Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 387] Stevie Nicks: Lessons in Dreams, Heartbreak & Resilience with Rachel Brodsky

Transcript

[EP 387] Stevie Nicks: Lessons in Dreams, Heartbreak & Resilience with Rachel Brodsky · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We all have destinies. I do believe that Stevie knew
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: from a very very early age is that this was
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: what I was meant to do and I have to
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: at least try. When she and Lindsay Buckingham were dropped
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: by Polydor Records after their first and only album didn't
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: perform so well, and she thought, this is it. I
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: guess I'm done. I think her parents said, well, you know,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: give it six more months. Who knows what would have
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: happened if Fleetwood Mac hadn't come calling. I like to
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: think she would have figured something out.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: We're totally booked rock and roll.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Little Hands says it's time to rock and roll record
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: roll up, I totally booked.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Booked on Rock, the podcast for those
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: about to read and rock americ Sinich. If you'd like
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: to support the podcast, get episodes commercial free, sign up
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: for the backstage Pass from Patreon just five dollars a
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: month the link in the show notes, or you can
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: go to Booked on Rock dot com now our guest
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Rachel Brodsky. She is the author of the upcoming book
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Lessons and Lace. Everything I Know about dreams, heartbreak, and
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: magic I learned from Stevie Nicks. Welcome to the podcast, Rachel.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. It's good to
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: be here.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Who doesn't love Stevie Nicks. I guess that's my first question.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: She's the best.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: I have yet to meet somebody who doesn't, although I
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: have kind of a funny story just made me think
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: about I went to see Stevie at Well, I'm based
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: in LA but I flew to New York to catch
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: her show at Barclay Center in the fall last year,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five, and as people were pouring into
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: the venue, some people just passing through Barclays like this
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: was like a young kid, and she was just like,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: who is Stevie Nicks? And I was like, okay, so
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: someone doesn't know who they are. But she she was
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: like really unliss She had to have been at in
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: middle school or high school. And I was like, I
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: won't hold it against you. So I think, like, no
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: one doesn't like Stevie, but maybe some people don't know her.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Well, one day, shoot, she will find out what first
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: inspired you to write an entire book that centered around
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: the lessons and the philosophy of Stevie Nicks rather than
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: a traditional biography.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: I wish I could take credit for the idea itself,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: but that that really wasn't me. I took an idea
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: and I ran with it. So at the beginning of
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, yeah, I'm trying, it's all. It's sort
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: of a blur at this point. At the beginning of
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: last year, it was like it was like maybe the
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: third day of the year, and I actually remember that
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: I was feeling I don't know, a little bit like
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: New Year's Day kind of gloom, like just wondering what
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: the year was going to hold, and like it's so quiet,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: am I. If you're a freelance writer, if you work
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: in like the freelance world at all, you're always positive that,
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: like your last assignment will be the last one period.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: And it was like the afternoon and I just opened
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: up in my email and I had gotten a note
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: sent through my website from an editor at my editor
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Donna at Harmony Random House, or rather Harmony as an
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: imprint of Penguin Random House, and she was like, hey,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: you know, we're familiar with your work. Our imprint is
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: considering doing this sort of philosophical She called it a
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: prescriptive biography of Stevie Nix. Is that is that something
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: you might be interested in? And I was just like yes,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Like I was like could I I can't respond to
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: this fast enough because I had been it had been
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: on my mind that I wanted to write a book
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: like that that didn't come out of nowhere, and I
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: was just sort of trying to figure out what the
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: right path would be. I'd already like, secure, you're an agent,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: and then this just it was really kismet, truly when
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: so Donna's email was pretty brief, and I wrote back
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: expressing my my interests very much, very ardent interest and
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: and then we just kind of went back and forth
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: and de traded some ideas, We had some calls with
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: her boss, and you know, I wrote up I basically,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: like I said earlier, took her idea and just ran
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: with it. I put together like a a proposed chapter breakdown,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: complete with chapter titles. If you read the book, then
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: you see that each chapter is kind of like a
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: different lesson that some of them were kind of paraphrased
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: from things that Stevie has said, others are a little
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: bit more in my wording, like my interpretation of those lessons.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: But that's how it started. Like I kind of I
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: wrote through the proposed breakdown of what a book like
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: this could look like, complete with research and quotes, because
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: I knew it would be very research heavy and that
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: we would do a real deep dive into just like
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: fifty years worth of interviews and things that she has said.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Just try to like kind of weep together a timeline
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: from that. And then yeah, it was kind of off
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: to the races from there. And you know, I had
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: about four ish months maybe five to complete a first
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: draft and that's you know, that's what happened.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then from there you got these beautiful illustrations.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Got to be so happy with the way it's laid out.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: The illustrations are really beautiful. The illustrations are done by
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: this fantastic artist, Nile Grant, who I know that Random
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: House does work with a lot. He's just yeah, I
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: wish I could even draw. I can't draw anything. I
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: draw stick figures, okay, but these, yeah, these illustrations they
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: kind of have like an anime quality and they they
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: they are like his interpretation I think of her of
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Stevie's life path. So there's one really beautiful. I'm looking
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: at it right now.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I could share some of these too on the screen.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Watch.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: In addition to the cover of the book, which he did,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: there's this beautiful image of of Stevie and a shawl
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: and a bag and boots kind of walking down Hollywood
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Boulevard with the lights in the mountains of of La
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: and Hollywood kind of in front of her. And it's
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: like drawn with her like sort of like her from
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: the back. And yeah. Like in one way, I think
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: the drawings were a way to perhaps get get around
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: because it can get it can get very complicated when
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: you're trying to get the right for photos, as I
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: understand it, and this I think kind of circumvented that
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: issue a bit and I think made it a much
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: even more beautiful piece of artwork. Yeah, in lieu of
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: traditional like getty images and archive photos and things like that. Yeah.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: And they depict her as as you describe her, almost
