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Lessons From a Fred Case Award Finalist · Remodelers On The Rise

• Kyle Hunt: Here at Remodellers on the Rise, we've worked with hundreds of remodeling companies. And one of the patterns we see again and again is this. When a company fully implements job tread, their business gets clearer. They know their numbers. They know where the jobs stand. They know what's making money and what's not. We've watched members go from guessing about profitability to having real-time visibility into their projects. That changes how you price, how you plan, and how you lead. Welcome to the Remodeler's On The Rise Show. Sometimes I'm chatting ⁓ a guest where I don't really know him other than, you know, a little prep meeting here or there, but I am at ease today. Because I'm chatting with my friend and client and ⁓ owner of MJ Kitchen and Bath in beautiful Plymouth, Michigan, ⁓ Matt Jenkins. I almost try to figure out what your, I see like what your middle name, what is, if I were to go full name, Matt what? Matt: Matthew Michael Jenkins. Kyle Hunt: JobTread brings estimating, scheduling, job costing, and invoicing into one connected system, and it works great. If you want more clarity and better control of your business, check out JobTread at JobTread, T-R-E-A-D, JobTread.com. MMJ, MMJ, owner of MJ, MMJ owner of MJ. There's something there. And I'm kind of at ease because we spent a good amount of time together in peer group and one-on-one coaching. We spent some time together on the golf course. We were just kind of talking about, ⁓ spring is coming. We might be able to get out there on a Friday morning because Matt, the idea of running a business is not so that we can work 60 hours a week, right? We ought to try. Matt: That's correct. Kyle Hunt: and carve out some time. And then last year we were like, this whole Friday early morning thing is kind of nice. Do you think you're going to, even though you got this show, you got a new baby since then, you got a showroom going, do you think you're going to be able to carve out the time or are going to be too busy? I want to tell you about something that we see all the time in our coaching work. A remodeler joins, remodeler's on the rise, feeling overwhelmed. Projects feel scattered, financials feel fuzzy, systems feel patched together. Then they implement JobTread. And over time, things start to change for the better. Their estimates get tighter, their schedules get clearer, their job costing gets more accurate, their invoicing gets more consistent. We've watched JobTread help our members move Matt: No, we'll make the time. It'll be good to get out there. I love playing with you. I am yet to beat Kyle, but I'm gunning for him. I know he wasn't going to bring that up, but I will. will run up to it. Kyle beat me a couple times. Kyle Hunt: Yes, yes, yes. I was not, I was absolutely not because I'm going to, I'm going to operate a professional podcast today. We were also talking before the record button that, ⁓ you were, you, you have a new microphone and you were showing your kiddos that, and they're like, what are you doing dad? And you're like, well, I'm recording a podcast today that, that one use some dad points. And then you were listening to the ⁓ earlier podcast that we did and what came on during that podcast. from chaos to control, not overnight, but in a sustainable way that supports growth. It's an all-in-one platform built for remodellers who want to run a real business, not just stay busy. If you're ready for a better system, better decisions, learn more at jobtread.com. Matt: ⁓ Kyle talked about dog poop for a very long time in the last podcast, but I thought it was weird my kids greatly enjoyed it and That was the highlight of the previous podcast for them Kyle Hunt: Mm. Hmm. I thought to myself, how do I end up talking about dog poop on a professional podcast? So I am going extra professional. We will not go down rabbit trails like that. We will stay focused on pure, full octane value for the people that are listening to this wonderful podcast today. ⁓ Matt, if you wanted to give a a little backstory of kind of who you are and your business. And then ⁓ after that, I will tell people the direction we're going. in the topic today. Matt: Great. I started working with my dad about 10 years ago and we've been chipping away growing the business. And so we have about a 15 person team. ⁓ As of yesterday, we got a 15 person team. And so yeah, we do mostly kitchen and bathroom modeling. We're based in Plymouth, Michigan, ⁓ have a showroom. We're building out a new one, which we're really excited about. And so, yeah, we got some good things in the future here that we're excited for. And yeah, I've been working with Kyle now for a little while and that has been quite helpful. ⁓ and enjoyable as well. Kyle Hunt: Amazing, amazing. Before we get into the topic, actually, let me interject one other thing. Showroom, showroom. If you were to say, you know, as we've been developing a brand new kind of, all right, we got a little bit of a blank slate here as we build out this showroom. A lot of people listening either have one or kind of considering one. What are some of the kind of the fresh thoughts that you have or decisions that you've made that you're kind of excited about for this new iteration of the showroom? Matt: Yeah, I think as we've been growing and maturing, ⁓ we've been getting more and more comfortable with higher end product. And so I think we're trying to show some of that. ⁓ Our custom line will do one inch thick doors and drawer fronts. And ⁓ it just makes the entire cabinet feel heavier and beefier. ⁓ Little details like that. Some of the finishes that we're doing. And so I think in our current showroom, we did a nice job and it's a lot of nice displays. I think there's a couple of ⁓ like, wow, centerpieces that we're trying to put in the new showroom that I think customers will really like and then I think our approach on that if we're just trying to show and educate them on what's possible, so I don't I personally don't enjoy being very salesy and trying to shove upgrades down people's throats, but I do want to kind of hopefully have some options that they'll be able to see and They might appreciate them enough that they want to put them in so we're trying to do a lot of fun stuff like that Shout out to Austin Cornell and the peer group. I asked the the peer group if there were any ideas or if they had any suggestions for our showroom in Austin, thought that a golf simulator ⁓ would be a great idea. And so we're going to have a Murphy door that's going to have a hidden room behind it. There's going to be a golf simulator in there, ⁓ which will be great for both personal and professional use. yeah, we're trying to get there right off and it's going to help me be Kyle. ⁓ So