Latest / The Income Show / Bitcoiners Aren't Ready for What's Coming | The Income Show | Ep. 19

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Bitcoiners Aren't Ready for What's Coming | The Income Show | Ep. 19 · The Income Show

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It was neither gold, neither AI.
0:01
It was the depressed volatility of Bitcoin.
0:04
That's what got the liquidity out of Bitcoin.
0:06
Not AI, not gold, just the fact that Bitcoin became boring.
0:10
The ETFs are the real diamond hands,
0:12
and the Bitcoin's been sucked out of the retailers and the Bitcoiners
0:15
and anyone else who was LARPing about, you know, what it means to hold this asset.
0:20
And the best bit about it was all you had to do was make Bitcoin boring for five years.
0:24
At some point, these products that you guys have
0:27
are going to be blended up into some kind of basket that's going to allow banks to offer
0:33
higher yield savings accounts. My bloodline is going to end up with your Bitcoin because my
0:37
bloodline will keep buying Bitcoin and your bloodline will keep selling Bitcoin.
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Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Income Show. This week I have on British HODL.
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He spent years investing in real estate and gold and equities.
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He went all in on Bitcoin in 2020 and has spent years since getting as many people as possible to one whole Bitcoin.
1:05
British Hottle, welcome to the show.
1:07
Thank you, my friend. Thanks for having me.
1:09
And we're certainly in interesting times right now, so good time to have a chat.
1:15
Absolutely. There's a lot for us to cover today.
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This will be a great episode.
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Maybe I want to start off with your high-level background
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and just kind of how you broadly think about investing.
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Maybe rewind back to 2008.
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Where were you? What were you doing?
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How are you thinking about markets?
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And how did 2008-2009 make your perspective on markets evolve?
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Well, I was just basically starting my career in real estate at that time.
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And I had no idea how markets work.
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I was just selling real estate, structuring deals, understanding how to make a deal work.
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At that time, we were taking advantage of like there was a way to instantly refinance a properties.
2:02
If you could buy it at a discount, you buy it in cash.
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And then a day later, refinance it at 85% of the market value.
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And suddenly you get all your money back out, right?
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So there was like some, there was an interesting way to buy property with basically no money.
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And so that's what, and the only reason that was possible was because of the leverage in the system that we ultimately found out what was going on in 2008.
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So, you know, I had no idea. 2008 was my very, very first recession.
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What I, the dots that I connected, again, you know, sometimes you go through things and you go like, why the fuck am I going through this?
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And then it only works backwards that you can realize like why you went through something.
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And so I realized many years later, probably in 2020, why I went through 2008, 12 years later.
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And it was to understand that the only game is liquidity.
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Everything else is bullshit, right?
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Because really what you would think is that, well, if there was real demand for real estate,
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then surely the demand would have continued despite what happened to the credit markets.
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But really, the demand for real estate was being generated by the demand for the credit that was attached to the real estate, not to do with the real estate, right?
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So real estate had just been this thing that credit can be sunk into.
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And so understanding that, you know, helped me a lot going into 2020 because it was like, oh, well, the world's not going to burn.
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We went through 2008.
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The world didn't burn.
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So therefore, they're just going to print the shit out of the car, out of the money.
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and so you should probably buy the scarcest thing there.
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And I was in equities at the time as well.
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I was in gold and silver at the time.
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And then I kind of understood my misunderstanding on Bitcoin,
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which I was looking at it more as a security rather than a commodity.
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And so when that clicked for me, it was like, oh, shit,
4:03
I've completely messed this up.
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And I remember it clicked for me.
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I was walking around a park during a worldwide flu season that we had.
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And, you know, between realizing, waking up and realizing in that instance,
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to walking home, I'd probably bought 10 Bitcoin at the time just on my phone.
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So, you know, that was my first like, oh, shit moment.
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And then you have that instant panic that everyone talks about,
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like everyone's going to figure this out in the next 30 minutes
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now that I've figured it out.
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And then, of course, you realize it takes people a long time to figure it out.
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So that's my kind of journey.
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And then, you know, in that year, I went from having a significant gold allocation to a zero gold allocation from between March and November.
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And since then, haven't bought any real estate.
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I bought some equities, like Bitcoin adjacent equities, and very recently made a non-Bitcoin adjacent equity investment.
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But, you know, it's really all been focusing on aligning around Bitcoin.
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Yeah, I mean, something we talk about a lot at Strive is the idea of Bitcoin being the hurdle rate.
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I'm curious from your perspective, what does that mean to you?
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Yeah, Bitcoin is the hurdle rate.
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Bitcoin, you know, I think philosophically when I look at my portfolio, I look at it in terms of three buckets.
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I look at a savings bucket, a growth bucket, and an income bucket, right?
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And, you know, I think the more money you have, the smaller your income bucket gets.
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And, you know, for me, you know, when I look at a hurdle rate, that's against my savings.
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So the portion that's in my savings has to beat the hurdle rate.
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And thus far in human history, the hurdle rate has been, you know, the depreciation of the US dollar, which is roughly 11% a year.
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So that was your hurdle rate, except now you have actual finality of scarcity.
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So your hurdle rate is different.
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And if your hurdle rate is Bitcoin's CAGR, well, now anything that goes into the investment, the growth part of your portfolio has to beat that.
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And it has to beat it on a risk adjusted basis.
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A lot of people that trade a lot don't understand this term risk adjusted.
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Right. Just because something is, let's say Bitcoin is 30 percent and something else can get you 35 percent.
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That doesn't mean it's the extra 5 percent is worth it.
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You've got to adjust it for the risk that you're taking.
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So yeah, my portfolio is very simple.
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That's how I think about it.
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It's savings, which is the hurdle rate on Bitcoin
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because it's absolute finality of scarcity.
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Then it's growth.
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So it's basically, it has to be able to generate more than Bitcoin,
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but also a magnitude more than Bitcoin
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because it's got to be worth the risk of just not just holding the Bitcoin
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and then income.
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Quick pause.
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If that's something you want more of, the best way to support us is simple.
7:02
Like this video and subscribe to the channel.
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That's it. Now back to the conversation.
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Earlier, you made an interesting point of like when you first discovered Bitcoin, you thought once you figured it out, you thought everyone was soon going to figure it out themselves very quickly.
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And of course, that doesn't necessarily happen.
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And what do you think is the biggest hurdle for the average American or just person around the world to buying a significant portion of their portfolio in Bitcoin?
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They don't have the need. That's it. I've taken six years now. I've educated on this literally for six years, made content for six years, spoken to people for six years.
