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Protecting Children Through Divorce: What Every Parent Should Know · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, a podcast covering all things relationships, separation and divorce.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: How to create healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships without sacrificing any part of yourself.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Supporting anyone feeling challenged in their relationship or marriage.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: These are confidential conversations for you if you're navigating separation, divorce or reorganising life afterwards.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Decide whether to stay or leave a relationship or marriage, divorce with less drama, and consciously choose what's next for you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Warrentry people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: I acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to this week's episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: And today I'm welcoming a very special guest on the podcast, Darren Mort.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Darren is a Melbourne-based family law barrister with a deep commitment to supporting families through separation and divorce.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: He has decades of experience in family law and works across Victoria and Interstate, helping clients navigate complex legal terrain with compassion and clarity.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: A strong advocate for mediation and child-focused resolution and pretty determined to see some changes in the family law system, Darren brings a unique blend of legal insight and creative passion to his work and wears many hats.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: As a professional actor and producer, he founded the To Be Loved Network, a registered charity using media to give children a voice in family law matters.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: His acclaimed short films Tommy and Millie are used to educate and inspire change.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Darren was named Barrister of the Year at the 2022 Australian Law Awards, and he is also the author of the children's book Tommy and Tiger Terry, on which the movie Tommy is based, the film Tommy I should say is based.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Above all, Darren is a devoted family man whose personal and professional experiences continue to shape his heartfelt approach to helping families move through conflict to resolution and a better way forward.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoy this conversation I shared with Darren Mort.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Darren, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's really great to have you along.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it's um a delight.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I'm sure it'll be a good conversation.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Let's start with just a little bit about you.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're a really experienced family barrister.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: You've been around for a little while, but I know that's only one part of what you do.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, how would you describe what you do today?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: What does an average day or week look like for Darren Will?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's kind of crazy uh because I wear a number of hats.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, like yesterday I had an audition in the morning.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: My agent sent me an audition for a commercial, which I had to shoot because it's not done in-house anymore.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: You just shoot them through your phone.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then I ran off to court, had a coffee, met my client, um, ran um the parenting matter, which we had to run, and then after that I had a conference with another client, caught up with a mate, had dinner, and then chilled at home.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's oh, and then I had a meeting too with um a scriptwriter, which we're telling you about later.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it's kind of weird.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: My my two worlds, my create creative world and my legal world, have clashed big time, and it's taking me on a big ride at the moment, Celia.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so in terms of clash, are they overlapping and you're finding that they're overlapping?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and they they're really feeding off each other, which is kind of cool.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very, very cool.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I didn't mean for it to happen, but it it has really happened.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: They they really are feeding on each other, and what it what's made for me is the two worlds clashing, it's made for a big world.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of stuff going on, yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of balls in the air.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: I want to I won't just take you back to family law rather than jumping into the creativity stuff just yet.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you've spent over three decades in the family law system.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: What patterns or recurring themes have you seen come up over the years?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of clients or in terms of the administration of the court?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let's probably talk about clients because I know I'm seeing, to be honest, Celia, I'm seeing much more family violence.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the last couple of years, it's been extraordinary how much family violence there is uh in the court.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know whether it's because the legislation's changed and people are grabbing on to those amendments or whether it's just always been there.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think the magistrates' court would tell you the intervention orders, there's been a steady rise in those.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So perhaps it's not the amendments, perhaps it's just society in general.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I've also seen since COVID there's been a lot, a lot of disharmony in the community, and and people aren't prepared to tolerate probably what they once were prior to COVID.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm seeing a lot of people with who need coping tools, um, who need to address their impulsive behaviors, who need education about how to be better parents, um, parents who have lost focus.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think I think things have really gone downhill.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's I'm seeing it too in my work and hearing it in in conversation throughout the community.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um people asking, is is there more, is there more family violence or as are we just reporting and bringing forward more?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a bit of both.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I really do, but the violence has been quite you know extraordinary, like graphic and you know, and and I said to a barrister today, I said, um, I I just can't understand like the women in the court how often they punch um below their weight with men.