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Trust, Creativity, and What We Risk When Adopting AI (EP 20) · The In-Between Tech and Trust Podcast

0:14
Hello this is. Eva, and you're listening to the
0:17
In Between Tech and Trust podcast.
0:20
In this week's episode, we dive deep into the intersection of
0:23
creativity and ethics because my guest this week is one of the
0:28
experts talking about exactly that intersection.
0:31
And I'm joined by Ivona Flouda, and she is founder of the
0:35
Ministry of Creativity and also the head of AI and Content
0:39
growth at Dream Leap. And together, we focus at the
0:42
intersection of tech, trust, creativity, and ethics.
0:46
And we also do want to talk about what kind of
0:49
responsibility each and every one of us has, but also how it
0:53
can be distributed on an organizational level.
0:56
There are some examples that Evona shares from her
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experiences in collaborating with different kinds of
1:03
companies about the implementation of AI in the
1:07
creative industries, but also how technology governance and
1:11
inclusivity become even more important in the AI era.
1:16
How we also need to focus on cultural and societal adoption
1:21
to automation, the potentials of the inclusive design in
1:25
organizations, and why, in her opinion, it's so important to
1:29
talk about the design choices that shape long term societal
1:33
outcomes. I'm so happy to have you on the
1:38
In Between podcast session for today, Ivona, And I'm looking
1:42
forward to our conversation on the context of tech, trust,
1:46
creativity, but also the impacts of ethics together.
1:49
It's really amazing to be here. Thank you for the invitation.
1:53
And before we dive into like the hard facts of it all, I would
1:56
love to hear your take on what comes to your mind first when we
2:01
look into the intersection of tech and trust, and also what
2:06
context you find yourself in when it's trading on it.
2:09
I really love this question because what comes to my mind is
2:12
actually the lack of trust and not trust itself.
2:16
You know, we know trust from the very human perspective.
2:18
We trust each other or we don't trust each other.
2:21
We don't have yet this connection, this trustful
2:24
connection established with technology at all.
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And of course, what doesn't help here is that we don't really
2:30
trust the big corporations behind the tools that are being
2:34
created and that we are using very naively very often.
2:37
So I don't think that we have yet the trust itself between us
2:41
individuals and the tools, but also between us individuals, our
2:44
community, our society and the big corporations.
2:47
I think the lack of stress is something that definitely need
2:50
to address here. And if you look into your past
2:54
and experiences and like being also at the forefront of the
2:58
topic, was there a moment that you experienced, be it with like
3:02
projects or colleagues or also in Society of when you realize
3:07
that AI would fundamentally or like, let's say, reshape
3:10
creativity, not just enhance it? And maybe that's also to widen
3:15
the perspective and not just AI, but also technology in itself.
3:18
Absolutely. I feel like there were many
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moments like this. I was very lucky to jump very
3:23
early into the AI tools and just test them.
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I was just very curious about all of the things of the
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interfaces and the technologies behind that.
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But then I realized that, well, there's something is changing
3:33
here. Because at the very beginning we
3:35
talked about a lot about our AI tools as collaborators.
3:39
AI told us amplifiers, our skills, but we also discovered
3:43
down the line that actually the AI tools are actually pretty
3:46
dangerous for our brains as well.
3:48
We learn, for example, thanks to the MIT Media Lab studies that
3:53
when we outsource our knowledge to AI tools, that we just don't
3:56
engage our brains with AI tools properly.
3:59
Then we kind of, we are getting Dumber, just to summarize the
4:02
very long studies. And that's something that really
4:04
changed something within me and the way how approach AI tools.
4:08
And that's actually true because what happens is that we just
4:11
don't engage our brain. Our brain just doesn't work
4:14
properly. We outsource everything to AI
4:16
tools. Therefore we don't have the, we
4:18
don't create the needed connections for the brain parts
4:22
to, to connect together. And I feel like that's very
4:25
dangerous long term because it just basically makes us not just
4:29
Dumber as we say, but also it makes us kind of immune towards
4:33
knowledge and creating knowledge and creating new neural
4:36
connections. And I feel like that's much more
4:38
dangerous in general when it comes to creativity.
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We know for example, right now from different studies that over
4:44
50% of content that we see on LinkedIn is not human generated,
4:48
is AI generated. So here's also a question, is it
4:51
OK or not? You know, I'm a little bit
4:53
biased because I love creating and I love writing and I do it
4:55
very often and I try to engage with my creative manual and
4:59
community skills. But I know that most people
5:02
don't or many people I know also in my environment don't do it.
