Latest / Start Your Comeback: Rebuilding after Divorce, Empty Nest, and Loss of Spouse / From Stuck to Thriving: Relationship Wisdom with Dr. Merideth Thompson

Transcript

From Stuck to Thriving: Relationship Wisdom with Dr. Merideth Thompson · Start Your Comeback: Rebuilding after Divorce, Empty Nest, and Loss of Spouse

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a major life transition pinching you?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: I know you may be asking, what's next?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: What's my purpose?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: What if?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've asked those two.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Start Your Comeback Podcast.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Tony Thrash, a certified life coach, and I want to share the tools and practical steps to help you create a winning game plan to move into your new adventure.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Today my guest is Dr.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Meredith Thompson.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: She is a social scientist who prefers the real world, a negotiation guru, and a data nerd, and an entrepreneurial athlete.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: She's equipped with a PhD in organizational behavior, in other words, the touchy-feely stuff of organizations, living way too long in an unhealthy relationship and a relentless fire to help others freaking love their lives.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: She launched Partner Lab to empower individuals with the knowledge and skills needed to make informed decisions about their personal lives.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Partner Lab is the synthesis of her life and career, having a tech role at Deloitte in her early career, then building a teaching and research portfolio in higher education, and then pursuing entrepreneurship as a coach and startup founder.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: She's uniquely qualified to help people get unstuck in their romantic relationship as well as in their careers, and we know one impacts the other.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: She absolutely loves the lives that she's built over the last decade, and she wants to help others experience the same exhilaration at the life they get to live.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Meredith.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for joining me today on the Start Your Comeback podcast.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so grateful that you're here.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you give a little bit of an introduction and tell folks about who you are and what kind of what you do?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think first and foremost, um, I describe myself as a data nerd.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: I am a researcher, is my anchor job at a university, and I love getting data and I love using data to make decisions.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: It it I'm kind of a dork that way.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um I teach negotiation, so I love helping people figure out how to solve conflict better and improve their relationships.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also describe myself as a singing skier.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I love to downhill ski.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like my nirvana.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you will catch me.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not real loudly.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't sing too loudly, hopefully, when somebody is listening.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: But if I've got the Hamilton um soundtrack going, you know, I'm gonna be singing.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's me in a tiny nutshell.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: I love that so much.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't sing because I'm horribly off key, but that's a story for another day.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: You and I talked briefly before we hit record, but we sort of have similar um backgrounds.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I kind of wanted to just start there and see uh if you can um help my listeners out by what you've learned and and how you've handled those kinds of things.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: So you stayed in a relationship that you knew wasn't working for over a decade.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: I was five years, you were a decade.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um what kept you there?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then what was the thing that finally shifted for you?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: There were several things that shifted, but I think the things that kept me there and the things that helped me kind of get clarity about like, oh, I it's time to bring this relationship to a close were my children.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was raised in a and for much of my life spent time in a relatively high demand religion where you don't divorce, it's bad for the kids.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I was kind of aware of the research on, you know, it's better for kids if if the marriage is high conflict for the parents divorced, because hopefully two happy, well-adjusted parents separately is better than two parents fighting all the time.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I wouldn't describe my first marriage as super high conflict.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't think I would have described it that way then, but the moment of just stunning clarity for me is I was standing in the middle of my kitchen and I realized after an interaction with my then spouse that my sons, who were 14 and 19, were learning just heinously um destructive, toxic relationship dynamics and interactions.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I had just had this moment where it was like, oh my gosh, Meredith, your boys are either learning that it's okay for a partner to treat them this way, or it's okay for them to treat a partner this way.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Either way, that's a deal breaker.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so really it was my children that kept me there, but it was also my children that helped me see it was it was time to go.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's uh a very important statement because I think that was the same reason for me.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: I stayed because of my boys, and then I was married for 25 years, and and I left when I got divorced, it was all of a sudden I'm divorced and an empty nester because they were, you know, college age.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it was, I understand that, and it's it's such a hard thing.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: And like you, I just felt this tremendous amount of guilt that I was letting God down because you know, that's I grew up that way.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, I was like, but this can't stay, it can't continue.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate you sharing.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you sharing that.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, how did you um how did you approach single life then?