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85. Reclaiming Ancestors, Embodiment & Collective Healing with Tanja Meyburgh · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world.
• 0:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy
• 0:26
  Tanja Meyburgh: this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia ora everyone.
• 0:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Today I have the utmost pleasure, this has been a long time coming, of, um, having Tania Myburgh as my guest.
• 0:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome, Tania
• 0:46
  Tanja Meyburgh: Thank you so much, Tracey
• 0:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Now, I just wanna ask, is it Tanya or Tania or…'Cause you've got a J-A in your name.
• 0:54
  Tanja Meyburgh: So the way we say it in South Africa is Tanya.
• 0:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Tanya.
• 0:58
  Tanja Meyburgh: But I am used to many different iterations with different accents, but yes, we j- we just say Tanya.
• 1:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, good.
• 1:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Good, good, good.
• 1:05
  Tracy Cartwright: I forgot to ask you before we started, so… Yeah, welcome.
• 1:09
  Tracy Cartwright: I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself for the listeners and the viewers.
• 1:13
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm, yeah, I'm pretty sure most people would probably know who you are, but you never know.
• 1:19
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, well, I, I guess I have been in this, uh, in this work for quite a while.
• 1:25
  Tanja Meyburgh: Uh, I started, I did my first training in 2002 already, um, at what was called then Syst in Germany, um, which later became Bernd Reut and Kochl.
• 1:37
  Tanja Meyburgh: So I've been going at it for a very long time, and I live in South Africa.
• 1:41
  Tanja Meyburgh: I live in Cape Town, and most of the time that I've been working with constellations has really been pioneering in South Africa.
• 1:49
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm. There was very few people who knew what it was when I started here.
• 1:54
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so working in a multicultural context, working in a post-colonial, post-apartheid context has really shaped a lot of my work.
• 2:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: And one of the big things that, that I also spent a long time doing, because there was no recognition of the knowledge lineage root of constellation work, um, that originated in South Africa.
• 2:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, not constellation work originated, but, uh- Mm … it's, it hits one of the roots.
• 2:19
  Tanja Meyburgh: And that wasn't really seen enough in, in my opinion, when I started, so that's been a big piece is, is trying to have that acknowledged and, and, and show that there is, um, a considerable amount of knowledge that Bert Hellinger has integrated into the method- Mm um, from South Africa.
• 2:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Um- Is this the knowledge from the Zulu or, or Zetu or more?
• 2:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yes.
• 2:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 2:43
  Tanja Meyburgh: I think, well, m- particularly from the Zulu.
• 2:46
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, he was, um, here to minister to, um, the Zulu people in Kwa- KwaZulu-Natal, so he lived amongst them for 16 years as a missionary.
• 2:58
  Tanja Meyburgh: Wow.
• 2:58
  Tanja Meyburgh: Wow.
• 2:59
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I just think, you know, to live somewhere in a country for 16 years, there's so many influences that infiltrate, never mind the fact that you're working with people's spirituality and with the way that they engage with the world, uh, on so many levels when you're ministering to somebody.
• 3:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: So, um, you know, there, there, there's a lot of, there's a lot of knowledge that thr- shows through.
• 3:24
  Tanja Meyburgh: But, uh, more recently, um, you know, my own work has developed as well, and I'm not just a constellator.
• 3:32
  Tanja Meyburgh: I also do movement and, um, I'm a psychotherapist.
• 3:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 3:38
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, mostly working with supervision and advanced training, so really, really interested in the body and embodiment.
• 3:44
  Tanja Meyburgh: And also with land as a subject that came up a lot in my own- Yeah… self-reflection as a, as a facilitator.
• 3:53
  Tanja Meyburgh: So yeah, I think that's a bit of a summary of, of, of who I am and what I do.
• 3:58
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, but maybe we'll- Wonderful… Tracy Cartwright: have a chat.
• 4:01
  Tracy Cartwright: One… Yeah, no, that's great.
• 4:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, how did you, you personally, how did you come to constellations or how did constellations come to you?
• 4:10
  Tanja Meyburgh: So I, I was really lucky because somebody, um, who knows me very well, that I'd done a art therapy training with, suggested that I come along to something that was happening in her therapist's living room.
• 4:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 4:23
  Tanja Meyburgh: And what it was was it was, uh, all Dr. Ursula Franke doing a demonstration about constellations in Cape Town while she was here, um, on holiday.
• 4:33
  Tanja Meyburgh: And we sat in the room and she asked who would like to do a constellation.
• 4:38
  Tanja Meyburgh: I didn't even know what it was.
• 4:39
  Tanja Meyburgh: I didn't know why I was there.
• 4:40
  Tanja Meyburgh: I just trusted the person who asked, who said I should go.
• 4:44
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and nobody put their hand up, and I'm just one of those people who's like, "Ag, why, why not? I'll just put my hand up." And what followed was just an incredibly powerful experience for myself, which made me understand things about myself, my mom, my dad, my, my whole family system, that, that just made a, a lot of things click into place.
• 5:04
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I think that experience was so powerful that I knew then and there why I'd been referred to this work.
• 5:11
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and I went straight to go and study in it.
• 5:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, there is a little- Sounds like me … bit of a backstory.
• 5:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah, I mean, it was really a powerful experience.
• 5:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: The, the backstory is that I had been told a couple of times that I have an ancestral calling, and I couldn't quite work out how to follow that.
• 5:28
  Tanja Meyburgh: And when I experienced the constellation, it was very clear that this was something that- Yeah made a lot of sense to me.
• 5:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, wonderful.
• 5:37
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and so as you shared earlier, you're one of the, um, one of the pioneers in helping to establish constellations in, uh, South Africa.
• 5:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Boy, that must have been quite a feat.
• 5:50
  Tanja Meyburgh: You know, I look back at it now and when some of my students complain about how difficult it is to share the work, I think you have no idea.
• 5:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 5:59
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, I try and stay empathetic, but really in those days, nobody knew what it was.
• 6:05
  Tanja Meyburgh: Every single person that I met, I had to explain from scratch what was happening.
• 6:10
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 6:10
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, it was… I, I, I liken it to, like, you know, chopping through a jungle in a way.
• 6:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: You know, there's no path yet.
• 6:17
  Tanja Meyburgh: There's nothing.
• 6:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, and you've just gotta, like, kind of go around every obstacle, and it was a lot of, you know, speaking to groups who knew nothing about it and, and, and learning just by, by trying.
• 6:30
  Tanja Meyburgh: And in the end, of course, what I realized was the best things are to do it rather than to talk about it, so demonstrations, and, um, and also word of mouth.
• 6:41
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, that's really the powerful way to, to spread things.
