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Trump 'completely wrong' to restrict support for Ukraine, Italian minister says · DEEP INSIGHT

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Is the United States wrong to limit military support to
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Ukraine just as Russia's attacks on Kyiv have been intensifying?
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: There is real concern right across Europe that that is
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: what Donald Trump is doing to try to force Ukraine
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: into some kind of peace deal. Here in Italy, the
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: government's been a staunch supporter of Kyiv ever since Russia's
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: full-scale invasion. And we just had a rare chance to
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: sit down with the defence minister to ask him about
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump's moves and also for Italy's views. How worried
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: are you by those reports that the United States appears
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: to be reducing its military assistance in very specific ways
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: to Ukraine right now?
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: It's a total mistake. A big mistake.
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: Because it's a fundamental support. It means denying a country all.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: The possibilities to defend itself. And you can't do that.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense. And it doesn't help peace.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Peace will happen when Putin is convinced that there is
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: a stall, that there is a balance, that he can't
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: move forward. But if he sees weakness from the Ukrainian front,
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: and if the United States takes away his resources, there
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: is weakness. Then he thinks he can win, and so
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: the war will continue. So you think Donald Trump's giving
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin a way of winning this war, a window?
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: How does Europe make that.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Argument to Donald Trump? Or do you think that Donald Trump.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Has his own agenda domestically, politically in America. He's not
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: listening to Europe.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: How do you explain to the United States that that
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: support is still needed and is critical?
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Can you make that argument? Who is Europe? Europe is
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: not a person. There are 27 different.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: Countries, plus the UK, plus other countries. The political weakness
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: of Europe, which is also a military weakness, is what
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: makes it difficult for Europe to speak. Who speaks for Europe?
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: The von der Leyen? How much does the von der
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: Leyen count compared to Macron, Merz, Meloni? That is one
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: of the problems. Who speaks for Europe? It's been more
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: than a year that we've been discussing identifying one person
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: who speaks for Europe, and we haven't been able to
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: find one.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: You talked about the war between Russia and Ukraine, Russia's
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and you said that you can't
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: be neutral in that war. You said that you can't
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: be neutral between good and evil. Are you saying that
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Putin's Russia is evil in that equation?
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: Well, I used the term good and bad. Do you
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: think that the physical threat from Russia goes beyond Ukraine?
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: Do you think that the physical threat from Russia goes
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: beyond Ukraine? And so, if tomorrow the war ends, what
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: would Putin do with a million and a half of
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: the military? He would have internal problems himself, stopping the
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: war tomorrow morning. And this gives me the idea, since
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: it is continuing to accelerate, that he would not want
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: to stop in Ukraine.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: In this there is.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: The concern of Europe, there is the concern especially of
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: the Eastern countries, which are the closest to Russia, and
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: it is the reason why, as Europe and as NATO,
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: we are preparing. There is a threat that Russia could
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: physically attack a NATO country.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: In the Russian mentality, there.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Is the idea of attacking to occupy. Do you think
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: NATO is prepared and capable of responding if there were
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: to be an attack? Some people suggested if there were
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: some kind of attack on Lithuania, let's say, to pick
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: one Baltic country, that perhaps NATO, especially under Donald Trump,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to respond, wouldn't feel the need to respond.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: NATO was born to be a defensive alliance.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: It was born to defend each of the countries, even
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: the smallest in the event of an attack. If it doesn't,
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: the alliance will collapse. If the alliance collapses, it's not
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: a problem for the United States, it's a problem for Europe.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Do you think Donald Trump understands the threat from Russia
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: the same way as you've explained it?
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump, in my opinion, now has only one enemy
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: in the world, China. Everything else is a disturbance for him.
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: Is he making a mistake? What do you think? What
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: do you think?
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: So the minister is clear that Europe is preparing for
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: the possibility of Russian aggression beyond Ukraine's borders. Now, there
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: have been already acts of sabotage and arson right across Europe.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Here in Italy, the minister said there's been nothing so overt,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: but he has said there's been plenty of covert hostile activity.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: And he thinks Europe is being far too passive about
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: that threat.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: And it will continue, and it will continue.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: I made a report over a year ago on the
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: need to establish a European Centre for the Hybrid War,
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: because disinformation is part of the hybrid war, cyber attacks, disinformation,
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: everything that is underlying, that cannot be attributed, but we
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: know it, the Russians know it, and it is a
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: continuous provocation.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Can you give me some examples of what you've seen
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: specifically in terms of hybrid activity by Russia here in Italy?
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: There are hundreds of cyber attacks every day on the
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: defence infrastructure, on the state infrastructure, but we saw it
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: in France the other day.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: But here in Italy?
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: Every day we fight, we stop cyber attacks, every day.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: Three days ago there was one on defence, but... So
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: they are daily, they are not even news anymore. In
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: my opinion there is no escalation, there is a continuation.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: The war and the cyber attacks are constant. They increase,
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: in my opinion, not cyber attacks, but the war of
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: disinformation increases as the elections approach. Russia is aiming at
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: some political figures, at some parties, at some stories, to
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: weaken the political climate against Russia and against the aggression
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: of Russia against Ukraine.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: And you're saying it's specifically related to the upcoming elections
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: here in Italy. Have you evidence already that Russia is
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: trying to interfere with Italian elections?