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm still single 12 years later, and I I we may need to have a one-on-one after this, but totally.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: What were your feelings and how how did you manage all of that going into single life?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I had this, there was a moment also right about the time I ended my marriage where my my spouse at the time realized how serious I was this time.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: I tried to leave before and I just could not follow through.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Guilt, children, things like that.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he said, you know, um, who who do you no, you're not gonna find anybody who will love you as much as I do.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I just had this moment where I thought, oh my gosh, I would rather be by myself the rest of my life than stay in this relationship.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a lot of clarity in that.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and just, you know, from that, I hadn't, to be frank, I had not dated since high school.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: We have been high school sweethearts.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I was getting on you two, I was getting on the apps.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea what I was doing.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And after a number of hard pass first dates after being on the apps, I a friend pointed me to this dating class that the extension program at Utah State University offers.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of figured out like how to date safely, smartly, strategically.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually, I developed a list after those hard passes.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, Meredith, like, what are you doing?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: What are you looking for?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: What's your goal?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think on the front end, my goal was to have fun and just like figure out what all this is about.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, this is these people, some of these people like we're not a good fit, and this is wasting my time and it's wasting their time.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started a list and I think it got to like 20 or 21 things, things I was looking for in a partner in a relationship.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't the garbage about he's got to be six, five and blue eyes and a bro in finance, all that nonsense.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was can can have um is willing to be accountable, you know, during a conflict and a relationship or really likes to travel.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: I love to travel.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's I don't live in a big house.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's 1,500 square feet, but you put money to travel, yes, I will do that.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's things like that that um, you know, also talk about a person's character and what their interests are and hoping that mine would align.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I will say I did find my partner.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've been together a little over nine years.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: I found him on match.com.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it was kind of an interesting story that we learned uh like a year and a half after we were dating.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when I started dating, I had all my friends like telling me how to do it and what I should be looking for, and you know, all these things.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, I felt overwhelmed.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: But several of them were like, Meredith, you cannot put on there, you know, that you're a professor or you have a PhD.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna scare them away, you're gonna intimidate them.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of like downplayed that.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't put it on there.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: But then I would have first dates where the guy would say, Oh, you know, your job intimidates me.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And at first I was really annoyed, but then I realized, you know, they're showing some vulnerability in saying that.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I recognized that was kind of a deal breaker for me.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had had to make myself smaller in my first marriage, and I was not gonna do that anymore.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I want to, I want a marriage where I can show up or a relationship as my my true full self.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is, that is freedom.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: That is peace and freedom.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so about a so after a bit, I was just like became very transparent on match and the other apps that I was on about what I do for a living and my credentials.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And about 18 months after my partner, JL and I started dating, he said about the time we met, he had switched his match profile to specifically look with a woman for a woman with a terminal degree or a PhD.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: He recognized he needed somebody with that kind of educational background, heft, something like that.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that was right about the same time I switched my profile to just be very transparent.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: So he like at any point in time, he said, I knew exactly how many women with a PhD were on the dating market in either Salt Lake City or Logan, Utah.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we both kind of treated date, the dating process as a research project.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as a primarily researcher, that was that was where my heart and my head went.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And to know his did too, you know, 18 months later, like wow.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like we almost didn't need each other because we at first we weren't clear about what we needed.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And once we got clarity about what we needed and were looking for and like wouldn't accept anything else, boom, there he was.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: There I was.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's such good advice because I have a group of women that, you know, are recently divorced, with let's say the last three to four years.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, some of them really want to get back in the dating game and some don't for right now because these kids are home and they're trying to manage all of that.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: But what you just said is so paramount of what it is you want, and and not to minimize who you are and just put it out there.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: This is who I am, and this is, you know, this is what you're gonna get, basically, if you choose to help me out.