• 6:45
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and the other thing that was interesting for me to encounter in South Africa was the fact that there's already many ancestral traditions here, and so what I was bringing, I had to be really mindful how, how I was bringing it because this is a, a work that was developed by a, a German psychotherapist, or Bert Hellinger, and I was bringing it back into a place where there's already active ancestral traditions.
• 7:09
  Tanja Meyburgh: So there was some wariness and some difficulties for people to sort of wonder, "What is this?" Like,"It's come from the West." Yeah.
• 7:17
  Tanja Meyburgh: "Is it trustworthy?"
• 7:19
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and also- Mm-hmm … as you say, you know, there was that, there was the, the undercurrent or the, the stuff that it was received, the information, the, the m- memories that were brought through from, with Bert, that he had also received while he was in South Africa.
• 7:36
  Tracy Cartwright: So it's kind of like this going out and coming back in and finding a way to make it land, right?
• 7:43
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:44
  Tanja Meyburgh: And we, and, and we, you know… You could really see how, um, like in many places in the Western world, anything to do with ancestors, uh, was demonized by the church.
• 7:56
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so there was a, there was a lot of, um, there were a lot of people who were sort of asking whether you can do this if you're a Christian, and h- how does that go together, because many of the churches said you couldn't practice your ancestral traditions.
• 8:10
  Tanja Meyburgh: So I, you know, I met a lot of skepticism and concern- Yeah … about how this could fit within one's spiritual belief system.
• 8:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: Like, is it really a psychology or is it a spiritual thing, or where does it fit?
• 8:26
  Tanja Meyburgh: Which wasn't always so easy for me, because I come from a psychology background.
• 8:30
  Tanja Meyburgh: So I- I can speak all the languages in a way.
• 8:35
  Tracy Cartwright: So how do you describe it?
• 8:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Or how do, how… And how has that changed from when you first started to, to now, how do you describe it?
• 8:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: I think the difference is that when I first started, I would try and describe the method.
• 8:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 8:47
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, you know, and that just confused people.
• 8:50
  Tanja Meyburgh: They just couldn't picture it and couldn't understand it.
• 8:53
  Tanja Meyburgh: And now what I do is I try to speak more to what kind of difficulties could one be experiencing because of an ancestral entanglement or a transgenerational trauma, and how that might show up and, and how that might find some kind of resolution through looking at it and seeing it, um, and acknowledging it.
• 9:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: So it's more- I love that, that, that, yeah … about what's the problem and, yeah.
• 9:21
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 9:22
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, and, and what can you get out of it, rather than the method.
• 9:24
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, and that makes so much sense for me because actually no therapists really explain their method, that you just go to a therapist and they might use whatever method.
• 9:33
  Tanja Meyburgh: You don't often know what method they are using.
• 9:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 9:37
  Tracy Cartwright: And that kind of tie what you were saying before about, um, you would give examples, but at the beginning you were trying to, to talk about it, and then when you're sharing now about how you describe it, it's the same thing, isn't it?
• 9:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Giving an example of how it might help rather than trying to discuss or share the process.
• 9:57
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 9:57
  Tanja Meyburgh: Absolutely.
• 9:58
  Tanja Meyburgh: I don't know if- So in those days, you know, I, everything that I learned from the first generation teachers, we learned by doing constellations in a big circle, and there weren't that many mini constellations or sort of more training structures that have been developed over the years.
• 10:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm.
• 10:16
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and what I would do now is not necessarily do a whole big constellation, but do something in a way that people, many people haven't experienced by doing a small movements of the soul or a mini constellation.
• 10:29
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, so that, so that the, again, you know, it's the experience that, that introduces people to the work and, and, and really lets them see that, the power that's there rather than trying to access it through the mind.
• 10:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. What excites me about that too is I've, I find that- I don't know if you find this, but I find that often people go, "Oh, this makes sense. This makes sense to how I've been sort of like living quietly, closety." Um, the work allows them to, uh, to maybe be seen a little bit more.
• 11:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: Absolutely, yeah.
• 11:03
  Tanja Meyburgh: There's a recognition for many people- Yeah or a sense of, "Oh, okay," like, "I can feel that this makes sense," um, even if it doesn't really make sense.
• 11:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 11:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Tell me a little bit about the embodiment, 'cause I know that I've seen that you infuse that a little bit in your work, too, don't you?
• 11:22
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah, more and more these days.
• 11:24
  Tanja Meyburgh: As I, um, move into more advanced training, um, I feel like I can integrate more of who I am as a, as a therapist and, and, you know, in the basic work it's, uh, training it's quite important that people experience constellations in its pure form.
• 11:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, but I'm actually trained in many different things, and one of them is, um, conscious dance.
• 11:49
  Tanja Meyburgh: Obviously, when I was working with constellations or actually as a general in the international field realized that deep embodiment would be helpful for the work, and it was the early trainers who started reflecting on things like re-traumatization or difficulties that were being experienced by clients.
• 12:08
  Tanja Meyburgh: And now actually we see a lot more embodiment in constellation work than I saw 20, 25 years ago.
• 12:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and you know, that a lot of people went and studied the somatic experiencing or other types of body, uh, therapy.
• 12:26
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and I started early on actually also looking into that and seeing what to use, and I wrote my master's thesis on it.
• 12:34
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I never, I never quite resonated fully with somatic experiencing just in, in my own process.
• 12:41
  Tanja Meyburgh: I had a number of sessions myself.
• 12:43
  Tanja Meyburgh: Whereas the dance took me to places that I wasn't able to go in other ways.
• 12:49
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so I think just deepening the embodiment through understanding the body, understanding trance states, understanding how to, to, um, to get somebody to- Increase their interoception and increase their proprioception, um, actually also helps people become better representatives, or when I say better representative, representatives that are more in contact with their own body and what's happening in, in space.
• 13:19
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm-hmm.
• 13:19
  Tanja Meyburgh: Because it's actually a skill that you can develop and a- Yeah … a muscle that you build.
• 13:25
  Tanja Meyburgh: So now I actually integrate the movement into the constellation work and, um, s- do some moving constellations, some rituals where we move and constellate, and it's become a full integration.
• 13:36
  Tanja Meyburgh: I don't do it all the time, but it's one of the things that I offer and, um, and it's really pow- Right, I
• 13:42
  Tracy Cartwright: was gonna ask you that.
• 13:43
  Tracy Cartwright: How would you do that?
• 13:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 13:46
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 13:46
  Tanja Meyburgh: Well, I mean, w- one of the things is it's a great warm-up to doing constellation work.
• 13:51
  Tanja Meyburgh: So getting people really, like, comfortable and in their bodies and kind of sensing and, and able to kind of, um, orientate themselves in space, which- Mm … makes them more, uh, sensitive representatives.
• 14:07
  Tanja Meyburgh: But also, one of the things about constellation work that troubled me for many years was that the integration needed to always happen after people had left the workshop, because we w- we were always advised not to speak about the constellation.