5:05
So the question is, what do we do with that on the individual,
5:08
individual level, but also on the community and societal
5:11
level? When we think about creating a
5:14
generation that doesn't engage cognitively with topics is
5:18
creating again like a more creating generation that is not
5:20
going to be able able to question things in a way and
5:24
that can have a disastrous result in general for the.
5:28
Future. If you paint that picture of the
5:31
future, I could also just ask, well, are we doomed?
5:35
But knowing you and also from our previous conversations, I
5:39
know that you're not the perception that we're doomed.
5:42
On the contrary, you also see it as I quite the opportunity.
5:45
However, to me, it feels like that you propose that we're at a
5:49
crossroads of like particularly creativity, but also ethics and
5:54
emerging tech. And according to you, your
5:57
experience, and also the way that you engage with thought
6:00
leaders, what do you think is the biggest cultural shift that
6:03
you see happening as AI becomes a tool or a competitor in
6:07
creative work? So first of all, you're totally
6:09
right. One side is a very dark side of
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the future we can picture. The other side is a very light
6:15
or our right side. I feel like what we need to do,
6:17
we need to kind of give ourselves the grace of holding 2
6:21
very opposite possibilities in our hands and say like, look,
6:24
this can happen. This can also happen.
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What can we do about this? How can we find the balance and
6:30
the in betweens that will enable us to make sure that individuals
6:34
but also society at large retries through the
6:36
transformation that we're all going through anyway.
6:38
So actually it's both. And when I think about this, you
6:42
know, outsourcing our creative skills to social media, to AI
6:46
tools, it's happening already. But what is also happening is
6:49
that creative people like marketeers, you know, people in
6:52
the field, right, they're losing their jobs because of AI tools.
6:56
So that's a huge change. And when I think about this, at
7:00
the very beginning, everyone was talking about, oh, yeah, we are
7:02
going to automate everything. Therefore people are going to
7:05
have more time. Therefore, we are going to have
7:07
more time to get more creative and to engage with our
7:10
creativity. That's for now, but that's not
7:12
the case yet. For now, we see people losing
7:15
their jobs and being basically laid off in thousands and
7:17
thousands, especially in the US When we see what is happening,
7:20
they're also on the technological front.
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So you cannot tell me that we are in the position of just
7:25
amplifying our creativity and be happy.
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We need to find kind of a way to create a system that will enable
7:31
us to thrive financially, mentally and creative
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creatively, and we are not there yet at all.
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You're not even thinking about those.
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Topics And now you know me, and you also know that my perception
7:42
is quite like, I don't necessarily think that everyone,
7:45
like every creative, is gonna be losing its job.
7:48
On the contrary, I do think that creativity hasn't been more
7:50
important than ever. I would want to pick your brain
7:54
because you just phrased it quite absolutely that you know
7:58
they are laid off. But I do think that there are
8:01
some reasons behind and that is not only through like due to AI.
8:05
On the one hand side, I do think it's like, sorry to say, but
8:08
shitty processes that have been implemented and then have been
8:11
held up for quite some time. And on the other side, I also
8:16
think that AI in itself is not necessarily or in essence
8:22
appreciated in the in, in a sense that it provides towards
8:27
the quality or the broadening up the opportunities for thinking
8:31
creatively. And would love to hear your
8:34
thought on that statement because?
8:35
You just you just pointed out so many different things and I
8:39
think that the secrets are here really in the nuances of what we
8:43
are talking about. But you mentioned for, you know,
8:45
laying of people, that's of course very complex and not it's
8:48
also basically because of the system that have been created
8:52
over the generation that doesn't necessarily or haven't
8:55
necessarily served us at all. You know, on the larger scale,
8:58
we can also put it this way, you know, therefore, with AI tools
9:02
and the full, full automation of the processes and system, we
9:05
will have the opportunity to free our our time and to get
9:08
more engaged with creativity. On the other hand, when we think
9:11
about creativity and arts, for example, you cannot tell me that
9:15
creativity is the most important and the most appreciated tool
9:19
and skill in the world because it's not.
9:21
People who have been challenging the status quo have been
9:24
creatives and outliers and rebels.
9:27
They haven't been historically very much appreciated.
9:31
And I always think about, you know, the examples of Van Gogh,
9:34
you know, I do not need your money when I'm dead.
