Latest / Core Memory / Fly Another Day: The Daring, Thrilling, and Misguided Life of a Test Pilot

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Fly Another Day: The Daring, Thrilling, and Misguided Life of a Test Pilot · Core Memory

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Mojave has been and will always be at the heart of Flight Test.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Not just Mojave, but this valley, right?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just historically, it's the place to be.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: However,
• 0:14
  the two things about this most recent revolution or series of
• 0:17
  revolutions within
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: aerospace that are significant is that number one,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: the vehicles have gotten a lot smaller.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And number two,
• 0:24
  that startup culture and the availability of startup cash has
• 0:27
  allowed you to think
• 0:29
  about starting your own company rather than being forced to go
• 0:31
  to the experts and
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: ask them to build you a thing.
• 0:47
  all right if you have been on the Substack or the youtube this
• 0:52
  week you have noticed
• 0:53
  it is the mojave week for core memory we've been exploring all
• 0:57
  things aerospace and
• 1:00
  today's show fits right in we've got elliot segwin he is a test
• 1:04
  pilot who lives out
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: in the mojave he's a
• 1:08
  come to being a test pilot in a really unusual way he's an
• 1:11
  unusual character he's
• 1:12
  just a great dude that i always hang out with when i'm when i'm
• 1:15
  in the mojave and i
• 1:17
  think you're gonna love this episode as ever please go find
• 1:22
  core memory wherever
• 1:23
  you like to get your podcasts and i hope you enjoy the show
• 1:30
  we're here at the
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: special
• 1:32
  moment in mojave with a special man elliot segwin we've known
• 1:37
  each other for a few
• 1:38
  years now getting near 10 years i bet yeah and i think i had
• 1:44
  been told of the
• 1:45
  legend of you you know from from friends i think i would do
• 1:49
  what i usually do which
• 1:50
  is i'm going somewhere and i ask my friends who's interesting
• 1:54
  in the place i'm
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: going and i know we're
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure I was coming down here for a story,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: and people kept pointing me in your direction,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: and it turned out it was true.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: You are a very interesting man.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you had to begin by just telling people what your job,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: your life is,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: how would you describe it?
• 2:17
  Uh,
• 2:18
  yeah,
• 2:18
  I mean,
• 2:18
  uh,
• 2:19
  test pilot,
• 2:20
  uh,
• 2:21
  on my best day,
• 2:21
  that's what I'd like to call myself.
• 2:23
  But,
• 2:23
  um,
• 2:25
  uh,
• 2:25
  test pilot can mean a lot of different things in a lot of
• 2:26
  different communities.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: in my case,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: coming from the engineering ranks,
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: coming from,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Reno air racing and performance testing,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: power plant testing.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: it's a different background than say like the movie,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Top Gun where he's coming from military background.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 2:42
  the old joke is what is test pilot school or why is test pilot
• 2:45
  school so expensive?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 2:47
  In most cases,
• 2:48
  you're taking a fighter pilot and you're teaching them engineering.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And guys like me,
• 2:53
  you're taking someone who's been designing and building systems
• 2:56
  and you're teaching them,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 2:57
  making sure they're ready for the flying portion because they
• 3:00
  know how to test the system.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: They understand that part of the flight,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: but you're making sure they're qualified for the rest of it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's been my path.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: so I always tell people you're a test pilot,
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: and you were just describing,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: this different,
• 3:13
  how many people are like you versus the traditional vision of a
• 3:18
  test pilot?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's lower than 101.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, lower.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So in the United States,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: we don't have a test pilot rating,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: like everything,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: it's a good thing and a bad thing.
• 3:29
  When we met,
• 3:30
  you know,
• 3:30
  when I was trying to get into the industry,
• 3:31
  it's a great thing,
• 3:32
  right?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because it means I can just...
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: charge way less and take way more risk, and I get to do cool stuff.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: As you get later in your career,
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  it becomes now you have to deal with all those whippersnappers
• 3:42
  that show up.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: But because there is not a rating for it,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: it becomes,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: how do you make yourself stand out in that market?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: So a guy that's grown up in F-16s,
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: he just has to show the picture of him sitting in front of F-16s.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: They all kind of look the same.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's a look.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's a look.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I would argue that the way they fly is different.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: But the other side for a guy like me,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: it's really about just leveraging what I can bring to the table,
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: what I could bring to the table back then,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: which was I was willing to build stuff.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I knew how to build stuff.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: I knew how to design stuff.
• 4:15
  And so I'd be willing to do that in exchange for the
• 4:17
  opportunity to fly on the
• 4:18
  backside so we could fill in the resume and start to put the
• 4:21
  big pieces together.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: How many test pilot jobs would there even be?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's the other side of it, right?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, it comes down to what your definition of test pilot is.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: But the Society of Experimental Test Pilots,
• 4:37
  which is what is the only way to determine what a test pilot is
• 4:39
  in the United
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: States because there's no rating,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: there's roughly like 2,000 members,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: something like that.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 4:47
  but that goes all the way from like beginning guys that aren't
• 4:49
  really doing a whole
• 4:50
  lot to like late career guys that are sort of in a more
• 4:52
  administrative role.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: and you know,
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: probably that many sort of full-time guys,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: there's lots of different kinds of flying.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the kinds of flying that I'm typically attracted to,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: you're talking about,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: tens of guys in the country.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's very, very competitive, um, and has been for a long time.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it seems brutal.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then in you,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Some of these test pilot campaigns can go on for a while.
• 5:18
  And so the idea is you get attached to a craft and hopefully
• 5:22
  you can,
• 5:23
  this is an ongoing thing.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't have to hop from job to job to job all the time.
• 5:28
  Yeah,
• 5:29
  the joke is that the pilot is the only part of the aircraft
• 5:32
  that self-installs.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So test pilots become very replaceable.
• 5:37
  The other side is that the person that's making the decision
• 5:39
  about what makes a
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: good test pilot today typically is pretty far away from the hardware.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're typically talking about a manager level, HR guy, whatever.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so they don't,
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:47
  making sure that that person understands why you're valuable
• 5:50
  can sometimes be a challenge.
• 5:51
  The last piece is that test pilot in general is a quality
• 5:55
  control function,
• 5:55
  right?
• 5:56
  Like,
• 5:56
  you know,
• 5:56
  you as the engineer come in and you lay your design on the table.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a solution, right?
• 6:00
  And then that person builds that thing and they lay that on the table,
• 6:03
  right?
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  And it's test pilot's job either to say,
• 6:06
  no,
• 6:06
  we're not ready to fly yet,
• 6:08
  right?
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  SPEAKER_00: The risks of the vehicle, the risk of the personnel is too high.
• 6:11
  Or I flew it and it's not,
• 6:12
  unfortunately,
• 6:13
  it's not what you want it to be,
• 6:14
  right?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so because it's a quality control function and you self-install,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: you become very replaceable.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so the whole game becomes managing political capital.
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  So any moment that you can make sure people know that you're a
• 6:29
  cool guy and that
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: you're working hard and that you're trying,
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: you obviously want to do that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: The next thing is, my dad always used to joke about...
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what do you call it?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Schedule poker or scheduled chicken, right?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if say we're all sitting at a table with a,
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: management,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: management comes in and says,
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: why aren't we flying today?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're looking out the window.
• 6:47
  I know we're not going to fly for the wind or the weather or
• 6:50
  the snow or whatever.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: But if I position myself in the room,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: I get him to ask you first,
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: and then you're going to admit that it's the motor.
• 6:57
  So we don't have to have a conversation about whether or not
• 6:58
  Elliot wants to fly in the rain.
• 7:00
  Instead,
• 7:00
  we're going to have a conversation about whether or not the
• 7:02
  motor's ready.
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  And I don't have to use that car immediately and burn that
• 7:06
  political capital and
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  SPEAKER_00: risk them finding another self-installing pilot to take my ride.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: But as a result, it's very, very competitive.
• 7:13
  And then because there's no standard in the United States for
• 7:15
  what is a test pilot,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Literally,
• 7:17
  it comes all the way down to a 250-hour guy that just got his
• 7:20
  commercial ticket,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And is willing to sit in the seat.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so you take... Right.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so you take,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: especially in a moment like what's happening right now,
• 7:30
  where you have dramatic constriction within the startup
• 7:33
  community and within the
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: alternative energies community.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's out of money.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's out of time.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we need that flight to happen.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: how do you make sure that you're not wearing the hat,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: the dunce cap of the person that smoked the program?
• 7:49
  Yeah,
• 7:50
  so people are willing to take a little more risk to keep being
• 7:57
  part of something.
• 7:57
  And then the other side is like the number of guys that want to
• 8:01
  do this stuff every year,
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: that number stays constant.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if the number of startups goes down,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: and we,
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: for instance,
• 8:07
  determine that as a world we're going into World War III
• 8:09
  instead of going and
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: developing new urban air mobility vehicles,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: When we go into World War III, it's going to be unmanned.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: At least that's where the bulk of the work's going to be.
• 8:18
  And so guys like myself that have really tried to hang on to
• 8:21
  sitting in a cockpit,
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: there's less and less opportunities for us.
• 8:24
  And then it becomes who's going to charge the least and be
• 8:26
  willing to accept the
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: most risk and be willing to show up on Monday,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so it gets very competitive.
• 8:31
  Well,
• 8:31
  I obviously want to get into your background and how you got
• 8:33
  into this.
• 8:34
  However,
• 8:35
  since you just brought up these startups and that world,
• 8:40
  I would imagine...
• 8:43
  I would imagine there's boom and bust times in this job field
• 8:47
  and that during times
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: of conflict,
• 8:52
  there's probably a little more activity when the DOD is fixated
• 8:57
  on something
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: interesting and is trying out a lot of crafts.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: But we have been on the back of,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: you mentioned it,
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: this electric vertical takeoff landing vehicle,
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: these air taxi type things.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: We've had a lot of different electric vehicles.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: airplanes in general, there's been this era of new crafts, new ideas.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So has this been, has this been a relative boom time, uh,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: I've never called it this,
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: but there's a lot of people that call it the great aviation renaissance.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's pockets that feel exciting that way.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think I would take a step back further.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So first of all,
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: urban air mobility,
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: electric vehicles,
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: electric vertical takeoff has had a tremendous investment.