yeah, I'm excited for some of those things. Kyle Hunt: Mmm. It's a ⁓ write-off, Okay, excellent, excellent. So what we're gonna talk about today is ⁓ fall of last year and it was, I don't know if it was even the start of this year, you kind of threw your name in the hopper for the Fred Case Award. And then you became a finalist and then you actually went to Case headquarters and got to have dinner with them and spend some time with them. And you learned a lot through that. And as I was listening to you unpack some of what you learned and the experience, I thought this would be wonderful. to kind of capture in podcast form so others can kind of learn and ⁓ hopefully grow from it as well. You yesterday said, let me actually reach out to Bruce Case and just make sure that he's all good with me sharing what I've learned. And he said, what? Matt: He said share freely and yeah, Bruce and Bill over there have been just very very transparent and helpful. ⁓ I think they really just want the industry to get better. So they were they were very excited about this. Kyle Hunt: Yeah, that's one thing that definitely gathered was this idea of, know what, we have our way of doing it. We've learned it this way. And we're going to approach business from a standpoint of we're going to give, we're going to share, we're going to give our secrets, quote unquote, away. And we're going to try to kind of raise all the boats instead of instead of otherwise. That doesn't mean that they don't want to grow a great business. That doesn't mean they want to don't want to grow a big business, but they have no interest in tearing down everybody else's business to build theirs. They wanna actually support the industry, which is great. So you threw your name in the hopper for the application. ⁓ I'd be curious to kind of hear the process and the approach for that. And then you highlighted on kind of two initiatives to try to stand out amongst the applicants. Tell us about that process and tell us about the two initiatives. Matt: Yeah, so Matt Quinn is our controller and he works alongside and this is a the award is something I think Matt found or we heard about maybe on their podcast. ⁓ And so it asks for some basic information just in terms of years in business, how many people are on payroll. ⁓ Yeah, they're also looking like how you mentioned a couple of your initiatives that you worked on. So there are more or less two things that we submitted. One of them for us had to do with unreasonable hospitality and trying to serve our team members as well as our clients really, really well. And the other one had to do with our sales process and how we're trying to make that a little bit quicker and a little bit more ⁓ high tech, high speed while still maintaining a high touch experience. And so I had a couple of team members here who both worked on kind of submitting the application and ⁓ yeah. And then we did some back and forth with case after we submitted it so they could fully understand exactly what we did and how we went about doing that. Kyle Hunt: Cool. So the one of the ⁓ related to the speed with the sales process, Matt and I actually ⁓ recorded, where is my notes on that? I think I have my thing closed here. I'll pull it up as we go. But we actually recorded a full podcast related to what is the advantage and what is the process for kind of speeding up and effectively using technology. in the sales process. There it is, streamlining sales for remodelers. It's from March, 2025, streamlining sales for remodelers. So if you're in listening to this podcast, ⁓ just go to Remodelers on the Rise, streamlining sales for remodelers kind of unpacks that. So we'll let that stand on its own. But tell me a little bit about the unreasonable hospitality angle. What was kind of special? What was kind of interesting about that? And how did that come about? Matt: Yeah. So maybe just a quick background on unreasonable hospitality. There's a book that outlines this and there's a restaurant in New York that eventually went on to be named the best restaurant in the world. And the focus of the book is that once you get to being kind of the top of the market, everybody's going to be good specifically in the restaurant world. Everybody's going to be good at making food. And so what is going to make you different and unique? And so there is a company, Eleven Madison Park, ⁓ in New York that decided to make their differentiator. They wanted that to be service. And so they went about serving people unreasonably well. And that looked like a lot of different ways to a lot of different people. And it was a very fun read and it really resonated with us. If you haven't read it, I highly, highly recommend it. And so that caused some inspiration in our company and we wanted to try to share that with folks. And so there's a local company right down the street from us. ⁓ Mano and they do men's clothing and so I had been in there once before almost out of desperation I was trying to get a suit made up really quickly and ⁓ just the entire feel of the the establishment it's a father-son combination and they have tailors that have been with them for a very long time and just the music and the presence and the smell and the Experience and they sit you down and they ask you if you want bourbon or espresso and just like it's just very very fun And so I got talking with the owner And we kind of bonded over the book of Unreasonable Hospitality. Did we just become best friends? Yeah, it was one of those moments. So we ended up hitting it off. And then we wanted to do some training with our guys. And so that experience that I had, I really wanted to share that with folks on our team. And so we took a Kyle Hunt: Was it one of those moments where he's like, dude, I read that too. And, you read that? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Matt: the guys over there and we took the gales over there and we kind of did like a podcast forum with the owner and we just kind of asked them about how they approach service and unreasonable hospitality. And so that was an awesome learning experience for us. And then we were, ⁓ yeah, we wanted to gift all of our guys like basically a suit coat and in very unreasonable, unhospitality fashion, Anthony decided to throw in some pants for him too. And they basically got a full outfit out of it. That was something that we paid for, I really viewed that as like tuition and it was a great opportunity for those guys to experience five star level service. So now hopefully they can give five star level service to our customers. And so ⁓ that was something that we did. We thought it was cool. We put it in the application and I think Case enjoyed it as well. So ⁓ yeah, that's a little backstory on that. Kyle Hunt: Excellent, excellent. And what would be, me one or two little examples of how you feel like you've solidly