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I it sounds awful coming from a man, and I'm gender neutral.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you that right now, as you know, with all the work I do for children, I'm very gender neutral.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: But time and time again in the family court, I see women who tend to put up with a lot of crap, and it's not until their baby cubs are affected that they decide that, well, I can't put up with this anymore.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: In saying that too, I've seen some vicious women there too, who manipulate the system, who get intervention orders, kick, get men kicked out of their homes, men don't get to see their children.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen those women as well, um, too, and they they tend to use the system, and the sis the system's designed for them because of the delays and the costs, and it can be very manipulative as well.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think there's manipulation, and I'm sure you've seen it, um, manipulation and uh abuse of the system on both sides, yeah, across the gender.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of women punching below their weight, I think you know that's years and years and decades and hundreds of years of societal punishing.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that but let's let's stick with let's stick with why we're here.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to ask what led you to expand, I guess, your work and your advocacy into storytelling and film.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that was that was a very um, yeah, it was a moment in time that really hit me in the face.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was seconded to the Domestic Violence Task Force Committee reporting to the Royal Commission on Family Violence that was chaired by the chief magistrate at the time, um Lauritson and the Melbourne Magistrates Court.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that committee comprised, I think it was about 13 women and two men.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and oh, sorry, two men and myself.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and those men were police officers, uh family violence, uh, police officers.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I saw a lot of people doing a lot of triage work for people dropping from these cliffs, families, you know, helping them out with housing, um, legal um stuff, um, basic needs, um, um, family violence, protection, all sorts of stuff.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I I was really quite struck.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I thought these people are doing such an incredible job.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought, wouldn't it be nice if someone trekked up to the top of that cliff face and stopped people and families jumping in the first place?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: So prevention became a big thing for me.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, how can we do it better?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And um curiously, I was I was having an arhroscopy at the time, and I I went into the um the surgeon's office and he said, Oh, look, um the receptionist said, before you see Dr.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Smith, um, you need to go and see this film.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I went I went into this little room and saw a film about it, it was an anime, how to do an arthroscopy, what it involves.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then I went into another room and spoke to the surgeon.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: He told me all about it.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: The reason for that story is that I thought, what a wonderful way to explain things basically to people and then provide them with fodder for questions after that viewing.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I thought, images are so powerful.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And as an actor, I know for me, imagery is that's how my brain ticks.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if I said to you now, Sally Ann, what's your three top movies?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Bang, they'd come straight into your head, and you would visually recall some of the favorite scenes from those movies.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Your brain would do that.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, wouldn't it be great to do some films, write some stories, um, get the books published, and do a do a film that accompanies that book so that people can use it, parents and kids can use it as a resource.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um as a as a way, the books as a way of opening up communications with children, exploring with children uh how they're impacted, um, how they feel, um, um, why they're anxious, things like that.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: But also the feel, the film's packing a punch with parents, um, teaching them subtly and not so subtly um how to better focus on their children.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think the the biggest the biggest um tool that we have as practitioners in this space is that it doesn't matter the demography, the race, whatever.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, parents want what's best for their children.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and that's the starting point.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now they may have different ways of doing it and they may need to learn more.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying I'm a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination, but um, we can all learn.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think these films teach people from a basic level um things that maybe they hadn't thought of before.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why the films have been so impactful.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and having seen having seen both Tommy and Millie, they're really impactful.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think as humans, we connect through storytelling, right?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: You and I are telling stories now, we're sharing stories.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think there's real power in using that as a tool for education and expansion of knowledge so we can do better.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's our origins, isn't it?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Look, you know, going back to when we lived in caves, I suppose, uh, we all we all used to sit around the campfire and tell stories.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, our indigenous population still do it.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and unfortunately, we don't get time to do it because our lives are so busy, so impacted by responsibilities outside the family unit.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I always say to clients, you know, your most powerful therapeutic tool for kids is the kitchen table.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's where you learn about what's going on in your kids' lives, you know, get rid of the devices, sit down and talk, and you learn, you learn an absolute shitload, don't you, from kids?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: The other one I often find is um, or I found my kids are now driving themselves, but in the car, if you can put the devices down in the car and actually have a conversation.