Latest / GAIN Momentum / Discussing "Drunk" and the Alcohol's Future in Hospitality | with Neil Foster

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Discussing "Drunk" and the Alcohol's Future in Hospitality | with Neil Foster · GAIN Momentum

• ​GAIN Momentum episode #81: Discussing "Drunk" and the Alcohol's Future in Hospitality | with Neil Foster === Adam Mogelonsky: Welcome to the GAIN Momentum Podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from senior leaders in hospitality, food service, travel, and technology. In our latest book series episode, I have as always, Neil Foster, and today we are here to discuss the book “Drunk” by Edward Slingerland. I believe that'll come in backwards on there, but you can look it up and we'll be posting on it in Amazon. So, in discussing this book with regards to hospitality, we first have to summarize what the book is about before we talk about its implications for our industry. So the book talks about the co-evolution. Of alcohol as a technology and human civilization, the role that alcohol has played in fostering connections and bonds amongst first tribes, then villages and communities, then larger city states and so on and so forth. And now here we are. There's a lot of nuances to unpack there, and a lot of really cool points of history to unpack. But one of the first things they note is that human beings are evolutionarily adapted to consume alcohol where other species, most other species on the planet are not. Neil, how else do you wanna start off by summarizing this book, uh, before we talk about some of the more finer details? Neil Foster: I think you, you summarized, uh, the gist. The best way possible. Now, the irony is that here we are on, on a podcast, which, uh, often needs some structure behind it. Now the first point, everybody out there, all of our listeners know, never judge a book by by its cover. And so the title drunk might put some people off. don't be mistaken. This is a deep book that digs into the, uh, the primal roots of civilization and of alcohol as a social lubricant and a way in which. We, uh, we connect with each other, that we build trust with each other and all of the other wonderful things that hospitality is about. So, uh, we're looking forward over the course of the call to, uh, hitting on some of the, the, the points that Ed Edward Slingerland, a philosophy professor at UBC makes, uh, and tying it all together. and, uh, just I guess for context, um, I'm not a drinker. I very rarely drink. I have nothing against it. I love the idea of the social lubricant. It doesn't really work well with me. And I find, uh, other ways I go for long runs and other things o other ways in which of which I find my, my dopamine hit. Maybe I'll eat Twinkies once in a while to, to get that sugar rush. The, the book talks about Twinkies and some other things that, uh, that have similar effects. Um, I guess just, just to kick off with, we have these two, Sort of thoughts behind, um, evolution from an evolutionary context. Uh, there's, there's the point of the evolutionary hangover or the hijack. So, uh, looking at alcohol as either, uh, something that, that played a role at one point in our evolution that maybe we might have, uh, moved away from. Or, uh, some way of kind of short circuiting or, or, um, creating a, a, a way in which to, to fool our physiology. Um, would love to hear your thoughts on, on those two points. If, if you wanted to build on, uh, some of the, the details. I think that would be a great starting point. Adam Mogelonsky: So. First off, evolutionary hangover is a term to basically describe how we had something that was useful in our genetics that may not necessarily be useful anymore within the context of modern society. And for the context of alcohol itself is one thing to note about alcohol. The molecule of alcohol is that it is a very calorically dense. So alcohol. The reason why we have the enzyme that processes alcohol was not necessarily to get us drunk or to inebriate us. It was purely to help us scavenge and get energy and find an evolutionary niche so that way we could survive and prosper and specifically. If you look at it, this gene, they've traced it back. It exists 10 million years ago is when it was first introduced into our homo, uh, erectus or homo Neal line of, of apes, and it stayed with us to this day. And the reason why it was there is you would have all this fruit that was falling to the forest floor. And unlike our boreal apes like chimpanzees who can traipse up and down trees very easily and pick the fruit right off the right, off the uh, the branches. We are terrestrial apes. We are Desi, we are ground dwellers. That's why we are upright, that's why we run, uh, concurrent to that is our reach doesn't go that high, right? We can't pick the top branches like a chimp. So therefore we would have to rely more so on fruit that felt the floor and that fruit. Whenever you leave anything with sugar on the ground, it will start to decay and that decaying process produces alcohol and, uh. Therein, it can become quite toxic to bodies that don't have a specific enzyme in the liver to process alcohol. Where the evolutionary hangover comes in is you extrapolate. This to about, let's say the end of the ice Age and you have the beer before Bread hypothesis, which is to say that we figured out from this scavenging of forest floors to get partially alcoholized or partially decayed fruit into the ability to ferment the, any sort of, um, original grain like