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Building a Writing Career with Lauren Smith · WriterCon

0:00
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
0:03
Speaker 2: I think it depends on what their career plan is.
0:06
Speaker 2: So if their goal is to accomplish writing a book
0:09
Speaker 2: and finishing the book and just getting it out into
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Speaker 2: the world, that's a different question, I think than if
0:14
Speaker 2: a writer is trying to look toward a career.
0:17
Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
0:20
Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Do
0:23
Speaker 1: you have a desire to write? Every successful writer started
0:26
Speaker 1: with their first book. All it takes is determination and knowledge,
0:30
Speaker 1: and writer Con can provide that knowledge. Your hosts are
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Speaker 1: number one national best selling writer William Bernhardt, author of
0:36
Speaker 1: more than sixty books, including The Superman Wars, and Laura Bernhardt,
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Speaker 1: Award winning author of the Wantlan File series and Shadow
0:44
Speaker 1: of the taj.
0:49
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich heylor Writers. Thanks for joining us today.
0:54
Speaker 3: This is our last podcast before writer Con, so I
0:58
Speaker 3: hope you'll forgive us if we talk talk about it
1:00
Speaker 3: one more time. The annual writer Con conference in Oklahoma
1:04
Speaker 3: City over Labor Day weekends September fourth through the seventh.
1:08
Speaker 3: Still time to register and make plans to join us.
1:12
Speaker 3: Over what sixty speakers I think and record number of agents, publishers,
1:18
Speaker 3: others in the industry. Laura and I were just talking
1:21
Speaker 3: about how we're going to streamline the agent pitching process
1:25
Speaker 3: to make it even more efficient and make sure everyone
1:28
Speaker 3: gets to talk to everyone they want to talk to.
1:32
Speaker 3: And that goes for not only agents, but private consultations,
1:37
Speaker 3: manuscript reviews, and a bunch of other cool stuff in
1:39
Speaker 3: addition to the like hundred or so classes. Lara, are
1:43
Speaker 3: you ready to staff the registration table and get this
1:47
Speaker 3: thing off to another exciting start.
1:50
Speaker 4: Yes, I don't have the energy to channel my inner SpongeBob,
1:53
Speaker 4: but I'm ready. Yes, I am. It's one of my
1:57
Speaker 4: favorite things because I get to greet everybody as they
2:01
Speaker 4: come in, and I just love the energy at the
2:04
Speaker 4: registration table. It's so exciting when we're getting things started
2:07
Speaker 4: and everyone's just showing up and we're all we're meeting
2:11
Speaker 4: the new people for the first time and seeing faces
2:14
Speaker 4: that I only see once a year. It's so much fun.
2:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jesse, I mentioned that this is our last podcast
2:22
Speaker 3: before a writer Con, but that's not quite correct actually,
2:24
Speaker 3: because we're recording a live podcast at writer Con. That's
2:30
Speaker 3: really the end of the season, and then we'll take
2:33
Speaker 3: September off and come back with a new season in October.
2:36
Speaker 1: Just everybody, I'm excited for what joke I'm going to
2:41
Speaker 1: make at James Parson's expense this time.
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Speaker 4: I mean we always look forward.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, listener, yeah, listeners, get ready.
2:50
Speaker 3: Should be lots of fun. All right. Today our interview
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Speaker 3: is with another writer con guest and friend of the podcast,
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Speaker 3: Laurence Smith. She's a long time friend of like I said,
3:02
Speaker 3: the podcast and the conference. She's a USA Today best
3:04
Speaker 3: selling author of many books romance, romanticy, cozy mysteries. Sherlock
3:11
Speaker 3: Holmes has a period in her books and probably a
3:14
Speaker 3: lot of other things, because she's got over ninety books
3:17
Speaker 3: that have been translated in at least six languages that
3:20
Speaker 3: I could count.
3:22
Speaker 1: She was a.
3:22
Speaker 3: Semifinalist for the Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley Award and a twenty
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Speaker 3: eighteen read a finalist in the RWA Contest. We're going
3:31
Speaker 3: to talk about her about talk to her about so
3:34
Speaker 3: much writer con and teaching and agents and why you
3:39
Speaker 3: should never sign a contract until you've talked to a lawyer.
3:43
Speaker 5: But first, the news.
3:56
Speaker 3: News story number one. Now, I think you guys have
3:59
Speaker 3: accused me of bringing a lot of you know, depressing
4:03
Speaker 3: dourer stories. So I just want to note that this
4:08
Speaker 3: story really has no significance other than being so happy.
4:14
Speaker 3: It just made me happy to read about it. So
4:16
Speaker 3: this is our happy news story about Amazon hosting an
4:20
Speaker 3: outdoor pop up library dedicated to self published authors in
4:26
Speaker 3: Victoria Park, in a public park, this happened.
4:29
Speaker 4: These are a lot of words I never expected to
4:31
Speaker 4: hear in the same sentence, like us together.
4:34
Speaker 3: Pop up library, or an Amazon and outdoor in a park.
4:39
Speaker 4: In England, like all these good things all ruled into one. Yeah.
4:43
Speaker 3: Well, we talked last time about how publishers and Amazon
4:46
Speaker 3: is a big publisher, are trying to get a bigger
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Speaker 3: piece of the self published author success and this may
4:53
Speaker 3: be more of that. So it was the UK's first
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Speaker 3: outdoor library dedicated to self published authors, and it popped
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Speaker 3: up in Victoria Park to mark the tenth anniversary of
5:04
Speaker 3: the Kindle Storyteller's Award. A spokesman said, quote, Londoners are
5:09
Speaker 3: invited to discover there's summer read this month as Amazon's
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Speaker 3: Kindle Storyteller Award brings the UK's first open air library
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Speaker 3: dedicated to self published books to Victoria Park for one
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Speaker 3: weekend only, and the prize, by the way, if you
5:26
Speaker 3: should happen to win that award, and that's not limited
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Speaker 3: to people in the UK, is twenty thousand pounds, which
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Speaker 3: is more than most self published books are going to
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Speaker 3: make even you know, in ten years. Laura, am I
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Speaker 3: the only one who thinks that this makes happy that
5:44
Speaker 3: thinks the idea of a pop up or for that matter,
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Speaker 3: a permanent outdoor library and a public park is a
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Speaker 3: lovely idea.
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Speaker 4: No, I was just thinking, how do we make this
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Speaker 4: happen here? Because that sounds super fun.
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Speaker 2: I love parks.
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Speaker 4: I love the outdoors. Maybe not when it's a hundre
6:00
Speaker 4: and ten degrees, not so much when it's one hundred degrees,
6:03
Speaker 4: but still. And then we add in yeah I have
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Speaker 4: to write your gun. And then we add in books
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Speaker 4: and getting to meet new authors and writers and connecting
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Speaker 4: readers with those authors. I love it. I think that's
6:16
Speaker 4: a great idea.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I love the idea of it.
6:19
Speaker 4: Being in Victoria Park. Why didn't we go there?
6:23
Speaker 3: I don't remember, but we still could. Jesse, do you
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Speaker 3: think you could be lured into such a place? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: I feel like we talked. There was a story we
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Speaker 1: talked about like book meetups in public places, and this
6:36
Speaker 1: feels very much in that vein. And you know, anything
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Speaker 1: that gets people into areas where they can talk with
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Speaker 1: the people if they want, or just read socially while
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Speaker 1: being aroduced to new authors, I think is a good
6:51
Speaker 1: a good idea. Like Amazon had a good idea. They did.
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Speaker 4: They did, people brought their like dogs and cats, and
7:00
Speaker 4: the dogs could all be walking by.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm still waiting for like the the you know
7:05
Speaker 1: cat bookstore combo like we have we have. We have
7:09
Speaker 1: cat coffee shops.
7:11
Speaker 4: Cat cafe and a bookstore merged with bookstore. It's nirvana.
