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SMNTY Classics: Involuntary Celibacy · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
0:06
Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff. I never told you a protection
0:08
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio, and today we are bringing back a classic
0:22
Speaker 2: that gives both of us a little anxiety. Is our
0:27
Speaker 2: original episode on involuntary celibacy.
0:30
Speaker 1: You're gonna double up? Oh no, I am.
0:34
Speaker 2: I just feel in light of what we've been discussing,
0:38
Speaker 2: we should bring it back. It's a shorter one because
0:40
Speaker 2: we were legitimately nervous about what would happen when we
0:46
Speaker 2: talked about it. But just to give you more context
0:49
Speaker 2: on some recent episodes, it's not a fun one, but
0:54
Speaker 2: it is an important one. Yes, it is, so please
1:00
Speaker 2: I hesitate to say enjoy, but please enjoy. Well, yes,
1:06
Speaker 2: this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie. Hey this is Samantha,
1:14
Speaker 2: and welcome to Steffan never told you your production of Iheartradios.
1:17
Speaker 2: How stuff works. Okay, So this episode is about in cells. Correct,
1:33
Speaker 2: It's been a long time coming, and I will admit
1:36
Speaker 2: I'm a little nervous to talk about it. Right and
1:41
Speaker 2: before we get into it, trigger warning for violence, sexual assault,
1:45
Speaker 2: and rape.
1:47
Speaker 1: So let's just both take a collective breath. Yes, because
1:52
Speaker 1: it is a deep and dark subject.
1:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's something that we've been we have in
1:59
Speaker 2: me to talk about it for a while, right, So
2:02
Speaker 2: let's start with the basics.
2:04
Speaker 1: What is it?
2:05
Speaker 2: What is insult in Cells is a largely online community
2:09
Speaker 2: of over ten thousand, mostly young men and boys who
2:13
Speaker 2: spew hatred towards women, blaming them for the absence of
2:17
Speaker 2: sex in their lives. And yeah, mostly that's what goes on,
2:22
Speaker 2: but the other things, other things. Eighty percent of their
2:25
Speaker 2: members live in the US and in Europe, and on
2:28
Speaker 2: average about fifty five percent are whites, and they have
2:31
Speaker 2: called for things like acid attacks and mass rapes, and
2:36
Speaker 2: their ideology, which is called the black pill, essentially means
2:41
Speaker 2: that they have rejected women's sexual liberation and realized that
2:45
Speaker 2: in their minds women are shallow and cruel.
2:48
Speaker 1: Oh, because they they're being rejected, they're being shallow and cruel.
2:52
Speaker 2: Right, Okay. It's derived from the red pill, which is
2:54
Speaker 2: a name taken from the scene in The Matrix or
2:56
Speaker 2: Morpheus offers Neo a blue pill to essentially Stacie stay,
3:01
Speaker 2: what does it? Ignorance is bliss or the red pill
3:04
Speaker 2: to wake up to reality? Right, meaning in this case, reality,
3:08
Speaker 2: the realization that women want high status dudes. Black Pill
3:12
Speaker 2: followers think their success in the sexual dating relationship realm
3:16
Speaker 2: hinges entirely on their looks. What this leads to is
3:21
Speaker 2: a kind of sexual class system. So the most attractive
3:24
Speaker 2: men are called chads, and they make up about twenty
3:26
Speaker 2: percent of society of.
3:29
Speaker 1: The men, yes, of the population of men, right, yes.
3:31
Speaker 2: And eighty percent of women want a Chad according to
3:35
Speaker 2: this ideology, and a Chad only so that nobody else
3:39
Speaker 2: they'll only accept a Chad. And they have racialized names
3:43
Speaker 2: for Chad too, so it is Tyrone for a black man,
3:46
Speaker 2: Chang for an East Asian man, Shaddham for an Arab man,
3:50
Speaker 2: and Chad Preach for an Indian man. And the most
3:52
Speaker 2: attractive women, Stacy's will only have sex with chads. So
3:58
Speaker 2: are Stacy's eighty percent of the women? No, okay, because
4:01
Speaker 2: that seems really odd, Like.
