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Oliver Hartwich: NZ Initiative Executive Director says Ministers should be responsible for appointing public agency leaders · Early Edition with Ryan Bridge

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  Speaker 1: Right now. The New Zealand Initiative reckons think tank reckons
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  Speaker 1: that Ministers of the Crown here should have the power
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  Speaker 1: to fire their department's CEOs on of a heart, which
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  Speaker 1: the New Zealand Initiative executive directed with me this morning
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  Speaker 1: on of a good morning, good morning. So why do
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  Speaker 1: you Well, first of all, what's the reason we don't
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  Speaker 1: let them do it at the moment.
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  Speaker 2: Well, the reason is actually that since nineteen eighty eight,
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  Speaker 2: the Public Service Commission has been in charge of appointing
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  Speaker 2: department chief executives. It's quite an unusual scenario really, because
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  Speaker 2: most people think when we vought for a government, the
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  Speaker 2: government has the rights to basically govern as they like
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  Speaker 2: and as they promise them their manifestos. But in fact
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  Speaker 2: it's actually the Public Service Commission that appoints the department
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  Speaker 2: chief executives, and very few other countries there for system
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  Speaker 2: like that.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, but they can say, the minister can say I
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  Speaker 1: don't have confidence in so and so and that. I
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  Speaker 1: mean they normally sort it out. Did they need to
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  Speaker 1: be able to pull the lever themselves.
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  Speaker 2: I think it would be a lot cleaner, because I mean,
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  Speaker 2: if you think about it this way, you might be
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  Speaker 2: a minister just sworn in, but the department se has
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  Speaker 2: been reappointed by the previous government under the Public Service
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  Speaker 2: Commissioner back then, and then you spent your entire term
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  Speaker 2: working with someone who you haven't picked, who might not
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  Speaker 2: be happy with you, and vice versa, and that actually
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  Speaker 2: doesn't work well. Then to implement the government's agenda.
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  Speaker 1: Can you give me an example of where this hasn't
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  Speaker 1: worked or why this hasn't worked.
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  Speaker 2: Well? I mean, if you look at the resource management
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  Speaker 2: reforms currently going through parliament. So the coalition agreement was
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  Speaker 2: crystal clear what they wanted to achieve was a new
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  Speaker 2: resource management system based on property rights. We got a
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  Speaker 2: cabinet paper in twenty four which promised just that, and
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  Speaker 2: when you look at the draft legislation now before Parliament,
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  Speaker 2: there is very little of that's still in there, and
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  Speaker 2: we can suspect that the bureaucracy simply watered down the
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  Speaker 2: plants that they didn't like.
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  Speaker 1: What are they do in Germany?
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  Speaker 2: Well, in Germany, under the constitution, the minister is in
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  Speaker 2: charge of the ministry. It's articled sixty five of the
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  Speaker 2: Basic Law and that basically makes the Minister the chief
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  Speaker 2: second Now In practice, of course, it means the minister's
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  Speaker 2: appoint a state secretary and the state secretary runs the
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  Speaker 2: department on their behalf. And that state secretary has to
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  Speaker 2: be qualified so as a clear qualification requirement under the law.
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  Speaker 2: But also it's someone that the minister can trust. So
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  Speaker 2: it's a political appointment. But the rest of the public
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  Speaker 2: service is totally neutral. So the political appointments are really
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  Speaker 2: for the top tier of public servants, but nothing underneath.
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  Speaker 2: The rest is totally protected. There are guard rails, there
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  Speaker 2: is a whistleblower clause and actually if you ever try
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  Speaker 2: to do anything unlawful in Germany, the public service has
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  Speaker 2: a duty to object to that. So it is not
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  Speaker 2: a job for Maid's scheme. It is something with guard rails,
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  Speaker 2: but it ensures that the government of the day can
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  Speaker 2: implement their gender.
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  Speaker 1: Appreciate your time. Oliver Hartwitz, New Zealand Initiative Executive directed For.
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