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: as a spiritual guide or a godmother, which what makes
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: her such a uniquely mythic figure in rock history.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Stevie has been weaving her mysticism and kind of world
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: building about herself. I think since she started as a
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: singer songwriter in like in Fritz, the band that she
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: was in with Lindsay before she and Lindsay Buckingham broke
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: off and did Buckingham Nicks. It just in her performance style,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: Like there was always something a bit other worldly about
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: the way she would move her body and the sort
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: of drapy outfits that she would oft into wearing, and
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: like those have definitely evolved since say, like the late sixties,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: early seventies, but like that's always been there when she
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: was a child, Like I write in the book how
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: her mother didn't love her leaving the house. Her mother
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: was kind of a protective person, not to any not
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: to like a point of problem, not not to a
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: problematic point or anything like that. But Stevie I think
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: spent a lot of time by herself as a kid
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: and was in place of traditional childhood friendships what she
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: did have. I think she spent a lot of time
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: kind of like in story books and writing, journaling and
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: reading and just kind of like imagining worlds for herself.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: And she I think had a very rich internal life.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: And I think that's part of what started at and
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: then into her years in Fleetwood, Mac. She just I
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: think was already like, you know what, she's a California girl,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: I think at heart. I mean she's lived in many
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: she grew up in a lot of different towns, but
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: California and its own kind of West coast wu woo.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Mysticism I think did play a pretty strong role and
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: just her development as a person and an artist. And
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: she was just like into a lot of these these
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: like quote unquote witchy things without actually practicing witchcraft. It's
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: pretty important distinction. But she was into things like crystals
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: and and like shawls and shawls drinked over lamp shades
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: and sort of chinsey decor, and she she was just
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: into like the esthetic and and spiritual ideas and and
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: all these kinds of thing long long before. Like today
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: they're pretty pretty popular, like all these things, like you
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: have people like you know, millennials and gen Z and
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: younger kind of talking about their their zodiac signs, like
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: their their entire personalities. But Stevie was really kind of
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: popularizing this like fifty years before it I think really
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: blew up in popular culture.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: She's the real deal. It's not a character, it's not
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: a made up character.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: This is who she is, and no She's just always
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: been herself. She's not like David Bowie, who who would
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: you know, world build, I think in a different way
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: and like create, you know, many different characters to embody
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: and his art. And I mean Stevie has a spectrum,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: but she's she's just very much herself and sort of
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: unapologetically so. And that doesn't mean that she hasn't had
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: times of being self conscious about who she is, but
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: she is still just very much who she is. And
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: that does include writing songs about Welsh witches and describing,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of weaving like mythical stories and sort
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: of planetary like observations and just sort of like existing
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: a few spiritual planes above maybe your average.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Person what's great to see. Over the last I guess
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: decade or so, she got into the Rock Hall as
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: a solo artist. The attendance numbers started to go up,
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: and she started to get this recognition even more so
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: than before. Younger artists look up to her. But like
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: you write in the book, she was once underestimated, misunderstood,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: dismissed and mocked. And I'm still trying to figure out
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: why that is. Why do you think so many critics
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: initially failed to recognize her depth as an artist.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean part of it, I think is just
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: old fashioned misogyny in the sixties and seventies women, I mean,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: women have always had to fight their way to the front,
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: and you know, women of color especially, But and the
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: kind of misogynistic takes on women in music have they've changed, like,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: because they do still exist, But then I think it
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: was a bit more blatant. So in the sixties and seventies.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I mean Stevie's basically and like a boys club, and
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: to an extent, rock has always been that way, but
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: at this time she's one of many fewer women trying
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: to do this.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: You think about how important Stevie and Christy mcvae what
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: are to Fleetwood Mac, especially as you get to the
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: late eighties when Lindsay Buckingham exits the band and they
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: carried that group in terms of hit singles, keeping them
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: in the public eye and writing solid songs.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Well, when I say that she was underappreciated and undervalued
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: and not really taken seriously, I'm thinking mostly of the
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: mid seventies when she enters fleetw with Mac and first
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: they you know, when Nick fleet would expressed interest in
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: bringing on Lindsay Buckingham and to fleetw with Mac. It
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: wasn't like, hey, like I'd like you and your singing
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: partner Stevie Nick to join. It was, oh, I want,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I want Lindsay and and and I've write a few
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: different takes as to who actually settled, but also Stevie
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Nicks has to come. But Stevie, Stevie was sort of
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Steen as more of an adjunct to Lindsay Buckingham's artistry,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: like Lindsay was the one who got to before they
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: joined the Fleet with Mac. Lindsay was the one who
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: was sort of playing out with other bands us. He
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: was the one who was like in the studio writing,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: and Stevie was who was doing odd jobs like uh,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: cleaning houses, wait and bussing tables and and so she
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: literally didn't get to like matriculate the way that Lindsey
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Buckingham did. And so when then when she went to
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: you know, be a solo artist in the early eighties,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: there really was this big question mark hanging over the
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: whole idea of her leaving Fleetwood Mac, even just for
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: like one or two album cycles. Because one thing I
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: didn't quite realize that like now, when I was, you know,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: growing up, and now people in band, singers who start
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: in bands leave to do solo material all the time.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: It's just it's it's completely normalized and no one really
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: thinks anything of it, but that at this time, apparently
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: it was a much riskier, a lot less likely, and
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: just a harder thing to do. And you know, Stevie
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: is not only wanting to go off on her own,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: but also she wants to Launchruin record label like in
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: order to do it, which she does. But Tom Petty,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: who's all over Bella Donna, didn't really like it. Seemed
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: like he liked he liked her as a person, but
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: he kind of saw her and Fleet with mac is
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: being more like pop radio and maybe a little less
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: serious than than you know, Tom, you know and the Heartbreakers,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: which were like it's funny to call Tom and the