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they don't have the need because when i started talking about and you'll remember when i started
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talking about focusing on the people with the money you know they were getting it it would take
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it would take a 30 minute conversation with someone with money and it would take a lifetime
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with someone without any money right and so the reason for that is that because the people with
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the money have the need they have the problem they have the melting ice cube whereas the people
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without the money don't have the melting ice cube. So you're now trying to explain to them philosophy,
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right? And I'm not a philosophy teacher. So that was really, that's what I've realized is the issue.
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The problem is, is that most people are broke. They don't have a disposable income. They don't
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have savings. And by the way, I also think it might be irresponsible if you've only got, let's say
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you living on the line and you only got five 500 to a thousand dollars a month of disposable income Do you really want to put that into a 50 volt asset i don know right like that a that a question that why i kind of wonder when i hear
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a lot of a lot of the bitcoiners talking about you know we're gonna everyone's gonna put their
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paycheck into bitcoin like okay i i get the philosophy of it i don't get the practicality
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of it because someone who's doing a 500 a month disposable income i don't think they have the
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bandwidth to deal with a random 30% drawdown.
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Right?
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Yeah, I completely agree with that.
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In that manner, like, would you say volatility itself is one of the biggest hurdles for like
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Bitcoin adoption?
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Maybe.
9:23
Yeah.
9:24
I mean, yes, I think it's yes, I think that's definitely part of it.
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But again, I think it's just they just don't have the need.
9:31
Right.
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They're worried about making the next payment.
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And again, I'm answering like the average person, right?
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Because someone with, you know, a $10 million portfolio or $4 million in savings fully understands
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the problem.
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I never need to ever spend more than 30 minutes on someone with money.
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It's only the peasants that you really have to try and get philosophical with them.
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And then at that point, you lose them anyway.
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let's shift towards macro and liquidity is kind of want to get your your thoughts on that i mean
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right now like the u.s 10 years at five percent maybe higher this morning the fed may hike soon
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what's going on maybe broadly at first from a macro perspective and how does that influence
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your perspective on bitcoin well it's it's pretty simple right everyone's saying we don't want these
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we don't want this US debt. So they're selling it down. And therefore, the rates are going up.
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It's going to cost more to get that money, basically, right?
10:37
That sounds like a problem. And all of the doom and gloom boomers, I always find that they always
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come out at these times like, oh, 5% is a problem. It's like, well, it's like 5% was always in the
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closet waiting to attack you. But nobody was mentioning that until we got to 5%. And the
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crazy thing will be, as it normalizes at 5%, they'll all go away. And then when it gets to 6%,
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again, the 6% boogeyman is going to come out the closet, right? It's like, oh, it's 6%.
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My thinking is this. I don't think that the rates normalizing is too much of a problem if
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the GDP is high enough, which is why the administration's constantly saying,
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the US administration is constantly saying, we can grow out of this issue.
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Because the goal, the long-term goal of the US dollar is to reduce the debt to GDP ratio.
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And if you can get the debt to GDP ratio without taking rates to zero, right?
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Like, that's actually quite healthy, right?
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Now, what's going to happen in that scenario if the rates continue to stay where they're at?
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The one industry that's going to get, you know, kicked in the nuts is going to be real estate.
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right and that's the president's industry and that's the president's friends industry and
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also a lot of voters right they have real estate which is why that what they've done it's really
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interesting what they've done to keep property prices high despite the rates staying this high
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is basically frozen building it's a property is not being built and if property is not being built
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and also the rates are high yeah okay you might not be buying but the prices are also going to
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they high right so that's all that's california's game at least um and it's really everyone's game
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to figure until we figure out what's going on here so you know i don't think i don't think we
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should be complaining about normal interest rates right like what do you want them to do you want
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it to go down to zero you know like that's actually it's kind of like a zero is a sign of a terminal
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patient, right? Like you go to zero when the world stops. You don't go to zero when everything's
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great. And again, you know, you've got U.S. GDP has accelerated up to 8%, right? Annualized.
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That's good. That's great, right? For a modern first world country. It's absolutely fantastic.
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And if you've got rates sitting at 5%, over time, you're going to reduce that debt to GDP ratio.
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And that's good.
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You know, I can understand why the president wants it down another percent, right?
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Because now you're basically running it hot.
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But do I think it's an issue at these rates?
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No.
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And the real reason it's not an issue is because you have the money printer.
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You just print, right?
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So what's a five-year rate?
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I don't know.
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Like, everyone just becomes experts on these things, right?
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Like, suddenly everyone's a yen carry trade expert.
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And suddenly everyone's a 10-year yield expert.
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Like, it's just the latest doom and gloom boomer narrative that kind of, you know, catches fire and everyone goes crazy over it.
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But the reality is, is you own the money printer.
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So who cares what the rates are?
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You just print it.
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Right.
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And again, you know, you might say, yeah, but that's not good for the normal person.
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Well, if you think I'm talking about the benefit of the normal person, you are already evidencing the lack of mental, you know, equipment that's needed to understand the conversations going on here.
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If you think anyone cares about the normal person at this point, we're talking about the survival of the United States dollar here.
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The normal person is irrelevant, right?
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And so that's what I think.
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I think it's, you know, yeah, is it going to cause disruption if it continues going on?
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Absolutely, right?
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But we want growth.
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They're getting growth.
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I think that's why they're like, okay, 5% is kind of like the limit.
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And that's why they started, you know, the Treasury announced a lot of the buybacks and stuff like that.
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And we'll see.
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The market's absolutely going to test them and we're going to see who's going to win.
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Is it going to be the market or is it going to be Big Daddy percent?
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Yeah, it's fair.
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Another like macro metric that people have been talking about this cycle a lot, I think, is the ISM PMI.
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What's your take on that?
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Like, is this helpful at projecting where Bitcoin could go?
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Is it like another metric that's kind of been overfit looking at past Bitcoin data and it just happened to align well with the bull markets and bear markets?
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How are you thinking about that?
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Yeah, I don't know.
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I think it certainly makes sense.
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I think Raoul Pal's done a lot of good work on that, you know, to give him credit.
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I think it makes sense because the PMI cycle indicates massive confidence.
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and when your confidence is at a level where it's too high,
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you're going to see peak speculation.
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And it just so happens that every single time the PMI number has topped out,
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the Bitcoin cycle is also topped out, aka peak speculation, right?
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If we want to look at it and go,
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Bitcoin is a perfect arbiter of liquidity,
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massive liquidity, massive speculation,
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well, then the PMI cycle is a pretty good kind of thing to look at.
