Latest / Wake Up with Miya / Episode 216. NYPD Cop’s Missing Child Investigation Leads to Son of Sam

Transcript

Episode 216. NYPD Cop’s Missing Child Investigation Leads to Son of Sam · Wake Up with Miya

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So spiritually, I think, honestly, in today's world especially, I
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: actually think we're involved with a spiritual war. You know,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Tiny spoke about things that, you know, you see now
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: on Instagram and the signs that these celebrities make and
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: the parties that they go to, how they don't hide their,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: you know, the Olympics. They made fun of the Last Supper.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: You know, we're actually involved in a spiritual war. People
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: don't see it. But he had talked about it in 1997,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: you know, and there was no internet then. So he
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: wasn't talking about something he saw on Instagram. This is
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: stuff that he lived and he knew because he became
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a high priest in the cult. Tiny actually became a
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: big shot in that cult. And when he started giving
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: us information, he would talk about the Bohemian Grove, the
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Bilderberg Group. And I had never heard that stuff.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: What started as a career fighting New York City's heroin
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: epidemic would eventually lead retired NYPD detective Sergeant Mike Codella
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: into an investigation involving one of the most famous missing
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: child cases in America, the son of Sam, and allegations
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: he never expected to encounter. Mike spent more than 20
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: years in law enforcement, working undercover, investigating missing children, and
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: on September 11th, going into the World Trade Center to
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: help evacuate people before he himself survived the collapse. But
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: one of the most fascinating parts of our conversation begins
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: with an inmate named Tiny, who contacted Mike in 1997
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: with information about the disappearance of Etan Pates. What followed
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: led Mike into allegations involving David Berkowitz, the son of Sam,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: satanic rituals, and a world he knew absolutely nothing about
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: at the time. And this is what really caught my attention.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: This was 1997, before Google, before social media. So some
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: of what Tiny was telling Mike back then sounds very
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: familiar to the subjects we discuss right here on this channel.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: all the time. So guys, please be sure to order
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Mike's new book, The Evil That Walked in New York,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: because he goes in so much deeper with his conversations
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: with Tiny and some of the things that he talked about,
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: the signs, the symbols, the celebrities, the organizations. We barely
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: touched on it here in this interview, but But please
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: get that book because I think you guys will find
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: it fascinating to see what he was telling Mike in
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: 1997 and how it all connects to today. Some of
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: what we discuss may be disturbing, so viewer and listener
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: discretion is advised. Now, here's my conversation with retired NYPD
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: detective Sergeant Mike Codella. Aloha, Mike, and welcome to the show.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Before we get into anything, I just want to thank
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: you for your service, not only as a NYPD officer,
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: but for what you did on September 11th. While so
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: many people were trying to get out, you're one of
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: those running in, and I have tremendous amount of respect
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: for that. So thank you very much for that. You
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: had an incredible career beyond anything. 9-11 as well. And
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: there's so many things that I want to talk to
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: you about today. So I'm really looking forward to hearing
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: your story directly from you. But before we get into
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: all of that, I'd love for you to introduce yourself
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: to everyone and tell us a little bit about your background.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, so my name is Mike Cadella. I was born
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: and raised in Brooklyn, New York. I became a police
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: officer in New York City in 1983. That's when I
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: was sworn in. From being a regular uniformed cop, I
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: went into some specialized units, some plainclothes, anti-crime units, some
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: narcotics units. I worked with the DEA, Drug Enforcement Administration.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: I was assigned at some point later in my career
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: to the Missing Persons Squad, Special Investigations. And I did
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: 20 years, just a little over 20 years, and I
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: retired in 2003.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Wow. You've been retired for a little bit then. You
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: look so young.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: And you grew up in Brooklyn. And from what I understand,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: you were around organized crime at a pretty young age.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: And you could have easily ended up on a very
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: different path. But can you take us back to that
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: time and tell us how you eventually became a police officer?
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: I mean... Basically, I didn't have the intention of being
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: a cop growing up. Like, it wasn't something I aspired
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: to do. Like, some little kids want to be a
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: fireman their whole career, their whole life, or want to
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: be a cop their whole life. I didn't have that
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: inclination as a young guy. But, you know, I just
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: kind of took the New York City police test. Just
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: enough taken, just something to fall back on. And really,
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: in my head, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: But I hung out with pretty wild guys and I
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: saw kind of like the, I want to say I
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: saw the bad part of what some people think is
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: a glamorous life of crime or a life of gangsters.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: There was some glamour to it, but there's a lot
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: of backstabbing and a lot of manipulation that happens behind
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: the scenes. And I felt that that, you know, I
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: was only a kid at the time in my 16th, 17th, 18th.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: And I said, if this is going on now at
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: such a young age, can you imagine, you know, if
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I would grow up in this life and have to
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: deal with this on a daily basis? And it turned
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: me off, basically.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, eventually, I think you said you found
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: yourself working in Alphabet City during the height of the
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: heroin epidemic. I heard you describe that neighborhood and what
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: that neighborhood was back then. It almost sounds hard to
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: imagine today. But can you take us back to that
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: time and tell us what it was like back then,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: what you were seeing?