9:36
I need your money when I'm an artist leaving and trying to
9:40
thrive and not when when I'm not here any longer.
9:43
So I feel like we need to change the narrative around creativity.
9:48
Concept doesn't have a survival skill because that's what I know
9:52
about creativity is our first and primal historically the most
9:55
important survival skill. But we cannot just engage with a
9:59
a tools and say right now, OK, and they it was grand Faidan.
10:02
They can and they will for sure. And if we teach people and use
10:07
AI tools ourselves in the smart way, AI tools are just the best
10:11
business partner partners for me ever.
10:13
Absolutely. But there are many people who
10:15
don't know yet how to use AI tools.
10:17
Therefore, it's, you know, that would we need to optimize or
10:21
teaching people how to use their own creativity first and then
10:24
they can use AI tools in a very conscious and definitely better
10:27
way than they have been doing that so far.
10:30
An instant question that I had What do you know about
10:33
creativity that most of us don't know?
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I know that when we combine the cognitive creative skills and
10:40
the manual creative skills, and when we find the Enlightenment
10:43
within ourselves combining both of them, then the magic happens.
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I am 100% convinced of that. Unfortunately, most of us are
10:51
living here in our brains. Not many of us are using
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creative manual skills and tools.
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And I would urge everyone to do so.
10:59
I would urge everyone to buy a notebook and a pen and start
11:02
writing. And because I feel like that's
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that's where the beautiful connectivity, the the beautiful
11:07
human creativity really contrives.
11:09
And then on a larger perspective, and also from your
11:12
experience, work and engagement in the creative community, you
11:17
distinguish between the individual, like the community
11:21
and the societal aspects of creative transformation.
11:24
And if you look into the tech aspects of it, what are pressure
11:28
points that AI puts on these layers or what are empowerment
11:34
momentums that can be used in order to engage with it largely?
11:39
So for me, first of all, you're to tell me, right, we actually
11:42
really should distinguish between individual committee and
11:45
cycle levels when it comes to the influence of AI when it
11:48
comes to and I'm speaking from my experience right now.
11:51
So for me, the I tools are great enablers and amplifiers of my
11:56
work, no question for many people in my community as well,
12:00
because they know how to use the tools.
12:01
Many people don't know. So here's again the question
12:04
about the educating people and teaching them how to use those
12:07
properly. Nevertheless, on the more
12:10
community level and creative industry level done, there is
12:13
this movement of we can now all become creative people and
12:17
become artists and we can sell our art pieces, which is great.
12:22
You know, that's my story as well.
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I started creating art pieces and I started selling them.
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But imagine that everyone, we can become an artist
12:30
automatically and we are by basically automating the
12:34
creative aspects and processes to the AI tools again.
12:37
And I feel like that's where I see the problem because
12:39
creativity is again something more than just creating a
12:42
beautiful picture or enabling an AI tool to create a beautiful
12:46
picture is the whole process. Me as an artist I like creator
12:50
needs to go through to really transform myself from inside out
12:54
but also to bring the best foods of my inner words to the world
12:58
in general. And if we now look into the way
13:01
that also ethics in the context of like, you know, how creatives
13:06
use tools and so on plays a role, you are also like one of
13:11
the voices who foreign that if our institutions are non
13:16
inclusive, our AI systems will be non inclusive as well.
13:20
I would be curious to learn from you what true inclusivity and AI
13:24
looks like. And also in the context of
13:27
creativity, how can we make it more of an invitation for a
13:32
diversity in order for not replicating existing structural
13:37
challenges? That's an.
13:38
Amazing question and again, you just ask me about a broader
13:42
societal issue, but we can of course kind of point it out and
13:46
boil it down to to the AI tools themselves and the ethics.
13:51
What I feel is needed here is a different type of design of any
13:55
technology in general, not just AI tools and the design, maybe
13:58
the foundations of this design should be the radical
14:01
inclusivity. How that's how I call it.
14:03
Basically, we include every voice as much as we can, of
14:06
course, in the very utopian and magic word, of course, every,
14:10
every voice, every story is included.
14:12
But let's see, let's say we don't live in that world yet,
14:15
but we live in the world where we actually have access to
14:17
knowledge and information and possible different variety of
14:21
voices. We just don't use them or we
14:22
don't acknowledge them as something visible and needed.
14:25
And that's kind of where I see the challenge.
14:28
And one of the, I believe one of the best examples of that is
14:32
what I experienced this year when I went to the AI for Good
14:35
summit in Geneva here in Switzerland.