4:03
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, they really have this very high standard
4:06
Speaker 1: or low standard. What's beautiful? But eighty percent of women.
4:10
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I think all the women are beautiful,
4:12
Speaker 1: but I'm not angry at them.
4:14
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and well, women in the lowest twenty percent
4:18
Speaker 2: range when it comes to attractiveness in this whole ideology
4:21
Speaker 2: will have sex with men who are more towards the
4:24
Speaker 2: middle when it comes to their attractiveness, and these men
4:27
Speaker 2: are called beta's, cucks or normies, and below these men
4:31
Speaker 2: at the bottom are en cells. Okay, and the slang
4:35
Speaker 2: term femoids or slang for that slang foids is used
4:40
Speaker 2: for women. Also, just the side note, makeup is seen
4:43
Speaker 2: as kind of a fraud. And if you wear like
4:45
Speaker 2: short shorts and don't like being groped, then you deserve death. Yeah,
4:50
Speaker 2: on an exaggeration.
4:51
Speaker 1: So this is the same guys I would think are
4:54
Speaker 1: the pickup artist. Yes, that whole idea of you deserve
4:58
Speaker 1: these and if they don't want you, then they are
5:00
Speaker 1: bad people who are bitches.
5:03
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Well it's like a grand scheme of like
5:06
Speaker 2: manipulating women right basically into not rejecting you.
5:11
Speaker 1: So insults are kind of like low self esteem guys.
5:14
Speaker 1: And I aboud to get cut. I'm beoutter to get cut.
5:18
Speaker 2: It reminds me I used to for some reason. I
5:22
Speaker 2: know I've told this story on the show before, but
5:24
Speaker 2: for a while, when I would turn people down, turn
5:26
Speaker 2: men down at like bars and clubs, they would always
5:29
Speaker 2: say if I was brad pit. You wouldn't turn me down,
5:32
Speaker 2: And I thought it was weird that Brad Pitt was
5:34
Speaker 2: the name. Really always Brad Pitt, Chad.
5:38
Speaker 1: I guess I'm obviously bad to Chad.
5:42
Speaker 2: Yeah.
5:42
Speaker 1: Anytime I ever rejected a man, which was not often,
5:46
Speaker 1: I didn't get I don't get hit on typically that often,
5:47
Speaker 1: but it's usually like you can't make friends, you can't
5:50
Speaker 1: just be nice, but you know, like the whole you know,
5:53
Speaker 1: I'm trying. Oh now I'm mad at you, which would
5:55
Speaker 1: be along those lines, I would think.
5:56
Speaker 2: Yeah. And if it wasn't clear from the types of Chads,
6:01
Speaker 2: the various racialized types of CAD names, there is a
6:04
Speaker 2: lot of racism yeah, and anti Semitism surprise going on
6:08
Speaker 2: in these forms as well. Asian women are frequently called
6:12
Speaker 2: noodle whores. Yeah. Some label feminism as a Jewish plot
6:17
Speaker 2: designed to dismantle the Western world. So powerful feminism. South
6:23
Speaker 2: Asian in cells, but it's not working. South Asian in
6:32
Speaker 2: cells call themselves Curry cells.
6:34
Speaker 1: They call themselves Curry cells. Interesting.
6:37
Speaker 2: Yeah. Research shows that over fifty percent of all users
6:41
Speaker 2: have used overtly misogynistic language in their post One of
6:45
Speaker 2: the most frequent posters believes feminism is a plot to
6:49
Speaker 2: only date top tier men.
6:51
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean that, I mean yeah, no, okay.
7:00
Speaker 2: Another top poster was behind a thread called why is
7:03
Speaker 2: every single woman a totaling Bitch? That ended with a
7:07
Speaker 2: call for all single women over nineteen to be ground
7:09
Speaker 2: up in an industrial wood chipper.
7:12
Speaker 1: Someone's been watching Fogo a little too much.
7:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, you think that's what it is.
7:16
Speaker 1: You know, that's the one reference I get.
7:18
Speaker 2: Okay, okay. And for most of us who have heard
7:21
Speaker 2: of en cells, it's probably been through some of these
7:24
Speaker 2: violent acts that have happened in the past couple of years.
