Latest / WTF! Women Talk Finance / EP 20: Marriage Shouldn’t Feel Like Another Job

Transcript

EP 20: Marriage Shouldn’t Feel Like Another Job · WTF! Women Talk Finance

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Jackie.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Kid.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is WTF.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: Grab your coffee, wine, water bottle, emotional support snack, no judgment, and let's get into it.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: Hello.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to another episode of WTF Women Talk Finance.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_04: Got my girly here, Jackie, looking so cute and green.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: My little summer special.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Before we started, I was like, please take me seriously.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm a grown-up adult and I'm doing professional things.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Just look how I'm dressed.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_04: You are so prof.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: I wish everybody could see the whole look because it's amazing.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and you are.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: You're amazing.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: So proud of you.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're amazing.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're amazing.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And also I love that when we're not in this type of clothes, we're definitely in like the comfiest comfies.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in my jeans.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Are you in comfies?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: But they're they're like really good Levi's, so they're really comfortable.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Levi still does.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about these Levi's.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: They do the inseam right.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: They do.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: They do.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: I don't get the wedgie when I'm walking.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_04: In the front or the back.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_04: In the front or the back.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: There's some that do it on both, and that's just unacceptable.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_04: A crime.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_04: Full demeritic.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: A crime.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_04: Citizens arrest.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um this actually is a perfect lead-in to our show today because one of our favorite things is sitting at home alone in our comfies without having to get dressed up, put on makeup, head out, and participate in society, really.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's the dream.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: We're both kind of living the dream.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_04: Think for someone else.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: Think for think about all the things that need to happen.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_04: So much to like leave the house.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_04: I don't, I don't want to have to, I don't want to have to use that brain power.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_04: So we did an episode on the loneliness economy, and we really dove into kind of the good and the bad of that.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the the word loneliness.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_04: And from that, we wanted to do a little bit more research and have a conversation about being alone.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think there's a big difference, and we talked through it: loneliness versus alone.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_04: And for women, and especially why this is a women's conversation and a finance conversation, is we're seeing women outpace men on choosing to be alone.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_04: It's a really important distinction that they are not lonely.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_04: They are making a choice to be alone.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: And it's worth a whole conversation.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: This quote, I'm gonna open with this.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: This woman in Washington State, 41-year-old female, um, and this was published in The Guardian late 2025, by the way.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she said, it feels like taking on a partner, like a romantic partner, would be like taking on another job.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we have had episodes in the past where we've talked about unpaid labor.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't say that in her quote, but it's essentially another unpaid job.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Women are choosing to be alone because to be in partnership is just another unpaid job.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or it can be.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to categorize all relationships that way, but for a lot of people, it's feeling like that.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_04: Statistically, I mean, women, when they go into a relationship, they actually take on more unpaid labor and men take on less.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_04: So when they looked at how men and women single operate, um, the hours of unpaid labor were were pretty close.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm gonna try to pull those up.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_04: But when you entered a relationship, women took on substantially more than their male partners.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then you had children in, if that's if that's something those those people choose to do.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: And it just goes up so significantly for women.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_04: And so this is a financial choice.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that is a very interesting quote in saying, like, no, I don't need another job.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_04: And they have quotes of women saying this going back um for about a hundred years.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_04: There still were there were queens a hundred years ago saying, no thanks.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_04: I can actually do work and get paid for it.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_04: I don't need to um do this.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_04: There wasn't as much freedom.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_04: It certainly wasn't as easy as it is today.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_05: Um, well, actually, I I want to ask you, do you think it's easier today to choose to be alone?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I do, and here's why.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Women who are well resourced, I want to make that distinction because not all of not all of the population is well resourced.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: But and what I what I mean by well-resourced, you've got family support, you've got friend support, and you've got financial income.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: For those women, you have the ability to be pretty hyper-independent.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can do it all yourself.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're used to doing it all, right?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can get your own groceries, you can fix things around your house, you can take care of your own housing, your own shelter, your own basic needs, and more.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so much availability as far as like seeking momentary companionship that there it's super easy to have quick connections, go, you know, meet up with a friend, go grab dinner with someone, grab dinner alone.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: The societal narrative on being alone has shifted.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's no more like you're a pariah if you're dining out on your own.