14:38
It was a fantastic discussion about exactly this AI and the
14:41
inclusivity. And one gentleman I, I spoke to
14:45
told me, look, we are designing this amazing tool and we are
14:48
going to include the just the indigenous voices.
14:51
And you know, on one hand, I'm thinking that's great.
14:54
You know, we're going to have finally a tool where where the
14:57
system is based on the data and the information that we don't
15:00
have usually access to. On the other hand, why do we
15:04
again create another tool just to amplify one side of the
15:07
story? We could also create one
15:09
coherent tour when we have all of the stories and therefore we
15:12
have better foundation for better and more diverse output
15:16
in general. So I would advise and I would
15:18
definitely raise more awareness about the radical inclusivity
15:22
when it comes to creating any tool, not just AI tools in.
15:25
General, but isn't that hard for organizations to do?
15:28
I mean, you know, radical inclusivity is something that is
15:32
the most complex thing that I could see teams, people,
15:36
organizations to live by and to be very clear on what that
15:40
actually means for them because it's so individual on the
15:43
context. It's so individual on the stance
15:46
that you take or how would like, if I would say, OK, I want to, I
15:51
want to live radical inclusivity.
15:53
What what would I have to do and strive by in order for it to
15:59
become reality. Now what?
16:00
You're. Mentioning is so important
16:01
because you are mentioning how the current system has been
16:05
designed. Radical inclusivity hasn't been
16:07
part of that and though therefore we are actually facing
16:10
so many challenges in the world this day.
16:12
But we know also that when we include different voices and
16:17
diverse voices and perspectives, then the outputs is better,
16:20
therefore the solutions are better, therefore the results
16:24
are better, therefore the problem solving the whole
16:26
process is completely different and the whole kind of output,
16:30
long term output is completely different.
16:32
What we are talking about here is rather again, the design of
16:36
the systems and technologies where things like ethics and
16:39
inclusivity are not the primary priority of any institution.
16:43
They're rather nice to have maybe in the future output or
16:46
maybe in the future when someone complaints and the new law is in
16:49
place, then we might consider putting that or you know,
16:53
creating like a say a department with one person where we were
16:56
just talk about inclusivity. But that's ABS that it just
16:59
doesn't work really very well for anyone long term.
17:02
And that's the main challenge that we face, that we kind of
17:05
consider ethics as long term ethics and inclusivity in
17:09
general as long term possible priorities instead of putting
17:13
them on the agenda from the very first stage.
17:16
I know it's difficult, and I know that's not necessarily
17:18
something that many organizations will do, but they
17:21
also know that if you want, our aim is to improve the society
17:26
and to ensure the longevity of the planet Earth.
17:29
Well, we should have started that already, you know, decades
17:31
ago. And where does responsibility
17:33
lie in that regard? Because coming back to the
17:36
individual, the team and then the organizational societal
17:39
level that you speak about, what is my role in that agency?
17:43
What is the organization context that I'm in?
17:47
What is the societal 1 and who's responsible and designing for
17:51
inclusive? I feel like on one hand,
17:53
everyone is responsible and I wish and I hope for the future
17:56
that really all of our voices would be heard.
17:58
So first of all, that we would believe that we have the right
18:01
to voice our concerns, which is not the case in most of the
18:05
institutions I have spoke to at all.
18:07
But second of all, with this kind of self agency and self
18:11
leadership that we developed because the let's say naively,
18:15
but also optimistically, let's say the, the community, the
18:18
departments, the company itself allows us to be ourselves and to
18:22
bring those things forward. Then of course, when we have the
18:25
self agency and self leadership, of course our goal would be to
18:28
design. We just see kind of the long
18:30
term results of our work, not just the shortened thinking of
18:33
the possible financial gains. And that should be, that's more
18:38
like from the bottom, from the both bottom up, but also top
18:41
down perspective. You know, it should come from
18:44
every individual and we should design the the organizations in
18:47
a way that they would allow us to make this happen.
18:50
But again, it's a very utopian ways of thinking.
18:52
It doesn't exist that much at all these days.
18:55
But I mean, you can always, you know, put it out there and see
18:58
of how you what, how to design the way to get there.
19:01
But if we talk design and if we talk current technologies and if
19:06
we talk about how organizations are structured, we look a lot
19:11
into the way of how they are influenced by AI, in particular
19:16
tech infrastructure in specifics.
19:19
And then even more specifically AI agents.