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Now, I have said that while that makes sense,
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And we've been in a four-year contraction cycle.
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If we get to a PMI number blowing past 60, staying there for a while, maybe even this time, maybe it doesn't just do a sharp.
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And Bitcoin doesn't really move, doesn't make a new all-time high, doesn't do this, that.
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Well, now we have to reevaluate Bitcoin at that point, right?
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So I think that it's absolutely useful.
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And it's a really great addition for the way to see like, okay, what is Bitcoin?
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Because a lot of Bitcoiners don't realize that Bitcoin in the outside world is still a risk on asset, right?
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And so if you can find these tools and indicators to go, okay, like if it is a risk on asset, you know, how is it responding in a high risk environment?
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Well, maybe that's the way to kind of look at it.
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Clearly, it's not a risk off asset.
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To me, it's not a risk off asset at all.
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right um and so yeah i look at that pmi number and i go okay this is super interesting i i i like
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you know i like what it's saying i like what it tells me i like what it tells me about the state
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of the world and the economy and then it's really good at going okay well if that's the truth about
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the world and the economy well then this is the truth about bitcoin and do those two things align so that how i look at it i agree that makes sense to me How about the you know prominent AI trade that we seen done quite well obviously probably since 2022 to now basically
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Do you think that that trade has sucked a lot of the wind or liquidity out of Bitcoin?
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Or do you think that the Bitcoin drawdown had to do with something else?
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I think there's been a lot of psyops this Bitcoin cycle, right?
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It's been a lot.
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It's the biggest, the best one.
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I want to shake the hand of the man who decided that the way we're going to
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sell Bitcoin out of people is we're going to pump gold, right?
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Because a lot of Bitcoiners came, like myself, right?
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I came to Bitcoin through gold.
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Gold was my first entry into like the debasement, right?
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And the one thing you do is you keep Bitcoin kind of like static
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and you pump the asset that they sold to get into this new asset
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and you make them question everything.
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Because normal people don't look at percentage returns.
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Normal people just look at dollar values.
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And so I know many people on X that sold Bitcoin for gold and silver.
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Like I know people that are prominent Bitcoiners that sold a portion of their Bitcoin stacks for silver at 120.
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They'll never say this, right?
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But, you know, I love ridiculing them whenever we meet up.
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So it's fantastic for me that they've done that.
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I think this is a zero-sum game.
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I think this is all an absolute zero-sum game here, right?
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And that means that, you know, the faster we get Bitcoin out of the hands
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of the people who don't respect what it is, the better it is for Bitcoin.
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Michael Saylor respects Bitcoin.
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Larry Fink respects Bitcoin for what it is.
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when I hear a Bitcoiner talking about the four-year cycle
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or gold and silver running up,
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so I'm going to, you don't respect it.
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You don't respect that it is absolute finality of scarcity.
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So therefore, we should take it from you
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and put it into the hands of someone who does respect it.
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I think that's quite healthy for a month.
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I agree.
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So I guess on that note, when you brought up gold there,
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Do you think that gold was more critical in sucking liquidity kind of out of Bitcoin and just attention out of Bitcoin rather than the AI trade?
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Or do you see both actually sucked attention and liquidity out of Bitcoin?
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I was making videos about this in 2024.
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It was neither gold, neither AI.
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It was the depressed volatility of Bitcoin.
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That's what got the liquidity out of Bitcoin.
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not ai not gold just the fact that bitcoin became boring
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because people are idiots they want to be they want to have activity bias
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right they can't sit on something so yeah it wasn't either it could have been anything
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anything that was just moving more than bitcoin would have got the liquidity out of bitcoin
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That's my fundamental belief.
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We can make the excuse that it was AI.
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We can make the excuse it was gold.
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We can make the excuse last time it was the shit coins.
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We can make any excuse you want.
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You depress the volatility of an asset and people lose their fucking minds.
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Because they have these hopes and have these dreams.
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And they go, I'm going to buy this thing.
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It's going to go straight vertical.
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Because look how much I'm watching all these YouTube videos.
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I'm reading all these X posts.
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I'm reading all this shit.
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And I'm the genius.
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So as soon as I hit buy, this thing's going to go straight to the moon.
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And then, of course, it sits going sideways for five years, right?
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While the ETFs come out, while you pivot two million coins from the hands of retail into the hands of institutions, the forever holders, right?
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The institute, it's now proven.
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When I was saying this, you get a lot of hate for it, which is like the ETFs are the actual diamond hands.
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The ETF holders are the ones that are actually diamond hands.
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And now it's proven.
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This is proven now.
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I bid $50 billion into the fund.
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After a 50% drawdown on an asset, they got like a 2% to 3% redemption rate.
22:03
They've never seen anything like that.
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Right?
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So the ETFs are the real diamond hands.
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And the Bitcoin's been sucked out of the retailers and the Bitcoiners and anyone else who was LARPing about, you know, what it means to hold this asset.
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And the best bit about it was all you had to do was make Bitcoin boring for five years.
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With that, where do you see the volatility of Bitcoin going forward?
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Like, do you see a period where the volatility could return and attention returns?
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Or do you see like this continuing trend of lower volatility over time just persisting and maybe even going lower?
22:38
You know, my instinct tells me that the volatility is going to compress.
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but there's something i don't know what it is my instinct says the volatility is going to
22:50
compress but there's something that makes me go yeah but we've had five years of depressed
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volatility four years of depressed volatility is there a possibility that we mean revert to the
23:02
upside i don't know we'll find out but my instinct as an investor tells me that we are gonna we're
23:09
going to compress volatility. But then you look at it and you go, well, sure, we could compress it.
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But from where are we compressing it? Because if the last four or five years have been
23:19
artificially compressed to a real low, well, then we need to readjust and mean revert for that.
23:27
Yeah, it's interesting to think about it because it's like you still compare Bitcoin to gold. I
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mean, that's like $1.5 million per Bitcoin. If Bitcoin actually can become digital capital or,
23:38
you know a global store value or global money i mean it's like vastly mispriced compared to what
23:47
it could be and so maybe that's how the volatility could potentially return i guess or just wall
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street just deciding like it did for tesla in 2019 that everyone needs a two percent allocation or
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that'll bring back some volatility real quick yeah good point people always think that this
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is impossible just go look at the chart of tesla 2019 this is this happened in a company
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so why can't it happen for the one asset that everyone could buy at the exact same time worldwide
24:17
i know um you're going to the bitcoin treasuries conference in a couple weeks i'll be there
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number of people will be there um are you excited about that i i believe you're on a panel what are
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you going to be talking about there yeah so did you hear about the in-kind conversion change that
24:37
for blackrock i bet yeah so that was a phone call or actually a message that i sent 6 a.m on a sunday
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morning and i said this was after the cold card hack and everything was going crazy and i thought
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you know what could i do to help in this scenario and one of the ways that i thought about helping
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because I'm not a tech guy.