7:27
Speaker 2: And I'm going to try to avoid seeing any of
7:30
Speaker 2: these people's names, but here you go. In Santa Barbara
7:33
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, a man who identified as an in
7:36
Speaker 2: cell killed nine and injured fourteen, and prior to his
7:40
Speaker 2: act of violence, he recorded videos blaming women who didn't
7:43
Speaker 2: want to date him. He also wrote a one hundred
7:46
Speaker 2: and forty one page manifesto and he wanted to start
7:50
Speaker 2: a quote war on women for depriving him of sex,
7:54
Speaker 2: and this inspired the hashtag yess all women right, and
7:57
Speaker 2: it also inspired another killer in Florida who similarly released
8:01
Speaker 2: videos detailing his hatred of women before killing two women
8:04
Speaker 2: at a yoga facility, and some in the in cell
8:06
Speaker 2: community labeled him Saint Yoga Cell. And it inspired another
8:11
Speaker 2: man to kill nine people in twenty fifteen, leaving a
8:14
Speaker 2: manifesto blaming women for his virginity and praising the twenty
8:17
Speaker 2: fourteen killer and this twenty fourteen killers. He's seen as
8:20
Speaker 2: a saint in that world for not for everybody, but
8:25
Speaker 2: for a lot of people. And they use his name
8:27
Speaker 2: for saying like you should go and do what he did.
8:31
Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen, a self described in cell man in
8:34
Speaker 2: Canada drove a van onto a sidewalk and killed ten
8:37
Speaker 2: people and injured fourteen. And yeah, the community largely praised
8:41
Speaker 2: him and called for more acts of murder. Someone wrote
8:45
Speaker 2: he would have a celebratory beer every time. It turned
8:48
Speaker 2: out a victim was a woman aged eighteen to thirty five.
8:51
Speaker 1: That is very specific.
8:54
Speaker 2: And if we set back a bit to nineteen eighty nine,
8:57
Speaker 2: a man by the name of Mark Leppine went on
9:00
Speaker 2: to inspire the user name of a modern day in
9:02
Speaker 2: cell but with Satan Front. He went into a university
9:05
Speaker 2: classroom in Montreal, demanded the men leave the room and
9:08
Speaker 2: killed the nine women who were left, and then went
9:12
Speaker 2: on to kill five more women. In the letter found
9:14
Speaker 2: after he killed himself, he wrote he was fighting feminism
9:18
Speaker 2: and this is the worst mass shooting in Canada's history.
9:22
Speaker 1: This would be one of the examples of why feminism
9:23
Speaker 1: is important.
9:24
Speaker 2: Yes, it would be, and it is. People who study
9:28
Speaker 2: in cels say that while these are terrible acts, we
9:31
Speaker 2: shouldn't forget about the more common everyday violence that in
9:34
Speaker 2: cell community normalizes and commits as well, like sexual harassment,
9:38
Speaker 2: yelling at women, and even targeting ovarian and cervical cancer
9:41
Speaker 2: research funds. Then there's other things users post about, like
9:45
Speaker 2: injecting seamen into chocolate bars and giving them to women.
9:49
Speaker 2: Somebody said he did that because he thought he had
9:51
Speaker 2: a chance with this woman, but it turned out she
9:53
Speaker 2: had a boyfriend because she's a total monster. Or sexually
9:57
Speaker 2: assaulting women in public, especially on public trans it.
10:00
Speaker 1: Right, and then we you and I talked about in
10:02
Speaker 1: the previous episode about semocide and a lot of like
10:04
Speaker 1: some of the deaths that happen are when men get
10:06
Speaker 1: rejected and feel like they have the right to harm
10:09
Speaker 1: or kill that person and or violate that person some
10:12
Speaker 1: way or some form and this will be exactly in
10:14
Speaker 1: those lines.