7:17
Speaker 1: It's a perfect it's a perfect it's perfect. So trade trademarked, copyrighted.
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Speaker 3: Uh good, you need financing. I think they do a
7:26
Speaker 3: great idea.
7:27
Speaker 1: I think we just work a proposal. Yes, I'm gonna
7:33
Speaker 1: I'm gonna work on a cat writer con related pun
7:35
Speaker 1: to call it. So I'll let you know what I
7:37
Speaker 1: come up with, So we'll.
7:38
Speaker 3: Have it by the end of the show.
7:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll say maybe next time.
7:42
Speaker 4: Maybe we'll reveal it at.
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Speaker 1: Writer Oh yes, yes, you have to come to the
7:45
Speaker 1: live writer con recording to hear what my great cat
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Speaker 1: related pun name is for this for this library.
7:53
Speaker 4: Books, cat cafe combo is called Yeah, it's.
7:58
Speaker 1: Not gonna be catter con. That was so so that's
8:00
Speaker 1: the first one that appeared to me. But that's pretty good.
8:03
Speaker 3: Yes, this is story number two. Moving on, AI bestseller
8:09
Speaker 3: has not only been unearthed, but has in turn revealed
8:13
Speaker 3: a huge quantity of AI books. This is that Part's
8:17
Speaker 3: probably not a surprise to anybody who's been listening to this.
8:20
Speaker 3: But we did a happy story, So now we're going
8:23
Speaker 3: to flip to the dark side.
8:24
Speaker 1: Right.
8:26
Speaker 3: Some of you will remember the story about that novel
8:28
Speaker 3: from Simon and Schuster that was revealed to be partly
8:31
Speaker 3: written by AI. Probably, well, The Atlantic has now done
8:37
Speaker 3: a big article that proves that that was not the
8:40
Speaker 3: only one. Since the author h. M. Wolf first uploaded
8:45
Speaker 3: Daggermouth to Amazon as a kindle ebook, it has sold
8:50
Speaker 3: like crazy, so much so that last February Simon and
8:53
Speaker 3: Schuster paid wait for it, seven digits to secure the
8:59
Speaker 3: publishing rights to the book and its sequel, which is
9:03
Speaker 3: coming out next year. So Daggermouth has spent months months
9:08
Speaker 3: on the USA Today bestseller list. Its drength number one
9:12
Speaker 3: in Amazon Science fiction romance genre. It is also the
9:17
Speaker 3: most successful of the hundreds of books recently revealed as
9:22
Speaker 3: containing quote substantial AI text. So there's this new study
9:29
Speaker 3: and the researchers randomly selected fourteen thousand Kinderlee books random
9:34
Speaker 3: through this AI detection program called Pangram. One in five
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Speaker 3: came back as being at least twenty five percent AI written. Daggermouth,
9:47
Speaker 3: in case you're wondering, came back at sixty percent AI written.
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Speaker 3: The study said that in about two thousand of those books,
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Speaker 3: more than half of the pros was AI generated, and
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Speaker 3: that almost one thousand of them were more than ninety
10:03
Speaker 3: percent AI generated. The researchers estimated that the sales of
10:08
Speaker 3: all novels in their sample, their relatively small sample, including
10:12
Speaker 3: at least twenty five percent at least twenty five percent
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Speaker 3: AI generated text, totaled in the tens of millions of
10:20
Speaker 3: dollars just in the last three years. Okay, so we
10:25
Speaker 3: talk about AI slop, but apparently people are selling it.
10:30
Speaker 3: And I assume someone is reading all this stuff, including
10:35
Speaker 3: bestseller Daggermouth sixty percent AI Laura if AI can be
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Speaker 3: used to produce a book that we can't just make
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Speaker 3: fun of because it's so successful. Well, first, we can't
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Speaker 3: pretend that nobody's ever going to use AI to write
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Speaker 3: a book in the future.
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Speaker 4: No encourages people to follow suit. For sure. I assume
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Speaker 4: that sixty percent they probably went back and edited out
11:05
Speaker 4: the stuff that made it very Obviously AI generated would
11:08
Speaker 4: be my guess.
11:09
Speaker 1: Just taking a guess, I don't even know what that
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Speaker 1: would be.
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Speaker 4: Well, I tell my students all the time, don't do
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Speaker 4: this because AI doesn't generate good writing. I can see
11:21
Speaker 4: right through it, So don't turn in assignments that have
11:24
Speaker 4: been AI generated. And I also tell them that it
11:27
Speaker 4: doesn't pay to use this, that we're trying to learn,
11:29
Speaker 4: that we're trying to develop a skill, and now here
11:33
Speaker 4: we have this showing that it can actually pay authors.
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Speaker 4: This is very I think is just going to encourage
11:42
Speaker 4: people to use it more.
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Speaker 3: Do it instead of real writing. I wanted to know
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Speaker 3: how many of these stories involved Elias Thomas. Wasn't that
11:52
Speaker 3: that guy's name?
11:53
Speaker 1: That wasn't my last namebor, But yeah, it was Elia
11:55
Speaker 1: something the larren't thorn thorn, the elast thorn there there.
12:00
Speaker 3: It is the lighthouse keeper or sometimes clock maker that keeps.
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Speaker 1: Showing up and that's that they wrote out.
12:07
Speaker 4: Maybe they changed it so it wasn't the last sworn Yeah.
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Speaker 3: Now, Jesse, you've dodged some questions by saying I'm not
12:14
Speaker 3: a writer, but with the help of AI, maybe you
12:18
Speaker 3: could get into this game. What do you think.
12:20
Speaker 1: I guess if your goal is only to make money
12:26
Speaker 1: or to see your name on the spine of a well, yeah,
12:28
Speaker 1: I guess if you don't care, Like listen, it's one
12:32
Speaker 1: of those the earliest lessons that your parents try to
12:34
Speaker 1: teach you, like if something isn't if it isn't hard,
12:39
Speaker 1: if you didn't work for it, then you get no
12:41
Speaker 1: value out of it, true, right, And so I don't
12:45
Speaker 1: I personally don't understand why people do this. I mean,
12:49
Speaker 1: like I theoretically understand, but at the end of the day,
12:53
Speaker 1: once you get outed as using AI, like, are people
12:56
Speaker 1: really going to read dagger heart too, you know, back
13:00
Speaker 1: into the machine or whatever it's gonna.
13:01
Speaker 3: Be called, like mouth?
13:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, yeah, I just I don't. I don't. I
13:08
Speaker 1: don't see what the endgame is other than a short term,
13:11
Speaker 1: short term you know, money ground. Yeah, I guess.
13:16
Speaker 3: People came up with percent anyway, dagger mouth.
13:21
Speaker 1: I don't know but but but you hear it and
13:24
Speaker 1: you're like, I kind of get it. It's it's almost there.
13:28
Speaker 1: It's almost a good like fantasy title. But yeah, I
13:33
Speaker 1: just you know, I don't, uh, just like I feel
13:37
Speaker 1: guilty every time I use a plugin that's advertised to
13:41
Speaker 1: me as AI to make something sound better, even though
13:42
Speaker 1: I know it's not actually using AI at all, it's
13:44
Speaker 1: just how they sell it to me. Like, I feel,
13:46
Speaker 1: I feel bad that I don't have the knowledge to
13:48
Speaker 1: do that myself. I feel like a real authors would
13:52
Speaker 1: also feel bad about using this. You know, again, it
13:55
Speaker 1: is a tool to help you do things. It's not
13:57
Speaker 1: a tool that we use to create things. That's is
13:59
Speaker 1: my basis rules.
14:00
Speaker 3: Still by that, thank you. So all right, let's move
14:04
Speaker 3: on to Kraft Corner. Last time, you may recall we
14:08
Speaker 3: interviewed agent, a former agent and now editor, Leticia Gomes,
14:13
Speaker 3: and now we have her back with a terrific Craft
14:16
Speaker 3: Corner about pitching and in particular overcoming your fear of pitching,
14:21
Speaker 3: which pretty much everyone has. Get the fear out of
14:25
Speaker 3: the way so you can do your best pitch. Take
14:27
Speaker 3: it away, Letitia.