integrated unreasonable hospitality into kind of your remodeling experience for your clients. Matt: Yeah, two things come to mind. ⁓ The first one is like going back to the restaurant analogy. If the restaurant's food stinks, but the service is phenomenal, it doesn't really matter if they wow you with some crazy experience or if they do an excellent job or they have all these walking formats. So the traffic flows really well and they do these things that are above and beyond, ⁓ but they serve their food and it's raw and it gets you sick. Like it doesn't matter. And so I think for us, there's been a recognition and a doubling down on our service and our product needs to be excellent first and foremost. And so I think that's something that is very much so front of mind for me. And in terms of like the fun stuff, that's been kind of like the sprinkle on top. And that's been really cool to see people in the company really start to rally behind that. And so there's been little towel warmers that were taken out to people's homes when they get done with a bathroom. And that's really neat. Some of our customers just recently were serving the guys some coffee in the morning and they're doing, we're doing just a little bathroom over there and the guys brought over a handwritten card at the end of the job. They brought over a little basket that had the carry pods in it. And so this thing probably costs $20, but it was very personalized and the customer's given our guys a hug on the way out the door and just like they're already back in the queue for another bathroom. Um, but like it's been really fun to see the guys run with that and it's not necessarily me implementing it, but seeing these little Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Matt: success stories pop up. It's just been, yeah, it's been very neat, very fun, and it's cool that we're making a difference and making some people happy. That's been great. Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Yeah, because because because more than just the well, here's what we do each time. That's not really the vibe of it. It's more it's a philosophy of like, yes, we are going to offer excellent finished product. That's that's a given. Now, what what do we do that's kind of unreasonable? It depends on the situation. But like the example you just gave is like the idea that the the the carpenter said, you know, let's hand write this note. Amazing. You know, and here's a little thing. Matt: Yeah. Kyle Hunt: That's the Keurig that they like. Those are the Paws that they like. Let's make that happen. That is not crazy like, ⁓ you just blew my socks off, but it is because it still is, know, paying attention. So that philosophy to get the team to understand that, you heard kind of loud and clear, Matt recommended this book, Unreasonable Hospitality. He mentioned it's kind of an easier read. It's very story form. It's very practical. As you read it, you'll be like, ⁓ I could absolutely talk to my team about that. ⁓ we could start implementing that. I highly recommend it as well as one of my favorite books. ⁓ I say that. Now it's not like Kyle has read 1,000 books in the last 10 years. So I feel a little bad of saying like it's one of my favorite books ⁓ because that's not pulling from 1,000, but it's pulling from a decent number. And I thought it was an excellent book. Now when Matt says it, he is an avid reader. It carries some weight. Now, man, I said I was going to take this serious, which we have so far. We're already delivering a little value. We're about to get into the bulk of it of you spent a full day at Case. You talked advertising and marketing and the architect design and this estimating the sales process production. But I'm a little worried because you mentioned that your kids thought this was amazing that you're recording a podcast. going be like, Dad, we want to listen to recording. And I feel like they're going to be bored so far. Like we're just talking business. Matt: What do want? Dog poop? What do you want to talk about? Okay. Kyle Hunt: How could we? No, no, we don't need to go potty talk, but what would get their attention? What would they love to hear you talk about? Matt: We got the so you guys remodelers on the rise is highly sought after, very demanded. They have quite the production schedule at this point. I know that we right now are up against March Madness. My kids are very excited about March Madness. When people hear this, March Madness will probably be done. But probably throwing a little bit of talk in there about Michigan and we're on the downswing, Michigan State and Izzo. And are they clicking at the right time? I mean, we we could talk. Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Matt: I don't know if that's a good idea or not. Kyle Hunt: We could go there. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to go on record here on the recording on March 18th, 2026 at 1220 PM. You're going to call your shot. If you want to call Final Four, if you want to call Final, if you want to call champion, put it out there and that will be very impressive to your kids. Matt: ⁓ call my shot. I'll keep it simple. I'm gonna go Arizona is likely taking home the championship. I hope that lands for me. That'd be awesome. So I'm gonna go Arizona. What you got? Kyle Hunt: Hmm and and what's your prediction of the the mighty wolverines are going to get their crap together and they're going to take care of business Matt: No, no no LJ case and being out that's a that's that's a buzzkill. We need another point guard I don't have them going past the elite eight Yeah, and I like Michigan I like Michigan a lot I'm a I'm a big wolf Kyle Hunt: Wow. What about that giant, the giant, giant seven footer and the K what's what's the, what's the point guard's name? Yeah. Mara. He's a beast. Got the big time player of the year. And then who's the, who's the other point guard starts with a C. Matt: Mara? Hey Mara? He's a big boy. He's like seven three. Yeah. Elliot Godot, we got Yaxle, he's a big guy. Kyle Hunt: Yes, he's gonna stay out of foul trouble. He stays in the game. We don't need a backup. You just watch Dusty Mays gonna pixie dust some magic, sprinkle some magic on this team and they're gonna bring home their first title since the 80s. Matt: You're a- You're paying tuition up at Michigan State, right? No cheering for them. Kyle Hunt: Nah, not really interested in... I feel like Tom Izzo is kind of losing a little bit of the luster. I feel like he's very angry. He's becoming an old, cranky man. He was already cranky, but now everything's bothering him, and his point guard keeps kicking people in the nether regions and needs to stop it. Matt: Good for you. He's really angry. He's really angry all the time. Angry guy. That's true. That's true. You just made me, you just made my kids happy. You just talked