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Sure. When I was actually in the police academy, so
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: when I was young, like 16, 17, my friends and
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I would go into Manhattan, New York City, leave Brooklyn
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: and go into Manhattan. And we'd go usually down to
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: like Times Square, 42nd Street, in that area, which was
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: a wild, wild area back in the 80s, 70s and 80s.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: It was tough. It was, it was, very seedy. So
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: I thought, and we would hang out there, you know,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: and we really, to be honest, we had no right
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: being there because it was, like I said, a real seedy,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: gritty area. So I thought I had seen just about everything,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: you know, already at that young age. And then on
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: my way to being, I was being driven to the
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: police academy by one of the, a friend of mine
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: who was also in the police academy with me at
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: the time. And his father was driving us and he
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: took like a little bit of a shortcut to beat
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: the traffic. And we were driving through alphabet city, which
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: I had never been, been to before. Um, and I,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: I saw, and this was early in the morning because
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: we had to be at the police Academy by like
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: seven 30. So this was like six 30, seven in
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: the morning. And there was lines of people, you know,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: throughout the projects and on the street, just lines of
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: individuals standing, you know, in an orderly fashion, you know,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: and I asked, my friend's father, who was a cop,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: he was in the SWAT team out in New York,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: the emergency service, the SWAT team. And I asked him,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: what are these people doing out here? It literally looked
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: like they were on a cheese line back in the
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: day when the government would give cheese out. And he said, oh,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: they're waiting to cop their heroin. And I was dumbfounded.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it was so out in the open.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: And they were just, like I said, standing in line.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Then there was a guy walking up and down the
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: line collecting the money. And It wasn't just one spot.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: It was, like, it was several spots in this lower
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Alphabet City area, lower Manhattan. And that stuck with me how,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: you know, I thought it was horrible. Like, you would
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: see little kids going to school walking next to these
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: people looking to buy their dope, their heroin. And it
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: stuck with me. Then eventually when I had the opportunity,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I put my transfer in and went down there because
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I wanted to... Honestly, I wanted to see if I
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: could make a difference down there.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Wow. I think you did make a big difference down there.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: But I can't believe the city knew about this and
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: allowed it to happen. They were okay with it.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what it was? They felt that it
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: was contained. Like, so all the junkies, for lack of
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: a better term, would go to Alphabet City to score
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: their dope and get high and then either spend their
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: days there or go about their business. So it was
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: like a contained... The poison was contained, so to speak.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could get dope in other parts of
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: the city, of course, but nothing like this. And this
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: was always the highest grade heroin. So the junkies knew
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: where to go. You know, the heavy users knew where
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: to go. And that's why it persisted.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Wow. So it's like, I think... Was it Switzerland or
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: not Switzerland? Was it Netherlands? I can't remember. One of
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: those countries, they also have something like that where the
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: government allows it to happen. Actually, I think the government
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: gives out these heroines or whatever they're addicted to in
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: a very clean form. And they will go and get
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: just a little bit, just enough to... go through the
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: day to to function and they will come back again
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: the next day kind of sounds like something like that
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: i didn't know they had such a i don't know
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: if that was a government program or just they were
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: just kind of turning their head away and allowing this
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: to happen sorry that's the okay that's just a chat
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: okay sorry that's.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: But they were just it was more like They were
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: allowing the drug dealers. It wasn't a form of government
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: giving them.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: No, the government wasn't giving them. It was just, like
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: I said, turning a blind eye. And what had become
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: a problem was the NYPD at the time felt that
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: it was a very corruption problem. So they told cops,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: for the most part, to lay off of it. The
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: money was so out there, so to speak, and the
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: drugs were so... And they felt that it was very...
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: corruption prone. So for the most part, they didn't want
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: cops taking action. And that's helped this epidemic.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: That is crazy because that just led to all kinds
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: of stuff happening thereafter throughout the city. Do you remember
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: who the governor or the mayor was at that time?
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Well, the mayor was probably Mayor Koch.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: And the governor was probably Mario Cuomo.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Oh. Really?
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: That is really crazy. You also became part of the
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Operation 8, which was going after the drug trade in
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: some of the worst housing projects in the city. Can
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: you tell us what Operation 8 was and what you
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: and your partner was doing?
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so Operation 8 was a federally funded unit. And
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: there was four cops at the time and one sergeant.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: And We were to target, in plainclothes, in soft clothes,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: we were targeting the most crime-ridden projects in Alphabet City.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: And crime-ridden means, of course, drugs, anything that, any crime. But,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: of course, most of the drugs, most of the crimes
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: stemmed from the drugs. But we were, you know, doing that,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: making all kinds of arrests. But we concentrated on the heroin,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and we were actually allowed to lock up. users and dealers.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: We had no handcuffs on us, basically. I was immediately
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: three of the cops and my sergeant. We actually put
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: a dent in the operations down there.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Do you ever bump into those criminals now or right
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: after you even retired?
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Not so much recently, but Oh, good. Let's say the
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: last 10 years I've run into a few of them, yeah.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: And were they still upset or mad or recognized you?
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they recognized. You know, I worked in Alphabet City
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: with my partner almost close to 10 years. So we
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: knew everyone. I mean, I watched little boys grow up and,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: you know, girls too, obviously. But, like, I would grab
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: a football and throw a football around with a little
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: boy and then watch him grow up. And very often...
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: You know, they were friendly towards me as a kid
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: because they knew I was a cop, you know. And
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: then you'd see them turn and fall into the life,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: you know. Because, you know, the drugs, the money is attractive.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Even like for myself as a kid with a mob,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: it's very similar. For these guys, they didn't have, you know,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Italian mobsters, but they had drug dealers that drove beautiful
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: cars and had beautiful girls with them. So it was
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: attractive to them. So... very often I, you know, watch
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: a person grow, a kid grow up and turn into,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: you know, into that life. But when I've run into them,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: you know, since, they've always, you know, they've always, I've
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: always treated them well when I locked them up for
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: the most part. You know, once, it was my job.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: They understood my job. It was like, almost like a
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: game of cat and mouse where they knew I was
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: after them. They were trying to get away. And for
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: the most part, we may not catch it today or tomorrow, but,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'd eventually catch you. And they understood that.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: So even years later, when they're out, like I've put
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: guys away that did a lot of time and I'd
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: run into them many years later. And it was, you know,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: there was respect. There was no bad feelings, to be
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: quite honest.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Wow. That's great. Now, today's drugs is a little different,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: I think. I'm sure we still have the heroin, but
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: now that fentanyl stuff is really crazy. These people are
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: like zombies today. Have you seen a big change?
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Or is it the same? I only, you know, the heroin,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: they get that same nodding effect when they nod out
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: and they bend and they, you know, they don't fall over.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: They bend really at the brain.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't know that.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah. And the difference is I believe
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: that the fentanyl is a lot stronger than the heroin.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: But it's basically the same kind of opiate, effect.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: It's just really crazy. I walked down San Francisco not
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: too long ago and I just saw all these people,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: like you said, kind of bending over, balancing. I don't
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: know how they do that. And they stand there for forever,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: just kind of hunched over like that. And I was
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: with my mom and she's 80 and she's walking really slow.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: I'm like, can you hurry up? Let's go. get out
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: but then I realized oh my god these guys are
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: so like so drowsed and whatever that if they tried
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: they weren't even interested in us but if they did
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I could just kick them over because they're so you
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: know so whatever I don't know it's so crazy it's
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: really sad.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: They lose like their body function but they don't lose
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: their balance that's why they don't fall.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: That is crazy yeah I've never seen anything like it.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: It's so bizarre. Now, I heard you talk about some
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: of the informants you worked with during that time and
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: some of the unusual ways you had to get information.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Can you tell us, I guess, how that worked and
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: what it took to get inside these drug organizations?