14:32
Speaker 1: Craft Corner.
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Speaker 6: Hello friends, my name is Lytisia Gomes. And I'm an
14:38
Speaker 6: editor at large for Defina Books, an imprint of New
14:41
Speaker 6: York based traditionally independent publisher Kensington Publishing Corporation. I'm also
14:47
Speaker 6: the founder and principal agent at Savvy Literary Services, which
14:51
Speaker 6: is a Texas based literary agency that represents culturally diverse
14:57
Speaker 6: and mainstream voices. I'm looking forward to meeting as many
15:00
Speaker 6: of you as possible at the upcoming writer Con conference
15:04
Speaker 6: in Oklahoma City in early September. The fear of verbally
15:09
Speaker 6: pitching your completed manuscript face to face to a literary
15:13
Speaker 6: agent or acquisition editor is oh so very real, and
15:18
Speaker 6: it can paralyze aspiring authors from traveling further down the
15:22
Speaker 6: road to publication. This is why I've decided to produce
15:26
Speaker 6: this short, three part video series on how to make
15:30
Speaker 6: a great first impression and pitch your book as if
15:34
Speaker 6: your writing career depends on it. It's my hope that
15:38
Speaker 6: the time tested advice in practical tips on what you
15:42
Speaker 6: can do before, during, and after a life pitch session
15:46
Speaker 6: for the best possible outcome is helpful to you. Are
15:50
Speaker 6: you ready? Okay? Here we go. Tip number one. Prepare
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Speaker 6: a two or three sentence synopsis of your story. Try
16:00
Speaker 6: your best to identify the book the hook of your
16:03
Speaker 6: novel or the nonfiction book that you're writing. Remember, the
16:08
Speaker 6: hook is the element that makes a literary agent or
16:11
Speaker 6: acquisition editor say, oh my goodness, I just have to
16:16
Speaker 6: read this now. To identify your hook, think about what
16:21
Speaker 6: your story offers that is totally unique. Perhaps it's the
16:25
Speaker 6: world building you've created or your protagonist's unique struggles. Tip
16:31
Speaker 6: number two. Talk about the characters in your novel as
16:35
Speaker 6: if they are real people, and give reasons why the
16:39
Speaker 6: literary agent or the acquisition editor is going to want
16:42
Speaker 6: to meet them on the page. The more fascinating you
16:46
Speaker 6: paint them with your world's words, the more intrigued agents
16:50
Speaker 6: and editors will be. Make them care about your characters
16:54
Speaker 6: even though you haven't met them on the page. Tip
16:58
Speaker 6: number three, don't leave out the drama. Always describe the
17:04
Speaker 6: main conflict of your plot. Tip number four, don't forget
17:10
Speaker 6: to think about comp titles. Comp titles help a literary
17:14
Speaker 6: agent or acquisition editor understand what to expect from your
17:19
Speaker 6: story and the appeal it could have to target it readers.
17:23
Speaker 6: Your list of comp titles doesn't have to be as
17:26
Speaker 6: long as your grocery list one to three is enough,
17:31
Speaker 6: and they don't all have to be published books. One
17:34
Speaker 6: or two of them can be a television show or
17:38
Speaker 6: a movie. Tip number five. Okay. Other key pieces of
17:44
Speaker 6: information that you'll want to include in your page are
17:48
Speaker 6: the genre and work count of your literary work, the setting,
17:54
Speaker 6: where and when does the story take place, goal, what
17:59
Speaker 6: is the protagonist trying to achieve and why is it
18:02
Speaker 6: so important? Conflict, who or what is getting in their way?
18:09
Speaker 6: And last of all, the tone of your writing. How
18:12
Speaker 6: will the reader feel when they've read your story? Thank
18:17
Speaker 6: you so much for viewing this video, and I'll be
18:21
Speaker 6: seen you soon in Oklahoma City. Thanks, bye bye.
18:36
Speaker 3: Thank you, Letitia. Now let's talk to Laurence Smith. Laurence Smith,
18:51
Speaker 3: welcome back to the podcast.
18:53
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
18:55
Speaker 3: You were one of the first ever I remember doing
18:57
Speaker 3: this interview at the Hallway in the Hallway writer Oricon.
19:01
Speaker 3: I think you are one of the first ever interviews
19:03
Speaker 3: we had on this thing, and you've been back since.
19:05
Speaker 3: But anyway, you're back again.
19:07
Speaker 4: So a podcast favorite.
19:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go. Can I ask her the same
19:13
Speaker 3: for one piece of it? Now you'll be down to
19:15
Speaker 3: your third piece of advice. I guess but anyway, if
19:19
Speaker 3: you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
19:22
Speaker 3: it be.
19:24
Speaker 2: I think it depends on what their career plan is.
19:27
Speaker 2: So if their goal is to accomplish writing a book
19:30
Speaker 2: and finishing the book and just getting it out into
19:32
Speaker 2: the world, that's a different question I think than if
19:36
Speaker 2: a writer is trying to look toward a career. I
19:39
Speaker 2: tend to really know how to help and advice more
19:41
Speaker 2: on the career aspect. I would say, if you're just
19:43
Speaker 2: writing a book to get it out of the world,
19:44
Speaker 2: you're doing all the right things by coming to writer
19:46
Speaker 2: con and taking all the workshops. There's really no wrong
19:49
Speaker 2: answer with that kind of path. If you are pursuing
19:53
Speaker 2: any kind of publication, I think the biggest thing is
19:57
Speaker 2: figuring out what you love to read, because that's be
20:00
Speaker 2: what you love to write, and then learning to find
20:03
Speaker 2: a way to write something uniquely that still fits appropriately
20:08
Speaker 2: into the niche market that you're looking at. So I
20:11
Speaker 2: think the biggest mistake I see is that younger writers
20:13
Speaker 2: come up with a really unique idea, but it doesn't
20:16
Speaker 2: have like relatable anecdotes or tropes or things that fit
20:21
Speaker 2: in that a reader will go, oh, I recognize this
20:23
Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan from the Odyssey was recently talking about how
20:27
Speaker 2: younger generations see recognizable story patterns and things as a negative,
20:31
Speaker 2: but in truth that's actually a positive for most readers.
20:35
Speaker 2: So it's important that as a writer you need to
20:37
Speaker 2: not say I can't be like everybody else. Instead you
20:39
Speaker 2: should say, you know, I'm going to write a story
20:42
Speaker 2: that everyone will like to read because it will fit
20:45
Speaker 2: in this realm, but there will be something unique about it.
20:48
Speaker 2: And I think that's the way you need to approach
20:49
Speaker 2: your career.
20:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, good idea. Very logically argued too. So now
20:56
Speaker 3: you know, I'm going to point out that, like me,
20:59
Speaker 3: you're an attorney. So had you not decided you wanted
21:03
Speaker 3: to be a writer yet or what happened?
21:06
Speaker 2: I always knew I wanted to be a writer. The
21:08
Speaker 2: trick was, I grew up with a mother who was
21:10
Speaker 2: an accountant and wealth advisor and a father who was
21:13
Speaker 2: an attorney, And they said, it's great that you have
21:15
Speaker 2: this dream. We fully support it, but you do you
21:18
Speaker 2: have to have a day job because we will not
21:20
Speaker 2: let you, you know, live in our proverbial basement and
21:22
Speaker 2: just sort of mess around. You need to be serious
21:24
Speaker 2: about it. So you know, of course with anything artistic,
21:28
Speaker 2: that's hard because you have to have the day job,
21:31
Speaker 2: you have to have the reasonable income to support yourself
21:34
Speaker 2: while the art is in that process of you know,
21:37
Speaker 2: creation and learning your craft and then getting the craft
21:40
Speaker 2: out there. And I think that's something we don't talk
21:43
Speaker 2: freely enough with about people that are looking toward this.