about it. can. Yeah. Kyle Hunt: There we go. Now your kids have heard the word. There we go. We talked about nether regions. Dan, what is he talking about? Kids, your dad will explain it. OK, there we go. Now I feel good. I could care. I care about the people listening to this and the value to the remodeler, but we've allowed the Jenkins kids to smile. Kids say it again. Nether regions. All right, so you had a little dinner with the leadership team and then you had a full day of training. What was kind of your takeaways from the dinner that you had with a little bit broader leadership team down a case? Matt: Yeah, super fun. I am going to spitball and I probably should know this off the top of my head. But I want to say that there are probably about six folks or so from their leadership team that was at the dinner. And it was just so like relaxed and fun. And I think that was our takeaway when we got back to the hotel and we just talking about like they they just really liked working with each other and they really like like that. It didn't feel like a work dinner. It felt like it was friends going out to dinner. and welcoming some strangers into their town. And so we were able to talk some shop and it was cool to be around them. But like just that was my biggest impression was like, wow, wouldn't it be awesome to have a leadership team that and a lot of them have been there for 15, 20, 30 years. Some of those guys have been working together for 30 years. And so for me, that was kind of, yeah, just inspiring. I'm 30. How old am I? 34. I got a young team generally here. So it just was like, ⁓ man, that's really cool. And I hope to build something toward that where Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Matt: I continue to invest in the relationships and it's not just, I have to go work with these people, but man, I really want to go spend time with these folks was definitely the takeaway from that dinner. Kyle Hunt: Yeah. Yeah. And that inspiring and seeing a vision of like, oh, this is how this could look. doesn't mean it's necessarily going to look that way, but to say, you know what, that idea of continuing to put culture at the forefront, continuing to make sure that we're having fun at work, that we're being challenged at work, that we're challenging each other as well, and frankly, that we enjoy being around each other. Frankly, business is hard. Matt: Right. Kyle Hunt: and that can make business a little more enjoyable. Matt: Yep, agree with you. Yeah, and I it might help to set the stage to cases a very large company they they do I'm gonna spit ball between 50 to 60 million a year. I think that a couple years Yeah, COVID everybody kind of blew up and I think they did and they were trying to right size a little bit after that but they're a really big organization and they have multiple locations and so All the folks sitting around that table were just like highly qualified highly educated very smart and just like yeah top top notch people ⁓ Kyle Hunt: Excellent. And you and three of three of your team members were able to go. For this day. Matt: So yeah, good to be around. Yep. So Mike is my dad. He's the founder. went and then that Quinn, our controller went and then Joe is on the production side of things. And so they're very gracious. And again, let us bring out multiple team members. So it's cool to have people there from different parts of our company. Kyle Hunt: Very kind. So as you kind of went around to what the case team, let's start with kind of the advertising and marketing side of things. What stood out to you there that you've kind of brought back or that gave you kind of some fresh perspective? Matt: Yeah, that were really behind case was the major takeaway just they have two people dedicated just a straight up advertising. So ⁓ one person is working on ⁓ I would call it more organic. So Facebook post, putting gifts together for clients, helping with flyers, helping the guys in the office if they need an email put together, they need to reach out to their past customers. So somebody was very much like working. kind of like the smaller Kyle Hunt: Mm. Matt: Smaller is probably not the right word for it. But ⁓ yeah more in-house advertising I guess I would say and then they had someone who was just straight up going after like Washington Post and putting a lot of press out to the public ⁓ And so I mean that blows my mind because we do a little bit of marketing here and there but nothing like the outreach was incredible the statistics, the AI that they're using, and I'm not gonna do it justice, unfortunately, trying to explain it all here, but I was just very blown away by the intentionality that they're putting into getting out into the public's eyes, and that's probably how you get bigger too, would be my guess. Kyle Hunt: Oh, yes, that idea of sometimes we wear it as a badge of honor of, hey, I hardly spend anything on advertising marketing. And I'm like, you seem happy about that. Well, I am happy about that. Okay, fair, fair. Now, if you're looking to grow your business, and let's say you've been in business for 10 plus years, there's going to be a certain amount if you're doing a good job, there's going to be a certain amount of just repeat and referral business, there's going to be a certain like, you know, I can depend on $750,000 or million dollars of of revenue coming in just from my normal repeat referral network. If you're really looking to grow your business, that's when you really need to take advertising and marketing seriously and or when you're at the level that they're at or even if you were at the $8 million mark or the $10 million mark or the $12 million mark, it is rare that you don't have a pretty robust marketing and advertising approach. I also thought it was interesting how you mentioned like one person like bigger picture, we got PR stuff, we got story writing, we got advertising, we got all of that going. And then the way that you described the other person, I kind of like to think of it as like the marketing little things coordinator, all those little things, those handwritten cards, those emails and letters that you can send out, the previous client outreach, gifts to clients, all those little things that enhance the experience. ⁓ And frankly, our previous client list is our most valuable marketing asset. How do we continue to nurture that? sounds like they've dedicated some time and money towards that. Matt: Yes sir, yeah, Maddie was the ⁓ Mally, I'm sorry, Maddie Mill Holland was was doing all of that. And she works with all the salespeople. So they have a huge sales team and she was basically on demand for them in terms of if they needed help putting together flyers, if they wanted to send something to past customers, if they want to do any level of I'm guessing prospecting in a new neighborhood, like she would