Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Poison Specialist's Wife Sudden Death, BY POISON

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Poison Specialist's Wife Sudden Death, BY POISON · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a loving wife and a
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: well respected pharmacist at nowhere else but the Mayo Clinic
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: dies unexpectedly. What happened? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: and on series XM one eleven, trying to figure out
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: what happened to Betty Bowman. Healthy as a horse and
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: then suddenly bam gone, just like that of natural causes.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Let's just start at the beginning. Take a listen to this.
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  Speaker 2: On August twenty first, twenty twenty three, the Southeast Minnesota
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Medical Examiner's Office alerted the Rochester Police Department to the
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  Speaker 2: suspicious death of Betty Bowman. She died on Agith and
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: the Medical Examiner's Office had to halt a cremation order
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  Speaker 2: after learning of possible suspicious circumstances. According to court records,
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  Speaker 2: the Medical Examiner's Office received a call from CGK, a
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  Speaker 2: female friend of the Bowmans.
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  Speaker 1: Huh okay, So just because a friend calls the hospital,
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  Speaker 1: suddenly everything's off again. Thank you for being with us
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: here at Crime Stories. We're taking a very close look
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: at the death of a thirty two year old Mayo
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: clinic pharmacist who suddenly dies. Now when she goes in
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: to the hospital, she's perfectly fine in the weeks leading
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  Speaker 1: up to that. But then how does everything go so
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: horribly wrong? And I will go first to Karen Start,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: joining us renowned psychologists, joining us out of Manhattan, TV
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  Speaker 1: radio trauma expert. You can find her at Karenstart dot
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  Speaker 1: com and that's spelled Karen with to see Karen. I
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: think the shock of someone dying young and unexpectedly, it's
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  Speaker 1: a whole different thing than when someone is in the
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  Speaker 1: hospital or they're elderly. I guess, in a way, even
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  Speaker 1: though there's no way to ever be ready to say
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: goodbye to somebody you love. And I know that whether
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  Speaker 1: they die of old age or like my fiancee is
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  Speaker 1: murdered in his twenties, unexpectedly, there's no good way to
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: say goodbye to somebody you love. But when it's sudden
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  Speaker 1: and unexpected that it's a whole other layer to the
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  Speaker 1: process of getting through it. You have the right words.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: I don't. I'm just a lawyer. You explain, Karen Stark.
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  Speaker 3: Bringing up your fiance That's a great example, because.
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  Speaker 1: Karen, just because of you, you remember I gave up coffee,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: you know, when I was pregnant with the twins because
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: of you and your analysis of all of these murders.
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  Speaker 1: I've gone back to the hard stuff. I'm back on coffee.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you. Go ahead.
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  Speaker 3: But when you're talking about trauma, this is a great
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  Speaker 3: example because the family, the friends, the people that were
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  Speaker 3: close to her, they have more trouble getting over something
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  Speaker 3: like this.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: You don't ever get over.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: Losing somebody that you love. But when it's traumatic like this,
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: when someone is healthy and described as being somebody that
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: loved people had all this energy and then overnight enters
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: the hospital and they did in a few days, they
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  Speaker 3: just they're gone. That leaves you with something that you
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: can't stop thinking about. It's stayed, it's indelible, it's etched
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: into you, and it takes so much work to be
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: able to even live your life normally again without obsessing
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: about what could have.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: Happened, What did I.
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  Speaker 3: Do wrong, why didn't I say something? How am I responsible?
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  Speaker 3: Even though you're not really affects people in a very
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: strong way, because it's not it's really like out of
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  Speaker 3: left field.
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  Speaker 5: You know.
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  Speaker 1: Another thing about that, Karen Stark, Sometimes I have such
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  Speaker 1: a huge long to do list every day. Sometimes I
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  Speaker 1: forget some of them, not often, but sometimes, But I
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  Speaker 1: remember distinctly every word that was said when I learned
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  Speaker 1: Keith had been murdered. Because when I found out he
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  Speaker 1: had passed away, See, it's hard for me to still
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: say dead. I thought that there been a car crash.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I didn't really know what had happened. In a period
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  Speaker 1: of time passed and then I found out he was murdered.
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  Speaker 1: And I remember the pastor at my little Methodist church,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: I said, what happened and he was murdered. I remember
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  Speaker 1: the entire conversation verbatim. Now, how can that be, Karen,
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  Speaker 1: when I can forget it to do list?
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  Speaker 3: Because what happens when you get that kind of news fancy,
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  Speaker 3: it's kind of like a movie that plays in your head.
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  Speaker 3: You remember everything that was said to you and what
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  Speaker 3: you've and it's just it becomes stuck because it's just
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  Speaker 3: so unexpected and it's not anything.
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  Speaker 1: There's no script for it.
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  Speaker 3: Your whole life story changes.
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  Speaker 1: Joining me in addition to Karen Stark and again you
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  Speaker 1: can find her at Karenstark dot com. And I want
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: to tell you we have not only been colleagues for many,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: many years. We spent hours sitting together in the dark
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: of a Court TV studio watching trials live.
• 5:37
  Speaker 6: Boy, you did.
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  Speaker 1: That's how I met Karen Stark at Court TV Third Avenue,
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  Speaker 1: New York, when I did live trial coverage every single day,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: and she would get up and come to the morning
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  Speaker 1: shift with me. Had to be there at seven am. Guys,
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about a thirty two year old young woman
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  Speaker 1: so suddenly kills over in the hospital. There's really no
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  Speaker 1: good way to put that. Joining me right now of Rochester.