10:17
Speaker 2: And some people who who study this say that a
10:20
Speaker 2: lot of this these posters just talk because the Internet
10:23
Speaker 2: is a place where you can kind of be your
10:26
Speaker 2: worst self. But even so, it is a community that
10:29
Speaker 2: celebrates violence against women, like even if it is just talk,
10:33
Speaker 2: it's talk, right, And studies have shown and members anecdotally
10:38
Speaker 2: admit that it shapes their worldview and makes them angrier
10:42
Speaker 2: and more prone to and accepting of violence or even harassment.
10:45
Speaker 2: And we've seen that it's kind of similar to isis
10:48
Speaker 2: like you get radical.
10:49
Speaker 1: The mom mentality in itself, that's exactly what's occurring. Is
10:53
Speaker 1: they kind of go into their own little world and
10:55
Speaker 1: then encourage each other's stupidity.
10:58
Speaker 2: And anger and hate.
10:59
Speaker 1: Right.
11:00
Speaker 2: But there is a subset of about one hundred men
11:03
Speaker 2: that actively promote other members to perpetrate sexual violence against women,
11:07
Speaker 2: and a lot of them are associated with a site
11:09
Speaker 2: run by a man who tried to kill President George W.
11:11
Speaker 2: Bush in two thousand and eight, claims he raped his
11:14
Speaker 2: ex wife and ran for congress in twenty eighteen.
11:19
Speaker 1: Did he actually get his name on the ballot?
11:21
Speaker 2: I think so he dropped out, though I would hope.
11:24
Speaker 2: So he doesn't call himself an in cel, but he's
11:27
Speaker 2: a big name in the in cell community, and he
11:31
Speaker 2: and his followers pushed the rape pill. And here's the
11:34
Speaker 2: definition for that, the understanding that for civilization to survive,
11:38
Speaker 2: femoins need to be treated as subhuman objects whose purpose
11:42
Speaker 2: is to obey and bear the children of supreme gentlemen, such.
11:45
Speaker 1: As ourselves supreme gentlemen. Yeah.
11:48
Speaker 2: One of their sites, with five hundred members, is called
11:51
Speaker 2: Raping Girls is Fun. They have tips for how to
11:54
Speaker 2: commit the most effective rapes. And as a whole, these
11:57
Speaker 2: sites and the people that peruse them believe that women
12:00
Speaker 2: should not have and should never have had, any rights.
12:05
Speaker 2: So that that's kind of what's going on there when
12:12
Speaker 2: we have some more like present day Steff. But we
12:14
Speaker 2: also have some history about how this in cells got started.
12:19
Speaker 2: But first we're going to pause for a quick break
12:21
Speaker 2: for word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor.
12:37
Speaker 2: So for the history is kind of surprising and interesting,
12:40
Speaker 2: and I bet a lot of you've heard of it
12:42
Speaker 2: because it is surprising and interesting. It goes back to
12:46
Speaker 2: an online community that was founded in the nineteen nineties,
12:50
Speaker 2: and it was a community of shy, lonely people looking
12:52
Speaker 2: for other shy, lonely people. Eventually, this loneliness helped gather
12:57
Speaker 2: an online community, and they came up with the phrase
13:00
Speaker 2: involuntary celibacy to describe their experience, which was later shortened
13:04
Speaker 2: to I think. It was later shortened in there's a
13:07
Speaker 2: V in there, but then it was shortened to in cell. Yes,
13:10
Speaker 2: and one of the first members, who now goes by
13:13
Speaker 2: the handle Reformed in Cel, described the community as a
13:17
Speaker 2: quote kind of social justice warrior esque place men who
13:22
Speaker 2: didn't know how to talk to women would ask questions
13:24
Speaker 2: and female members would answer them. And he's sort of
13:26
Speaker 2: a noted historian of the movement and how it evolved
13:29
Speaker 2: into what it is today, like he's tried to record
13:33
Speaker 2: what happened. What happened, And the founder was a queer
13:38
Speaker 2: progressive woman from Canada named Alana. Alana thought dating was
13:42
Speaker 2: confusing and scary and she wasn't even quite sure of
13:45
Speaker 2: her own sexuality, and as a college student, she felt
13:48
Speaker 2: she was bisexual and started a serious relationship with a woman,
13:52
Speaker 2: but she wanted to help others like her who struggled
13:54
Speaker 2: with relationships, who wanted to have one but for one
13:57
Speaker 2: reason or another couldn't and to that end, she started
14:00
Speaker 2: the Helana's Involuntary Celibacy Project website. It didn't take her
14:05
Speaker 2: too long to realize that she wasn't entirely sure to
14:07
Speaker 2: help the people populating the forums, and she was in
14:10
Speaker 2: a relationship and kind of you know, got busy, and
14:14
Speaker 2: in the early two thousands she left the community. Now.
