will warrant.
30:38
Speaker 5: Right.
30:39
Speaker 4: And to your point, we don't have the power. I mean,
30:41
Speaker 4: I would say most of the time we don't have
30:42
Speaker 4: the power to do this. Like in my house, I
30:44
Speaker 4: can show mercy. You talked about ruinous mercy. I can
30:47
Speaker 4: show mercy in my house because I'm the authority in
30:49
Speaker 4: my house.
30:50
Speaker 2: Yeah.
30:50
Speaker 3: Right.
30:51
Speaker 2: But this is a real humbling understanding of the places
30:54
Speaker 2: you actually have authority.
30:55
Speaker 4: My authority is so limited in the larger scale of
30:58
Speaker 4: like the businesses I'm in, all the different places I go.
31:01
Speaker 4: And so to actually be able to show mercy in
31:04
Speaker 4: the truest definition, we have limited opportunity.
31:06
Speaker 1: It's hard because you're having to judge. Okay, for example,
31:10
Speaker 1: let's just, we'll use you as an example because it
31:13
Speaker 1: doesn't hurt anybody's feelings at this moment. Besides mine, but
31:16
Speaker 1: I'll forgive you. But let's pretend Nick's having a hard
31:20
Speaker 1: time financially. Right. And I say, okay, I'm going to
31:22
Speaker 1: help Nick pay his mortgage. And he's like, oh, that's
31:25
Speaker 1: a loving, compassionate thing to do. Well, how long should
31:29
Speaker 1: I pay his mortgage for?
31:30
Speaker 4: Right.
31:31
Speaker 2: And this happens all the time. Oh, yeah, we see
31:32
Speaker 2: this all the time. That's why we're just going to
31:34
Speaker 2: talk about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're pretending for a moment.
31:37
Speaker 1: You know, if something terrible happens, Nick gets in a
31:39
Speaker 1: car accident, like Nick can't work for six months or something,
31:42
Speaker 1: you know, something like, you know, something crazy happens, I'm
31:44
Speaker 1: going to.
31:45
Speaker 2: Take care of him. What if Nick's just being a
31:47
Speaker 2: deadbeat doofus and doesn't want to work? Yeah.
31:51
Speaker 1: Am I helping him? By paying his mortgage, I'm sure
31:54
Speaker 1: I'm making his life easier, but is it for his best?
31:58
Speaker 1: Does it glorify God when you pay the bills of
32:01
Speaker 1: a lazy man?
32:01
Speaker 5: Right.
32:02
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, Proverbs would tell you no. Right.
32:04
Speaker 1: And so what you're trying to... I'm using this situation
32:07
Speaker 1: because it's an easier one to understand. I would be
32:10
Speaker 1: having to judge you and your situation to say, is
32:14
Speaker 1: it good? It's not just yes or no, pay Nick's
32:18
Speaker 1: mortgage is a good thing to do. I'm trying to judge.
32:22
Speaker 1: What is mercy here? Because the justice is, well, can't
32:28
Speaker 1: pay your bill, you get evicted. That's justice. Love is,
32:31
Speaker 1: I care about my friend. And so trying to find
32:34
Speaker 1: mercy in this situation is how do both of these
32:36
Speaker 1: things fit together? Because here's the reason that people are
32:40
Speaker 1: so disturbed by the Lindsay Clancy issue. And it is
32:45
Speaker 1: a unfortunate reflection of the erosion of moral character in
32:51
Speaker 1: our society, that people are even wanting to help or
32:55
Speaker 1: wanting this. And look, you can argue with me or say,
32:59
Speaker 1: you don't know all the facts of the case. I've
33:00
Speaker 1: looked quite a bit at this issue. Ultimately, God's the
33:05
Speaker 1: one who knows the answer. I think it's pretty clear
33:07
Speaker 1: that Lindsay strangled her children to death.
33:09
Speaker 2: Well, she's admitted that. Yeah.
