Latest / The Price of Music / Interview: Youth Music CEO Matt Griffiths

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Interview: Youth Music CEO Matt Griffiths · The Price of Music

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Shopify.com/promo Hello and welcome to The Price of Music,
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the show that looks at the money behind the music industry with
0:49
me, Musicalise Head of Insight Stuart Dredge.
0:52
And usually this bit's done by the guy who's got decades of
0:55
professional radio experience, but Steve is away in South by
0:58
Southwest at the moment, so I'm flying solo this week.
1:01
We're not entirely solo. This is an interview, so I'm
1:04
going to be talking to Matt Griffiths, who is the CEO of
1:07
Youth Music, which is the charity that funds a lot of the
1:11
exciting projects around the country dealing with kind of
1:15
young people and music in all its forms.
1:18
So I'm going to talk to him now. Welcome, Matt, to The Price of
1:22
Music. Thank you, Stuart.
1:24
Nice to see you. Nice.
1:25
To see you too, I mean, we've talked about quite a few of your
1:28
announcements in the past year and but this feels like a really
1:31
good time to actually talk to you in more depth because we
1:35
talked on on the show last week. I talked about being at the Brit
1:37
Awards and seeing as a collective collect their award,
1:39
which is a really big moment, and shouting out Tomorrow's
1:42
Warriors, which is the kind of group they got started.
1:44
And I think that wonderful phrase was that we can fix
1:47
society's problems by giving a young person a trumpet or a
1:49
saxophone. And that was like a big positive
1:52
amount. And then the next day I think it
1:53
was, well, Sophie, who handles your, it just comes with you
1:56
guys. Anyway, she was saying that your
1:58
research shows 41% of those projects at risk of closure.
2:01
So I sort of thought this is a time to talk about this, like at
2:04
this moment when these projects seem really valuable and
2:07
important, but they're facing these huge challenges.
2:10
And I think you know about both those things.
2:13
And what better Who better person?
2:15
Well, thank you and, and thanks for the opportunity to chat
2:17
about it. And yeah, the grassroots youth
2:19
musics projects are in a, a state of crisis to be honest.
2:23
And we're supporting about 350 organizations across the UK.
2:30
In addition, we're reaching 250 young creatives directly who are
2:35
beginning to make their career in music.
2:37
So in total, you know, it's about 100,000 young people going
2:41
through a system that's powered by youth music.
2:44
So you know, you talked about Ezra Collective, Connecticut
2:48
Bocco to Mario's Warriors Audio Active, where they learnt their
2:52
craft, where Ezra learnt their craft are all spaces powered and
2:55
supported by youth music. And then indeed English teacher
2:58
as well. You know, they came out of a
3:00
program called Music Leads, which is backed by youth music
3:03
as well. So on one hand there's this
3:06
infrastructure that's pretty significant, but it often gets
3:10
forgotten about in terms of where funding and resources go.
3:15
And what we've got at the moment is a situation we surveyed them
3:17
all in January and 41% said yes, at risk of closure, which is
3:22
unprecedented for us. And then and at the same time,
3:26
what we see as a funder is an unprecedented demand for our
3:31
support. So we're seeing that we're
3:34
having to turn down 83% of applications.
3:38
So in this crisis, demand for our support is increasing.
3:42
And at the same time, because of cost of living crisis, because
3:46
of employers costs, I think because of the economy.
3:52
And also a lot of these organizations we support are
3:54
pretty small. They're sort of two, three
3:57
person social enterprises, maybe two 300,000 LB turnover.
4:02
And what tends to happen is there's been really rigorous and
4:06
harsh funding cuts, particularly with Youth Services and
4:10
particularly with local authority cuts.
4:12
And many of the organisations we support have seen their funding
4:15
cut. So as a small organization, if
4:18
if a piece of the pie goes, they're suddenly in a really
4:22
vulnerable position. No, definitely.
4:24
Well, look, we're going to get into a lot of this, but I
4:26
suppose one place to start or to zoom back out again is to talk
4:30
about, I suppose, talk about what youth youth music is.
4:33
And I guess you just sort of explained the fact that a lot of
4:35
the projects you support do have funding from different places.
4:37
So you're not the total fund of these things.
4:40
You're part of it. But yeah, I mean, let's talk
4:41
about what is. Have you spent, how long have
4:43
you been going and where does the money come from to fund the
4:46
work you're doing? And then we can go from.
4:48
There. OK, so we started in 1999 and
4:51
the wonderful Chris Smith, who was culture secretary at the
4:54
time, and Jerry Robinson, who was chair of Arts Council, had
4:57
this idea that basically music's amazing, an amazing thing for
5:01
young people. But all too often so many young
5:03
people are losing out. So let's set up a new charity to
5:07
really look at that. And that's us.
5:09
That's youth music, which is really all about equity,
5:13
inclusion and social change through music really.
5:17
And that's our heritage 25 years.
5:20
And we're about equalizing access to music and we help
5:23
marginalized young people make and monetize music.
5:27
And how we do that primarily is by giving out grants, lots of
5:32
different funding programs to provide a sustainable ecosystem
5:36
for young people to make music in the UK.
5:39
And it's the place like the youth club, like the community
5:42
recording studio. It's like the early years
5:45
setting for very young children with their parents.