• 14:24
  Tanja Meyburgh: And what we can do with the movement and with the embodiment is that we can do some integration without speaking about the constellation.
• 14:32
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so when people leave, there's already an integration process happening.
• 14:37
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um- Mm … and I just find that really creates incredibly powerful container that allows us to go very deep, um, in the work.
• 14:46
  Tanja Meyburgh: Not that we don't go deep normally, but… Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:50
  Tanja Meyburgh: I was just thinking- Yeah … is there a way to give me an example or to give the listeners an example in our mind's eye?
• 14:58
  Tanja Meyburgh: How that would… What, what I was trained to work with is called a shamanic wave, um, which is a, a way of working with a playlist and w- with instruction while people are moving to help them- Mm … to enter into, um, a ki- a- an embodied trance.
• 15:17
  Tanja Meyburgh: So it's not a transcendent state like we're going out of ourselves to go and find something.
• 15:22
  Tanja Meyburgh: We're going deeper in to see what's, what's moving and what's happening there.
• 15:28
  Tanja Meyburgh: And because our ancestors and our experiences and everything is remembered by our body and is, um, kind of present in our epigenes, a lot of things can be accessed in movement that are not possible to… And, and as we know also as representatives, that are not possible to access, um, in other ways just by remembering or by telling the story.
• 15:53
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so, and, and so on the one hand it's, it's deepening, um, relationship with the, with the vehicle that we use in the knowing field.
• 16:04
  Tanja Meyburgh: So this body, when it steps into the knowing field, once it's, it's had a chance to experience multiple waves, I mean, it is something that you build Um, so maybe I should finish what I was saying about the waves.
• 16:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, so basically it takes you into an altered state, but more so in your body and, and raises your heartbeat, um, and allows you to release on a somatic level things that you've been, been holding onto.
• 16:34
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and it'll also allows kind of things to enter then after, after you've released.
• 16:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so it can be really useful, for example, at the end of a workshop when people have been sitting all day and they've been absorbing a lot, to, to go through that kind of wave where a lot of things can be released, um, things that they may be holding, things that have come up in their own story and it may… Uh, it's not necessary to understand what you're releasing.
• 17:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: Your body just does it.
• 17:04
  Tracy Cartwright: I love that.
• 17:04
  Tracy Cartwright: And so- Yeah… Tanja Meyburgh: yeah.
• 17:06
  Tracy Cartwright: It's difficult.
• 17:07
  Tracy Cartwright: It's, again, another thing that's difficult to explain until you've, until you've experienced it.
• 17:11
  Tracy Cartwright: But I think for me what's, what's been really helpful as a facilitator is that I find it excruciating to sit still for a whole day, and it makes me very difficult to attend workshops because I need to move.
• 17:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and I found that there are a lot of people like that, that find the sitting through the whole day quite difficult and, and so the movement brings a kind of a, a release, but it also brings a lightness.
• 17:37
  Tracy Cartwright: And we know that sometimes constellation work can go very, um, deep and, and, and feel a little bit heavy for, for some people.
• 17:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and so in a way, I feel like the movement also makes a space for neurodiversity and for inclusion of people who perhaps don't understand the language so well.
• 17:56
  Tracy Cartwright: So in, in a multicultural setting, um, in international setting, it's been really useful To just in, create another form of communication and expression.
• 18:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, it's brilliant.
• 18:09
  Tracy Cartwright: It's brilliant.
• 18:10
  Tracy Cartwright: My dog's doing a little dance behind us as we're talking.
• 18:13
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't know
• 18:13
  Tanja Meyburgh: if-… Tracy Cartwright: you can hear her.
• 18:16
  Tanja Meyburgh: She's going around and round and round.
• 18:17
  Tanja Meyburgh: Sweet.
• 18:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, I just wanna share this for the listeners and the viewers too.
• 18:21
  Tracy Cartwright: This is an amazing book, your book, Reclaiming Ancestors.
• 18:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, Modern Paths to Ancient Ways: Reclaiming Ancestors.
• 18:28
  Tracy Cartwright: If you haven't seen it or read it, peeps, please get your hands on a copy.
• 18:33
  Tracy Cartwright: So- Mm-hmm … tell us a little bit about this for those… I took this with me.
• 18:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, I remember sending you a picture.
• 18:40
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm trying to get it into the, into view here.
• 18:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, it's 'cause I'm blurry.
• 18:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, there we go.
• 18:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, I was on a boat in Vietnam cruising around the harbor, and I sent you a picture.
• 18:50
  Tanja Meyburgh: Loved… I loved seeing that picture.
• 18:52
  Tanja Meyburgh: It was beautiful.
• 18:53
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 18:53
  Tanja Meyburgh: I think the book has traveled quite a lot into different places.
• 18:56
  Tanja Meyburgh: It's been a, it's been such a gift to see people sending pictures of the book from all over the world.
• 19:01
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, yeah, so I knew I had to write a book for a long time, and a lot of my colleagues and teachers were encouraging me, but I just didn't know what to write.
• 19:11
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so getting some mentoring in that, the, the, the suggestion was really to start with your own experience, to start with your own story.
• 19:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so, you know, it's quite exposing.
• 19:23
  Tanja Meyburgh: There's quite a lot of personal, um, stuff in, in the book, so it's not just a, a manual on how to do constellation work.
• 19:31
  Tanja Meyburgh: It's more about a journey of reclaiming ancestors, and for me, reclaiming ancestors means reclaiming the people from our lineages that have been forgotten and excluded, but it also means reclaiming things that have been forcibly taken away.
• 19:49
  Tanja Meyburgh: So things like land and, um, and spirituality, and, and so I go into the book, it's really in the end about my path as a Western woman trying to find my way through an ancestral calling into an African tradition and the f- reflection- Yeah … of that.
• 20:08
  Tanja Meyburgh: You know, how do I do that without, you know, appropriating and sort of doing something that's, that's not mine to do?
• 20:16
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I resisted it for 15 years, but eventually I did it.
• 20:22
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and so I had, like, the longest training in, in the history I think of anyone who did that path, you know, as I was questioning.
• 20:30
  Tanja Meyburgh: And but all that questioning was really helpful because I realized that it's so much bigger than just us.
• 20:37
  Tanja Meyburgh: You know, there's so many systems that are f- at play that have s- have s- have looked to, uh, disempower us and to separate us from things that give us health and give us strength and give us vitality.
• 20:50
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, and that's what I talk about in the book.
• 20:53
  Tanja Meyburgh: Like, what are those things and how d- you know, how did those things happen?
• 20:57
  Tanja Meyburgh: I also speak about how I think, um, you know, Hellinger's work, like the fact of how much was taken… Well, I don't wanna say taken.
• 21:06
  Tanja Meyburgh: How much was received in South Africa.