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Heartbreakers like punk rock, but that was but but but
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: punk was kind of their their their philosophy and their mentality, like.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they were punk rock, new wave when they first
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: came out.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so Stevie had And the last thing I'll
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: say is, you know, I read a lot of the
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: interviews that Stevie Nicks did and with the with Fleet
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: with Mac in the mid seventies and these if it
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: was a woman writing about her than than she was,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: probably that the woman writer was usually a lot more
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: open minded. I guess you could say about about the
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: artists that that they she was meeting, but that you know,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: there was there were a few mid seventies early eighties, definitely,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: I think more so mid seventies interviews with Stevie where
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: like the male journalists would be looking at this person
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: and just completely writing her office like your your your featherhead,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Like what are you talking about with like Rihannon and
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: crystals and shawls and and like all this mystical, all
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: this mystical stuff like you like I don't even want
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: to touch this, Like you are just unserious. And that
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: was that was the vibe. And and this is not
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: something that I had any idea of. And it was
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: so fascinating to kind of go back in time in
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: a way just by reading these old interviews and like
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: really placing myself back at that at that point, because
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: I have only ever you know, known Stevie Nix as
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: being like the like rock and roll fairy godmother who
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: inspired legions legions of singer songwriters and like, I've never
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: heard a bad word about her. Oh, she's just like
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: so beloved. But there was a time when she was
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: just utterly dismissed as being like, uh, frivolous.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, see that, Well that answers it then, because that
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: is before my time as well. So by the time
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I'm a fan, late eighties, early nineties, by that point
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: she's already established herself. But in the beginning, yeah, it
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: was a much different time, which is what that research
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: that you did for this book reveals, Which leads to
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: the next question, because you mentioned you spent a lot
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: of time diving into archival interviews, documentaries, lyrics, books, any
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: surprising discoveries during your research process.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: I think that was probably the biggest one, just just
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the extent to which she she was written off, especially
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: with uh like that. There there were a few Rolling
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Stone reviews, not so much interviews, but but reviews of
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Fleetwood Max Live shows with like in the very beginning,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: in like nineteen seventy five, when Stevie and Lindsay joined,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: where they just you know, the reviewer would be watching
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: the show and be just kind of like not really
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: getting what Stevie is doing on stage. And not really
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: liking her voice, calling her voice kind of nasal and appealing,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: and so that seeing the critical pushback was interesting because
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: I've never read any such thing just in my lifetime
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: with more current media and writers. So that was probably
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: the biggest one, I think. Also, I really don't think
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I fully realized the extent to which Stevie felt like
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: she had to separate herself artistically from Lindsey, and how
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Lindsay was also quite dismissive of her she went to
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: go do her solo thing and I don't mean to,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: you know, crap talk Lindsay Buckingham. I'm a huge Lindsay
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Buckingham fan too, But reading more closely about their dynamic
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: in the beginning when they joined Fleet with Mac and
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: kind of seeing how like re learning how the rest
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: of the band kind of saw their dynamic which they
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: viewed as a bit controlling, meaning that Lindsay is seeming
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: a bit controlling of Stevie, and then just sort of
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: how she slowly kind of gained her self confidence enough
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: to separate herself from him and be her own planet,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: as it were.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, she got out from underneath that, and
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: then eventually as the years go on, as we know,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: within the last five years or so, maybe it's a
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: longer time. I can't. Sometimes just a blur. But when
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Lindsay was out again, it was now Stevie has the leverage.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: It's it's either, you know. Stevie was basically like, you know,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: if he's not out, I'm out of here. And I think,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: you know, Mick and John mcpee maybe say, yeah, you know,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: we got we gotta we gotta keep Stevie if we
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: gotta choose yeah, I mean, which is amazing. You know,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: you look, trace it back to what you were talking about,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: how in the beginning she was just people were dismissive
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: of her. Now Here she is, she's like the show.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: She's the reason a lot of people would pay a
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: ticket to go see Fleetwood Mac.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean I count myself among those those people.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: And this isn't a discount what Lindsay brought to the table,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: because because he's a fabulous guitarist and I love I
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: love his voice, like he has a really just a
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: really cool slightly like more higher pitch.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Like alto amazing guitarist.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wonderful guitarist. That that being said, the sort of
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: mystic quality that that Stevie brought to the forefront of
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Fleetwood Mac in her in her song. I think, well
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: they I think you hear more artists even today talking
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: about how they want to emulate what Stevie does as
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: a front woman and as a writer, and you just
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: don't hear that as much in popular culture unfortunately. And
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: again it's not to take anything away from from Lindsay's contributions,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: but it's just like it's just kind of is what
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: it is. I mean, it's Stevie. You can't you cannot
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: predict how audiences are going to react to the people
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: that they love. And yeah, but but I have heard
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: that Lindsay and Stevie are talking again, and I mean
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: obviously they they formally released Buckingham Nicks last year on
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: vinyl for the first time, I think since it was
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: first They're their one and only album was released in
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: the seventies, and so that they were doing like back
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: and forth stuff on social media to promote the re
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: release of the album. But I've also read this is
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: all kind of unverified, but I've I've read that like
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Mick Fleewood is kind of acting as like the mediator
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: to get these guys back in a room together because
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: I think I think they really want to. Mick really
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: wants to do a fiftieth anniversary for Boers.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because keep in mind, it is it always will
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: be has is, always will be Mixed band. Mick Fleetwood him,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: it's been his thing. He's been the h he's been
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: the guy through all the lean times, him and John McVeigh.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: But you know that it speaks to the character of Stevie,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: the courage, the character through all those difficult times. And
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: that's just I guess one of the lessons in the book.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, the structure of the book is fascinating because
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: it's organized around lessons. So is there one particular lesson
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: that maybe felt the most personal to you?