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I do for those reasons.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're an old mate and a spinster.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard the word spinster in a while, and I think we're gonna celebrate that.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know when I turned 24, there were there were, you know, my grandparents were like, when are you gonna get married?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know the times have changed.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: The times have changed.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think what about you?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think it's easier or do you think it's harder?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: I do think it's easier.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_04: I do.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I think we we talked a little bit in the loneliness economy episode about the world's really built right now for a buddy system, a partnership.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um and that can make it very difficult.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_04: But I do think it's it is getting easier.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_04: I think we'll continue to see it get easier.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and there's some really great indicators for how women are doing financially or the financial decisions they are able to make as single uh women or choosing to be alone.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um, they are outpacing men on uh as far as the share of US home buyers.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: So 21 versus 9% single women to single men as a share of all US home buyers in 2025.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_04: So they are more than double.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_04: And considering that we still have the gender pay gap in the US.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, pretty much everywhere.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, most countries have not really reached closing that gap.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: So that's while making less.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_04: So we we also don't have finance as part of our traditional conversation amongst women.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_04: So women are still out there crushing these goals, exceeding expectations, and buying homes.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's amazing.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've also we've had our conversation before about women that aren't involved in the conversation with their spouse and that spouse passes away, right?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: This inheritance market, this flood of money that comes to women that have not been participating in the money conversations over the years.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And within that conversation, we also highlighted that men, if they become widowers, are hugely likely to remarry like that.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Remember that statistic?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have it in front of me, but it was crazy.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Get remarried.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And women don't call somebody this women.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to like take a deep dive into the psychology of that.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Why are women so able to be satisfied without a companion, especially?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: So this is for age, this is women age 65 and older, but half, 51%, more than half of women are unpartnered.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Period.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Age six Americans, age 65 and older, 51% of the women are unpartnered versus only 29% of men.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Widowhood is not as much a thing for men.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: They they they find another companion.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Women don't.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: I think this, I mean, I think we know why.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I I mean, I I say this a little bit in jest.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_04: I have a great partner.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_04: I've got a great spouse.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_04: We do uh, I think a pretty decent job on equitable division of definitely physical labor in our home.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_04: We both agree there's not an equitable division of the mental labor in our home, and it's something we continue to work on.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: But I know with friends, friends of mine who are married, there's I I do feel there's a reason we're kind of pressured to get married, like you said, at 24 when you're young and gullible and it's this romanticized idea because get your 40s, you're like, I'm done with this shit.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: Why, why?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_04: Why do I do so much?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_04: Why am I doing so much?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: And your tolerance for tomflury, for this weaponized incompetence, and it it is weaponized incompetence, it just is.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: If your spouse is having to FaceTime you from the grocery store because they don't know, I mean, like, no, you're very capable.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_04: Or they're asking where they're supposed to be when something is in a, you know, you already did the mental labor of putting it in the shared calendar.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: You're just taking care of another person.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, I don't need to do this.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not your so I I can see it.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: I can see women in their 60s going, like, yeah, I'm I'm not doing that one again.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: It'll be nice.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think it's there's there's a coin here where there's two sides to it.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: One is just like the feminism movement.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we are independent, we want to be treated equal.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to be really clear on that.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not feminism as a form of like we're taking over, it's we just want to be treated equal, feminism.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Equal, equal partners, equal opportunities.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's been that push.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the other side, we've got women who have worked really, really hard on themselves, right?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's been so much narrative and talk about like therapy, self-help books, how to undo some of the wiring that we carried through from previous generations, like the people pleasing and the women in these traditional roles of taking care of everything, the household and the children and the family, and also working outside the home.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of these narratives are being shaken up a little bit.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we find ourselves in this reality where we have fought so hard to be equal and fought so hard to work on ourselves that we're here and we're like, oh, okay, this I'm by myself and it's pretty good.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I like my own company.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I can do all these things myself.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Why would I change this?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_04: I do wonder if we in general have maybe it's a more natural, but also are we just more taught because we are kind of groomed to be more empathetic.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: We are taught to carry more of the mental and emotional labor.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_04: If in that teaching of us to be the caregivers, we are able to make deeper connection.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's such a great theory.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: We we naturally, I don't even know that we naturally do it.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_04: I do think it is kind of like we we teach, it is something we are taught to do.