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I I really respect that because I've been on one date and it's mostly because I have chosen not to put myself out there and and that's you know, on me for now.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um but anyway, I appreciate you sharing that.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to ask you about negotiation you're talking about, like uh because you most people think that negotiations about power or persuasion.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: I have a I have a son who could persuade you to do anything on the planet.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: So good at it.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: But how does that idea break down in our romantic relationships or our marriages?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: How does that what does that look like?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is a great question.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it actually, it's one thing, it's one thing I point to in the last day of my negotiation class with undergrads is I ask them, who do you think you're going to negotiate with the most in your life?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the I would say the vast majority of my students are they're undergrads, they are Mormon and a lot of them are married.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so they the hands shoot up, they're like, oh, our spouses.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you're right.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: So like super important who you choose because this is gonna have a ripple effect.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: That with negotiation, a lot of times we think about negotiating, you know, for buying things, a car, a house, um, negotiating a job offer.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we think it has to be super quantitative.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: But when you peel back the layers, negotiation or conflict resolution, like within a romantic couple, is very similar.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like the principles are the same.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing I tend to focus on, and my partner and I do together is um what what are each of our interests?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so interests are like what, like the underlying needs we want to, we want to get met.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, like one example, when after we got married and started cohabitating, living in the same spot in the same city, um, he raised this idea of what we now call independence evenings, where one night a week, reliably, the same night, so we can plan.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: We each go off and do our own thing.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have dinner together, we don't like whatever, we see each other at bedtime, and we may say, Oh, I went and did this.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Or he may say, you know, I I went and played tennis or whatever, or we don't.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: But when he first brought it, like the the anxious or people pleaser or something in me was like, independence evening, like that must signal something's wrong.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: But in that instance, it was, you know, kind of a negotiation conflict resolution.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it was one of the things I think was important is we were like, okay, well, you know, I'm not sure how I feel about this.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I trust him implicitly.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know he always has my and our best interests at heart.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so we were like, okay, let's let's try this, let's have an experiment.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So this one and done, like, we make a change and it has to be forever.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people think about negotiation and outcomes that way.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: We were like, let's try it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And let's see, a little over five years later, still going, still Thursday night.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, like Thursday night, I planned to make plans with my friends.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, if we hadn't known he was trying to get some of his needs met to go off and do what he wanted.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and I've recognized that being in my prior relationship, it was rather controlling.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't feel like I had the latitude to kind of go out and do things kind of on my own.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: There would be, I would have to answer for it or explain.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times it just didn't feel like it was worth fighting for.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And here, like I just signed up for in two weeks, um, a sip and paint session with a bunch of girlfriends.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna drink wine and we're gonna paint um hearts or something like that.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what we're gonna paint.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's that understanding not just what someone is asking for in a relationship, but why they're asking for it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: What need are they trying to meet?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can understand our partner's needs, maybe we're not gonna meet their needs exactly the way they want.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if we can meet them in a way that's like allows us to show up as who we are and still meet their needs, you know, that that's fundamentally important.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think too often couples, especially like with household chores, it gets into this like keeping score, right?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I unloaded a dishwasher last time.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I unloaded it this morning and all that garbage.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's more about, you know, what do what does each person need to be both in the relationship and outside of the relationship to show up as their best self?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I and I think, you know, a lot of the fundamentals of negotiation come back to that because it's you can call it negotiation, conflict resolution is the same thing.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, when needs are kind of in um or wants are um kind of mutually opposed in some form or fashion, figuring out like what's going on underneath.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we're pretty good about figuring out what's going on underneath all that.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Love that deal.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: But and I'm gonna I'm gonna jump around here, but what is the difference in a romantic relationship, marriage, whatever?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: What is the difference between compromise and negotiation?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like what is that?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Is it similar or is it completely opposite or do they go hand in hand?