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's a really good question. Go fearlessly into the dark.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: I think it's probably a big one for me, because, well,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I I had no reason. I had no logical or
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: compelling reason to try to be a writer, right like
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: a music and culture journalist. I had every reason to
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: not pursue that path. And I now kind of think
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: of it as the audacity of youth, because when you're
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: that young, like when I was in my early twenties,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I was just like, well, this is what I want
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: to do, and I there's nothing else that I want
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: to do, so I might as well just try. And
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: I've had moments where I've been burned out and then
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: had to come back and then burnt out again and
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: then sort of come back to it. But just that,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: just that forging ahead despite like every every visible obstacle,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: every you know, people in my ear telling me that
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: it's unlikely that this will ever happen, and like what, like,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? You're gonna like write for
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Rolling Stone or I don't know, yeah, So things like that,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: like I really connected. I connected with so much about
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: her in ways that I didn't realize that go beyond
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: even just the chapter breakdown, Like the way that she's
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: kind of a pragmatist but also extremely romantic. I mean
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: that that also describes my personality completely, And like there's
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: a chapter called be a Totally Free Woman that I
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: had a lot of fun writing, because I mean I
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: am married, and Stevie famously only married once for a
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: very short period of time to her best her deceased
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: best friends, uh widower, but in general, she never really
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: wanted to be a wife. She never really wanted children,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: although she has wavered on those things, but she's you know,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: very seemingly, very happily single and child free. And I
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: really I I enjoyed writing that chapter, but not with
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: any intention of proselytizing that this is how you should
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: also live that like this, if you're you know, single,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: you should or if you're married, you should break up
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: with your partner, or if you have children, ignore them.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Like that's that's not even really I think what what
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: I really connected to was just that she knew what
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: she wanted and she stuck to it and that and
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: that's something that I've also tried to really lead with
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: in in my life. And it's not to say that
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: I haven't also wavered or had moments of doubt, but
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I have just tried really hard in my life to
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: just you know, kind of follow my own path wherever
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: it leads, even if it's not what other people do.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: And yeah, and then finally, you know, I love the
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: chapter Never Never Stop being a romantic because I am
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: you know, you could ask my husband, I am like
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: the consummate romantic. I loved watching rom coms. I still
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: love watching rom coms if they're good but if they're smart,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: if they're like on a Nora Ephron level, then But yeah,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: I grew up I think loving music in part because
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: I was such a romantic and that like these people
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: writing songs about the ones that they loved, whether they
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: were with them or not. It was like, this is hell,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: this is their way of getting that, taking it out
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: of those feelings, out of their body. And I loved
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: like grand gestures of romance and still do. And yeah,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: like I identified really strongly with and sometimes sometimes pursuing
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: a relationship isn't the right idea, but at least you
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: know if you do. And I think Stevie has spoken
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: very eloquently about like, well, not every romantic decision I
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: ever made was a good idea. In fact, probably most
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: of them weren't got ideas, But at least now I know,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: and I have a lot of material.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Find the bookdown Rock website at booked on rock dot com.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Therein can find all the back episodes of the show,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: the latest episode in video and audio links to all
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: of the platforms where you can listen to the podcast,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: plus all the social media platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: and x also check out the Booked on Rock blog,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: find your local independent bookstore, find out all the latest
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: hot rock book releases, and before you go, check out
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: the booked on Rock online store, pick up some booked
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: on Rock merch. It's all at booked on Rock dot com.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: And another word is that really stands out as destiny?
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Like was she destined? Are we all destined to do?
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: What we're really here to do? And there is the
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: chapter Believe in Destiny? Right, that's you talk about Stevie
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: feeling called toward music from childhood. Do you personally believe
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: that destiny played a role in her career?