14:16
Speaker 2: She later went on to start a new project called
14:19
Speaker 2: Love Not Anger to kind of try to retake, try
14:22
Speaker 2: to start.
14:22
Speaker 1: The thing wasn't as where it is today. Such a turnaround,
14:27
Speaker 1: I guess that happened as often. Well. Then this is
14:29
Speaker 1: when the community divided into two forms, the inceel Support
14:32
Speaker 1: and love Shy. In cell Support was inclusive and closer
14:36
Speaker 1: to what the founder intended. Moderators ban misogynistic posts, but Loveshy,
14:40
Speaker 1: on the other hand, did not really moderate the posts,
14:43
Speaker 1: and posters blamed women for the lack of sex, and
14:46
Speaker 1: one of the moderators latted mass killings and killers and
14:49
Speaker 1: encouraged violence. And it was almost all men. Since it
14:54
Speaker 1: was online, it wasn't isolated either. It crossed over with
14:57
Speaker 1: very angry dark Internet places like Fortune, a site with
15:01
Speaker 1: in cel like ideas section called r nine k, A
15:05
Speaker 1: lot of in cells became in cels through four ten.
15:08
Speaker 1: Then there's the menosphere, which refers to a collection of
15:10
Speaker 1: sites almost entirely powered by men, like Men's Right sites.
15:14
Speaker 1: This vinn diagram of sites blaming women fostered a larger community,
15:18
Speaker 1: and one that took the name in cel made it
15:20
Speaker 1: their own and also claimed to have coined it in
15:22
Speaker 1: the first place. After the killer in California was reported
15:26
Speaker 1: to be an in cell, the original community relinquished the
15:29
Speaker 1: term as toxic, but for the newer, angrier, violent community,
15:33
Speaker 1: the killer was a hero, so the forums posted photoshop
15:36
Speaker 1: pictures of his face as Christian images, and his initials
15:39
Speaker 1: were mostly positive and used to condone acts of violence,
15:43
Speaker 1: and others blame him for the negative reputations of in cells.
15:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, some in the community think that that this is
15:52
Speaker 2: what gave them. I mean, it did a negative reputation
15:55
Speaker 2: and they don't laud him like the others do and
15:59
Speaker 2: read it. Recently banned the in cell subreddit, but a
16:02
Speaker 2: new one opened in its place with sixteen nine hundred members,
16:07
Speaker 2: and it also spawned our in cel tears, which makes
16:09
Speaker 2: fun of the things posted by in cells. I have
16:11
Speaker 2: a friend who reads that religiously and even that upsets me,
16:14
Speaker 2: Like it's funny, but I'm like, still.
16:17
Speaker 1: How how do you even delve into that?
16:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we have a little bit more to talk about,
16:24
Speaker 2: but first we're gonna pause for one more quick bak
16:26
Speaker 2: forward from our sponsor and we're back. Thank you, sponsor.
16:43
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I mean in cells
16:48
Speaker 2: is obviously to the innth degree, it's taking something to
16:53
Speaker 2: the innst degree, but we can I mean, it does
16:55
Speaker 2: showcase like how in our society there is this idea
16:59
Speaker 2: of entitlements and female obligation.
17:03
Speaker 1: Just still hard to shake.
17:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And in this thought structure, women owe
17:08
Speaker 2: men sex and the world is systemically messed up when
17:11
Speaker 2: men who want it are not getting it. And you
17:14
Speaker 2: can see this everywhere that here's an example from a
17:17
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen New York Times piece written by a social
17:20
Speaker 2: conservative quote, our widespread isolation and unhappiness and sterility might
17:25
Speaker 2: be dealt with by reviving or adapting older ideas about
17:28
Speaker 2: the virtues of monogamy and chastity and permanence and the
17:31
Speaker 2: special respect ode to the celevant. And I know that
17:36
Speaker 2: there was even that discussion of like rationing sex like,
17:40
Speaker 2: how can we make sure everyone who haunts sex gets it?
17:44
Speaker 2: But at the same time, and cells look down on
17:46
Speaker 2: whrrors right, sex worker?
17:48
Speaker 1: Right, And I know there's this prejudice against lesbians and yeah,
17:51
Speaker 1: sexuals in general anyway, and that they are not doing well.
17:55
Speaker 1: First of all, it's sin, but it's also a slap
17:57
Speaker 1: in their face, right that they can get something without
18:00
Speaker 1: them but men.
18:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And think of how we encourage women to
18:05
Speaker 2: feel when they want someone and can't get them, that
18:08
Speaker 2: it's their fault, right, right, that they are undesirable, they
18:12
Speaker 2: are to blame. Compare that to this train of thinking
18:16
Speaker 2: like I'm just undesirable, but the woman, the other party,
18:20
Speaker 2: is to blame and the world is to blame.
18:22
Speaker 1: And you owe me this. Why wouldn't you give me this?
18:24
Speaker 1: Because this is your purpose in life, you know? And
18:27
Speaker 1: I kind of think about what the whole celibacy thing
18:29
Speaker 1: and the monogamy and chastity, all of these ideas, the
18:33
Speaker 1: whole sex strike that's happening right now. I know I
18:36
Speaker 1: talked about it earlier with the feminism episode, but Alyssa
18:40
Speaker 1: Milano's whole thing, and I'm thinking, while I know it's
18:43
Speaker 1: not completely related, but This is kind of what we're having,
18:47
Speaker 1: this conversation about how this takes the whole idea traditional
18:51
Speaker 1: idea that women owe men sex and so by being
18:54
Speaker 1: a strike is something as if it's their job or
18:56
Speaker 1: their obligation. So they're putting a strike on it. And
18:59
Speaker 1: I know that's one of the big controversies, like, wait,
19:02
Speaker 1: you're taking this negative tone on one sex is and
19:04
Speaker 1: who controls sex?
19:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, who's the gatekeeper?
19:06
Speaker 1: Right? And this is the whole conversation in that even
19:09
Speaker 1: though I'm sure in theory there's a lot of ways
19:12
Speaker 1: it could be helpful. And you and I talked about
19:14
Speaker 1: some of the times that it has been used. You
19:16
Speaker 1: were talking about in Chicago when it was used for
19:19
Speaker 1: gay activity or men who are involved in gain and
19:22
Speaker 1: the women the correct and then also way back when
19:26
Speaker 1: when it was thought of as their obligation, women's obligation
19:31
Speaker 1: to have sex and birth children and so therefore being
19:34
Speaker 1: on a strike kind of takes that away. But now
19:38
Speaker 1: it's kind of we're changing that idea, we're changing what
19:40
Speaker 1: that looks like, what sex is, and who controls it
19:43
Speaker 1: and who can ask for it, who can say no
19:45
Speaker 1: to that? And it is a really hot idea of
19:48
Speaker 1: what this is, and then this kind of it does
19:51
Speaker 1: kind of feel like it. Again, I don't really know
19:53
Speaker 1: too much about it. I'm more confused than anything else.
19:55
Speaker 1: It does seem like this feats into this whole idea
19:58
Speaker 1: that a woman's perp is to have sex with men,
20:03
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
20:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I know I read that quote a couple
20:09
Speaker 2: of episodes ago about how feeling like you're a soldier
20:13
Speaker 2: called into war to help men with their blue balls, right,
20:17
Speaker 2: And I yeah, I felt that way, and I've said like,
20:19
Speaker 2: I'm someone who doesn't really feel sexual traction, and I
20:24
Speaker 2: felt guilty about it because I was like, oh, this
20:27
Speaker 2: guy's so nice to me.
