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Integrating IFS & EMDR with Daphne Fatter, PhD. · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is Gamick
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Speaker 1: person I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to
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Speaker 1: helping those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank
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Speaker 1: you to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting
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Speaker 1: this show. So five four, three, two and one, our folks,
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Speaker 1: welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to have us.
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Speaker 1: My guest today, Doctor Daphnie Fatter Daphne, Welcome.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much guy, I'm so happy to be
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Speaker 2: here with you.
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Speaker 1: Awesome. Daphnie is a licensed psychologist, author, and international speaker
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Speaker 1: known for her work integrating EMDR and Internal Family Systems Therapy.
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Speaker 1: She wrote Integrating EMDR and Internal Family Systems Therapy and
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Speaker 1: has over twenty years of EMDR experience. She's completed more
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Speaker 1: than four hundred and sixty hours of IFS training, including
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Speaker 1: work with IFS founder doctor Schwartz, and also practices ancestral
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Speaker 1: healing shar Intermasters from NUOPA and her doctorate from Penn State.
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Speaker 1: Then completed a post doc fellowship at the Trauma Center
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Speaker 1: under doctor bessel Bender Colech. Daphane previously served as Military
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Speaker 1: Sexual Trauma Coordinator at the Fort WORTHBA has published on
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Speaker 1: trauma and ifs. It now teaches clinicians worldwide, worldwide, while
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Speaker 1: maintaining a private practice in Dallas.
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Speaker 3: A lot of amazing experience. Daphne, Damn, thank you, Wow,
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Speaker 3: sleep much. All right, obviously just you in a nutshell.
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Speaker 3: But before we get going, share with the listeners where
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Speaker 3: you're from originally and where you are currently.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm actually originally from Dallas, Texas. And
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Speaker 2: then I moved away right after college. And then I
1:43
Speaker 2: came back when I had I had my children that
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Speaker 2: came back to be closer to grandparents that could offer
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Speaker 2: wonderful free childcare, which is a blessing. And yeah, so
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Speaker 2: I'm back to my hometown at Dallas.
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Speaker 1: Awesome. Awesome. So how did this journey, this whole thing
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Speaker 1: start for you?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I after college, I tried a career,
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Speaker 2: believe it or not, in the tech industry. I was
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Speaker 2: a technical recruiter right during the Internet boom. I mean,
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Speaker 2: this is back in the nineties. This is dating me
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Speaker 2: a little bit. But and then I felt pulled to
2:23
Speaker 2: leave corporate America. I was like, yeah, I can't do this,
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Speaker 2: this is this is not my gig. And so I
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Speaker 2: actually went on a journey, I really felt pulled to
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Speaker 2: study Buddhism, so I actually stayed in a monastery in
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Speaker 2: Thailand for a little while. I lived in Thailand for
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Speaker 2: about a year really intensely studied Buddhist and Datist practices,
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Speaker 2: and then I came back to the States started doing
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Speaker 2: mindfulness groups. And this is back you know early, you know,
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Speaker 2: this is like two thousand and one before mindfulness really
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Speaker 2: hit the United States in terms of becoming an evidence
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Speaker 2: based practice. And when I was guiding people and mindfulness practices,
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Speaker 2: I had two of the people in my group have
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Speaker 2: trauma responses, and I felt, I mean, one of them
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Speaker 2: had a panic attack, the other one had specific trauma
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Speaker 2: memories that were previously unconscious come up. And so I
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Speaker 2: felt cold that it's like, okay, if I want to
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Speaker 2: continue to even you know, explore this with people in
3:27
Speaker 2: terms of mindfulness, I need to become a therapist. So
3:30
Speaker 2: that's when I went and got my master's and then
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Speaker 2: went and got my PhD. And then just have since
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Speaker 2: then been a trauma therapist, really focusing on trauma.
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Speaker 1: So you do the corporate thing and then you just
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Speaker 1: don't start taking courses or start reading some books you
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Speaker 1: go to Thailand and you dive in. Talk to me
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Speaker 1: about that a little bit. How do you decide to
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Speaker 1: do that?
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Speaker 2: You know? It was I'm a little bit of an
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Speaker 2: all or nothing person in terms of my parts, if
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Speaker 2: you will, Like I'm all in when I do things,
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Speaker 2: and so I really it's interesting. I went back to
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Speaker 2: I went back to school after I left Corporate American,
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Speaker 2: and I got my teaching certificate to teach English is
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Speaker 2: just a second language. So I knew I would be,
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Speaker 2: you know, teaching English somewhere where, you know, in a
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Speaker 2: country that does not where that's not the primary language.