19:22
And now AI agents are, you know, the, I always call them, they
19:26
are parts of optimization of particular process steps.
19:30
And you've advised a lot of companies on how to build it up,
19:33
also how to design it also potentially how to design it for
19:37
inclusivity. And what is the biggest tension,
19:40
according to your experience of what you've observed between
19:43
efficiency is ethics and and the way that teams collaborate?
19:48
It's a great question. So I think the main tension of
19:52
that I have observed is that regardless of already existing
19:56
policies and law related to a security for example, and you
20:00
know the EUAA Act and so on and so forth, not many companies are
20:04
yet there to even consider that as kind of the baseline for
20:08
their work. So that's a huge tension for me
20:10
that not just that's kind of. You know, it's more like, oh,
20:14
let's see what happens. It's not yet that important.
20:17
Therefore we are continue our work and let's just ignore
20:20
everything else. That's a huge tension
20:22
nevertheless. And thankfully there are a few
20:24
organizations also in the German speaking countries, a few
20:27
companies who as a foundation and design of their business
20:31
consider ethics and security kind of the most important part
20:35
of their businesses. And I think that the huge, for
20:38
me personally, there's a huge hope that this type of
20:40
institutions were really emotional in the future here
20:43
because people will realize, hey, there is much more in place
20:46
here than our short term gains. Let us recreate something
20:50
sustainable for the society. Sustainable is a broad word.
20:54
It's also something that a lot of companies struggle with
20:57
because it requires continuous iterations in cooperation of
21:02
oversight and so on. But if we now look into the way
21:06
of how they incorporate AI powered creative tools and
21:11
potentially also the way of how they automate the way that they
21:15
work, what surprised you the most when you were working with
21:18
your clients? Exactly the topics that I
21:21
actually just mentioned. Also right now under tensions
21:24
maybe lack of. I wouldn't say lack of knowledge
21:27
but rather ignorance and short term thinking.
21:30
That surprised me a lot. I think fully not everyone I
21:32
work with thinks this way and and acts this way, but the
21:36
majority they do unfortunately because they don't see, I feel
21:40
like what is needed here or they don't see the bigger picture or
21:44
they don't have the more holistic you know overview of
21:47
what happens if you know, we don't think about creating a
21:51
business for the next 100 years. We are thinking about how can we
21:55
survive this quarter and that's a short.
21:58
I feel like we need to implement both the long term and short
22:01
term thinking in designing any business, not just a
22:04
technological business. And you mentioned also again
22:07
sustainability. You know, from my perspective,
22:08
none of the businesses I have ever met in the technology are
22:11
sustainable businesses. It's a myth.
22:13
It's you know, you know, greenwashing in a way
22:17
technological greenwashing. It just doesn't exist because
22:20
unless you know, you have some examples, but by default and how
22:24
the system right now works. So if you consider that we are
22:27
powered by by oil, it doesn't sustain 1.
22:30
So thank you very much. You know your whole debate about
22:32
sustainability of your business is just over.
22:35
There was a lot of energy in the in the past couple of minutes.
22:39
Why is that so where does that come from?
22:41
What is the energetic part for you that you're so passionate
22:44
about that? I feel like, you know, in a way
22:47
where they observe, and I have spent many years working also in
22:50
marketing and having my business in marketing communication, you
22:53
know, bridging the creativity technology in for many years.
22:57
And I observed also with the businesses that claim to be
23:00
green and sustainable and whatever you name it, you know,
23:03
beautiful hashtags for social media, They're not.
23:05
And the problem that we have actually right now in the
23:07
society at large is that we are kidding ourselves.
23:11
We believe that if something is marked as vegan or marked as
23:15
whatever sustainable that it must be 100%.
23:18
And very often it's just not. And we need to kind of look at
23:21
all of those things with this length of how can we improve
23:25
what we know that is already wrong instead of how can we hide
23:28
what we know is wrong. And we are more on the side of
23:31
how can we hide those things So no one discovers that the video
23:34
we are not that green or that we are not that good.
23:37
And I think that's a huge problem.
23:38
But from my perspective, everything comes back to us as
23:42
individuals and how we actually who we are as human beings, how
23:46
we in the world, what level of responsibility do we want to
23:50
take for things that we are doing and Co creating.
23:53
That's everything. And unfortunately it's not
23:55
always the case that people are vital angels and just want to
23:58
they want to say the word. Very often there are kind of
24:01
different things in play, but I don't judge that.