21:46
Speaker 2: They think, well, I'm going to quit my day job
21:48
Speaker 2: just to write my book, and I'm like, the hard
21:50
Speaker 2: answer is you have to keep the day job and
21:52
Speaker 2: you have to actually work at night. You have to
21:55
Speaker 2: put in that extra effort that very few people will understand.
21:58
Speaker 2: I know, it's really and I hear a lot of
22:00
Speaker 2: writers say, well, my family doesn't support my writing. They
22:03
Speaker 2: don't give me the time in the space, and I'm like,
22:05
Speaker 2: you have to fight for that. You have to have
22:08
Speaker 2: conversations with your family. You have to draw boundaries, you know.
22:12
Speaker 2: Sometimes you have to learn to not work at home.
22:14
Speaker 2: A lot of people think that they should work at
22:15
Speaker 2: home when they're working on their book, and I'm like,
22:17
Speaker 2: that may be where the biggest distractions are. You might
22:19
Speaker 2: need to physically leave, especially for you know, women that
22:23
Speaker 2: have children, because children are notorious for seeking out the
22:25
Speaker 2: mom rather than the dad most often, so you know,
22:28
Speaker 2: you have to learn what those boundaries are and because
22:31
Speaker 2: you're going to have to keep that day job. And
22:33
Speaker 2: I think that was what I learned, and it took me.
22:35
Speaker 2: I think I had been published for maybe five years
22:38
Speaker 2: before I got to quit full time. But in the meantime,
22:40
Speaker 2: I had published thirty five books, and you know, fire years.
22:45
Speaker 2: You know, some of those were novella's, but it was
22:47
Speaker 2: I was constantly putting product out, I was marketing it.
22:49
Speaker 2: I was doing all of this outside work in order
22:52
Speaker 2: to establish an ability to you know, sustain myself. And
22:55
Speaker 2: I actually was very fortunate that I paid off law
22:58
Speaker 2: school debt using book money because I worked really hard
23:00
Speaker 2: and I got lucky in some parts with some books
23:02
Speaker 2: that kind of took off for a little bit and everything.
23:04
Speaker 2: But that part of that was I had the safety
23:07
Speaker 2: of the day job for a while.
23:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
23:09
Speaker 3: Sure, Well you've made up for lost time if there
23:13
Speaker 3: really was any lost time, because you've written, correct me
23:16
Speaker 3: if I'm wrong, You've written romance, romant to see cozy mysteries,
23:22
Speaker 3: Sherlock Holmes. How do you decide what to write next?
23:26
Speaker 2: Honestly, I chase whatever idea is strongest, which I don't
23:30
Speaker 2: necessarily recommend that for anyone that's looking for a career
23:33
Speaker 2: because I probably could have done better if I had
23:36
Speaker 2: stuck to one genre and really kind of honed in
23:39
Speaker 2: on that particular craft. But instead I said, well, I'm
23:42
Speaker 2: going to write, you know, historicals, and then the next thing,
23:44
Speaker 2: I'm writing dragon shifters, and then I'm off to World
23:46
Speaker 2: War two historical fiction with romantic elements, and I kind
23:49
Speaker 2: of I don't regret any of those choices, but it
23:52
Speaker 2: has made the career build slower as far as like
23:55
Speaker 2: just financial growth and readership consistency.
23:59
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, we had so much fun at the retreat
24:04
Speaker 4: this year. That's still fresh on my mind because we
24:07
Speaker 4: are not far removed from that. But what do you
24:10
Speaker 4: like best about teaching?
24:13
Speaker 2: I think the most important thing that I get from
24:16
Speaker 2: teaching is I've learned something and I've figured out the
24:21
Speaker 2: idea that the success the thing that made it work.
24:23
Speaker 2: And there's nothing better than sharing that with somebody else,
24:26
Speaker 2: because there's this intense gratification of knowing that you've gotten
24:30
Speaker 2: somebody closer to what they need. Because sometimes when writers
24:35
Speaker 2: are talking about their stories and what their story is about,
24:37
Speaker 2: and you're an outside audience, but you have knowledge of
24:40
Speaker 2: maybe what it could be to be better or what
24:42
Speaker 2: they're trying to do, but they're not quite there yet.
24:45
Speaker 2: And I think about all of the bigger authors that
24:47
Speaker 2: helped me along the way, and I remember this one author.
24:51
Speaker 2: She was a really big Regency author, and she read
24:53
Speaker 2: my very first manuscript and she said, you've got to
24:56
Speaker 2: cut chapter one. This is not the right place to
24:58
Speaker 2: start the story. And I was at the time. I
25:00
Speaker 2: was devastated. I thought, oh my god, this was like
25:01
Speaker 2: the most important scene. It set up the whole plot.
25:04
Speaker 2: And she said, you got to start a chapter two.
25:06
Speaker 2: You got to cut this whole thing. You know, they
25:08
Speaker 2: say the kill your darlings, and I always kind of
25:10
Speaker 2: hate that. But what I took from her was that
25:12
Speaker 2: someone who knew more than I did where that story
25:15
Speaker 2: should start, she was absolutely right. So the book when
25:17
Speaker 2: it actually came out, we started on chapter two. And
25:20
Speaker 2: then the funny thing was fourteen books into that series,
25:23
Speaker 2: because that was a first book in a series. Book fourteen,
25:26
Speaker 2: I did a fun like prequel novella that by the
25:29
Speaker 2: time you've read all the other books, you're comfortable with
25:31
Speaker 2: the world and so when you read that opening chapter
25:34
Speaker 2: one scene now is sort of a prequel note story.
25:37
Speaker 2: It makes sense because that all the characters were too
25:40
Speaker 2: much for an off a reader who had come into
25:42
Speaker 2: the universe and didn't know And there were five or
25:45
Speaker 2: six heroes in this one room talking about kidnapping, and
25:48
Speaker 2: there was it was just a lot of action, and
25:50
Speaker 2: you didn't know who was who and what was going on.
25:52
Speaker 2: But fourteen books in, they're intimately familiar with those you know,
25:55
Speaker 2: five and six men, and so when they get to
25:57
Speaker 2: that scene, they're like, oh, my gosh, this is how
25:59
Speaker 2: it started. This was the infamous planning meeting they always
26:01
Speaker 2: talked about but we never read, so it'd be kind
26:03
Speaker 2: of and I was able to extend it and build
26:05
Speaker 2: it out. So that lesson of listening to that older
26:08
Speaker 2: author eventually created an actual opportunity to earn money later
26:12
Speaker 2: as this additional story kind of thing for my bigger series,
26:16
Speaker 2: which was really rewarding, and I thought, come full circle
26:18
Speaker 2: six years later, you know.
26:20
Speaker 4: And there it is.
26:21
Speaker 1: I agree.
26:22
Speaker 4: I love when somebody is trying to figure something out
26:25
Speaker 4: or has a question about something, and I can step
26:27
Speaker 4: in and give them some good solid advice and in
26:32
Speaker 4: some cases try to steer them away from something that
26:35
Speaker 4: I think might be harmful. Yeah, we've had some people
26:39
Speaker 4: come and share horror stories about some advice or some
26:45
Speaker 4: things that they've tried that just didn't go well. So
26:48
Speaker 4: it's always nice to be able to catch somebody before
26:51
Speaker 4: and then if someone chooses to do that, even after
26:54
Speaker 4: they've been given all the information, at least they had
26:58
Speaker 4: all the information and made an informed choice.
27:01
Speaker 1: Yes.
27:02
Speaker 2: Well, and I think the benefit of the writer con
27:04
Speaker 2: retreat that you know, you and I figured out, Laura,
27:07
Speaker 2: was that when we listen to them talk about their stories,
27:10
Speaker 2: you know the danger they get bad advice from other places.