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Speaker 2: So I knew I could, you know, work et cetera,
4:30
Speaker 2: et cetera. And I read a book. I was visiting
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Speaker 2: a friend in New York, and I read a book
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Speaker 2: on the bus from Boston to New York City about
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Speaker 2: all the places that at that time that you could
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Speaker 2: go teach English as a second language and like earn
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Speaker 2: a living enough to feed yourself. And Thailand. There's just
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Speaker 2: this little description of changing my Thailand, which is in
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Speaker 2: northern Thailand, like a three or four sentence paragraph, and
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Speaker 2: I was like, that's where I want to go. Oh yeah,
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Speaker 2: I mean it was a different time in my life.
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Speaker 2: I was in my twenties, and you know, I had
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Speaker 2: a friend that went with me, like we we started
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Speaker 2: out together. She ended up going to Vietnam and lived there,
5:12
Speaker 2: and I but we bought a one way ticket to
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Speaker 2: Singapore and traveled through Southeast Asia and I ended up
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Speaker 2: in Chang Mai and and lived there and and and
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Speaker 2: was a tutor for you know, uh, to teach English.
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Speaker 2: And yeah, it was a it was a really amazing
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Speaker 2: and very transformational time in my life, you know, yeah,
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Speaker 2: I bet yeah.
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Speaker 1: And then you had this experience while you're teaching mindfulness
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Speaker 1: with these individuals and again you know, you're you're you
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Speaker 1: said yourself, oh my god, I gotta learn more about this. Well,
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Speaker 1: talk to me about that. I mean, trauma is however,
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Speaker 1: will you slice it? It's intense, but you're diving intense.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, Well, and it was very obvious. And I
5:58
Speaker 2: had no true I mean, I have as a psychology
6:00
Speaker 2: major in college, but other than that, I had no
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Speaker 2: trauma training. Of course, I was just a you know,
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Speaker 2: civilian offering a mindfulness group. And yeah, I intuitively it's
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Speaker 2: like this is trauma based. It just was felt very understandable.
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Speaker 2: I just knew that intuitively, and just also felt like, okay, ethically,
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Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I could continue teaching, you know,
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Speaker 2: or offering a mindfulness group unless I had training on
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Speaker 2: what to do to know that I wasn't going to
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Speaker 2: cause harm, you know, and just knew how to navigate that.
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Speaker 2: And that's when I went, you know, I went to NAROPA,
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Speaker 2: which happens to be a very mindfulness based master's program.
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Speaker 2: So it's all about mindfulness practices. So it was a
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Speaker 2: good fit for me.
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Speaker 1: To do the masters there. At some point, you're like,
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Speaker 1: all right, I'm going I'm not stopping. I'm full and
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Speaker 1: yeah doing the PhD.
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Speaker 2: Did the pH D?
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Speaker 1: Yeah okay? Where and you did that at Penn State?
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Speaker 2: I did?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay? And what was that like for you? Well?
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Speaker 1: And again hang on, so again, were you thinking trauma
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Speaker 1: at that point or what you were? Okay?
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Speaker 2: I knew. I mean, I was already in my master's program.
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Speaker 2: I was already I became m DR trained as a
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Speaker 2: master level clinician. Like during my master's program, I got
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Speaker 2: em DR trained, so you know, I knew how to
7:25
Speaker 2: provide a EMDR. I was I was a crisis counselor
7:29
Speaker 2: volunteer for a sexual assault hotline in Boulder County and Colorado.
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Speaker 2: So I was getting clinical experience in training during my
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Speaker 2: master's program, but I wanted more. To be honest, I
7:40
Speaker 2: wanted more, and so I initially went to Penn State
7:43
Speaker 2: and I studied it was a bit about mindfulness. So
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Speaker 2: I did my dissertation on therapist to practice mindfulness and
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Speaker 2: this was a while ago, and studied that and and
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Speaker 2: then wanted more in depth trauma training and that's how I,
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Speaker 2: you know, started working with doctor vaner Kolk.
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Speaker 1: So your dissertation you said therapists who practice mindfulness. So
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Speaker 1: was it like the efficacy of them.