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so a lot of times, you know,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: to use an informant, at least in the New York
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: City police, but I'm sure most of the other police departments,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: you need to register and inform it. That means you
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: have to do paperwork, you have to fingerprint them, take
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: their picture. They can't be on parole or probation. It's
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: not so much tedious. I mean, it is tedious, but
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: it's counterproductive because a lot of these guys may want
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: to give you information. They don't want to be fingerprinted.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: They don't want to have their picture floating around, you know,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: their lives are basically in danger. So really what me
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: and my partner would do is, well, we do a
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: few things. One thing is I would just take money
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: out of my own pocket and give it to them
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: if they gave me good information. Because you've got to remember,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: the people that are giving you the information are bad
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: guys themselves for the most part. I mean, even though
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: they're helping you, they either have a drug habit or
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: they're helping you put somebody away because it's benefiting them
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: in some way. You know, so maybe they're taking the
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: competition off the street or, which, you know, if you
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: have a little bit common sense, it's not very hard
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: to figure out why they're doing it. So a lot
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: of times, like I said, we either pay them or
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: if they gave us good information, we would let them
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: think that we're not going to lock you up today.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: You could go do your business. Just don't do it
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: in front of us. You have free reign today. As
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: long as you gave us what we wanted. So, you know,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: you have to deal with the devil basically to get
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: to get the end results. Does the end justify to me?
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Cause that's, that's, you know, that's the big question. And
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: I always felt that, yeah, I, you know, I'd rather
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: let a guy sell a little bit and take a
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: bigger guy off the street and let, let that, that's,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: you know, stem the flow.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. At some point, I think things became really serious
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: and you found yourself out there with a $ 50, 000 contract
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: put out on you and your partner.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, we were doing, like I said, we
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: did a number on them, especially me and my partner.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: My partner thought a lot like I did. And, you know,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: we would go above and beyond. We'd go to projects
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: on our own time, actually, if we'd get a beep
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: or somebody had information. And the dealers were losing money,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: you know. Like, again, somebody would set up another guy
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: and we'd take them off and lock them up. And
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: they'd lose $ 10, 000, $ 20, 000, $ 30, 000 at a clip. And they
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: were obviously not used to that, to say the least.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: So a couple of the top guys just sat down.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: They got permission from one of the main guys on
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Avenue D, which is Alphabet City. And they put a $ 50, 000
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: contract on myself and my partner. And the way we
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: found out about it was there was a bank robbery
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: pattern up in Manhattan, the north part of Manhattan. And
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: the FBI and NYPD was talking to an informant regarding
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: the bank robbery. And this guy... after giving them what
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: they wanted or as much information regarding the bank robbery,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: he brought it to their attention. He said, oh, by
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the way, there's these two cops on the Lower East Side.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: He gave our nicknames. He said there's a $ 50, 000 contract
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: on them. And the FBI and the NYPD made your case,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: looked into it, and it turned out to be valid.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: That must have been really scary.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: You know, he, you know, it was, they transferred us
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: for a short time. They moved us up to, to
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: protect us. They transferred my partner and I up to Harlem,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: East Harlem, like Spanish Harlem. And I don't even think
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: we were there. Definitely not a week, maybe two or
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: three days. And we saw one of the guys who
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: put the hit on us up there because he had
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: spots up in Harlem too. So he had spots on
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: all the East side. He had spots up in Harlem.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: So really there was no running from these guys. And, um,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: What eventually happened is nobody wanted to take the contract
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: on us because nobody wanted to hit two cops. And
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: then the NYPD major case put the hammer on these
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: guys and told them, look, we know what's going on.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: We know about the hit. And then eventually it was
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: called off.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: That is crazy. Didn't you also have an Uzi put
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: up into your head? I....
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was doing an undercover buy. I was working
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: undercover at this point with the DEA. And I was
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: buying heroin up in Washington Heights from a Dominican heroin guy.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: And I had never met him before. But another guy
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: from Brooklyn had introduced me. A guy I had bought
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: drugs from in the past was going to introduce me
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to his connection up in Washington Heights. And when we
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: get up there, The Dominican guy got in the car.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: He threw the guy from Brooklyn out of my car.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: And we drove around. And there was, Washington Heights is
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: a very congested, it's a kind of a crazy area.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: It's like there's so many people. It looks like there's
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: a constant parade going on. There's hundreds of people on
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: every street. I don't know if it's like that now.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: I haven't been there in years. But it was crazy.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Double park, triple park cars. You could barely drive down streets.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: And I got this Dominican guy in my car. And again,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: it's the first time I've ever met him. And he says, well,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I drive down this block and we'll find a parking spot.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: And then we drove around. As I drove, he said,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: pull in over here. And he pointed to a, there
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: was a fire hydrant there. And there was some guys
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: playing dice against the fire hydrant. And I pulled into
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: the spot. And he asked me, now these guys are
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: playing dice right next to us. And I'm in the
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: car with this guy. And he asked me, are you
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: a cop? Because he, like I said, he doesn't know me.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: And we got, you know, a little bit of an
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: argument that obviously I'm going to tell him I'm not
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: a cop, right? And he said, okay, because if you
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: are a cop, this is what you got waiting for you.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: He says, take a look. And when I turned, the
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: guys that were playing the dice, one of the guys
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: had the Uzi machine gun stuck in my head.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: That is, that's really crazy. I don't know. That, that,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: That must have been uncomfortable for your family, too, dealing
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: with this kind of things. And, you know, every day
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: you don't know what's going to happen. So it must
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: have been very stressful for your family as well.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, I don't bring most of that stuff home,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: you know. We don't talk about it because there's no sense,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: you know. It just happens like anything else in life.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: It just happens. You deal with it and go on,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: So did they not know any of this until after
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: your book came out?
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Little bits, but not a lot of it, no.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: You spent a lot of time working with drugs and undercover,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: you know, as an undercover, but then your career changed
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: completely different and you went into the missing person squad?
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: How'd you end up there?