27:14
Speaker 2: And yes, and it's so important for writers to be
27:16
Speaker 2: able to go to a conference or a retreat where
27:19
Speaker 2: they have trusted people listening. And you both are very
27:24
Speaker 2: very trustable opinions. So I think that's the benefit of
27:28
Speaker 2: going to that retreat. And what I enjoy so much
27:30
Speaker 2: is that when I watched you guys mentor you know,
27:33
Speaker 2: those other authors, they're getting the best advice because I'm
27:35
Speaker 2: sitting there going Yes, I would say the same thing.
27:37
Speaker 2: I agree with that this is the way the story
27:39
Speaker 2: should go, and it's going to be so much better
27:41
Speaker 2: this way, and it'll do what they want for the
27:43
Speaker 2: you know, for the readers, And it's rewarding to kind
27:45
Speaker 2: of see that back.
27:46
Speaker 4: And hole and I say, and sometimes just from a
27:49
Speaker 4: business aspect or marketing whatever, I'm like, learn from what
27:52
Speaker 4: I didn't do well initially, Like learn from my mistakes
27:57
Speaker 4: so that you can start at a better place.
28:00
Speaker 2: Exactly while we were there.
28:02
Speaker 4: I know I've heard you talk about having an agent.
28:04
Speaker 4: Do you still have an agent?
28:07
Speaker 2: I do still have an agent. I kind of have
28:10
Speaker 2: a joke about horror stories with agents. When I was
28:14
Speaker 2: young in the career, I got my very first agent
28:19
Speaker 2: through the traditional query process and I had three agents
28:21
Speaker 2: that I ended up interviewing, and I went with the
28:25
Speaker 2: youngest agent, who the first one who basically made the
28:28
Speaker 2: offer for representation because I was told that lean agents,
28:32
Speaker 2: that young hungry agents. They are out there fighting for
28:35
Speaker 2: deals and that kind of thing, which is true. But
28:38
Speaker 2: what I did learn in that respect was that they
28:40
Speaker 2: don't always have the power to get you where you
28:43
Speaker 2: need to be. And I think that is the part
28:46
Speaker 2: that can hurt you the most is that, yeah, they're
28:48
Speaker 2: really excited about your story and they really love it,
28:50
Speaker 2: but no one's going to take their phone call, no
28:52
Speaker 2: one's going to read their email. It's going to get
28:54
Speaker 2: put deeper in the slush pile than you imagined. And
28:57
Speaker 2: that was really, really difficult. And then my second lesson
29:00
Speaker 2: that I learned when I she eventually quit the business
29:03
Speaker 2: because of personal relief reasons and left the business. Funnily enough,
29:07
Speaker 2: she's since come back. It's it's very hysterical in some
29:10
Speaker 2: ways because she's working with my second agent and I'm
29:12
Speaker 2: now on my third agent, but my second agent. This
29:15
Speaker 2: is the other lesson that I learned that was really
29:17
Speaker 2: important is that if a fellow writer says I heard
29:20
Speaker 2: about this great agent, if they are not represented by
29:24
Speaker 2: that agent, do not you know, just go off of
29:28
Speaker 2: that recommendation. So I had a friend, an author friend
29:30
Speaker 2: that came to me and she said, my big agency
29:33
Speaker 2: has a baby agent that's made a lot of deals.
29:35
Speaker 2: She's really really great, and I thought that sounds wonderful.
29:38
Speaker 2: Let me talk to her. Well, what I didn't understand
29:41
Speaker 2: at the time, you know, you learn, you know, as
29:43
Speaker 2: my mom says, you pay tuition on these lessons in life.
29:46
Speaker 2: And the coffee lesson was that I know, right, just
29:49
Speaker 2: paid tuition. It's very explicit, and she this, this younger
29:53
Speaker 2: agent had all the deals that had been broken under
29:56
Speaker 2: her name had come about by authors sort of making
29:59
Speaker 2: the opportunit unities for themselves, and then the agent got
30:03
Speaker 2: to sign on the dotted line. And there was not
30:04
Speaker 2: a lot of negotiating. There was not a lot of
30:07
Speaker 2: rights arguing, or you know, in other words, that the
30:10
Speaker 2: contracts weren't negotiated properly. My interests weren't represented. She didn't
30:15
Speaker 2: try to. When I asked her, could you keep audio rights?
30:18
Speaker 2: She flat out said, you'll never sell audio. You'll never
30:20
Speaker 2: be that big. And you shouldn't have an agent saying
30:23
Speaker 2: that to you. Because when I really being two months
30:25
Speaker 2: into my first book coming out, Tantor Camp pounding on
30:28
Speaker 2: the door of my publisher buying the rights, and of
30:30
Speaker 2: course I only get twenty five percent of that, you know,
30:32
Speaker 2: for the next seven years, and my agent gets fifteen
30:34
Speaker 2: percent for telling me that audio, So you know the
30:38
Speaker 2: irony of that. And I think the other thing about
30:41
Speaker 2: that second agent that was difficult was, you know, you
30:44
Speaker 2: have to talk to authors who are represented by that
30:46
Speaker 2: agent and just reach out and say, hey, I see
30:48
Speaker 2: that you're rep by this agent. I would love to
30:51
Speaker 2: know your experiences with that agent. Has she sold has
30:54
Speaker 2: she or he sold any books for you? And how
30:57
Speaker 2: did that experience go, because you know what what happened
31:00
Speaker 2: was I got with an agent that hadn't successfully sold anything,
31:04
Speaker 2: and I was listening to somebody tell me she was great,
31:06
Speaker 2: but that author was never represented by that agent, so
31:10
Speaker 2: she didn't actually have any practical experience with that agent
31:13
Speaker 2: to tell me. So that was a big learning curve.
31:15
Speaker 2: And then by the time I got to my third agent,
31:17
Speaker 2: she was a younger agent, but she has since moved
31:20
Speaker 2: up in the world. And at that point, I thought,
31:22
Speaker 2: I just need somebody that I feel I can trust,
31:24
Speaker 2: who will work for me and get things done that
31:26
Speaker 2: I need because I was no longer all that interested
31:29
Speaker 2: in traditional pursuits for bigger publishers. I had been there
31:32
Speaker 2: on that on my own, and I was coming back
31:35
Speaker 2: to the indie fold and self publishing. But we still
31:37
Speaker 2: had subsidiary rights that I really wanted to pursue, foreign rights,
31:40
Speaker 2: and I had constant audiobook deals coming in the door,
31:43
Speaker 2: and we still do. And so my agent still currently
31:46
Speaker 2: negotiates all of that and whenever I see opportunities you know,
31:49
Speaker 2: in like Jane Friedman's The Hot Sheet newsletter and stuff.
31:52
Speaker 2: I will email my agent say what do you know
31:53
Speaker 2: about this? Is this something we should look at?
31:55
Speaker 4: You know?
31:56
Speaker 2: Or I've heard about this app? Should we sell? You know?
31:58
Speaker 2: And so it's nice to have somebody that I kind
32:00
Speaker 2: of trust to bounce ideas off of. And she still does,
32:03
Speaker 2: you know, act fully as my agent and help me
32:05
Speaker 2: with anything that I'm interested in. We're just at the
32:07
Speaker 2: moment not shopping anything.
32:09
Speaker 4: Well, that really highlights what we talk about a lot.
32:12
Speaker 4: As an author, you have to protect yourself and like
32:15
Speaker 4: you're saying, those are some hard lessons that we learn
32:18
Speaker 4: along the way because it is so exciting when someone
32:22
Speaker 4: finally says yes and wants to represent your work. It's
32:25
Speaker 4: so difficult to put that excitement aside and be thinking clearly,
32:31
Speaker 4: which I.