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Speaker 2: Or what it was looking at the relationship between self
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Speaker 2: differentiation Bowen's concept of self differentiation or differentiation of self,
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Speaker 2: counter transference management, and practice of mindfulness. So we found
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Speaker 2: that therapists who practice mindfulness were able to better manage
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Speaker 2: their counter transference reactions. It was a correlational study, and
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Speaker 2: were more self differentiated. And this is before I became
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Speaker 2: an internal family systems therapist, which is all about self differentiation.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so obviously, I mean you wrote a book
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Speaker 1: on that. How did you start getting into that into ifs?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So in graduate school, I actually had the privilege
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Speaker 2: of going to doing my own work with an IFS
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Speaker 2: therapist excuse me. And so I found it as a
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Speaker 2: client just to be so helpful and transformational, and so
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Speaker 2: I decided to pursue my own training with IFS Institute
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Speaker 2: and uh, really just dive dive in.
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Speaker 1: Do you want to take a pause here and take
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Speaker 1: a drink of water?
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Speaker 3: Yes?
9:26
Speaker 1: Thanks, Yeah, we're not live, so don't worry about it.
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Speaker 1: That's happened to me before. I'm like, stop, Yeah, I.
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Speaker 2: Think it's just seeing. You know, I've seen clients today
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Speaker 2: and done a lot of talking.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, no worries, thank you. Yeah, of course.
9:45
Speaker 2: You were so easy to talk to.
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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, well you're talking. I'm not doing the dog.
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Speaker 2: You're very good moderators.
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Speaker 1: That's my that's my trick, all right, So five four
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Speaker 1: three two one we'll start again. So all right, you
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Speaker 1: you you get into this IFS as a client. What
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Speaker 1: did you find helpful about it? What? What? What rang
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Speaker 1: true to you?
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Speaker 2: You know, it surprised me how deep it went. I mean,
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Speaker 2: it just it was I'm an experiential person in terms
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Speaker 2: of I learn experientially. Just that's my learning style, and
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Speaker 2: so for me to be able to learn how to
10:32
Speaker 2: relate to different parts of myself and to really understand
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Speaker 2: them and develop you know, compassion for them and really
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Speaker 2: have that relationship of understanding, Okay, what are my parts
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Speaker 2: carrying around? You know, specific things I've lived through for example.
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Speaker 2: It was Honestly, it was so transformational. It was so
10:54
Speaker 2: transformational for me. Yeah, I mean, and I am just
10:56
Speaker 2: a big a fan as EMDR, so I could say
10:58
Speaker 2: the same thing about a EMDR too. That's why I'm
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Speaker 2: you know, I love both of these equally. I'm passionate
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Speaker 2: about both of these types of therapy.
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Speaker 1: So as you were having these experiences defnely the Masters
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Speaker 1: the PhD, was stuff coming up for you personally?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, I mean, I uh yeah, I mean it was.
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Speaker 2: I'm grateful. You know, just a lot of stress in
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Speaker 2: grad school of course, especially to doctorate program, lots and
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Speaker 2: lots of stress. So yes, things were coming up for
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Speaker 2: me and things that I you know, I got to
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Speaker 2: know from my IFS therapy. I got to know, you know,
11:41
Speaker 2: specific parts that we're carrying beliefs and burdens from from
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Speaker 2: the past, you know, ultimately related to more of my
11:48
Speaker 2: childhood that I had no idea that I was more
11:51
Speaker 2: influencing me.
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Speaker 1: So much, you know, such as what.
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Speaker 2: I would say, it's I've had a lot of MD
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Speaker 2: OR and IFS therapy at this point, so having to
12:06
Speaker 2: remember now such as gosh, at that time in my
12:11
Speaker 2: life and this was a while ago, I think, just
12:13
Speaker 2: not having confidence in myself. And ultimately, I mean to
12:17
Speaker 2: be honest, I realized through my IFS therapy that I
12:21
Speaker 2: pursued my PhD because I have dyslexia, okay, And that
12:25
Speaker 2: really was a childhood that created such a childhood wounding
12:31
Speaker 2: because you know, I grew up in the eighties where
12:33
Speaker 2: people didn't know a lot about dyslexia. It was very stigmatized.