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, we tend to hear in in like kindergarten, like compromise, compromise is good.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And in negotiation, we're like, heck no, like compromise is not good because it, you know, compromise often can mean meeting in the middle.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and one easy example I have is say you've got an orange and two people want it.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: The husband wants it and the wife wants it, and they both can't have it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if they're meeting in the middle, they might compromising, they may cut that orange in half and he gets half and she gets half.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: But if they're understanding the fundamental needs underlying why they want the orange, the husband wants the inside because he wants to make some orange juice, and the wife wants the outside because she wants zest for something she's baking, they can each get more of what they want.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: But if they're not understanding what's kind of underlying that, and if they meet in the middle, which is compromising, they're cutting that orange in half instead of saying, Oh, you you want the insides?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want the outsides.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna peel this orange, and he gets the inside and she gets the outside, and like, yay, everybody's happy.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's brilliant.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: I had never thought of it like that, but what a great example.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: I thank you for sharing that because I was I was sitting here listening, going, compromise, negotiation.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so what's the one counterintuitive or several counter most counterintuitive thing that you've learned about conflict between partners in your study of negotiation?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I think the issue related to compromise, you know, most people would say, oh, well, compromise is good.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and the first, that no, a lot of times compromise isn't good.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Meeting in the middle, you you leave value on the table.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's how we talk about it in negotiation.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um unfortunately, I think there are a lot of couples who kind of steer away from vulnerability and being honest.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: They feel like to get what they want, they have to, you know, it becomes an argument and they're making their case and they're litigating things like attorneys do.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um to me, that's the the fundamental why why it's fundamentally important to be in a safe relationship, both emotionally, physically, all of those things.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can't show up and be vulnerable and say, hey, look, this is this is what I really want, and here is why it's important to me.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so counterintuitive showing, yeah, showing your hand more.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of people, when they think about conflict or negotiation, they think they have to keep their cards close to the best.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say, you know, there's plenty of situations when that's true.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to go in and buy a used car and lay out all your cards on the table because we all know, we all kind of have an idea about what happens there.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: But you should be able to do that with your partner and feel like your partner's not going to take advantage of the situation.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure that a lot of people um feel like they're in that kind of relationship.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so vulnerability, like that feels scary and counterintuitive to what would help them get what they want.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And my inclination is that when people feel like they can't be vulnerable or honest about what they want and what they need in a relationship, that's that's important information to have about your relationship.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's telling you something, and that's data to pay attention.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well now I appreciate that.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: So let me ask you, and I'm I'm gonna get personal and you can say no to answering the question, but when you started dating, like what amount of work did it take for the both of you to understand what the other one uh needed and what they were trying to say so that you could meet them there or let it go if you in the terms of I'm gonna go do my own thing on Thursday nights.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Let that go.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: So how much work personally, like was it therapy or was it just something that you guys still to this day work on and talk through?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you're making me um once again reappreciate my partner.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I you know, one of the things I love about JL, my partner, is I know I can trust him.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I know if I bring him something, he is not gonna explode.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: He's not gonna raise his voice at me.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: He's not gonna fight, like he's not gonna get aggressive and in or hostile in any form or fashion.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it makes it easy to bring stuff.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, does that mean we always understand each other in the first conversation?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes it does take multiple conversations before one of us is like, oh, wait, okay, now I see what you're saying.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I don't know if I can do exactly what you're asking me to do.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you, um, hopefully he won't listen to this, so I'm gonna give you a little insight.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: So um I am, I like, I like a really clean kitchen.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And he has the things that he is particular about, but I really appreciate a clean kitchen.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times I work from home working on research and things.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I like to go into the kitchen and have like a cleaned off counter.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: When I go into a kitchen and there's lots of stuff and dishes, I'm like, I can just feel like I think it's the eldest child to me that says, there's stuff over there for you to do, you know, go do it.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And he likes a flow, he gets in a flow state with his work, and he just wants to be able to set dishes down and then he'll load the dishwasher later on.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that drives me crazy.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we we had a number of conversations before we really understood each other.