help with all of that. So ⁓ pretty cool that they had a role figured out for that. And again, a well-oiled machine. So she was keeping very busy. She's their presentation they had. They cover a lot of stuff. It was very neat. Kyle Hunt: Good, good. We're talking to Matt Jenkins, a Fred Case Award finalist, about his day and his trip to the DC area, right? Yeah. Did you see any sights when you were down there? Matt: Yes, sir. No, we flew in had dinner had a full day and got out of there so Yeah Kyle Hunt: straight business, straight business. ⁓ Sales process, so that's marketing and advertising. Moving over into the sales process, some takeaways that you saw from that. Matt: Yeah, this was, this was pretty neat. ⁓ I, I do a lot of the sales for our company. And so, ⁓ what I really enjoyed was talking specifically to different people at dinner and even in the midst of different folks coming in and kind of sharing with us, I was very blown away by the fact that everybody was speaking the same language. And so something that Kyle says on the podcast is this is how we work. And those are very important words to be able to direct people, ⁓ as they come in to show them that there is a way that we do business. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Matt: everybody over there was seeing in the exact same system in the exact same process and so ⁓ They have podcasts on this and I would recommend that you go and check those out and hopefully Kyler Cassie can kind of link to some of those potentially but ⁓ Kyle Hunt: Or if you're to Design Build Central, think Qualified or Mahler might be tied in there, but Design Build Central is their podcast to look up. Matt: Yeah, and so just the I was the thing I was most impressed with was the system This is how we do it every customer goes through the same exact system And it really they do projects They have a friend division which we can get into which is more like a handyman division But once they get above I believe it was $30,000 that goes into kind of like the normal case process So they'll have a job from I'm guessing $30,000 all the way up to probably north of a million dollars. Their average job size was 250,000 ⁓ And so I just thought it was cool that no matter where you are in that spectrum This is how we work and this is how we do it was kind of built out and they've been doing it the same way it sounds like for a really long time and it's like There wasn't a lot of finessing it there wasn't a lot of ⁓ we try this we try this like it's like I think they've been doing it this way for For quite a while. They've had success with it and I was I was pretty blown away by that like Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Matt: We've already talked about sports in sports. There's all sorts of new offenses and there used to be the triple option and now there's RPO and we're spreading it out and speed in space and there's different ways to go about attacking offense for them. They're kind of like we're big, fast, strong, and we're just going to keep running it down your throat. And I thought that was there's something to that commitment ⁓ to their sales process that I thought was. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. Hmm. What were a few facets of their process that stood out, as far as what that looks like? Matt: Yeah. So they have like a lead calls in and they just immediately set up an appointment for the salesperson to go out there. And then it's on the salesperson to make contact with that customer beforehand. And then they can kind of do their own screening. From there, they go out to the house. They talk through the with the customer. And then from there, they have something called a case study. And at that point, again, please double check the podcast for me. I don't want to get my percentages wrong, but I want to say that it's like an estimated 1 % of the project total. will allow them to kind of put together a first pass proposal. And then from there, ⁓ if you like the first pass proposal, you like the price, you like what they've come up with, then they kind of dig into the next layer of it and you keep working your way toward basically completion from there. But very clearly laid out, very digestible, very clear for a homeowner to understand what the ⁓ deliverables are. They have forms and sheets for everything. Everything's really well documented and it's just been flushed out. Kyle Hunt: Hmm. So a couple couple things I heard there of like, you know, we have a process, but there's a little wiggle room in there for each salesperson to kind of do their own thing. But I'm guessing if I had 10 salespeople there, that all 10 of them would be able to ace pretty much the exact same description of this is this is how we work. Even that idea of they have a case study. If you're hearing that of going, ⁓ that's kind of clever. That's kind of probably a little bit of their ballpark range, a little bit of their free estimate, if you will. but they've kind of named it something that is unique. Consider that in your remodeling business, if you're listening to this, what could you name that, that would make sense of what it is, but also kind of be a little bit of intellectual property, a little bit of uniqueness to it. And what I'm also hearing there is, you know, there's definitely a point where, okay, if it's even, you said check the tape, but like if it's 1 % of the budget, that doesn't mean that they're making a ton of money on. the design development, but they do have that line in the sand that says, you know, they are, there's a moment of truth. We've got a budget range in front of you. Here are the next steps in the process. And they're writing that check or clicking on that button to pay that amount, which then, you know, we all know listening to this, that improves our closing percentage, but it's, it's very clear step by step. Anybody listening to this get, you cannot tire from this is how we work. And the thing you emphasize. this would be super clear. Like, if I'm a homeowner, I get it. It is clear. It's not sometimes it's this, sometimes it's that. It ranges from 1 to 4 percent. Well, it depends on this. That ambiguity and that is a hindrance. Wow, sorry Jenkins kids listening to this. Ask your dad for those definitions. Mr. Hunt is bringing, you told him Mr. Kyle, Mr. Kyle is bringing some big words, ambiguous, and whatever that other one I said. But it's very clear, it's very clear. So I can't emphasize that enough. think that should be a takeaway for people listening to this. Excellent. Moving on around the horn, tell me about the production side. Matt: Production side, they heavily rely on their project managers. ⁓ They get paid a percentage of gross profit. ⁓ Kyle Hunt: Stop. Tell me more about that. Did that jolt you a little bit of going, holy crap, the PM is getting paid based on