12:38
Speaker 2: And so I really got my PhD. I had an
12:41
Speaker 2: exile using IFS language. I had an exile that really
12:45
Speaker 2: believed that she was not good enough. And that really
12:48
Speaker 2: is what drove me to get my PhD, to kind
12:50
Speaker 2: of prove to myself that I could do it. And
12:54
Speaker 2: that part has since received healing in IFS and now
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Speaker 2: now I do things because I it's much more you know,
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Speaker 2: it have choices right, and I can check myself and
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Speaker 2: be like, yeah, that's not coming from that part's healed
13:06
Speaker 2: like that's.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can totally relate to that. I
13:10
Speaker 1: had a similar, similar experience, something that pushed me, pulled
13:18
Speaker 1: me to pursue that track as well. So all right,
13:24
Speaker 1: let's talk about the book. Yeah, yes, how the book
13:28
Speaker 1: come about?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the book came out of I initially wrote a
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Speaker 2: chapter on this topic on integrating em D R and IFS,
13:38
Speaker 2: and then it was so well received that I and
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Speaker 2: I spoke at it. I spoke on the chapter at
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Speaker 2: the IFS conference. I also have since spoken at it
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Speaker 2: recently at the MDREA conference. And it's just so helpful
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Speaker 2: to integrate these two models. So really the book is
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Speaker 2: a step by step god specifically really working with people
14:02
Speaker 2: with complex trauma histories, because you know, EMDR standard protocol
14:08
Speaker 2: doesn't fit everyone, So integrating IFS to really work with
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Speaker 2: protector fears, to really get consent internally of the protective
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Speaker 2: system of the client prior to doing EMDR reprocessing can
14:24
Speaker 2: be wonderful. Right. It can really open the doors in
14:27
Speaker 2: terms of access to em DR to help it feel
14:30
Speaker 2: more tolerable for the client and to integrate therapeutic gains.
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Speaker 1: So for those listeners who are familiar with the m
14:39
Speaker 1: d R or maybe who aren't. How do you how
14:45
Speaker 1: literally how do you work? Because with EMDR you're doing
14:49
Speaker 1: the back and forth thing, so obviously simulation, Yeah, are
14:53
Speaker 1: you doing this it sequentially MDR? How do you integrate it?
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Speaker 1: How specifically?
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Speaker 2: Sure? So the integration really happens with bringing in internal
15:04
Speaker 2: family systems very early in the therapy, very early in
15:09
Speaker 2: to what we call phase one in phase two a VMDR.
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Speaker 2: So phase one and phase two are all about preparing
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Speaker 2: the client, resourcing the client to get ready to do
15:16
Speaker 2: trauma reprocessing with EMDR. So this is bringing in internal
15:21
Speaker 2: family systems therapy right away to help stabilize the client,
15:25
Speaker 2: help the client become more conscious of their parts, their protectors,
15:30
Speaker 2: and to really get consent of the protective system. So
15:34
Speaker 2: it's integrating them right away with the framework of we
15:38
Speaker 2: are within EMDR therapy, we're bringing in IFS interventions to
15:43
Speaker 2: help stabilize the client, support the client to help them
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Speaker 2: have better results for EMDR reprocessing.
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Speaker 1: Can you I want to put you on the spot here,
15:53
Speaker 1: but this is what makes us so exciting. Can you
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Speaker 1: give us an example of what this might have looked
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Speaker 1: like when you're working with a client.
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Speaker 2: Sure, yes, absolutely, So I'll use a case example, right
16:08
Speaker 2: that's completely made up. Okay, this is not a real person.
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Speaker 2: But let's say you're working with somebody with you know,
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Speaker 2: childhood trauma. Okay, it could be neglect, could be physical abuse,
16:22
Speaker 2: could be sexual abuse, could be all the bad things
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Speaker 2: that can happen unfortunately. And so this is guiding a
16:29
Speaker 2: client to first become conscious of what parts of them,
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Speaker 2: what protector parts do they have in their system that
16:36
Speaker 2: have been trying to help them protect the wounds from
16:41
Speaker 2: the trauma. So we make the protectors conscious those protective
16:45
Speaker 2: parts highly likely or showing up already in the form
16:48
Speaker 2: of clinical symptomology. So that's where we start. If a
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Speaker 2: client is has a treatment goal, if I want to
16:53
Speaker 2: decrease my anxiety and I want to do trauma therapy
16:56
Speaker 2: on these horrendous childhood traumas I've lived through, Okay, let's
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Speaker 2: get to know those anxious parts first. Let's get to
17:03
Speaker 2: know get everybody's permission, right, all the parts that try
17:07
Speaker 2: to help you function, All the parts that may try
17:11
Speaker 2: to do self soothing in ways that may or may
17:13
Speaker 2: not be helpful. Those will be the firefighter parts. So
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Speaker 2: let's get to know those protectors first, really make them conscious.