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: So when I was in the DEA doing these drug
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: buys and meeting these bad guys, I was doing a
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: lot of stuff on my own, which was frowned upon.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: You know, because a lot of times everyone, like the bosses,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: would ask me to start a case, let's say, in
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Red Hood Projects or Coney Island or other parts of,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: other bad neighborhoods, you know, specifically to target certain individuals
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: that were doing shootings and gang wars. And so... I
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: couldn't go there with the DEA agents doing surveillance on
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: me because I didn't know anybody. I wasn't being introduced
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: to these guys by another bad guy. You know, nobody was...
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Nobody was bringing on the covers, you know, cops to
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: meet bad guys because they were afraid for their lives.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: That's how bad these individuals were. So what I would
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: do is I would just go into these areas. I
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: knew who the targets were. I knew who the main
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: guys were, what they looked like. I knew their names
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: because they wanted... or suspected of doing all of these shootings.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: And what I would do is I would just go
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: hang out in these neighborhoods, dressed like soft clothes, and
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: I had an undercover car, and I played my music
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: kind of loud so everybody would look at me. And
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I'd get out and use pay phones, and I'd let
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: people see me, you know, and get a little bit
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: noticed in the area. And then after some time, I
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: would just kind of just meet people. And, you know, again,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: DEA didn't know about this at the time, Because if
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: they would, they wouldn't want them to follow me and
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: do surveillance. And these areas are hard to do surveillance
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: on because they're very isolated. Everybody knows everyone. So it's
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: bad enough they see one young Italian guy in the
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: neighborhood of all black and Hispanics. Now they're going to
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: see six or seven or eight unidentified vehicles that they've
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: never seen before. So these cases would have never started.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: So I did that several times and I met the
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: bad guy, the main target. And Once I'd meet the target,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: then I would let DEA know I had a case going.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: I'd have a conversation with this guy. I got his
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: cell phone number. Let's start this case. Let's start this case.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: And we would eventually start the case. And at some point,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: whether it was a month down the road or two
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: months or six months or eight months, we would eventually
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: arrest this guy either on a wiretap or make him
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: buy something. But I was warned or spoken to several
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: times about doing it that way because it was dangerous.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Dangerous for me and, you know, afraid that maybe I'll
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: get shot or somebody will get in the crossfire of
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: a shooting that I'm involved with. And I would tell
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: the DEA guys, look, this is the only way I
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: can do this. I can't get into it. You know,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: these guys are out there for years. Nobody can get
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: into them, and I'm getting into them. And at some point,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: they felt that it was too dangerous, and I was
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: taken out of there. And that's how I eventually... end
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: up in the missing person squad which is kind of
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: like not a heavy duty law enforcement unit it's more
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: like not a lot of law not a lot of
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: enforcement mostly a lot of clerical stuff.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: I guess it was maybe safer I'm not sure but
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: in a way.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah if you're not in the street doing enforcement then
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: you're doing clerical stuff but you know that wasn't my
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: thing I was never a clerical guy Well, it's like
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: a punishment. You know, I was actually punished.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: But yet that brought you to the disappearance of, is
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: it Eaton Patz?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Eaton Patz.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Could you please tell us about who he is and
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: how you became involved with that case?
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Sure. So Eaton Patz was a little boy, six years old, 1979.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: He was on his way to school for the first
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: time by himself. He lived in the solo area of Manhattan,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: which is downtown Manhattan. A lot of artists lived there
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: at the time. It was like an artsy kind of neighborhood.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: But in any event, he was... The first time he
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: was going to take the school bus on his own,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: and his mother was watching him out the window of
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: her apartment, which I think she was on the second
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: or third floor. And she's watching him walk to the
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: school bus, and one of her other children... started crying
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: or wanting her attention. And she took her eyes off
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: her son who was outside. And when she looked back,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: she didn't see him. She assumed that he jumped on
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the bus, school bus. It wasn't until later that evening
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: when they realized he never went to school that they
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: filed a missing person report. And Etan Page became one
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: of the biggest investigated or largest investigated cases ever in
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: New York City's history. In fact, President Ronald Reagan dedicated
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: May 25th to ETA. He called it National Missing Child
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Day after ETA paid because that's the day we're missing.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: And there's thousands and thousands of reports on it. I
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: can't tell you how many file cabinets based on this kid.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: You know, he just disappeared off the face of the earth. Wow.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: And they never found him?
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: They never found him, no. But a couple of years ago,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: a gentleman.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Pedro Hernandez, who has a mental history, like a psychological history,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: said that he took the kid that day, killed him
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: in a bodega and put him in a box and
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: he don't know what happened. Some sanitation took him or whatever.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: But because of his mental incapacities, they don't know So
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: he went to trial once, and it was a hung jury.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: They tried him again, and they convicted him. But people
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: who came to view the trial, a lot of jurors
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: from the first trial came to view the second trial,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: were actually in the stands crying because they don't think
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: he actually did it.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I know I heard that some guy named Tiny contacted
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: you and claimed that he had some information about Etan.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Right. So what happened was this inmate named John Lentini,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: he was a 1% biker and a very bad guy
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: in his own right. Actually, he was in jail for
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: sexually abusing and assaulting his infant daughter. But he was
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: doing time for that crime, for the abuse of his children.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: His wife was also arrested at the time, and she
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: cooperated against him. But in any event, he was in
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: jail and he called me up and he said he
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: had information on Etan Pates. So this was before this
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: guy Hernandez got arrested, before this guy Hernandez admitted to it.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: This was back in like 96, 97. And when he
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: calls me up about Etan Pates, he screwed the name
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: up on the telephone. Like he didn't pronounce it correctly.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: But I recognize kind of, you know, I'm familiar with
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: the case. Not that I worked on the case, because
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: when Etan was abducted, that was in 79. I was
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: only like 16 years old. But it was such a,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: like I said, it was such an infamous case that,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: of course, I recognize the name. There were flies. I'm
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: telling you, there were billboards and flies everywhere when Etan disappeared.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Like you couldn't walk 10 yards without seeing his pictures.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: But in any event, when Tiny calls me in 1997,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: he says that he has information on Etan Page. And
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: he says it's connected to probably one of the other
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: most investigated cases in New York City's history. Etan's disappearance,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: he says, is connected to David Berkowitz and the Son
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: of Sam case. For those that don't know, Son of
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Sam was a serial killer in 1976, 1977. And he
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: killed six people and shot seven others. Hold on. He,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: like I said, he was out there doing these killings
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: and shootings for a whole year. And New York City
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: was terrified, especially women with dark hair, long dark hair,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: because most of his victims had long dark hair. So
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: they thought he was targeting them. So women would dye