• 9:42
  One could argue it's soaked up all the investment dollars that
• 9:44
  were available for
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: aerospace for the last five,
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: 10 years,
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: something like that.
• 9:48
  But it's also been even longer than that since we've had sort
• 9:51
  of a major correction
• 9:52
  in the market where some of these sort of more unicorns and
• 9:55
  rainbows startups have
• 9:56
  had to sort of hit to the brass tacks and actually create
• 9:59
  something that's valuable today,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: directly valuable IP.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result...
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: there,
• 10:06
  there might be more fluff out there or there might be the
• 10:08
  constriction that may or
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: may not be coming might be more,
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: dramatic than others.
• 10:12
  So,
• 10:12
  so to answer your question directly,
• 10:14
  does the oscillation happen between DOD and CIVI?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:17
  Is it constantly going back and forth and is that predictable
• 10:19
  all the way back for
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: the history of aerospace?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's a fantastic observation.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I would say more than that,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: it's been not only profitable,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: but also on the CIVI side for much longer than,
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: than usual for this last cycle.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: To the extent that Mojave is a central piece of this...
• 10:37
  lots of people would know the right stuff and the history of
• 10:41
  test flights that have
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: taken place in this area of the world.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Has that been true for the commercial stuff that's been going on?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know a lot of these companies are based in Silicon Valley,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: or they even test in New Zealand a lot of the time.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And although there's companies like Boom,
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: That are based in Colorado,
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: but when they want to do their flights,
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: they have to do it out of Mojave.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't know how central Mojave was to this explosion.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Mojave has been and will always be at the heart of flight tests.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Not just Mojave, but this valley, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just historically, it's the place to be.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: however,
• 11:23
  the two things about this most recent revolution or series of
• 11:26
  revolutions within
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: aerospace that are significant is that number one,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: the vehicles have gotten a lot smaller.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And number two,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 11:33
  that startup culture and the availability of startup cash has
• 11:36
  allowed you to think
• 11:37
  about starting your own company rather than being forced to go
• 11:40
  to the experts and
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: ask them to build you a thing.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you might have gone to Scaled all the time in the past.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Always gone to Scaled.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or gone to Northrop.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or gone to,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: there's been several companies on the airport that sort of do,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: maybe,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Scaled took the sexiest,
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: biggest pieces,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: But there were other,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I need a little pod program,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I need to fly a sensor,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: I need to,
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:59
  borrow your control room i just want to use the ramp for a
• 12:01
  little bit those kind of
• 12:02
  things and mojave has always been that that magical place but
• 12:05
  as the size comes
• 12:06
  down and vertical i mean a lot of the initial testing with
• 12:08
  vertical you can do with
• 12:09
  the tether and if you can tether it like you can get pretty
• 12:12
  close to like urban
• 12:13
  environments and now you can take advantage of labor that
• 12:15
  doesn't want to be in the
• 12:16
  desert which is like a major deal right uh the other one the
• 12:20
  tether just adds this
• 12:21
  level of safety yeah i mean a quarter inch cable can take you
• 12:24
  know whatever
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: thousands of pounds right
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you can put the,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: for people who have no idea what you're talking about,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: you're tethering this test aircraft and giving it juice,
• 12:33
  but you don't have to worry about this flying into a person or
• 12:36
  a building or
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: anything like that,
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: but you can still know how it's performing.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:40
  Or you can even put it in a hangar and you don't even have to
• 12:42
  tell anybody that
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: you're flying this thing.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: cause,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: for instance,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: with electric vertical takeoff,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: that's where you're going to start.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to start with a,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: what is basically a propeller attached to some sort of a propulsor,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 12:52
  And it's going to be tied to the ground and you're going to go
• 12:54
  more power,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: less power and make sure that it responds at the way you,
• 12:56
  and it doesn't overheat and that sucks the right amount of
• 12:59
  power for the right
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: amount of thrust,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: all that.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's all static.
• 13:01
  So the transition from that to like a little hover or like a
• 13:04
  little thrust in,
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: or we'll put a couple of them together and we'll kind of,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't do that if you need a hundred knots, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you're going to be ripping down range, then you need a long runway.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: your scatter pattern,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: if the thing comes apart,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: it's big and then you need to be away from houses.
• 13:16
  But when you're,
• 13:16
  once you're vertical,
• 13:18
  um,
• 13:18
  you mentioned boom,
• 13:19
  it's,
• 13:19
  it's not my place.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I, um, I don't work for boom.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not here to talk about it,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: but the,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 13:24
  the big thing for boom is that they need the supersonic
• 13:26
  corridor and there's only
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: one it's here.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're going over this base that allows,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: that you can get permission to have a sonic boom.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So otherwise you have to go off the coast.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like you could,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I did some program where we were,
• 13:44
  the plan was to launch out of Mojave because we couldn't get
• 13:46
  access to the 2508 complex.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: We would just run out to Vandenberg and then off the coast.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing is like,
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: it seems like it's a long ways,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: but when you're going 400 knots,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: 500 knots,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: it happens pretty quick.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: the problem is that anyway,
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: so you would get off the,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: off the land off to where you can go supersonic,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: make your run and then come back in.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: But you're, those things are all so thirsty.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: you look at the plan for Boom's flight this week and,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: they're not airborne very long.
• 14:09
  This thing burns a lot of gas when you're,
• 14:11
  when you've opened the throttle that far.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:13
  Uh,
• 14:14
  but,
• 14:14
  but anyway,
• 14:14
  so that my point being like,
• 14:15
  what is magical about Mojave is,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, open spaces, those things are still true.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Scaled is still here.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: the long runways are still here,
• 14:23
  but the thing that's even more still here and grounds in this
• 14:25
  location is the
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: access to 2508 and its resources,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: most directly being the supersonic corridor,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: but also there's an air refueling corridor that's directly north of here.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty healthy.
• 14:34
  And the thing that's always been great about Mojave is having
• 14:37
  all those things,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: but you're still not in Utah,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're still an hour from LA.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so someone can catch flight in LAX.
• 14:42
  They can be here an hour and a half after that,
• 14:44
  and they can be added value.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And is that, this is why you live here?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I've dedicated my life to test.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so you got to be in this valley.
• 14:52
  And for me,
• 14:52
  Mojave is the center of the valley and it's tough for me to leave.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Even though a lot of the work now is not here, right?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have a little airplane.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I fly all over the country,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: all over California,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: across the Rockies six times this year in my little airplane,
• 15:06
  run into different gigs around the country because these
• 15:08
  companies aren't here
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: right now.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to ask you too,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: before is your job totally us based or do you,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: there's foreign people that are pursuing interesting things.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 15:21
  So I'm sure you're probably not flying in China,
• 15:22
  but outside of that,
• 15:23
  I did a program in China.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you did.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, long time ago.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm not interested in doing defense work overseas.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not interested in building weapons that could be pointed at us 100%.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that line gets a little fuzzy.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a program, and I'm trying to figure out how to talk about this.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: But recently, a program came up.
• 15:40
  I was asked to help on a program where it was clear that the
• 15:44
  multinational customer,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: the immediate customer,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: was not a threat.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: However, it wasn't clear who was.
• 15:50
  There were other people in the room that I wasn't positive how
• 15:53
  they might use it.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the vehicle was just potent enough.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: That it could be pretty... I mean, that's the problem.
• 15:59
  When you take a weapon and you drive it all the way down to the
• 16:01
  size of a quadcopter,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: everything's a weapon.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so how do you convince yourself... Yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: That you're not creating something that's going to be...
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you're being part of like a human drone show...
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: some human sized vehicle.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's okay.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: We, we, we don't have to, we don't have to dig in on that.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I, I did a program.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was helping the, um, foreign, uh, air forces with air shows.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So absolutely not a weapon.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: There was really no way to use it as a weapon,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: but you know,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: everything can be used as a weapon,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: but.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was pretty far from being a weapon.
• 16:36
  But for that gig,
• 16:38
  I had to travel a lot,
• 16:39
  and I would end up at foreign military bases.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was at a base in Pakistan during the conflict with India.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: So they've got guys sitting on the line in the ready rooms.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Jets are spooled up, ready to go.
• 16:51
  And so what would happen is they would pick up a flight of
• 16:53
  Indian aircraft running
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: at the border,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: and then they would be running out after them.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: and so I'm in Pakistan and there was a,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: there was like the day I left,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: they raised it yet again to know Americans should go to Pakistan.
• 17:05
  If you're going to be in Pakistan,
• 17:06
  don't be anywhere near a military base.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're going to be in a military base, no base with flying.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, cool.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I'm going.
• 17:11
  Um,
• 17:12
  so I'm in this base and at night you can hear these drones
• 17:14
  orbiting overhead,
• 17:15
  right?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: They're defending the space,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: this was a few years ago,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: drones were,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: but I hadn't experienced that.
• 17:21
  Like a drone that's surveilling and like,
• 17:23
  I think it's my drone,
• 17:23
  but like,
• 17:24
  I don't know.
• 17:24
  I had like an armed guard outside of my little,
• 17:26
  like they gave me,
• 17:27
  uh,
• 17:28
  captain's quarters.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: I had like an armed guard outside to make sure that I was safe.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: anyway,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: so the,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in a meeting and,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: because of my background,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: you're just sitting across the table.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's like a bunch of cool dudes.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're like hanging out.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy's like, do you know anything about Lycoming engines?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I was like, yeah, I do know about Lycoming engines.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, have you ever had a problem like this?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, show me a picture.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, show me pictures.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking about it.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking like,
• 17:55
  oh and like it wasn't if I hadn't heard the drone the night
• 17:58
  before it wouldn't have
• 17:59
  clicked for me like for some reason because of my background
• 18:02
  with little airplanes
• 18:02
  when I heard Lycoming I heard like oh this guy's building an
• 18:05
  airplane in his garage
• 18:05
  like it didn't click that like no we're talking about a drone
• 18:08
  and then I'm in
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Pakistan like like absolutely could be military use and I was like
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: maybe we don't need to talk.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I want you to email me.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about it later.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we'll take that offline.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Take that offline.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: but again,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: like you wouldn't think of like,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: it was,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: he wanted to talk about landing gear and brakes and piston engines,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: 180 horsepower.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: That is what.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: How long ago was this?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: you can fact check me,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: but it was the shoot match when...