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: You you have to be the one caring.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_04: You have to think through the things that'll make somebody else feel special.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: And we are able to translate that into other relationships and deeper relationships.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there is kind of this growing trend I've seen where spouse, you know, wives will ask their their their husbands or their their male partners, like, how is your you you golfed with your friend all day.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: How's their how's their how's how's their life?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: What are they doing?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_04: What are they how are they feeling?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, they just they just lost a parent.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_04: How is that?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_04: Are they okay?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_04: And they're like, oh, I don't know.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't talk about it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't, I don't know.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_04: We didn't talk about it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: They aren't doing those deeper communication things.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_04: They aren't asking questions or thinking through the and I'm not saying all men.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_04: We're we're generalizing here.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I will say that's not fair, and that's fine.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're not fair sometimes.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're not fair.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: I will joke with my my and my my spouse totally uh jokes with it too, because there are times he comes home and I'm like, how are they doing?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: Did you like did you did you check?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_04: What did you guys talk about?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_04: I have no idea what you even talked about this whole time.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_04: If you don't know how that, you know, all of these little things.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm asking questions that he may not know.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and in my female friendships, I know so much.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll be like writing a card because something significant happened and I want to have a show of care.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I do I do wonder if there is a nature versus nurture question here as far as our development in deeper relationships.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And going further below that, like the fundamental wiring, again, the narrative of how life is supposed to look, what is fulfilling, what is meaningful, what's your life's purpose?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think some of that has shifted over time, where it used to be, you know, what's what's the um the house, the picket fence, two kids and a dog, right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: You get married, you do things in this order, you find your person.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's that's if you're a female, it's gonna be prince charming.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a man, you find a princess, you know, and you do this series of events in this certain order.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's the narrative.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's how you're supposed to find your life purpose.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been completely upheaved, is upheaved a word.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going with upheaval, the shortened version of upheaval.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's been upheaved, chucked up, it's been regurgitated, it has been puked up and stomped on.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_04: One, that life, I think, is a picture you can sell to very young children as something that is idyllic.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um for some people, it is it's it's wonderful.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: It is what they want.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: They find a deep purpose in that.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: I know I had when I did grow up in a house with a white picket fence, and I did, you know, like actually.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it did.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think, and I had the dolls and the things, and I I don't think it was um, I also had parents who were really big on you can be anything you want, which was great.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_04: So I kind of got a little dose of both, but I think looking at it now, I think you know, one of my kids said to me the other day, we were running through um, she was telling me what jobs she thought would be fun.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, that sounds great.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_04: And she was like, but I don't need to get I I I would just do these things.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, okay, how are you gonna make like money?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: If that sounds like volunteering, which I love to volunteer, don't get me wrong.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_04: Are you gonna make some some money for yourself?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: And she was like, Well, my husband can just make the money.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, What am I doing?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I that is not in the narrative ever coming out of your household.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_04: So it's not the really curious where she got that.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's great if that's what people want.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I also I'm I am a feminist, I believe that every single one of us, men and women, should be able to decide how they want their life to look.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_04: That's what it really is at the end of the day.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, that we both easily have access to build the life that we want.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_04: That is your own choices.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: We all have freedom to make our own choices.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I said to her, oof, okay, how are you going to pay for things that you want?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_04: And it definitely stopped her and she had to think about it.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I I just want you to be thinking through like, do you like when you have to ask dad and I for something?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_04: Does it feel good to have to like you're waiting on us to say yes or no?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_04: Do you want to wait for dad to say yes or no?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: Do you want to wait for mom to say yes or no?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_04: Do you want to wait for a partner to say yes or no?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it was just a very interesting thing.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it opened up a whole new conversation.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: I, in the same way, I loved that she really was like, I want to follow my passions and I want to do what I want to do, and I want to spend my day in this way of giving back and doing.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_04: And so it was it was an interesting conversation.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'm curious how it'll grow over time.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: It'll change for sure.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I think the pressure is shifting.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_04: I think we're the way we're communicating with our with our kids about goals, I think they're less and less dependent on a partner.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_04: Or I think when you when we were younger, it was kind of your life, the future of your life had looked a certain way, and there was a partnership involved.