• 21:09
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 21:09
  Tanja Meyburgh: That that wasn't so, so deeply acknowledged.
• 21:11
  Tanja Meyburgh: Like, why was that?
• 21:13
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so I speak a little bit to that.
• 21:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, but ultimately it's about how you can reclaim a, a relationship with your ancestors that, that's not only based in what were their traumas and what were their entanglements, but also what were their… What's the beauty?
• 21:27
  Tanja Meyburgh: What's the joy?
• 21:28
  Tanja Meyburgh: How can I develop a relationship?
• 21:30
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I think that, for me, was the difference between constellation work and the traditional African lineage, um, that I'm trained in, is that in that lineage we spend a lot of time developing a relationship with ancestors and developing a communication with ancestors in a way that is, um, supportive and guiding and puts us in a position where we have them as our elders.
• 21:55
  Tanja Meyburgh: And it's not only when we're in a constellation workshop that we're connecting to them.
• 22:00
  Tanja Meyburgh: We actually have a possibility to, to develop that ra- relationship really rich and deep, um, that also as facilitators supports our work.
• 22:11
  Tanja Meyburgh: It's not only for facilitators, the book.
• 22:13
  Tanja Meyburgh: I've had a lot of laypeople read it, and they also enjoyed reading it.
• 22:16
  Tanja Meyburgh: So it, the idea was to kind of make it quite wide and, and, and see, you know, who would resonate.
• 22:24
  Tanja Meyburgh: And it, and I think it speaks to different, from the beginner to the advanced.
• 22:29
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, yeah.
• 22:29
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:30
  Tanja Meyburgh: My, my wish really is that people have an opportunity to connect to the beauty of their ancestors as well, and to, and to find that path alongside their constellation work.
• 22:41
  Tracy Cartwright: That's fantastic.
• 22:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Uh, when you were talking, I kept getting, and I, I mean, I've never met your daughter, but I kept getting images of your daughter.
• 22:49
  Tracy Cartwright: So I think the question I would like to ask would be something like, how am I g- how do I phrase this?
• 22:55
  Tracy Cartwright: How have, how has this pathway, um, influenced the way you're, you parent?
• 23:03
  Tanja Meyburgh: Great question.
• 23:04
  Tanja Meyburgh: I think what's been very useful for me, because when I first started, I was quite, um, what's the word?
• 23:10
  Tanja Meyburgh: You know, when you, when you learn something for the first time, it becomes kind of a little bit, maybe one gets a little dogmatic.
• 23:16
  Tanja Meyburgh: I'm not sure how to say it without the word.
• 23:19
  Tanja Meyburgh: Dogma's a little bit too strong.
• 23:21
  Tanja Meyburgh: But, um, I remember when my children were young, I would say things like, "You know, I'm the big one. I'm the mommy, and you're the, you're the baby." Like I, you know.
• 23:29
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm-hmm.
• 23:30
  Tanja Meyburgh: And that came back to bite me so badly when my kids were teenagers, because now my son stands next to me, and he's a head taller.
• 23:38
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, and Layla's the same s- uh, size as me now at 14, and she's, and you, you know, and Aiden says, "We're the big ones now, Mommy, and you're the little one." So yeah, there's that.
• 23:49
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, but, but really as a parent, I think, um, the difficult thing has been that there's a kind of an ideal that might be created in- Mm-hmm … in a constellation, like this is what kind of an ideal family looks like, which is, which I don't think was what was intended in the work.
• 24:09
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I'm not an ideal family.
• 24:10
  Tanja Meyburgh: We are a very, a very, um, broken family, actually.
• 24:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, we don't have any contact with the children's father, and I'm a divorced.
• 24:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: And you know, a lot of my students were deeply disappointed in me because of, of these things.
• 24:27
  Tanja Meyburgh: So life happens, you know.
• 24:28
  Tanja Meyburgh: Even if you know a lot and you try and put everything into practice and- Mm-hmm and so, you know, to take one's, the pressure off and the expectations that people have of you as a, as a leader in the work to kind of be perfect- You're also
• 24:44
  Tracy Cartwright: human too, aren't you?
• 24:45
  Tracy Cartwright: We're
• 24:46
  Tanja Meyburgh: human, and we also make bad choices and mistakes and, and, and things happen in ways that we don't want them to happen.
• 24:53
  Tanja Meyburgh: But I think one of the biggest things that this work has given me is an understanding of those that are marginalized and those that are different.
• 25:03
  Tanja Meyburgh: And my children are edge walkers as well.
• 25:07
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, and so they encounter the world in ways that are not always easy.
• 25:12
  Tanja Meyburgh: As Layla's definitely an, uh, you know, she came edge walking between life and, and death.
• 25:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I think just knowing that there is, that there is the ancestral support has been helpful for me, um-
• 25:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah… Tanja Meyburgh: as a parent.
• 25:27
  Tracy Cartwright: It's an interesting- But I also- … term- terminology, isn't it?
• 25:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Edge walker.
• 25:31
  Tracy Cartwright: It's good.
• 25:31
  Tracy Cartwright: It is.
• 25:32
  Tracy Cartwright: No, I like it.
• 25:32
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't think I've heard it used too often.
• 25:35
  Tracy Cartwright: It's a good… Yeah.
• 25:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Sorry for interrupting
• 25:37
  Tanja Meyburgh: you.
• 25:37
  Tanja Meyburgh: No, I think edge walking is something that some, some of us facilitators are edge walkers.
• 25:44
  Tanja Meyburgh: We're working in the realm of, of the edge between life and death when we're working with ancestors.
• 25:50
  Tanja Meyburgh: And s- and, and so many, uh, facilitators come with, with, with special qualities of pattern recognition and able to do things or learn to do things that perhaps mainstream, um, therapists don't.
• 26:05
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 26:05
  Tanja Meyburgh: I don't know what I'm saying.
• 26:07
  Tanja Meyburgh: Maybe this is a bit
• 26:09
  Tracy Cartwright: No, no, no.
• 26:10
  Tracy Cartwright: A bit- Because for me, and you shared it too, it's like you knew that there was the ancestral work that you were gonna do, but like it had been mentioned, but you didn't know what that was gonna be.
• 26:19
  Tracy Cartwright: And for me, constellations allowed parts of me, uh, I guess edge walker would be a really good description of myself without having known that.
• 26:30
  Tracy Cartwright: So it really gave… It f- I found like I found a place For, for myself to bring through what the gifts that I had without being, um, feeling so crazy or on the edge or, um, out there.
• 26:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 26:46
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 26:47
  Tracy Cartwright: And I guess to some- Well, that- … that's, I still do look a little bit like that, but that's okay.
• 26:51
  Tanja Meyburgh: Look, I, I, I think from my observations, it'd be interesting if somebody did a proper research study on this.