33:10
Speaker 4: For those that are outside the US, because we do
33:12
Speaker 4: have that may not know this, She's Lindsay Clancy's 34.
33:16
Speaker 4: She strangled her three kids in the basement while her
33:18
Speaker 4: son went or while her son, while her husband went
33:20
Speaker 4: out to get food.
33:21
Speaker 2: Um, so she planned it and then execute it. And
33:24
Speaker 2: then she's.
33:24
Speaker 4: Claimed postpartum psychosis afterwards. She's gotten divorced from her husband.
33:28
Speaker 4: And basically we've had a mistrial. There's been a hung
33:31
Speaker 4: jury that's come out of this in the state.
33:34
Speaker 2: It's disgusting.
33:35
Speaker 1: Um, and this is, well, this is an example of,
33:37
Speaker 1: of ruinous mercy or ruinous empathy because the people who
33:41
Speaker 1: are supporting Lindsay are people saying, well, what about postpartum psychosis?
33:45
Speaker 1: What about how hard it was for her? And I
33:48
Speaker 1: won't get into all of it, but her husband did
33:50
Speaker 1: so much, like changed his job, gotten in, did everything
33:54
Speaker 1: he could to try and help his wife who is
33:56
Speaker 1: struggling mentally and hormonally through this situation.
33:59
Speaker 2: Again, don't need to get into all of that.
34:02
Speaker 1: But the ruinous mercy side is, like the facts are
34:07
Speaker 1: she murdered her children.
34:08
Speaker 2: A hundred percent. And she admits to it. So justice
34:10
Speaker 2: is eye for an eye. Justice is you deserve to die. Right.
34:14
Speaker 1: You know, I would think in a normal society that
34:16
Speaker 1: murdering children should probably get you.
34:18
Speaker 2: The death penalty.
34:19
Speaker 1: Um, the Bible also says those who hurt children, it's
34:22
Speaker 1: better to tie a millstone around your neck and be thrown.
34:25
Speaker 2: In the ocean. Not just the Bible, Jesus. Yeah. Yeah.
34:27
Speaker 2: And what God's going to do with you.
34:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
34:29
Speaker 2: So, yeah.
34:30
Speaker 1: Um, that's what the Bible says about hurting children. Um,
34:34
Speaker 1: but there's two sides to it, right? One side is, man, we,
34:37
Speaker 1: you know, here's why she did it. And she was
34:41
Speaker 1: really struggling. And I would, I think that's true.
34:43
Speaker 5: Yeah.
34:43
Speaker 1: I think she was obviously having issues. Um, and that
34:47
Speaker 1: is parallel to the fact that I'm pretty sure a
34:49
Speaker 1: demon was speaking to her the same way. It's funny, actually,
34:52
Speaker 1: that we talked about both of these things today. She
34:54
Speaker 1: talked about hearing a voice, um, like a very clear
34:58
Speaker 1: voice that told her to kill her children. Charlie Kirk's
35:01
Speaker 1: killer had the same thing. I don't know if you
35:03
Speaker 1: saw that.
35:04
Speaker 2: I did not.
35:04
Speaker 1: He had these journals that like, he was talking about
35:07
Speaker 1: the demon that was his friend and influenced him.
35:10
Speaker 2: Wow.
35:11
Speaker 5: Right.
35:11
Speaker 2: That's just pure darkness and evil.
35:14
Speaker 1: But I'm sure Lindsay was struggling in her situation. Ruinous empathy,
35:19
Speaker 1: ruinous mercy is like, well, let's just, you know, love
35:22
Speaker 1: her and forgive her.
35:23
Speaker 2: And we need to help this person. Justice is... this
35:27
Speaker 2: person deserves to die.