iron, corn, barley, uh, rye, et cetera, into some form of. Prehistoric beer. So we figured out how to make beer before we figured out how to make bread. And that actually makes sense because bread is a more complex process than making beer from a, uh, a purely, you know, uh, fermentation and then heating process. It's much harder to make bread. So if beer became, evolved and, and was brought into our society as a technology. First before bread. Bread is also a technology because of the process involved, it's, it follows that we invented beer as a way of storing calories for extended distances and for various periods because the alcohol is a natural antiseptic and antimicrobial. So we would be drinking beer. Uh, first for caloric assumption, caloric consumption, and then over as a byproduct of that, we were getting slightly inebriated, which then helped bring us together and form those tribal and those community bonds. As it relates to hospitality. Today we are the facilitators Now. Of these social bonds, it is what hotels excel at and alcohol is a part of that experience. Alcohol is has is a core part of the hotel experience to date. Now, going back to your original point before I throw it over to you, Neil, evolutionary hangover, we now have discovered in recent science that. Consuming alcohol regularly is not only bad for fat loss because of the calories, its original purpose, but the secondary purpose being hung over or slightly inebriated is actually not very healthy for you from the standpoint of cardiovascular disease, cognition, all that stuff, and we're starting to see communities emerge of people. Either that are drinking far less or are sober for religious reasons, wellness and health reasons, uh, because they're on certain medications or because, uh, women are pregnant. Right. you gotta think and put this into a standpoint, the context of thousands of years is we only discovered very recently that women shouldn't drink while they're pregnant. That's a fairly recent discovery by evolutionary standpoints. So how does hospitality come to face with this evolutionary hangover that is the declining need for alcohol in society? Neil. Neil Foster: This is really, really interesting and I, I love how you, you, you framed the, the hangover, The hijack piece is sort of, uh, this, this shortcut that we're also trying to understand because evolution should have dealt with that. If it was something that was, um, that was not necessary, that, that evolution has a wonderful way of getting rid of things that, that really don't make any sense. Uh, and so somehow these, alcohol makes sense and the question that we ask is what is it about alcohol that makes sense? What I find really interesting is, is the demonization of alcohol, the enigma of alcohol, the way in which, uh, as you pointed out, there's a declining use of alcohol. There are some narratives that suggest that alcohol is not good for you, so it's better not to consume it. But there's also the French paradox, which, uh, the author talks about, which is, uh. The French diet that's heavy in butter and saturated fats and all of these wonderful things that, that one eats in France. And, uh, a theory behind the, uh, the acceptability of, of the French diet is that, uh, a little bit of wine consumed in moderation. Is able to counter some of the effects of the high, uh, saturated fat diet. Um, so I guess the, the question is, um, one could go to one extreme or the other, but maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle that, uh, alcohol consumed in moderation is probably not a bad thing. By and large. And the, the challenge I think that, that we struggle with is dealing with the stigma of overconsumption of alcohol and the social problems and the, uh, the cost to governments in dealing with some of the social problems and health problems as a result of the overconsumption of alcohol balanced with the creativity, uh, that alcohol is able to produce. Coming back to hospitality. I think the interesting thing about, uh, the collectivist opportunity of, of the human condition is that in order to build trust, you have to figure out how to start with maybe no trust. And so, um. Eons ago. The, the idea of of going to an unknown person's, uh, place of residence or their domain, uh, without establishing trust in the beginning is probably not a, not a safe idea. You don't wanna go into the lion's den without sizing up the lion first. So imagine this third place that you can go to where there is this. where it's implied that, that everyone can be comfortable and, and there's sort of a trustworthy nature to where, where you're at. Uh, perhaps somebody governs the alcohol supply such that, it's not abused or it's not consumed, uh uh, unequally This third place, uh, where folks are coming together and they're able to let their guard down and to build trust over, uh, over the, over the period of time. Adam Mogelonsky: Right. So through the context of hospitality and this book is saying that the concept of moderation and Mediterranean societies do it best. Um, there is an argument to be made. That Mediterranean societies have longevity in spite of alcohol consumption, not because of, but we cannot look at it that way. We have to. Look at it through the context of moderation, which is to say a little bit, alcohol is good. It brings people together, it brings communities together. And yes, when they're consuming red wine, res wine, red wine has resveratrol, the much studied longevity compound and alcohol is a slight