• 26:56
  Tanja Meyburgh: I, you know, a lot of, um, the, the, the trainers that I interviewed, you know, the, the first generation trainers for, um, for Real Academy, they often said that they were ADHD and, um, and I'm ADHD, and my kids are as well.
• 27:13
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I think that they, that, that there are quite a high number of neurodiverse people that are attracted into this work because it helps you see things and experience things that, um, you know, that, that, that may not be so easy if you're, um, if you have certain social skills that are, um, different or, or work in, in… your brain works in a different way.
• 27:38
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so that kind of relational field and being able to step into roles.
• 27:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: So I do see quite a lot of neurodiversity in, uh, attracted into constellation work, and I think it's wonderful, um, that it also gives a place and, um, and it makes it nice and spicy in our community, which, which I enjoy.
• 27:57
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so those, you know, I would say neurodiversity is also kind of an edge walk, edge walking.
• 28:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 28:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm. 'Cause there's something that, that you… a way of seeing the world that may, that may not be neurotypical and, um, I think it's exciting.
• 28:11
  Tanja Meyburgh: I love it.
• 28:12
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, I s- I experience it.
• 28:14
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 28:14
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 28:14
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah,
• 28:15
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 28:15
  Tracy Cartwright: It helped me to accept those parts of myself that I'd been rejecting as well, so one of the… but one of the gifts of the work.
• 28:25
  Tracy Cartwright: One of the gifts.
• 28:25
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 28:26
  Tanja Meyburgh: Definitely.
• 28:27
  Tanja Meyburgh: And there's one more thing I wanted to say about the parenting, um, 'cause I f- I think I'm fumbling around this question a little bit interestingly, um-
• 28:34
  Tracy Cartwright: That's all right… Tanja Meyburgh: and that is that a and they say, "I wanna work out all my stuff so that I don't pass anything on to my children." And I just wanna say that, like, it's such a beautiful ideal and it's such a incredible wish and it comes with so much love.
• 28:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. But actually it's not real.
• 28:50
  Tracy Cartwright: It's not possible.
• 28:51
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, we can do as much work as we want, but our children, we will still pass things on to our children.
• 28:57
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and that's not, doesn't mean that we've failed.
• 29:00
  Tracy Cartwright: It's, it's part of, it's part of them belonging to the system that they belong to and, um, and so there's no amount of work that you can do that you'll magically release your children to a life that is, it's, it's completely easy and, um- Exactly.
• 29:16
  Tracy Cartwright: We all have our life path, right?
• 29:17
  Tracy Cartwright: We all have our, our lessons, our destinies and- things that,
• 29:23
  Tanja Meyburgh: you know,
• 29:23
  Tracy Cartwright: things that are there for us to learn
• 29:25
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah
• 29:26
  Tracy Cartwright: I think you can, I think there is a, there is a certain amount that you would, you know, you're doing your own work that's gonna clear if the children are entangled in it.
• 29:34
  Tracy Cartwright: But y- yeah, to come with the ideal that you're gonna fix everything so there's nothing left for your children.
• 29:40
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah, it's a kind of a magical thinking, I suppose, as well.
• 29:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 29:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: And you know, something that every parent would love to be able to wipe the slate clean, but, but yeah, I mean, the reality is different.
• 29:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Exactly.
• 29:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Exactly.
• 29:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, you mentioned Real Academy just before, and I've, um, been a follower of Real Academy for a very long time.
• 29:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Would you like to share a little bit more about that?
• 30:01
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 30:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: So it, it started just before COVID, actually.
• 30:04
  Tanja Meyburgh: So we were so excited that it was a possibility that it was available in COVID about a year be- a year before Eric Anderson and I decided to come together and, and put a digital resource together because we saw that the first generation elders of this work were starting to age Mm And we didn't want those voices to be lost.
• 30:25
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um- Yeah … and so I started interviewing a lot of my teachers and the people that were part of the really beginning, and one of them was Hunter Beaumont-
• 30:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah… Tanja Meyburgh: um, who was a really, you of this work and m- making it accessible by writing, um, Life's Hidden Symmetry, which is just a really incredible book.
• 30:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and, and so that's what we did.
• 30:50
  Tracy Cartwright: We sort of looked at it as a way to in- uh, make it possible for people to supplement their, their knowledge, to get further learning, to hear from these elders, to, yeah, have a sense of the quality of, of these things.
• 31:09
  Tracy Cartwright: And that was before, uh, online work was happening so much.
• 31:13
  Tracy Cartwright: So we kind of started and I thought,"Wow, this is gonna be amazing," but then a lot of people have had access to those elders online.
• 31:20
  Tracy Cartwright: But, um, I do think that it's, it, it's a kind of a resource that lives on and at the moment, um, I'm not creating a lot more content.
• 31:28
  Tracy Cartwright: But what's happening is that, for example, Barbara Morgan of The Knowing Field has asked us to, to keep the, the archive of The Knowing Field, which is an incredible amount of work that was m- done- Amazing.
• 31:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah … over many, many years, and it's now accessible, and it's easy to get, and it can be, it can be accessed digitally and, um… And that's again another way of p- of preserving some of those voices and making sure that those things don't, you know, as people, um, retire or pass over, you know, that we don't lose these incredible resources.
• 32:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. So, yeah.
• 32:05
  Tracy Cartwright: So I'm, I'm hoping that with time we can get as, as, as much of the- The content that, that is, um, supportive of this work and the roots of this work, um, loaded up there so people can access it.
• 32:19
  Tracy Cartwright: So that's at, it's at, uh, realacademy.net.
• 32:21
  Tracy Cartwright: It's a very, very- And it's not a, I mean, it's a business … very So.
• 32:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 32:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 32:25
  Tracy Cartwright: More like a library.
• 32:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 32:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Call it that, yeah.
• 32:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, p- you do have to pay for most, some of the content.
• 32:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Some, there's quite a bit that's free, but obviously we have to cover some expenses with the, um, with all that video content that sits behind the website.
• 32:41
  Tracy Cartwright: It, it, it, you know, it's quite a big- Oh, and the marketing.
• 32:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, all of it.
• 32:44
  Tracy Cartwright: The website.
• 32:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 32:44
  Tracy Cartwright: All of those things.
• 32:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Um- Mm … there's a lot that goes in that people don't see, isn't there?
• 32:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. There's a lot.
• 32:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 32:51
  Tracy Cartwright: A lot of time and a lot of love and, and energy that's in there.
• 32:55
  Tracy Cartwright: And you also have those, you have those beautiful little doil- uh, dollies.
• 32:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Dollies you call them?
• 33:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 33:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Don't you?
• 33:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Behind you.
• 33:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: I call, well, we call them the African Constellation Dollies.