25:00
I'm not a tech guy.
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And I'm, you know, sitting here going,
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looking at people going, you need to buy Bitcoin.
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And at the same time, I'm on X Spaces
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listening to actual tech guys
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saying there's so many vulnerabilities
25:16
with all these wallets.
25:17
Like at this point, it might be safer
25:19
to push your Bitcoin to an exchange.
25:21
It's crazy.
25:23
So when I heard that, I was like,
25:24
well, let me send a message
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and see if this in-kind conversion thing can be solved.
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And so I sent that message,
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and it's truly remarkable why these guys are who they are, right?
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Five minutes later on a Sunday, 6 a.m. New York time,
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I get a message back.
25:44
And the message is, you know,
25:47
this is something we should look into.
25:49
Let me start an email thread.
25:51
So an email thread gets started.
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Seven people on this email thread, right?
25:55
But obviously the email coming from Robert Midchnick at BlackRock So everyone awake all of a sudden no matter what time zone they in And the email thread activates right
26:08
This is like 6 a.m. New York time to 8 a.m. New York time.
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This whole conversation is happening.
26:13
So I get introduced to the transacting party for IBIT, one of them, that does these transactions.
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And bear in mind, you know, the minimum for IBIT at this time has already come down,
26:26
but it's come down from 50 million a year ago to 25 million, right?
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And so anyway, I get on the phone later that day
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with the CEO of the transacting subsidiary,
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who's on vacation in London.
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He's from Austin.
26:45
He's on vacation in London.
26:46
I get on the phone with him, and he says,
26:48
I think we can take it down to a bare minimum,
26:52
which will be around $2 million.
26:54
dollars and so that's all being done over so that was on sunday we spend the rest of the week
27:01
confirming everything compliance everyone's involved figuring out make sure we can do this
27:07
before there's an announcement friday comes and i say okay i'm gonna announce i'm gonna do a video
27:12
on this on monday so robert decides to go on bloomberg on monday morning and say it's a million
27:22
dollars so he does the most just the most gangster thing which is actually take it down to where i
27:29
wanted to take it down to i wanted it at a million dollars right and this is bear in mind it was 50
27:36
million dollars a year ago right so massive compression on this and one of the things i love
27:42
about robert is that he's absolutely focused on getting this down to the absolute bare minimum
27:49
right there's certain limitations you'll be aware of that with the work that you guys do at Strive
27:55
like there's certain limitations on cost and everything else that needs to be factored into
27:59
that but he's working on that but the fact that he managed to do that was just truly remarkable
28:03
so the question that I have now about Bitcoin it was important at one point to sit here and go
28:12
you know the thing that's important about Bitcoin is what do the cypherpunks think about Bitcoin
28:17
right like what's their thought process about bitcoin because then i can understand whether
28:23
this is something i want to hold on well now i think it's quite important to understand
28:28
blackrock's vision for bitcoin i think that's super important so i'm lucky in the sense that
28:35
you know uh when pete and tim and ed reached out to me about the about the conference i was
28:41
on the other side literally still on the other side of the world and um and they said hey
28:46
we kind of want you to interview Robert Michnick about everything that's going on.
28:54
And I said, that would be awesome. I would love to do that. He's just going to say no,
28:59
because I'm not corporate media trained, right? I'm not a corporate media person.
29:04
So I said, if you want, I can do some back channeling and see if the waves have changed,
29:10
let's say. And within five minutes, I messaged him within five minutes, said, yeah,
29:15
sounds like fun let's do this which was again first time i think that anyone uh from there has
29:23
been interviewed by a non-corporate media trained person right like they've done pomp but pomp is on
29:28
cnbc every other week right so it's just fascinating and then you know i compiled a list of questions
29:34
questions you know uh got approved by compliance very quickly these are not easy questions also
29:41
Like I want to talk about self-custody.
29:44
I want to talk about like Ibit's role, BlackRock's role, right?
29:48
Because what I really want to understand is BlackRock's vision for Bitcoin.
29:54
Because these are the guys that are allocating the capital.
29:57
They brought $50 billion into one asset since the launch of this ETF, right?
30:03
Their clients see a 50% drawdown.
30:05
You get a net 2% or 3% redemption rate.
30:08
Why?
30:08
What are you educating these people to understand that we are all missing?
30:13
Because clearly the Bitcoiners are dumping Bitcoin at this point, right?
30:16
The Bitcoiners are getting the Bitcoin stolen from our hands, while the people that BlackRock are educating don't care about a 50% drawdown.
30:27
So what is that vision that they are operating from?
30:32
And so my discussion is titled BlackRock's vision for Bitcoin.
30:39
And it's going to be a one-on-one discussion.
30:42
And I hope to give people an understanding of how does BlackRock see this evolving, right?
30:51
And how do they, you know, want to communicate that to the rest of the world?
30:56
And how should you understand what BlackRock wants, how BlackRock sees Bitcoin?
31:01
And I think that conference is going to be important because, look, you can go to conferences and I believe that now being in the room is going to be really valuable.
31:11
Right. Because the other thing I got confirmed is the CEO of the transacting party that is doing the in-kind conversions is also going to be in town.
31:20
He's going to be there because I said it's probably a good idea for you to come because there's going to be a lot of people that, you know, might want to meet you.
31:28
Right. So he's going to be there and you're going to be able to meet him. And so you might not need him now. Right. But in three years, you know how relationships work. Right. In three years, he might be a useful person to have have met in the past. Right. So he's going to be there. He's flying in from Texas. So this is I think this is going to be quite interesting. And again, I want to know what capital allocators think. I want to know what you guys at Strive are thinking.
31:55
I want to know which market you guys see evolving and shrinking.
32:03
Because that gives me a framework from which to judge ASST.
32:08
I think that's really important.
32:10
And that does not come through on podcasts.
32:13
I don't care what anyone says.
32:15
It comes through in the room.
32:17
Like when I flew to Hong Kong and met Jeff again,
32:21
we had this conversation and it was like there was something that I had missed
32:29
watching his interviews that I got listening to him live in front of me, right?