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_04: And now I think we're shifting the narrative to what does your life look like for you?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a board, investors, advisors, and still have nobody you can actually talk to about what is really going on.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: That is not unusual.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: That is the founder reality.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we step in right there.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tom Powell, and at the founder's office, we're proud to sponsor Women Talk Finance.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: For you.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's really well said.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting too.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Mackenzie made a projection that women are expected to control much of the 30 trillion that burners will hold by 2030.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: So when you think of that, and and control can mean a lot of different things.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Either it's their own, or they're in this population of widows who have lost their spouse, or they're just more in finance, more in careers, that they're able to control some of this money.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Controls, there's a lot of different types of control, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the narrative is going to keep shifting.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see a pendulum correction anytime soon.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I really applaud whatever whatever your choices are.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: May we all be free to make them.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: So those that really, really want the traditional or the older structure of a, you know, a spouse and life kind of fitting the older model, great.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Love that for you.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I welcome conversation both here and then some other people, being like, it can look so different.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: It can look so, so different.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: That the traditional story is has lots of different colors and geometric shapes to it.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now it doesn't have to look one way.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_04: We're seeing this uptick in um the narrative for young men because it does seem that the loneliness epidemic is skewing younger males.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm I am curious in how, you know, how does that we've got this side of the coin where we've got women who are really kind of in the opting out?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_04: We're seeing it them, they're skewing higher on opting out of relationships.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so it is leaving this group of young men who are reporting loneliness.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: How do we address that?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_04: And do we see there being another swing where maybe men are choosing to be alone?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was gonna give a pretty funny answer.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny in my mind, but I'm like, I think there's a movie that already solved this, and it's called She.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Just AI girlfriends.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's right.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, that's right.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_04: If that's what people are all weird about it, I'm like, that sounds great.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like, if that's what some of these these people want, and they're not finding the partner that meets their needs, instead of AI girlfriend.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_04: Instead of trying to force women into having to being partnered up.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: Get yourself an AI girlfriend if that's what you want.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm here for it.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: Leave the women alone.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_04: They've done enough.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to be solutions-oriented here.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's also another avenue other than just AI girlfriends as our recommendation.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's connection, it's community and connection.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: How can you create those connections when they're otherwise missing for whatever reasons?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_04: I can leave, I can have time with my friends, even if it's not in-person time.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: It can be talking to you.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_04: You and I love nothing more than when somebody doesn't show up to a Zoom and you and I just had 20 minutes of.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we're like, totally.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: We just got 17 minutes.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: We are downloaded.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: We are connected.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: We are good.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_04: Always note takers on.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_04: Who cares?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_04: You're you're welcome for this treat of a conversation.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_04: Here's what I'm wearing.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um I get so much out of my friendships.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_04: I have very like I have a very rich, fulfilling social like life with my friends, right?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I don't have a lot of them, but I have deep connections with my friends.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that is something that may or may not be missing.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: And so how do we shift, how do we change that?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: Because that could cure the loneliness piece, I think.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about therapy before, I think.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think always, always encourage therapy.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and I think encouraging human-to-human connection, whatever your gender is, if you are feeling lonely, find ways to go out and connect with people.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Get off of your screens.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: You have to like something, I hope.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like whatever you would like.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care if it's pottery or fishing or running or a gun club, like whatever your thing is, go do your thing and get to know the people that are there doing that thing as well.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's their thing.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Bond over like common interests.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_04: I think you're you're spot on.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think kids model it really well.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: So there's some point where we start to like kind of divvy off into groups.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_04: But I see we and them.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: We we do that as humans.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: We we and them.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um watching my five-year-old versus watching my nine-year-old, the way that friendships and connection is made, the way that they play is is actually like insanely different.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_04: Five, it feels like they're kind of just all one big cluster of kids, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like just a horde of small people.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_04: And then, but I look at at my nine-year-old, and there is this like division of how how the girls interact and engage versus how the boys interact and engage.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't know how much of that is societal pressure, external, yeah, and also just development and this humanistic need to find our community.