• 33:05
  Tanja Meyburgh: So, um, this is a project I started s- ugh, 15 years ago or something with a, with a colleague.
• 33:11
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and they're basic little constellation dollies and, you know, we checked in with all the, the elders.
• 33:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: Guni Bagza and Urzila Franco were two people who we, who we modeled.
• 33:23
  Tanja Meyburgh: You know, we g- we asked them to test them and to tell us what they thought of them and, um- Mm. And they are made by, um, a group of women here in Cape Town.
• 33:33
  Tanja Meyburgh: And- As we get more and more orders, we train more and more women, and it's, uh, it's kind of an empowerment pro- project.
• 33:41
  Tanja Meyburgh: The i- idea is that especially women with very small children, they're really happy- Yeah to be, to make some income in this way.
• 33:49
  Tanja Meyburgh: And incredible crafts and skills.
• 33:51
  Tanja Meyburgh: You can see how beautifully they're made.
• 33:53
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, you know, that when they can't work because their babies are small, and so- Mm … this is a- It's a great idea.
• 34:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 34:01
  Tracy Cartwright: So, so what do they get in the pack?
• 34:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, is it, are there different packs or are there-
• 34:06
  Tanja Meyburgh: At the moment we have, we have, we sell them in p- in, in a, in a set of 12.
• 34:11
  Tanja Meyburgh: There's four grandparents, four adults, and four children, so the children are a little bit smaller, and it comes in a beautiful shweshwe bag, which is a, um, African material.
• 34:22
  Tanja Meyburgh: And you can buy them, you can, you know, different people want different kind of skin colors because of where they work.
• 34:30
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 34:31
  Tanja Meyburgh: We're mostly selling mixed sets at the moment, which would be like this with two, two different skin colors.
• 34:38
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 34:38
  Tanja Meyburgh: But you can also buy if you're working a lot with African American community or wherever you're working.
• 34:44
  Tanja Meyburgh: So yeah, people… And, and obviously these are, this is something you don't come across very often.
• 34:49
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, you do- No … more now, but when we started these dollies, you know, to find a dolly with a Black skin was really difficult.
• 34:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 34:56
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and so we've, yeah, we've got a lot of clients who work with, with multiracial communities who love these dollies, and they're really nicely made.
• 35:06
  Tanja Meyburgh: Once you buy a set, it lasts forever, basically, so.
• 35:08
  Tanja Meyburgh: They're beautiful.
• 35:09
  Tanja Meyburgh: Thanks for punting them.
• 35:10
  Tanja Meyburgh: Well, I've just punted them.
• 35:13
  Tracy Cartwright: I think that's so cute.
• 35:14
  Tracy Cartwright: I
• 35:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: remember you- I do love them.
• 35:15
  Tracy Cartwright: I do love them … I remember you showing me them in Australia.
• 35:19
  Tracy Cartwright: I think they were coming through.
• 35:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Maybe you were just starting or you'd, you'd, I think you brought a set over with you, uh, when we met at the intensive a number of years ago.
• 35:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Quite a few years ago now, wasn't it?
• 35:32
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah, and I mean, the, the, the best thing is if you get a group of people together and you get them sent over together because then the postage is not so much.
• 35:40
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um-
• 35:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Y- yeah, 'cause international postage is a killer really.
• 35:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 35:44
  Tracy Cartwright: And so, mind you, all postage is at the moment.
• 35:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Uh, yeah.
• 35:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 35:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Let's see.
• 35:51
  Tracy Cartwright: What else does the field want me to ask?
• 35:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Have you got anything else that you would like to, to share about the work or that's just sitting there for you?
• 36:00
  Tanja Meyburgh: Oh, nothing comes to mind at the moment.
• 36:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: I'm sorry.
• 36:03
  Tanja Meyburgh: My brain is a little bit-
• 36:03
  Tracy Cartwright: That's okay.
• 36:04
  Tracy Cartwright: I know that you're a trainer.
• 36:05
  Tracy Cartwright: You're a teacher and a trainer of the work.
• 36:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, whereabouts in the world is that for the, anyone that's in South Africa?
• 36:13
  Tracy Cartwright: What… Because it's a big place.
• 36:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah, so I, I've actually, um, stopped training basic training facilitators last year.
• 36:22
  Tanja Meyburgh: I did my 24th group of a two year- Wow … training and I decided I'm gonna have a break.
• 36:27
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and so there's a number of my students now who've started trainings.
• 36:31
  Tanja Meyburgh: I think there's a, there's about eight or nine of them now in South Africa that are training.
• 36:36
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, but what I do is I, I come in and do advanced training.
• 36:40
  Tanja Meyburgh: I do supervision of facilitators and trainers online and in person.
• 36:45
  Tanja Meyburgh: And what I've been enjoying with the book, you know, just giving the book a chance by s- uh, taking it around the world is, um, you know, I train in other people's trainings, so I'm involved in quite a few different institutes around the world.
• 36:59
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, working either with their trainers or with their facilitators.
• 37:03
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, I'm doing master classes.
• 37:05
  Tanja Meyburgh: So that's what I'm enjoying at the moment, is that, that next layer.
• 37:09
  Tanja Meyburgh: Like how do we- Yeah … how do we include more embodiment in our practice, or how do we work safely with ancestors in our practice or, you know, whatever question is coming out of a certain community for me to go and, and- Mm meet that.
• 37:24
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um- Yeah
• 37:26
  Tracy Cartwright: You, you mentioned the land earlier.
• 37:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 37:29
  Tracy Cartwright: How does that … 'Cause I work with the land as well, but, uh, I'm just wondering how does that work in for you in the constellations?
• 37:35
  Tracy Cartwright: How do you bring that in?
• 37:37
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 37:37
  Tanja Meyburgh: Thanks for the question.
• 37:38
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, I … First of all, I work a little differently to a lot of people.
• 37:43
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, originally land constellations kind of sat within nature constellation.
• 37:48
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, but for me, a lot of reflection of being a South African, being a white South African living in an area that used to be, uh, inhabited by indigenous people and now, you know, I own this land, and reflecting on that, um, was where my work started emerging with land.
• 38:11
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, um, asking myself, you know, who, who lived here before me?
• 38:16
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 38:16
  Tanja Meyburgh: What was the price that they had to pay for me to be here?
• 38:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, and, and also, I mean, land is a hot topic in South Africa.
• 38:24
  Tanja Meyburgh: It's a, you know, it's a question on how do, how do reparations happen when, when it, when the loss of the land or the, the stealing of the land happened so long ago.
• 38:36
  Tanja Meyburgh: So I started to include it more and more and, and for one in indigenous ceremonies.
• 38:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, I know that from, from Australia, which I hadn't experienced anywhere else in the world, is that, um, that the people of, of the first people of the land where you're working are acknowledged and, and, um, spoken about in the beginning of a ceremony.