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Speaker 2: When they become conscious and the client moves into direct
17:25
Speaker 2: relationship with then that stabilizes the client because those protector
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Speaker 2: parts don't have to work so hard, right, So everyone
17:34
Speaker 2: working already as a team, the client's authentic self as
17:37
Speaker 2: well as the protectors, and then we can get consent,
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Speaker 2: ask the system, hey, are we all in agreement here?
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Speaker 2: We're going to do trauma EMDR reprocessing on these traumas.
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Speaker 2: Is everybody on board with that? So it makes it
17:53
Speaker 2: much more conscious rather than jumping into the deep end
17:56
Speaker 2: with em DR reprocessing without being aware of all the
18:00
Speaker 2: those things, all those dynamics in terms.
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Speaker 1: And what would that mean if someone if you had
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Speaker 1: if you weren't integrating ifs sure?
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Speaker 2: So what can happen? And again I love EMDR right,
18:14
Speaker 2: so this is with you know, this is just sometimes
18:17
Speaker 2: it's going to happen in EMDR where a client. The
18:20
Speaker 2: thing about EMDR standard protocol is that I'm going to
18:23
Speaker 2: pretend and this goes to Francine Shapiro here, I'm going
18:26
Speaker 2: to pretend my hand is a memory network. Okay. In EMDR,
18:29
Speaker 2: you're starting at one part of your hand when part
18:32
Speaker 2: of this memory network and you literally it will go
18:35
Speaker 2: into those associative channels through EMDR, and so you can't
18:40
Speaker 2: guarantee where you're going to go with a client. The
18:43
Speaker 2: client may not know some of their trauma, they may
18:46
Speaker 2: not have conscious memories of them, but they might be
18:48
Speaker 2: in the implicit memory, the unconscious. So without doing ifs,
18:53
Speaker 2: it's much more likely for EMDR to be very intense
18:57
Speaker 2: and the client doesn't understand sort of even the parts
19:01
Speaker 2: that might come up in reprocessing. So this is helping,
19:05
Speaker 2: but prior to starting reprocessing, this is helping be aware
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Speaker 2: of Wow, wait, let's get to know this protector part
19:13
Speaker 2: that's showing up in present day here on the memory network.
19:16
Speaker 2: Let's ask that part how old does it think you are?
19:19
Speaker 2: How long has it been in this job to trying
19:22
Speaker 2: to help you? And it's like, oh, I've been there
19:24
Speaker 2: since you were three, And it's like, okay, we actually
19:26
Speaker 2: know not only is it showing up now present day,
19:30
Speaker 2: but there's actually probably a lot of memories between now
19:34
Speaker 2: and when you were three that your system knows about.
19:37
Speaker 2: And even that awareness can make AMDR more accessible and
19:41
Speaker 2: more successful, right because clients have that consciousness and that
19:46
Speaker 2: insight prior to reprocessing the memory.
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Speaker 1: It got it. Thank you for sharing that. Let me
19:53
Speaker 1: just remind me everyone, I'm speaking with doctor Daphnie Fatter.
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Speaker 1: Her book is called Integrating em DR, an Internal Family
20:00
Speaker 1: a Systems Therapy. All right, So not surprisingly, in addition
20:06
Speaker 1: to the book, you're also you've got trainings, You've got courses. Uh,
20:12
Speaker 1: talk to us about that. What are you offering? Who
20:14
Speaker 1: you are? First of all, who's the book for.
20:18
Speaker 2: The book is for therapists.
20:19
Speaker 1: That's a good question.
20:20
Speaker 2: So the book is to help empower therapists that provide
20:25
Speaker 2: trauma training. Obviously, to do AMDR you need AMDR training.
20:30
Speaker 2: In an ideal world, you also need IFS training. Okay.
20:33
Speaker 2: So in terms of integration, there's this ethical piece of
20:36
Speaker 2: having some exposure and experience to both models, particularly you know,
20:41
Speaker 2: really both of them right to have some level of confidence.