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, And I think that yes, I think we
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: we all have destinies and and a younger version of
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: me would never have said that. A younger version of
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: me would have been far more logical, scientific like oh
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: we I mean, I can currently believe that we have
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: free will uh, and and that we might all have
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: destinies and not follow them or or decide to lean
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: into them or listen to them. I think you know,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: one thing, one idea I kind of tried to weave
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: through the book is just that these ideas sound simple
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: and easy, but actually living them and and by living them.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: I mean by just living authentically in what ways, what
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: ways feel true to you is actually a lot harder
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: for most I think most people and and even people
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: who decide to lean into their destinies. It's it's hard,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: it's hard to live. But yeah, yeah, I do believe
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: that Stevie knew from a very very early age is
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: that this was what I was meant to do and
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I have to at least try. And they're like the
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: moment she and she still experienced really deep feelings of
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: doubt and you know what, there was one part in
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: the book where I write about her, her when she
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: and Lindsay Buckingham were dropped by Polydor Records after their
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: first and only album didn't perform so well, and she thought,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: this is it, like I'm I guess I'm done, And
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: I think her her parents said, well, you know, give
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: it six more months, and it was like she, who
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: knows what would have happened if that, if Fleet with
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Mac hadn't come calling, But I like to think she
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: would have figured something out. And she is just like
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: on the I think spending one night at like a party,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: just on the floor in her room listening to Joni
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Mitchell's Court and spark, like just trying to remember why
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: she got into this in the first place and whether
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: or not she should still push forward.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Rachel Brotsky, the author of the upcoming book Lessons and Lace.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Everything I know about Dreams, heartbreak and Magic I learned
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: from Stevie Nicks. Stevie said, this is one of the
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: things in the book that I never knew. She had
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: problems with her eyesight. Apparently, she says she sees the
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: world like in a dream, quote unquote, like in a dream.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: How much did her physical eyesight or limitations with hyesight
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: actually shape her creative imagination because she literally talks about this.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that is a really excellent point. And so yeah,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: she she does famously have very poor eyesight. There was
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: a point where Stevie partied so hard after just before
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: them the Rumors World tour, that she forgot to remove
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: her contact lenses. She forgot to take out her contacts,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: and the lenses fused her corneas and the band the
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: fleet with Max tour manager had to bandage her eyes.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: So she partied so hard I didn't take her her
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: contacts out that Yeah, she almost caused permanent worse than
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: permanent damage to her eyesight. Uh and and had to
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: walk around with her eyes bandaged for a while and
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: after or after rumors came out. But but yeah, well.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: What did you say about how that shapes her creativity
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: or her creative imagination?
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I think because she specifically doesn't see like Crisp Edges,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: so to speak, it's it's almost like she is existing
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: in a dreamier world than maybe you or me, And
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: if I can, I was actually thinking about this the
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: other day because I usually wear glasses to work and
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: I was writing a profile of someone and I took
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: my took my glasses off to go do something, and
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: then I sat back down and I started writing again.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: My vision isn't that bad without my glasses, but I
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: do need them, and taking my glasses off and I
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: actually just proceeded to write. And suddenly it was like
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking anymore so specifically about the words. It
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: was like the blurriness on the page kind of created
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it helped me almost stand like it
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: at an arm's length from the work and just sort
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: of and just sort of allow the words to fill
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: up in my mind's eye. And then I would just
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: sort of write them onto the page, if that makes
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: any sense.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: That, yeah, And that's kind of how I see or
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: or that's how I envision Stevie's creativity.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: If you're it's like if you close your eyes, then
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: you see patterns and colors behind your eye lids. You
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: could do something with that, Yeah, Or if you just
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: if you kind of walk around without your your glasses,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: then you you might see something that doesn't it doesn't exist,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: but you might you might almost like fall into the
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: metaphysical a little bit. Like yeah, like there, people who
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: are interested in the metaphysical often talk about like different
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: planes of reality, different dimensions. Is sorry, this is getting
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: a little woo woo, but I.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Get so.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: If you sort of unFocus your eyes literally and figuratively,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: then it's like you crack open a third eye.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Artists talk about the third eye a lot, and I
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: think that by having poor vision, Stevie could have like
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: this almost better access to her third eye.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can see beyond what's actually right.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: There, and you can sort of see beyond the veil.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, you're write in the book quote. Even when
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Stevie was juggling odd jobs cleaning gigs and waitressing. She
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: always left room for creativity. Yes, it was exhausting, but
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: carving out that time to write music every night was
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: in the service of something much bigger. Now we're talking
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: about the people who are listening and watching this right
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: now who have a dream of becoming an artist to
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: sing or a musician, whatever that may be. But obviously
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: you have to pay the bills. What lesson do you
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: hope readers take from this period of Stevie's life, especially
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: people trying to balance the creativity with difficult everyday responsibilities.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: First off, I think about this all the time still,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: even as a writer who you know, writing exciting things
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, I have to kind
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: of balance that with maybe some less exciting or sexy
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: writing projects because the bills have to get paid. And
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I'm per suddenly kind of realist about, you know, where
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: my energy has to go in order to keep eating
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: and keep living, and things are not getting any cheaper.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: But the main takeaway I think I hope for most
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: people is that there is well. First of all, even
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: if you think you have nothing to creatively offer, just
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: do it anyway, just just for yourself. And no one
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: ever has to see it. It's just for you. When
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: I sit down to write anything personally, I don't really
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: worry about anyone reading it or looking at it. It's
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: just just doing it for me. And it's it's a
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: cathartic activity to express yourself, whether it's writing, drawing, making music.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: And I think it's also easy to feel like there's
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: just no time in the day. And I think, well,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Stevie in her twenties probably had a little more energy
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: to devote to and also, of course, you know, copious
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: amounts of cocaine. Yes, even though I don't think she
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: really did it in you know, pre Fleetwood Mac. That
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: being said, the one thing I tried to kind of
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: bring home in this chapter is that even if you
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: just like write a sentence or or do one brushstroke
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: or play one chord, that's enough. And it's kind of