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so it is really interesting to see.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a core human need to be seen, no matter what your age is.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a brand new infant, you need your parents to see you and respond to you and pick you up if you're crying.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you are a 10-year-old, if you're a five-year-old, if you're a 20-year-old, if you're a 40-year-old, you need to be seen.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you're 60, you need to be seen.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the question to ask is how do I get seen and how do I see other people?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do I participate in a cyclical, mutually uplifting experience of that?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think of my brother who has moved several times, and his thing is running.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it could be whatever your thing is.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: He moves to a new city.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: What a psycho.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: He knows nobody, what a psycho, totally.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, moves to a new city and he joins a run club.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes run club is at 6 a.m.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: He does it.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's that's what brings him joy and connection and fulfillment and meaningfulness.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning, I am struggling.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: I am making up a lot of new vocab words that were previously there were none.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just gonna just toss them right into the dictionary.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: I'll just add them in.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: Can you just write it in?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: I do think that's beautiful.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_04: I think you know, uh, community sports things are always a great way to meet people.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_04: I've been seeing great things on just even like dads getting together before or after like after drop-off or something or before pickup to go and exercise, like together.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's really cool.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_04: Like build building that, building a community.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um there's there's there's options out there, and I hope people are accessing those.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I do sort of what kids oh go ahead.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, go ahead.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, just kids learning these skills, you can see it on the playground.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: The kids that want to be seen, and the ones that are struggling to make friends are usually the ones that have trouble seeing others, right?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like you start different ways teaching kids reciprocity.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so maybe one of these core things is teaching kids, you know, listen to what your friend wants, care about what they want.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: We all as people love to talk about ourselves.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we love to interject.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: So teaching young children, you know, ask them, ask them what they're interested in.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and teaching some of these core, like human skills at a younger level, even even older.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_04: I could always learn that skill over and over again.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: And my oldest has very strong leadership skills.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_04: She also has some leadership skills that could be developed, like collaboration.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: Girlfriend loves to lead.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like, she's like, Well, let me tell us, let me tell you all what we're doing today.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, awesome, let's get tonight.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like, let's we're working on the city.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do your friends, do your friends all feel good about that, about your plan?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having the plan.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do your friends feel good about that?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: And we talked about kids don't have phone skills now.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_04: We got a house phone, and now my kids are like having to learn how to be on a phone.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_04: They don't know how to answer a phone and how to carry a conversation.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_04: It's still me what they do.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So your five-year-old, if she were to answer a phone, what would she say right now?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: The first time she did it, she pushed the button and just held it to her ear.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just waited.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Waiting for something to happen.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy to laugh at that because we had the benefit of learning these things when we were little.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, totally.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_04: And then the new thing is too like they don't want to talk with it against their ear.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_04: They put it on speakerphone and they talk with it out like this.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and we have like a phone phone.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_04: And so they're like walking around with it on speaker.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but but it's funny because I'll hear there's just sometimes just silence.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_04: Just they get really close.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_05: It's also okay.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_04: But there will be Especially this episode's about being alone.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, but there will be just a weird amount of like like minutes of they're both on the phone together.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_04: Neither of them know what to say or ask.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, um, ask how their weekend was.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: So it is pretty funny.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: It is cute.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's silly to see kids learning how to talk on the phone.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I mean, I'm like, wow, if my kids don't know how to talk on the phone, how do other kids do other kids not know how to talk on the phone?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_04: Are we not learning this?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_04: Did we all we all answered the phone?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_04: Hello, you've reached the Powell residence.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like we all had to formally answer our phone, right?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_04: Everyone, we all did, right?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting too, because if the trend is toward women choosing to be alone, where are these young social skills mostly modeled, right?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be at school or in households where um kids kids need relationship modeling.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: How to be in a healthy relationship needs to be modeled to kids.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if people are choosing to be alone, that's not gonna be modeled in that environment.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be modeled again at school or in maybe relationships that aren't always the healthiest.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we navigate that for our young people?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_04: I was thinking about this because I did drop off um this week at school, you know, uh, and seeing the new teachers and things like that.