32:35
And so I think there's going to be value to these conferences now,
32:39
especially the ones that involve the actual buyers of the Bitcoin.
32:43
And that is BlackRock, the ETFs, all the treasury companies,
32:48
and really the people that are doing the buying.
32:50
So my panel at the conference, sorry for a long answer, is BlackRock's vision for Bitcoin.
32:56
And I think despite my panel, I think everyone there is going to add something quite unique for the audience.
33:03
Just on, you know, what are the real capital allocators thinking about Bitcoin and how should an investor in Bitcoin also be thinking about it?
33:12
I love it.
33:13
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think BlackRock lowering the in-kind contributions amount, huge for Bitcoin.
33:20
Massive.
33:21
Yeah.
33:22
I mean, I think that's great.
33:22
You know what happened?
33:23
So we put out two videos.
33:25
We can directly attribute this.
33:29
Direct attribution, right?
33:31
I put out two videos.
33:33
$130 million worth of potential Bitcoin moving.
33:37
Now, I don't know what went through, what didn't, right?
33:40
But $130 million at least moved on two videos, right?
33:48
So this is important.
33:50
Also, we got the redemption thing sorted because that's what took a week delay.
33:53
I wanted to get the redemption thing sorted because I knew I know how Bitcoiners think.
33:57
So I was like, oh, they're going to look at this and go BlackRock's just trying to take your Bitcoin.
34:01
Well, no, because you could also redeem it.
34:04
So now BlackRock's just a custody solution.
34:07
Think about that.
34:09
BlackRock, $14 trillion AUM asset manager with the most highly paid, highly skilled nerds on the planet
34:18
to make sure that your money stays safe
34:20
is your custody solution for 20 bips a year.
34:25
That's massive.
34:27
That's massive.
34:28
And the million dollars is just a start.
34:30
I know Robert, and he's going to focus on getting that down
34:32
to as low as possible.
34:33
It's a huge thing.
34:35
By the way, that was just BlackRock.
34:38
You know, two weeks later, Bitwise reduced theirs
34:40
from $100 million down to $3 million.
34:42
in. So the ripple effects are going through the industry, which is good.
34:48
Yeah, I love that. I do want to ask you also about the cold card vulnerability that, you know,
34:53
you brought up as well. One, I guess, what did you make of that? And then two, like you mentioned,
35:00
you know, BlackRock brought in $50 billion or so of capital into Bitcoin over just the last few
35:05
years. The cold card vulnerability, which existed for like five years, resulted in like $100 million
35:11
being lost, which in comparison to the $50 billion that has been brought in,
35:16
you know, is very small.
35:17
Like, what do you make of kind of what's happened there?
35:23
Make of it.
35:24
I make, here's what I'll say.
35:27
It was very personal to me.
35:30
Not because I lost any money, but because when I was becoming British Huddle,
35:35
it started on an app called Clubhouse, right, in 2021.
35:39
And in 2021, we had NVK live in the room on Clubhouse insulting everyone.
35:49
We had Bitcoin maxis that you would know.
35:53
Telling everyone that cold card was the best product for securing your Bitcoin.
35:57
Everyone needs a cold card.
35:58
It's the best thing in the world.
36:00
We had Bitcoin podcasters that we all know talking about how great cold card is.
36:05
And, you know, the most heartbreaking thing was, luckily, I never said anything about cold card because I was like, I don't fucking know.
36:14
I'm not a tech guy.
36:15
I don't know how any of this works.
36:18
And so the only thing that I've ever recommended was a multi-sig, right?
36:23
So I said I've been open about the fact that I'm a customer of Casa, right?
36:26
and when the ETFs came out I changed and I said look my recommendation if that means anything to
36:34
anyone is I set a probability for the United States financial system collapsing in the next
36:40
decade I put that percentage amount in a multi-sig solution and the rest of it I'm going to
36:46
split it between IBIT and FBTC to separate the custody right of those products so you know what
36:53
did i make a cold card it was very personal for me because i have friends that lost money
36:57
that got their funds and their children's inheritance stolen from them as a result of that
37:03
it was also personal for me because i sat there in the rooms and watched people get
37:09
pitched this by the bitcoiners so suddenly i went from trust in the bitcoiners
37:15
to zero trust in anything, right?
37:21
And I just realized like,
37:23
well, if you have to trust
37:24
what the Bitcoiners are telling you,
37:26
well, then why wouldn't you trust
37:27
someone like BlackRock
37:28
with $14 trillion of AUM
37:30
and a reputation behind them?
37:32
If everything's trust anyway,
37:34
because clearly, you know,
37:36
the Bitcoiner motto is verified,
37:38
don't trust,
37:39
but no one's fucking verifying anything.
37:42
So it's all trust.
37:44
and if it's all trust i want to trust the 14 trillion dollar aum with direct access to the
37:49
money printer right so anyway again i didn't lose any money it was personal for me but the craziest
37:56
thing about it was as i started making content about it my views started collapsing price of
38:04
bitcoin started rallying at that time right so what i realized was nobody cares nobody cares
38:12
$130 million of someone's inheritance, some unborn child's inheritance has just been stolen and nobody gives a shit.
38:24
That's the reality of the situation.
38:27
Yeah, it's quite crazy.
38:30
It's been an interesting year for Bitcoin to say the least.
38:35
Earlier, you brought up the idea that, you know, back in 2008, people wanted not necessarily the real estate, but the mortgages being securitized.
38:44
Like that was kind of a huge asset class and obviously still is today.
38:50
Bitcoin is kind of like through the ETFs and through digital credit and through all sorts of other instruments is kind of becoming securitized.
38:59
How does that change your perspective of Bitcoin?
39:01
And what do you make of this overall securitization of Bitcoin?
39:05
I think it's fantastic because once you securitize something, you can plug it into the rails of the current system.
39:12
And only once you securitize it can you plug it into the rails of the current system and start tapping into that $900 trillion, right?
39:20
And so, you know, what do I think about it?
39:23
I think it's absolutely fantastic.
39:25
You know, the funniest part is, you know who orchestrated mortgage-backed securities?
39:30
You probably do.
39:32
Most people might not.
39:33
It was Larry Fink, right?
39:35
He was one of the, let's say, founding fathers of mortgage-backed securities in the day.
39:41
And so you look at that and you go, well, you've just found an asset that doesn't have
39:46
the social consequences of real estate.
39:48
There's no one's going to jump off a bridge, go homeless.
39:50
No one's going to lose a home, et cetera, et cetera.