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: like saving for vacation where maybe you take like five minutes.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: It's almost like meditation where you just take like you know,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: if you have an app on your phone and you
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: just take five minutes to meditate, and then like it
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: kind of adds up over time and then before you
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: know it, you're sleeping better and feeling more. I don't know.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: You'd have to maybe ask my mom, because that's she
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: does that. I've tried. I've tried and failed and very
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: bad meditator. But I think the point is that just
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: a little bit goes a long way. And if you
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: feel like because like in the book, I write that,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: you know, I've had people say to me in the
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: past like, well, I wouldn't know, it's right. I just
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: sat like, I can't believe you do that. I would
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: sit down and have no idea what to even say.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: And that's sort of again assuming that someone else is
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: going to be reading it, but it's not for them,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: it's for you, you know, And so it's you know,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: no matter what do you choose to do in terms
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: of creativity, if you do something even just for a
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: few minutes each every other day, it always adds up
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: and it is always therapeutic, no matter no matter.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: What that's And it's a great takeaway what you said.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: It's a great takeaway from the book. And you you're
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: going to find those people who are are watching and
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: listening right now that are thinking about this. You're probably
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: gonna find once you do that you're gonna be looking
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: forward to the next day because you're gonna go, you
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: know what, I can make it through this day at
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: work because I don't want to get home tonight. I'm
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: gonna pick up that guitar and see if I can
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: maybe learn that that tune a little bit. Or I'm
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: gonna pick up paint brush, or I'm gonna pick up
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: or I'm going to pull out that laptop and start
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: just writing a sentence and it snowballs and it becomes
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: something that you all of a sudden next thing, you know,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: you got a passion for it. You're just building and
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: learning from it, getting better and better. And I think,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: you know, that's what Stevie is trying to say as well,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Like even during those times she would write, and you know,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: probably some of her best stuff came through difficult times too.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, she is a famously prolific breakup song writer,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: and she I think, like I really enjoyed kind of
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: trying to like explain her writing process, which would start
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: with just like a kernel of something if it if
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: it wasn't. I mean a lot of her songs have
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: drama behind them, but then others are just like just
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: a seed of an idea might occur, and then she
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: sort of like will build upon them, and that these
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: ideas can really just strike at any moment. And I
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: think she even says like I'll go days without writing
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: anything and then spend like the day after that, you know,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: just writing some you know, writing something in just a night.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: And she's fearless, she embraces change, but she's she's somewhat
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: complicated in a way, in a great way, because like
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: she said, you ut quote, I'm not a good terrified person,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: and she's talking about feariously going into the dark. And
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I thought that quote was fascinating because it's almost like
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: it's a survival mechanism. But what do you think she
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: means when she says I'm not a good terrified person.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: One thing I have learned about Stevie, just having read
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: an infinite, seemingly infinite number of interviews with her, is
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: that she can be a little inconsistent with how she's
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: asserting herself and what she wants and how she feels.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: There are a number of interviews where she has talked
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: about never having children. There are many interviews where she
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: talked about how she could have if she could have
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: had a child, she could have married this person. So
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: she can be I think a little a little inconsistent
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: in that sense. And so it's that that's all the same.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Far far be it for me to really say what
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: exactly she means by I'm not a good terrified person.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: But I guess if I had to interpret it, I
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: would think of it as like, oh, it's scarier not
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: to do the thing that you're trying to do.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: I think you're right. Yeah, And she also embraces change,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: and actually change is it's deeply embedded in her songwriting.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's funny that she wrote Landslide when
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: she was still in her mid twenties, where and I
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: know that when when I was a much younger person,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I thought she that this person singing to me was
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: a much older person. And so, but I think she's
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: also a very old soul, which I try to explain
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: in the book. And I think it's really her old
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: soul quality that kind of makes her write from such
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: a place of wisdom even when she's still in her twenties.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I think Landslide is the perfect
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: example of a song where she's where she is really
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: trying to face down change, whatever that looks like. And
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: and I mean, I think she's very human, just like nobody.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Nobody likes or wants or hopes for change, but she
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: I think is also kind of a realist and accepts
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: that change is inevitable and tries to kind of process
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: her feelings about you know, life's like changing tides and
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: losing people that you love, because she's lost a number
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: of people that she's loved and losing love itself and
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: kind of, you know, trying to just mold herself into
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: whatever destiny has in store just and that's just how
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: she's dealing with it.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: She's talked about Tom Petty and Prince asking them to
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: stand behind her before performances. That's incredibly moving. That reveals
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: how she deals with grief, but in a very positive way.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean she I think she's very She's so
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: spiritual in the way that she describes the people that
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: she's loved in her life, like like Prince and Tom
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Petty and Christine mcviee from com Fleetwood Mac And that
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: spirituality I think is really like brought to the four
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: and when she's performing live, and she has talked before
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: about feeling Christine's presence on stage with her, and lately
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: she closes out every show with landslide I think and
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: running pictures in the background on the screen at the
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: venue of Christine and her and Christine and so anyway, Yeah,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's not to say that she still isn't
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: sad and doesn't feel the physical pain and the heartbreak
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: of losing people that she has loved in her life,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: but yeah, like the way that she kind of makes
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: a beauty out of it is really stunning and inspiring.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: If you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for your support, and make sure
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: you tell a friend, a family member, share on social
• 44:13
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• 44:17
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• 44:19
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• 44:22
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  Speaker 2: tune In, and on YouTube music. You can check out
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: to the show. You did mention the drugs and She's
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: talked openly about her battles with drugs, cocaine later klonipin,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: which took away, as she said, her wonderful drama, empathy,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: and creativity. Forty seven day detox that sounds almost unimaginable,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: but going back to creativity as a means of survival,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: she said she kept writing during that period, and she
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: eventually emerged from detox, saying she had a new Lisa
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: on life. Do you see her survival and recovery as
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: one of the most inspiring chapters of her story?