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, parents whinge about that in the family call.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: They go, ah, you know, I've got to drive half an hour to her place, or I've got to drive half an hour to his place.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: I said to them, you have a perfect opportunity to sing happy tunes to the wiggles with your kid in the car, or talk to your kid about their life, about what they love doing, about any concerns they have.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's an absolute prime opportunity to learn, to be curious, and to listen to your children, to really listen to your children, not only hear them, but listen to them.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's going to take me to the next question, which is going to sound like a really obvious question to you, to me, but it's not.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I want to ask you, why is it so important that children's voices are heard, not just in the car with their parents, but through separation, divorce, even beyond?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think because without insulting adults, I think we're all prime to, you know, the voice of the child.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And let's let's make amendments to the Family Law Act and really focus in on the voice of the child.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's all lip surface.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is all absolute spin doctor rubbish.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we have judges in the family court, some are fantastic.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: We've got judges up there that have got no family law training, that are not trauma-informed, um, making decisions about children.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have provisions in the Act that provide for judges to speak to children.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that any of them speak to them?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's really important that us as practitioners in this space look outside the square in terms of ways that we can not only keep parents out of court because it's useless, the court system is useless.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Keep and it's a last resort for some people, but try to keep people out of court and to really give kids a voice in a space that's safe and stress-free, and a space where parents can hear what they've got to say.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we should be doing.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Can we just head the podcast right there?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's what we should be doing, but we won't.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: We'll continue.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, it it's it's a really frustrating system, I find to work in where the lip service is paid to, you know, the children's voices, but they're not heard.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, they're they're not heard, and it frustrates me.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I said to a judge the other day, look, I'm I'm fed up with this, Your Honor.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: You must be fed up with it too.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: I said, My opponent over there, he's doing a great job, but what he's brought into court is a bucket of mud to slag my client, the parent of this child off as much as possible.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm paid to do the same thing, don't get me wrong.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: But really, in 1975, when the Family Law Act was brought into being, there were full court decisions that said this act is designed with parenting matters to be a positive inquiry into the best interests of children.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it is now?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Nah.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's the best interests of parents.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I think.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And with judges who are handicapped because they've lack of knowledge and experience, with practitioners that sometimes are handicapped because they don't do the work they should, by ICLs that aren't properly trained and or aren't experienced enough to speak to children, um, even though there's training, training for it, um, it's a joke.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: If if the system, if someone lifted a veil on the on the court and let people go in and understand what what's actually going on, people would be horrified.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it's only because I'm so senior and I've been there for what 35 years that I don't care anymore.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not disrespectful.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: There are some amazing judges there and some incredible practitioners, but there are also the others and the political appointments that are made with people who haven't got experience, you know?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and kids, and people say, Oh, you know, um people can learn on the job.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, no, they can't.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: These are little people's lives and and big people, but when we're talking about the children, right?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: These are children's lives.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and you can't practice on some kids' life.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, and sometimes sometimes you make a real difference to kids' lives, and it's palpable.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've got a case, we ran it so well, the judge was so experienced.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I won't mention any names, but he was just an excellent judge.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the ICL was amazing, so experienced, and her barrister so experienced.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: And even the mother's counsel was incredible as well.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we all worked together to get the best result.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: We fought the case hard, it went for 38 days.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: But those little boys were nine when the case started, they were 12 when the case finished, and they now live with their dad full-time.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, mum has contact with them now.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but those boys have just changed so much.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're captains of their school, they they um they're in bands, um, rock bands, um, they play sports, they have such a different life with their father because of the mother's shortcomings, you know, and that's not her fault.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: That was just that was her as a person, but because of her shortcomings, they were better off with the father.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So he sends me videos and all sorts of things with the kids.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that because it it reminds me continually um the responsibility that we have as practitioners and the fact that when a job's done well, we can really, really um make a change to children's lives.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: What a great story.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's talk about Tommy and Tiger Terry.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Where did where did the idea for your book, Tommy and Tiger Terry?