20:32
Speaker 1: I mean that. But again, you're right with all of this,
20:34
Speaker 1: and cells the idea that you are failing and or
20:39
Speaker 1: you are insulting a man by saying you don't want
20:42
Speaker 1: to be with him or anyone is unnatural.
20:45
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:46
Speaker 1: Right, that's the mentality of this, that you are supposed
20:50
Speaker 1: to not necessarily want it, but at least give it. Right,
20:53
Speaker 1: It's not about your pleasure, So I guess again, I'm
20:56
Speaker 1: kind of like, all right, this is so hand in
20:58
Speaker 1: hand with what are we actually saying about sex? And
21:02
Speaker 1: women once again, and who owes what? And who has
21:05
Speaker 1: control of what?
21:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in cells are largely viewed as a backlash
21:12
Speaker 2: to progressiveness and feminism. Throughout our histories, laws have classified
21:17
Speaker 2: women's bodies as the property of men. So the rape
21:20
Speaker 2: of a man's wife was seen as a crime against
21:23
Speaker 2: the man, right because the woman's body was not her own.
21:27
Speaker 2: And we were still still trying to get away from
21:32
Speaker 2: that train of thinking.
21:33
Speaker 1: Well, I think it just recently happened. I forgot what
21:36
Speaker 1: state it was that they just turned over the law
21:38
Speaker 1: that women couldn't be raped by her husband.
21:41
Speaker 2: Well, was nineteen ninety one was when the United States
21:44
Speaker 2: finally in every state, right it was outlawed. And that
21:47
Speaker 2: is very very recent. It's like a going back to
21:53
Speaker 2: the way things used to be and technology giving space
22:01
Speaker 2: for people to who feel this way to connect and
22:05
Speaker 2: to yeah, cheer each other on.
22:08
Speaker 1: Right apparently like yeah, in twenty fifteen, eight states still
22:11
Speaker 1: has semi laws that allow for I have to be raped.
22:16
Speaker 2: Wow, what a wonderful world we live in.
22:19
Speaker 1: Oh So Columbus, Ohio is the one that closed the
22:24
Speaker 1: loophole in May fourth, twenty nineteen for the marital rape law.
22:30
Speaker 2: Wow.
22:30
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's still yeah, a thing and
22:34
Speaker 1: the idea that we can't go past the whole women
22:38
Speaker 1: are properties. Sex is an obligation, Sex is a job.
22:42
Speaker 1: Sex is a part of your duties in marriage. I
22:45
Speaker 1: mean you still see that in shows and talking about procreation,
22:50
Speaker 1: and there's still some shame for a lot of people
22:55
Speaker 1: to not be able to birth their own child. You
22:58
Speaker 1: know in all of those laid down to you, you're
23:01
Speaker 1: worthos a woman.
23:03
Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. One of my coworkers the other day, because
23:08
Speaker 2: because we do this show like Anytime, which is kind
23:11
Speaker 2: of a fun sad thing, but Anytime like a bad
23:15
Speaker 2: something with feminism or women.
23:18
Speaker 1: After starting to get that now too, but I'm like,
23:20
Speaker 1: oh you and I'm like, yeah, that's bad.
23:24
Speaker 2: But one of our coworkers sent me a song. I
23:26
Speaker 2: had never heard of it, but it was a Dave
23:28
Speaker 2: Matthews song called Daughters. It's like be nice to your
23:33
Speaker 2: daughters because they have become mothers or something.
23:37
Speaker 1: I think that's an old, old song.
23:38
Speaker 2: That's old, Yeah, but he was. It was just funny
23:42
Speaker 2: because he was like, can we not view women as
23:44
Speaker 2: anything other than like a walking baby?