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: their hair or cutting their hair off or bleaching their hair,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: doing all kinds of stuff. But Berkowitz eventually gets arrested
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: in 1977. And when he gets arrested, he originally says
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: that his neighbor's dog told him to do it. So
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: basically he was capping out to like a insanity defense.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Shortly thereafter, he changes his story after he goes to jail.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: And he says it wasn't his neighbor's dog telling him
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: to do these killings. He says he was involved with
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: a satanic cult. And the cult, along with him and others,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: were doing these shootings and killings. Now, Tiny, when he
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: calls us up in 97, and I go see him
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: up in the state facility, state jail, he tells me
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: that Eton, so he tells me he, Tiny, and his
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: biker gang were contracted to do these, secure these mansions
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: in Westchester, New York, and Yonkers, New York. And They
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: would go there with their colors on, meaning their biker colors.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: And they would make sure that no cops came into
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: these mansions or busted the mansions or no people were
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: just trying to strain off the street and go there.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: So they were securing these locations. And after he did
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: it for some time, he eventually gets to know these
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: people that are paying him and the people that are
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: in these mansions. And what he sees mostly is like
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: sex parties and drug parties and that kind of stuff.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: And at this point, he's kind of got free reign
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: to come and go as he pleases. Because he was
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: actually the vice president of his gang. So him and
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: the president get to go in and out of these mansions,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: get high, and leave and sit outside. But in one
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: of these mansions, or one of these parties, he actually
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: sees people standing in a circle wearing this black gob
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: and chanting. And he stays in the background. And there's
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: an altar in the center. And he tells me that
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: he recognizes that they call up to the altar little
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Etan Pates. And when Etan comes to the altar, they
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: perform some kind of ritualistic ceremony with the kid. And
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: then at some point, he says he doesn't see this
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: because he leaves, which, you know, most bad guys would
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: say that anyway. But he says he leaves at the time,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: but he finds out later on that they sacrificed Etan Pates.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: And that cult is connected to the Berkowitz cult, the
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Son of Sam cult. And that's the connection. The Son
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: of Sam cult that was doing the shootings and the
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: killings were involved with this Etan Pates homicide.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Does that story seem more credible, that one that he gave?
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, he gave a lot of other information
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: that panned out, you know, it wasn't just a story
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: and that was it. He gave a lot of other, uh,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: information that we verified. Uh, you know, in my book,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: I talk about, I honestly say, and I mean it too,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I'm not here to convince you one way or the other.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I'm just here to tell you exactly what happened. And
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: I go through, you know, the conversations with Tony, which
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: I actually, you know, many, uh, I go through his
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: history because, like I said, he was no saint. I
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: go through what we verified. And, again, if people want
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: to dismiss it as a story, you know, I was
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: a cop a little over 20 years, and I've heard
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of people lie to me. And sometimes, you know,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: like anybody else, I can fall for people's stories. But
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I tended to believe a lot of it.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Did you come across a lot of satanic ritual
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: abuse in that division?
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: No, not really, no. No. No, it's not very... Common. Yeah,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: it's not a common thing, really.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I see. I talked to several people that talked about
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: their experience with that and being abused in that way. So, yeah,
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: I've heard a few different stories. at some point, there are.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: It's heartbreaking. It really is, especially to experience that and
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: to live with that the rest of your life, whether
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: you was involved in it or saw it or, yeah,
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: all those, all the above. It's... Messes you up, you know?
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's difficult.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. You also was involved in the disappearance of
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: a seven-year-old, Holly Ann Hughes.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, so Holly Ann Hughes, she lived on St. Island.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: And it actually ties into this case, to the Berkowitz
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: and that cult also. So there was a guy in St.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Island years ago, his name was Andre Rand. Huh. And
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: he had been arrested for sexually abusing kids. And at
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: one point in his life, what he did was he
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: took a yellow school bus, a yellow bus that kids
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: were on, and he just jumped in the driver's seat
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: and he took them to Newark Airport to watch the airplanes.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: And I think they were like from... I'm not sure,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: the YMCA or something, but anyway, he took this whole
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: school bus. He basically kidnapped all these little kids. He
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: didn't abuse them, but that's only because, well, I believe,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: and other people, again, this was before I got involved
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: with Amsterdam, they just believed that he got overwhelmed. like
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: all these little kids, and he didn't know what to do.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: But he had already been arrested for raping a very
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: young girl. The cops caught him in the car about
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: to rape a young girl. He was a suspect in
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: a bunch of different of people with mental issues like
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Down syndrome. He was always a suspect because he was
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: always seen around the area or whenever somebody was missing,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: he was there prior. So when Holly Ann knew he
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: was missing, she goes to the corner store. She was
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: a little girl. She goes to the corner store to
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: buy soap for her mother and she disappears. And what
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: happened was, again, he was a suspect, and he had
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: been seen in the area. But no one ever really,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: no one said that they saw them together. So even
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: though the cops grabbed him, meaning Andre Rand, to interview him,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: he said, you know, I drove by, I was just
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: driving by. So they really had nothing on him. And
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: then what happens is when I go to the missing persons,
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: I actually run into a woman that I know, a
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: friend of mine, that I hadn't seen in many years.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: I had known her from the Lower East Side, from
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: when I was in plainclothes. And she thought I was
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: still doing drugs, narcotics. And when I told her I
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: was a missing person, she asked me, she said, oh,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: you know, a friend of mine that I used to
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: work with, she was in the adult entertainment business, this girl,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: this woman. She said, a friend of mine I used
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: to work with, they kidnapped her daughter, Holly Ann, many
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: years ago, She said, and I know the mother was
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: devastated back then. She said, if you're a missing person,
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: if you have a chance, can you look into it
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: for me as a favor? And that's how I picked
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: up the case. You know, I mean, I had heard
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: of it, but I was not really aware of any
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: of it, you know? And I picked up the case
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: and I went through it. And this is, I was
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: still kind of doing the Etan Page case at the
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: same time. It was like juggling the two cases. And, um,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: I interviewed a bunch of people who had seen Andre
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Rand in the area, but nothing earth shattering. I didn't
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: get anything new. But there was a guy that was
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: interviewed that bothered me. He was like a neighborhood, kind
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: of like a down on their luck kind of guy.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: And he was from the neighborhood and he said he
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: had saw Andre Rand in the neighborhood and he saw
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Hollywood and used, but he didn't see them together. But
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: I just didn't buy his story, you know. And I finally,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: after trying to track him down for some time, because
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: he kind of knew that I was looking for him.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: I would go to his apartment. He wouldn't answer the door.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: But at some point, I finally catch him coming out
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: of his apartment. And I take him. I tell him,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: I want to come. I want to speak to you.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: And he didn't really want to go. He hesitated. But
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: he finally said, OK. He thought I was going to