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: India lobbed a rocket at Pakistan,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Pakistan knocked down a MiG-21, an Indian MiG-21.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: There was a rumor that a Pakistani F-16 got shot down,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: and there was a rumor that a Sukhoi got shot down.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And while I was there,
• 18:49
  they were counting tails on the F-16s because the Pakistanis
• 18:52
  would admit that there
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: was a F-16 shot down.
• 18:55
  And so the State Department was trying to determine if that had
• 18:58
  happened or not.
• 18:59
  Because if the jet had fallen in Pakistan,
• 19:01
  they wouldn't have admitted it was the consensus.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was like a...
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: a rumor that not only had it fallen in Pakistan,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: but the pilot had been,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 19:09
  thought to be Indian when he landed and that he had been
• 19:11
  executed by villagers when
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: he hit.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be even more embarrassing.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I don't mean to say anything or I don't know anything.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just, just repeating things I've heard.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking about a different incident.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: To get a job like that or even somebody to reach out,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like this must be a very word of mouth business.
• 19:33
  And since the test pilot circles kind of small,
• 19:37
  is that how this comes about?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: It is an incredibly small community.
• 19:46
  The reality is most people that are looking for test pilots
• 19:48
  have never looked for a
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: test pilot before.
• 19:50
  So a lot of the thing I struggle with is the fact that a movie
• 19:55
  like Top Gun comes
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: out and so they think,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: test pilot,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: and they think,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I need to go to the fighter pilot community.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality is like,
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: unless you're testing F-16s,
• 20:04
  you probably want a guy that's more closely related to the
• 20:06
  class of aircraft that
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: you're dealing with.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And especially if we're dealing with urban air mobility,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: which is a lot of the work that's happening right now.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Someone that's spent a lot of time,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: for instance,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: with little airplanes at little airports would be valuable.
• 20:15
  Or somebody that's spent a lot of time with helicopters would
• 20:17
  be valuable.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 20:18
  as opposed to somebody that's a combat guy that's focused on
• 20:20
  how to put weapons on targets,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: bombs on foreheads or put,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: shoot other airplanes down out of the sky.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's really pushing the air taxi to its, uh... Right.
• 20:28
  So some of the most rewarding work that I've done in the last
• 20:31
  few years was working on,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 20:32
  what is acceptable handling qualities for these electric
• 20:35
  vertical takeoff aircraft,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it has, it really hasn't been established.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Long story short,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: once you move from a traditional helicopter where you're moving,
• 20:42
  physically moving objects that have airfoils on them to
• 20:45
  physically move the aircraft...
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: to interacting with the computer that then moves those things.
• 20:49
  The way the vehicle responds when you put it into control,
• 20:52
  like is almost infinite.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's certainly, you know, it's a lot wider space.
• 20:55
  So you get to have this conversation about what is good enough
• 20:58
  or what is,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: what is desirable as far as the handling quality.
• 21:01
  So we're sitting in the vehicle and I go like this,
• 21:03
  you know,
• 21:03
  and I want to go that way.
• 21:05
  So I do a thing and then the vehicle does or does not do what I
• 21:07
  would expect.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the, uh, the reality is that, um,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: That space right now is poorly defined.
• 21:16
  And the only subject matter experts did the same thing for
• 21:21
  military helicopters in
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: the context of attack or of delivering,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: sling loads to Marines or whatever.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you go grab that standard.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not an attack helicopter, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: A Joby or whatever is not an attack helicopter.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: So what is it?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And what's good enough?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 21:36
  and when do you reach the extent of what's just uncomfortable
• 21:39
  for a pilot,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: but livable to the point where it's unsafe?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then, and what defines that, right?
• 21:44
  If you're landing on the top of a building and there's wind
• 21:46
  hitting the side of the
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: building is creating mechanical turbulence.
• 21:48
  It goes over the top of the building that creates a different
• 21:51
  handling qualities problem.
• 21:52
  Then I just need to be able to hold the vehicle in a 10 knot
• 21:55
  lateral translation.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: If that makes sense.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: And when you,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 22:01
  given that you have experience with these vehicles and you just
• 22:05
  have experience
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: with things in the sky,
• 22:07
  when you hear about people wanting to fill our skies with
• 22:13
  really autonomous vehicles.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Air taxis, not to mention delivery drones and things like that.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Does all this sound reasonable to you?
• 22:24
  Do you think this is going to happen or are you sitting there
• 22:26
  like these things are
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: never going to be or they're not going to be autonomous for a long time?
• 22:31
  I just feel like you would have so much,
• 22:32
  much more informed perspective on this.
• 22:34
  um you know i make my living in the in the area of hope right i
• 22:38
  make my my living
• 22:39
  in an area of we can do better this is a new technology we want
• 22:42
  it to work i
• 22:43
  believe that a lot of things are possible especially on an
• 22:46
  infinite timeline with
• 22:46
  an infinite amount of money the reality is that uh it's not me
• 22:50
  that matters like at
• 22:51
  the end of the day i like being a part of interesting programs
• 22:53
  and i um if it's
• 22:55
  interesting i'll do it regardless of whether or not it's
• 22:57
  long-term feasible i try
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: to remove myself from long-term feasible
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: The other side though,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: is that you have the FAA talking about not being able to find a path to
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: certification for a electrical vertical takeoff aircraft for,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: and the numbers keep getting bigger,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 23:11
  And as we just talked about,
• 23:12
  there's basic handling quality questions that hang out there.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily,
• 23:14
  there's huge pressure to make these things work because people
• 23:17
  believe they will
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: darken the skies,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 23:18
  And then you have a president that just said,
• 23:20
  you know,
• 23:20
  drill,
• 23:20
  baby,
• 23:21
  drill.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the electric portion of it,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: if energy costs are only going to go down,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: it gets harder to justify the move to solar,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: electric,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: blah.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: So these external pressures are way bigger players.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: The one I like to think about is the quadcopter warfare that's happening
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: specifically in Ukraine,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: but both in Ukraine and Israel right now.
• 23:38
  The technology that's been developed and the way warfare has
• 23:41
  changed is hard to
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: really get your head around here.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're so removed from it, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: But a couple months ago,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: when those attempts were made on Trump's life,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: if instead of it being a conventional rifle,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: if it had been a DJI drone,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: it would have raised the consciousness such to a level.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And how would the eVTOL investor market have responded to that?
• 24:01
  If we had to all acknowledge,
• 24:02
  hey,
• 24:02
  man,
• 24:02
  there might be a bigger thing to think about right now.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: than urban air mobility, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then counterwise,
• 24:08
  if we continue to have other conversations like fires in LA
• 24:13
  that have nothing to do
• 24:14
  with what's the value of quadcopters because we need to have a
• 24:16
  guy flying that
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: scooper because it's just too complicated of a problem.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm just hypothesizing.
• 24:21
  then we don't get to have the conversation about quadcopters
• 24:24
  and modern warfare.
• 24:24
  And so we'll continue to think about urban mobility or these
• 24:26
  other problems.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: like with everybody being so connected right now on the way social media,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: hashtag XYZ,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: like it can very much slew where that money goes.
• 24:35
  And at the end of the day,
• 24:36
  it's going to take money to develop any of these technologies.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to darken the skies, it's just even more money.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: All right,
• 24:43
  let's go backwards for a second because I don't think I know
• 24:46
  the answer to some of
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: these questions,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: even though we've hung out a bit.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you grow up?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I grew up in Michigan.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: And were you,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I know you said you came to this from the engineering path,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: but something tells me you were a,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: you were an airplane,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: from,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: My dad was a pilot.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I learned to ride my bicycle at the airport.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I spent my summers trying to get my dad to take me flying.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: There was five kids in the family.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: So who got to go flying?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: My dad only had a two-seat airplane.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: So who got to go flying was absolutely up in the air.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it was something that I feel like I couldn't always get it.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes that's important with a kid.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it kind of held it at a little bit of a distance.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so it was something I always wanted to do.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: He was a commercial pilot?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, he just did it for fun.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: when I was like right at that age,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: that age being like hormones coming into the pictures of 12 to 14,
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: something like that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: He,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: modified his,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: it was a standard category airplane called the Globe Swift,
• 25:46
  but he modified it in STC for a bigger engine and longer range
• 25:49
  fuel tanks.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then flew,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: between two places that had never been flown by from,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 25:55
  just in the United States and was the fastest guy to fly
• 25:57
  between those two points.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a way to, anybody can set a record at any time, basically.
• 26:01
  And,
• 26:01
  uh,
• 26:02
  he just happened to do with a bunch of other guys and it got
• 26:03
  like a little press.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so we got invited to,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Washington DC and like eight dudes stood on a,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: on the platform.
• 26:10
  And then we got a tour backstage of what was now a far hazy,
• 26:13
  but it wasn't over hazy yet.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was just the back, back area of the Smithsonian.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to see the Enola Gay before it was released.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like 12 years old.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just like a very like pivotal moment where it was like,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, hanging out at the airport, it was like this little thing.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was just me, like me and my dad, like my friends didn't do it.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I talked to girls about it at school.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't get it right.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I like ride my bike and I was like really into it.
• 26:31
  And then there was this moment where like he reached out and
• 26:34
  touched something and
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: like he could suddenly we were a part of it.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: So just going to the air show, we were kind of part of the air show.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: At least I could see a path.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: and that was kind of,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 26:41
  I think critical to sort of me getting my head around what I
• 26:45
  want to do with my life.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: So then it was just a matter of what does that mean?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Does that mean flying?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Does that mean working on them?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like wrenching?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Does that mean building them?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Does like, you know, what does it, what does that mean?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I've sort of struggled with that ever since.