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  Speaker 1: Charles Kelly, reporter and anchor KTTC News, Charles, this woman
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  Speaker 1: was actually beloved. You know, people actually get attached to
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  Speaker 1: their pharmacist. I got attached to our pharmacist and even
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  Speaker 1: the checkout person. I think it was the walgrains when
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: the twins were first born, because we were there so much,
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  Speaker 1: Charles Kelly, we were there like between the two of
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  Speaker 1: them every third day getting something for them, and they
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  Speaker 1: knew us, and we knew them and their families because
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: we saw them all the time. And that's the way
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  Speaker 1: this woman, Betty Bowman was. She was actually beloved at
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: the Mayo Clinic. I mean and Charles Kelly, can you
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  Speaker 1: get any better than the Mayo Clinic? Really?
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  Speaker 7: No, the world renowned Mayo Clinic. That that is what
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  Speaker 7: Rochester is very much known for.
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  Speaker 1: It is world renown, it is, and they don't hire
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  Speaker 1: just me schlump off the streets. So this woman had
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: to be super smart and at the top of her game,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: and now she's killing over guys. Take a listen to
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: our friends at crimeonline dot com.
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  Speaker 2: Born and raised in Wichita, Kansas, Betty Bowman is the
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  Speaker 2: kind of woman people like to call a friend. She's smart, loyal,
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  Speaker 2: and exceptionally thoughtful. She graduated from the University of Kansas
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  Speaker 2: School of Pharmacy with a pharmaceutical doctorate and completed residency
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  Speaker 2: at Stormont Vale Hospital into Peka, Kansas. Betty and Connor
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  Speaker 2: Bowman got married in May of twenty twenty one and
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  Speaker 2: lived in Rochester, Minnesota, where Betty worked as a hospital
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  Speaker 2: pharmacist while Connor went through internal medicine residency.
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  Speaker 1: Oh on, right there, Wait, is this another case of
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: the wife putting the husband through medical school? Jackie ise
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: that what happened, Charles Kelly? Does she put him through
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  Speaker 1: medical school while she worked as a pharmacist I.
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  Speaker 7: Just know they both are very well educated medical experts.
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  Speaker 7: But she was in medical school and then not sure
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  Speaker 7: what the timeline is with their schooling.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I know she got a doctorate, completed her residency
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: in Topeka. They get married twenty twenty one. Betty worked
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: as a pharmacist while he went through his residency. I
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: guess they met somewhere along the way in studies. She
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  Speaker 1: went all the way to get her doctorate. So you know,
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  Speaker 1: let me throw this out to doctor Lyle D. Burgoon,
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  Speaker 1: President CEO Rapptor Farm and Talks Fellow of the Academy
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: of Toxicological Sciences Critical Science podcast. Wow, you're a toxicology expert.
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  Speaker 1: How do you have time to do all that? Doctor Lyle?
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  Speaker 1: Don't answer that. That was rhetorical, doctor Lyle Burgoon, I'm
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: going to call you doctor Lyle. That's okay, Doctor Lyle,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: just a personal known on pharmacy studies. When I went
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: to college, I said Mom, what should I be? She said,
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  Speaker 1: be a pharmacist. You'll always have a job. I'm like, okay,
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  Speaker 1: I'll be aharmacists. I did not take chemistry in high school.
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  Speaker 1: Was it required? So I go to college to be
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  Speaker 1: a pharmacist, and I looked up. I didn't even know
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  Speaker 1: what the elements were. I'm like, what is that? Then
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: I found out I was supposed to already know all that.
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  Speaker 1: Needless to say, I fainted in the first lab when
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I smelled all the chemicals. Hey, going to an autopsy
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  Speaker 1: or a crime saying no problem, no problem, I don't
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  Speaker 1: care how many dead bodies are in there, but that
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  Speaker 1: chemistry lab I passed out anyway. Needless to say, I
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: did not do well at that. So I have my
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  Speaker 1: hat off to anybody that can fight their way through.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: It's like walking down Fifth Avenue through chewing gum, getting
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: through all that chemistry. So what do you have to
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  Speaker 1: do to get a doctor? I'm trying to find out
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  Speaker 1: about this woman. I'm going to know everything I can
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  Speaker 1: find out. What do you know?
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  Speaker 8: Yeah, so to get a doctorate in pharmaceutical sciences or
• 10:00
  Speaker 8: hers is probably a doctorate of pharmacy or actually pharmaceutical
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  Speaker 8: scientist too.
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  Speaker 1: Did you just say you're a pharmaceutical what you're a
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  Speaker 1: pharmaceutical scientist? What did you just say?
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  Speaker 8: Oh, I'm a pharmacologist, which is kind of related. So
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  Speaker 8: I can't just spend drugs like a pharmacist can. But
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  Speaker 8: you know, when I was in grad school, we would
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  Speaker 8: study drugs and chemicals and how they do things, and
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  Speaker 8: then we would turn around.
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  Speaker 9: We would actually teach.
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  Speaker 8: In the well, we have a pharmacy program where I was,
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  Speaker 8: but we would teach in the medical schools and the
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  Speaker 8: pharmacy schools.
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  Speaker 1: And where were you, by the way, I was at
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Michigan State University. Well that's a great school.
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  Speaker 9: It is. Love it.
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  Speaker 1: So this woman really again at the top of her
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  Speaker 1: game and beloved, and all of our coworkers talked about
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  Speaker 1: how thoughtful she was, had a traditional upbringing in Kansas,
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  Speaker 1: in Wichita, beloved by her family. Can you imagine that
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  Speaker 1: phone call. Everything's fine one day and the next day
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  Speaker 1: she's dead. So let's get down to it. What happened?
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Dave mac.
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  Speaker 2: At thirty two years old, Betty Bowman passes away from
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: a sudden onset autoimmune and infectious illness. Family and friends
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  Speaker 2: are shocked. Betty Bowman was suffering from what seemed like
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: food poisoning, gastro intestinal distress, and dehydration when she was
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  Speaker 2: admitted at the Mayo Clinic Saint Mary's Hospital on August sixteenth,
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  Speaker 2: but her condition didn't get better. She took a turn
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  Speaker 2: for the worse, with heart problems, fluid built up in
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  Speaker 2: her lungs, and the removal of part of her colon
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  Speaker 2: after it was discovered it contained necrotic tissue. This before
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  Speaker 2: she died from organ failure.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, that was like drinking from the fire hydrant, Nancy.
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  Speaker 1: That was a lot of information. Is that, del Carson?
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  Speaker 10: It is?
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  Speaker 4: You know this is something with Okay, I just want.
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  Speaker 1: To point out the deal. Carson is a veteran trial lawyer,
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  Speaker 1: a high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville. He knows nothing
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  Speaker 1: about pharmacology. He's not a medical doctor. Yet he's interrupting
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  Speaker 1: the doctors and the toxicologists. Okay, I can't wait to
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  Speaker 1: hear this. Go ahead, Dale Carson.
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  Speaker 11: That's why I was an FBI agent because I saw
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  Speaker 11: that than a lot of other people.
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  Speaker 1: Right, and he's certainly never been accused of being modest.
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  Speaker 1: Go ahead, there you go.
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  Speaker 9: She was at Mayo Clinic. She's a doctor at Mayo Clinic.
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  Speaker 9: She got the best care in the world. Immediately, those people.
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  Speaker 11: Love one another when they're in practice together, so it's
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  Speaker 11: not like she got reduced medical care. She got the
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  Speaker 11: world's premium medical care. And it's a wonder she doesn't survive.
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  Speaker 1: It's a wonder. I got to tell you my mom,
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  Speaker 1: My mom was having a lot of difficulties, and Jackie,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: it was during Dancing with the Stars, so there's already
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: true ress. Plus I was working full time, Plus I
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  Speaker 1: had the twins living in a little bit of the apartment.
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  Speaker 1: And in the middle of all this, my mom, who
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: was with me, got ill and we rushed her out
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  Speaker 1: from La across the country to the Mayo Clinic and
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: they were amazing. So what you just said, Dell Carson
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: was dead on. Absolutely. If you can't the Mayo Clinic,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: it can't help you. Nobody can help you. So all
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: of a sudden she dies and I need to speak
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: to doctor Lyle Bragoon again. Doctor Lyle, Well, what does
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: this mean? So she goes in for what do you say,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: food poisoning and suddenly she has part of her colon removed.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: It contained necrotic tissue. Now, necro, that means dead necrophiliac.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: What is necrotic tissue in your colon?
• 13:34
  Speaker 8: It's exactly as you said, it's dead tissue. Basically, that
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  Speaker 8: part of the large.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: Intestine just died for some reason.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, food poisoning, and suddenly your tissue
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: in your body is dead. See I'm into a lot
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: of autopsies, doctor Lyle, but I've never heard they go
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: in and they find dead tissue in your body. How
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: do you get dead tissue?
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  Speaker 8: So usually what happened and you know, if we see
• 14:01
  Speaker 8: that tissue, it's you have a lack of oxygen so
• 14:05
  Speaker 8: that the blood flow to the area has stopped.
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  Speaker 9: You know. One of the things that you might see
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  Speaker 9: if you.
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  Speaker 4: If you just came out of an.
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  Speaker 8: Intestinal surgery of some kind, maybe an appendix removal or
• 14:15
  Speaker 8: something like that. One of the things that they're concerned
• 14:18
  Speaker 8: about is that the intestines will actually loop around themselves
• 14:21
  Speaker 8: and create a knot. And what that'll do is they'll
• 14:23
  Speaker 8: stop all the blood flow to a part of your intestine. So, uh,
• 14:26
  Speaker 8: that's why they're really happy if you're actually passing gas
• 14:29
  Speaker 8: and able to you know, uh poop for lack of
• 14:33
  Speaker 8: a better word. Uh, They're they're excited because it means
• 14:35
  Speaker 8: that you haven't you don't have a knots in your intestine,
• 14:38
  Speaker 8: because if you do, what will happen is the blood
• 14:40
  Speaker 8: flow will stop, the tissue there will die, and yeah,
• 14:43
  Speaker 8: it becomes a chronic.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I'm understanding what you're saying. A lot is
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: making sense now. After my dad, he had three open
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: heart surgeries plus countless others. He had, you know, stants,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: He had the as I call it, the road o
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: radar cleaning out your he had his Karate, arnored everything Johne,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: and he exercised. He was not overweight, he ate a
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: strict heart diet. He just had a bad heart. Long
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: story short, he has three open art surgeries. One of
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: the first questions they ask, and I'm looking over at Jackie,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: is did he poop yet? I'm at the time, of course,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: one of the times I was a high schooler, one
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: of the times I was in law school. Every time,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: I'm like, Dad, I don't know, but what does that
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: have to do with his heart? You just made perfect
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: sense and you answered a very mysterious question. Time Stories
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: with me. It's he Grace trying to figure out why
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: this woman has did tissue and she just went in
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: the hospital for food poisoning. Okay, let's hear more from
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: crime stories investigative reporters.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: While Betty Bowman was in the hospital. Connor Bowman suggested
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: she was suffering from a very rare illness referred to
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: as HLH. Tests were done for HLH, but they were inconclusive.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Regardless of the facts, Connor Bowman told multiple people his
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: wife died from HLH and even included HLH as a
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: cause of death in her obituary.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, let me understand. What is h l H. I'm
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: going to be the brave one on this panel. Heemo
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: fay goctic go hemo fe gaw cidic hemo, vegasitic faga hemo,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: vegasitic limpho his dion scytosis. I think is what HLH is.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: But Charles Kelly, what is h LH?
• 16:54
  Speaker 7: HLH is a rare illness and it's an It's like
• 16:58
  Speaker 7: an autoimmune disorder.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Ah is that right, doctor Lyell? Auto immune disorder?
• 17:04
  Speaker 8: Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: So she goes in with food poisoning and she dies
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: of auto immune disorder. But wait a minute. Tests were
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: done for HLH at the urging of her husband, who
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: identified her ailment as HLH, and the result was inconclusive. Okay,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: let's hear more.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: On August fourteenth, Betty Bowman told him friend that she
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: had a few days off work and was looking forward
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: to hanging out. Betty Bowman and her friend were texting
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: each other in the evening when Betty told him she
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: was a home with Connor Bowman. The next morning, Betty
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Bowman texted the same friend that she was sick, could
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: not sleep at all because she felt so ill. She
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: told the friend that she thought it was a drink
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: she had the night before that caused her illness because
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: it was mixed in a large smoothie.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, right there. I may not know how to pronounce hi.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: I might not know about pharmacological studies, but I do
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: know when you are given a large smoothie and you
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: suddenly become so sick that you go into the hospital
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: and die. My spidery senses are up. I want to
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: go now to another special guest. Robin Drake is joining US.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Behavior expert. Former FBI special agent like del Carson, now lawyer.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Drake FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, author of Sizing People Up,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: a veteran FBI agent's manual for behavior Prediction, which is incredible.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: I love the part of that title, Manual for Behavior
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Prediction is dead on Robin Drake. Robin Drake, so much
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: is happening surrounding the diagnosis of Betty Bowman, and I
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: don't know that we really get a clear cod cause
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: of death on Betty, but so far I don't like
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: that she drink something. And then the last time I
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: had food poisoning, and I rarely get it, I've got
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: a cast iron stomach. I was in Vegas because I
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: was spying on the children. They had a class trip
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: to the Grand Canyon, which was in the eighth grade.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Of course, I knew up here that they were going
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: to be fine, but in case anything went wrong, I
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: wanted to be nearby instead of on the other side
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: of the country. So flew to Vegas with David, my husband,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: And even though they were all out in the Grand Canyon,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to be near them in case they
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: somehow had a problem. While there, I ate at a
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: sushi restaurant. Never gotten sick off sushi, but that night
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I was sick, sick, sick in through the next day.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: But I didn't end up dead in the hospital from
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: bad sushi. I want you to hear this, Robin Drake. Listen.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: It is stated that Connor Bowman told the Medical Examiner's
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: office that his wife should be cremated immediately and argued
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: that her death was natural. Bowman attempted to cancel the autopsy,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: claiming Betty Bowman did not want to be a cadaver.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: During the same time, Connor Bowman was corresponding via email
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: with one of the death investigators with the Medical Examiner's
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: office and asking the investigator if the toxicology analysis being
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: completed would be more thorough than the analysis typically done
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: at the hospital. Bowman also asked for a list of
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: what was specifically going to be tested for.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Number One, I see a big fat lie. Just because
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: you have an autopsy doesn't mean you're going to be
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: used as a cadaver a dead body at a medical school.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: That's not what that means. People have autopsies all the
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: time and they are put to rest in the family plot.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: So by saying no, no, no, I don't want an autopsy,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: she never wanted to be a cadaver. Those two said nonsecuatory.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: They don't follow each other. Okay, right there, Drake, right there,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: I got a problem. You want to rush somebody to cremation.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: In my world, that's a red flag. Maybe not in
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: other people's worlds, but in my world that's a problem.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: And then when you start sniffing around trying to find
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: out what drug panels were run, wh's toxicology panels were
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: run on your dead wife's body in the hospital, And
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: how does that compared to what's going to be done
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: at the medical examiner's office. I definitely smell a rat, Drake.
• 21:33
  Speaker 6: I'm with you, Nanthy.
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: You know, when we're looking at human behavior, we as
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: human beings, we do a really really good job of
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: establishing patterns and routines of the people around.
• 21:43
  Speaker 9: Us, of ourselves.
• 21:44
  Speaker 12: You highlighted yourself and your own food poisoning. You could
• 21:47
  Speaker 12: readily identify what it was because it deviated from what you.
• 21:51
  Speaker 6: Normally have and you had a reaction to it.
• 21:53
  Speaker 10: And so what his behavior was doing was deviating from
• 21:56
  Speaker 10: a pattern, and her death deviated from her entire lifestyle.
• 22:02
  Speaker 6: So her friends and family are really the.
• 22:04
  Speaker 12: Heroes here, as well as the medical examiner that really highlighted.
• 22:08
  Speaker 10: That this is really unusual. And then his behavior is
• 22:11
  Speaker 10: also highly unusual.
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: So there's lots of deviations.
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: And people stood up and said something.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: I like what you said about deviations, because I rarely
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: wear somewood to dot com get sick. My husband, who
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: is six 'y three, he claims to weigh two hundred
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: and fifty pounds. I don't know if that's real or not.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Former football player, blah blah blah. He actually has a
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: very delicate system. He's constantly sniffing and sneezing and claiming
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: hay fever and whatever. He's actually very delicate. So for
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: him to suddenly get a cold and get OTCS over
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: the counter meds, which I detest, that's not unusual for him.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: So this is a deviation. This woman didn't get sick,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: she didn't have a delicate stomach or delicate disposition, and
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: so this is very unusual. So let me go to
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: the source. Doctor Lyle d. Burgoon, toxicology expert, president and
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: CEO of Raptor Farm and Talks, a fellow of the
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Academy of Toxicological Sciences and star of the Critical Science podcast.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: What about it, Doctor Lyle?
• 23:27
  Speaker 8: You know, it's it's really it's really interesting, because yeah,
• 23:31
  Speaker 8: I agree about you know, this behavior is really strange.
• 23:35
  Speaker 8: Everything here is just really really strange.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Talking about the tx labs. Tell me about the talk labs. Yeah,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: what do you do with the medical exammers. I know
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: that answer, but as compared to what would have been
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: done at the hospital, you know.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: The difference is going to be.
• 23:49
  Speaker 8: Usually the hospital is looking for, you know, common drugs
• 23:52
  Speaker 8: of abuse, and they're looking for alcohol and things like that.
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: Basically, they want to know what's going.
• 23:57
  Speaker 8: To interfere with any drugs that they might give you
• 23:59
  Speaker 8: in the hospital. When you go to the medical examiner's office,
• 24:02
  Speaker 8: they're going to be running for, you know, again.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: All the drugs of abuse, but they're also going.
• 24:06
  Speaker 8: To be looking for other things that are typical poisons.
• 24:10
  Speaker 8: They're going to be looking for rare chemicals as well.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: They might do what we call.
• 24:14
  Speaker 8: An untargeted analysis. They might pay a lab to just say,
• 24:18
  Speaker 8: you know, just go out and try to find anything
• 24:20
  Speaker 8: that's in this blood that looks weird.
• 24:23
  Speaker 9: You know.
• 24:23
  Speaker 8: Sometimes they'll do that, and that's you know, it's pretty
• 24:26
  Speaker 8: common because they're trying to figure out why did this
• 24:28
  Speaker 8: person die. Is there something in their blood? You know,
• 24:31
  Speaker 8: did they eat something that wasn't right?
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: And so that's that's going to.
• 24:35
  Speaker 8: Be the biggest difference.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: So Charles Kelly joining me, very well known investigative reporter
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: and anchor kt TC News Charles how quickly after Betty
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: dies unexpectedly in the hospital, did the husband want a
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: sudden cremation?
• 24:54
  Speaker 7: They said it was it was almost immediately.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Uh huh. The last thing on my mind when I
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: was in the room when my dad passed away, was oh, dear,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: let me set up the funeral. What time should it be?
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: What day should it be? Who's going to write the
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: O bit? I can't even think about.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: That.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: I could think about was him and he wasn't going
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: to be with me anymore. Same thing with Keith. And
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: this guy's like got a head of steam for a cremation. Okay,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Dale Carson, I can't believe you break in on the toxicologist,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: but now I'm getting some circumstantial evidence and you suddenly
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: go quiet.
• 25:28
  Speaker 13: Well, I'm just you know, when you ask.
• 25:30
  Speaker 9: Somebody to cremate immediately, that's the first red flag.
• 25:34
  Speaker 11: The second is the obit that explains precisely what killed
• 25:39
  Speaker 11: the person in some kind of medical ease, and that's
• 25:44
  Speaker 11: extremely unusual.
• 25:45
  Speaker 9: So the red flag start piling up.
• 25:48
  Speaker 6: I'm going to jump in on Dale now too.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Is that it is Robin.
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: I'm literally staring at the old bit too. I'm with
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: Dale in it. This o bit really stuck out to me.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Please tell me what about it is really sticking out
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: to you. And I also want to talk to somebody
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: about cremation because that gets rid of all your evidence
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: if you don't have the right labs.
• 26:10
  Speaker 13: It's over in the obit, it says, following a sudden
• 26:15
  Speaker 13: onset of auto immune and infectious illness.
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: Yep, controlling the narrative.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Come on, you're so right, controlling the narrative.
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: And so it's interesting here Nancy with this obit, even
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: when because he wrote the o bit, it says it
• 26:32
  Speaker 6: in some of the documents and so down further, he
• 26:35
  Speaker 6: actually she is survived by her fur baby, Sir Crumpet,
• 26:39
  Speaker 6: her husband Connor, not like loving husband or anything like that,
• 26:43
  Speaker 6: and so many special friends and loved ones. So if
• 26:45
  Speaker 6: he wrote it, he actually omitted the mother who she
• 26:49
  Speaker 6: actually had a very close relationship with. So it's a
• 26:52
  Speaker 6: very stale obit.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: He put in the dog first, yeah, lifted the dog first.
• 26:57
  Speaker 12: And also all the condolences are a lot more heartfelt
• 27:00
  Speaker 12: than the actual little bit.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Who was this spaking? Is that? Robin Drake, Robin Drake,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: You're right, I hear Karen start jumping Karen Well Nancy.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: In addition to the fact that this OVID is so bizarre,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: none of her friends or family knew that she had
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: this rare disease that he decides he's going to list
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: this autoimmune disease, and so right away people were suspicious
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: because it didn't make any sense.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I'm sure the mom is like, what auto I mean, Alman,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: what are they even talking about? Charles Kelly, tell me
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: some more about her a bit place.
• 27:34
  Speaker 7: Yeah, So I actually spoke with some of her close
• 27:36
  Speaker 7: friends and previous colleagues and asked them if they thought
• 27:40
  Speaker 7: it was suspicious. You know, they said, she seems very
• 27:42
  Speaker 7: healthy from what they knew, but they just they didn't
• 27:45
  Speaker 7: really question it because I think they're in so much shock.
• 27:48
  Speaker 7: And they said that they didn't talk deep enough about
• 27:51
  Speaker 7: their health issues that they wouldn't have known if she
• 27:53
  Speaker 7: had this autoimmune disorder. But to them, and there are
• 27:56
  Speaker 7: other doctors too, saying she was a healthy person overall,
• 28:00
  Speaker 7: always living life to its fullest. So I also think
• 28:03
  Speaker 7: what's interesting is one of the best friend thoughs speaking
• 28:06
  Speaker 7: to told me that she has a very close sister
• 28:09
  Speaker 7: and she's not listed in the obituary at all as well.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Now I'm looking at the photo that was posted on
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: her online a bit. It's of her and a pair
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: of cutoffs. The ocean is behind her and she's looking
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: up over her shoulder lovingly at her husband. I'm rereading
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: the oh bit, and you're absolutely correct. Survived by her
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: fur baby, Sir Crumpet, the second of Mulberry, her husband Connor,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: and so many special friends and loved ones, not even
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: mentioning her actual family, her blood relatives. You know, I'm curious,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Charles Kelly, did he already have the oh bit written?
• 28:51
  Speaker 7: That is not confirmed. We are not sure if he
• 28:54
  Speaker 7: had that already prepared, but we know that in the
• 28:57
  Speaker 7: reports that he wrote it.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: I remember that was one of the worst. Mine was
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: in my wife sitting around the kitchen table with my
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: brother and sister trying to write my dad's a bit. Guys,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: what more do we not listen?
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Friends of Betty Bowman began reaching out to investigators. An
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: adult female friend of Betty Bowman told Detective Kendrick of
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: the Rochester Police Department that she had texted with Betty
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Bowman on August sixteenth, and that Bowman told her she
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: was sick and was at the hospital and things were
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: going downhill. The friend told the detective that Betty Bowman
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: was a healthy person. According to the criminal complain, the
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: friend also told the detective that Connor Bowman had attended
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: pharmacy school, worked in poison controling Kansas, and was currently
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: in medical school. Betty Bowman had told others that Connor
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Bowman was so much in debt that they kept separate
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: bank accounts. Connor Bowman told a female friend that he
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: was going to get five hundred thousand dollars in life
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: insurance as a result of Betty Bowman's death. Bowman also
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: told her that Betty Bowman was suffering from HLH.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Five hundred thousand dollars. Wait a minute, Charles Ky, investigative
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: reporter and anchor KTTC. Why was he in debt.
• 30:04
  Speaker 7: From his pharmacy school and from those here's a school
• 30:07
  Speaker 7: the money racked up, But it's interesting that you would
• 30:10
  Speaker 7: talk about the life insurance way that he's getting after
• 30:14
  Speaker 7: his wife has just passed away unexpectedly.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Five hundred thousand dollars and the only debt was from school.
• 30:21
  Speaker 7: I'm not sure from the report if there was more
• 30:24
  Speaker 7: to it than just his loans from school, or if
• 30:27
  Speaker 7: there was other reasons behind that.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: There's got to be more, and I'll tell you why.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I think there's more. I had so much debt. I
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: went to law school on student loans. It took me
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: ten years to pay him off. I wrote the check
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: twelve times a year for ten years, and I remember
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: the amount one hundred and seventy seven dollars and eleven cents.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: In fact, I didn't even know the loan and ended.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: And I sent one check too many and they sent
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: it back to me. So he could easily have done
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: this through loans. Did he have a double life? Why
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: did he have so much debt that he was bragging
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: about a five hundred thousand dollars life insurance policy? And
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: I'm curious when did he take that out? But there's more. Listen.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: The University of Kansas was able to locate Internet searches
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: conducted by Bowman on their device and network. Kendrick was
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: told that Connor Bowman was researching cal caisine cole cassine
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: is a drug used to treat gout. During his time
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: answering calls on the poison line, Bowman had not received
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: any calls regarding col caisine. Neither had any other employees
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: answering calls on the poison line, so.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: He actually manned the poison line while he was in
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: med school at Poison Control Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: doctor Lyle Burgin, toxicology expert. What is cole casine and
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: is that a normal job for someone in medical school
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: to work at poison Control?
• 32:13
  Speaker 8: So I answered the second question first, it's not. It's
• 32:16
  Speaker 8: not completely unusual. Different states have different rules about who
• 32:21
  Speaker 8: can work as a poison specialist.
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: Typically you have to be someone.
• 32:26
  Speaker 8: Who's licensed, so he may have been a pharmacy tech.
• 32:30
  Speaker 8: That's actually a pretty common thing for people who are
• 32:33
  Speaker 8: aspiring to go.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: To medical schools.
• 32:35
  Speaker 8: They become pharmacy techs or they become e mts.
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: And then if they have that kind of background, they can.
• 32:41
  Speaker 8: Sometimes work as a poison specialist. But to your your
• 32:45
  Speaker 8: first question, colt scene is an interesting chemical. It's a
• 32:49
  Speaker 8: it's a plan drived drug. It's been around for a
• 32:54
  Speaker 8: long time. It's considered one of the more ancient drugs, and.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: It's been use to treat gout for a very long time.
• 33:03
  Speaker 8: What's interesting about culture sines, though, is how it works,
• 33:07
  Speaker 8: it actually gets into your cells. In our cells, we
• 33:10
  Speaker 8: have like thingums as rails, like train rails, So.
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: We have these little railways, and one of them is
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: called tubulin, and.
• 33:18
  Speaker 8: Tubulin moves proteins around from one side of the cell
• 33:21
  Speaker 8: to the other. But it also helps cells move. So
• 33:24
  Speaker 8: immune cells actually crawl through your body. It's kind of neat,
• 33:29
  Speaker 8: and once they get into an organ, they're just crawling around. Well,
• 33:31
  Speaker 8: if you if you take culture sine, that railway stops,
• 33:36
  Speaker 8: and so now there's no way for proteins to move
• 33:39
  Speaker 8: across the cell. But the cell itself also can't move.
• 33:42
  Speaker 8: And so it also for cell division. Tissues like our intestines,
• 33:48
  Speaker 8: our mouth, you know, the the mucous lining of our mouth,
• 33:51
  Speaker 8: our nose and stuff like that. Those those mucus linings
• 33:54
  Speaker 8: are constantly being replenished. But if you take culture sine,
• 33:59
  Speaker 8: it's stop cell divisions. So your cell stop dividing, and.
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: Then you don't replenish these things.
• 34:05
  Speaker 8: And so that's actually what gives you like the GI distress,
• 34:08
  Speaker 8: the gas intestinal distress, stuff like that.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Interesting that you said it was an ancient drug. It's
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: spin around forever. I wonder if that is part of
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: the labs, the standard labs that are run at the
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: medical examiners and the hospital. Are they or are they not?
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: Dot Jlyle It's it's not entirely standard to look.
• 34:27
  Speaker 9: For culture seine.
• 34:29
  Speaker 8: You would you would probably have to have some suspicion,
• 34:33
  Speaker 8: like you know, somebody's coming in for food poisoning and
• 34:36
  Speaker 8: then they die. You know you're going to be saying, well, okay,
• 34:39
  Speaker 8: what drugs are going to cause you to have some
• 34:41
  Speaker 8: kind of GI distress. It's not a really large list.
• 34:45
  Speaker 8: You're anti cancer, drugs and culture seine.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Someone may know the hospital, neither hospital nor may is
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: going to look for culture seine in their standard lab work. Okay,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: but then there's more. Listen.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Some of Connor Bowman's Internet searches seemed really out of place.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Police found Internet searches about the drug cul cauisine and
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: determining what a lethal dose would be by entering his
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: wife's weight. The fact that Bowman talked to death investigators
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: about the toxicology test being done on his wife seemed
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: out of place as well. The drug he researched, caul caussine,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: was listed on the autopsy report as the cause of death.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: The toxic effects of caul cassine.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, Charles Kelly, do I understand this correctly? Her husband,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Connor Bowman research cultuisine and how much as it related
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: to her body weight?
• 35:42
  Speaker 7: Yes, he even was converting her body weight to kilogram
• 35:47
  Speaker 7: and multiplying that in order to measure out the dose
• 35:53
  Speaker 7: sit rate in milligrams per kilogram for cultussine.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, right there, Carson? What more do I need to
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: take this to a grand jury? Just tell me? Do
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: I need anything else?
• 36:06
  Speaker 9: You need a coele?
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Okay? What you mean? I've got a dead body?
• 36:14
  Speaker 9: There you go.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: I've got a dead body. She's dead. How do you
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: think she's not dead? She's dead. We've been talking about it.
• 36:20
  Speaker 9: I was just saying, you do have that?
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Okay. My question to you was what else do I need?
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Do I need anything else?
• 36:27
  Speaker 9: You need a confession?
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Don't need a confession? Good gravy man? Where did you
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: go to law school? Tell Carson, I've prosecuted in many
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: cases without a confession. I don't expect the defendant just
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: lay down and let me drive over him. Am I
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: giving me a confession? Man? I need to school you.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Who's jumping in?
• 36:45
  Speaker 13: Is that?
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Karen Stark yes, it.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: Is, because the concession is if you look at his
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: Internet searches, there's in some ways that's him speaking.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: How can some smart people do such stupid things like
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: leave a trail a mile wide? Well, okay, just that,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: but I can tell you the day David Eugene, Yes
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: that's his middle name. Lynch looks ut VPN a private browser?
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, fur is gonna fly listen.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Connor Bowman also accessed a search for the corrected question
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: from VPN to VPN. VPNs are secure methods of web
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: browsing and can be used by those who are trying
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: to hide their online activity from law enforcement. Bowman was
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: also searching sodium nitrate. Sodium nitrate can be used to
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: limit oxygen transport through the body. There was then a
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Google shop page for various vendors selling sodium nitrate.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, a Google shop page Charles Kelly for sodium nitrate.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 37:47
  Speaker 9: Yes?
• 37:48
  Speaker 7: That is exactly what a stated in the criminal complaint.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Doctor Lyell Bragoon. What is sodium nitrate?
• 37:53
  Speaker 8: Sodium nitrate is a chemical. It's commonly found in ferglicers. Actually,
• 37:58
  Speaker 8: and it's extremely water.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: What do you mean? It's extremely water soluble and mean
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: like you could put it in a big fat slurpee.
• 38:05
  Speaker 9: Yep, you could.
• 38:06
  Speaker 8: You could put in a big flat fat slurpy. You
• 38:08
  Speaker 8: could put in the you know, whatever it is that
• 38:11
  Speaker 8: you want to drink it, It'll go in really easily.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. The day that I catch David
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Lynch looking up sodium nitrate is to day I call
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: a divorce lawyer. Okay, just the cherry on top. Listen.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: The medical examiner determined the cause of death of thirty
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: two year old Betty Bowman to be toxic effects of
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: col cauisine and the manner of death homicide. Law enforcement
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: executed another search warrant on Connor Bowman's residence. Officers located
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: a receipt for a bank deposit of four hundred and
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: You know, Robin Drink joining me behavior expert, former FBI
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Special Agent in Chief of FBI Counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: I have found, and I don't have the right psychological
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: terms for it, or psychiatric terms, that people that kill
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: for money for a pecuniary gain are a whole different animal.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: There's just a whole different psychopathy in planning a murder.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: For money.
• 39:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and he's fitting the pattern of people that poison
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: people for money for gain.
• 39:22
  Speaker 12: He's got a sense of an adequacy, most likely spoiled,
• 39:25
  Speaker 12: self centered.
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: It's a rare form of murder, one of the rarest,
• 39:29
  Speaker 5: But it fits a pattern.
• 39:31
  Speaker 6: When we're talking about patterns of behavior like we have been.
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: It fits a pattern from his background, from his pharmacy side,
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: from working.
• 39:39
  Speaker 11: At the Mayo clinic.
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: And now we see a pattern behavior of internet searches.
• 39:43
  Speaker 5: And when you combine that altogether with trying to control
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: a narrative, trying to dispose of a body before they
• 39:48
  Speaker 5: can be toxicology, it's all fitting what we're observing.
• 39:52
  Speaker 6: Man, it's a sad, tragic thing.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Charles Kelly KTTC. Is it true? I learned this according
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: to friends, that divorce was imminent. Why were they getting
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: a divorce? Do we know?
• 40:04
  Speaker 7: All we know is that they were having marital issues,
• 40:08
  Speaker 7: and we're talking about divorce, calling fidelity and a deterring relationship.
• 40:12
  Speaker 7: That was from a call that was given to the
• 40:15
  Speaker 7: Medical Examiner's office from a female that's identified in the
• 40:19
  Speaker 7: police reports.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: So are there claims of infidelity? Is that what you
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: just said?
• 40:23
  Speaker 7: Yes, that's what The female who called the Medical Examiner's
• 40:27
  Speaker 7: office said.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Who allegedly was cheating or were they both? That is unknown.
• 40:31
  Speaker 11: Well, it's pretty clear that it was her with a
• 40:35
  Speaker 11: guy that was texting back and forth with her during
• 40:38
  Speaker 11: the composed divorce.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm in chart because that guy's texting me all
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: the time, particularly Wilson, our managing editor at Crime Online.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Should we tell his wife? Let's don't, just because Del
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Carson twenty twenty three, Just because you're texting with a
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: male colleague does not mean you're in an affair.
• 40:58
  Speaker 9: I don't think it was a colleague, and it was little.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: More than Jackie is wildly waving a note at me.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Connor was cheating. It was him. How do we know
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: Connor was cheating? You said, Connor is cheating the friend
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: the friends say, you know what, Dale Carson, I am
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: taking you to school, young man. I am taking you
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: to school. So where does the case stand right now?
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Let me post that to our friend at KTTC, Charles Kelly.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: What's happening right now?
• 41:26
  Speaker 7: Right now? The Oldsaid County attorney that I spoke with,
• 41:30
  Speaker 7: they are currently charging him with second degree murder with intent,
• 41:37
  Speaker 7: he said, in order for them to charge for first
• 41:40
  Speaker 7: degree premeditated, they would have to go to a grand jury.
• 41:45
  Speaker 7: If they decide that within a fourteen day period.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Boohoo. What's the problem with going to a grand jury?
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: It takes about five minutes. This needs to be a
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: death penalty case. Well, I mean, seriously, the man plans
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: out a very painful death for his wife while he's
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: allegedly having an affair, and that she rise in pain,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: has dead necrotic tissue in her colon, has to have
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: part of her colon removed, otherwise completely healthy, while he's
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: looking up doubt medication online and buying sodium nitrate. If
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: this is not a death penalty case, what is? Who
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: made that decision? Charles? Who made the decision? Is this
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: going to be a DP or not?
• 42:33
  Speaker 7: We are not sure at the moment because of the
• 42:35
  Speaker 7: attorney's office will decide if they're going to go first three.
• 42:39
  Speaker 7: But they're just making sure if they do that, they
• 42:41
  Speaker 7: have all their ducks and rows so they can prove
• 42:43
  Speaker 7: that it was premeditated.
• 42:44
  Speaker 9: Pretty clearly premeditated.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, who's this stage.
• 42:50
  Speaker 9: There?
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're right, you've got all the internet searches. Gee,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: how do I kill my wife with culture, chine or
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: whatever it is, and then rights crap. Oh bit to boot,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we wait as justice and false. Goodbye friend,