24:04
For me, it's more like, let us just have this deep and
24:07
important discussions about what is happening before because
24:11
actually with AI, we have this opportunity in this
24:14
responsibility to ensure that it will serve the next generations
24:18
or it will again destroy things that we are having in the world.
24:21
So it's how to avoid things that are going to happen because
24:24
they're going to happen anyway. But how can we re individually
24:28
and then with the decisions that we are making, ensure that long
24:32
term our impact is is is just positive for everyone involved?
24:36
Why does that feel so existential with AI in
24:40
particular? I mean, we've been at crossroads
24:42
for, for me at least, like every now and then, or if you want to
24:46
say like every 7 to 15 years, why now?
24:49
Why is it now so crucial and clear and so uncertain for you?
24:56
Especially this topic, especially the ethics of
24:58
technology is because I observe that again, we are kidding
25:02
ourselves and we need to just face the reality of what is
25:05
happening. But also, there are already
25:07
specialist experts in this field.
25:09
For example, Roman Yampolsky, who is a ethicist who speaks
25:14
about 97% of the global population is going to lose, you
25:18
know, their job in the next years.
25:20
So what do you do with 97 or 99? I don't remember the right
25:23
number, but what do you do with the whole global society without
25:28
the jobs knowing that people are not prepared.
25:30
Many people just strive within the corporations.
25:32
People are just not prepared for this transformation in general.
25:36
Living in the year of 2025, also realizing that we have a lot of
25:41
heritage, looking forward into the future for some time and
25:45
assuming that 99% of people won't be having a job is, I
25:49
think, in my opinion, the statement.
25:52
And also seeing of how the current economy works and of how
25:57
people are not knowledgeable of the way that they AI use is
26:02
something that I think is to be discussed and also to be seen.
26:07
And I think there are some routes that you can also
26:10
calculate and also how you can look into.
26:13
But I would love to hear your thoughts on why you particularly
26:18
are so convinced that this is kind of happening.
26:21
I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, just to make it clear.
26:23
I feel like what I like about this big statements and I think
26:26
that Roman Yampolsky really has his expertise to share this this
26:31
knowledge with us, right? So I trust his Dartmouth.
26:35
But what I like about this is that it really make it makes us
26:39
think, you know, it makes us think about the future in a way
26:43
that there's that's absolutely crazy exponential growth.
26:46
There will be things that will have to change within the
26:48
society to adapt as soon as we can.
26:51
For me personally, Oh my goodness, I'm so excited.
26:54
Please automate absolutely everything.
26:56
I want to go to the mountains and hike and write books and
26:59
that's everything. You know, I have no doubt that
27:01
they will find dozens of ways to engage my time, but to engage
27:07
myself with different things, no question at all.
27:09
I'm just afraid that or you know, I'm just thinking that
27:12
many people don't have this luxury that they would feel like
27:15
OK right now. You know, people just very often
27:17
don't know what they want to do. Therefore, the structures that
27:21
we are within these days, especially at different
27:23
organizations and corporations, they make their lives better and
27:26
easier and safer in a way. That's not my path, but I do
27:29
know many people will feel really extremely happy with the
27:33
current situation, you know, on the job market, for example.
27:36
And I guess that is the best moment to say to be continued
27:40
and to like look into the way of how it actually plays out.
27:44
And since we now get into, you know, the end of our
27:48
conversation, then also look into some so-called in between
27:51
moments with you. These are moments that I have
27:53
with my guests on short, intuitive reflections.
27:57
And like really what I would love for you to do is just come
28:01
up with one word, 1 sentence that comes to your mind when I
28:04
ask you starting with creativity and 2030 feels for you.
28:08
Like what? Freedom and what?
28:11
Should I? I never do.
28:12
Replace human love. What are ways to to redesign
28:17
systems that we need to do or act upon first?
28:21
We need to come back to our humanity.
28:23
And what does? What causes you the most?
28:26
Worries, ignorance and stupidity.
28:28
And what gives you hope? Deep conversations and smart
28:31
people I am surrounded by. I think that's a perfect ending
28:35
to a quite insightful and, well, vast conversation.
28:39
We covered a lot of topics, and it's great to have some sort of,
28:43
you know, cliffhanger for an upcoming conversation in, let's
28:47
say, one to five years and see where we've been headed.
28:49
The latest Amber for now. Thank you so much for sharing
28:52
all your insights and yeah, discussing the intersection of
28:55
tech and trust. With us.
28:56
Thank you. Great to be here.