gross profit? Matt: Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty neat and puts a lot of ownership and emphasis on those project managers being awesome. So during COVID, I know those, they said their project managers were making a lot of money, but they were also working their tails off. And I believe, I think it was Bruce who maybe said like the PM role is one of the most important roles in their, in their company. ⁓ And it really is. Yeah. They have an awesome sales process and that is definitely, again, very flushed out, but the PM, sounds like Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Matt: One one phrase that they use regularly was creative people do creative things and I think that when you get to their size, there's certainly a level of like you need to allow people to use their strengths and their abilities. And so I get the sense that the PM's all communicate maybe a little bit different and I get the sense that their jobs I asked the question, hey, if I did a job with one crew, but then I did a job with a different crew, would it still feel like a case job? Would it still feel the same? And they kind of chuckled and they're like, no, they're going to have very different feels. ⁓ But if we do a good job, customers are going to want that same PM back and that will have the same feel to it. ⁓ And so there was certainly like a ⁓ very clear high level of trust that was given to those PMs to run their jobs. They are responsible for hiring and firing their own crew members. They are responsible for if you want to have a two person crew, that's great. If you want to have an eight person crew, that's great. So they give them a ton of flexibility and freedom. to run basically their own mini business within the greater business. Kyle Hunt: Wow, so the PM as far as their compensation, it's majority more commission like revenue share base. Matt: I think it's, what I have jotted down at least is that it's basically all commission. They have a draw to kind of offset slower months, but it's all incentive based basically. Kyle Hunt: It's interesting. think anybody listening to this, idea of, know, if you can, right now, most people listening to this, whether it's their office or their field team, 90 plus percent of the compensation to your team member is some type of base or salary and maybe up to 10 % being commissioned. This isn't the first time I've heard it of, you know, if you really find the right people and you kind of mentioned like almost a business within a business, the idea of... Flipping that around where the majority is kind of commission-based revenue, know, profit, gross profit share can be an amazing way to incentivize and also to ⁓ really get some good profitability going. ⁓ I want you to mention a couple of other production. I kind of made a little, I wanted to go design team after sales process, because that would have been the logical move, but hit me with anything else production-wise, and then we're going to just scooch back to that design team learnings as well. Matt: No, think honestly, I think that was my biggest takeaway. mean, I could keep talking about it. think that's definitely the biggest takeaway was the structure, the trust and the way that they empower their guys. ⁓ Everything else, there was a lot of similarities between how we do a dust protection. There wasn't anything that blew my mind the way in which they go about installing stuff. was really like the structure was the big takeaway there. Kyle Hunt: You're you listen to Entrez leadership Dave Ramsey's little thing from time to time, don't you? Yeah, a lot of them are hate him, you know, whatever. He's got a lot of good stuff. I was listening to something the other day and they said to delegate something, you need two things to truly delegate something. One, you need competence and two, you need integrity. And that and that jumped off jumped out at me where actually my wife and I were in the car and I said, honey, send me an email with those two things, please. I want to remember that to delegate something, need competence. Matt: ⁓ yeah. Yep. Kyle Hunt: and integrity and kind of what you just described is like, yeah, we need a process. Yes, we need to understand how the production side works. But if I've got something, somebody with competence and integrity and I incentivize them around profitability, that combination can really work and reduce a lot of friction. Matt: Yeah, and they do. It's a highly sought after position. So they did training for their PMs and it was a I believe it was unpaid, but they did training at 7 a.m. and they started with either 12 guys that wanted to be part of this and it dwindled itself down. And there were a lot of fun tests and tricks throughout the process to see who would be able to basically stand out from the others. And so at least for me, that was something to that was pretty neat. We're like put something that put something out there that the guys are going to want. Kyle Hunt: Mm. Matt: that they're going to desire and make this something that not just, I have all this responsibility, but I get to have all of this responsibility. But man, I'm also really rewarded for the time and energy that I put into it ⁓ was. Yeah, it was was cool. So, yeah, they do a good job, I think, of finding the people they can trust and they're certainly competent. Kyle Hunt: I want it. Excellent. So I want to, want to circle back to design team and kind of the architect takeaway. I want to touch on that Fred division because that sounds kind of interesting. Also a little shout out to Bruce Case and the team over there for being so generous. One with the, the whole idea of the award is really, is really cool and great for our industry. And then the fact that they take the finalists and offer this opportunity for you to learn is very, very cool. So, uh, there's something for all of us to learn from that. Generosity is... Good, generosity is something we should emulate. Generosity is something that we should not tire from. Tell me about the design team. Matt: Design team is large. They were ⁓ half architects and then half ⁓ More so like I believe interior designers would be their title ⁓ They did a great job putting plans together that was a big big takeaway all of their quotes for the most part I believe are all plans like that We use job dread and we write a lot of words and we have a lot of templates which speeds that up But everything that they do is plan-based which blew my mind ⁓ So I thought that was cool and something to aspire toward They think that both customers and guys in the field will have a hard time reading things. And so they've really just tried to make everything plan based. And they said that that has been, it sounds like quite helpful in terms of minimizing mistakes. So demo plans and then framing, electrical plumbing, everybody's got a set