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that she knows how to not create,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Like I think it's just it's a coping mechanism for
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: her and a lot of people. But I think she
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: she may have felt that she had a lot of
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: time to make up for when she has spoken a
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: lot about losing eight years to klonopin, which she said
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: made her sluggish, and it's like it had that, like
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: almost the complete opposite effect on her. Is I think
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: that she started doing cocaine. I mean it was just
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: around and I don't think culturally people really knew the
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: long term effects health effects that that doing so much
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: of that particular drug would have. It was just but
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: but at at the time, you know, she had long,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: long nights and early mornings and just also like a
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: lot of just the rock and roll lifestyle and you
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: need to be awake for all of that. And I
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: think also she said that cocaine gave her like a
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: sense of confidence and she can actually be a very
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: shy person but then concre on the other side of
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: the spectrum. It's like Klanapin just like stole her spirit
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: in a way. But she was being prescribed it and
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: told to take it and then prescribed more, prescribed more
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: of it. It's like we didn't have at the time
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: that it just there wasn't this understanding that, oh, this
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: is a highly addictive substance and it will create dependency
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: and yes you could easily like overdose on this. I mean,
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: today we think about and other control subs and like
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: benzodiazepines as being like you have to proceed with extreme caution,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: and if you are prescribed them, then you have an
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: appointment with a psychiatrist every month. I mean, it's like
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: very heavily controlled. But at this time her doctor was
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: just like, here you go have more. Oh, are you
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: starting to like the effects of it aren't hitting as much.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Oh have have some more. Here's a mountain of klonopin,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: And it was like, just this completely.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: Uh, well, it's interesting because it's used to treat the
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: anxiety and depression, right, it's used to slow the brain down.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: I believe, Yeah, it is.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Uh they well they prescribed it to her in the
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: first place, so that she wouldn't feel compelled to take
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: to fall back into a cocaine habit. Yeah, which it doesn't.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense to me coming from where
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: we are in twenty twenty six. But at the time
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: her psychiatrist was like, well, here instead, why don't you
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: wholen't you this? And this will prevent you from falling
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: back into old habits, not not realizing that they were
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: creating an entirely new habit. And so I think that
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Steve and Stevie has talked about how coming off of
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: cocaine was like the easiest thing in the world compared
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: to the agony of coming off of detoxing from clonapin,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I think I think also at one point
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: she gave an assistant like she she wanted to see
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: what the effects would be on somebody else taking this
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: amount of clonapin, so she gave her usual dose to
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: her assistant, and yeah, the assistant just like just passed out,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: and then she was like this wake up call and
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: reading her descriptions of what it took to break free
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: of clanapin is horrific and visceral. And yeah, but I
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: also think she was to kind of come back to
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: the beginning of what I was saying. I think that
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: her writing like was she she'll write through the best
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: of times the worst of times, and in this case also,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: I think she just felt like she had a lot
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: to kind of catch up on a make.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Up four And is solitude creatively necessary for her? Because
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: she describes loving solitude and living a single woman's life.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: He touched upon that topic of her being single, but
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: I wonder if solitude is something that she needs.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: She to me, seems like someone who is happiest when
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: she is sort of surrounded by sort of like touchstones
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: or artifacts or like just things that bring her joy.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: So she and I identify with this personally as I'm
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: very similar. But I mean, like I said earlier in
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: the interview, she did grow up with a sort of
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: a rich internal world and seemed to enjoy, and I
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: mean by circumstantially be spending a lot of time by herself,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: but also seemed to enjoy being by herself and being
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: being creative in that way. And I mean it's different
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: for everybody, and I don't think there's one way to
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: really be creative. I think maybe just you know, for
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: her in particular, this being, you know, cultivating a life
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: where she has an environment that is like a room
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: of one's own, not to get like into my English major,
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: but like to have a room of one's own seems
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: creatively important to her.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: The song Ghess from nineteen eighty nine, that was when
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: it stood out to me because it's not one of
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: her most commercially famous tracks, and she's got so many,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: but this one's interesting because philosophically it feels incredibly revw
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: if you could talk about that song regarding her comment
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: on Guardian Angels and why you think it's an important
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: song in understanding Stevie X.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I mean Stevie has I think always spoken
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: about believing in Guardian angels, and I in the book
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: tried to kind of look at this through the lens
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: of eternalism, where time isn't happening in a linear sense.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: It's like the past, present, in future are all happening concurrently.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: And I think that is probably one mode of thought
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: that Stevie might just find either find artistically interesting. And
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying she definitely wrote this into into ghosts,
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: but that was that's kind of where my mind went
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: and how I interpreted the song. Uh, and I she
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: it's funny that, you know, she talks a lot about
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: spirituality and guardian angels and ghosts and things, you know,
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: in the late eighties because in you know, in she
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: lost her mother and I think twenty eleven, and she
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: spoke frequently after that because she was very close with
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: her mother, and she spoke about how she sort of
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: hear her mother's words in her in her mind when
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it could be something completely mundane, like
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: it could be a significant moment in the day, or
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: it could be just the most mundane like don't don't
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: drink anymore of you know, Coca cola, Stevie or something.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: But I think that, you know, this kind of goes
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: back to the beginning of the conversation, where Stevie has
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: just always a really real defining part of her personhood,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: and her artistry is thinking about kind of the other