• 26:57
  If you were working to get your pilot's license that whole time
• 27:01
  when you were growing up?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was no question it was something I wanted.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't have any money.
• 27:05
  So I got a job one summer doing tearing out the offices at the
• 27:12
  Michigan State Capitol,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: which was not only union pay,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: but it was also like unlimited hours.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like a day laborer, right?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm like breaking down walls and like tearing out furniture.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd work like 70, 80 hours a week and it was union wage.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like Sunday, you're making straight double time, right?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have anything to do.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: So just stash the money away.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I was able to take that cash and,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: this farmer had been flying a Cessna out of his backyard illegally.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: me and my dad,
• 27:37
  and so he matched my dollar for dollar and we were able to go
• 27:40
  in on this Cessna and,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: and then I spent a year restoring it and got it flying.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but that was like, uh, the airplane I ended up learning to fly in.
• 27:46
  So before that I'd take like a lesson here,
• 27:48
  lesson there,
• 27:48
  but I'd run out of money.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And now it was like, I had this plane.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so, um, uh, I got signed off to solo and I just flew it every day.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you were saying you've wrestled with this question your whole life,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: but was there a moment where you're just like,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I should just go join the air force and become a pilot?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: So when I say the question, I meant, how do I add, how do I contribute?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, am I going to fly?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Am I going to be an engineer?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And do I want to be a mechanic?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: that project of that Cessna is a great example where like,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was flying it,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: but I was also like working on it.
• 28:18
  My uncle bro would come up on the weekends and we would take a
• 28:21
  squawk list and we'd
• 28:21
  go through and he was supervising me as an IA so I could do the maintenance.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: He'd come in and he'd sign it off and then I could go fly again.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So lots of this, parts of this were attractive to you.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And all I knew is I couldn't get enough.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: I always say it doesn't matter.
• 28:35
  You don't necessarily have to pick a direction,
• 28:36
  uh,
• 28:37
  a destination,
• 28:38
  just pick a direction.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that like more airplanes.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like, well, I don't know, there's another air show.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Go to the air show.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: We'll like, we'll learn more.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how I ended up in Mojave.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, everything was here.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: So did you, did you end up with a formal, did you go to university?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to engineering school.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: I got a degree in mechanical engineering.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and, uh,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Again, at scale, we used to talk about design, build, test.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's the full loop, right?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the theory that explains how a thing works.
• 29:07
  So I know that I want to have an airplane that'll do X.
• 29:09
  What does that look like?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Taking that into the physical realm, right?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: So not only like...
• 29:14
  drawing it but also like we're going to make it out of
• 29:17
  composite we're going to
• 29:17
  weld we're going to rip it we're going to screw whatever right
• 29:20
  so design build and
• 29:22
  then to get in the aircraft and feel it right and have it do
• 29:24
  the thing underneath
• 29:25
  you or not that you had intended that it closes the loop and
• 29:28
  that's where you get
• 29:29
  the return on investment right so um in a traditional
• 29:32
  engineering world especially
• 29:33
  in aerospace there's a lot of guys that design a bit and they
• 29:36
  especially like in a
• 29:37
  classified environment like you may design something 10 times
• 29:40
  and never see it do
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: the thing you design it for there was a
• 29:43
  Guy I used to work with who had done five tailhooks for
• 29:48
  classified vehicles.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if it's going to run off the runway,
• 29:50
  this tailhook would deploy and he'd catch the cable at the end
• 29:52
  of the room.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And he'd never seen the vehicle finished.
• 29:55
  So just think he could be carrying the same error through
• 29:58
  everything he'd ever done,
• 29:59
  right?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he'd worked a whole career and he would never know.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so the big thing for me was,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: if I pick mechanic,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: then you're,
• 30:06
  you're that guy that's under the airplane saying that engineer
• 30:08
  made the space too small.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Why did he use this size washer?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's that guy.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: if you're the pilot,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: you're saying like,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: that tone's going off at the wrong time,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you're the engineer, you're saying like, well, how, how.
• 30:20
  how could I possibly understand what it is to fly this thing six,
• 30:23
  10 hours a day or whatever?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like everybody's sort of abstract as the problem gets too complex.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so picking a space to be,
• 30:30
  and that's what ended up fascinating me about flight tests is
• 30:33
  it's the center of
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: the Venn diagram.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: you have to be able to talk to a scheduler,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: like we talked about before,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: it was political capital.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like I need the investment level guys to understand like,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 30:42
  this is a moment that's above and beyond the risk that we're
• 30:45
  willing to take in
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: this organization.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you also have to be able to talk to the mechanic and say like,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: so they're talking about this thing that's going on.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't really make sense.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Can you show me what you fixed or what was broken, right?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And be able to talk his language and understand from that perspective.
• 30:57
  And that's why it's been ultimately the most rewarding work
• 30:59
  I've ever done.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, the passion.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, well, how directly you're like, that's how I ended up in Mojave.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: How direct was your path from that engineering degree to Mojave?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, I went to school in upstate New York.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there's like the MB riddles and that kind of stuff.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't,
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was honestly,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: if we're talking Turkey,
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was worried that if I lived around pilots and want to be pilots,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: I would,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: it would put the fire out.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I was trying to like kind of hold it.
• 31:27
  Like I'd always had aviation be my thing and I would go to
• 31:30
  school and it wouldn't.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to continue that.
• 31:32
  And I was at a school in upstate New York where all the
• 31:34
  engineers left and either
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: went to an atomic laboratory,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 31:39
  Where we would do atomic testing on the ground or they would do
• 31:42
  windmills for General Electric.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I, I like, I don't think I can do that.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I, like, I like engineering.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: I like,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm passionate about how the pieces fit together and how the math,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: how the world adds up to the math adds up to the vehicle.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: But, uh, uh, so I, I was sort of having a, um, existential moment.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I made a list of the coolest things I could think of.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, you know, like spaceship one, uh, right.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Reno air racing.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like what year is this?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: How old are you?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it was, uh, I graduated in, uh, 06.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, graduate college.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so, uh, I made a list of coolest things I could think of.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was like, well, I'm going to call them all.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, just this dumb kid, but it was like, it was a big moment.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was, I was anyway, I wanted, I wasn't going to put up with no answer.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the timeline was running out.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: You run out of school and you got to have a plan of attack.
• 32:33
  Anyway,
• 32:33
  so I just,
• 32:34
  I had in order to call them or contact them,
• 32:36
  I had to know where they were.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I like,
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: I had this big spreadsheet,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: had 52 lines on it of different organizations that I was interested in.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next line would be the address.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd start putting the editor like, these guys are all in Mojave.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: What is Mojave?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: What is this thing?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so that summer I got in my cruddy old, no, no.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: I drove out here and,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: knocked on every door on the airport and said,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: do you guys need help?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't be here all summer and not make money.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: I need to feed myself, but I don't need much more.
• 33:03
  You know,
• 33:04
  I got this pickup truck and I get a crappy apartment figured out.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: so then I,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: I spent that summer,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: I had a log book,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: like a little quarter page composition notebook.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And every day I would write down who I met,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: what airplanes I saw fly,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: in order to sort of keep log of,
• 33:19
  cause I knew I had just a very limited time here for that
• 33:21
  summer internship and I
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: had to go back to school.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I knew that I needed to come back here.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I needed to have a list of people to contact.
• 33:27
  And then once I got back to New York for my last year of school,
• 33:30
  I just,
• 33:30
  uh,
• 33:30
  I had a schedule.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this sounds so dork, like the look on your face.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm impressed, man.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I like this.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: on Friday,
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Friday afternoon,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: the assumption was that Friday afternoon people are in good moods.
• 33:40
  So,
• 33:40
  you know,
• 33:40
  with the time difference,
• 33:41
  cause I'm in New York,
• 33:42
  they're in California.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: call everybody on the list and say,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Hey man,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: just,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: just to remind you,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: we met over the summer and like,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're cool.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to work with you guys.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, do you need another copy of my resume?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know of any other jobs I can apply for on the organization?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have other jobs that are available on the field?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I really want to be out there.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was not looking at you funny.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: I actually, I did similar things.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, at least when I was like applying to college, I was trying to get a
• 34:11
  tennis scholarship because i i played tons of tennis and and
• 34:14
  but i was i was like
• 34:15
  good but not like that good so i really had to sell it and so i
• 34:19
  put together all
• 34:20
  these packages with videos and essays like vhs tapes yeah yeah
• 34:24
  yeah right like i
• 34:25
  remember putting them all in the envelope and i had my whole
• 34:28
  counter all lined up
• 34:29
  and then i called all the coaches it's like email was just it
• 34:33
  was available but not
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: prevalent and so you get to
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Call them all, make sure they got it, see if they saw it.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: And anyway, I go about things.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And make sure you say the right name.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: A similar way.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because you do 10 in a row.
• 34:43
  And,
• 34:43
  I mean,
• 34:45
  not to go all old man on this podcast,
• 34:47
  but I am often shocked.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: I get so many emails of people reaching out.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, sometimes they want to work with you or whatever.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're kids looking.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's just such a difference between...
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you get 100 of those,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would say one person follows up and is,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: really pushing it,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: pushing it,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: pushing it.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they stand out so much from the other 99 just from following up.
• 35:15
  It literally could be one extra email or one extra phone call,
• 35:19
  and it makes a difference.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's so funny to me.
• 35:22
  for me that that part of this like having a online personality
• 35:26
  um getting the
• 35:28
  emails and the whatever the reach outs and and like it gets
• 35:32
  overwhelming and i
• 35:32
  can't keep up with it like is the most heartbreaking thing of
• 35:35
  the whole like it
• 35:36
  honestly if there's anything that makes me want to stop putting
• 35:38
  things on the
• 35:39
  internet it's just that like i can't i can't keep up with it
• 35:42
  like uh like uh and
• 35:44
  it's i just feel like i'm letting everybody down i'm like
• 35:46
  there's a little guy that
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: i understand out there that needs something and i can't
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the other one is like,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I get guys and my wife is like,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: why are you,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: you don't know this guy.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you like advocating for him with a stranger?