39:52
And you solve one of your biggest problems, which is you need to sink all of this printed debt into an asset that is fixed and permanent and doesn't have any social consequences, right?
40:07
Now you can let real estate kind of rebalance and revalue itself.
40:11
You can let real estate stagnate, let the wages go up, which makes real estate more affordable over time.
40:18
You can't do the China thing.
40:19
China basically round-tripped 20 years of real estate profits.
40:25
Can't do that because you're going to get voted out, right?
40:28
There's no politician on earth that's going to back that.
40:30
What you can do is just divert where the liquidity goes.
40:35
So you stagnate the real estate prices while keeping them high, but just fixed.
40:40
You let the wages go up over time, which adjusts the affordability
40:45
without you having to lower the value of the property market.
40:49
And at the same time, you have this new asset,
40:52
perfectly finite, perfectly scarce,
40:54
perfectly held by a small number of people
40:57
with zero social consequences and zero social awareness.
41:02
And now you can print as much money as you want
41:05
and shove it into this asset.
41:07
And it the perfect pristine capital You don have the costs associated with real estate and managing a real estate lending book You don have any of that And any of this can be traded anywhere in the world at the exact same time You don need to put a team on the ground in Singapore to value a
41:22
you know, a billion dollar property project in Singapore, right? Because Bitcoin is the same
41:27
in Singapore, in Dubai, in London, in New York. It's the exact same asset. So am I bullish? Yeah,
41:33
Absolutely, I'm bullish.
41:34
And that's what makes me go, okay, we're about to enter the, you know.
41:38
There is a reason why Larry Fink sits on stage and is comfortable saying,
41:43
nobody should be surprised if Bitcoin is $700,000 a coin at Davos.
41:50
There's a reason.
41:53
Yeah, it's quite exciting that he can go on stage and say things like that,
41:58
yet Bitcoin's trading, you know, in the 70,000s today.
42:02
That's quite incredible.
42:03
Um, maybe like focusing a little bit on digital credit itself.
42:09
What do you make of that?
42:10
Do you think having a low volatility, high relative yield instrument is something that
42:16
a lot of the world and a lot of the world's capital actually wants?
42:20
Do you think this is how a lot of capital will come into Bitcoin or what do you make
42:23
of that?
42:24
Well, clearly, I mean, I'm not a customer for it yet.
42:27
Right.
42:28
But clearly, absolutely, because there's $300 trillion in it.
42:32
Right.
42:32
So clearly it's a product that's interesting to people and for their capital.
42:39
And look, you know, a lot of people don't realize, like a lot of Bitcoiners want people to get into this.
42:44
Most people just want to have a good life.
42:49
They just want to have a good life.
42:51
And so that good life, if they can have that good life for 10% a year, 11% a year, 12% a year, 13% a year, whatever it is,
42:59
then that's the option they're going to take, right?
43:03
Now, the crazy part about it is that they're not even factoring in,
43:06
you know, the devaluation of their base capital, right?
43:10
Because that's being inflated away.
43:11
So they're going to take that 10% to 13%, spend it,
43:15
and not worry about the principal capital.
43:19
So, but who cares?
43:21
That's the market.
43:22
That's the $300 trillion fixed income market.
43:26
So, you know, is there a demand?
43:28
Khalil, I mean, you tell me, you guys are doing pretty well, right?
43:31
Like, I mean, you guys are at par now on SATA, and that's fantastic.
43:37
I think STRC will be hopefully back at par sometime in the next week or so.
43:41
And that's amazing.
43:43
So I think that, you know, yeah, is there a market for it?
43:48
Absolutely.
43:48
Am I the customer for it?
43:50
No.
43:51
But this is the other thing.
43:52
There's different pools of capital for different people, right?
43:55
And I think that's super important.
43:57
could I be a customer for it in the future? Yeah. You know, our friend Gary Cardone,
44:02
you know, he put seven, Gary Cardone's got a couple years on me. Okay. Let's see. I don't want to,
44:07
I don't want to, I don't want to make him mad, but he's got just a couple years on, on me. Right.
44:11
So he put, you know, $7 million into STRC and has collected roughly $850,000 of dividends.
44:20
right? So at some point, maybe I'm going to put $5 million into STRC and just go, okay, cool,
44:28
life expenses taken care of forever. Maybe, but I'm glad that the option's there, and there's
44:36
clearly $300 trillion that likes that option. And the other market that is quite interesting is
44:45
you know just treasury cash management right at some point these products that you guys have
44:52
are going to be blended up into some kind of basket that's gonna allow banks to offer high
44:59
yield savings accounts right now the question is when does that come through what is the market
45:05
match maturity that needs to happen for that to happen etc etc but once that happens and it goes
45:09
mainstream, you're now talking about, like, why wouldn't El Salvador do this, right?
45:15
I said this to Max Kaiser.
45:18
I said, why wouldn't El Salvador offer, maybe this is something you guys need to take over
45:23
there, right?
45:24
Why wouldn't El Salvador offer a high yield 8% savings account for US dollars, right?
45:34
Give it to you guys.
45:35
What's your, what's SATA's rate right now?
45:38
13 or 12?
45:38
13.
45:39
13. Right. So they make a 5% rip. Right. They'll get a trillion US dollars of deposits flying in from everywhere in South America.
45:48
You don't need to touch any American capital, just all of the capital in South America.
45:54
If anyone wants a safe haven to put that capital, going to flood into Salvadorian banks.
46:00
you make a 5% rip off of that, right?
46:06
You triple your GDP just from a savings account offering.
46:13
And you basically offer a US dollar dominated
46:16
high yield savings account backed by, you know, SATA.
46:21
We're at massive market.
46:23
But the question is like, forget that
46:25
because that could be considered really high risk, right?
46:28
Well, what if we go 80% two-year treasuries, 20% sat up, right?
46:34
Now you're talking about increasing banking profits by almost 100% by just adding 20% of this Bitcoin fixed income product to the basket.
46:44
So when does that kick in?
46:46
I don't know, right?
46:47
We don't know when all these things are going to kick in.
46:49
The good news is that you guys have smart people working on feeding that to the market.
46:54
mstr has smart people working on feeding that to the market and to countries and to everything else
47:00
and everyone else is watching so when that happens everyone else will compete and that
47:04
will make the market bigger so you know i'm super excited for these products even though
47:09
i can separate myself not being a customer for that product yet to the fact that there is 300
47:15
trillion dollars out there that's in this market already and so maybe we should go get some of it
47:21
So we can buy Bitcoin with it.