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: Our school has actually quite a few male teachers, which I'm so excited about.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_04: And we have a co-teaching group, and both are males.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_04: And that made me really excited for a number of reasons.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_04: I thought it showed amazing, like co-working team work.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like they're they are working as a team, they are going to serve different needs, and these kids are getting modeling of two different men fitting this, like fitting these needs.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_04: And um I I just I've got a couple friends with kids in that class, and I'm like, this is gonna be such a great year for those kids to have, and both are really just wonderful humans.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, we I I think we need more, we need more diversity as amongst our our teaching community, I think, because that that models in the day-to-day um, I think the behavior, right?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: We would want to see.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, obviously, we just want the best teachers.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: We want we want great um educators and great models, but it would be great to have some diversity in there for for the kids.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: And obviously, healthy relationships.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_04: I I've got that statistic, so I'll lead I'll lead back in.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_04: So according to Reuters, um single women average around 12 hours of week uh per week on domestic labor.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh single men have fewer, spend fewer on household tasks than single women.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um when women get married, married women average 19 or more hours per week.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_04: That's a part-time job.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_04: So when we get married, this is and that's not with children, by the way.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_04: Just be being a married woman or a partnered woman adds seven hours.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_04: That's why women are, I mean, that makes sense, right?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_04: Like that we're tired.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_04: We're tired, we're tired, and for married men, it it actually goes down the number of hours per week that they work goes down from being a single man.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't I definitely the the takeaway here is I understand people's choices.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Again, whatever path you want to go down, love that we've got choices.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Love that there are more scenarios that are being normalized and more situations, love that people can be alone and they're happy and they're they're they're just fine.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're living their purpose.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it doesn't look the traditional way, and so what?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe at the core of all of this is lessons for kids and younger people coming up that your life gets to look however you want it.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the old model is being, again, what I used before, upheaved, upheaved.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you get to make your choices.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then whatever they are, let's please just work on healthy communication with younger people, no matter what that looks like.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Healthy communication about choices, how to find connection, whether they want it in their household or outside of the household.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, choose your relationships, but but know that communication is so important.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: And respecting everyone's choices on how they want to live is the the biggest takeaway.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think that's that is I'm not saying my the way my household runs is the way every household should run.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: It it's just not where are you?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Should we do a whole episode on that where you set the rules and you're like, here we go.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is how you're gonna run a household like me.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna look up some Rihanna lyrics because I think it was her that said, Live your life.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just totally.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's a song by TI featuring Rihanna.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: Of course it is.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Live your life.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_04: And to close out on Queens choosing their how they live their life, and and having a supportive partner, there have been some really great quotes from her partner on how successful she is and how what a badass she is, because she just is.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_04: She built such an amazing career and then has I don't know who her partner is.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_04: I guess.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_04: ASAP Rocky.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, okay.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but I've been googling ASAP Rocky quotes about Re her net worth is far exceeding his, and he has just been such a such a champion to acknowledge that.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's wonderful.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Are you finding him?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: He yeah, yeah, he ASAP Rocky does not use exact slang terms like baddie in his public interviews, but he frequently gushes about Rihanna's style, success, and status.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Famously quoting, no, sorry, famously calling their children together, their best creation, and stating, my woman got billions, I got multi-millions, her success isn't mine.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_04: Isn't that amazing?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_04: We talked about modeling, and I think that's really great.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_04: He does, he does clap her.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: He does.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Good job.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's setting a great example.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just set a great example of how to wrap a podcast episode using rap lyrics, and I think it should be a segment that we carry forward.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're not great at going like this, this shape, starting here and ending here.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: What we are fantastic at is starting over here and being like, next time.
• 38:28
  unknown: We do.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_04: We come in with a structure, and then then it turns into a different shape.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_04: But let's applaud all these, all these people out there that are um that are making choices for themselves and designing their lives the way they want them to be.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Great, great parting words.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's our cue to say bye.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Join us next time.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, subscribe.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, do that.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, subscribe, join us next time in that order.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that was today's episode of WTF.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: If you laughed, learned something, or felt a little less alone, make sure you hit follow.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: And send this episode to a friend who might need it.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Women don't gatekeep, especially not the good stuff.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: We'll be back next week with more real talk, more stories, and probably more over sharing.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time on WTF.