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: take him to the local precinct, which is 10 minutes
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: from his house. when I was actually taking him to headquarters,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: the police headquarters in Manhattan. So, um, he was not,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: now he's really upset and on a defense, you know,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: very defensive. But basically what happens is he tells me
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: that he don't want to be a rat. He's, you know,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: like his, his whole, his whole thing was, he doesn't
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: want to be a rat. And, you know, I kind
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: of got a little bit forceful with him. Like this
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: isn't like a little, burglary that you're riding on. You're
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: not riding on a drug dealer selling a couple of
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: dying bags or pot to somebody. You're riding on a
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: guy that kills kids and abducted a little girl. And
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: I was able to, I guess, appeal to finally, after
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: all these years from 1981, this is like, again, 1997,
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: I was finally able to appeal to him. And he said,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: what do you want me to say? I said, I
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: want you to say exactly what happened. Just tell me
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: the truth. And he said, okay, I saw Holly and
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: you in Andre Rand's little green Volkswagen. And once he
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: gave that up, that was enough to start the process
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: rolling on Andre Rand. And during the course of the
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: interviews with people that knew Andre Rand, and he used
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: to live in like a, there was a hospital that
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: was closed down, Willowbrook, which was, they were abusing these mentally,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: incapacitated people. Adults and children. And they eventually closed that
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: hospital down. But he used to live on the grounds.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: And we went back to where his campsites were. And
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: he had all kinds of satanic graffiti. And then I
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: found one of his ex-girlfriends. I don't even know if
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: you could call her a girlfriend, but a girl that
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: he knew. And she said he used to read those satanic.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: So he was kind of involved. Maybe not exactly with
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: the cult, but He had that inclination.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, that's crazy. I want to move to September
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: 11 because you were watching what happened from television set.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: You actually was there. Can you take us back to
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: that morning and tell us where you were and when
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: you realized that New York City was under attack?
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, so Early in the morning, like, I'm just watching
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: the news as I was getting dressed to go to work.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: My office was actually in 7 World Trade Center, which
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: is part of, you know, World Trade Center. So as
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I'm watching the news, I saw that the plane had
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: already hit, and I thought it was just a pilot
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: that went off course with a private jet, like most
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: people thought, you know. I got dressed, and I headed
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: off to work like any other morning. And the traffic
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: was exceptionally bad this day. because Lower Manhattan was probably
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: already closed off after the one plane hit. But as
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: I'm in the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, I hear that a
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: second plane hit. And once the second plane hit, I
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: guess like most people, I felt that we were under attack.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: It was an accident at this point. Two planes hit
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: each tower. I knew we were under attack, or I
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: felt that we were. I had my lights and sirens on.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: I had an unmarked vehicle, unmarked government car. I put
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: my lights and sirens on, but there was nowhere for
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: the traffic to go. It was a two-lane tunnel. And
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: then at some point, an FDNY truck, a big fire truck,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: comes blaring their horns in the left lane, and people
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: are actually moving out of the way for the big truck,
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: you know? So I was able to maneuver right behind them,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: and I got out of the tunnel with them. And
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: once I got out of the tunnel... In downtown Manhattan,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: lower Manhattan, traffic was, again, a complete dead stop. So
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: I just pulled over in a fire hydrant pump, an
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: illegal spot. I just parked and pulled it over, and
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: I ran towards the building. But on the way there,
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: what I did was I stopped to use my cell
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: phones were out. All cell phones in the city were
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: out because the antennas were on the World Trade Center.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: So no cell phones were working. So I ran into
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: a corner bodega, and I asked the guy if I
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: could use his hotline, and of course he let me.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: I identified myself, and I called my wife, and I said, listen,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: I'm on my way to the World Trade Center. I'm okay.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to help people, you know, try to
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: evacuate to what I can do over there. And she was, okay,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: just be careful. I hung up the phone. I ran
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: over to the World Trade Center. I ID'd myself because
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: it was already, you know, blocked off and guarded off.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: I identified myself. I ran into the South Tower. FDNY,
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: a bunch of their big chiefs were in the lobby
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: with a big World Trade Center floor plan laid out.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: So I ran past them, and I ran up one staircase.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: My intention was to help evacuate the people because, you know,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: the main danger was the fire. When the plane hit,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: it caused all kinds of fire, so my intention was
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: to help people come out. you know, carry them out
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: from the fire. So I went up one flight of steps,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: and there was a lot of people coming down, and
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: so I didn't want to impede the traffic, so I
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: found another staircase. That staircase was actually, no one was
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: coming down, so I opened the door, I started to
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: run up, at which point I heard like a loud bang,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: a loud noise. I felt the building vibrate. I thought,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: it felt like an earthquake. I didn't realize the building,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: of course I didn't realize the building was coming down.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: I thought it was Like I was thinking earthquake. I turned,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: I was sold, fired. She's running. Building. And I followed.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: And that's when the building basically came down.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God. So you were buried.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Me like 15, 20 feet. Dropped the explosion through me
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: like 20 feet or so. I was buried, but not
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: in feet of soot, just a couple of inches of
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: the building, you know. And then eventually I was able to,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: somebody actually, it got real dark from the smoke, from
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: the building disintegrating. There was no sound because the air
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: was too thick. Couldn't carry through all the debris. And
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: at some point, somebody helped me get up and took
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: me to the hospital. The hospital had no people. All
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: the doctors and nurses were actually waiting for people to
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: come in, and nobody ever showed up because everybody, for
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: the most part, was killed. Yeah, all the doctors and
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: nurses were on alert, expecting all this big rush of people.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: I was there a short time, maybe, I don't know, half,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: 45 minutes. They got to clean me up. I was
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: all full of stuff, and my eyes were all screwed up.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: They eventually cleaned me up, and I'm watching the doctors
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: and nurses. Everybody's anticipating this big rush of people, but again,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: no one came because most of the people died.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: That must have been something to experience something like that.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: You're very fortunate that you didn't die along with everybody else.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: How did you manage to get out though? I know
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: you said you weren't buried very deep, but still you
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: were inside the building when that happened. You were very fortunate.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was in the building and I was fortunate.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Like I said, when it finally did crash down, the
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: impact threw me. Yeah. I landed on my back again.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: And then what happened was it was really dark and silent.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: And then at some point, a detective who I actually
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: kind of know, I didn't know, I couldn't see him
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: at the time, obviously. But he was from the Austin
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Explosion Squad. And he carried this big light for this
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: kind of a situation, actually. He had it in his car.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: And he flashed it up into the sky. And he said,
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: if anybody could see the light, try to walk towards
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: the light. And I was, like I said, I was
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: on my back. And I was able to, at some point,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: to turn over and get up. And I walked towards
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: the light. And when he saw me standing, he came
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: and he scooped me up. And he brought me to...