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: A case.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: A case.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was an independent children's lawyer at Barrister, and this little boy, um, we'll call him, we'll call him Tommy.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Tommy um used to um disassociate, and he had a friend called Joey, who was a blue kangaroo.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in fact, there were many kangaroos in Tommy's room.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: They all used to jump out of his wardrobe, and he was so stressed.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: His mother had bipolar um and she wasn't functioning very well.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: The father was loving and caring, but had been removed effectively from the child's life because the mother had effectively alienated the child a little bit from the father and meshed the child, and that's where the idea came from.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that little boy took him three years to stop seeing kangaroos.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: He had the father got custody, took him three years, but again, that case changed that little boy's life, uh, the way it was run.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and um happily he stopped seeing the kangaroos.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, well, let's have a tiger um instead of a kangaroo.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how Tommy came around.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: And what about Millie?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: What drew you to tell Millie's story, and what did you hope I guess what did you hope to share about Millie and Millie's story?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Or with I should say with sharing Millie's story?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think Millie's story was there to dispel what our grandmothers used to say to us, children should be seen and not heard.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um as a child growing up, um I was exposed to a lot of family conflict, and my parents used to argue a lot in front of us children.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so the story of Millie has a lot of me in it as a child growing up, and that anticipatory anxiety when parents come together or dad comes home or all of that.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's at the shallow end of the pool compared to Tommy, because Tommy's parents have been going at it for some time, but Millie's parents are really, as you know, um, with the parents just um at the brink of whether they're gonna break up or not.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I needed people to understand that um in this day and age we live in the children are seen and they do hear.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: I always say to my clients, even when you think they can't hear, if they are in the space, be absolutely mindful about what you're saying.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: And generally with my clients, they're already separated.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: So perhaps it's speaking about the other parent or about the matter about what's going on.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: If your kid's in the house, do not talk about it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's it's so impactful.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you were at the showing and um Dr.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Ben Jones spoke about the impact on children.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: And It's it's so compelling.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: We don't really like even myself as a parent, God, I I don't fight much.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: My wife and I don't fight much.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's a personal detail.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know why.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: We just don't fight, which is lovely.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: But um but for parents that do, or even parents that give each other the silent treatment, the tension that that creates, you know, it's probably even worse than f than verbal going at each other.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um the tension must be terrible.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So children, I always imagine, and this is how I imagine Tommy, because Tommy, Tommy initially, the opening scene was him arriving on a beach with an army of kids, like a saving private rhyme.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I often think of kids in the middle of a battlefield with their, you know, their metal hat on with their machine gun in hand, um, with two bunkers occupied by their parents on either side of them, watching the hand grenades flying over.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's how I mentioned, that's how I've visualised children in conflict.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just not on.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's just not on, Sally Ann.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: If what I'm sharing about in this episode or any episode is speaking to you and you would like to explore working more closely with me, there is an opportunity to book a free intro call with me in the show notes.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to support you through your own reflect, reclaim, and liberate coaching experience.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's a quote that Vin, I think it's attributed to Vince Papaleo, um, where well not attributed to, he speaks about it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: One of his the client child said said something like, I'm half my mum and half my dad, and when they fight, it feels like the two halves of who I am are in conflict or pulled apart, and I can't feel whole.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I always think about I think about that.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that speaks, I think, so directly to what both Tommy and Millie are going through in the films.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's another diagram, a picture that Vince uses in in his presentations, and it's a burning house with children up on the top floory floor hanging out the window with the flames, and the parents at the front arguing, and they're not concerned about the children, they're arguing about who started the fire.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: I laugh, but but it's not funny.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, very true, isn't it?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's true.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that thing that you just mentioned, um, it's I always say to people uh people um in the witness box, I say, Do you understand that the child thinks they're made up of both of you?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the witness says, Yes.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And do you understand when you have a crack at the the mother, that that part of the child that identifies with the mother is being hurt by you?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's it.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's simple.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're a lot less complex than what we think, us human beings.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, anyhow, and children are a lot more resilient than what we give them credit for, I'm sure.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not on.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's not on.