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: side of the veil and what might might exist beyond
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: what we can see. And it's not this isn't really
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: to talk. This isn't religious, because she is certainly not religious,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: and when she talks about things like guardian angels and ghosts,
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: it's she's not speaking of like a you know, Judeo Christian,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: biblical anything. I think she's she's just very It's all
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: part of how she's like kind of steep and mysticism
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: and that, you know, looking into the past is a
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: way to predict the future.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Well, even she says it's not. Well, here's the quote,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: we all turn to our guardian angels at some point.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: I truly believe that guardian angels are out there, and
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: I believe that we've all got one sitting on her shoulder.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Ghosts for me, at the end becomes somewhat I don't
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: want to even use the word wholly, but there is
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: certainly a spiritual thing about it, you know, and you
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: turn to your garden guardian angel, and you realize that
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: the ghosts of the past and the present and the
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: future all are a part of you, and you have
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: to dig the past in the future and what you're
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: living day to day, and you have to stop for
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: a second and check out how cool today is and
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: how cool yesterday was, and also hopefully how cool tomorrow's
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: going to be.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, she just said it much better than I
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: ever could. But yeah, I mean, it's something. It's something
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: that I think about too, just as I, you know,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: get older and probably live and have lived in California
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: for too long. But I love the perspective of their
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: being potentially a guardian angel, which is it's kind of
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: funny because, like I think I start the chapter out
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: just by talking about how much like how prevalent angels
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: were culturally when I was growing up, and I don't know,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: I think Stevie was a bit ahead of her ahead
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: of her time and singing and speaking so just openly
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: about her sort of spiritual beliefs and what she thinks
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: might exist be on the veil. And you know, it
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: sounds kind of funny to say, because it's none of
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: this would sound out of pocket for an artist today
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: or a contemporary artist speaking about guardian angels and ghosts
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: and maybe something supernatural or or or something that's like
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: beyond the earthly plane. But I think in the certainly
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: the seventies, but then also the eighties and probably also
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: the early nineties, so there's like a lot of you know, culturally,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: a lot of what was it like like satanic panic
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: happening and oh yeah yeah, So you don't have to
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: have sort of apploud Stevie for even just her bravery
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: talking about these things as openly as she did at
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: The Book Down Rock podcast is part of the Boneless
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Podcasting Network. If you're a fan of classic rock and
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: classic film like I am, go to Boneless dot Lovable
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: dot app to find over twenty eight shows there that's
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: Boneless Downlovable dot app, or just go to bookdown Rock
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: dot com the Boneless podcasting network. It is what you
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: want to be listen with confidence. If somebody only knows
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: Stevie Nick from the hits or the image that everybody
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: knows of the witchy image, what deeper side of her
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: do you hope that readers will discover from the book?
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: I really hope that readers discover a sort of a
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: yin yang as far as Stevie's personhood goes. I was
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: really struck by how, on one hand, I mentioned this
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: earlier in the interview, but I was super struct just
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: by how on one hand, how romantic she is and
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: dreamy and just like kind of laid back, let the
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: wind take you where it may, but at the same
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: time incredibly ambitious, pragmatic, business minded, realistic. She is just
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: such a I think the most interesting people and artists
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: are living multiple truths at once, Like they are complex
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: human beings with seemingly contradictory characteristics to themselves. And so
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: I really hope that, like Stevie as a complex individual,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: kind of comes through the pages of the book. And yeah,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: like because that's I think, I don't know, I think
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: we can all use some more nuance in daily life.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: Now. The book is titled Lessons and Lace. Everything I
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Know about Dreams, heartbreak and Magic I learned from Stevie Nicks.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: So the book's not out until September fifteenth, but people
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: can pre order and there's also physical deal through good Reads. Right,
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: tell us about this, Yeah.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: There's currently a giveaway for the book through good Reads.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: It started on June fourth and running through June twenty sixth.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what I'll do is I'll put the link in
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: the show notes. Makes it very easy for anybody to
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: access this page. I'm looking at it right now, so yeah,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: we will put that up and you can pre order
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: through the usual places. I saw on Amazon, you can
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: pre order it. Where can people find you online? You
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: get a Facebook page, I think.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: Instagram, Yeah, I'm I'm not super activate you and Mick
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Fleetwood on Yeah, there's a good photo, you know, can
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: I can I tell you something kind of funny about
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: that picture real quick? I when so I met my
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: now husband on Tinder, as you do, and I included
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: that photo in like a slide show of other photos.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: This is twenty nineteen, and it didn't occur to me
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: that someone maybe looking at these pictures might not know
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: who that is in the picture with me, because I
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: think somebody on Tinder asked like, who is that? Like
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: your father, your grandfather, and I was just like, uh no,
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: it's like kid Pingwood, do you do this? And then
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, well, then even if someone doesn't recognize
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: who that is, this is going to be a really
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: good litmus test for who I should date. And luckily
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: the right one came through. But I'm not really on
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: Facebook that much. Admittedly, I'm much more easily found on
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: Instagram at r Broad's and or you just google my name.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: I'll come right up. I'm also on Twitter, slash x
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: at Rachel Brod's. I am on TikTok, although I can
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: be very intermittent about making tiktoks. I'm much more of
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: a lurker on TikTok. But yeah, I'm in all of
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: those places.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: Rachel Brodsky, thank you so much. I'm a huge Stevie
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: fan and this is such a great way to to
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: celebrate her career by getting lessons from her because she
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: has lived an amazing life and continues to go out
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: there and deliver. Man, she is one of a kind.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: I love her to thank you so much for having
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: me on the show. That's it. It's in the books.