Latest / Did I Write That?! / “White Men, I Need You”: About the Book
Transcript
- Adina Samuels: You're listening to Did I Write That? Featuring conversations with authors published under Antresha Press. They share the behind the scenes of the actual writing of the book, the things they wish they'd known, and what you need to know about the book that will soon be in your hands. I'm Adina Samuels, founder of Entre Sha Press, and I'm thrilled to introduce you to our newest author. Let's get to it. Seema, thanks so much for sitting down with me today. It's great to have you here. Thank you. It's good to be here. Absolutely. So before we get started talking about your book, can you introduce yourself to our listeners? My name is Seema and I'm the president and founder of Bertie Consulting, which is a ⁓ boutique cell consulting firm focused on diversity, equity, and inclusive leadership. And what else are you now? ⁓ yeah, you're right. I'm forgetting about that very important part. ⁓ and I'm also now an author. It still sounds really crazy to say that, but yeah. I have just written my first book and it's called White Men I Need You. And so yeah, I'm now I can now add author to that list of of titles. I know it sounds weird in the beginning, but I mean it's definitely what you are. You've poured your heart and soul into this book. You know, it it's rare to read a business book that reads so much like talking to somebody. And I find that that's what your book does. Like After having chatted with you multiple times, it's just like I'm talking to you when I read the book, which is it's a pleasure to read. That's great. That's really great feedback because that was sort of the goal. It's just the idea was to write sort of a book that has personal stories, but that can also be used in the business setting. And it kind of building off my training style, which is just, you know, talking about things I've been through and then you know, learning and teaching and and sort of welding, melding that all together. And so I'm super happy if that's the impression people get that they get to know me a little better when they're ⁓ reading the book. So tell us a little more about the book. I mean, White Men I Need You is a pretty bold title. So let's start there. What what is this book about? It's really funny because when I came up, I don't remember when I came up with the title, but it was really like one of those just boom, I'm like, ⁓ my God, that's the title. And actually that was the topic too. I I couldn't, I didn't know what I wanted to write about yet. And all of a sudden I was like, ⁓ my gosh. It's like about white men and needing them. And and it it really builds on a lot of things I observe in ⁓ in training sessions as I've been training a lot of like executive teams or boards or senior managers. They just tend to often be a lot of white men in the room. And I find that the trainings are super interesting and they go well because most of the time these men in the room are very well intentioned. They want to do better, but they just don't know what to do. And or they're scared. They're scared to speak up. They're scared to overstep boundaries. They're being very careful. So instead of taking action, they're a little bit fearful. And so there's is all these sentiments that I noticed. And I realized in my training sessions I addressed those. And we would have great conversations and then it would, you know, help move the needle and change what happened. And so I realized you know, if we want to change things, it's really when you get the people in power to move and to take action. And now the reality is it's right now. a lot of white men in those roles. And so that's sort of where the idea of the book came and the title of the book. And I thought, you know, might as well just, you know, put what I'm actually feeling, which is white men, I need you. So let's just go with that and and see how it lands. Talk a little more about the fear that you mentioned. I think in the D E and I space there is this fear of saying the wrong thing or hurting someone's feelings unintentionally or accidentally creating this uncomfortable experience. I find your book cuts through all of that and the stories that you share are so sometimes painful to read. Like it's the stuff that people experience and think but don't want to say out loud. So first tell me a little bit about the fear that you've seen in rooms that's keeping people quiet. Yeah, I mean, whenever you're walking into a room and you're doing anything DEI training to leaders, you know that there's gonna be people in that group that are feeling a little defensive or ⁓ maybe they've been told before to kind of step aside or they've screwed up and they've already kind of been punished for it. ⁓ so you kind of feel like some of those sentiments in the room before you start. And so I always take the first few minutes of a training just to debunk a little bit about why we're there and that there's no shame, no blame. And we're all learning and we all have different perspectives. So just to sort of make people feel more comfortable. And then, you know, I try to share my own mistakes because, you know, it's easy to sit there and and be, you know, telling others, well, you're in a position of privilege and you should know this and you should do this, etc. But we all make mistakes. You know, I don't know the reality of every single person. And, you know, there's areas where I have stronger expertise than other areas when it comes to diversity. And so I try to kind of share my own. mistakes or moments where I screwed up so people realize it's okay, it's going to happen. It's like the b most important part is giving people permission. And so it's normal that they have that fear because sometimes they're in very public roles. Sometimes it's been a kind of public mishap that's happened or, you know, someone's told them in private. Or they've seen something that happened someone else and like, ⁓ I'm so worried. I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to step on someone's toes or put my foot in my mouth. So maybe I should just say nothing at all. And so they're kind of frozen. They're a little bit frozen, you know, they just don't know what to do. And I think one of the important things is to name it. You know, just to name that fear really helps people then, you know, react to that and then realize, okay, okay, it's normal that I feel this way. It's happened before to other people. It's like acknowledging the fear and letting them know you can make mistakes. I think that's an important piece of of the book as well. So speaking about acknowledging, your book is based on this a framework. Can you talk a little bit about the phase that you need these white men to help you. Yes. Yeah. So the Forays is it's funny. It's a framework that a a colleague of mine of of mine and and I ⁓ kind of worked out because we were thinking of like what are the s different steps, you know, to becoming a really good ally. And the first step is always awareness. And I think that's why the book itself has a huge section on awareness because that's one of the pieces where it takes a while to sort of become aware and there's a lot of work and self reflection that has to be done there. And so Awareness is the first thing and we call it awaken, you know, you just really want to awaken to what's going on around you. And then the next one is really absorb, which is about learning, you know. So once you're kind of aware and kind of awake to the fact that, ⁓ there's a lot I don't know or my biases or I have privilege. The second A is absorb, which is all about learning and like absorbing like a sponge, whether it's having conversations with people, whether it's reading books, you know, podcasts, learning, absorbing information in so many different ways and really just with a sense of curiosity. Then the third A is about acknowledging. So, you know, you start to build up this understanding and then you acknowledge, wow, okay, now I see things I didn't see before. So, you know, I've kind of woken to it, I've absorbed it, and now I'm acknowledging, okay, you know, maybe there are things I can do better. Or I'm acknowledging the experience of somebody else and I'm seeing it differently. And then the last one, which is really important, is action with intent. So you really want people to start Taking all that and then acting on it, you know, really whether it means speaking up, whether it means intervening in a situation, whether it means advocating, really taking the action step and doing something concrete about it. That's where, you know, the the emphasis is on that. Once the other steps have happened, though. So, you know, it's it's not that they're not completely sequential. Like you can kind of go back and forth, but we want to avoid people is jumping into action too quickly. And that's what often happens, and leaders do that. They they see something, they're like, ⁓ I gotta act. On that right away without taking the time to really learn and build and understand, they go straight into action. And so that's why action is really the last step once those other pieces are in place. Yeah. And in coming up with these four A's, this speaks a little to the process of writing the book. I mean, what led you to realize, what led you to see these patterns over the 20 years of experience that you've had in the field, what led you to see these patterns and then put them down on paper in a way that hasn't been done before? I think it it was an iterative process because as I was doing when I started out in the training world, a lot of the trainings we were doing were unconscious-biased training and building awareness and what is DEI. And one of the benefits of sort of, you know, the way the landscape changed was all of a sudden everybody wanted, you know, sort of EDI training and It had to go beyond awareness, obviously. And so then the next steps were, okay, we've built up our awareness, what's next? And then it was like, okay, let's get more concrete. It you know, it was nice because we were able to start going deeper and not just surface level. And that's when sort of some content came on absorbing things and acknowledging and then action. And so as I was doing these different trainings, the model itself came from a a little leadership training where at some point we were just brainstorming with my colleague and like how do we frame this and sort of just built out the different pieces. I guess so so it's sort of progression over time. But that progression I think follows what we saw in the industry, whereas, you know, it started off as just kind of awareness training and everybody wants unconscious bias training, but that doesn't do anything by itself. And then, you know, building on that, okay, that's great. Now we know we don't know, but what do we actually do about it and how do we move forward with that? And so that's ⁓ sort of how those different pieces in the model was built. And in your ideal worlds, when you think about what this book could do, let's say it reaches the hands of every white men in power ⁓ across North America. What do you hope comes out of our readers reading this book? Yeah. I mean my dream is that, you know, it kind of starts a movement that like, you know, these leaders read this and and and really understand that they have the power. I think that's the the most important part is that, you know, they need to feel empowered to act. And I think a lot of times they feel that ⁓ you know, DEI is something that sits in HR and it's not Yeah, sure, I'm gonna put money into it. And yes, yes, it's important. But they don't realize how much they personally can change things if they really invest personally in it and take action. And so I'm hoping that this book is a wake-up call for a lot of leaders to realize that the change will happen with them personally. And so they really have to get involved in that and really, you know, embrace that and and take all the steps. And I hope that I think a lot of them are really well intentioned and they do want that. I think that. It's been so polarized, especially today. You know, there's a lot of polarization, a lot of blaming, and you know, people are even more fear fearful than before. So I'm hoping this book gives permission to just, okay, I need to be part of this and let me act on it. So, Seema, ⁓ like I said, I think the most outstanding element of your book is the storytelling that you do and the breaking of the ice that you do. You know, you you put us into some really awkward situations, some uncomfortable ones, and you talk us through the normality of it, the fact that, you know, you got there and so will we, and here's what you do next. I'm wondering if you can share one of those stories with us that particularly stands out to you. ⁓ my God. I think there's quite a few. I think that at least on my own end, some of the embarrassing ones ⁓ really have to do with me committing my own microaggressions. And I know in the book we talk about or I talk about this story where I'm meeting another DEI professional. And she's originally from India, and you know, I have like some subcontract or maybe some work. We're just kind of meeting, sort of, to discuss what the landscape looks like. And she's new to Montreal, and you know, French is really an important part of working in Montreal. And she, you know, shares that it's really tough. And she's been, you know, working on her French and she's getting a certificate and everything. And we're discussing all this. And, you know, I just go into my own story of, well, you know, the best way to To to learn French is just get a French boyfriend. You know, that's what I did. Ha ha. And like, you joking about all this stuff. And she kind of, you know, laughs about it. And we kinda continue onwards. And then later on at the end of the conversation, she shares that she's queer. And then I just realized, ⁓ my God, I've been sitting here assuming. And then actually, you know, it kind of made sense in some of the other stories that she told and and she said it. And I right away called myself out. I was just like, ⁓ my God, look at me. Here I am, like the DI professional with 20 years' experience. And I could have easily said partner instead of boyfriend. But I just, you know, spewed it all out there. And, you know, she laughed and I I said, Listen, it's definitely a a teachable moment for myself that I still make those mistakes sometimes. So that was one of them that was humbling. But I also try to take my own advice and realize I'm human and I'm gonna mess up. And when you when you mess up, you fess up. And and so that was one of the pieces for me that just constant reminder that I could be doing this work forever and at the end of a session somebody might say, ⁓ you said this or you did this and and they share with me and I had no idea. So it's learning all the time. But I think that's one of the examples for me was a little bit embarrassing because it was so easily avoidable. ⁓ and something that I should have known better. So that was one of them that I felt felt And your advice there, because I think we would all find ourselves in a similar situation at some point is to ⁓ recognize that, you know, you misspoke. And apologize and reframe. Is that kind of what we would recommend? If you've done something that's really had a horrible impact on someone or their career or whatnot, might take more than just like, you know, laugh it off. I'm sorry about that. But I think most of the time you just have to acknowledge it right away and apologize. And on the other end of that, it's happened before where someone says something to me and I'm like, you know, like I I'm like, okay. And then they realize it and right away they apologize and because they recognize it was a faux pas. Or like they made an assumption or and it's it's normal. Like your fast brain is working and we talk about how you know we make quick judgments. Those judgments still come up in our brain. Sometimes they also, you know, get repeated outwardly. But many times I'm thinking something that I know is biased and I haven't said it because I recognize it might be biased, but it's really hard to turn that bias off and sometimes it just spews out. So it's kind of giving people permission that, yeah, you're gonna mess up, but the best thing to do is just quickly acknowledge it. And move on. And I think people most people are receptive to that. And there's not really much more you can do than that, right? It's just to apologize and move on because mistakes are gonna happen. I wanna share another example if I can. Yes, go ahead. This one I love because it's so terrible. And you start by writing, I'm almost embarrassed to share this story. I know what story you're talking about. Can I share this one? Yeah. Yes. So you say, I grew up with some extremely negative messaging about Jewish people. From community members and Islamic teachers. When I was seven years old, I was enrolled in Sunday school and we gathered to learn the basics of Islam. My teacher was old and strict. What I didn't know at the time was that he was anti-Semitic and a teacher of hate. And he used every opportunity to poison us with his hatred for Jewish people. Okay, that's terrible. Yep. Gets worse. I still remember him teaching us that Jewish people. I'm saying this as a Jewish person. I know. I like I love it that you're like giving the story because I'm like, I'm like, okay, good. If Adina accepted the story, then I'm I accept this story because I think it's a really scary story to own up to, Sima. Like, I think it was really brave to write it. So let's finish the story, then we'll talk about it. But I still remember him teaching us that Jewish people are filthy, that they are cheap, and that we should not mix with them. As a young child, I didn't question him and I took what I said as fact. I will never forget the day. That I was in the grocery store with my mom. And while we were looking at more expensive produce, I blurted out something to the effect of Jews would never buy that because they're too cheap. My mom looked at me in utter horror. When I told her where I learned that, she immediately corrected me and took you out of the school. What a powerful story about like a misguided misconception that you were just taught. Yes. You thought was like totally normal. Painful, you know, for outside of the bubble that you were living in to know that, you know, this is being taught and experienced. But your mom did the absolute right thing by just nipping it in the bud, you know, and re-educating. And it's it's not even something that I would hold against you as a child, right? And I think that's the point, is our education systems, our frameworks, our biases, our stereotypes, all of this. We're not necessarily to blame for them, right? Sometimes it is just about awakening to the reality and absorbing the information and like you said, acknowledging it, right? So I commend you for sharing this story, which like makes me when I first read it, I was like, Where is this going? Right. Cringy. It is. And it's it's one of those stories that's so like it's a it's a scary like you said, it's a scary example because children learn and pick up on Everything. And I never came back from Sunday school and said, Hey mom, this is what we learned today. You know, none of us liked going to Sunday school. It was really boring. But like most kids, you know, you're on it's on a weekend and you're there and like most pig kids are unruly and whatnot. You know, we go and we come back. But these are just messages that are like you know infiltrating. And this teacher has a a ⁓ captive audience of just children. There's no adults in the room. So nobody even knows what he's telling us. So imagine how often that happens, or how when you're a kid, you're growing up and you're at the dinner table. And comments are are going. Maybe it's from grandparents. And maybe you're not even really paying attention, but you're sort of hearing or you're witnessing how others are treating others. And so kids are picking up those messages all the time. Now, this is an example of one that's very flagrant and racist and anti-Semitic, but there are many others. It could be subtle ones, you're just different ones that are sometimes kids are getting more subtle messages, but they're still getting ingrained. And so in that case, For me, at least in that case, it was obvious and I was able to, you know, it I just remember just saying it like I remember actually saying that almost proudly to show what I'd learned. I do remember the feeling of being like, ⁓ well, you know, Jewish people can't afford that or something. Like I remember thinking, like, ooh, like I'm going to now impress my mother with what I've learned, you know, by this way. And then sh yeah, she was completely astounded, you know. And it's funny because my I have a good friend who's Jewish and she has two sons. And I have two sons and they play together. And they're older now, but when they were younger, maybe 10 or something, you know, she told me, she goes, one of her sons was like, you know, I love playing with Seema's kids, but am I supposed to because they're Muslim? And then she was just like flabbergasted because she's like, I don't know where they picked this up, but for some reason they thought they can't be friends with Muslim kids, you know? So it's crazy where these messages and all that gets ingrained, and if no one corrects it. You grow up with those messages. And then as when you become an adult, it's much harder to then undo some of those learnings, right? And so a lot of what we have in terms of like stereotypes and biases are things we picked up when we were younger. And they're sometimes very subtle. We don't even realize they're there. And they're playing in the background all the time. And and you know, in the book we'll we'll talk about gender, for example, which is one where the roles are so it's so subconscious all the time that, you know, I even share in the book how I didn't realize that I'm probably biased when it comes to gender and getting feedback, you know, because somebody had said to me, you know, I notice I get when I get feedback from a male leader, it means more to me than when a female leader gives it to me. You know, she had not like realized that. And I thought, ⁓ my gosh, am I the same? Like when I get referrals or when a, you know, a male leader tells me that was a great conference. Like there's a part that's like, wow, like I'm feeling validated, you know, by a male versus a female. And so those are still things that I work on to undo, right? So we're often subconsciously working on all those. And and you know, so that example in the book is one more of the flagrant ones, but there are many others I think that are subtle and that we have to beware of as well. Absolutely. And just what I appreciate is that you're opening the conversation. Like I want everyone to have the chance to sit across from you at the table and share their mistakes so that they can be said out loud and that, you know, you can educate people on what to do now. Right. And I think so many of us hold these things that we think and feel inside without expressing them. And if you're able to give the opportunity for people to say, listen to this mistake I made, it creates this sense of, okay, well, we've made the mistakes. Where do we go from here? So I think that's the most valuable thing that your book does. Good. I'm glad. I'm glad that people come out of it feeling that They can be human, but like work on it. I think that's important, right? Because we're never gonna move the needle if we don't actually talk about these sticky subjects. And we gotta talk about it with the people that are, you know, most powerful. And it has to be done in a way that, ⁓ I mean, and not letting people off the hook, you know, I don't want people to think that, ⁓ well, anything is, you know, anyone can do anything and it doesn't matter. Of course, there are, you know, consequences, but people have to feel comfortable to have the conversation. I think that's been the issue. At least what I've seen in in in leaders is that there's so much blaming and polarization that it doesn't feel that they can have the conversation. You know, they'd rather just not have the conversation and save themselves from getting, you know, in trouble versus recognizing that, you know what, it's okay. Like it should be uncomfortable, but it shouldn't be so uncomfortable that people completely disassociate. And so You know, it's about look sort of finding that zone where okay, you're pushing people out of the comfort zone. I want them to be a little bit uncomfortable. I want to think about it, but not so much that they feel completely alienated. And they're not learning, nothing's changing. And that's probably one of the things when we look at sort of the DI evolution, some of this initiatives did start to alienate people in power and and that target group. And so then they just disengage completely. And so I'm trying to for my sophiles, I'm trying to correct that part of it. Beautiful. Well, Seema, if you wanna leave our potential readers and our listeners with any one thing ⁓ before we end today, ⁓ what would that be? I would say that's a good question. I gotta think about this. Well, I hope that this book appeals to everyone and that they buy it ⁓ and then they read it because it's it is the target is really people in power, but at the end of the day, it's also for anyone who b wants to be a better ally. And so ⁓ whether, you know, whether you are a woman, whether you're a woman of color like me or a white male, There are things in the book that can hopefully resonate with everybody and help us to learn more about groups that we're not part of, right? And so, you know, even as a woman of color, sure, I might know a little bit more about women like me and certain areas, but there's so many other areas I don't know a lot about. And I'm building up my advocacy and I might be in a position of power to help others that ⁓ you know, are marginalized. And so it's really a book about if you want to see equity, you know, what can you concretely? personally do and what's the journey to take to to help you take action. And so I hope that that's something that can resonate with everyone. And I think it will. Thank you so much, Seema, for sitting down to chat with me today. That wraps up another episode of Did I Write That? featuring the outstanding authors published under Antrasha Press. If you want to learn more, check out our website Antrashapress.com, follow me on LinkedIn, and let's make sure to get the stories that the world needs to hear. Out into the world.