• 38:57
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and that is something that I've started to include in my work and, and that is kind of becoming standard practice in working in South Africa, is really who was here first, who, who, who were the indigenous people of the land, and, and, and having a small ceremony at the beginning of every, um, uh, workshop or gathering of people.
• 39:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, um, and then, you know, I looked at ways that that can be done with constellations.
• 39:25
  Tanja Meyburgh: You know, how can we work, work with collective constellations?
• 39:29
  Tanja Meyburgh: So I started mostly with collective constellations around land and the voices of the land and the voices of the people because in indigenous, um, in the indigenous lineage that I'm trained in, one of the group of ancestors that we work with is the ancestors of the soil.
• 39:46
  Tanja Meyburgh: We, uh, don't only work with family ancestors.
• 39:48
  Tanja Meyburgh: We also work- Mm … with who was here first and who was here before them.
• 39:52
  Tanja Meyburgh: So we have ancestors in the land as well, and how do we acknowledge them and give place to them?
• 39:58
  Tanja Meyburgh: So I started working with constellation work of, in, as a way of, of acknowledging those ancestors of the soil and also helping people in a group to find a unique position around this because many people haven't even thought about it.
• 40:14
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 40:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: So a lot of it was around consciousness raising and just acknowledging and awareness and, and with time, um, you know, with, with a colleague, Sue Davidhoff and I, we've developed, um, through conversation many layers and, and more small exercises and ways of looking at different land, lands of our ancestors, you know, lands where we are connected to Through perpetration, different kinds of relationships to land.
• 40:43
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 40:44
  Tanja Meyburgh: And it's actually been so important, especially now with all the im- immigration, um, difficulties and people becoming aware how important it is really for so many people around the world.
• 40:57
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and, and, and that, and that just the awareness, you know, especially… Like, for example, I work a lot in the Netherlands.
• 41:05
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm. And I'm interested in working with the Netherlands because they were the or- they were the people who came to South Africa and, and, and, and colonized here.
• 41:15
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so- The
• 41:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Dutch were
• 41:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: the first,
• 41:18
  Tracy Cartwright: were they?
• 41:19
  Tanja Meyburgh: The Dutch were the first.
• 41:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, they didn't start as a c- colony, but they started, you know, just with a s- with a refreshment station, but then came the English.
• 41:27
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, but the Dutch were the first that, that settled in, in, in, um… And so, yeah, just if you look at, at, at, at somebody who's lived in a place their whole life, their ancestors have lived in the same place, they've benefited from all the things of that place, it's a very different reality to somebody who's had to move from country to country to country to feel safe, and that's a huge part of their identity.
• 41:55
  Tanja Meyburgh: And when one misses that as a constellation facilitator, how important that is.
• 41:59
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm. Um, so when I work with, uh, immigrants, it, it, bringing in the land is essential.
• 42:05
  Tanja Meyburgh: You know?
• 42:06
  Tanja Meyburgh: It, it, it, it just opens the constellation up completely because it's such an essential piece of identity in, in, in- Bringing
• 42:14
  Tracy Cartwright: their, their land, their homeland, or the land that you're on now?
• 42:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Sorry, I-
• 42:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: Both.
• 42:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: Both, yeah.
• 42:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Both.
• 42:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 42:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: No.
• 42:21
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, it depends on the question, but I usually bring in both because it's a different relationship.
• 42:26
  Tanja Meyburgh: So, you know, there's the o- there's the land of your birth, um, which you have a very special connection to.
• 42:32
  Tanja Meyburgh: Then there's the lands where your a- where your parents come from and your ancestors come from.
• 42:37
  Tanja Meyburgh: They're the lands where you've moved to or you're living t- living at.
• 42:40
  Tanja Meyburgh: And then as I said, like with the Dutch, you know, South Africa, Dutch people love South Africa.
• 42:45
  Tanja Meyburgh: They love coming to South Africa.
• 42:46
  Tanja Meyburgh: They're totally connected, but they often don't realize that the reason why is because there's a, there's a, there's a, a fate of the Dutch with South Africa.
• 42:55
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm. And, and there's something there that needs to be acknowledged and seen and, um, and that actually triggers people in South Africa when Dutch people come and they just go, "Oh, just love it here.
• 43:07
  Tanja Meyburgh: It's so beautiful.
• 43:07
  Tanja Meyburgh: Love the animals.
• 43:08
  Tanja Meyburgh: Love Africa." So creating awareness around these things that we do that, um, that's, yeah, are unconscious or-
• 43:16
  Tracy Cartwright: They are, are unconscious, aren't they?
• 43:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah And I think that they're so important to be aware of.
• 43:23
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 43:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 43:24
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 43:24
  Tracy Cartwright: I think it's brilliant.
• 43:25
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I mean, it's also a primal bond that we have with the land, you know?
• 43:28
  Tanja Meyburgh: Be- Yeah … th- so there's the sociopolitical and then there's the primal and the deeper kind of bonds.
• 43:33
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, and traditionally in nature constellations we've worked with the deeper primal bonds and less with the social polit- sociopolitical.
• 43:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: But for me, the sociopolitical layer is such a big important layer when you're working with a, with a multicultural group or a, a group especially in a land of people who have been colonized because that is such- Yeah … a huge part of their story and their identity.
• 43:57
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 43:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome to Aotearoa.
• 44:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, yes.
• 44:02
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't think there's too many places that wouldn't have been, have some of that- In the world, right?
• 44:09
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 44:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 44:10
  Tanja Meyburgh: Absolutely.
• 44:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 44:11
  Tracy Cartwright: It's fascinating.
• 44:12
  Tanja Meyburgh: And it, I think it's also part of, like, collective work.
• 44:16
  Tanja Meyburgh: You know, the, the, the family work is so important, and the work with our parents is so important.
• 44:21
  Tanja Meyburgh: But, you know, there is something in the, in the field and the world today that's asking us to not only look at the individual level, but to really start to, to, to, to awaken ourselves also to collective movements and how what's happening individually and personally can also be like a fractal of something that's happening collectively.
• 44:41
  Tanja Meyburgh: That's right.
• 44:42
  Tanja Meyburgh: And so, you know, I try and, and work both at the closer, the internal inner layers of the client, but also within something bigger, that it isn't always, like, a shock to see the news or, um, you know, that, that when you're working with the shadow aspect of yourself and you're also looking at the shadow aspect of a more cultural or societal level, that, th- that there's a, there's a kind of integration that allows you to, to be with what's happening and also not dissolve and, and fall to pieces and, and, and have to look away.
• 45:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: But, you know, that you can actually show up also for, for larger systems and larger conversation because you- Yeah … you've developed a kind of a robustness for that.
• 45:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 45:29
  Tracy Cartwright: I think constellations definitely helps you to- Mm … to work that muscle.