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I just don't understand why it's so important to put them in the dishwasher.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, actually, it's not that important that they go in the dishwasher.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I want to go into the kitchen and have like feel like it's a peaceful, organized place.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't feel like, oh, there's work for me to do.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Not that loading the dishwasher is all my responsibility, but and so what we finally got to the to a um situation where it it kind of meets both of our needs.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't go into the kitchen and see dishes on the counter.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: If he can't put them in the dishwasher at that point, or he's in the middle of something, a lot of times he's moving around the house while he runs, does meetings.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Dishes go in the sink.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: I can't really see them.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: They're not on the counter.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't stress me out.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: I may look in the counter and go or on the sink and go, oh yeah, my partner or his son, my bonus son left dishes in the sink.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody's gonna take care of them later.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't take care of them later.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I know whose dishes are whose.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: That may sound kind of petty, but I'm not, I'm not anybody's mother.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but that took several conversations for us to not just understand what the other person's needs were, but to understand our own needs.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't that I needed everything put in the dishwasher.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: What I needed was a clean countertop so that I don't feel like, ugh, there's chaos and stuff in the kitchen.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of a silly little example, but it's the most recent one.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it it but that's that's just life.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's how it works in any relationship.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: If you have a partner, whatever, those are the kinds of things I I personally feel like if the kitchen is clean, the rest of the house is clean.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: But if the kitchen is messy, I'm like, wow, like I can't, I can't, I can't function.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Then I have to, you know, the oldest child in me as well.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um yes, I totally understand that.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Man, this is such a good conversation.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: So here's what I want.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna ask you one final question, and I want you to kind of tell us, uh, give us some detail about it and tell us what it's about.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: But you have partner lab, and I want to know how you came about it and what you've learned in the process and how it can help uh those that are listening now that are single.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: If I want to know all the details, so I'm gonna let you go for it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love this question because part partner lab is my passion project.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it came about in kind of the idea started in 2020.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I literally was driving down the freeway, um, I-15 in Utah and listening to a podcast, I can't tell you which one, and I recognized that I had stayed stuck in my romantic rel my first marriage for 10 or 12 years too long.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that there's all this research about, you know, what drives health and happiness in a romantic relationship and things like that that would have informed my decisions.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be frank, I can't, I'm not sure if I avoided some of that research because I knew that it would probably tell me it's time to go.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or I was just so, there's so many other things going on and so much chaos in my personal life that I, you know, I just didn't even think about it.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought, you know, I'm in a position as a researcher, I have access to scholarly journals because of my day job, um, to dig into the research and find out and then translate that.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, if you if you read any academic scholars and uh academic uh articles in relationship science, you read the abstract and you're like, I don't know what they just said.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, none of that makes any sense.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so to be able to go in, one, to have access to it, two, to be able to translate it.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, so I thought the somebody needs this.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if I'd had something that helped me make that stay or go decision much earlier, I wouldn't have some of the guilt that I have now uh related to staying longer than I should have, and my boys learning things about relationships and dynamics that they should I wish they hadn't.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I've learned is there's so much out there that we should make more accessible to non-pointy headed academics, as I call us.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like um one of them that we've really been focusing on right now and and creating information and content and tools around is like the top five predictors as far as like weight, how how significant they are of relationship health and happiness.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not probably what you would think.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like for a lot of people, they're like, oh, well, it's communication.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, how committed do I think my partner is?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: How satisfied in our relationship do I think they are?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: How responsive are they to like bids for attention?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how much not do they appreciate me, but how much do I appreciate them and value them?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then my own sexual satisfaction, I think about sex is like the glue in relationships, and if that's undermined.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the five, and it's not the five that you would think.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I've learned is really a lot of things that have made me more intentional in my own relationship, but then also helped me develop tools that help other people either strengthen their relationship in areas where maybe it's kind of so-so, or help them get that clarity about whether they should stay in or end the relationship, because you know, we can't, we can't have confidence or courage until we get clarity.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And but once you have that clarity, you can't unsee it, right?