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: To this day, I don't know where he brought me,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: but he brought me to another building and cleaned me
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: off a little bit. Then at some point I went
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: to the hospital.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: My goodness. And you're fortunate that you didn't get sick
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: because a lot of people who survived and got all
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: that soot had problems with their lungs, got cancer, all
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: kinds of stuff. And you're very fortunate. It's like you
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: had an angel. You know what he saved me, actually?
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. I always say that. My guardian angel
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: would work double time that day.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what I think saved
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: my lungs, honestly? I tell people. So when he took
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: me into this building, there was a gentleman off to
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: the side, and he was vomiting. And that normally wouldn't
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: bother me. But it got me sick, and I threw up.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: And I started throwing up all of this black stuff
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: that I had must have swallowed when the building came down. Yeah.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: And just like poison was coming out of me for
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: literally five minutes straight. And I honestly think that's what
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: saved me, coughing all that stuff up. That's incredible.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: I never thought about that. You're probably right.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because you're in that. Otherwise you would have saved
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: my system.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Exactly.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, your angels were working overtime that day. It's
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: been 25 years since September 11. When you look back
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: on that day, I guess what stays with you most?
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: You know what? Not so much that day, but in
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: the coming days, what stays with me is how the
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: country came together. You know, I tell everyone, people were
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: coming in from all parts of the country, giving up
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: their family, giving up their jobs, just to help dig
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: out and look for people, like to help with the rescue.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, people, I'm not talking about well-off people. I mean,
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: people that were struggling, you know, just to make ends meet.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: And they would come stay at like these real cheap hotels,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: a bunch of guys that hardly knew each other. And
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: they'd get up early in the morning, every morning, and
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: go down and help dig. Go back home, you know,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: go back to this hotel, wherever it would be, or motel,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: and do it again. And these were people from, I mean,
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: every part of the country, you know. And, again, they
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: didn't even know each other. And they were just, of course,
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: they didn't know the victims. And they just dug their
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: heels in, and it was really amazing.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was living in New Jersey when that happened,
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: and I had left my cell phone in my car,
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: and I was cleaning a lady's house at the time,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: a Jewish family, and her husband came home early that day,
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: and I was surprised because it's, I think it was
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: at this time about 11 o'clock, 10, 45, 11 o'clock.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: And I didn't know what happened. I didn't have the
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: TV on. And I said, oh, nice to have you home.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: And you know, and what brings you home so early?
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: And he's like, the World Trade Center just fell. And
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, that's really funny. Okay. That's a
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: good reason to be home. And he's like, Honey, I'm
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: not kidding. I said, what? Are you serious? And he
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: turned on the TV and that's when I saw it.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what? I'm like, I got to go home.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: I can't, I can't be here. He said, go home,
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: go home. And then when I got to my car,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: I realized my cell phone was in there and my
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: husband was trying to call me. And he told me
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: that he picked the kids up from school and brought
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: them home already. And I'm like, oh, thank God, because
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: I had no idea what was going on. I was
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: literally in my own world. And yeah, everything changed from
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: that point on. My neighbor at the time, she is
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: from Middle East. And I remember, I think it was
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: a few days later, we were crying because we knew
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: that it was going to change for her and her son.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: Her son was five at the time. And she was
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: afraid because of what was going on at the time.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: And she's like, I don't want anything bad to happen
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: to my son because he's innocent from all this. But
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: they're from the Middle East. But they were good people.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: She was, I think she was Catholic. She had left
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: her country, and she was forced to marry the person
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: that they had arranged at the time when she was young.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: But they came to America, and after she came to America,
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: she was like, I am not this whatever way. I
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: want to be an American. So she divorced him. That's
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: something completely out of their culture, but she did. She
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: divorced him. And she was trying to raise her son
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: on her own. And she's like, oh, my God, this
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: is crazy. So, yeah, it was such a crazy time
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: at the time. I'll never forget it. And we visited
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: because I was in New Jersey. And so we drove
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: up to the New Jersey side of the river where
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: you could see, I guess it's Hoboken where you can
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: see the Twin Towers at the time. And all you
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: could see was smoke. And I remember driving up there
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: and you saw all these missing people, posters everywhere and signs.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: And like you said, the people that came together was amazing.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: I never saw anything like that. I remember driving. We
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: went to New York shortly after that. And I remember
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: seeing all these military people around with their guns and
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: we're like, hey. you know, thank you. Thank you for
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: your service where everybody was so like pumped up, you know? Yes, exactly.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: It was so, yeah, it was so like patriotic. Thank you.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: Everybody was so respectful to them and it was, it was,
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: it was great. Um, to, to see that camaraderie to, to,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: to bring us together and not the division that we see,
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: you know, like today and things like that. There was, we,
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: we came together strong and it was great. It was
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: great to see that.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: It was a different time. It's, it's, it's changed of
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: course from, from now and then, but at the time,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: I'll never forget that. I'll never forget that.