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just shut your mouth, just shut up and put yourself in a room and talk to yourself in the mirror about how you feel about your partner.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the child doesn't need that burden.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is a burden, right?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's a burden that they have to carry.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're getting it from both sides, there's a double burden.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that and that's where there is real hope.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the in my view, that's where the gold nuggets lie.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of these parents, um, they're difficult.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the ones I see um are very difficult to get through.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the times you're dealing with personality um traits as well, as you would deal with.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're a lot hard, they're a lot harder to get the message through.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: That though the films do help, the films do tell a story.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but children are the gold nuggets.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's where we can affect real change.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I had Tommy and Tiger Terry was um I was asked to go to some northern suburb school.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: They had 586 students, and there were 118 different cultures at this school, right?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I sat in the gymnasium, it was full of kids, and they were quite as mice as I read to them Tommy and Tiger Terry on a microphone.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they had two representatives from each class come up to me um to ask me questions and give them a signed book.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And little Noah from grade three came up, and Noah said to me, Oh, Darren, thanks for the book.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I read it and um I could really relate to it as because my mum and dad split up, and when they were together, they used to fight a lot, but now their dad lives around the corner.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: I spend alternate weekends and that with dad and time in the off week, but they don't argue anymore.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, that's really great, Noah.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, But that's not my question.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: The question is, is there a little bit of Tommy in you?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, what the hell?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, out of the out of the mouths of babes, you know.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: These kids know so much more, and we give them far less credit than they deserve in terms of what they take in and the difficulties they have in processing situations where they're embroiled in a sea of conflict.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: What insight that little Noah had.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to ask you something quite specific about both Tommy and Millie, because they both, and um, without giving anything away or without giving too much away about either film, they both escape into their imagination, their inner world, but in in different ways.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Are these forms of dissociation, which is something you mentioned earlier, or something else?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: What were you sort of exploring about children's coping mechanisms in that part of the film?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Those those parts of the films, I should say.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I didn't want to be actually specific.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um like Millie's is a little bit more ambiguous because of her situation.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: With Tommy, um definitely the tiger is a dissociation, but the times that the times that you find him in the submarine are times where his mind is is really trying to process his feelings of isolation, his feelings of not being heard, um, his feelings of fear.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and as adults, we commonly have dreams um whereby our brains are trying to process things and try to make sense of the real world.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Tommy's escape into his dream world um is just that.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: He's trying to make sense of it all.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, his his imaginary friend um is another thing.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, kids dissociate all the time, you know.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we do as adults too.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: We can be staring out the window and you know, all of a sudden we come back and we don't know where we've been.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um for Tommy, it's a bit more palpable than that, I suppose, because of what he's what he's going through.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I was trying to explore dreams a bit with that.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um thank you for sharing a little bit more insight into what's underneath or behind the films.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted also to ask you because you are someone who is so experienced and deeply embedded in the family law system, but also obviously empathic to the system and it as also and as well as its flaws, what would you most like to see changed in how on a really practical level we respond to children caught in separation, particularly high higher conflict separation?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so look, it's a very deep swimming pool, um, or sorry, a long swimming pool.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's people splashing down the shallow end and people treading water down the deep end.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd like to see a specialist tribunal set up um with a judge who is experienced in family violence, trauma informed, and I'd like them to sit there with a psychologist, um clinical psychologist, and this is on my wish list, and I'd like every file to be assigned a clinical psychologist.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'd like also for people to um really give mediation a real shot, um, child-inclusive mediation, before they're even allowed to come to the tribunal to have their case heard.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think too many people go too hard and they they they pull the family violence card and say we're not doing it.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and too many people don't involve the children in the decision making, and so their wishes only become apparent at court, um, where it's probably too late because damage has already occurred.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's what I'd like to see.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think the family court, when it was first set up, as I said, it had some real merit, but over the years it's changed really, it's changed significantly.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they haven't been every time they've tried to change a system, it's just created more work.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and I don't think I just don't think it's working at the moment.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the the delays are horrific.