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times our bodies, I think, know that, have that clarity before we do.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think my body did.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I actually developed an autoimmune disease disorder um a few years after my divorce.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of look back and go, was it all the stress?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't really matter, but I think for a long time my body was saying, get out, get out, get out.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And my brain was like saying, Sh, I'm busy over here.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to make this work.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so um really paying attention to what our bodies are trying to tell us.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that's what we focus on is tools and content um programs that help people get that clarity.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because once you have it, you know, if it's ending a relationship, you know, you can't find happiness um in a new relationship until you've dealt with the one that you're in.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think that's why some people have extramarital affairs, they're looking for that thing, but they haven't dealt with the clarity.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I recently came, um one of the thoughts I had about indecision in relationships is I think a lot of times when we're kind of stuck in that relationship limbo, we tend to demonize our partner.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, they're the enemy, they did this and they did that, and this is their fault.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, while that's normal, it's not helpful.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so the way I reframe it is it's not our partner that's the enemy, it's our indecision.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because the indecision is what keeps us stuck.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we can cure that indecision about staying or going or staying under certain conditions if things change, um that clarity leads to confidence and then that confidence leads to hope.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: And look, oh my goodness, if I could tell my myself back in like, I don't know, 20, 2006, 2007, when I tried to get a divorce the first time, I was like, that Meredith, you're gonna live in a much smaller house and you're gonna be so freaking happy.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna matter.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we had the stupidly big house and now my house is is small, and I absolutely adore my life.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I want others to have that same opportunity, but you can't you can't find the healthy, happy relationship until you deal with the indecision that maybe you're experiencing in a present relationship.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for sharing all this.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to for us to just end on telling the listeners where they can find you, and I'll make sure all the links are in the show notes at the end.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I would love if you would just close us with that.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh if you have one thought that you could leave with listeners that are in this state of indecision or in this state, what would you tell them to do?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: If you will, if you could do those couple of things, yeah.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: So they can find the partner lab offerings on at www.mypartnerlab.co.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um several different options there as far as assessments or programs, deep dives to help them get that clarity.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for those who maybe are stuck in that indecision, I've kind of alluded to it already, is your body probably already knows the truth about your relationship.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I think it's really hard for people to make a big decision.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, it's scary.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there's no doubt about it, it's scary.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so one way I think can be a stepping stone to a more definitive decision is this week when you interact with your spouse or partner, how does your body feel?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: What is your body telling you?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just kind of do that body scan.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, for people hopefully who are in a healthy relationship, they leave an interaction with their partner and they're like, yeah, that's good.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm safe.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: I know, you know, so-and-so's looking out for my interests.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I know for uh, you know, a lot of people who aren't and they stay in it like I did for too many years, you have that interaction and you leave, you come away from it just like, you know, keyed up or anxious or worried, and your body is screaming.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Your our bodies tell us a whole lot.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I would suggest is people do that experiment.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Every time you have an interaction with your partner, if you're feeling stuck, pay attention to how your body feels after you've completed that interaction because our bodies are there to keep us safe.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: They can't survive unless unless we're safe.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're not gonna lie to you.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's so good.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's such great information.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for being here today and and just sharing your wisdom and your knowledge with my listeners.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: I can't tell you how grateful I am that you came on today.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: I thank you so much.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me, Tony.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: I really I've enjoyed the conversation immensely.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I will look forward to many more.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just say that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do that.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, thanks for listening.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't take it for granted that you're here.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't listen by mistake.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to reach out, you can DM me on Instagram at Tony Thrash.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Until next week, remember, there's still time left on the clock.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get you off the bench to start your comeback.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: I want to give a special shout out to Country Club for the original music.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: You can find them on Instagram at Country Club.