• 35:57
  Like it's such a hard,
• 35:59
  a hard deal,
• 36:00
  but I hadn't thought about a second email.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good, I like that.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: it's just,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: it's stupid and trivial,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: but it is,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: it's just,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: you can always tell the person that follows up from the one that does it.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of times in my head,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was always like,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: I assume everybody's doing this,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: but it turns out they really aren't.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there you go, kids.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can, that's your lesson for the day.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 36:24
  there's so many other things I just wanted to talk with you and
• 36:28
  directions to go,
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: but...
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: And part of how you and I got to know each other also is through,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: you have your own hangar here at Mojave,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: and you,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: in addition to test flying other people's crafts,
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: you have your own planes that you're working on with your friend,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Justin,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: and you do races.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about this part of your life.
• 36:54
  There's going to be a lot of people listening to this that
• 36:56
  don't even know this
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: world exists,
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: so describe it.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: yeah, um,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: In general,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: the same attitude that we're talking about,
• 37:07
  about not wanting to do anything else and being willing to do
• 37:10
  all the extra stuff
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: has sort of carried on since then.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: So my T-hanger, my hangers here in Mojave have always been that.
• 37:17
  So whether that be building a race plane for myself or looking
• 37:22
  after a race plane
• 37:23
  for somebody else or modifying a race plane for somebody else
• 37:25
  or helping a guy
• 37:25
  finish a project or holding onto a project where somebody goes
• 37:28
  through a funding
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: problem or whatever,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: has always been a part of what we do.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that can be, um, fabrication.
• 37:35
  So,
• 37:35
  um,
• 37:35
  you know,
• 37:35
  I think between Justin and I,
• 37:37
  we built,
• 37:37
  well,
• 37:37
  I don't know,
• 37:39
  four,
• 37:39
  five,
• 37:40
  six.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: Remind me Justin's last name.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Gillen.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:43
  So Justin,
• 37:44
  I've been doing this wasabi thing for,
• 37:45
  I don't know,
• 37:46
  getting on 20 years,
• 37:47
  but,
• 37:47
  um,
• 37:49
  whether it be that building an airplane like from scratch or
• 37:51
  whether it be
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: finishing an airplane or fix an airplane that's broke.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or we just recently had a guy that the big thing with,
• 37:59
  with building airplanes is like everybody's good at something
• 38:01
  and not good at other things.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so you tend to kind of go through phases.
• 38:03
  Typically the airplane starts with like just gathering parts
• 38:06
  and finding enough space to work.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: So some guys,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: they,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: they get parts and they can,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: they never get a garage or a hangar to work in.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that ends up being a spot where you lose guys.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the next step is it's all primary structure.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's,
• 38:15
  big bolts and,
• 38:16
  you know,
• 38:17
  composite structures and like,
• 38:18
  you know,
• 38:18
  that kind of stuff.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so some guys just can't transition to that and you lose them.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then you start stuffing systems.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so some guys can't handle wiring.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so they,
• 38:24
  they drop off there or it's hanging the motor and they're just
• 38:27
  too intimidated by
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: the propulsion system.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or it's like, it starts to get into a real airplane.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now it doesn't fit in your garage.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: You have to move it to the hanger.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so having a hanger that,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: has tools in it or that's close enough to your house,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: or you have to,
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: you've,
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: you spent thousands of hours working in your garage.
• 38:40
  Now you have to figure out how to work,
• 38:41
  you know,
• 38:41
  20 minutes down the road.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you got to find the right hanger, whatever.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: But each one of these are sort of jump off points.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And because Justin and I have been through it,
• 38:47
  we can kind of help somebody through whatever that phase is
• 38:49
  that they're struggling with.
• 38:51
  And the payoff has always been that we get access to more
• 38:53
  products and more airplanes,
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: which is what Justin and I live for.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you have people.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: When you talk about racing airplanes, what does that mean?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: So racing can mean a lot of things.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would put it basically in, uh, three categories.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's like cross country racing.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: like the,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: there's guys that race,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: from Dayton,
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Ohio up to Oshkosh,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Wisconsin,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: or they race out in Utah.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: There'll be like one turn, like take off and fly out to a spot and back.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's like time trials where we'll like
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody takes off every two minutes,
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: and then we look at elapsed time between two points,
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: or sometimes it's people take off together.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: It all depends on the structure.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's cross-country racing.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: The other one is the sort of the Red Bull racing,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: which I think people are most familiar with,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: where it's a sort of a combination of air show and racing,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: but it's time trials.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: So one person's flying at a time, and they're flying against a stopwatch.
• 39:39
  And then our times are compared at the end,
• 39:40
  assuming that everybody flew the course properly.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's like...
• 39:44
  obstacles and things in that or yeah honestly i don't i'm not
• 39:47
  one to speak about
• 39:48
  rebel i don't i didn't do it but yeah so there's like these
• 39:50
  pylons that are
• 39:51
  inflatable and you fly near them and some of them you have to
• 39:53
  slalom between and
• 39:54
  some of them you have to fly between two of them and their
• 39:56
  altitude's important and
• 39:56
  if you run into them that's bad and that kind of stuff i i'm
• 40:00
  not big on either of
• 40:00
  those kinds of racing for me it's uh pylon racing uh so uh reno
• 40:05
  air racing was
• 40:05
  something i you know it was the coolest thing i could think of
• 40:07
  since i was just a
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: kid so reno air racing or pylon air racing
• 40:11
  It goes back to pre-World War II,
• 40:12
  but right after World War II,
• 40:13
  it was in Cleveland.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then eventually it was in Reno.
• 40:16
  There have been races around the rest of the world,
• 40:18
  et cetera,
• 40:18
  country,
• 40:19
  et cetera.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the big one was Reno.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: And fundamentally,
• 40:21
  it's eight airplanes in the sky at the same time racing around
• 40:24
  telephone poles.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big oval.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you go below the pylon, you're penalized for being too low.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you go too high,
• 40:31
  it gets hard for the judges to see you and what you're doing
• 40:33
  and understand what
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: you're doing.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so other than that,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: it's like basically a big car track,
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Indianapolis 500,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: there's no turns,
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: there's no slaloming or anything like that.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's an oval,
• 40:41
  but it's eight airplanes in the sky trying to go for one spot
• 40:44
  or being the fastest
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: guy on a given day.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: And how, how many laps do you do?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: It depends.
• 40:50
  But,
• 40:50
  you know,
• 40:51
  we're talking on average,
• 40:52
  most classes take about a minute per lap to finish.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you're looking at on the order of six to eight laps,
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: depending on,
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: we're talking about a lot of different things right now.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: But, um, so it's like a 10 minute race, something like that.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you're going sort of,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: somewhere between whatever,
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: 60 and a hundred miles.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Something like that.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is that scary?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Dangerous?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's, we were talking earlier about the fighter pilot thing.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was really important for me, uh, to have earned my stripes.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something that, uh, uh, it's not the safest kind of flying.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's very similar to air combat in some ways.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: not that I know anything about fighting in a war or whatever,
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: but you're sort of competing against other pilots in sort of a,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: intense environment.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not, I'm trying to be, uh, pragmatic here.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: The, uh, the, the fatality rate was a problem.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that that was mostly because of the sort of appetite for,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: risk in the United States or in the world has changed over the last,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: the event went on for,
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 41:49
  60 years or something like that and over that time like the
• 41:51
  first year I raced
• 41:53
  during qualifying in the beginning of the week the lady in the
• 41:55
  pit next to my
• 41:56
  airplane disintegrated in the air and she she passed and we
• 42:00
  didn't fill her spot
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: and we kept flying that day
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that was sort of part of the, the culture, right?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: The reality was that like,
• 42:08
  you don't get to do this racing stuff very often and we're not
• 42:10
  going to shut the
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: whole event down because somebody got hurt.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so like a lot of years, nobody would get hurt.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone smiles, several people will get hurt.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: There'd be several accidents.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: And, uh, and that was sort of built into it.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 42:20
  hopefully I'm not committing a HIPAA violation or embarrassing
• 42:24
  you too much,
• 42:25
  but I also remember you telling me a story about having a
• 42:29
  catheter in like a
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: 12-hour flight as part of some race.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: What was that?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I set a distance record.
• 42:40
  Well,
• 42:40
  it was a point-to-point record set between here and Oshkosh,
• 42:44
  Wisconsin.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we talked earlier about my dad setting these point-to-point records,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: and that was the first exposure that I had to it.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality is that that's sort of an easy,
• 42:52
  like early record setting experience that a person can have to
• 42:55
  get themselves in
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: the book.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to have those experiences myself.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, what could we do one better?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then just picking two random towns.
• 43:03
  Well,
• 43:03
  let's pick two towns that are very important,
• 43:05
  if not to me,
• 43:06
  to some subgroup.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: So for me,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Mojave,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: California,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: which is where,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: home building in a lot of ways was,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: came to its own or was built or whatever.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: And Oshkosh are two magical spots.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I draw a line between them and set a record for that distance,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: then that would be important to me.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then I set another record from Mojave to Reno, same thing.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Those are two places that are important to me.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I mean, the flight to Wisconsin is, I think...
• 43:34
  I could have done it in nine,
• 43:35
  but my wife wanted me to,
• 43:36
  she wanted to watch.
• 43:38
  The airplane is a race plane,
• 43:39
  so it doesn't have any,
• 43:40
  it doesn't have an electrical system.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can't charge the battery after you take off.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: I can't put the canopy on after, like I can't taxi.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: In that configuration, I couldn't really taxi the airplane.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like you basically set it on the runway, start the engine race, right?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to fly it across the whole country.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: So she was nervous about that.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: So Justin modified his airplane so he could also make the flight nonstop.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: And she rode with him and he had good radios and everything like that.
• 43:59
  So I could just jump on his wing and he'd kind of drag me over
• 44:01
  there in the event
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: that I had problems with the airplane.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: The iPad I brought.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: You flew nonstop.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: From here to Wisconsin.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you're trying to do it just in the fastest time anyone's.
• 44:09
  Yeah,
• 44:10
  there was no one had set the record before,
• 44:11
  so you were going to get the record anyway.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a lot more like sort of ceremonial.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Once Oshkosh found out about it,
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: or once EAA found out about the air show,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: found out about it,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: they invited us to land during the air show.