20:43
Speaker 2: But what I find is that even when therapists are
20:46
Speaker 2: trained in both models, they don't know how to integrate.
20:49
Speaker 2: And this is what these are literally like a step
20:52
Speaker 2: by step there's scripts, there's worksheets, there's case conceptualization opportunities,
20:57
Speaker 2: so that therapists can literally take my book and say like, okay,
21:01
Speaker 2: I'm in phase two. How do I do this? So
21:04
Speaker 2: it's very practical, O questions?
21:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So let's talk about some of your trainings.
21:12
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure. So I offer experiential trainings and integration really
21:20
Speaker 2: on the how to, so I give clinicians an opportunity
21:23
Speaker 2: to actually practice some of the techniques in terms of
21:28
Speaker 2: trying to integrate these two models and being really clear
21:31
Speaker 2: about what we're doing, why we're doing it, when we're
21:35
Speaker 2: working with clients, what's the clinical goal of each intervention?
21:38
Speaker 1: Okay? And these are virtual or a person or both.
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Speaker 2: I do them largely virtual, but I can I also
21:48
Speaker 2: meet with groups and group practices and lots of associations,
21:53
Speaker 2: you know, to be able to offer this in person
21:56
Speaker 2: as well.
21:57
Speaker 1: Okay, But you also have other trainings too, I do, Yes,
22:01
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of other trainings. Which are I do.
22:04
Speaker 1: I was kind of struck intrigued by the specificity of
22:11
Speaker 1: the titles. Talk to us about some of them.
22:13
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean I also offered trainings on stabilization tools,
22:18
Speaker 2: because there are very much neuroscience based informed by polyvagel theory,
22:25
Speaker 2: informed by what we know about the brain and the
22:27
Speaker 2: results of traumatic stress exposure. Because oftentimes you know, in
22:32
Speaker 2: graduate school we aren't learning some of those practical skills
22:35
Speaker 2: in terms of trauma informed treatment or even things like
22:40
Speaker 2: very helpful coping skills depending on what state of arousal
22:43
Speaker 2: the client is in, whether they're in hyper arousal or
22:46
Speaker 2: hypo arousal. So, yes, I do intensive trainings on stabilization tools.
22:52
Speaker 2: I also do trainings on trauma treatment.
22:57
Speaker 1: And are your trainings for licensed therapists solely or coaches?
23:03
Speaker 1: You do coaches or what?
23:05
Speaker 2: Yeah? Great question? So I really work with licensed therapists. Yeah, okay,
23:10
Speaker 2: it's I have done some workshops where coaches were invited,
23:16
Speaker 2: but it's more really for the trauma tools in terms
23:19
Speaker 2: of going over even like diagnosis and assessment tools for
23:23
Speaker 2: complex PTSD for example, those are more for licensed clinicians
23:27
Speaker 2: or you know, doctoral students or people working on their
23:30
Speaker 2: licensing hours.
23:32
Speaker 1: So I mean, with all your experience, what do you feel, Daphney,
23:38
Speaker 1: that allows you to continue to do this work. Again,
23:43
Speaker 1: we've talked about, you know, trauma. To me, it's you know,
23:52
Speaker 1: I'm listening to this all the time. I'm hearing about
23:56
Speaker 1: trauma all the time, and it just it's it's no
24:00
Speaker 1: getting around it, you know, you're talking about people's oftentimes
24:04
Speaker 1: horrific experiences. How have you managed to continue to do
24:09
Speaker 1: this work and what do you feel allows you to
24:11
Speaker 1: do it? Well?
24:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. You know what keeps me, what helps
24:18
Speaker 2: me be as you know, sustained in this field as
24:21
Speaker 2: a trauma therapist is honestly connecting with other therapists. I
24:24
Speaker 2: find one of the things I love about being able
24:27
Speaker 2: to teach workshops and courses and things like that are
24:30
Speaker 2: I have been so inspired because people are therapists are
24:35
Speaker 2: so dedicated to want to help their clients and they
24:38
Speaker 2: want to understand, they want more tools, they want they
24:41
Speaker 2: you know, they bring, you know, such horrific histories with
24:45
Speaker 2: with clients that they're working with, and they're trying so
24:47
Speaker 2: hard to show up and help them in a way
24:51
Speaker 2: that's you know, mindful and ethical and kind and healing
24:55
Speaker 2: to the clients. So one of the things that helps
24:59
Speaker 2: me is being inspired, you know, really being inspired by
25:03
Speaker 2: therapists continuing to show up every single day for their
25:06
Speaker 2: clients no matter what, and being so dedicated. So I'm
25:10
Speaker 2: inspired by my fellow colleagues, I think for me also,
25:14
Speaker 2: you know, using IFS internal family systems therapy as a
25:19
Speaker 2: tool to help me better understand who's doing the therapy
25:24
Speaker 2: right in my own system, Because if I have a
25:27
Speaker 2: therapist part working so hard and taking on the client's
25:30
Speaker 2: energy as a highly instive person myself, that's not sustainable, right.