32:32
Speaker 7: Think is probably why I've also heard you intel writers
32:35
Speaker 7: be sure to get a lawyer before signing anything. Is
32:41
Speaker 7: that still true for you even with your agent? Is
32:43
Speaker 7: that something like how do you balance that? Yeah, you're
32:47
Speaker 7: even an attorney yourself. I have to point out.
32:50
Speaker 2: And the thing that I whenever I give my contracts workshops,
32:54
Speaker 2: you know, at various conferences. I've always said, you know,
32:56
Speaker 2: the biggest mistake is even lawyers shouldn't represent themselves because
33:00
Speaker 2: it's like we're talking about you get so excited, you're
33:02
Speaker 2: so emotionally invested. Even the smartest people in the room
33:06
Speaker 2: are blinded when it comes to something that they've really
33:08
Speaker 2: wanted being held out right in front of them. So
33:10
Speaker 2: a bigwork house comes to you and says, we want
33:13
Speaker 2: to give you the moon, but there's conditions in the
33:15
Speaker 2: fine print, but you're like, I really don't care. I
33:17
Speaker 2: want the moon.
33:18
Speaker 3: Yeah.
33:18
Speaker 2: And so it's really really important. And what people don't
33:21
Speaker 2: understand about agents, and this is not a negative comment
33:25
Speaker 2: on agents, it's just a statement of fact, is that
33:28
Speaker 2: agents have a financial stake in what you do going forward.
33:32
Speaker 2: So if they sell your book, they're getting fifteen percent
33:35
Speaker 2: of everything you make going forward. So it's in their
33:39
Speaker 2: interest to have you sign that contract because they want
33:43
Speaker 2: to be able to have the profit off of you.
33:45
Speaker 2: Now that doesn't make them evil, but a good agent
33:49
Speaker 2: will look at you, look at the contract, look at
33:51
Speaker 2: the possibilities of the book, and go, I think we
33:54
Speaker 2: can get more out of this deal, or I think
33:55
Speaker 2: we can get some rights back and sell it and
33:57
Speaker 2: make better instead instead of letting the publisher have the
34:00
Speaker 2: audiobook rights, we wouldn't be able to go and sell
34:03
Speaker 2: it to an outside licensing company, you know, like Tantor
34:06
Speaker 2: Media Recorded Books, Blackstone, something like that, and we're going
34:09
Speaker 2: to get an advance for you, whereas if your publisher
34:11
Speaker 2: produces the audio for you, you're just going to have
34:13
Speaker 2: to sit and wait for royalties to come in and
34:16
Speaker 2: when that book audiobook sells. So a smart agent, and
34:20
Speaker 2: those are the more seasoned agents, the ones that have
34:22
Speaker 2: been around longer, who have more bargaining power. They're more
34:25
Speaker 2: confident in walking into a room and looking at your
34:27
Speaker 2: contract and going no, no, no, no, we got we
34:29
Speaker 2: gotta tweak this a little bit. They can need to
34:31
Speaker 2: keep foreign rights, they need to keep other subsidiary rights.
34:34
Speaker 2: This author has potential and we're going to keep that.
34:37
Speaker 2: You don't get to, you know, tell the publisher you
34:38
Speaker 2: don't get to have that. And so I think if
34:41
Speaker 2: you're you know, with a new agent, and the agent
34:44
Speaker 2: doesn't have a lot of deals under their belt, even
34:46
Speaker 2: if they do, and you don't feel totally comfortable with
34:48
Speaker 2: their thing, you can absolutely go to an intellectual property attorney.
34:53
Speaker 2: And that's the key. Don't go to a car chasing attorney,
34:55
Speaker 2: don't go to a tour you know, don't go to
34:58
Speaker 2: a guy that does wills and the States trust, you know,
35:00
Speaker 2: you want somebody that understands copyrights. So if they're like
35:04
Speaker 2: all about patents, you know, don't go to a patent lawyer.
35:07
Speaker 2: You want someone who knows contracts, but specifically author contracts,
35:11
Speaker 2: you know, intellectual property contracts, because they're going to know
35:13
Speaker 2: the ins and outs of what's going to protect you,
35:17
Speaker 2: what's going to help you, things you should be concerned about,
35:19
Speaker 2: because you know, publishers will put boilerplate language in there
35:22
Speaker 2: that can be very very harmful to you, and it's
35:25
Speaker 2: always going to be beneficial to them, right, and they
35:27
Speaker 2: don't really care that they're hurting you because they're the
35:29
Speaker 2: big publisher. So if you pay an attorney, it's a
35:33
Speaker 2: one time hourly fee. Typically they'll say it'll take me
35:36
Speaker 2: one hour to look this over and write up some
35:38
Speaker 2: notes of what you should look for and have your
35:40
Speaker 2: agent fix in the contract. And they're not having a
35:42
Speaker 2: continued financial stake and that's the difference. So yeah, it
35:46
Speaker 2: might be three or four hundred dollars up front for
35:48
Speaker 2: that one hour, but you may potentially save yourself thousands
35:51
Speaker 2: of dollars on the back end when that book starts
35:53
Speaker 2: to earn out if you've negotiated it safely.
35:56
Speaker 4: Gosh, that is some fantastic advice. Well, okay, we've talked
36:01
Speaker 4: a lot about kind of the business aspect. Let's bring
36:03
Speaker 4: it back to writing a little bit. Would you share
36:07
Speaker 4: with us what your writing day looks like?
36:10
Speaker 2: Sure, so it's evolved over the years. I think that's
36:14
Speaker 2: an important thing, is that as your life changes, your
36:16
Speaker 2: writing routine, your writing habits may have to evolve or
36:20
Speaker 2: change with you. And I know that when I was,
36:22
Speaker 2: you know, ten to fift. You know, when I was
36:24
Speaker 2: first starting about ten years ago, because I've been writing
36:27
Speaker 2: for about or publishing for about twelve, I had a
36:30
Speaker 2: very different writing schedule. And now it's shifted because I
36:33
Speaker 2: have more life responsibilities with aging parents and an elderly
36:37
Speaker 2: dog that I want to, you know, maximize my time
36:40
Speaker 2: with absolutely. So, yeah, so I tend to write better
36:43
Speaker 2: in the morning. So I try to prioritize at least
36:46
Speaker 2: starting to write or edit or do something in that
36:49
Speaker 2: the writing world between ten and two and then at
36:53
Speaker 2: two o'clock, I say, okay, it's time for a break.
36:55
Speaker 2: I've been sitting you know, I need to get up
36:56
Speaker 2: and move around, So I'll come home, fuld laundry, spend
36:59
Speaker 2: time with my dog, check on the parents, you know,
37:02
Speaker 2: kind of do stuff around the house, and have a
37:04
Speaker 2: little bit of break before I come back in the evening.
37:06
Speaker 2: You know, usually after dinner, I might do two or
37:08
Speaker 2: three hours of administrative work, which is again back on
37:11
Speaker 2: the computer, but it's not the fun stuff. So I
37:14
Speaker 2: leave my where my date, where my brain is strongest
37:17
Speaker 2: and my focus is brightest and clearest. That's the writing time,
37:21
Speaker 2: the editing time, you know, the stuff that's creative. And
37:24
Speaker 2: then when I'm tired, that's when I can check emails.
37:26
Speaker 2: That's when I can look at sales reports, that kind
37:28
Speaker 2: of stuff.
37:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's smart. It's not what I do, but it's smart.
37:32
Speaker 4: I mentioned you said at two o'clock it's time for
37:35
Speaker 4: a break, and you go back home. So it sounds
37:38
Speaker 4: to me like you are a person who goes outside
37:42
Speaker 4: of the house to write, like you mentioned.