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It was something. We left shortly after that. I
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: think things got really difficult and different. We started seeing
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: things change. I'm from Hawaii, so we moved to Hawaii.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: For me, we moved back to Hawaii in 2003. We
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: left the area. My dad is from New Jersey. I
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: lived there for a little while, but not my favorite place. But, yeah,
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: I lived there. for some time. And, yeah, shortly after that,
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: we saw things changing already for the worst, and we
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: came here. I was like, I can't. I need to
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: come here. And that's how we came over here. But, yeah,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: what an experience. And back then, too, especially being in
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: New Jersey area, we all knew someone that knew someone,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: if not, that was involved in this.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. My brother was living in Hoboken. Not Hoboken. What
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: was that called? I think it was Hoboken. It's a
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: really bad area, though. What is that, like Martin Luther King?
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: Jersey City? Jersey City. I believe that's what it was.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: It's a really, really bad area. But he was working
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: at HMSA at the time. And he said he could
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: see from his building, from his office, he could see
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: what happened. He saw, well, I guess right after the
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: plane hit, he saw the smoke. And I guess he
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: was trying to call me too and let me know,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: but I didn't have my phone. So I had no
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: idea what was going on. Yeah, I was... That was, yeah.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: For like two and a half hours, I had no
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: idea what was going on. I was blind. Yeah, it
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: was crazy.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: That's why I tell my kids and my wife, well,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: she understands, but put the TV on before you leave
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: the house in the morning.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: Because you don't know. You know, you could be on
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: your way to work and there could have been an
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: explosion in your building. You don't know. Just take two minutes.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: And back then, I think cell phones were just coming.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like today's cell phone. So it was like
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: a little tiny flip phone that I had. Yeah, that
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: I had just in case of an emergency. That was
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: the thing back then, just in case. It wasn't something
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: like we use today, always on our hips or in
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: our hands. So it was easy for me to leave.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: It was easy for me to leave my phone and
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: not think about it. which I don't do no more.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: But after everything you encountered throughout your life and career,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: has any of it changed what you believe of good
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: and evil or even what you believe spiritually?
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, like I tell people in the book,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: I've dealt with a lot of bad people. And a
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: lot of times, especially as I got older, While I
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: was still a cop, though, I would say to myself,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: you know, there before the grace of God, that could
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: be me, you know? But Tiny was on a different level.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Tiny was evil. Like, when he walked in the room,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: you felt evil. Like, I'd interviewed people that killed people.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: You know, I've interviewed bad people. But Tiny was on
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: a whole different level, you know? He was evil, uh...
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: If the devil lives in people, he was living in tiny.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: And writing, believe it or not, writing the book, I've
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: always been Roman Catholic, although I wasn't always a super
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: faithful Roman Catholic. But writing the book actually brought me
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: back to the faith because a lot of it I
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: pushed out of my head. And then when I was
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: writing it and reading it, it changed things for me.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: So spiritually, I think, honestly, in today's world especially, I
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: actually think we're involved with a spiritual war. You know,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: Tiny spoke about things that, you know, you see now
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: on Instagram and the signs that these celebrities make and
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: the parties that they go to, how they don't hide their,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the Olympics. They made fun of the Last Supper.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: You know, we're actually involved in the spiritual world. People
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: don't see it. But he had talked about it in 1997,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: you know, and there was no internet then. So he
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: wasn't talking about something he saw on Instagram. This is
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: stuff that he lived and he knew because he became
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: a high priest in the cult. Tiny actually became a
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: big shot in that cult. And when he started giving
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: us information, he would talk about the Bohemian Grove story
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: the Bilderberg Group, and I had never heard that stuff.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: That was, you know, I couldn't, you couldn't Google it.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: There was no Google then. So, you know, and it
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: was like overwhelming. And he would talk about the celebrities
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: and their parties and their, you know, he was way
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: ahead of his time. He was involved with this stuff.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: And people today don't see it. And it's true. It's
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: not make-believe. It's not fiction. It's true.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: Wow. I talked to many people that tell me about
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: those things, exactly what you're saying. And they, like I said,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: they've been involved in it. They know it somehow and
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: they talk about it. It's crazy. I never heard of
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: those things either until very recently. It's very shocking. Yeah.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Before you go, you have two books. Alphabetville, Alphaville, right?
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: Is that your newest book?
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: No, that's my first book.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's your first book. Wow. Okay. Tell me about
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: your books and tell us a little bit and about
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: that and where we can find and where we can
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: pick up a copy of your book.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Okay. So Alphaville 1988, it's called the, the exact title
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: is Alphaville, New York city, 1988. Welcome to heroin city.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: So that's my first book. That's about 12 years old. That,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: It talks about my growing up in Brooklyn and becoming
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: a cop and the cases I worked in Alphabet City
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: and dealing with the informants and that stuff. My other
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: book just came out. It's on pre-order now on Amazon.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: It comes out October 15th. It's called The Evil That
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: Walked New York. The Connection Between the Son of Sam
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: and Eton Pates. And that talks about the actual connection,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: the satanic cult, the stuff Tiny told me, the stuff
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: that we were just talking about, the things that these
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: celebrities are up to. And it goes through the case.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: You know, and again, I wasn't, I'm not trying to
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: stick anything down anybody's throat, whether to believe it or
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: not to believe it. But this is what happened. This
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: is what happened to me. You know, the head of
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: that cult, the cult's name was actually the Process Church
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: of Final Judgment. And that's the cult that was, he
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: was born in Shanghai. His name is Robert the Grimson.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: He was born in Shanghai. Then he was actually one
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: of L. Ron Hubbard's first students, Scientologists. And then he
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: actually takes L. Ron Hubbard's wife or girlfriend, and Robert
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: the Grimson and L. Ron Hubbard's wife start this Process
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Church of Final Judgment. And it's that cult. And in
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: the course of the investigation, Now, at first he lived
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: in Shanghai. He was from the UK. He opened up
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: in the 50s in the Los Angeles area. He had
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: all these celebrities that were following him. He was like
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: a guru, you know. It ends up that he lived
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: like 15 minutes from my house. Of all the places
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: to live, he lived right next, right near me. So
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: the book is very strange and there were a lot
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: of coincidences that were kind of unique to me in
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: the investigation. Um, And it's a fun, you know, it's
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: a quick read, you know, interesting, fun read.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: Well, Mike, thank you so much for coming on and
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: sharing all of this information with me and my listeners.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: And again, thank you for your service and everything you've
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: done throughout your career, especially on 9-11. I appreciate you
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: taking the time to share your life experience with us.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: It's been an absolute pleasure having you here. Truly an honor.