35:28
Speaker 1: Now, what, so the reason this is so difficult is
35:32
Speaker 1: because you have on one side, the people who say
35:33
Speaker 1: this is so wrong to society, we must punish this
35:37
Speaker 1: person because, you know, it just happened two days ago,
35:40
Speaker 1: another woman killed her kids. And what they saw was what, what,
35:44
Speaker 1: what just came out about it, but she had been, uh,
35:47
Speaker 1: fantasizing around Lindsay's situation and And she had, they pulled
35:50
Speaker 1: texts of her with her friends talking about the situation.
35:53
Speaker 2: So this is why, this is.
35:55
Speaker 1: Why when you do not carry out justice, right? The reason,
35:59
Speaker 1: if you go to Singapore, the sidewalk's really clean.
36:01
Speaker 2: You know why?
36:02
Speaker 1: Because if you spit out gum on the sidewalk, you'll
36:05
Speaker 1: go to prison for like years, right?
36:07
Speaker 2: There's zero. Yeah. Singapore's nuts.
36:10
Speaker 1: If you, um, um, if you bring drugs into Singapore,
36:13
Speaker 1: a hundred percent death penalty, like zero relief, You know what?
36:16
Speaker 2: They don't have any drugs in Singapore. People take it
36:18
Speaker 2: really seriously.
36:19
Speaker 1: Right.
36:19
Speaker 2: Because Singapore doesn't mess around. Yeah. Okay?
36:22
Speaker 1: When you flirt around with good and bad and allowing
36:26
Speaker 1: this massive injustice, it continues to go on.
36:29
Speaker 5: Right.
36:30
Speaker 1: And so the question, again, I'm not saying I know
36:32
Speaker 1: the answer. What I'm saying is mercy is really hard
36:35
Speaker 1: to do. It requires wisdom to say, how do we
36:38
Speaker 1: carry out both love and law at the same time?
36:42
Speaker 1: We've talked about this on the podcast many times. This
36:45
Speaker 1: is really the life that God's called us to, is
36:47
Speaker 1: how do we walk out love and law at the
36:49
Speaker 1: same time? How do we love people, but also, it
36:52
Speaker 1: says God is going to avenge, because sometimes, and here's
36:56
Speaker 1: where vengeance and revenge come into the equation, okay? Sometimes
37:01
Speaker 1: the law has been carried out and you don't feel justified.
37:03
Speaker 3: Right.
37:04
Speaker 1: Justice was carried out, but you don't feel justified.
37:06
Speaker 2: Yeah.
37:06
Speaker 1: That's where you've got to have forgiveness and say, God's
37:08
Speaker 1: going to deal with that. Because sometimes like, say, for example,
37:12
Speaker 1: you know, somebody hits you in a, a drunk driver
37:15
Speaker 1: hits you in a car accident and, you know, broke
37:18
Speaker 1: your legs and, you know, or you're in a wheelchair
37:20
Speaker 1: for the rest.
37:20
Speaker 2: Of your life. And that guy got, you know, eight
37:23
Speaker 2: weeks in prison and three years probation.
37:25
Speaker 4: Right.
37:26
Speaker 1: But you're in a wheelchair for the rest of your life.
37:28
Speaker 1: You're probably going to feel like justice was... You're going
37:30
Speaker 1: to say, justice has put him in a wheelchair. That's
37:33
Speaker 1: how you would feel. And so it takes forgiveness to
37:35
Speaker 1: let go of those things. Again, the whole point that
37:37
Speaker 1: I'm making here is that mercy, to carry out mercy,
37:43
Speaker 1: is sometimes not within our power.
37:45
Speaker 4: Let me ask you a question about this. Do you
37:47
Speaker 4: think that mercy and restoration are tied together, which is
37:50
Speaker 4: what makes it so complicated? Because the reason I'm asking this...
37:54
Speaker 4: One of the reasons the Lindsay Clancy thing has blown
37:56
Speaker 4: up is because it's become a political issue, because largely
37:59
Speaker 4: liberal people are the ones that are coming out saying like, oh,
38:02
Speaker 4: we stand for her. And so then it just blows
38:05
Speaker 4: up all sorts of things about abortion and people take it.