25:35
Speaker 2: I have to be really mindful of, Oh, there's my
25:39
Speaker 2: part that wants to caretake, there's my part that wants
25:42
Speaker 2: to take the pain away from the client, and that
25:44
Speaker 2: is not possible, right, that's you know, that's not helpful
25:47
Speaker 2: per se to their healing. And so I've had to
25:50
Speaker 2: really get to know my own system in terms of
25:53
Speaker 2: what parts of my own system are really showing up,
25:56
Speaker 2: and for me to actually, yeah, be aware of that
25:58
Speaker 2: has been helpful.
26:00
Speaker 1: So interest say, I've never heard put that with like
26:02
Speaker 1: who's doing the therapy. Just to even be aware of that.
26:06
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, my internal family systems is so helpful for
26:11
Speaker 2: therapist self care in terms of counter transference and in
26:13
Speaker 2: terms of working with parts that show up. I mean,
26:17
Speaker 2: just to be able to bear witness to the reality
26:20
Speaker 2: of suffering that our clients have lived through. It does
26:24
Speaker 2: take stamina, and it's you know, burnout is real, Vicarious
26:28
Speaker 2: trauma is real. I've experienced prior to my career, I've
26:32
Speaker 2: experienced very real vicarious trauma symptoms. So I mean it's
26:37
Speaker 2: you know, self care is it's a really an ethical imperative,
26:41
Speaker 2: right for us? It's drama therapists.
26:44
Speaker 1: What do you recommend? As we kind of wind down here,
26:46
Speaker 1: what do you recommend for people? I mean, you've had, again,
26:51
Speaker 1: an inspiring variety of experience, But for people who want
26:57
Speaker 1: to learn more about TRUMPA where do you start? Where
27:00
Speaker 1: does someone start?
27:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question, I honestly, I mean, I
27:06
Speaker 2: do think podcasts are helpful for people don't learn about trauma.
27:10
Speaker 2: And when you ask that question, you're talking mainly about
27:12
Speaker 2: clients learning about trauma or therapists.
27:16
Speaker 1: Well, let's a therapist.
27:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. I you know, of course
27:23
Speaker 2: I'm going to recommend doctor Besseilvana Quoke's book The Body
27:26
Speaker 2: Keeps the Score is sort of a classic. I honestly,
27:29
Speaker 2: I find Gebormtte's work very accessible because it's so personal,
27:35
Speaker 2: it's so raw, there's so much humility rather than it
27:39
Speaker 2: being like an academic ind and it explains a lot.
27:44
Speaker 2: I think he brings in so much of the science
27:47
Speaker 2: that's so helpful. Br Bruce Perry's work. I mean, I
27:50
Speaker 2: think that you know, is also very accessible and helpful
27:55
Speaker 2: for people to get a snapshot, you know, of what's
27:59
Speaker 2: happening as a result of trauma.
28:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, all right, Daphane, how do people learn more
28:05
Speaker 1: about you? Learn more about your book, The Trainings, et cetera.
28:09
Speaker 2: Absolutely so. My my book is on anywhere where you
28:14
Speaker 2: can buy books, okay, including Amazon of course, and so
28:18
Speaker 2: you can buy that online and we're in a bookstore.
28:22
Speaker 2: In terms of finding me, you can go to my website,
28:25
Speaker 2: which is Daphne Fatter f isn't frank A T T E.
28:29
Speaker 2: R pH D dot com.
28:31
Speaker 1: Okay, and we'll have all that linked up here at
28:33
Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Daphne,
28:37
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it. Very inspiring.
28:42
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much. Guy. It's wonderful to
28:44
Speaker 2: see you.
28:45
Speaker 1: All right. Take care, okay, take care