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: Evidence no, because the problem of the hybrid war is
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: that it's under trace. The problem is that it's not attributable.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: And the advantage is that, like cyber attacks, right? Il
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: giorno in cui fosse evidente lo diremmo, certo.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: What does Russia want to achieve? C' è.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: Una volontà, la volontà di rimettere insieme quella che era
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: la Russia prima dell'esplosione dell'Unione Sovietica, proprio perché la Russia
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: non è un grande paese e la Russia non accetta
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: di non essere un grande paese, di non essere al
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: pari degli Stati Uniti e al pari della Cina. Siccome
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: la sfida the world is fighting only between the United
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: States and China, Russia would like to be the third
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: country on the table. The problem is, we always say it,
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: on the one hand not to let Russia win, on
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: the other hand try to create diplomatic barriers to bring
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: that reasoning back within the diplomatic confrontation, because otherwise we
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: risk an endless escalation.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Here in Rome, talk of a hostile Russia can feel
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: really remote. It's not like the mood in Poland, for example.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Opinion polls here suggest that many Italians want to stop
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: sending military aid to Ukraine. They think that's just fueling
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: the war, and they're more concerned about rising costs here
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: at home. There is an election next year, too, and
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: a far-right party with a leader who's openly sympathetic to
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Russia is now looking increasingly popular. So I discussed all
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: those challenges with the defence minister.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: Sappiamo perfettamente che la nostra opinione pubblica, influenzata anche dall'esterno,
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: is mostly against the help of Ukraine. It is difficult
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: to explain that you have to help a nation to
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: resist and that helping it to resist does not mean
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: being against peace.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: We would like peace tomorrow morning.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: Zelenskyy, for more than two years, has proposed different ways
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: to achieve You're saying that the Italian public opinion is mistaken.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: But we have made 12 aid packages. By the end
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: of the year, we'll probably be able to do something else.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: How do you explain that position? How should we understand
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: why public opinion isn't with the government on this?
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: Because there is a very strong disinformation capacity on.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: The part of Russia.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: Now it seems that Ukraine has become the reason why
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: gas has a high price.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: No, it's not absolutely like that.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: Il fatto di non acquistare gas dalla Russia crei dei
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: problemi agli italiani. Quindi bisogna che l'Ucraina sia distrutta perché
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: così possiamo comprare il gas a basso costo dalla Russia.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: Certo che è difficile spiegare a un cittadino che ha
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: problemi quando va alla pompa di benzina che in questo
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: momento noi non possiamo fare la gallera a Russia. Ma
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: è l'unico modo con cui noi possiamo pensare di difendere
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: il futuro dei figli di quel cittadino che adesso si lamenta. Unfortunately,
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: the West is weak because we have suffered these attacks
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: of Russian information without reacting. We only defend ourselves, we
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: never react. You can't win a war if one does
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: it against you and you don't react against him.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: How confident are you that Italian support for Ukraine will continue,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: military support?
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: It will continue with this government, until this government is there,
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: and then we'll see. What majority will there be after
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: the next elections? I think they will continue because it
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: is a choice, as I said before, it is not
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: a political choice made to have electoral advantages, but a
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: choice made between.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Good and evil.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: How much of a threat to that position do you
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: think is General Vanacci here in Italy, who has a
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: very overtly pro-Russian position and is very loud on this
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: topic specifically of Ukraine ahead of the elections?
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Are you worried about.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: That his position is actually closer to the position of
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: many Italians?
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Why not? You don't think on Ukraine specifically? Can you
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: explain why?
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: You don't want to give him more prominence than you
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: would like?
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: No. C' è un proverbio latino. De minimis non curat per etoro.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: You're not worried that if he.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Devo occuparmi di cose serie.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: Devo occuparmi delle guerre in corso.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Devo occuparmi delle cose di difesa di questo paese.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: Non ho tempo per fare posizioni, per commentare posizioni che
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: hanno solo l'obiettivo del consenso. To go and look for
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: where there is consensus and take that consensus. This is
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: not the way I have always done politics all my life,
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: let alone as Minister.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Ukraine will never be.
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: Able to win the war. My goal is to make
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: Ukraine survive and to end the war. Because when someone
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: in Italy said that Ukraine will win the war, someone
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: thought that Ukraine would want to defeat Russia. Zelensky almost
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: entered Moscow With the Ukrainian flag, no. For Ukraine, the
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: victory is that Russia leaves, stops firing bombs, and that
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: Ukraine is again a free country to live in and
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: free to have a future. That is the victory of
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: Ukraine that we all want, which would not be a
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: victory of Ukraine. It would be a victory of peace,
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: it would be a victory of justice, it would be
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: a victory of international law, not just of Ukraine.