5:48
And then it's like the special school, the mental health unit,
5:51
the youth offending institution, anywhere that we know music can
5:55
make a particular difference and how we're supported.
6:00
In 1999, we became the first delegated distributor of
6:04
National Lottery money via Arts Council England, which is a
6:08
designation Stuart that 25 close to 26 years later we still have
6:14
and that's our sort of absolute bedrock.
6:17
And then in in terms of other income, people's post code
6:21
lottery, music industry partners, brand partners, some
6:25
other foundations makes a total turnover around 12 and a half
6:29
million a year and we give out out through the door, get it out
6:34
the door 10 million of that each year.
6:37
Goodness. And I mean, you've sort of
6:38
talked a bit about the sort of things you put there, but I
6:40
mean, I think what struck me whenever I've, when I came to
6:43
your awards a couple of times, whenever seemed to look, what
6:45
struck me is it's a huge variety, isn't it, of, of
6:47
projects and groups you work with in terms of size, what they
6:50
do. I mean, it's hard to say
6:51
describe them all because there's so many, but like what,
6:53
what? So it's kind of it's anyone
6:55
who's working with young people, like you say, in a musical
6:57
context. But that can be hugely wide,
7:00
can't it? Exactly.
7:02
So my last project was I went to see sound Communities in
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Paignton in the southwest, you know, the English River area,
7:09
where there's a classic youth set up for music called Sound
7:13
Communities, working with young rappers, producers, DJ's in a
7:18
studio on a regular basis. It might be work with refugees
7:22
and asylum seekers, Fair Beats, Big Leaf Foundation, it's work
7:28
with disabled young people, some incredible work by an
7:31
organization called Sound About that's working with young
7:34
children with profound and multiple disabilities and how
7:38
music really helps them open up music.
7:42
Similarly, using assistive music technology where disabled young
7:45
people are making music through the movement of their eyes, eye
7:50
gaze technology. So it is a a really varied and
7:53
diverse scene and also therefore the music being created is
7:58
amazing. It's an amazing scene of
8:01
different types of music. But the thread is around this
8:04
argument about social justice, who gets to have access to music
8:08
and who doesn't. And we're really there to
8:10
address those who face the biggest barriers to access.
8:14
So it's anything from early years nought to fives right the
8:18
way through to what you would have seen at the awards, the
8:20
kind of 18 to 25 bracket those young creatives on and off stage
8:26
starting to make a career in music and.
8:28
It's one of the things we've talked about when we talk about
8:30
venues actually is, is it can be easy to sort of look at the big
8:34
successes like say, for example, look at Ezra Collective and say,
8:37
look, this thing, this organization, this, this network
8:40
creates the next stars. And that's an important part of
8:42
it. But it is really interesting to
8:43
me to learn more about actually, it's not just about that.
8:46
It is about the social effects, the community effects.
8:49
It's not just about this thing creates some stars of tomorrow.
8:53
It's about the people who are not the stars of tomorrow, but
8:55
have benefited hugely. Like it's a.
8:58
It's the thing I've learnt, I think, to not just talk about in
9:00
those contexts of space. And that's absolutely right.
9:03
And that that's fundamental. The social and personal outcomes
9:07
that a young person gets from making and learning and earning
9:11
in music, as we know and the evidence tells us, is
9:14
extraordinary. And it builds scenes, it builds
9:17
communities, it builds places where young people can go and
9:20
feel safe and they can explore their identity.
9:23
They express themselves through lyric writing.
9:27
And I guess, boy, do we need those safe environments at this
9:30
present time, you know, not just in the UK but in the world.
9:34
So I think what really gets me up in the morning as much as
9:38
anything is the social and personal benefit that might be
9:42
around how music helps solve an issue for you.
9:46
You know, that might be to do with attendance in school or how
9:50
music is a way that really gets you into school, or it might be
9:53
because of a mental health challenge.
9:55
And one way that you can express that is through music.
10:00
And in the early years space, it might be about, you know, the
10:03
very beginnings of your life when your brain is developing so
10:07
quickly that you're developing language skills and things like
10:10
that. So the social and personally is
10:13
what really drives me. If out of that, Stuart, you then
10:17
get which we see a lot people who then establish a career in
10:21
music and make a job in music, that's even better.
10:25
But that's not the fundamental reason why we exist.
10:28
That's like an added benefit, if you know what I mean.
10:31
Yeah. And I think you talked about the
10:33
idea of opening music access to many people who maybe wouldn't
10:36
have access to studios or instruments.
10:38
That seems like a really input by that because like you said,
10:42
the diversity is what brings forward great music.
10:44
People who are great musicians but maybe didn't have access to
10:47
a trumpet or or or a space or whatever it is.
10:50
Right, the greater diversity, the greater the music.
10:53
I firmly believe that, you know, you can write a banger tune with
10:56
some really amazing lyrics that audiences and young people
11:01
really understand, and it builds this community, it builds these
11:04
scenes. So I think it's a really sort of
11:07
positive byproduct of the social and personal aspects.
11:12
No, definitely. So.
11:13
I mean, given all this and I, I think obviously when it was set
11:16
up, politicians were saying we can see why this is a good thing
11:18
and why we should have it. So you talked about some of the
11:22
reasons, some of the changes they're facing.
11:23
And it sounds from from the outside like a perfect storm.
11:26
It's no one thing that's happening.