• 45:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and just thinking about, um, you know, we are all one in the context of I am you and you are me.
• 45:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 45:43
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and often in our individualism, in our, in the way that w- the society teaches us that, you know, you're an individual and, and it's, and it's you're just this, but actually there's so much more.
• 45:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. So much more.
• 45:58
  Tracy Cartwright: That's what I love about working in this field work and what you've just been sharing.
• 46:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. So, so thank you.
• 46:07
  Tracy Cartwright: That's amazing.
• 46:07
  Tracy Cartwright: So-
• 46:08
  Tanja Meyburgh: I love what you're saying because it's, like, expansive.
• 46:10
  Tanja Meyburgh: It, it creates an expansiveness.
• 46:12
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, yeah.
• 46:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 46:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 46:14
  Tracy Cartwright: I, you know, sometimes I would, I wake up and I'm, like, aware that I'm really sad, and I'm not aware of any dreams that I've had or anything like that.
• 46:21
  Tracy Cartwright: And then I don't very-- I try not to watch the news too much because it's, you know.
• 46:27
  Tracy Cartwright: But then I find out that there's been something major that, that's happened in the world, and it's like, oh, okay.
• 46:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. So it's there in, in the collective already and, and I'm feeling it without knowing it, consciously knowing it.
• 46:38
  Tracy Cartwright: So, um, yeah, because it's so- Out there, right?
• 46:43
  Tracy Cartwright: We are part of… We're a micro.
• 46:45
  Tracy Cartwright: We're only just a little tiny drop in the ocean of life.
• 46:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. Love it.
• 46:51
  Tracy Cartwright: All right.
• 46:52
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm, absolutely.
• 46:53
  Tanja Meyburgh: And that, that illusion that, you know, we're the masters of our universe and we ha- we're fully in control of everything is, is, is kind of as an individual, I, um, is… it is, it's an illusion.
• 47:06
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, of course we wanna develop a certain level of, of, of an integrated self.
• 47:11
  Tanja Meyburgh: That is part of the work that we're doing.
• 47:14
  Tanja Meyburgh: But it doesn't exist in, in isolation from everything else.
• 47:18
  Tanja Meyburgh: And I love the way you… the example you've given.
• 47:21
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 47:21
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 47:22
  Tracy Cartwright: No, it's a good, good balance, right?
• 47:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Good… Find that balance in there, I think, is probably one of the- Mm-hmm … one of the, um, keys if you're looking for the secret of life.
• 47:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Is one of the keys for one of the doors.
• 47:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Y-
• 47:34
  Tanja Meyburgh: yes.
• 47:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, brilliant.
• 47:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 47:35
  Tracy Cartwright: So if someone wants to get in touch with you, um, how would they find you?
• 47:40
  Tanja Meyburgh: So I've got, uh, I've got my website, which is tanyameiberg.com, and the, the spelling I think you'll get from, from the, the podcast.
• 47:49
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, and then social media.
• 47:51
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, I, I have accounts on Instagram, on Facebook, and nothing… it's not, it's not personal.
• 47:56
  Tanja Meyburgh: You're welcome to join up and see what's, what's happening.
• 47:59
  Tanja Meyburgh: I mean, I, I post a, a mixture between sort of ponderings and what's happening when I'm traveling and, you know, things that are upcoming.
• 48:08
  Tanja Meyburgh: Um, it's not, it's not like an, uh, one of those somebody else manages my account.
• 48:13
  Tanja Meyburgh: It's very much my voice and, and so- Yeah… if you, if you, if, you know, if you wanna engage, that is, that is one way to do it.
• 48:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: And, um, yeah, I'm just really… uh, I love the work, and obviously I've been kind of focused on it for so long, um, 25 years now.
• 48:30
  Tanja Meyburgh: Wow.
• 48:31
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm
• 48:31
  Tanja Meyburgh: always happy to talk more about it and share more.
• 48:34
  Tanja Meyburgh: So thank you for the invitation- Yeah… that I had the opportunity to do that.
• 48:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:38
  Tracy Cartwright: You're welcome.
• 48:39
  Tracy Cartwright: You're welcome.
• 48:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, I, we had, um, we had Beulah Bubbles Livingston at, um, our immersion this year.
• 48:46
  Tracy Cartwright: She came for a day.
• 48:46
  Tracy Cartwright: She's… she say she's 94?
• 48:48
  Tracy Cartwright: No, 96.
• 48:50
  Tracy Cartwright: She's getting up there.
• 48:52
  Tracy Cartwright: She's been, um- She is … she talks very highly of you and very fondly of you as well.
• 48:57
  Tracy Cartwright: So.
• 48:58
  Tanja Meyburgh: Do you know that it was her living room where I experienced my first constellation?
• 49:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: Oh.
• 49:02
  Tanja Meyburgh: So that is really a full circle moment.
• 49:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Full circle, exactly.
• 49:07
  Tracy Cartwright: That's beautiful.
• 49:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 49:09
  Tracy Cartwright: So she lives… yeah, she's been here- I think for about 10 years now maybe.
• 49:14
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm.
• 49:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 49:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful woman.
• 49:17
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah, and I love the, um … And Bubbles is the perfect description for Bubbles.
• 49:21
  Tanja Meyburgh: Beulah Levin- Levinson.
• 49:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 49:23
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah.
• 49:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, yeah.
• 49:24
  Tanja Meyburgh: Yeah, also feel very fondly f- about her and, and, and yeah, and, and that opportunity to experience the work for the first time.
• 49:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 49:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, thank you so much for sharing your time with us, and if anyone's interested in getting in touch with Tania, please reach out.
• 49:41
  Tracy Cartwright: L- um, have a look at Real Academy and see all the amazing offerings that Tania's got.
• 49:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Her book re- The Modern Path to Ancient Ways of Reclaiming Your Ancestors.
• 49:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Reclaiming Ancestors, yeah.
• 49:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you so much.
• 49:55
  Tracy Cartwright: It's been amazing.
• 49:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Really, really enjoyed today.
• 49:58
  Tanja Meyburgh: Mm. Thanks for the c- for the conversation and also for sharing the, the book and the academy and all of that.
• 50:04
  Tanja Meyburgh: It's, it's wonderful to know that people are reading and learning and s- and that the knowledge is going further, so I appreciate it.
• 50:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, well, it's wisdom keepers like yourself that are, you know, helping to share it, so we're, we're really, really grateful.
• 50:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 50:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 50:20
  Tanja Meyburgh: Thank you.
• 50:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 50:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 50:28
  Tracy Cartwright: You'll find me at tracey.cartwright.
• 50:31
  Tracy Cartwright: That's Tracey with no E .cartwright.
• 50:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And th- or head over to my website, traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 50:44
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.