37:44
Speaker 8: Yes, yeah, I love coffee shops, restaurants, anywhere. Basically I
37:49
Speaker 8: found out that if the house is quiet, I'll want
37:53
Speaker 8: to take a nap. And so if I get out
37:54
Speaker 8: and I'm around people that are energized and active, you know,
37:58
Speaker 8: or people, I find it even if I have my
38:00
Speaker 8: headphones on I'm listening to you, you know, my playlist,
38:04
Speaker 8: just having that energy where I'm like, nobody needs me,
38:07
Speaker 8: but I feel the energy that I'm a Pisces, so
38:09
Speaker 8: you know, energy is everything. And so as much as
38:12
Speaker 8: astrology might be real or not real, I feel very
38:14
Speaker 8: much like the energy thing is very true about Piscey's babies.
38:17
Speaker 2: So I really like to be in an environment where
38:19
Speaker 2: I'm picking up on positive, excited energy, so coffee shops, restaurants,
38:23
Speaker 2: things that are happening, nothing quiet, nothing studious, because then
38:27
Speaker 2: I'll just be like, oh, this is really calm. I
38:29
Speaker 2: can take a nap.
38:30
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I would have to have headphones as well.
38:34
Speaker 4: What I find when I'm in an environment like that
38:37
Speaker 4: is that inevitably people come over and talk to me,
38:40
Speaker 4: and that's very distracting. It's not really to a work environment.
38:44
Speaker 4: So maybe if I.
38:46
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think, I've only had a handful of
38:48
Speaker 2: people come over and then they'll say, what are you studying?
38:50
Speaker 2: Because I'm I can't write all my books. Well, I
38:53
Speaker 2: usually a big fat notebook out and I'm scribbling furiously away,
38:56
Speaker 2: and so I will turn and say, I'm actually not
38:58
Speaker 2: in I'm not studying any thing. I'm writing a novel.
39:01
Speaker 2: And then of course there's always questions.
39:02
Speaker 4: I want to hear all about it, but maybe not
39:05
Speaker 4: even listening to anything. But maybe if I just had
39:07
Speaker 4: my headphones on, that would be enough to communicate that
39:10
Speaker 4: I don't want to hear it. Yeah, yes, are you
39:12
Speaker 4: a teacher? Are you of this? Are you that you
39:15
Speaker 4: look very busy? I am very busy. Please.
39:19
Speaker 2: I want to turn that into a marketing opportunity, especially
39:21
Speaker 2: if it's a woman that asked me, and I'll usually
39:22
Speaker 2: be like, here's a romance card, and I have a
39:24
Speaker 2: very coost part in my person art just came out smart.
39:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, now I'm going to take you from
39:31
Speaker 3: the profound to the completely trivial with the I think
39:36
Speaker 3: I'm going to start calling these the phantom zone questions.
39:39
Speaker 3: I don't know, I give it a new name every
39:40
Speaker 3: single episode.
39:41
Speaker 4: I noticed that, but I didn't say anything.
39:44
Speaker 3: But they're kind of shapeless void. No, I don't know,
39:49
Speaker 3: but I'll come up with something someday. So before Warren,
39:53
Speaker 3: these are kind of off the wall. Okay, Lauren, If
39:56
Speaker 3: you could steal something from any library or museum in
40:00
Speaker 3: the world, what would it be.
40:05
Speaker 2: Oh, that is a good question, because I'm trying to think.
40:07
Speaker 2: I've seen so many interesting objects in museums, and I'm thinking,
40:12
Speaker 2: what would I want to steal. I want to say
40:15
Speaker 2: maybe jewelry. I'd probably go with like a Marie Antoinette necklace,
40:19
Speaker 2: just because when somebody inevitably asks me about it, I'm like,
40:26
Speaker 2: picked it up at the loom.
40:28
Speaker 3: You know, you would be popular at parties.
40:33
Speaker 4: Here's my card, read my books.
40:36
Speaker 3: Here's another one. What writer would you most like to
40:39
Speaker 3: sit down and have dinner with? Living or dead? You
40:42
Speaker 3: can pick anybody.
40:44
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I think Joanna Lindsay. She died a couple
40:47
Speaker 2: of years ago. She was an incredible romance writer. But
40:50
Speaker 2: her books were so funny, and I just thought, I
40:55
Speaker 2: think she would be really funny in person to just
40:57
Speaker 2: sit down and have a dinner with. I think she'd
40:59
Speaker 2: just be laughing and telling funny stories, and I think
41:02
Speaker 2: I would just really enjoy that experience. I'll never forget
41:05
Speaker 2: one of her books. I was listening to on audio
41:07
Speaker 2: in the airport, and I don't normally listen to books
41:09
Speaker 2: in the airport because I'm trying to focus and be
41:11
Speaker 2: aware of my surroundings. And I was like busting a
41:14
Speaker 2: gut laughing, and I usually try to like not be
41:16
Speaker 2: that person that's like interacting with their media in public.
41:19
Speaker 2: But the scene was a young It was an old
41:22
Speaker 2: Western book, and a young woman was dressed up as
41:25
Speaker 2: a boy because she had shot this guy in another
41:27
Speaker 2: town because he had tried to, you know, get his
41:29
Speaker 2: hands on her, and she thought she killed him. She hadn't,
41:32
Speaker 2: but she didn't know that. So she's on the run
41:34
Speaker 2: as this boy and this you know sheriff has come
41:37
Speaker 2: through the town and he sees her and he is
41:40
Speaker 2: trying to talk to her about something else, but she's
41:42
Speaker 2: convinced he's figured out she's allegedly killed this guy. So
41:45
Speaker 2: she's running down this mountain side and she's stripping and
41:48
Speaker 2: he's every time he's almost putting her, he's grabbing a
41:51
Speaker 2: piece of her clothes and she's just literally twirling and
41:53
Speaker 2: clothes are flying off, and he's just like stops astound
41:56
Speaker 2: in and throws the clothes and then keeps running after her,
41:59
Speaker 2: and I mean, I was just laughing so hard, and
42:01
Speaker 2: I thought I would love to meet this woman because
42:03
Speaker 2: all of her books are like that, they're just fun.
42:07
Speaker 3: Okay, this one's kind of time related as well. If
42:10
Speaker 3: you could jump into a time machine and do anything,
42:15
Speaker 3: change anything, what would you do?
42:17
Speaker 2: Oh, this is a this is a deep dark answer.
42:21
Speaker 2: I would probably go back if exerience about it. If
42:26
Speaker 2: I really want to answer truthfully, I would go back
42:28
Speaker 2: in time to when patriarchal religions were first going to form,
42:31
Speaker 2: and I would stomp them into the grave and protect
42:34
Speaker 2: matriarchy at all costs. That's probably what I would do.
42:37
Speaker 3: And that would be like something BCE.
42:40
Speaker 2: Or definitely so all the way back to Judaism and
42:45
Speaker 2: you know a couple of other religions. We would be
42:47
Speaker 2: nicking him in the grave. We're gonna stick with you know.
42:50
Speaker 3: Don't you think something else would arise similar later though?
42:54
Speaker 3: I mean it seems to be kind of a universally
42:57
Speaker 3: recurring idea.
42:58
Speaker 2: Well, I think I would have to hammer home the
43:00
Speaker 2: message that you don't mess with women rulers, and that
43:04
Speaker 2: would be how I would deliver that message.
43:06
Speaker 3: So you're not being anti religion you're just trying to
43:09
Speaker 3: get it off the patriarchy.
43:11
Speaker 2: Exactly because I don't think it has served us well well.
43:15
Speaker 4: Okay, And and really make sure they understand like we
43:19
Speaker 4: mean it when we say be good to each other,
43:22
Speaker 4: like be nice, just be nice.