38:07
Speaker 4: So it's become a hot button thing. And people say,
38:10
Speaker 4: what about her? And I'm not like, yeah, well, forget her.
38:14
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, what about her?
38:15
Speaker 4: And so my question is like, okay, you want to
38:18
Speaker 4: restore her, right? You want to do something to help her.
38:20
Speaker 4: What would you even do?
38:22
Speaker 1: Right?
38:22
Speaker 2: Like, does anybody actually have the answer to say like, yeah,
38:24
Speaker 2: we can restore this person back to a functioning, healthy
38:28
Speaker 2: member of society?
38:29
Speaker 1: Let me give you an example of like the way
38:31
Speaker 1: that I see, see mercy.
38:32
Speaker 2: Okay.
38:32
Speaker 1: Okay.
38:33
Speaker 2: Yeah.
38:34
Speaker 1: If I pull, if I see an animal that's been
38:36
Speaker 1: hit by a car on the side of the road, um,
38:40
Speaker 1: and there's no ability to help that animal, the most
38:43
Speaker 1: merciful thing that I could do is kill that animal. Right.
38:45
Speaker 5: Okay.
38:46
Speaker 2: Now, if that animal could be helped, try to help it.
38:49
Speaker 5: Right.
38:50
Speaker 2: Um, The question you'd.
38:51
Speaker 1: Have to ask is because justice needs to be had
38:56
Speaker 1: in Lindsay's situation or you will injure society.
38:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.
39:00
Speaker 1: And this is an entire lack of wisdom to say
39:04
Speaker 1: it matters more for us to just love Lindsay and
39:07
Speaker 1: help Lindsay Clancy and make sure she feels good. than
39:11
Speaker 1: it is to make sure that we have a healthy
39:14
Speaker 1: and safe society, where we want to be really clear
39:17
Speaker 1: in our healthy and safe society that you can't murder
39:19
Speaker 1: your children without consequence. That would be a healthy and
39:23
Speaker 1: safe society. So really the question you have to ask is,
39:27
Speaker 1: could she be helped? Yeah, and that's what I'm saying.
39:29
Speaker 5: Yeah.
39:29
Speaker 1: Could, I mean, like, because otherwise it would just, you
39:32
Speaker 1: would just say, this is such a disgusting act that this,
39:35
Speaker 1: and it's sad that, you know, for, for, from the
39:38
Speaker 1: standpoint of hormones and psychosis and whatever else you want
39:41
Speaker 1: to call it, uh, you can call it sad from
39:43
Speaker 1: that point, but this person should receive the death penalty.
39:45
Speaker 5: Yeah.
39:45
Speaker 2: Right.
39:46
Speaker 1: To murder children. I'm pretty sure that's, deserving of the
39:49
Speaker 1: death penalty. Certainly for someone who was just like, I
39:53
Speaker 1: just want to kill kids.
39:55
Speaker 2: That would be really clear.
39:56
Speaker 1: So then the question gets brought up is with someone
39:59
Speaker 1: like Lindsay, would it be more merciful? And by merciful,
40:05
Speaker 1: not empathy, but more merciful in what is the highest
40:08
Speaker 1: good to put this person in prison for life, give
40:11
Speaker 1: them an opportunity to try and seek restoration and for
40:14
Speaker 1: us to learn from this person.
40:15
Speaker 2: Right.
40:16
Speaker 4: So you think that's what mercy would look like That's
40:17
Speaker 4: where it gets so complicated.
40:19
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say necessarily that that is what it looks like.
40:21
Speaker 1: I think that's the question to be asked. And I
40:23
Speaker 1: don't know enough about her to say.
40:26
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I was going to get at.
40:28
Speaker 4: I think it's hard for us to give mercy because
40:30
Speaker 4: as I said earlier, only God knows a person's heart.
40:33
Speaker 4: I think this is where people, we all struggle to
40:35
Speaker 4: understand a perfect God in an imperfect world.