23:49
Speaker 1: That's what we're created for? And God, God, help the
23:52
Speaker 1: women who actually can have children. I mean, that's kind
23:55
Speaker 1: of the whole societal ideas that in the internal struggle
23:58
Speaker 1: that you felt somehow because you feel like that's what
24:01
Speaker 1: you're supposed to do and at the same time that's
24:03
Speaker 1: what you want to do, and that's fine, and that's
24:05
Speaker 1: heartbreaking in itself, but it is a whole big thing
24:09
Speaker 1: of like, am I a lesser person because I don't
24:12
Speaker 1: or I can't And of course you're not. Of course
24:14
Speaker 1: they're not. And it's just a heartbreaking situation that stuff
24:18
Speaker 1: like this which goes into a volatile state where death
24:21
Speaker 1: has to happen as a result of someone's insecurity. You know,
24:26
Speaker 1: that's just and the fact that we are hearing more
24:28
Speaker 1: and more of those the whole idea that a young
24:31
Speaker 1: child can be raped for the sins of someone else
24:34
Speaker 1: in the family, you know, I know that's happened a
24:36
Speaker 1: few times in the world, and it's just heartbreaking that
24:39
Speaker 1: that's even a thing. Or the student who was killed
24:43
Speaker 1: because she reported sexual assault over their professor. You know,
24:46
Speaker 1: it's just why is this the thing that they're so undervalued?
24:49
Speaker 1: Women are undervalued, and it's still a conversation that we
24:52
Speaker 1: have to constantly have because once again, as you said,
24:55
Speaker 1: but not not necessarily, the finality of death is not
24:59
Speaker 1: the only thing we have talk about here, but acid
25:02
Speaker 1: attacks or continue harassment, continues stalking, that you owe them
25:05
Speaker 1: something is absurd, and even having our listeners who talk
25:10
Speaker 1: about the fact that they get deal with this at
25:12
Speaker 1: their workplace, constantly being badgered, that's a part of the
25:16
Speaker 1: same thing, that you owe them something because you exist
25:19
Speaker 1: in their world or in their environment, or you're nice
25:22
Speaker 1: to them. And that's the other part is why we
25:25
Speaker 1: just we can't be nice sometimes yeah yeah, and then
25:28
Speaker 1: you're and then people get pissed off by that.
25:30
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we having this
25:38
Speaker 2: conversation about and cells is really important in it. It's
25:41
Speaker 2: so kind of frightening, but I do think that it
25:47
Speaker 2: says a lot about our views on women in general,
25:52
Speaker 2: that this can be allowed to exist.
25:55
Speaker 1: That it does exist, and even when you try to
25:57
Speaker 1: shut it down and he still keeps popping back up.
25:59
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. So that's that's the end of this episode.
26:05
Speaker 1: I mean, it's something that we have to look at
26:07
Speaker 1: once again. I think we decided to put this under
26:10
Speaker 1: like a feminism episode arc because this is why it
26:14
Speaker 1: is important once again, and when I try to talk
26:17
Speaker 1: to people who are so scared of that word, we'll
26:20
Speaker 1: talk about these are what we're really looking at is
26:22
Speaker 1: safety and equality. Safety is a big factor in trying
26:28
Speaker 1: to be being able to once again walk out in
26:30
Speaker 1: the street by yourself without being threatened, or being a
26:34
Speaker 1: female in a mainly like male predominant area and be
26:38
Speaker 1: treated the same. I mean, I told you the story
26:42
Speaker 1: a while ago about me going into a conference that
26:44
Speaker 1: we're mainly made up of males and feeling so insecure
26:47
Speaker 1: because the immediate looks and the immediate like judgments that
26:50
Speaker 1: were happening, and I was automatically focused on because I
26:55
Speaker 1: was a woman, and then at the sea of men
26:58
Speaker 1: and that's absurd.
27:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So it's been on our I think I
27:05
Speaker 2: started this outline a year ago and we finally finally
27:08
Speaker 2: did it, and we would love to hear from you listeners,
27:14
Speaker 2: and such a strange transition, but.
27:19
Speaker 1: We always want to hear from the listener.
27:21
Speaker 2: We do, we do, we do. You can email us
27:25
Speaker 2: at Stuff Media Mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. That
27:28
Speaker 2: is a new email, but if you send the older email,
27:31
Speaker 2: it'll it'll come our way. You can also find us
27:33
Speaker 2: on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You and on
27:35
Speaker 2: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our
27:39
Speaker 2: super producer Andrew Howard, Andrew, thanks to you for listening.
27:42
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28:01
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