• 44:21
  which meant there was just almost enough hours in the daylight
• 44:24
  in the day to do it
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: and only be in daylight.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: But once they wanted us to land during the air show,
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: it moved us up,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: which meant we had to take off earlier here.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we ended up taking off like 4 o'clock in the morning,
• 44:34
  3.30 in the morning with thunderstorms over Vegas in the dark
• 44:36
  in an airplane I'd
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: never flown in the dark before.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then you don't fly formation in the dark.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we're kind of all on our own until the sun comes up.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then we were just on the east side of Vegas.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And there was enough light that we could kind of gather back up.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last step that happened was,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 44:50
  once the rest of the scaled Mojave community found out what we
• 44:53
  were doing,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: they all want to be a part of it.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: It ended up being a six or seven airplanes.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: It all flew together.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Convoy.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it was freaking awesome.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like some great, like a camaraderie.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was three different,
• 45:04
  what ended up happening is there's sort of three different
• 45:05
  classes of aircraft,
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: three different speeds.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: So they all took off at different times.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then we all met up sort of as we crossed,
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: was the Missouri river or whatever,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: sort of an hour and a half,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: two hours from the air show.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then we had this massive formation, like descending on the air show.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really cool.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody's peeing this whole time.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, right, right.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I put a relief tube in my airplane because I was by myself.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: my wife and,
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 45:26
  Justin were going to fly together and the plan had been that
• 45:28
  they would like put up
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: a discreet curtain and then they would be able to take care of stuff.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it turned out it was just too weird in the cockpit.
• 45:35
  So they just didn't pee for 12 hours or we ended up getting
• 45:38
  there in like 10 and a
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: half hours,
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: but they made us orbit for an hour because of the air show.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh, yeah.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh,
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: So they really had to go by the time.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Commitment.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Commitment to the craft.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: How many,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: how many aircraft,
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: what's like a,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 45:54
  what's a normal week or month for you in terms of how much you
• 45:57
  fly and then how
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: many aircraft have you flown in your,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: your life?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh, types of aircraft, um, I'm getting right around 150 types.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 46:07
  Um,
• 46:08
  this last year I flew somewhere like on the order of 1200 hours,
• 46:12
  which is a lot for me.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Usually in flight tests,
• 46:14
  you don't get to fly that much cause you spend a lot of time on
• 46:16
  the ground,
• 46:17
  but I've had a couple of gigs in a row where there was a lot of
• 46:19
  flying and then,
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: using my airplane to get around has been a lot of that.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, like in the last two weeks I've flown, maybe
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: somewhere between six and 10 different airplanes.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: in the last year or two,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've set,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: a couple of records and,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: got like three first flights in the last,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking on the way over,
• 46:43
  I probably should have got the logbook out and had answers for
• 46:45
  this stuff,
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: but yeah.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: So in a first flight is the first person to take a new vehicle up.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is the part where I just,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think you guys are crazy.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 46:57
  I cannot imagine what would have to happen to me for me to like
• 47:02
  get in one of those
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: for the first time or do it.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: obviously if I'd been flying my whole life,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's probably much,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: much different equation than,
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: than me,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: idiot journalist even thinking about doing this,
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: but.
• 47:16
  Do you,
• 47:17
  do you,
• 47:19
  every time you do that,
• 47:21
  do you have the emotions I'm talking about?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you have fears or now that's, yeah.
• 47:27
  The first,
• 47:28
  first flight I did,
• 47:29
  um,
• 47:29
  you would have been able to see it right out the window here.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was a little, um,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: wood and fabric airplane that I,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: found partially built at a museum in Northern California.
• 47:40
  And I finished building it and then therefore had the privilege
• 47:42
  to determine who got to fly it.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Good idea.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Good idea.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: I decided I should be the guy.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was, uh, you know, paralyzed with fear.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: The, um.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Weren't you just like, I should not do this?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: The old joke, right?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'd rather die than look bad, right?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it was not about fear of getting hurt.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was about fear of embarrassing yourself publicly, right?
• 48:06
  And that goes all the way back,
• 48:07
  like with the personality type that does this kind of stuff.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you just, you know, I was working at Scaled.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to fly the spaceship more than anything else in the world.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be a test pod Scaled more than anything else in the world.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: This was a path,
• 48:18
  a part of that path to getting there was this little airplane
• 48:21
  of my buddies and homies.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: We were all working together trying to build airplanes to build shits.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was the first one through the gate.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like it would be real easy to be the first one that fell off the table.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: and so,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm paralyzed,
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: looking back,
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm proud of the work that I did building up to it.
• 48:35
  The reality is the physiological response of being exposed to a
• 48:37
  new thing is kind
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: of hard to deal with.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: And now having done,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: 20 some first flights,
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: you have all the skills there,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: That novelty's gone.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of the time,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: the first 10 first flights that I did was just figuring out how to get
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: How to get the novelty out of the room.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Cause the end of the day,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: my job as a tester is if you designed it,
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want to bring you into the cockpit as much as possible,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know what to do.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're just bringing me in there to be hands and feet.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: So in one hand,
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do what you tell me to do,
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: but then after the flight,
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: I need to be able to tell you what happened,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be able to almost occupy my body.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm like, like all wigged out and lizarded out, right.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: And not,
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: one of the big thing that happens is as you get nervous,
• 49:22
  you're literally your peripheral vision goes away and you start
• 49:24
  to tunnel out.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like my job is to be thinking about traffic,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: airports,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: that's happened on the wingtip,
• 49:30
  the instrument you told me to worry about all these things at
• 49:32
  the same time.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: And as you get nervous, right.
• 49:34
  And it tunnels down and you start,
• 49:35
  whatever you fixate on airspeed,
• 49:37
  right.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: then I'm not doing my job.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of that,
• 49:40
  those first several flights was just about figuring out how to
• 49:43
  take that novelty
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: out of the cockpit,
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: make there not be triggers.
• 49:46
  So like one thing was I never really flown with like a helmet
• 49:50
  and a parachute on.
• 49:51
  So now every time I put on the helmet and parachute,
• 49:52
  I was like,
• 49:53
  oh man,
• 49:53
  I'm doing something.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then it would be just like a physical cue that like,
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, we're going to fly with a parachute a lot.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to fly with a helmet on a lot.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to make sure that that's not a deal, right?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: Another one was like,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: you realize as you're taxiing out,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: you're like,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't taxied this thing,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, we're going to taxi a lot before we fly from now on, right?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man,
• 50:10
  like I'm lizarded out because I'm nervous and I'm looking for
• 50:14
  the airspeed
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: indicator and you're doing this thing where you're like,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: where is the airspeed?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, I can fix that chair flying, right?
• 50:18
  I can sit in the cockpit for four hours before the flight and say,
• 50:21
  airspeed indicator,
• 50:22
  bam.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: oil pressure for me.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: And getting yourself ready.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:25
  But all those things were lessons learned that came from going
• 50:27
  through the circus.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so as a result now,
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's what I'm selling to a customer is that like,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: you've got somebody that's been through it and they're not,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: the novelty is not going to be there.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, and you're talking about working at scaled and we,
• 50:42
  scaled for people who don't know is is a lot of people would
• 50:45
  say of course you've
• 50:47
  had military tests in the mojave out here for a long time but
• 50:51
  but kind of made the
• 50:53
  mojave in a lot of ways because it was this um fascinating
• 50:57
  company that was moving
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: fast making all kinds of new vehicles it was doing cool stuff and and
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: breathing life in this place.
• 51:05
  And so you wanted to work there because they had so many new
• 51:09
  aircraft coming that
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: this is a great opportunity for you to be at the cutting edge.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: So again, um, looking back from the college perspective, right.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that,
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 51:19
  I wanted to be somewhere in this intersection of maintenance
• 51:22
  and fabrication and
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: engineering and piloting.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like I knew I wanted to be in that space.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: scaled or specifically Bert,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: he's one of the most prolific designers of all time.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's, he's what, 30, 40 designers.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: Bert Rutan.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Bert Rutan.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Bert Rutan.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: so like,
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: one of the things,
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: if you want to be around that space,
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: it'd be good to be around a lot of not,
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: serial numbers,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: part numbers,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like different aircraft, right.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: And somebody that's going through that cycle as much as possible.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: and so then coming out here was when I realized,
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: especially in the complexity of the space program,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 51:56
  As a vehicle gets complex,
• 51:59
  it gets easier and easier to end up way down in a niche.
• 52:03
  And a lot of the value that Scaled has is that because they've
• 52:07
  been through the
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: rodeo so many times,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: they understand that center space where everything intersects.
• 52:11
  So you may be interested in space because you are really
• 52:14
  interested in liquid,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: liquid propulsion,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: rocket motors,
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 52:17
  And you really know a lot about pumps and turbo machinery and
• 52:21
  way down in a row.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes time to make a vehicle, right?
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: human fingers have to touch a radio and change frequencies, right?
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: The canopy has to be able to be latched.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: there has to be,
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: it has to be able to operate within the airspace of the United States,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like these are much broader things, right?
• 52:37
  And so having been through that several times,
• 52:39
  it made scale very valuable.
• 52:41
  Uh,
• 52:41
  and that was,
• 52:42
  um,
• 52:42
  anyway,
• 52:43
  that,
• 52:43
  that,
• 52:43
  that's what ended up interesting me about scale.
• 52:45
  And then ultimately interesting me in the sort of the center of
• 52:47
  the Venn diagram
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: that was flight test is that you,
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: it's the ultimate,
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you need to be able to,
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: converse with lots of different subsets of skills and,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: and add value.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you trained yourself to deal with this job and how does your,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: how does your family deal with this job?
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: You talked about your wife going on that flight and wanting to see you.
• 53:14
  And,
• 53:14
  and I know you've been through some adventures and you're still married.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: but it's gotta be,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: it's gotta be a pretty nerve wracking,
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: position for a spouse.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's an absolute rock star.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably the most important thing to say.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: But she grew up in an Air Force family.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: So her dad was not only, he did load master stuff.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: So he was traveling around the world doing that.