47:24
Agreed.
47:25
What did Max say about that idea?
47:27
Was he receptive to it or how did he think about it?
47:30
Yeah, he said it was a great idea.
47:32
So we'll see.
47:32
We'll see if that conversation develops or not.
47:35
But maybe this is something for Matt to reach out about as well You know I happy to put them in a group chat conversation I mean i sure he knows max anyway but if needed i happy to put them into a group chat conversation but i think
47:49
this is a fan i think that is really the future you know i got the idea from was michael saylor
47:53
because i was this is the problem joe like most people just don't pay attention when smart people
48:00
are talking i like to do that i've learned to do that right i talk a lot but when someone smarter
48:06
and me or richer than me is talking i shut the fuck up real quick so michael saylor said this
48:12
after visiting abu dhabi and he expressed a lit a twinge of frustration and my the way that this
48:22
thing works is like i notice things that don't fit the pattern and when i heard that whole
48:30
conversation super positive super fantastic and a twinge of fucking frustration i was like why is
48:38
he frustrated doesn't make sense the fuck does what does that mean why is he annoyed right now
48:45
so i went and looked into it and and it turns out that this idea that i'm telling you is exactly what
48:49
he pitched to abu dhabi right and uh apparently it wasn't it wasn't received well for abu dhabi
48:58
it might not make sense, but for El Salvador, it does,
49:02
at least from my vantage point.
49:04
Why wouldn't you offer a high yield?
49:06
You're a Bitcoin country.
49:08
Why wouldn't you offer a high yield savings account
49:10
backed by 50% two-year treasuries, 50% SATA?
49:18
Or STRC, or a blend of those two to spread the risk,
49:22
which is, again, what you guys do too, right?
49:24
You guys have, I think, 2% in STRC, right?
49:30
So it's like, we can create a blend of this.
49:33
We can have a blend.
49:36
We can mix all of these things together.
49:38
But, you know, for the first country that ever offers a high-yield US dollar savings account in a niche location like South America is going to triple their GDP from offering a savings account.
49:51
It could be Panama.
49:52
It could be El Salvador.
49:54
It could be anyone.
49:54
but it makes sense for it to be El Salvador to me.
49:56
So if, you know, if you want to revisit that,
50:01
then, you know, maybe I'll just hit me up
50:04
and I'll connect Matt and Max
50:06
if they're not already connected on that.
50:09
Yeah, sounds good.
50:10
I mean, I agree.
50:11
It seems like an absolute no-brainer for a country
50:15
like El Salvador to do that.
50:17
And, you know, I thought Sailor's presentation
50:18
in Abu Dhabi was great on that topic.
50:21
this concept that he is kind of referred to as like digital money kind of gets like an allergic
50:29
reaction from a subset of of people in the bitcoin community why do you think that is
50:34
the bitcoiners the bitcoin yeah yeah why do you why do you think that they have that allergic
50:41
reaction to this idea of a dollar savings account effectively built on bitcoin yeah look i i think
50:48
that a lot of people have this dream vision of Bitcoin.
50:50
They don't seem to understand
50:51
that there's multiple ways for capital
50:53
to get into Bitcoin, right?
50:55
But they want everyone to buy this philosophy
50:57
of absolute hard money.
50:58
They don't realize that in the peak United States,
51:01
when everyone was talking about
51:02
the US dollar being hard money,
51:04
it was only 40% backed by gold, right?
51:07
Mises himself talks about, you know,
51:09
doesn't talk about 100% backing
51:12
of a currency by gold, right?
51:14
It's only a fraction.
51:15
the fraction keeps the check yeah the checks and balances so you know i think that they have this
51:22
ideal of how the world should work you know they're scared of something everything scares
51:27
these people at all times i mean like i don't know how they walk around the street
51:30
but um i just think they don't get it there's just there's a lot of people that are just mentally
51:37
unequipped for this next phase you know and how i know that is i was on a panel when i first moved
51:42
to dubai i was invited to a bitcoin event i was on a panel with a very prominent bitcoin
51:45
written many books on it.
51:49
And he's standing in front of me
51:51
and he compared Alex Mashinsky in Celsius
51:55
to Larry Fink in BlackRock.
51:59
And I was like, oh, we're just, we are,
52:01
we're just, this is, I don't even know what to say now.
52:04
I'm lost for words.
52:06
I'm never lost for words
52:07
because I've just realized that the Bitcoiners
52:09
are just mentally unequipped
52:11
for this next phase of Bitcoin, right?
52:14
and so that's what i think is going on so why why do they have an allergic reaction because they're
52:20
meant to in their reality this what you're saying is the enemy it's the devil so you know they they'll
52:27
figure it out at some point or they won't the craziest thing is this like i say to them like
52:32
well how are you ever going to live if your goal is to put everything into bitcoin how you're going
52:37
to live like let's say you go into retirement well i'll just sell my sell some bitcoin so it's
52:41
I thought this was the best asset on earth.
52:46
Why would you want to sell it?
52:48
Why wouldn't you want to borrow against it?
52:51
It's like, oh, no, but that's whatever.
52:53
So it's like, well, this doesn't work
52:55
because my bloodline is going to end up with your Bitcoin
52:58
because my bloodline will keep buying Bitcoin
53:00
and your bloodline will keep selling Bitcoin.
53:02
So I really want to take this with my content.
53:05
And, you know, the direction I want to go in now
53:08
is like educating people on how to create a bulletproof
53:13
kind of permanent structure around Bitcoin, right?
53:18
And what that looks like, that combining TradFi,
53:21
combining, you know, asset protection,
53:25
combining all of these things, combining lending.
53:28
Because I've been able to borrow, you know,
53:30
at central bank rates against my positions
53:32
for the last two years.
53:33
DBS Bank, Singapore, Julius Barr in Switzerland,
53:36
You know, even JP Morgan in the US will do it. Central bank rates. So when Bitcoiners are going
53:41
around borrowing shit at 9% to 12% and I'm paying 5%, central bank plus one, let's say,
53:48
four and a half, 5%, I'm ahead. And that should piss everybody off. Right? So, and by the way,
53:56
what you guys are doing and what STRC is doing is not helping because what you guys are doing
54:00
is re-educating the market on the true cost of capital, right?
54:05
So when you go to someone and you say,
54:07
we'll give you 13%,
54:08
well now that private money lender has to go and this is gonna take time but the curve is moving quite aggressively in your favor So that private money lender has to go and this is going to take time but the curve is moving quite aggressively in your favor So that private money lender is going to go well I was just giving unchained capital a facility of 8 on 100 million as they draw down on it
54:26
But I can just put that 100 million into SATA and get 13%.