of plans basically that they work off of. ⁓ Yeah. And then on the finish, I, had a very nice design studio. I think they try to help customers through that process. They're spending a lot of money and they're big, complicated jobs. get this, I get the sense that they are really trying to Kyle Hunt: Interesting. Matt: Simplify they're not showing them 50 different door samples. They're showing them a couple And so a lot of the the basic stuff that we do here in kitchen and bathroom modeling I think they were trying to make their bigger projects feel as simple as you're just doing a kitchen or you're just doing a Bathroom so simplification seemed to be something else that they were really striving for it. Yeah on the desired front Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Yeah, that's good for all of us to consider as we're walking people through the process. Is there a project, a client, a time and a place to bust open the big old Rolodex and book of all the different options for that railing, for this, for that? There probably is. At the same time, I think we err when we're walking people through the design and development process, I think we err towards perhaps showing them too many options and almost in a not kind way. of doing it and just overwhelming them. You have years of experience of products and styles and selections that have really resonated on the whole. And there's a lot of people that would love for you to present those three options and for them to pick it. Again, not a universal truth, but it's interesting how you've got a company over there that's of full-scaled size and there's some simplicity in what they're walking people through, obviously. the designer can juke and jive that as they read the client. Matt: Yeah, even even in their setup of the design studio, they had their doors almost tucked cabinet doors and they had racks of them and they probably had 50 to 100 of them back there and they had all of that kind of tucked away where a designer would purposely need to walk back there, grab the door that they like and then bring that out to the customer. They said if a customer wants to go back there and see everything, they certainly can, but they almost discourage it. And so I that was a neat emphasis and a neat way to go about almost hiding stuff from people so they don't Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Matt: they don't face and feel that overwhelm. Kyle Hunt: Jenkins children, if you are still listening to this, of all, congratulations. That was impressive. Matt: They're definitely, they're definitely toned up. They're not listening. Kyle Hunt: Or if you have fast forwarded to the 37 minute mark, congratulations. I have another prediction. We will see if it has come true. Your father on Tuesday, March 31st will throw caution to the wind and get crazy. You thought you were having a regular meal? ⁓ no, it is a dessert first dinner at the Jenkins house on Tuesday night, March 31st. That is my prediction. We will see. Matt: Far more likely. Kyle Hunt: if just like the Michigan Wolverines winning the national title, if that in fact happens. Moving on. How do feel about that? That was pretty creative, wasn't it? Matt: Yeah, we got one kid that really loves sugar. I feel like he probably heard you. He's in school right now. At least he should be in school. I feel like he heard. Kyle Hunt: Yeah, right, right. There's something he's in school right now and something he just something jolted something's in the air. He smells it. He smells that sugar. What's his name? You want to give him a shout out? Henry ⁓ Henry, is he the one that runs around like a wild banshee on the property? ⁓ I can't keep track of it. Okay. All right. Fair enough. ⁓ all right. This is going great. Love these takeaways. If I'm a remodeler listening to this, I'm happy if I'm a Jenkins kid, I'm happy. Matt: If he felt it, that's for sure. Henry. That's James. I know. Me neither. Kyle Hunt: Everything's good. And I'm happy and you're happy. ⁓ Fred division, talk about that. And then I got kind of a final question or two. Matt: Yeah, main takeaways on the Fred division. So I want to say that the Fred division does about $12 million a year was the number that they threw out. So that's large division and that does not go through their normal design build process. I believe that that is basically someone goes to the house, puts everything together in one shot and they might even be running with the job. Again, all of this is on their podcast. Feel free to double check me, but it was a much faster process than what their typical process is. Kyle Hunt: Yeah. Matt: ⁓ I believe that that is like lead carpenter model or whoever's at the job is you don't you don't have as many layers and they just simplify it basically, but it's still a lot of business to be doing 12 million dollars of that ⁓ so that is something that the the other thing I really liked about this was that they use this for their larger projects when their projects get done to just kind of do like home maintenance and warranty and I think if someone needs something small done Kyle Hunt: Hmm. Matt: there's a way to continue to help people that are already in your circle. So I thought that was a really cool way to stay connected to your current client. Sometimes we get calls and it just doesn't feel like it makes sense. And so we're very committed to staying in our niche and doing what we do, but it's kind like, man, I'd love to help these people that need some drywall repair. They just need this thing done in it. I at least feel conflict. So I thought that this was a great way to still be able to help and serve those people, but really have some clarity around it ⁓ where they're not competing against each other. Kyle Hunt: That's good. I think it's a tough nut to crack that idea of a handyman division. I think if you've got a nice established remodeling company, it comes up all the time in my coaching work is like, I think what do you think of maybe doing kind of a handyman division? And one thing that comes to mind for anybody listening to this, make sure your core business is rock solid, because you better make sure that baby is built up and solid and humming along before you add the complexity and the challenge of a handyman division. Matt: Thank Kyle Hunt: And there's some best practices of what you described. That person going out, especially for handyman work, better be somebody that can talk to the customer, that can quote things, that can sign off on things, that can do the work. They've got a pretty wide ability of different work. They collect the payment. A lot of that handyman work just is very much like a plumbing service technician experience of like you come out, you quote it, you do it, you collect on it. It just really simplifies things. And to your point, it can also be a... really great