• 53:39
  So he was an aviator who was around and had to go somewhere to
• 53:42
  do aviation stuff
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: over the horizon.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: But then when she was coming up,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: he was working as an engineer on the C-17 program down in Long Beach.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: So she was exposed to flight tests and aircraft development through that.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: She wasn't much interested in it until we started hanging out.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: But once we started hanging out and then,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: she's working at Scaled,
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: she quickly went from sort of,
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm proud of her,
• 54:00
  so this is me speaking with pride about a woman I obviously am
• 54:03
  very fond of,
• 54:03
  but she progressed from sort of an administrative role to for
• 54:07
  most of the time that
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: we worked together at Scaled,
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: she was directly supporting flight tests.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: So she was living in that world during the day,
• 54:15
  independent at night when we were designing and building and
• 54:18
  flying aircraft.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, she wasn't a pilot when I met her, um, very quickly.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't like being in the cockpit, not going, no one was going on.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: So she went out and got her pilot's license.
• 54:26
  Um,
• 54:26
  but as a result,
• 54:27
  she has sort of an unusual,
• 54:29
  um,
• 54:30
  uh,
• 54:30
  fluency within aviation.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: and then on top of it,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: not to go too far down this rabbit hole,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: but hanging out in Mojave flying rat experimentals as a pilot.
• 54:41
  She has a fair number of,
• 54:43
  you know,
• 54:43
  I think she's got six dead stick landings under her belt.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: She's at six emergency landings in aircraft.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: So she's been there.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: She's done it, right?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so she knows exactly what it is, for good or for bad.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: So a dead stick landing is the aircraft's not responding properly.
• 54:59
  The joke is dead stick,
• 55:00
  so the propeller looks like a dead stick on the front of the airplane.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not doing the thing it's supposed to do.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's stuck, right?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a dumb stick.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is the propeller usually doesn't stop.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a windmill,
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: so if you're moving through the air,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: it'll turn whether or not the engine's making thrust.
• 55:13
  But yeah,
• 55:13
  it just means that you're in the air and you need to be on the ground.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: And she's had six of those and walked away from all of them.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you can still guide it down, right?
• 55:23
  Yeah,
• 55:24
  so effectively it becomes a glider once the propulsion system's gone.
• 55:27
  So unless you're dealing with a more complex failure where
• 55:29
  you're dealing with
• 55:31
  something that might be dealing with structures or you have
• 55:33
  some sort of a flight
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: control problem or some sort of a crew,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: cabin problem where it's,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: smoke in the cockpit or,
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: something that's hurting the...
• 55:41
  Like I was in a situation where I was getting sprayed in the
• 55:43
  face with methanol and
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: there was a chance of going blind from methanol exposure.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's the engine's running fine.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: The landing gear is going to go up and down.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: The flight controls work.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's just whether or not the pilot's going to be there to fight the deal.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, most of the time.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: That happened to you?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Several times.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was a, uh, um, it's a separate program, but, um.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds like a winner.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was one of the most rewarding projects of my life.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: But, but yes, there was a lot of methanol stuff.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, but in her case, uh, yeah.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the engine goes off and it becomes a glider, right?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: Just like when the engine quits in your car,
• 56:10
  you shift it into neutral and you roll until you hopefully get
• 56:12
  to a gas station,
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: but at least you get to the side of the road.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's the same scenario.
• 56:15
  So if you're over an airport or you're over someplace,
• 56:17
  you can put it down.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that big a deal.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, right.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: And has there ever been a moment where you were like, that's enough?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: there's been a couple,
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: there's been a couple,
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: but obviously you're still doing it.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's, um,
• 56:38
  I think there's a lot of people that do what I do that come in
• 56:41
  with a lot of swagger.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: I try, I don't, I don't think I'm that guy.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not the guy telling you that I'm the baddest dude ever.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so swagger is a part of it.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not like,
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: it's one thing to be in a room like this and tell you I'm the best ever.
• 56:53
  It's another thing to realize that like you're dealing with the
• 56:56
  unknown and you
• 56:57
  have to have some amount of confidence in yourself to handle
• 56:59
  the problems of the day,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: or you're not going to get in the air.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: So you,
• 57:02
  so you approach the vehicle with confidence and you believe I'm
• 57:04
  the right guy for
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: the job.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm prepared.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 57:07
  There's a thing when you're in the airplane and you've got all
• 57:09
  your bells and
• 57:10
  whistles out and you're spinning all your plates and you you're
• 57:12
  running out of
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: ideas and the things kind of things are going haywire fast.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I've destroyed three airplanes.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh, all were pretty close calls.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: And in all those cases,
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: it was,
• 57:23
  I was kind of down to the threads of ideas and that's a really
• 57:27
  unfun place to be.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other side is that if we're talking about marketable skills,
• 57:32
  that's something that hopefully I can provide to a customer is
• 57:35
  some of that realism
• 57:36
  about like what we're really dealing with here as far as what
• 57:39
  it looks like when
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: things go sideways.
• 57:42
  But the reality is that you're limited to your sort of
• 57:44
  storytelling to be able to
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: communicate to the owner.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the other side is that in my case, I'm worried about my pink butt.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: In their case,
• 57:51
  they're worried about whether or not they're going to make this
• 57:53
  next funding round
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: or whether it's going to have to go get a real job or whatever.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there's sort of a fundamental...
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: base level, but I try not to make it that.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: We just try to talk about the risk to your vehicle and to your program.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've destroyed three craft,
• 58:07
  does that mean you parachuted out or what's the worst thing
• 58:12
  that happened to you?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, I've never had to parachute out.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: There was twice I was told by ground crew to bail out and I didn't.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that makes me smart or dumb.
• 58:21
  I guess since I'm still here,
• 58:22
  like since I was able to get the thing down.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: everything's fine,
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: all the cases we're talking about,
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: effectively a hard off airport landing,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: that destroyed,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: the vehicle or totaled the aircraft.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you walked away.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: All so far.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: We do actually, we have a, at least like a forward.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: and like,
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: is,
• 58:49
  is this type of job because you're dependent on these new
• 58:53
  programs and it's,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: it has these ups and downs.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have to do stuff?
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: In the interim between gigs?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's always other stuff kicking around.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: The airshow company that I mentioned before,
• 59:07
  there was a lot less flight testing in that job and a lot more
• 59:10
  technical sales.
• 59:11
  If we're being honest,
• 59:15
  right now I've been spending a lot of time moving airplanes for people.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: I spend a lot of time as a tester.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're sort of orbiting over the same airport all the time.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're working something in the cockpit,
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: so where you are geographically doesn't matter,
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: so why add any risk so you stay over the airport?
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I had some time,
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: I had a profitable summer and so I,
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: I taken some time to just move airplanes for people.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: So like for the last three,
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: four months,
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've just been flying around the country,
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: moving weird stuff.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: Who wants airplanes moved?
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it turns out there's a lot of people that need airplanes moved.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, the reality is it's not really great paying work.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it ends, it typically goes to sort of lower level guys.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: and so if you come in with a fair amount of experience,
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: we have,
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: like I said,
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: we're from a lot of different kinds of airplanes.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: I got a fair amount of time flying.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes easy to insure.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, all flying comes down to insurance.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's really nothing to do with the FAA.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: It just comes down to whether or not you can get insured.
• 1:00:01
  So the background I have,
• 1:00:02
  I can,
• 1:00:03
  I can get a lot of,
• 1:00:04
  I can fly a lot of stuff.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, there's a lot of opportunity.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: Cause it like putting a private jet somewhere.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:00:10
  you bought an airplane and it's in Massachusetts and you'd love
• 1:00:13
  to go get it,
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: but you,
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: boy,
• 1:00:14
  you got to work the next two weeks and your wife really wants
• 1:00:16
  to see the airplane or,
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: you need your phone needs to be moved for paint or,
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: just coming out of maintenance and you,
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: you builded the maintenance and he's in,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: there's one right now in,
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:00:28
  Uh,
• 1:00:28
  with San Jose and he's got,
• 1:00:30
  uh,
• 1:00:31
  the airplane's been down for three years.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a, it's a racer, you know, fire breather.
• 1:00:35
  And,
• 1:00:36
  um,
• 1:00:36
  he doesn't,
• 1:00:37
  he's not really qualified to do the first flight out in the thing.
• 1:00:39
  And then,
• 1:00:39
  you know,
• 1:00:39
  he thinks he wants to ferry it,
• 1:00:41
  but he probably won't.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: And, uh, he needs some dual.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: He needs somebody to get him spooled up when he gets there.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I'm an instructor.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've flown the things before.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've dealt with the funky systems.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: so it ends up being actually similar to some of the flight test stuff,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: but you get the payoff of getting to actually go somewhere,
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: which I don't usually get to do,
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: which is fun.
• 1:00:57
  What's like the most lucrative job you could be doing with your
• 1:01:00
  skills that you're
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: not doing because you want to keep...
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: Flying?
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: The unmanned flight test and in general unmanned operation of aircraft is
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: surprisingly profitable.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you're in a building guiding something.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that's directly flight tests.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if you just look at the,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: aviation,
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: then like the Bizjet guys,
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: like if you're,
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: all the names in Southern California,
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: Kardashian and Ashton Kutcher and,
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Musk,
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: they all have like fleets of jets and people that fly them.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: And these are people that need to be
• 1:01:36
  professional and outward facing they need to be able to operate
• 1:01:38
  the best equipment
• 1:01:39
  that's out there in a very professional manner they need to be
• 1:01:41
  able to respond
• 1:01:42
  immediately and then disappear for a week because you know musk
• 1:01:44
  wants to go to
• 1:01:45
  galapagos uh and so it's you know associated the price goes up
• 1:01:50
  but and it's just
• 1:01:52
  well you have a family you got two young kids i mean and you
• 1:01:56
  have this passion for
• 1:01:57
  what you do i mean i could see all kinds of reasons you don't
• 1:01:59
  want to but that's is
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: that um did i tick off the major boxes
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: every time I reach a milestone,
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: we,
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: we tick off a box,
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: and finish a program.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of find yourself looking at them and being like, is this enough?