54:29
So now the real cost of capital has just moved from 8% for unchained capital to 13%.
54:34
So now they're going to go back to their investors or sorry, to their customers and say, well, we need 15% to make that 2% rip again.
54:43
So that's what's going on here.
54:45
The real cost of capital is being reeducated.
54:48
And so if you're a Bitcoiner, you need to get smart on how you're borrowing against your Bitcoin if that's the life you want to live.
54:54
And there's different ways to do that, right?
54:56
I can get central bank rates against my Ibit.
54:59
I can't get it against spot Bitcoin.
55:01
Super important to realize that.
55:03
So there are reasons for holding these TradFi assets.
55:07
And it goes back to the in-kind thing.
55:09
That was step one.
55:11
In-kind was step one.
55:12
My next step is to try and figure out if we can do lending on IBIT for smaller account holders.
55:18
Because obviously with Julius Barr and DBS, it's over $10 million accounts.
55:22
JP Morgan, it's over $30 million, right?
55:24
So can we reduce that minimum requirement for lending against securities?
55:31
This is not just margin.
55:32
This is securities lending, right?
55:35
So, and I've now explained everything I'm saying to you in the full thing to Ledin, CEO of Ledin, Maurizio, and the CEO of Salt Lending, Sean, because they understand that they're being squeezed because the cost of capital is going up, right?
55:53
So, they've got to look at it and go, okay, what pivot does our business need to make?
55:57
Well, you go get a securities lending license, and now you can start, you know, hopefully lending if you've got a bank behind you at central bank rates.
56:05
So we'll see how this develops.
56:07
But that's my mission.
56:08
My mission is to figure out, like, okay, how can Bitcoin be used as pristine capital?
56:13
And if it is pristine capital, why are you charging me 12% to lend against it?
56:18
Because clearly it's not pristine capital in the lending markets that you're tapping into.
56:24
So we need to go tap into the lending markets that really are effective.
56:27
Because like I said, I've been able to do this for two years now, right?
56:31
The average person hasn't.
56:33
And I think it's important that the average person realize that.
56:35
But that's the second step.
56:37
The third step that I'll work on is permanent structures,
56:40
which is how do you put all of this into like a Rothschild style structure
56:46
with rules in place so your bloodline can't fuck this up, right?
56:51
And so what kind of rules are needed?
56:54
Does it come down to the 200-rig moving average?
56:56
You borrow 25% LTV to generate liquidity.
57:00
What's needed?
57:01
You take that 25%, you put it into, let's say you take 20,
57:04
let's say you borrow against your Bitcoin.
57:07
You take a loan against your Bitcoin at central bank rate.
57:11
Let's just assume that's 5%.
57:13
Well, I can now go put that into SATA at 13%.
57:18
I'm now making a 7% rip on a 25% LTV at the 200-week moving average, right?
57:26
Now, Bitcoin goes up in the next cycle.
57:29
When do we refi?
57:31
You put all of these rules into a trust.
57:33
Now, your trust has basically infinite liquidity forever because the rules are in place.
57:39
No one needs to think.
57:41
Children don't need to worry about it.
57:43
Grandchildren don't need to worry about it.
57:44
You need one smart person in your bloodline, and that's the person watching this fucking podcast, right?
57:49
So thinking about this stuff is super important.
57:52
And I think this is the direction that the smart, the Bitcoin investors that are intelligent will be going down.
57:59
And everyone else is going to be going, give me my fucking cold card, and I'm going to sell my Bitcoin when I want to buy a burger.
58:06
I love it. I think that's a great spot to end it on.
58:09
I'll look forward to New York, your panel in a couple of weeks.
58:15
But British, this has been great.
58:16
Any final additional closing thoughts?
58:21
The goal right now is to hold on to as much Bitcoin as possible
58:27
because the enemy is coming from every direction
58:30
to make sure that you let go of your Bitcoin.
58:33
Whether that is price going down,
58:36
whether that is volatility going down,
58:38
whatever that is, it's happening. It's happening right fucking now. And so you got to sit there and
58:44
go, am I going to hold on to this? Because the reality is you are only going to keep the Bitcoin
58:50
that you deserve. It's not about buying Bitcoin at the price you deserve. You're only going to
58:54
keep the Bitcoin you deserve. So you need to get smart at this, what's going on, which is why I
59:01
like the rooms that are filled with capital allocators, not the philosophy nerds. The time
59:06
for philosophy is over. We're now in a time for absolute dominance over who's going to hold on to
59:12
their Bitcoin. And that's what that's those are the conferences I like going to and why I'm doing
59:17
the why I'm flying across the world for the Bitcoin treasuries one. And I'm not going to a
59:22
bunch of other ones. Right. Because I want to know who's coming from my Bitcoin. And you know who's
59:28
coming from my Bitcoin? Strive is coming from my Bitcoin. MSTR is coming from my Bitcoin. BlackRock
59:33
coming for my Bitcoin. Fidelity is coming for my Bitcoin. Anyone who's actually buying Bitcoin
59:38
is coming for my Bitcoin. And so I want to be in those rooms and I want to understand how do I
59:43
defend against this? And that's why you got to be in the club. And how do you get in the club?
59:47
You have to show up and be face to face with people. So that's why I'm doing it. And again,
59:52
I think this discussion is going to be super important. And I think hearing from you guys,
59:56
what you're going to do, hearing from our friend Grant Cardone, what he's going to do with the
59:59
intersection of Bitcoin and real estate, right? I think that's going to be fascinating. There's a
1:00:03
bunch of fascinating conversations are going to happen here. So I'm really looking forward to it.
1:00:07
And I don't get paid to promote the fucking thing or to show up or anything, right? Because I think
1:00:12
this is the right thing to do in the right conversations to have for the moment. So I'm
1:00:16
looking forward to seeing you there. Thanks for having me on here. You're doing awesome. I'm very
1:00:20
proud of you and your podcast and everything else that's going on. Congratulations on moving to
1:00:24
Strive. I know we haven't spoken since that move. And it's really awesome to see, you know,
1:00:29
your growth in this space.
1:00:32
Appreciate that, Brittle.
1:00:33
Yeah, it's been a wild ride
1:00:35
and I've enjoyed watching your videos over the years
1:00:37
and meeting you in person before too.
1:00:39
So this was an incredible conversation
1:00:41
and look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks.