Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Stolen Jesus | a conversation with author Jami Amerine

Transcript

Stolen Jesus | a conversation with author Jami Amerine · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:17
SPEAKER_00: Hi friends, welcome to the Simply Whole Hearted Podcast.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: We're so glad you joined us again today.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: And if you're new here, welcome.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Here at the Simply Whole Hearted Podcast, we are learning more ways to live unplugged, purposeful, and intentional no matter the season we're in.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: I hope you're enjoying our music that you're hearing in the background.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: It's written by Ben Pasley and Carla Adolf, who make up the dynamic duo called Enter the Worship Circle.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: They were on our podcast conversation last week called Heart of the Psalmist, and that was a fantastic and entertaining conversation.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: They also shared some of their wisdom and insight about creativity and also what it looked like to maybe quit something they really loved and then their journey to picking up again in a new season of life.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: So be sure and check out that pod podcast conversation after you listen to this one, and we think you'll be glad you did.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: And while I'm thinking of it, if you wouldn't mind just scrolling down a little bit if you're listening to this podcast on your phone, and you can easily now in the podcast app uh rate and um give a review of the podcast that you're listening to.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: So if you could just scroll on down and click that five-star rating, and then maybe type in your favorite podcast conversation, the ones that you've liked best, the themes, maybe you've really enjoyed parenting, or maybe um you've enjoyed just the general idea of living wholeheartedly.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, because we kind of cover a lot of different topics here and we're having a ton of fun doing it.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you've even picked up a book or bought a book after listening to a conversation, and we'd love to know what it is that you enjoyed reading or learning about after you heard about it from Ashley and I.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, it also helps other people who are looking for new things to listen to to feel welcome and to see what they might enjoy listening and what they could learn from when they hang out with us.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: Today's conversation is with Jamie Amoryen.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: She is a ton of fun, um, very authentic and vulnerable about her parenting journey, her foster care journey, and also adoption.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: And so this is one of the reasons why we're having her on the podcast at this month in particular is National Adoption Month.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: And we've been talking about what it looks like to support those who are maybe foster parents, adoptive parents, maybe communities and foster care organizations around you.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: There's all sorts of ways to really help the orphan in your city and at large.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: So we just hope that some of these conversations would be thought-provoking for you and maybe cause you to look around and see in what ways that you can serve the body of Christ and in particular the orphan.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh, today we are also talking about she's not just an adoptive mom and a foster care mom and then a mom of her own four kids, but um she has written a book called Stolen Jesus.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is a fascinating title, and really the story behind it I thought was beautiful.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: You'll hear a ton in the conversation, but she began to realize that maybe she had painted an incorrect version of Jesus.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I think we can do that and not realize it.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: But life has a way, as does Jesus, um, because he really wants us to see him for who he is.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: So I'll let you hear the details for yourself, and I think you'll enjoy this conversation with Jamie Amory.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: So you just said um, so you moved.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, did you guys live in the same town and now you're in different towns?
3:44
SPEAKER_01: Or we actually both lived on a ranch uh yeah, on our ranch in Abilene.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: And um we sold, we we have it for sale and we moved to the Houston.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: We both moved to the Houston area.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: But then but then I was launching my book and we just had a bad time.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: So Yeah, yeah, you've been a busy woman.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: So you've had a blog, um, Sacred Ground, Sticky Floors.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, how how many years have you been doing that?
4:09
SPEAKER_00: What kind of got you started doing uh, you know, writing and all that?
4:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, um I um I was it was part of our foster care journey.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: I was um yeah, I I got in trouble on Facebook because somebody put a picture of me on Facebook with a foster baby and tagged me in it.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so I got off Facebook and that was the only place I wrote.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: I didn't really write anything except funny stories on Facebook.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: And when I got off of Facebook, right after that we got the flu.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have a voice for nine days, and I had nowhere to put anything funny, and I wrote 60,000 words in nine days.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh my word! Oh my gosh, are you kidding?
4:53
SPEAKER_01: It's like a book.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: It's awesome.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: And I needed secret grounds to key floors, and I gave it to my mom and dad.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: And my mom and dad sent me to Mount Herman's Writers Conference to get it published.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: That was in December of 2014 or March of 2015.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And when I was there, somebody said, Well, they all said, We can't publish this, you have to have a platform, and I didn't know anything.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: I didn't even own a computer.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: So that was my husband's computer.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: And so I did everything on my phone.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: And so um, I was like, well, I don't have any interest in that.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm a foster mom, and I just wrote this.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: And they said there was like that's hilarious.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: There was like two people there that said, Um, well, you're not leaving here without starting a blog.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: So I put up nine blog posts in the that season.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: I had 65 readers, an average of 65 readers a month.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: In August, I still had 65 readers a month.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: And then in September, I put a post up on my phone, and open letters to my children were not that great.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: And that month I had 65,000 readers.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: What?
6:04
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And I got agents and a two-book deal.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: This is cracking in.
6:13
SPEAKER_04: So so you got the flu, couldn't talk, whipped out 60,000 words, went to a conference, got a bunch of readers, bam.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: That's hilarious.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: That's that's just like that is got me being something and igniting a fire.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, there is no word.
6:29
SPEAKER_04: I'm pretty sure I've never heard one like that before.
6:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Um it's very I love it.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: So that's your writing story.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: No, no one can, you know, replicate that one.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so foster mom.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean that's why I'm really excited to share this conversation this month because um because you are a foster mom, you've got you've written written about it, and it's National Adoption Month, which fostering does not always equal adoption.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: And you'll be talking about that and sharing about that.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: And I um I actually met a good friend of yours, and actually I don't know how good of a friend, but Sarah Bragg, who's another podcaster at Declare.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: And um, we were talking about us scheduling a podcast, and she's like, Oh, I really want you to talk to Jamie, and she's got this great story, and she's like, You gotta ask her about you know how she got to know Jesus and her new book and fostering.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, so we're gonna talk about all of that because I've been digging around on your website and reading your stuff, but I think they're I mean, you've got some deep, rich content, and I'm excited to hear more.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: So, dive in how you maybe like your foster journey.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: I I think you have, you know, some of your own kids are maybe even grown and gone.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, a marine son for sure.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: I know that.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: So talk to us a little bit about your family makeup and what that looks like.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: We have four biological children, and then we have two adopted sons.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: And we only in the last year, we had it, we had a placement, we called her joy hashtag joy baby on um the um online.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: She was with us for 18 months, and uh she was reunited with her mom the same uh time that our son left for Marine Boot Camp.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh wow man, lots of hurt there.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: That's a lot.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: She um her mom and I were very, very close.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: And actually, in both of our foster long-term foster placement situations, we've had a a really unique situation which um isn't always recommended, or maybe I I always kind of go into situations thinking that people are gonna like me, and that's not always the case.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: I always hate that.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, come on, everyone's also like me.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm a nice person.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: With our and and I do I do always stress this because um I I went into we we had gone through a season of real tragedy in our personal lives when we got into adoption and I um we adopted Sam.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: He was in foster care for 10 days, but he was never in foster care with us.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay, he was just we he was a straight adoption, but he was um it was over the Christmas holidays.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: He was born um over the Christmas holidays, and he was um actually his mother had left as a Jane Doe.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: She had no intention of coming back and she didn't know English, and so his interpreter or her interpreter, um, because she was didn't speak any English, stayed with him until he could be placed with a foster family, and then he was placed.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: So she went above and beyond.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: But then on our to go pick him up, his birth mother and the interpreter showed up and she asked if she could hold him, and she sat for an hour and sang to him in Spanish.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: And so I love that story just because I have such a heart for birth mothers, it's um such a huge, huge life-giving thing to do.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, ultimately sacrifice.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so I love that I have that story for him that she she was there with him for a little while.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: But then he was much younger than our other children.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, like you mentioned, uh, our oldest Maggie is 22.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: She recently just got married, and then um John is a Marine, Luke is 18, he and Sophie, who's 15, still live at home with us.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: And um uh, and then we have Charlie and Sam, or Sam and Charlie.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Sam was our first adoption, and then we decided to pursue foster care.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, I did that um this for probably the same reasons.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: I I hate to say this because I think it disappoints some people because I I think that there's a romantic side to um what people see about adoption.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: I um truly believed that it was a way to appease God.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: I love children and I love our children, but I I was very works oriented, and I believed that if I did these things that seemed very sacrificial and very hard, even though I loved them, that that it would keep me from having more heartache.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: And um so my this is how clever I am that what we could do is we could be a foster to adopt family, and then that way I wouldn't get hurt because we would just go in and we'd just adopt.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: We um knew somebody that had two foster daughters, they'd had them for a long time, and they were gonna have to be removed because they didn't they couldn't be adopted into their home because they had too many children, and so we just adopt them.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: That was my plan, and that plan that plan fell through.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so um about a month and a half later, we got a phone call, and um it was our social worker, and she said, We have a little boy, a three-month-old baby boy here at the hospital, and he is badly injured and alone.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Will you come sit with him?
12:18
SPEAKER_01: With the possibility of him coming home with you as your foster son.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Is he adoptable?
12:26
SPEAKER_01: He said, I don't know, Jamie, but he's here alone and he's and that was the first time that I said it out loud.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, we we a lot of people say, Well, I could never do foster care because I'm afraid I'd get hurt.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: Right.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: So very few of us think about actually saying it to a child.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: And I so I left my house and I took um a book, um uh Pure Joy, which is um praying for the heart of Scripture into the heart of a the life of a child.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: And I went to the hospital and I climbed on the bed and they handed him to me, and I read that book to him all night.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: And we called him Codename Charlie online, and we spent two years going through um parts of parts of it where we just knew he was supposed to go be back with his family and other parts where we knew that wasn't gonna work.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: And um then in the end, it was actually um a year ago, October 31st, we adopted him.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: And um, I made a promise to his grandmother who has his other brothers that we would stay in touch and we have.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: He still sees them.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: In the course of that, we took on our second placement at Joy Baby.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Um we took respite care in between there.
13:47
unknown: Wow.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: But um just that that's when you take in um like help another foster family.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: The minute that I laid eyes on her, there was a part of me that knew that she needed to be with her mother.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: The minute that I met her mother, I knew how much we needed each other.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: And um we did towards the end, we we did intervene um to keep her, but we did that to protect her and her parents because the the system had gone on so long, it had gone on for too long.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: And our first year, if we hadn't stepped forward, then if things hadn't gone well, they could have removed her from us too.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: Um that's what we did.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: And then um the the the very last hearing, she was um reunited with her parents or her her her mother.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it was hard.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: So um about a week after that we did take another little placement.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: She was very temporary.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: Um for we had her for about two weeks.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: She had a broken leg and she was a hoot.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Gosh, she was funny.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: Um when she left, about the same time she left, um her uh Joy Baby's um mother left the state, and we just we felt like we needed to take a little bit of a break.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Just kind of heal.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: So this this is the thing um a lot of people don't hear her say I hear it among foster families, but we just needed we've needed some time to heal.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean it's been absolutely and that's her, and I miss her mom.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: I miss her.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: What was what was some of the stuff that you felt like I I just think it's really beautiful you would even see it, but that you needed each other and that you know you obviously must have learned um from her in that whole journey.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: What what was that like?
15:44
SPEAKER_00: What was it that she helped, you know, reveal in your life?
15:49
SPEAKER_01: Restoration and and too that um, you know, forever I was so afraid of God and so afraid of this wrath from him.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: It was actually during both place both of those placements that I would see this brokenness among these families, but I knew the truth about myself.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: And we think it's so easy for us to look at foster families and go, oh, they're so sweet, and I I know us.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, sweet isn't one of our great we're getting we get by that we're not perfect by any means, and so um and none of us are.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: We just gotta make sure we clarify that.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: And if you think you are, you're you're fooling yourself.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: So but I was under the impression I I really was under the impression that there was somehow some kind of finish line that we would cross.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: And I believe that being a foster family was one of those finish lines that you know that that that's what and then when people would say, Oh, you're a foster family, oh so sweet, and then I'd go home and you know, just like have a horrible evening or something, yelling at my kids, I'm gonna kick your lung out, or you know, just losing it.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: And so we were in such a bad place in a couple of other issues that it made me feel like a such a hypocrite.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: And so I would go um into my closet where I like to pray, and there's one specific time, and it was actually right before we were about to lose Charlie, and they were literally gonna remove him.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: There was not anything we could do about it, and I was praying, and I knew all these people were praying for us, you know, that we'd get to keep him.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: We're we're just praying so hard that you get to keep him, and um, I knew that his family was praying the same thing, like that, and that was the same thing with Joy Baby's mom.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Her prayers were for restoration.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I my question started being, you know, God, how do you pick?
17:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I know I know the bad things about me.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: There's bad things are, you know, by the society standards, seem like they're a lot worse.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: But but how do you pick?
18:01
SPEAKER_01: And it was an audible moment where he said, I pick all of you.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: I pick all of restoration.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: And um seeing that no matter how hard it was, and um no matter how much hurt there is, but even being able to see that, say that out loud, is that we serve a God of restoration, and he picked all of us.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: He went to the cross for all of us.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: And and that hurts and it's hard and it's awful and it's heartbreaking sometimes, but he didn't do that.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't, he's not this bartering chip that I that I had with him, or this bartering tool that I had with him, you know, to to adopt babies or whatever, to impress him, but he loves me, and if I don't do those things, he still loves me.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and he still restores.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: But my restoration story included adoption and seeing the restoration of families and other people that need to restore.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: Um he he's been um revealed to me in the gentlest form, and in that my greatest hope is that people see him.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: I I feel like he's been so wrongly accused.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and by people like me that you need to say, well, God must be trying to teach you something, you know, really gotta get together.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: And that's not how I treat my children.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I remember that with Joy Baby's mom too, and the first time that I met her.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: Um the first time I met Joy Baby, I I remember that the very first thing I said the minute I saw her is where's her mom?
19:35
SPEAKER_01: And they said, Well, she's fine.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And I said, and I knew she wasn't.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: I knew that beautiful baby girl's mom was not okay.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: And so then it was the 70, 72 hours, you have 72 hours for the first meeting.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: And she walked in, and I remembered that um she looked at the baby and she just flew into my arms, and we just stood there and hugged, and she sobbed and just kept saying, Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: And I just remember uh feeling so much love for her and knowing I was crazy about this baby already, and I would have gladly adopted her.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: But I just hoped so much that there was more to this story, you know, like there was just there's there's always brokenness, but to think that he's dealing broke brokenness only adds to the brokenness instead of creating restoration.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is that'll preach.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, we've got tears over here and we're we're mopping off faces.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: Um so as we collect ourselves, um I mean I just it there's so much beauty in that.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: Um is that kind of where what you've done with Stolen Jesus and explained some of that and written you know a piece of that story of restoration and and your relationship with him?
21:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, stolen Jesus um saved me from that.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: So it's like um my it's actually a story of restoration in that um all the way the ways that I did believe those things about Jesus.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Um it in particular is my story of falling into the arms of grace.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Um my next book, Sacred Ground Sticky Floors, is more so um that freeing part of parenting and restoration and knowing the separation of my relationship with him versus my relationship with my children, which I kind of all just blobbed together into one.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: But this definitely is um my story of falling into the arms of a real Jesus and and and believing him.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: And um, I always say, you know, I worshipped at him or I worshipped, you know, for a reason because I because I believed it somehow would protect me because that was a Afraid of so many things.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: And I was I had a just a list of things that I thought had to be accomplished in order for him to be pleased or for me to be okay and for me to be restored in the things that I was even dealing with.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: And um when he so when I was writing Stolen Jesus, I had a post-it night on my computer that said set captives free.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: And I always thought that was pretty lofty of me.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: And so when I got to the ark, I called my sister crying because I got to American Jesus and the book had just flown from my fingers.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: And I can't seem to wrap my mind over what's next.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: And she said, I just listened to an audio sermon on the message of grace.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think you should listen to it.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: And so I did.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: And like 72 hours later, I finished my book and turned it in.
23:04
SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: You're a machine.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean I was set free.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: Um because I didn't know that that that there was I I it's it's almost laughable, but except for the people that I hear from that are like I didn't know either.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: But that we think we add to the cross, how insane is it that that I thought that I was adding to the mercy and greatness of the cross.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: So if if there was anything that could be done, foster care adoption, you know, novenas, walking on our knees, you know, for 400 miles.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Anything could add to the the power of the cross, wouldn't he have mentioned that?
23:50
unknown: Yeah.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: Like right.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: And and yet we do it.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: And we and we and do it to the unteenth power.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: So like the even little stuff like going over your Weight Watchers' points or not walking enough miles or oversleeping, any of these things that we add to that we think somehow justify us, whether we even realize it or not.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: But once we say it out loud, are we doing this to increase our our relationship?
24:15
SPEAKER_01: Or are we doing this to count ourselves worthy of the cross?
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Which you know, the cross was a big sacrifice, so there's a part of us that feels like we need to earn it.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we can't, but we can't, it's impossible.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: So paint paint to me maybe the contrasting Jesus, the one that you used to believe, um, and then what he looks like now to you.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, what I used to believe, and I this is my my my most favorite example, and I gave it to my daughter when I was explaining grace to her, my oldest daughter, and I said, Well, what would what would our relationship be like if I told you every single morning, no matter what, no matter if you were sick, no matter if you'd been up all night with one of the foster babies, no matter what, you have to meet me here at five o'clock to go over scripture and highlight it and write it down, and then I want you to tell me everything you've done right, everything you've done wrong, and everything that you plan to do or hope to do, and everything you want.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: And when you're done, depending on whether or not you get it all right this time, I may or may not spring your ankle to teach you a lesson.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, yeah, no, thank you.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't want anything to do with that.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: No thanks.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: But how many of us believe that?
25:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many how many of us in the Christian world have like their whole lives?
25:34
SPEAKER_00: That is how they see Jesus.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: There's this mindset that this is what I have to do, and then there's the mindset that okay, well, she didn't my ankle didn't get sprained, but I ended up with a flat tire on the side of the road, and my my bank account won't, you know, my ends don't meet and this kind of things, versus and and this is my other example based on my dad, my my earthly father, and my husband, who are both exceptional dads, and I know that not everybody can do this because they don't always have this example, but um when um we had um well well I was sick uh last year with mono.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Um couldn't quite quite get over it, and I and I called my dad and um he paid, he sent me a credit card and sent me to Dallas, and I had these like blood treatments where they took my blood out and put it through a light thing, and he'd call and check on me and you know called ahead and made sure I was paid for.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: And when I came and saw him, he was so nice to me, he was so kind, he was so worried, he was so loving, so dear, as was my husband.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Nobody was mad at me, nobody was angry with me, and yet if I look back in my journals before the Christmas, so this was about 19 months ago, I guess, before the Christ message, that was my part.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: I am so sorry.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm such a loser.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: I know you're furious with me, I know I'm sleeping too much, I know I've gained weight, you know, just sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: Why why is that?
27:05
SPEAKER_01: Because I believed that I was I was I believed I was in trouble.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: And so when but then when I looked at my dad and how my dad all he wanted for me was wellness.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he just wanted me to get healthy again.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't in trouble, he wasn't angry, he wasn't disgusted, he was it wasn't his last straw.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: And the same with my husband, he was truly concerned, and so now when I look at Jesus like that, what a huge relief.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: And talk about health and the health benefit of not only that's stressful right there in itself.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: It is for sure.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: It's paralyzing.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, how do you yeah, I mean, how do you function with that?
27:48
SPEAKER_00: But so many of us frame, you know, that's just what he looks like, and that's what he's expecting of us, and that's what we have to do.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: As this has shifted in your heart, and it sounds like you've already begun to translate in this into lessons and words, not only for your kids and your family, but and for others.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: What does it look like now?
28:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, I know you're taking a break from foster care, but as you look to huge, you know, future possible adoptions and foster care, you know, how does it, you know, how some of that shift in your heart happened and taken place?
28:22
SPEAKER_00: Because I know you're you're one of, you know, really probably millions who who are like, I can't foster because of the emotional toll.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: And the emotional toll is real and it is something, you know, to take into account, but it's not the in all answer.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: And you've you know, so many people go ahead and do it anyway.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: But when you do step into it, you have to know the Lord's calling you.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: And for you, now that looks different because you know that's not earning his love, and you're not earning some sort of salvation, you know, buy one, get one free or something, or get out of jail free card.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: So what does that look like for you?
29:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's actually a huge relief.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: Um I think that um when I pray about it and when I think about it, I'm very hopeful that um Do we still have you?
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Do I still have you?
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: Um I'm very, very hopeful that um he's going to use our story in some way.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm very hopeful that if there's other children, that he um that there's there's there's still a part of us.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: I think that um we love our we love our children and and we actually had so much fun um with foster care.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: Um I think that when the ran when our our ranch is for sale and when Dustin's here full-time, um there's the possibility of us, and we've talked about you know discussing it again, but there's not the stress of it.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah not not that there's not heartbreak there's it's not that there's not heartbreak.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Of course there's heartbreak for children who are suffering.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: But I think um, you know, um I I hear this so often from people, um I heard it just recently from a friend that's son came to them in the middle of the night and he was just sobbing and he said, you know, ever since I got saved, Jesus won't let me sleep because he just he just he keeps calling me to Africa.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: And this mom sat up and she was like, Are you nuts?
30:30
SPEAKER_01: You're 15 years old.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: That's not Jesus.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: The Holy Spirit is not compelling you to go right now.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, may lay something on your heart.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: He's not keeping you up night, keeping you from a good night's sleep.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: He came to give you peace, life, joy, abundance.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: And yes, we're to go out into the world and and and and feed the hungry and and take care of the orphans and the widows and and all of these things, but he didn't do it to torment us.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he didn't use it, he wasn't it's not there to to torment us.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's actually even in our speak, I can't do foster care because I'm afraid.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: Okay, what are you afraid of?
31:10
SPEAKER_01: Are you afraid, you know, are you afraid of the system or are you afraid that God's not gonna protect your family?
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Or is it just not your calling?
31:17
SPEAKER_01: And if it's not your calling, okay, then it's not for everybody, yeah.
31:21
SPEAKER_02: Right.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think that there's some ease in that of not having to make the excuse, you know what, that's not for us.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: And for even for me, I think that we get so wrapped up in our in our identity with our works, you know.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: I homeschooled for years.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: When I stopped homeschooling, I was embarrassed to tell people I stopped homeschooling.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: I know exactly what you're talking about.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but that's where God had called us.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: So was I embarrassed for me, for my kids, or because of what God was asking me to do for my family.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: It's so it's so huge how we do wrap our.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I kind of went through an identity crisis, I think, this summer, and um in the process of it, like my hip literally went out and you know, and just had to, I felt like I was wrestling with God over it.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, he's been uh just so showing me so much beauty and grace through that, and then even been able to turn around and extend it to others of like, hey, yeah, I mean, like where is that thought coming from?
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Is this an expectation of the world or is this actually what the Lord is calling you to?
32:22
SPEAKER_00: And that is two huge different things.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: And the other one is slavery and bondage and burdensome, whereas when we're doing it because you know, it's what he's given us and what he's calling us to, and we're doing it with him, then it's it is light and easy, you know, to an extent that we're like, yeah, there's a lot of joy in it, and we can see him working that out.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: So that's beautiful, that's awesome.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's he just he's he he can't be both a monster and a good father, he's just a good father.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite characters of C Spee always says, Satan is bad, God is good, and it's that it's really that easy.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's from Satan, but God is good, and yes, there's still sadness, but falling into the arms of loving God and not thinking that you have to figure him out or that there's some psychological warfare going on where he's trying to refine you, but the blood worked, and you are righteous and good, and his kid, and he's looking after you, and he picked you, and he picked these, he picked, he picked all of us, you know.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: That that mindset of I'm not better than these people, but we're all here, and we're this is the body, it it's so freeing, and it is such a stress reducer to not think constantly that you're in trouble and that the other shoe is fixing a drop.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know man, how many of us I was just talking to a really good friend, and um, you know, she's just been blessed with a lot of you know really good things happening, but she struggles with the mindset, as do I, and as do a lot of people I love, where like if things are going really, really well, then somehow the Lord will not continue to say sustain that, and you know, boom, that or she's gonna drop something terrible's gonna happen, and we're gonna be like, see, I told you it couldn't all just be that good.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: And I it's just such ill um ill conceit.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: There's nowhere in the Bible that it says that, and it just promises that trials and tribulations will happen, but that's just part of the side of heaven, and it's part of oh it's okay, no worries.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, I think I think that's so good.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: And when we frame frame the Lord as a good, good father and realize that and and really look to that, then it changes all of those, but he's not looking to throw us a curveball.
34:42
SPEAKER_03: No, and he's not using, and I think so much of what you said, there's this sick idea that or this kind of twisted understanding of the sovereignty of God such that he has to be the author of even the bad things that happened to you.
34:53
SPEAKER_03: So I'm sorry, he gave you cancer because he wanted you to learn XYZ, or he gave you that horrible tragedy because he needed to teach you something, and that's so twisted.
35:03
SPEAKER_03: So I love everything you're saying.
35:05
SPEAKER_03: It's just really and a lot of people have that mindset.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: And how can you you you know, if you think about it, if if we're in that mindset, how can we possibly get to know him?
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: We're so and we're if we're so caught up in this fear of him, this wrathful, you know, I'm gonna show you something, far from are we from truly knowing him?
35:27
SPEAKER_01: And it actually grieves me because um and and I I I do give this back to him because he gets I I have this audible thing where I feel like I'm going, please stop.
35:39
SPEAKER_01: We've moved on from that.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: But I think about all the time that I wasted um was he was right there, and I it it wasn't him that I I was that was not who I was serving, that is not who I was worshiping.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: This guy was nuts, and he was, you know, destroying my family.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: He was um and it was all stuff in my head that I'd created based on little things people had said or religiosities that I believed that and and just a works-oriented, you know, type tendencies to to produce um so that he would be pleased, and it was never enough.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: And my my sister actually always says that about it.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: When would you ever know that it was?
36:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, when you ever get there.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: That was the equivalent of the cross.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: I think I can finally check that off my head.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: Phew! Praise the Lord.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: That is what you came here to do.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: It sounds nuts, but how many of us are actually doing it?
36:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: No, it's so true.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: So many.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: I know.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: I you said something about um, you know, that Jesus was nuts.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: I think that should be a t-shirt or something like the nuts so Jesus, and put a you know, a couple of the script of words and then the real Jesus.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: So when is your next book?
37:00
SPEAKER_00: You have um Stolen Jesus, an unconventional search for the real savior.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: And then you talked about your next book, Sacred Ground, Sticky Floors, right?
37:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, and I've already turned that in.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: Sacred Ground, Sticky Floors.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: The working title was Sacred Ground, Sticky Floors Um of Noble Birth.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: And um it I turned it in.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: I turned it in the week, I I write like a mad woman, but um so I turned that in the the week after um Joy Baby and John left.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: And um I wrote just wrote from the rawest place that I could of motherhood and race.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: And it just it was I I I I actually um emailed Kathleen um at Harvest House about a week and a half ago and said, if you haven't started on that, can I have it back?
37:49
SPEAKER_01: Because I thought of building more things and I've already started on it.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: I've already started on it.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: So I said, Okay, never mind.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I was supposed to just turn it in as is and then let her kind of pick away at it.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: But it um is truly um I of course stolen Jesus, I have high hopes of the continued freedom that I'm seeing and seeing birds of it, even though it is funny um and a lighthearted read in so many ways.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Um I just got another email, just and this is it's hard because it is funny, and so you don't want to make light of anybody's Jesus that they misrepresented, but the one in particular that continues to just claw at my heart was um a woman that that said you and she said you have to tell people about this because she said this is true.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: She said, My stepfather was a pastor and he molested me my entire time.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: Wow, and she said to associate um being used um sexually, you know, and all these lies that I attributed to Jesus, she said is it's she said, people need to know that's not who he is.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: But to you know, that unraveling is painful and it's hard, but it's so easy to do that because we're so hands-on and we see things and we touch things and we have all of these resources at our fingers.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: And so it's easy to, you know, attribute these things to this to the son of man.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: Um but with sacred ground sticky floors, it's gonna be more of a message to moms and wives, um, women, uh, about what it is to to live in the mess and and and him still be everything that he is, and it not count, you know, the our messes don't count against his glory.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: So that's good.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: And that's next next October.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: So it's actually I keep thinking as hard as launches, man, because it's all it's a lot more work than I thought it was gonna be.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: I can't do it again next year.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't blame you.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of it's daunting for sure.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: I was just part of a book launch too, and there's a lot that goes into it.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: I have a whole new appreciation for all things books.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: The you know, all the people who touch it, all the steps along the way, the time, the process, and the fact that you were able to like crank out the material like you did.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's super natural, and that's what's exciting.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: It is that's fun.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Although I have like five more ideas, and I keep thinking that's awesome.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't know for sure if I I might need a break between like sacred ground sticky floors and the next one just because so much work.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: The launch part is the work.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: Writing is nothing.
40:27
SPEAKER_03: I can just apparently not.
40:28
SPEAKER_03: You just whip it out in two or three days, and there's a book.
40:32
SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but a launch process, and you still I mean, you have six kids, you have essentially two babies, you know, and two littles, and I mean like that's that's a lot of life um to do, and then mixed up all of it because it's a full-time job.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: It's a full-time job, but it's fun.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love it.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm I'm excited.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Admittedly, I have not been able to read Stolen Jesus yet.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of on my pile.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: That's the beautiful thing of being getting to be a podcaster, is that I get to read a lot of books.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: And there's then, but then there's a lot of books that I want to read.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: So, but um, it's gonna be it's on my wish list and it's definitely gonna be purchased and shared.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: And we'll just continue to talk more about it because I I mean your message, I've gotten to hear some of your stuff before and read and watch, and um, I love your authenticity and vulnerability through all of this, and the message for fostering and adopting alone is great, but I mean the beauty is that you're portraying Jesus as who he is and the loving, kind savior that he, you know, he's reaching out and he just wants us to reach back.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm I really, really like him.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: I really and in our household, my husband always says that.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: My kids used to say all the time, how can you say you because my husband says I like you and my kids how can you say I like you instead of I love you?
41:50
SPEAKER_01: And he he would always say, 'cause of course I love you.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: You're my kid.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: But I have come to this place where that means so much to me, and I love to say how much I like Jesus.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, just genuinely like him.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, we like you, Jamie, for sure.
42:08
SPEAKER_03: I like you a lot.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: We'll talk to you anytime.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: You have a wonderful rest of the day.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for all your time, and we're excited to get your message out.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, friends, for joining us today.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: We sure hope that you've enjoyed that conversation as much as Ashley and I did.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: And I hope that you'll be sure and check out Sacred Ground Sticky Floors.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: That is Jamie's website, and you can find out all the different ways to connect with her, read some more of her amazing stories, and then get your copy of Stolen Jesus as soon as you can.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: If nothing else to put it on your wish list.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: Um she was so generous, and after our conversation, and um I had mentioned that I hadn't gotten to uh read it yet, um, she Facebook messenger messengered me and was like, Can I have your address?
42:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna send you a copy.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: You guys were so wonderful.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: So that was super kind and really sweet, and I just love making new friends through this podcast and getting to meet some extraordinary people who are living wholeheartedly in the season that they're in.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: So um next week, guys, we're gonna kick off our holiday special Thanksgiving and Christmas podcast releases.
43:21
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna be changing up the music and a little bit of the theme of what we're gonna be talking about.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: Not too much, because really it's still about living wholeheartedly in every season, not just season of life, but season of the year.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: So Thanksgiving and Christmas requires a lot of us, and we thought we would do some special conversations just for this.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: So next week, Heather Deese is gonna be on the show talking about health and fitness and so much more because she and her husband do ministry in Florida.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: They're parents to five children, so there is a ton there in that conversation, and really rich.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: And then the week after that, we'll still be doing a special podcast release for Thanksgiving week, and that's gonna be with Shelly Miller.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I cannot wait to share that one that is about the rhythms of rest, her book, and how we can even find rest in the hustle and bustle of the season.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: So, so much to look forward to.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: So grateful that we get to do this, and we'll see you next week.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, find more ways to live simply wholehearted, unplugged, purposeful, and intentional.