11:28
It's, it's all these different things coming together at once.
11:30
Is that a fair some summary? It, it is a bit of a perfect
11:34
storm, the financial and the economic and the social and the
11:38
kind of unfairness bit. But I, I also think for us,
11:44
we're powering this ecosystem. We have been for a long time and
11:47
it's often the kind of forgotten bit of the ecosystem, you know,
11:53
where do these young people go where they can make music?
11:56
And often it's in these places and it often, you know, might be
12:01
in their school music department as well.
12:03
But that's also under pressure, which adds to the perfect storm
12:08
that music should be key stage 1-2 and three in the national
12:11
curriculum. It's statutory, but it's not
12:13
really being enforced. So that adds to the combination
12:17
of factors that's going on really.
12:20
And in a way this is what the crisis is and this is what the
12:24
risk is for social growth of the UK as well as economic growth.
12:29
And that's what we're really interested in addressing.
12:32
And for us, the demand for this type of work has increased
12:37
because I think it's really recognised the power of it.
12:41
But the demand has also increased in terms of
12:44
applications to youth music because it's really, really
12:47
tough and the pots of money for this type of music activity is
12:52
is very hard to come by. And I, I mean, I'm, I'm not
12:56
really a massive expert on the world of kind of arts funding,
13:00
but I've picked up outside music.
13:02
There's just seemed to be this, this really brutal cuts that
13:05
have meant that people who are losing funding, it's not because
13:09
they haven't been doing well or doing good work or successful.
13:13
It just seems to be sometimes the hammer has fallen on the
13:16
funding and there's they can't get it.
13:17
I mean, it seems like a really tough time in that sense.
13:19
And it's not based on what you're doing or whether you're
13:21
good at it. It just seems to be a.
13:24
Precisely. And the, you know, the arts and
13:27
culture system, one of the, you know, the main players in that
13:30
is Arts Council England. And in fans to them they're
13:32
they're seeing similar levels of unprecedented demand.
13:36
But there is a point to be made about the funding that does
13:40
exist where it goes. So we take an incredibly
13:44
targeted approach to reach those that face the biggest barriers
13:48
to access. And that kind of recognises that
13:51
for some in society who maybe already have the opportunity,
13:57
the subsidy doesn't have to necessarily go there because
14:00
they'll be OK. And in fact, you know, some
14:04
aspects of the music industry could be argued as becoming
14:07
increasingly about privilege. You know, Sam Fender wrote about
14:11
this recently Rather than actually being from a diversity
14:14
of backgrounds, including working class backgrounds.
14:17
So that discourse and debate continues.
14:22
And I think for us it's like being confident about taking
14:27
that targeted approach, being competent also to take a
14:30
geographic approach. So 85% of our investment is
14:33
deliberately outside London. So we have a regional balancing
14:38
process for the regions and the nations in the UK, which informs
14:42
based on indices of deprivation and things like that where we
14:46
place our money. So I think there's things that
14:48
you can do to make the money that you have go far.
14:53
But actually our 10 million really long term to meet the
14:56
demand should be 40 million. Goodness, and it's one of the, I
15:01
mean, there's a good, there's many good reasons why I'm not a
15:04
politician. There's a whole podcast in that
15:06
company about why I'd be unsuited to any of that.
15:08
But one of the things that I, when I step back and look at
15:10
this, I think goodness, OK, I've read enough about the the, the
15:14
power of these programmes, power of music to say, right, it's a
15:16
really good thing. Whether it's if you're worried
15:19
about crime, if you're worried about job prospects, all these
15:23
things people worry about this can help.
15:26
And it seems so short sighted when these programmes are
15:30
arbitrarily cut or not spoiled or even in schools when music
15:32
education gets sort of chucked out the curriculum.
15:34
But I mean, is that because it's it's too easy to kind of think,
15:38
oh, it's just music, It's not it's not that important Or why,
15:40
why is music often the thing that suffers, I guess, in these
15:43
kind of cuts? I think it's a bit of that, oh,
15:46
this isn't so important compared to other things.
15:49
And, and I think it's a little bit for me, Stuart, about the
15:52
role of musician in society. You know, I was a musician
15:56
originally I'm, I was a drummer, but percussionist and people
16:00
would go, it must be so amazing to do something that you love.
16:03
And of course it is. And I'm, I got by.
16:08
But then there's a sort of assertion that because you love
16:12
it so much, you don't need to be able to make your living
16:16
somehow. It's because you're doing a job
16:18
that everyone would love to do. And that's partly true, but it
16:21
requires those youth workers, it requires those music teachers,
16:25
everything Clammy talked about, which is the ecosystem where all
16:29
these young people really thrive.
16:31
So the workforce is is really, really important to.
16:34
It's why I think it's about something about the position of
16:37
the artist and musician in society that it needs nurturing,
16:44
it needs backing to feed this wonderful industry that we have
16:51
for years to come on on a very sustainable basis.
16:54
Yeah. Definitely.
16:56
I mean, I was going to ask that brutally simple question.
16:59
We're going to get on to what you're doing in a minute in your
17:01
announcement this week. But but is this something that
17:03
could could be solved simply by the government saying here's a
17:05
big wodge of cash, have at it? Or is it more complicated that
17:09
in terms of thinking what what could be done to alleviate this
17:12
crisis, but then to build, I suppose?
17:14
So would a big watch of cash help from government?
17:18
Yes, of course. But like with a pragmatic head
17:22
on, things are really tight. And I think this current
17:26
government who who in a way really understand this work,
17:30
they need to do some policy work on it, but they do understand
17:34
it. I think they're looking to the
17:36
industry in the wider sense to coalesce together around music
17:42
and young people in this country and strategically work together.
17:46
So it's much more joined up about how young people get into
17:50
music on and off stage. And I think the government are
17:54
also looking to, you know, certain aspects of the industry
17:57
that's wealthy to put some money behind it, you know, rather than
18:03
a small project that maybe doesn't last long, but it gets a
18:06
bit of, you know, sparkly PR. It's actually about a
18:09
sustainable investment where the labels, the DSPS, literally put
18:14
competition out the door, outside the door and coalesce
18:18
around young people in music. I believe that if that happens
18:22
then the government will be interested, but I don't think
18:26
it's a question of going to government at the moment and
18:29
just saying give us some cash because there is cash in the
18:33
system, but how it's distributed is probably the thing that we
18:38
can do better at and in some ways is quite unfair.
18:42
There's a kind of irony that the charity system for music and
18:47
young people, which you know, youth music is right at the
18:50
heart of, is almost the place where talent and creativity and
18:57
young artists are emerging. But in the meantime, the
19:00
commercial aspects of the music industry, there are things
19:03
happening, don't get me wrong, but it's not as ambitious as it
19:07
should be. The number of young people we
19:09
see coming out and going out to work on stage or off stage,
19:13
that's to the industry's benefit.
19:15
And they're going, thank you very much and I'm going that's
19:17
fine. But it shouldn't just be up to
19:20
the charity sector to be these places where this pathway for
19:24
young people is created. So I suppose what I'm saying is
19:28
industry get it right. First, the national music
19:30
strategy and I think that's what the government are almost
19:34
insisting the industry does. And yes, there's been the
19:38
conversations about the levy etcetera, etcetera.
19:41
But I think that's what the government's looking for because
19:44
we are talking to a more open door, I think with this
19:47
government who, you know, who were who were part of the
19:50
heritage of starting youth music in 1999.
19:53
But I think they get so many requests or lobbying for give us
19:59
a pot of money. And another organization says,
20:01
don't give us a pot of money. And it's like, come on,
20:05
everybody, let's get joined up about this.
20:08
And then, you know, that's the idea of this kind of, you know,
20:10
national music strategy. Does that make sense?
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21:17
It does it does. And I was wondering if there's a
21:18
moment happening now because like you were let you need to
21:20
levy. I mean, we when we I talked to
21:22
Mark David of the Music Venue Trust recently and he was
21:26
talking about right. We're our next fundraising
21:28
campaign. We're going to be going around
21:29
all the big music companies, all the streaming services and
21:32
saying, look, you need grassroots venues to survive.
21:37
And he seemed quite optimistic that that message would get
21:39
across. Because I think maybe they're
21:41
people waking up to it and saying, even though I'm a label,
21:44
I still have an investment in there being small venues that
21:46
survive. And similar with this with with
21:48
youth. Like maybe in the past, perhaps
21:50
music news didn't think about, well, what has three to five
21:53
year olds doing music got to do with me?
21:55
But do you have a sense that maybe that you're you're going
21:58
to push an open door with the industry in that and saying
22:00
actually they may realise now the grass roots in terms of
22:03
infrastructure, but also in terms of projects and youth
22:06
things. Do you sense a change in the
22:08
wind? And that's where our optimism
22:11
comes in. Yes, I do.
22:14
I think it's that thing where maybe in the past it's been,
22:18
that's great, Matt. It's not my problem or it's,
22:20
it's not our, it's not our core purpose.
22:23
You know, you do that, we do this.
22:26
But I think that's changing. And what we're seeing and
22:29
hearing from is if you like change makers, you know, people
22:32
who genuinely and passionately get the power of music and want
22:37
to do something about it. And their day job could well be
22:40
working in, you know, a significant music industry body
22:44
or, you know, a service or whatever it might be.
22:47
So I think these group of change makers are the very people who
22:50
can drive and affect change. And and then the economic
22:54
argument I think has been made, you know what the IT means to
22:57
the economy. But I think what we can make
22:59
more of is like the social economy for music and the scenes
23:03
that are created across the UK that is great for music as well.
23:09
So yeah, I would share that optimism, but we've just got to
23:15
get organised in an, in a music industry system that is
23:19
sometimes it's so competitive, which can lead to real
23:24
fragmentation. And my call is we'll put that
23:27
outside the door a minute and let's coalesce together around
23:32
music and young people a bit like some aspects of the sports
23:36
sector have done and the football sector's done.
23:38
It's it's clearer, the system is clearer for a young person and I
23:43
think we can do that. Yeah.
23:44
And like you say, there's that example out there to say, look,
23:46
it can be done, someone has done it.
23:48
Exactly. I mean, we're talking the day
23:51
before you launch your most ambitious fundraising campaign
23:54
yet, and this will go out after it.
23:56
And so, yeah, I mean, tell me that because that that feels for
23:59
you like an exciting moment of right, here's what we're doing.
24:01
So yeah, what you're doing, how's it going to work?
24:03
What's the What's the big news this week?
24:05
Yeah, an exciting moment and a much needed moment and we're
24:10
calling it Rescue the Roots, which is a fundraising campaign,
24:14
shining a spotlight on this like really important aspect of the
24:18
ecosystem and then raising more money to back it.
24:22
So in the first phase, youth music ourselves, we're putting
24:26
up £1,000,000 to match every donation that comes in up to
24:31
1,000,000. So we could have a pot of
24:33
£2,000,000 which we will distribute in 2025 to those
24:39
organisations that we know are particularly vulnerable and at
24:42
risk. That's been reported in the
24:44
research. And that could be
24:47
philanthropists, foundations, industry partners, public
24:51
donations, etcetera, etcetera. And of course artists as well,
24:55
who artists often do really recognise the need for this
24:59
because they've been through it themselves.
25:01
So in total, a 2 million campaign.
25:04
And yeah, that's what's being launched this week.
25:08
And the important bit is that Youth Music is putting its money
25:10
where its mouth is. You know, the Youth Music and
25:13
its board, my board have said we'll put a million from our
25:16
reserves behind it to match these donations.
25:19
So Stuart, that's phase one for us.
25:21
Rescue the roots. And then in a way, over time,
25:24
with everything I've just talked about, kind of restore and grow
25:27
the roots where we can begin to grow this ecosystem more and
25:31
meet this demand. So success rates for applicants
25:34
to use music go up, the organisations at risk of closure
25:38
go down, and then we could get to a point where the 10 million
25:43
becomes more over time. A key bit of this is this idea
25:49
of coalition, because none of us can do this on our own.
25:54
So it's a real call to arms for the industry and education to
25:58
join up and do this together. And if you like, youth music is
26:02
the funnel because we know exactly across the UK where this
26:08
investment is needed. So the other important point
26:11
we're saying is, you know, partners, industry bodies
26:14
getting into this, you don't need to do it yourself.
26:17
You really don't need to reinvent the wheel.
26:19
No reinventions of wheels. We know the system, we know
26:22
where it goes, and we do this together.
26:25
We should kind of, I guess in the past I've seen a few things
26:28
where people have announced things that sound quite good
26:30
like that. We know we should be supporting
26:31
X, here's our announcements. And and like you say, they then
26:34
have to go and do the whole thing from scratch when there
26:37
might be someone who's got 25 years, a good number out of the
26:41
air doing it. So that's a.
26:42
There's a good. There's an argument there that I
26:43
think will will hit home. Yeah.
26:45
And you know, don't get me wrong, if an artist or a
26:48
foundation sets themselves up and it's in their name,
26:51
brilliant and they deeply care about it, don't get me wrong.
26:55
But administratively and mechanically and funding wise,
26:59
you don't need to start a grant making process again because,
27:02
you know, we've been doing that for 25 years and you know,
27:06
they'll still be acknowledgement about all these partners.
27:08
But there's something with a certain an amount of humility
27:11
about working together and, you know, that's quite challenging
27:15
at times because the music industry working together
27:19
strategically, you know, is a thing we want to get right.
27:23
But you know, as we said just a bit before, I think there's a
27:27
momentum building now, which I'm excited about.
27:30
Yeah, and you mentioned artists actually.
27:32
I mean, this is one thing that's been I've been noticing more is
27:34
that you are there are a number of artists in the last year have
27:37
used whatever platform they have, whether it's interviews,
27:40
whether it's on Brit, the Brit Awards where I think Miles,
27:43
Miles Smith, last dinner party people.
27:46
Is that something that feels like a puzzism that artists are
27:48
sort of not they're not scared of saying actually I've got a
27:51
point that might be seen as political, but support this,
27:55
support that. That seems like a maybe not a
27:58
change. Artists have always talked about
27:59
this stuff. But at the right at the moment,
28:01
artists seem to have a lot of them are working up to the
28:03
gravity of the situation facing the grassroots and are saying,
28:06
yeah, actually we did get our start there, we're going to get
28:09
behind it. Is that something you good for
28:11
what you're doing I guess? Yeah.
28:13
And then and then in some cases, artists then approach us because
28:16
they want to do VIP guest lists, donations like Fred again or Sam
28:19
Fender, you know, a donation per ticket sold, you know, things
28:24
like that. And we think there's much more
28:26
to do and there are other artists who would like to do
28:30
that with us. And it was a definite theme of
28:32
the Brits. I think there were several
28:33
conversations, as you said, about the power of this and the
28:36
artist has that external platform.
28:40
And then to take it to the next stage, talk to youth music.
28:46
You know, we've literally got a list of where these places are
28:49
that maybe are supported by youth music or indeed a part of
28:52
the, you know, 83% that we've had to turn down so we could
28:57
actually actually work efficiently and at quite a pace
29:03
to solve this situation. And it is relatively efficient.
29:07
And I think, you know, everyone's just interested in
29:09
efficiency. We don't need to be duplicating
29:12
by all doing different grant making policies and grant making
29:17
procedures for applicants who then have to do an evaluation
29:21
form per funding partners, if you see what I mean.
29:25
So that'll. Be a lot of form filling, isn't
29:27
it? Yeah, a lot of form filling, but
29:28
actually the the the purpose of the work is kind of universal.
29:33
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, this brings us to that.