40:38
Speaker 2: Because when you zoom out on the nation of Israel.
40:40
Speaker 1: And when you can't, by the way, when you can't,
40:42
Speaker 1: and this is where we end up in our humanity
40:45
Speaker 1: all the time, is I'm not God.
40:48
Speaker 5: Right.
40:48
Speaker 2: Okay. And so you have to say, which.
40:50
Speaker 1: Is more harmful, which is more harmful. Would it be
40:54
Speaker 1: more harmful to society to, if, if say we can't
40:58
Speaker 1: find really a merciful path where there's restoration for this
41:01
Speaker 1: person and restoration for society, if you're incapable of that,
41:05
Speaker 1: then the question that has to be asked is, is
41:08
Speaker 1: it more harmful to let this person walk, go down
41:11
Speaker 1: the full love road?
41:13
Speaker 2: Good for them. Maybe good for the people that care
41:15
Speaker 2: about this person.
41:16
Speaker 1: Um, but very painful for society saying, yep, you can
41:20
Speaker 1: murder your children and walk.
41:22
Speaker 2: Or is it more harmful?
41:24
Speaker 1: Or would it be better that this person just received
41:27
Speaker 1: the death penalty and the people who are empathetic to
41:29
Speaker 1: this person would feel that there was zero love in
41:32
Speaker 1: the situation? This is where wisdom is knowing what is
41:38
Speaker 1: best in a situation. And sometimes because we are not God,
41:42
Speaker 1: we're incapable of doing something so beautiful and wonderful as
41:45
Speaker 1: the wages of sin is death, sent my perfect son
41:48
Speaker 1: to die for you, now that you now have the
41:51
Speaker 1: opportunity for perfect forgiveness, even though you've sinned, you can
41:54
Speaker 1: still be with me. Only God can do such a thing.
41:57
Speaker 1: And so when justice gets put in the hands of
42:00
Speaker 1: a man, sometimes you have to determine of two imperfect situations,
42:05
Speaker 1: which is better.
42:06
Speaker 5: Yeah.
42:06
Speaker 4: And that's exactly my point. I think it's so hard for...
42:10
Speaker 4: One of the things that we hope that people would
42:11
Speaker 4: get from this would be more of a reverence and
42:13
Speaker 4: an awe of God Because when you realize that mercy
42:16
Speaker 4: is down to the person who's been wronged, and there's
42:18
Speaker 4: multiple people who are wronged in often situations, so you
42:21
Speaker 4: can't fully rectify it. The only person, and the example
42:24
Speaker 4: you gave of David was so good, because the only
42:26
Speaker 4: person who could look at what happened to Bathsheba, that
42:29
Speaker 4: unborn child, to Uriah, the only person who could actually
42:33
Speaker 4: grant a rightness from all that is God.
42:35
Speaker 2: And guess what?
42:36
Speaker 4: He could only do that in eternity because Uriah was
42:38
Speaker 4: already dead at that point. And I think that that
42:40
Speaker 4: brings a humility to step back in some of these
42:42
Speaker 4: bigger situations and go like, man, Lord, we need you
42:45
Speaker 4: so desperately to guide us as we walk through this
42:48
Speaker 4: because we don't see people's hearts. In the case of
42:51
Speaker 4: like Lindsay Clancy, it's like, yeah, we need to exact
42:55
Speaker 4: justice on that situation for the sake of society, for
42:58
Speaker 4: other people, for those unborn children. But like in our
43:01
Speaker 4: day-to-day lives, I think the things that we, where we
43:04
Speaker 4: get to more walk around with this is like in
43:06
Speaker 4: your household, right? Like let's go to where people like
43:09
Speaker 4: to go to the extreme and it's like, look, you're
43:11
Speaker 4: most likely never going to be in that situation.
43:13
Speaker 2: You're not going to be a juror. You're not going
43:15
Speaker 2: to be in that.