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm up in Brisbane at the moment.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: The delays up here are one and a half to two years to get on, you know.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Melbourne's just as bad.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: The costs are incredible, you know.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do not know how people afford it.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people would say, oh, lawyers are, you know, anyone can afford, lawyers can afford proceedings.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if someone said to me, my marriage is on the rocks, um, it's all over, um, you'll have to go and see a lawyer, I would really struggle to see where I'm gonna raise the money given that um everything is split in a property settlement.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are delays in the system, um, and then you go before judicial officers, you don't know who you're gonna get.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: But the worst thing about it, the worst thing about it, Celyan, is that, and people don't people don't give any credit credence to this.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: People and children more importantly enter the system traumatized.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what the system does, it's like this big wound on your arm.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: And what the system does is people are picking at that trauma and bleeding more and more.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of the proceedings, we've still got this huge scar because we haven't had time for it to form a scab.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're still bleeding, and to make and to rub uh rub um salt into the wound, the lawyer, and they do their work, says, here's the bill for$100,000 or$200,000.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and by the way, um, the judge won't have judgment for the next three to six months.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes later, I had a judgment the other day.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: The judge took 14 months to deliver the judgment, right?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you'll have to put up with that.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: But look, good luck.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: I hope it all goes well for you and your family.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, is that a service?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then on top of it, I'm not on my soapbox now, Sally Ann, then on top of it, we get judgments from um one judgment from Justice Austen, um Lanehart's case, which says, well, the family court's not here to issue social jurisprudence.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he doesn't say this, but he basically says it we're here to tick a box.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're here to deal with people as we find them and apply the law.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you very much, because that's where the family court didn't start out.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we can't even really ask judges now, oh, if a husband's got some difficulties and needs, I'm just using a husband as an example, needs a safety net to move forward with the contact arrangements.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Court's not really interested in that.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's a matter for him.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like we need to burn the system to the ground and start and start anew with a trauma-informed lens across right across all of it.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it needs it needs a committee of people who are experienced in family law, judges, social scientists, lawyers, barristers, um, to to do that.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the politicians think they can do it, but they they can't.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what do they know about it at the end of the day?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it just yeah, it's got I I think I think there's also not a lot of respect given to people who are experienced in the system now.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think um people are overlooked um in terms of what they've got to offer, I think, because we need quick fixes.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I do say one thing though, during COVID, the Chief Justice did an incredible job getting the court online so quickly.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think out of any court in the country, the family court was online quick smart.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: That was an incredible effort and no doubt um assisted many, many children.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's some really good things the court does, but it's just the administration.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: It just, you know, it's got out of hand.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's go back to listeners who are perhaps navigating separation.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Gonna move away from system back to the humans at the at the center.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, perhaps navigating separation or even in conflict with a a co-parent after separation, divorce.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: So for those who are in the thick of it, what would you say to them, say to those parents specifically about how to best protect their children's emotional safety, even when things are painful or complicated or tricky adult to adult.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: I say to more my clients, the first thing I say is, what are you doing for yourself?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: How are you caring for yourself?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the old analogy of the plane, you know, the oxygen mask comes down, the parent puts on theirs first before the child.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they really need to develop tools into how to address the psychological and emotional needs and physical needs of their children, but also develop tools in how to relate to the other party.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know that's difficult in some cases because of family violence, but even when there's family violence, there's ways that you can negotiate with the other party and be safe about it.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really important.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, take care of yourself because it is such a stressful time for parents, and then to have to look after children as well.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, being in an intact family and having three kids myself, um it's it's hard work, as you know, Sally Ann, you know, it's really hard work, but to do it in a situation that has a dysfunctional dynamic, it's even more difficult.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the kids are the victims.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: So do something for yourself, you know, be curious, find out how you can do things better for yourself and for your kids.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, that's that's absolutely crucial, don't you think?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: I just said to a client earlier today, put it all down.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's overwhelming, your nervous system is you know, it's so activated, you can't make a smart or or educated, you can't make a decent decision here.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: Put it all down, make yourself a cup of tea.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's freezing here in Melbourne today, but go and stand outside with your cup of tea.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Do nothing.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, do nothing for five minutes.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: I and I really often tell clients, and I know some of them will be listening and they'll be chuckling, because yeah, do nothing for five minutes twice a day.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just great advice.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Just stop because it's so all-consuming, particularly if it's high conflict or you know, you've you're preparing documents for disclosure or whatever it is.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you've got to call Centerlink and be all like all the things.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: Put it down, put it down for five minutes.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and do something nice for yourself, too, whether it's going to get your nails done or going to haircut or what you whatever you want to do.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Go for a run, whatever it is.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing too is that people need to arm themselves with with um people who are singing from their songbooks.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure you've got the right lawyer.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, make sure you've got the right lawyer that fits.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: So women go off to obstetricians when they're having babies.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my daughter's having one at the moment, a baby, and she didn't like her obstetrician.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: So she's gone off and interviewed a couple of others, and she's found someone that that clicks with her now and her husband.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's great.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think people should interview their lawyers and work out whether they fit with them and also barristers.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, solicitors, some solicitors are like casting agents.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: They they hopefully get the right barrister for the case, but sometimes they don't.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they don't.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: So go if you with a solicitor, say, well, look, who do you who do you who do you reckon should should get the job for this?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Solicitor says, okay, we'll have Darren, Sally Ann and Mickey.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, um, I wouldn't mind having a chat to those three barristers before you engage with them just to get the feel whether they're on the same songbook, whether they're singing them from the same songbook as me, and or whether I can just communicate with them.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: And because you're paying these people, professionals, a lot of money.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: So don't be stupid.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just because, well, I'm not the sort of barrister, as you know, that puts myself on a on a throne and thinks I'm superior to everyone else.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not saying that barristers and solicitors do that, but don't be scared of them.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Go and talk to them and make sure they're the right fit for you because you're going to be with that person for some time in the family law system, and you need to develop a relationship with them.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that relationship has to be laced with a level of trust.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and can I say something else?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: In caring for yourself, um, get a get a good coach.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not just giving you a plug for that.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: I always say to people, get a good coach.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely crucial.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: You need a good coach, you need a good psychologist around you, you need a good lawyer, you need a good barrister, right?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: And a good childminder at times.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you need to surround yourself by with a village of people that are going to offer you support during a very crucial and upsetting time.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: I always talk about scaffolding clients.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, it might also be the naturopath or the physiotherapist or that, you know, whoever it is, all of those people.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: And as you said, make sure that they are people you can communicate with well that are willing to listen to you as well as offer their expertise and advice and that they are seeing from the same songbook.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I say to people, look, um, we get to court, and of course, barristers, because we're trained this way, we always look for the weaknesses in cases.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's some sometimes I think we're grim reapers.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I always say to clients, look, I don't care.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: I've prepared your case.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I need you to understand the risks.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm satisfied that you are fully informed, that's all I need to know.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: You're not stupid, you can make a choice from there.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can walk through the golden arches and we can um roll the dice and see what happens, or you can try and resolve it.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: The things I would say to parents, though, is if you can resolve it, it's better because an outcome that you agree upon as a mother and father of those children is likely to be a lot more solid outcome than leaving it to a judge who's doing the best they can but doesn't really know your kids.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the lawyers don't know your kids.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: You as parents, you know your kids better than anyone, you know?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to put over yourself.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's much better off in in the family coffers, paying for your kids' lives, really.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I had a case last year that my client had paid their lawyers 1.8 million.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: 1.8 million.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know what he got for it?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Zip.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Absolute zip.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lesson to be learned in that, you know, there really is.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Again, going back to what you said, nobody knows your children like the two of you as parents.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can find a way to to agree, to come to an agreement that's near enough, good enough, it might not be everything that you want, everything that the other one wants, but it is child-centered, child focused.