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, have, have I done enough?
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: Can I take myself, take the pressure off myself and throttle back?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: you mentioned the kids,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: cause the,
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: most of the jobs we're talking about,
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: you're still gone a lot.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: so like,
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: is there a solution that allows you to do a lot of this stuff and,
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: and be closer to home?
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like I constantly struggle with it,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: but the reality is like,
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: this morning,
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: I woke up at four o'clock and I couldn't sleep or until now.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: And what was I thinking about?
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about polities and airplanes.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking,
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: that's,
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: that's just,
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: unfortunately it's,
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: or unfortunately the fire's still pretty.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've asked you the big questions I want to ask you.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to ask you a couple of dumb last questions.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so when you watch Top Gun, have you watched?
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, are you, are you, uh,
• 1:02:57
  Are you enjoying it like many of the rest of us,
• 1:03:01
  or it's just goofy or annoying?
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because these are the annoying guys who show up for the jobs.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's that bit, but hopefully I'm mature enough to handle that.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: On my best days, we'll say I'm mature enough to handle that.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think it was a really, really poignant moment.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: I saw the movie.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was on a gig,
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: so I was out of town,
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: and just the night it came out or whatever,
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: me and some homies went and looked at it,
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: and that's fine.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: and then I came back,
• 1:03:26
  I was home for the weekend and I grabbed my boys and we went to
• 1:03:29
  a movie theater
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: here in town or nearby.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, so this is the new one.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is the new one.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I mean, there's, they weren't around.
• 1:03:37
  Um,
• 1:03:38
  and we saw on screen,
• 1:03:39
  you know,
• 1:03:40
  a dramatic,
• 1:03:41
  uh,
• 1:03:41
  interpretation of something they see me do.
• 1:03:44
  And we're sitting in theater seats underneath the supersonic
• 1:03:47
  corridor of Edwards,
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: something I didn't even know about when I saw the movie myself.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought this stuff was cool.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now they have like all this cool context and, uh, it was cool.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: A moment of like feeling like I was sharing with them and feeling like,
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: like maybe we did something.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to physically get here.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to do aviation enough that they saw me do it.
• 1:04:05
  And now they see it on screen and maybe it helps them sort of
• 1:04:07
  see that they can do
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: stuff in the world.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: How much beach volleyball happens in the test pilot?
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cornerstone.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, we don't like to talk about it.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how it is in the movie.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty proud.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's something like the right stuff, the book.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: Was that a thing for you?
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: The right stuff is,
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: if there's a movie or like a piece of literature,
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: like that's really important,
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: especially out here at right stuff is much bigger deal than,
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: than Topcon or Maverick.
• 1:04:35
  Yeah.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like in that, that's something you read growing up or.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: those stories are,
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: are here and that that's,
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: those are the,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: the totems of this world.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: Poncho's,
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: the wreckage of Poncho's,
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: rodeo or whatever you want to call her bar.
• 1:04:51
  is here and that,
• 1:04:52
  you know,
• 1:04:52
  do people go there once a year to celebrate it?
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because I remember reading about this bar and then there's a,
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: there's a bar that's kind of got like,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: Winging of Prayer is what you're thinking of.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's got an airplane stick outside of it.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's one that says something about the,
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: the,
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: the men who walk through these doors or,
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: or,
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's just right here near the airport somewhere.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: there's like,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: it looks like a test pilot bar,
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: but now,
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: and now that you're saying that where,
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_01: where's,
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_01: where's,
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: where's Poncho?
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Poncho's the, the, the rubble that was her.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: So basically what happened was they, they needed to make the base bigger.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not an expert.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's further away.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's Poncho's was not in, uh, right here, right?
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it was on the south side of Edwards.
• 1:05:36
  My understanding,
• 1:05:37
  I don't know anything,
• 1:05:37
  but the fence is now on the other side of it.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't get to it without base access.
• 1:05:41
  Okay.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: Just south of where the base is,
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: there's another bar that comes and goes,
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: but it has historically been called Winging a Prayer.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: And all the testers in the area,
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_00: there's like patches all over the roof and there's like,
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: an airplane sticking in the top of it,
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: that kind of stuff.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that, it may or may not be active right now.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:05:56
  And then the other one is the Society of Experimental Test
• 1:05:58
  Pilots was founded in a
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_00: bar that is,
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: but it was a hotel at the time,
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: but it's in Rosemond just south of here.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a strip club for a while.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think they're selling weed out of there right now.
• 1:06:09
  but that but it doesn't have anything you wouldn't know it
• 1:06:11
  driving by that has
• 1:06:12
  anything to do with aviation but it's right by the edward gate
• 1:06:14
  sounds great the the
• 1:06:17
  society of experimental pilots test pilots is that that's just
• 1:06:21
  a group of uh yeah
• 1:06:23
  so back to your kind we were talking earlier there's no rating
• 1:06:26
  for flight tests
• 1:06:27
  there's no rating to be a test pilot so uh it's a merit-based
• 1:06:29
  organization so you
• 1:06:30
  have to prove that you've done enough flight tests and you've
• 1:06:32
  got the credentials
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: and then you're you know you get a pin and then you're a member
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: In the United States,
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: without any other way to say I'm a test pilot,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: that's the most official thing.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you're, you're in.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:42
  So for me,
• 1:06:42
  um,
• 1:06:43
  as a civvy,
• 1:06:44
  uh,
• 1:06:44
  to become a test,
• 1:06:45
  a member of the society was a really big deal.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: And at the time I wasn't flying for scale.
• 1:06:50
  So I had to get in on my own merit using outside flight tests
• 1:06:53
  that I'd done mostly
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: in Reno racers,
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: which was,
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was very,
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm,
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: I am very proud of that.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was a hard thing to do.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, that is cool.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's very cool.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, last thing.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned getting notes from youngsters and other people,
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: and this is primarily through your YouTube channel?
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, yeah.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, YouTube, email, Instagram.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: And this is people watching you do your, your racing and your exploits.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: So like,
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's not an uncommon career thing that you,
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:26
  graduate engineering school and you go out into the world and
• 1:07:28
  you see that,
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: these guys get to do engineering and they get to fly.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that seems like a good thing to do.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got a pod's license.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's the difference?
• 1:07:34
  And so you start reaching out to people that seem to have been
• 1:07:36
  able to make the transition.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what's typically,
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: sort of 22 to 28 male engineering background,
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: private pilot or early commercial pilot.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: He's been doing a little bit of acro.
• 1:07:48
  He might flew an RV or something like that,
• 1:07:50
  done a little bit of experimental stuff.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: He wants to chat about it.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: All right,
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm being a jerk because we're putting the plug in at the end,
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: but I'll put it in the show notes,
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: but where should people,
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: what do they look for to find?
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's under Wasabi or under my name.
• 1:08:04
  There's plenty of ways to get ahold of me by my phone numbers
• 1:08:05
  all over the internet.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: in the earlier conversation,
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm crippled by the fact that I can't respond as much as I do,
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: especially like before I flew everywhere in my little airplane,
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: I used to drive everywhere.
• 1:08:17
  I put 120,000 miles on my truck a year before I started flying everywhere.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I would just put on my flying headset so I'd had a boom mic.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these guys, I just talked to, you know, whatever.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: How long you want to talk?
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_00: I got to talk to, I got to drive for six hours.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter to me.
• 1:08:28
  And then,
• 1:08:28
  um,
• 1:08:29
  and I,
• 1:08:29
  the big thing is the guys I'm able to talk to,
• 1:08:31
  and I try as much as I can.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I say, give me feedback.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let me know what happened.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where'd you end up?
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_00: What'd you do?
• 1:08:36
  Did you,
• 1:08:36
  you know,
• 1:08:37
  did you decide to go take that biz jet job or do you stay as an engineer?
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_00: Were you able to find a flight test gig?
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: Were you able to get a, you know, FTE thing somewhere?
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, cause like, that's a wild world.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's lots going on.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_00: So.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: We make me very jealous anytime I've ever been in,
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: not like a fancy private plane,
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: but somebody's plane they have in a hangar.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always like, oh, you did life better than I did.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can just go where you want to go when you want to go there.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish I had gotten my pilot's license a long time ago.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cheat code.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can get it done.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_00: You've still got time.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a cheat code,
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: especially in an urban area,
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_00: like with a lot of airports like Los Angeles,
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_00: and with all the traffic in Los Angeles.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: it takes me,
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: I do a lot of work in,
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_00: Chino,
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_00: down in like,
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: like Torrance,
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: Long Beach,
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: and then Camarillo.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_00: Either, any of those are two and a half, three hour drives.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: So 30 minutes,
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: every one of those 30 minutes in my room,
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: which means if I need to take a meeting in my truck,
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: it's one meeting a day.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: If I got the plane,
• 1:09:31
  I can do three or four in a day and I still get home in time to
• 1:09:33
  see the kids.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's phenomenal.
• 1:09:35
  And the United States is,
• 1:09:37
  as far as I know,
• 1:09:37
  the only country that's like this with all these.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's certainly easier here than anywhere else.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I will remain jealous.
• 1:09:45
  I don't think I'm going to put in the time to get my license,
• 1:09:47
  even though I do.
• 1:09:48
  I have,
• 1:09:49
  there have been times in my life when I've thought quite seriously.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_00: Six months and on the order of 10 grand, you can do it.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now that I, you know, I just need to call you.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be happy to take it through.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you can find something easier than me, but I'm happy to take it.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Elliot, thanks so much.
• 1:10:07
  It's always like my favorite thing to hang with you when we
• 1:10:11
  come to Mojave and
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: you're always generous.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate you reaching out.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a great, great chance to catch up.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: See you.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: All right, man.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, safe, safe travels and we can't wait to see what you do next.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:10:29
  core memory is hosted by me ashley vance today's guest was
• 1:10:33
  elliot segwin the show
• 1:10:35
  is produced by me and david nicholson our theme music is by
• 1:10:39
  james mercer and john
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_01: sortland and the show is edited by the john sortland have a great week