way to serve your existing clients and I like that warranty and the follow-up side of things. Matt: What's really interesting for them, I agree with everything that you're saying, but one thing that's really interesting for them is that it could be a $20,000 bathroom, which is not like a one day plumber's coming out to change out a hose bib thing. I don't fully understand the ins and outs, but I did find that very unique that it wasn't just drywall repair, it wasn't just painting a room. There's still some level, that's sizable project for some companies and they still morphed it down into one division. Kyle Hunt: Yeah. Sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah, super interesting. Matt: I think for most remodellers that are in this one to two to three to ten million dollar range, ⁓ to me I have a tendency to agree with you, like keeping it really small and keeping it in one person's umbrella seems to make the most sense to me. But they've been able to figure out a way to scale it to that. Kyle Hunt: What do they call it? The Fred division? Matt: ⁓ Fred was Bruce's father. Sounds like he passed away. And when we started talking about Fred, the room just lit up and there were tears shed. it sounds like Fred was just an outstanding guy. So he's still at the forefront. I believe that that is. there's a lot of mentioning of trying to keep his legacy going. And so I think that was a way to honor him is what I gathered. Kyle Hunt: Very cool. Very, very cool. So you ended up as a Fred Case Award finalist, had this great experience. So even if you didn't win, you would say this was amazing. ⁓ Did you end up winning? Matt: No, I didn't get to meet the winner either. ⁓ He's from California, I believe I got to meet Victor who's from Colorado and I forget the other ⁓ gal who was named but Victor and and in our company, we're the only we're the only two that were able to make it. So that was a bummer would have been great to hang out with the other folks is really cool that I mean, Victor got a lot of one on one time with the team. ⁓ So it was good. Kyle Hunt: Yeah. And how are you doing with not being somebody who likes to win and that's competitive? How are you handling the finalists? it's like the Grammy's or the Oscars. The Oscars were just on the other day and they got a camera on all five finalists and the one that doesn't get it, they still got to kind of smile through the golf claps. you... Matt: ⁓ I am very. Yeah, yeah. I'm very competitive. So I'm afraid that not everybody listening to this will know me and they're gonna think I'm a jerk if I but yeah, I'm competitive. like winning. ⁓ it was it was a bummer but I am. Yeah, yeah. And really the when we originally submitted for this, they again, their generosity is through the roof. The winner, I believe, receives $10,000. The finalists. Kyle Hunt: Well, luckily you still were a winner. Matt: get $2,500, which really is neat because they're basically paying for your travel at that point to fly you out. Our biggest thing was that we just wanted to go spend time with them and just learn from them and see what their operation looks like. It's cool to have a little article written, but really just the time. I would super encourage anybody still listening at this point. I think the biggest prerequisite is you need to be below 8 million. So they're trying to help smaller companies to see what it looks like to grow. so if anybody's interested like I think it's really cool and our initiatives were were fun, but I like I think they could be way simpler and there's lots of different ways that every everybody's innovating all the time. So I know everybody has initiative. So I would just encourage people to to to apply. Yeah, go spend time ⁓ with them and they would they would open you. Yeah. Welcome you with open arms and they'd be very gracious. I'm sure with with you too. Kyle Hunt: Mm-hmm. not be shy about it. Cool. You had written like their generosity, their desire to give back was just something that you guys were admiring and that you're kind of going, man, we got to keep seeking after that. Cool. Matt, that was excellent. Did that feel good? Anything else you want to share? Matt: Yes, sir. I don't think so. I don't think so, that was good. Kyle Hunt: Okay, ⁓ that was wonderful. If the Jenkins kids are still listening, here's how we're going to wrap this up. The favorite child of Matt Jenkins is the following. Go ahead and give the answer, Matt. Matt: my wife, Megan is my absolute favorite and I love spending time with her and she's my ride or die. So, Megan Jenkins, that was the question, right? Kyle Hunt: That was impeccably handled. I feel like I said it, I feel like kind of like I was a wingman because I set that up. I was hoping you were gonna go that, it's like we were on the same wavelength there. I kind of put you on the spot, I put you in a predicament and you, ⁓ Unlike when we played golf last, I teed you up and you just smacked at 300 yards, dead straight. ⁓ I could, I, ⁓ Matt: That's what you were hoping for. That's what you were hoping for when you tried to make me single out which of my kids was my favorite. Unbelievable. Kyle Hunt: knew I wasn't going to say anything, now I'm, ooh, the season's actually, ooh, actually, the competitive juices are flowing. Even though it's 20 degrees out and it's March 18th, spring will be here. So let the smack talking season commence. Did I mention, I ran my mouth at Gary Houghton, if you're listening to this, I'm coming for you. Mike Claudio, I'm coming for you too. I ran my mouth at the Ramado, your marriage, life and business about golf and. Matt: There you go. Yeah, in no time. Cool. Kyle Hunt: ⁓ During one of the breaks and he's in the VIP club was the first time I him in person. He comes up to me and he goes, so if you get in the car and head east and I get in the car and head west, we both drive four hours. He's in New Jersey. We both drive four hours and there's a golf course in Pennsylvania that we will be playing. And I'm thinking to myself, this is not good. This is not good. If he is proactively coming at me like this. And I said, what's your handicap? And he holds up one finger. Matt: Wow Kyle Hunt: And I go, Ruh-roh, we've got trouble, folks. Matt: If knew that he could drive four hours one direction, he'd land at a golf course. That tells you he knows his golf. Okay. All right. Kyle Hunt: He had already researched, he's like Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, okay, da ba da ba da ba da da ba ba da. So I need to actually keep my mouth shut about the golf side of things. His name is Gary Houghton. Matt: What was that guy's name? What was his name? Get him, Gary. Get him. Kyle Hunt: Somebody's got to, somebody's got to humble this guy over here. All right, man, thank you so much. We'll talk soon. That's it. Matt: you Thank you. See you.