43:23
Speaker 2: I think that's the biggest misconception about matriarchy is that
43:27
Speaker 2: a lot of men have the conception that men that
43:30
Speaker 2: are misinformed because they don't know about this, right, they
43:32
Speaker 2: think that matriarchy means men are nothing, that they're at
43:36
Speaker 2: the bottom of irun Well, patriarchy is a hierarchy, but
43:40
Speaker 2: matriarchy is a circle. So matriarchy protects everyone at an
43:44
Speaker 2: equal level, with a slight emphasis on children, just a
43:47
Speaker 2: little bit above everybody else. But men and women in
43:49
Speaker 2: that matriarchy, you're equal, and that's the difference. And I
43:52
Speaker 2: think you get lost when you're competing for things. We
43:56
Speaker 2: destroy and we hurt each other when somebody has to
43:58
Speaker 2: get to the top. I was having a conversation with
44:01
Speaker 2: a female, a fellow romance author of mine, and we
44:04
Speaker 2: were talking about why authors don't want to talk about
44:06
Speaker 2: how much money they make, why they don't want to
44:08
Speaker 2: talk about what's what they've done to be successful. When
44:11
Speaker 2: they've gotten to this certain level, they kind of button
44:13
Speaker 2: down and stopped talking. And it goes back to this
44:15
Speaker 2: hierarchical pressure where we've been taught by a capitalistic society
44:18
Speaker 2: that if you're successful to stay on top of the
44:22
Speaker 2: ladder and keep everybody else down. You cannot share your
44:24
Speaker 2: secrets and you don't tell anybody because how much money
44:27
Speaker 2: your books make is your only success. Well that's very
44:29
Speaker 2: much not true. We've seen that very bad books have
44:32
Speaker 2: sold a lot and very great books have sold very little.
44:35
Speaker 2: So how good your book is, it's not really a
44:37
Speaker 2: measure of success to look at royalties or success or
44:40
Speaker 2: sales numbers or something like that. So in other words,
44:42
Speaker 2: you know, romance writers tend to be a little better
44:45
Speaker 2: about this than most genres because I think we're primarily women, right,
44:49
Speaker 2: We share more, we talk more, we say what worked
44:51
Speaker 2: for you. So we were at as signing this weekend
44:52
Speaker 2: and I was talking to this younger author next to
44:54
Speaker 2: me who sold about the same number of books that
44:57
Speaker 2: I did, but I have three times her back list.
44:59
Speaker 2: And I was like, like, what were you doing over
45:01
Speaker 2: there at your table because you were moving books, and
45:04
Speaker 2: she said, well, I have a sales background, and I
45:06
Speaker 2: have a designed a one sentence pitch for every book
45:08
Speaker 2: that it's at my table, and I said, walk me
45:10
Speaker 2: through it. Tell me your process. And then she said,
45:12
Speaker 2: I noticed you had art and special editions. How did
45:16
Speaker 2: you decide to do that? What kind of stuff did
45:17
Speaker 2: you do to make these special editions? And so I
45:20
Speaker 2: talked to her about I work on bookshelf aesthetics. I
45:22
Speaker 2: create special editions with covers that have removable dust jackets,
45:26
Speaker 2: that have front art that has no text, so you
45:28
Speaker 2: can if it's like a haunted castle, you can put
45:30
Speaker 2: this haunted castle book facing outward and it will be
45:33
Speaker 2: part of your spooky book aesthetic. And so she was
45:36
Speaker 2: fascinated with my artistic approach to catching reader's attention, while
45:39
Speaker 2: she had more of a sales approach for how I'm
45:41
Speaker 2: going to pitch this verbally. So we were communicating together,
45:45
Speaker 2: and I think that that was a really powerful statement
45:47
Speaker 2: about like, you know, all genres, all authors, you know,
45:49
Speaker 2: we should try to do more of that, more like
45:51
Speaker 2: share what works, because we're fighting the big man. We're
45:53
Speaker 2: fighting the big Amazon, the big you know machines that
45:56
Speaker 2: are cutting our royalties more and more every year, and
45:59
Speaker 2: it's like we need to keep sharing on how to
46:02
Speaker 2: get smarter, how to get better, because a rising tide
46:04
Speaker 2: lifts all boats, you know. Yes, oh, I.
46:07
Speaker 4: Can get behind that.
46:08
Speaker 3: That's a great way to go out too. But Lauren,
46:10
Speaker 3: we're going to see you at Writer con Wright. Yes, yay,
46:15
Speaker 3: And that's as we record this, not very long away,
46:18
Speaker 3: so you're not only teaching, you're doing a masterclass. Right.
46:23
Speaker 3: That one has been very popular, by the way, and
46:26
Speaker 3: it's about popular fiction, right yes.
46:29
Speaker 2: So in other words, when you think about whatever you
46:32
Speaker 2: want to write, you want it to appeal to a
46:34
Speaker 2: large audience. And I think we've been you know, the
46:36
Speaker 2: literary community can kind of tell you that popular fiction
46:39
Speaker 2: doesn't really matter that much, that it's not very important,
46:41
Speaker 2: that it's low class. But actually popular fiction is where
46:44
Speaker 2: it's at. It's where the stories we want to read,
46:46
Speaker 2: and reading should be a pleasure, you know. I think
46:49
Speaker 2: we want to I want to bring back that reading
46:51
Speaker 2: is fun. Read what you love. You don't have to
46:53
Speaker 2: read MPR's Best one hundred Books of the Universe, forget that.
46:56
Speaker 2: If you want to read, you know, a monster smut
46:58
Speaker 2: or if you want to read Mystery through in Space,
47:00
Speaker 2: you know, read what you love and so writing you
47:03
Speaker 2: know this class about writing popular fiction, it's about what
47:06
Speaker 2: are those different genres, how do we approach them? And
47:08
Speaker 2: then what do all those genres have in common? That
47:11
Speaker 2: for readers you can understand how readers think, so when
47:14
Speaker 2: you write, you'll know what keystone plot elements or character
47:19
Speaker 2: approaches or story arcs that have to be in there
47:22
Speaker 2: for a satisfying conclusion, so that those books will continue
47:25
Speaker 2: to inspire readers to come back to you over and
47:27
Speaker 2: over again.
47:29
Speaker 3: Only at writer Con people so one more ring and
47:33
Speaker 3: they're like ninety nine other classes too, So come on
47:36
Speaker 3: out and join us this year. Lauren, thanks for being on.
47:40
Speaker 2: The podcast, Thanks for having me.
47:42
Speaker 3: Bye bye. Now just one parting word is even worth saying.
47:58
Speaker 3: At this point in time, writer Con is barely a
48:02
Speaker 3: heart beat away, but you still have time to sign
48:06
Speaker 3: up and be a part of it. It's in Oklahoma
48:08
Speaker 3: City Labor Day weekend, September fourth through seventh, at the
48:12
Speaker 3: historic Scurvin Hilton Hotel. Laura and I will be there,
48:16
Speaker 3: Jesse will be there, Lauren Smith will be there, Letitia
48:20
Speaker 3: Gomez and like sixty other people will be speaking, writers, agents, publishers, people,
48:26
Speaker 3: throughout the publishing industry. What can I do at this point?
48:30
Speaker 3: Beg cajole threatened to send Jesse to your house with
48:35
Speaker 3: that airhorn he uses.
48:36
Speaker 1: Onto a corner.
48:39
Speaker 3: Be where the cool kids are going to be this
48:41
Speaker 3: Labor Day weekend at writer Con. That's where you'll be,
48:44
Speaker 3: right Laura.
48:46
Speaker 4: Yes, what can we do to lure and entice you?
48:48
Speaker 4: I like to use my softer touch rather than cajoling
48:54
Speaker 4: you into works on me.
48:56
Speaker 3: Jesse, You're going to be there.
48:57
Speaker 1: You'll see me running in and out of rooms the
48:59
Speaker 1: beginning of sessions, starting.
49:01
Speaker 3: To make sure the trains run on Time's great? All right, everybody,
49:06
Speaker 3: think about it, and until next time, keep writing, and
49:11
Speaker 3: remember you cannot fail if you refuse to quit. See
49:15
Speaker 3: you next time,