43:15
Speaker 4: And we take things to the extreme because it helps
43:18
Speaker 4: us to examine the truth of what we believe. But
43:20
Speaker 4: the places where we get to show mercy, G, like
43:23
Speaker 4: when we're in our household, like when we're with our kids,
43:26
Speaker 4: when we're operating with our friends, like how would you,
43:29
Speaker 4: you said what is the highest good that you could
43:32
Speaker 4: exact in that situation, right?
43:33
Speaker 2: That's what you said is like, what is the absolute
43:35
Speaker 2: best that you could do?
43:36
Speaker 4: So if you're for like ruinous mercy with your kids,
43:40
Speaker 4: ruinous mercy with other people, like the example you gave.
43:44
Speaker 2: With me and my mortgage. How do you?
43:46
Speaker 4: Because there's some people, if they see a homeless person,
43:48
Speaker 4: they're like, oh, they're just going to buy it on drugs.
43:49
Speaker 4: I'm not going to give them anything. How do you
43:52
Speaker 4: operate in a way that.
43:53
Speaker 2: You think is.
43:54
Speaker 1: Well, mercy, the highest form of mercy can only be
43:59
Speaker 1: given by the person who's all-knowing and all-powerful.
44:02
Speaker 2: Okay. Right?
44:04
Speaker 1: And so if you want to have greater capacity to
44:08
Speaker 1: give or bestow mercy, you need to learn more, you
44:11
Speaker 1: need to have greater wisdom, and you need to have
44:14
Speaker 1: greater capacity. By those things, it gives you the ability
44:18
Speaker 1: to show mercy. I love the quote, this is the
44:21
Speaker 1: wisdom of J.R.R. Tolkien, when Bilbo says to Gandalf, he
44:28
Speaker 1: says it's, or sorry, Frodo says to Gandalf, he says
44:30
Speaker 1: it's a pity that Bilbo didn't kill Gollum. And Gandalf replies,
44:36
Speaker 1: he says, pity, He says, it's a pity that stayed
44:38
Speaker 1: Bilbo's hand. It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. And
44:41
Speaker 1: he says, many that live deserve death. Some that die
44:44
Speaker 1: deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do
44:48
Speaker 1: not be too eager to deal out death and judgment.
44:51
Speaker 5: Right?
44:51
Speaker 1: And what Gandalf was saying, and it's the wise character,
44:55
Speaker 1: the wise divine character saying to Frodo, don't be so
44:58
Speaker 1: quick to judge because you're not really capable of true righteousness. Right.
45:02
Speaker 5: Right.
45:03
Speaker 4: And that's really the takeaway is it's like we've been
45:05
Speaker 4: commanded to forgive. Like there's no two ways about that.
45:09
Speaker 1: So in the same way, don't rush to justice. Like
45:12
Speaker 1: we should kill that person, okay? What I'm saying is
45:15
Speaker 1: also don't rush to ruin his empathy.
45:17
Speaker 2: Right.
45:18
Speaker 1: To have any ability to do both, you have to
45:21
Speaker 1: have a full understanding of both and seek the narrow path. Right.
45:25
Speaker 2: Okay, what is love in this situation? Not empathy.
45:29
Speaker 1: What's love in this situation? And then what's justice in
45:32
Speaker 1: this situation? And to accomplish righteousness is to try to
45:36
Speaker 1: find a way to do both at the same time.
45:40
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for listening, guys. Remember to share, like, subscribe.
45:45
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45:48
Speaker 2: We appreciate it all.
45:49
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45:54
Speaker 5: on there. You can also email at impossiblelifepodcast at gmail.com.
45:59
Speaker 5: If you have any questions, if you want to get
46:01
Speaker 5: in touch and find out about Garrett's personal or business coaching,
46:04
Speaker 5: that's the way to do it. Thank you again for listening.
46:06
Speaker 2: Go out there, think better, and live the impossible. See
46:09
Speaker 2: you again soon. Yeah.