29:36
I mean, you put out a report in December, I think wasn't it the
29:38
Industry Connect report? And I think that was about
29:40
collaboration, but it wasn't just within the music industry.
29:42
It was between music and education sectors, I think,
29:45
which that seems because because, and correct me if I'm
29:49
wrong, but that that's not something I've read a lot about
29:52
in the past like the the these, these seem to be completely
29:55
separate sectors doing things and sometimes there are links,
29:58
but tell me about. That, yeah.
30:01
And all too often there are not links.
30:03
So there's a national plan for music education that has a
30:06
section in there about join up with the industry.
30:10
But at the moment that join UPS not really happening
30:12
strategically. So we're in the middle of that
30:15
space between education and industry.
30:17
So I think the first thing is this idea about making it much
30:21
clearer to young people, because it's pretty opaque about what
30:24
that route is in to the music industry as an artist or as a
30:29
technical condition or as a stage manager, whatever it might
30:31
be. And if you're at school, you're
30:34
talking to a careers person who doesn't fob you off, who with a
30:38
couple of lines can tell you about the music industry.
30:42
Now that might mean the school has to speak to one of the
30:44
organisations we fund, but everyone is signposted.
30:48
I think the second thing that came through was so many artists
30:52
and so many people in the industry talk about mentors.
30:55
You know, I can talk about people who mentored me, but they
30:58
probably didn't call themselves a mentor at the time, but they
31:00
were definitely a mentor. I think getting much more
31:03
consistent about giving young people mentors who know about
31:08
the industry to help them. There was a Third Point about
31:11
reimagining the music curriculum.
31:13
So as I said, it's a statutory part of the curriculum, but
31:17
interestingly, for a lot of young people, they see their
31:21
lives in music as separate to the curriculum in schools.
31:24
So what I mean by that is if the curriculum really embraced their
31:28
rapping, their producing, their love of music, the teacher
31:32
working alongside the youth worker, you could reimagine what
31:35
the curriculum looks like. And the last point was about a
31:40
safe music industry, which, you know, in terms of safeguarding,
31:44
we're looking at that a lot because we're helping young
31:47
people enter the industry. But I think working with like
31:50
the MU Music Guardians, young people are clear about, you
31:55
know, being safe and that they will be safe as they enter a job
31:59
in the industry for an industry that sometimes doesn't keep
32:03
people safe. And I think that, again, is
32:06
bridging that gap between where a young person has done
32:10
education and now they're beginning to get into the world
32:14
of work. And if you've already got that
32:17
network, and maybe if you're from a, you know, a family
32:20
background that's quite privileged, you'll have those
32:24
networks open to you. But we're really talking about
32:27
those young people that don't have that, so that any interface
32:32
they have with a job in music is safe and they're protected and
32:35
they're looked after. I've been covering the the
32:38
misogyny and music inquiry. I've been and just some of the
32:41
some of the evidence given there.
32:43
People talk about, I think partly because often there are
32:45
points where you're alone, for example, in a studio with the
32:47
producer, there were moments where you can be unsafe.
32:50
There's a cultures like it. It, it really did kind of lay a
32:52
lot of that stuff there where you thought, goodness, if you
32:55
are a young person coming into this there would, I couldn't
32:58
understand how you would have those concerns and you wouldn't
33:00
know what to do if you encountered that.
33:02
So it sounds like that's something that you're thinking
33:03
really hard about as well, though.
33:05
Yeah. And we embed that in our grant
33:07
making principles. So you're safeguarding policy
33:10
and practice we want to know about.
33:14
So how do you operate and how do you protect, you know,
33:18
vulnerable young people, which is, you know, which is your
33:21
responsibility as an organization?
33:25
And I guess honed in even more with something like the music
33:28
industry, where for young people, if they get a break,
33:33
that can sometimes mean they're vulnerable about not being
33:37
looked after well because they're so thrilled to have got
33:41
in the industry that then they can be taken advantage of.
33:44
You're lucky to have this job, is often the phrase I hear.
33:47
You're lucky to have this job, so don't complain about
33:49
anything. Yeah.
33:50
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're lucky that we've done
33:52
this for you. And you know, back to the
33:54
earlier point, you're lucky to be a musician, but actually, you
33:57
know, on and off stage, we're fundamentally about being safe.
34:03
And the work with music guardians is looking at all
34:05
that. And also with the MU as well.
34:08
This all came out of Industry Connect.
34:09
We talked to about 300 people, lots of organizations, and it's
34:14
basically saying, Stuart, the system for the pathway for a
34:17
young person to enter music is not working.
34:20
It's too fragmented, it's too disparate and it could be so
34:25
much clearer and it kind of starts in school and then
34:29
onwards. Yeah, and then let's say the
34:31
people you would lose by it not being good is is just a loss of
34:35
talented people who? Exactly.
34:37
Exactly. I mean, the report mentioned a
34:39
national music strategy. I think you've mentioned this a
34:41
couple of times in this conversation.
34:42
And this is something I'm really fascinated by because I've heard
34:44
more people talking about it recently and saying we need a
34:48
national, we need to join up. The things in government, we
34:50
need to join up. And this idea of having a
34:53
national music strategy seems to be, I remember I talked to, you
34:56
know, Tom Gray, who. Yeah, yeah.