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: You've got a much better chance of that leading you forward as a family.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: even a separated family and roll rolling the dice with the judge absolutely and there's some lovely judges who who really care who really take their role seriously and really care for outcomes for children but even that being so you know the kids not in the courtroom they're not going to get they're not going to get a feel you see if I if I was a judge I'd get the kids up there to start with number one I'd put their photo on the inside the court file so when I open it up I would see their faces their happy faces secondly I'd get the kids up there and say listen you know Darren call me Darren I'm here with the independent children's lawyer you know mum and dad are doing their best they're trying to sort this out if they can't sort it out I'm gonna sort it out for them you don't need to worry because we're gonna do the best possible thing we we can for you and we're gonna really listen to what you want.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: You mightn't get what you want but we're gonna really listen to what you want and why you want it.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of the case I'd explore I'd get the kids up there again and explain the orders to the kids.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know I'd just make it a bit more a bit more less removed you know less removed a bit more human yeah child focused and child focused yeah yeah anyhow anyway thank you so much for your time in closing are there any upcoming screenings of either Tommy or Millie that listeners can access yeah sure so Tommy is on Apple I TV um for a a um for two dollars ninety nine that money goes to the charity to be love networked um to be love.org.au is the website we um so apple eye tv have tommy um millie is just new and it's gonna be doing the festival circuit we are having a showing um go on to my Facebook um millie's there's a web there's a little page there um we're gonna be in Queensland in Brisbane on the 17th of July um the 7th of August in Darwin and later in Perth um we are going to be back in Melbourne uh in September I'm shooting for the 14th of September we'll show Millie again um Vince Papaleo and myself do a Tough Tell series and that is um we we take that on the road um around to different locales and we show both Tommy and Millie ummy runs with the discussion paper and we tease out some of the issues involving child trauma uh in that particular film um that's been really worthwhile actually Sullivan's been I just love sitting there listening to Vince because you know I learn so much about child because I'm not obviously not a psychologist but um I I learn a lot from him and you know speaking to speaking to people outside my little um pond it's I always find it fascinating because you learn so much um so that's that's that yeah um um people can go to my website and see what's going on um darrenmort.com.au um but other than that there you go oh and oh sorry and the books are available through Wilkinson Publishing so I think it's called wilkinson publishing.com dot au they're my publishers you can buy the books through them as well.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'll drop links in the show notes for all of that.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much finally how can the listeners our reflect community further support your advocacy um they well um we produce resources at to be loved um to get the to get the message out there it's a not-for-profit um we have DGR status so people can get a deduction for any donations um none of us earn any money at to be loved from our work for the charity we all do it pro bono um and so how they can help is if they see me on Facebook or LinkedIn or anything like that sharing my posts about child focused matters they can assist by um donations to to be loved uh it doesn't matter how much it all helps um producing these resources and what's what's been really compelling and you probably would have got a flair of this Sally Ann at the latest screening is that I've really noticed how people are sick of the government and sick of the court system and it's the issues that lay there in terms of delays and costs and there is a really strong voice out there to promote children for the better and to actually give them a voice and I think as we were talking about villages before I think surrounding surrounding ourselves with a strong village is going to make a real difference and there's some amazing people out there I mean look at you getting me on with this show giving me a soapbox to to to inform people about some of the issues and the relevant matters we've discussed today so create that image um not the image create the create the voice make it strong um get out there and help people um if there's people involved with schools for example that have parent um parent teacher nights or professional development nights I'm happy Vince is happy we're happy to go out to the schools and provide education to people um I'm very user friendly so yeah so drop me a line um through the website or my email which is on the website and and just connect with me um and we can make this happen.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's about momentum and noise isn't it yeah and utilizing professional people and in the field and discussing issues people have parents have got I started up a tick it's sorry to blabber on but I started up a TikTok recently thanks to my daughter who's an influencer and the amount of inquiries I get from that TikTok incredible and it doesn't matter how basic the questions are there are questions troubling people that need to be answered.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah so get in there for the team and let's let's make it happen.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: Darren Moort thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge and your wisdom for getting on your soapbox that's what we've that's why we've got this platform right in part for a soapbox.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a great conversation no thank you Sally Anne it's been very enjoyable talking to you thank you I really hope you enjoyed that conversation between me and Darren and gained something learned something from it.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: You can connect with the ToBelove network via the link in the show notes look out for screenings of Tommy and Millie near you or reach out to Darren directly if you are interested in attending or hosting a screening as always thank you for being here if you know somebody who would benefit from listening to this conversation if you know somebody who is thinking about separation divorce and is concerned that it might go high conflict and this would be a supportive conversation for them to hear please share it with them.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: But the more people that hear these conversations before heading down a high conflict pathway the better.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: We can do better we need to do better and I hope this conversation supports at least one family to navigate their separation divorce in ways that are supportive and healthy for their children.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening bye for now I'm Sally Ann Hartnell divorce coach and strategist and you've been listening to Reflect, reclaim and liberate you can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching and if you can think of anyone who would love or benefit from listening to this episode please share it with them.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'd also be so grateful if you would follow and review the podcast so we can get in the ears of a whole lot more people just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you'll join me next week for another episode of Reflect, reclaim and liberate.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: Until then