34:58
Well, he. Spent a lot of time talking
35:00
about streaming economy and then last time I interviewed him, he
35:02
was like, actually the thing I'm most interested in now as a
35:05
national music strategy, I'm really focusing on that.
35:08
And that was when my ears proved.
35:09
I wonder what this is and how it works in it.
35:11
But it sounds like you also are thinking about this idea of
35:13
joining up. Yeah, we'd be big, massive
35:17
supporters and like to have a central role in it in terms of
35:20
young people's lives in music, our bit of the ecosystem, if you
35:24
like. You know, it's like that without
35:26
people, you're nothing. The Joe Strummer quote that, you
35:29
know, we're interested in those young people that they're, you
35:31
know, they're safe, they're in careers, and we know about how
35:35
that system works. So I guess that's joining that
35:38
with the ivars, let's join that with UK music, etcetera,
35:41
etcetera. How it specifically looks is
35:45
going to be the next stage because there is a model,
35:48
there's a national plan for music education, but it's very
35:51
limited and driven by Department for Education.
35:55
So it's very still schools focused, but there is a
35:59
framework that could then be utilized to create a kind of
36:02
more overarching universal national music strategy.
36:07
So it feels like key partners could be, in that setting, some,
36:12
you know, ambitious and exciting aims and objectives for its
36:16
first three to five years and then an action plan underneath
36:20
it, which is basically who's doing what.
36:24
So it would require guessing industry and education and all
36:28
the kind of key bodies in a room together, which, you know, could
36:32
be a bit of a bun fight. But it's it, it, it, it has to
36:36
be the place to start. Do you know what?
36:38
I mean, and actually starting from a point where they all
36:40
agree on something, which is this would be good, whereas
36:42
normally they'd be fighting over revenue shares or, you know,
36:45
contracts. They could maybe come together
36:47
on this in another way. And all that is like, you know,
36:49
vitally important stuff economically, financially, but
36:53
this is about, you know, the kind of social growth as, as I,
36:56
as I've referred to as much as the musical and economic growth
37:01
and, and putting those things to one side a minute to come
37:05
together around young people and, and music in this country.
37:09
I'm kind of excited about it. And there's others in the system
37:13
as well and other partner organisations who are too a a
37:17
big job. But then we could be really
37:21
punching above our weight because I don't think the
37:24
industry per SE as a collective is doing that yet.
37:30
I'm often quite pessimistic about people thinking long term.
37:33
Like I think the last 10 years have grounded out of me my
37:36
optimism, like about politicians looking ahead of the next week,
37:40
later than next year. But but I don't you have to
37:43
comment on that. But but later, I mean, you were
37:46
set. Youth music was set up by a
37:47
politician, Chris Smith. And like who was thinking ahead?
37:51
And so there's no that can happen.
37:53
I know at the moment a lot, a lot of things seem to be we need
37:56
economic growth quick. Do everything for that.
37:57
Don't worry. I think chop the trees down,
37:59
runways, everything. But maybe there is a moment to
38:03
say this is long term thinking. If we do this, it will be good
38:06
in 25 years time, not just in a year.
38:09
Exactly. And I think what often works
38:11
well for me is painting a picture together about what that
38:14
could look like, you know, and what would look different.
38:17
So we've got something to get our head round and then go and
38:21
how are we going to get there? Which has been the different
38:24
phases of youth music. The the vision mission has
38:27
stayed pretty constant, but how we do it through political
38:30
change, cost of living crisis, COVID, you know, you have to be
38:34
very agile. But I think giving that picture
38:37
of what it could look like is probably the best place to
38:41
start, which is like a perpetual sustainable ecosystem funded by
38:48
a combination of things which I think the government would
38:51
really, really love to see. And if if anyone weird way, I
38:55
mean, I didn't, I was thinking about the 41% figure of projects
38:59
risk closure, but I didn't really think about the the ones
39:01
who didn't get funded. Is it 83%?
39:02
You said the ones. Yeah.
39:03
Are we turning down and like that future where many more of
39:07
those get funded? That's that's something that's,
39:09
you know, this isn't about stopping the ones closing
39:12
already here, an exciting future in funding all these other ones
39:15
that were really interesting but just couldn't get there.
39:18
Exactly. And that's what I mean about the
39:20
10 million over time, you know this is a long term approach,
39:23
could be 40 million. And yes, there will still be
39:28
applicants who are unsuccessful because actually what they're
39:31
proposing is maybe not in line with what we're trying to do or
39:34
there's something that's quite weak in the application about
39:37
safeguarding due diligence, governance, their financial
39:42
models. So they'll still be
39:44
organizations that get turned down.
39:45
That's the nature of the beast. But you know, certainly not to
39:48
be at 83%, which we've never seen in our 25 year history.
39:53
And I, you know, I think partly this work, this type of work in
39:59
the, in the system is, is more recognized.
40:02
So there's more demand, but the, you know, the urgent.
40:08
Crisis is because of all this demand, because cost of living
40:11
and you know, financial cuts, youth service cuts over 50% over
40:16
the last 10 years. You know that classic youth club
40:19
where Esher probably went, you know, where English teacher
40:22
would have gone. You know, Laura Mavoula came
40:26
through youth music support projects, Rizzle Kicks, Little
40:29
Sims was in youth clubs, Celeste, all these people.
40:32
And as you said, it's not the end in itself, but it does
40:36
demonstrate the kind of power of this kind of grassroots youth
40:40
music spaces and projects to help the whole.
40:44
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, I was going to, well, I
40:47
was going to ask a final question of how optimistic
40:48
you're feeling, but you kind of have answered that very well.
40:51
But, but so maybe a slightly different twist on that is you
40:54
talk to a lot of the people you're working with, the project
40:56
leaders, the youth workers, I mean, what's what, how would you
40:59
characterise how they're feeling?
41:01
Because I guess to do that kind of work, you need to be
41:04
optimistic about human beings, but equally they're under this
41:07
huge pressure. So what would you say?
41:08
I guess the that the mood is amongst and I know you, it's
41:11
hard to generalise it. Why tricky.
41:12
But what sort of things are you getting back from the people you
41:15
work with about how they're feeling about the future?
41:18
That's a really lovely way to look at it, actually.
41:20
You know, these are, you know, the people working in this
41:23
system and a lot of the industry are good humans.
41:26
Do you know what I mean? And and really want to make a
41:28
difference. So what is a constant is that
41:30
resilience and persistence and that focus on young people, like
41:34
what's making young people tick and understanding what they need
41:39
to then inform what you then do. So I think that's a real
41:43
strength of this system. It's not imposed on young
41:46
people, it's with and for young people who across the nation and
41:51
across the UK, love music so that passion never dwindles.
41:57
I think there's a sense of exhaustion because it's a part
42:02
of the system that, you know, is suffering and the high percent
42:08
is at risk of closure. And I think wanting to feel
42:13
acknowledged and understood in the system and something like,
42:18
you know, youth music who, you know, fortunately, people, you
42:22
know, talk a lot very positively about what we what we do.
42:26
And I think CS is that spokes person organization on behalf of
42:31
these smaller organisations. So there's a meeting of minds
42:36
and I think they're looking to us to show that leadership to
42:39
help make change. So the love of music and the
42:44
passion for supporting young people just doesn't go.
42:46
But I think there's this sort of general sense of exhaustion at
42:50
the moment and a big sense of hope that things will get
42:56
better. But global events too, mixed in
43:00
with UK events. It feels like a really tough
43:04
time. Stuart, I don't know if you if
43:05
you see what I mean. I do, I know I do.
43:07
I think a lot of people are feeling it that that when
43:10
something you're doing is going is is tough, but everything
43:14
around it, you look at read the news or doom scroll your phone
43:17
probably nowadays it can make, I think exhausting is a good word
43:20
for it, isn't it? I think they do feel they're
43:22
not. They're not lost.
43:23
They're not lost enthusiasm for what they're doing, they're just
43:27
exhausted. Yeah, pushing on.
43:29
Yeah, exactly. And want to feel that this
43:33
system is being really listened to and because it can be
43:38
sometimes a bit forgotten in all the other noise that goes on.
43:42
And what we've tried to do at youth music is power this
43:45
infrastructure and keep it going as much as we possibly can.
43:49
And you know, that means that the kind of consistency is youth
43:52
music underneath all these organisations that supported
43:55
those artists we talked about. But we probably need to like
43:58
raise the profile of this to really be able to get into
44:02
people's understanding that it's such a significant part of where
44:06
it all starts. No differently.
44:08
Well, look, I mean, it's been great talking to you.
44:10
And so Rescue the Roots will have launched by the time this
44:12
goes out. So people can, I guess, can come
44:14
and find out about it. And so, I mean, we have a
44:15
mixture of listeners, like, you know, some listeners are in
44:17
industry, some are just interested in music fans.
44:19
But people can come to the site, find out about it and figure out
44:23
how they can get involved. I guess, yeah.
44:25
And there's we've got some great content, you know, going out
44:27
about it, supported by artists and Jordan Stevens has, you
44:31
know, really got involved with it as well.
44:34
And on a very pragmatic basis, if this is really resonating
44:38
with you, you can donate, you know, you can donate to build
44:41
this pot to do something more with at this really urgent time.
44:46
Well, Grant, well look, best of luck with it and hopefully we'll
44:48
have you on again in the future talking about some of the things
44:51
that have been been funded by this campaign, so.
44:53
I'd love that, Stuart. Thank you.
44:55
Lovely to talk to you. You too.
44:58
So that was Matt. I think the thing I took away
45:01
from that was, like you said, there's a real there is a
45:04
crisis. The projects are not going to
45:06
lose their funding, Not those projects not getting funded at
45:08
all, but also optimism about the people involved, optimism about
45:13
the idea there is a plan of how to kind of help them.
45:17
And there's a campaign kicking off this week, which sounds
45:21
brilliant. So I think like a lot of the
45:22
interviews do with people who are working in this area, you
45:26
can kind of sit there and get drowned in there.
45:29
Oh God, everything's terrible. Or you can look to the bright,
45:33
but in his head, and I think Matt put it very well, the
45:37
reasons he's optimistic and the way he sees a path to to do lots
45:40
more of this good work. So thanks for listening.
45:44
If you've enjoyed the show, please do subscribe to us in
45:46
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45:55
If you've got a question you'd like answer on the show, we will
45:58
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46:00
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46:04
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46:10
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46:12
Next week, Steve, we're back. I'll be asking him which bands
46:15
he's seen at South by Southwest and we'll be talking about news
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and what's going on the industry.
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So for now, goodbye.