vasodilator. So it can help with, uh, moderating, uh, blood volume, etc us as hoteliers, as progenitors of. Of feelings of memories, of communities, of places where people feel safe. Alcohol's played a key role in that. You look at any conference and you know, people talk about whatever on the trade show floor, but then the real deals are done at the bar at 9:00 PM after everyone's had a few. And remember had a few, not a lot, right? So it's this, this happy medium of moderate consumption. And first off, understanding that moderation is important and that having some sort of regulator or Toastmaster, which was the traditional way that we consumed alcohol. Where during any Pagan festival 5,000 years ago, you would have that Toastmaster, you'd have somebody to regulate consumption who would do the periodic cheers and all that. No one was drinking by themselves. Everyone was drinking together. We, we self-regulated as a community. And the other example the book raises here is, um, there are communities where when you order things like beer and wine. Everything that you've consumed is left on the table in front of you. So that way your consumption is in full view relative to others. And if you're outpacing others, it's stigmatized. Um, at conferences you can look at it and go, well, how do I imbue moderation? And one of the number one things is we have to. Make sure that people have equal access to non-alcoholic beverages. So a lot of times at the bars, uh, we'll have great selection of beer and wine and some cocktails and then some, um, spirits. But then for non-alcoholic beverages, they have your international fear of, of sodas, which are. Pretty, um, lackluster and then water and sparkling water, uh, water and sparkling water. So that way, you know, there isn't really much innovation there. And now we have these things called mocktails, uh, for which I disagree with that term. Mocktail, I think we can do better because mocktail. Means that it's a mockery of a cocktail, which means the word itself is implying that it's a diminished form of a cocktail. So we can do better than that as well. We have, uh, non-alcoholic wine and dealcoholized wine. So dealcoholized wine is, is a specific type where they're taking wine and they're going through a chemical process to preserve all the good parts of wine, but remove the alcohol compound from it. So there's lots of different options, but still, if you look at it on a menu, a, a regular transient diner menu, the alcohol list will be this long and the non-alcoholic one will be this long. And when you look at the tam of non-alcoholic beverages, the total addressable market, we as hoteliers, as restaurateurs, are drastically underestimating the size of this market. People all over yourself and others, they want to have a beverage that isn't water and sparkling water or the sodas, but they just don't want to ha to have alcohol. So they want things like the turmeric-ginger uh, cocktails that have holistic health benefits. They want the dealcoholized wine and they wanna see the non-alcoholic. List of equal length as the cocktail list, and there is an argument to be made that a restaurant would excel at that. The conference level, we can put a few things on the menu to really help people in terms of rounding out the non-alcoholic section to it, don't you think? Neil Foster: I think you're right about that. You know, um, as, as you, as you were describing this, I thought about another point in the book where, uh, uh, where he talks about the idea of the super organ, the super organism of the human, uh, the human mind. And so what alcohol does. I feel is it creates a shared experience. It creates a, uh, a lowest common denominator of, uh, cognition I think of, of sort of cognitive priming, uh, that enables people to, to connect with each other in new and extraordinary ways. So the challenge I think that I have about, I guess when you think about a bar and a drink menu. What actually is it? I mean, you look at a restaurant and the idea of breaking bread together, having a meal together, there is something special about having a meal together. And I think over the millennia we've also thought about something special about having a drink together, but somehow that's been lost. I think having a glass of mineral water together. Is not really what, uh, sort of the essence of, of going to a lounge or, or a lounge like environment is all about. So I think we've kind of created a strange, Mutation, uh, on the bar experience by creating, uh, grading this maybe in the same way that, uh, in the cigar lounge, uh, having folks with e-cigarettes, maybe there isn't quite something, uh, that there's something a little bit, a little bit different about this. And I guess if you come back to the idea that it's a shared experience and if you look at religious rituals even, and the idea of having the glass of wine that's passed around. Everyone's drinking from the same cup and they're trusting that the integrity of the wine is good by, you know, somebody with, with status drinks first to say, look, it's okay. And they're passing it around. So how do we, I guess, reconcile our modern need for individualism? With the, the greater good for civilizational ad advancement of sort of tapping into the collective, letting our guard down a little bit to sort of figure out how we can tap that creative side of our, uh, of our being, uh, in, in a super organism and, uh, and, and really make great stuff. So are we reserved, uh, in, in sort of our, our individualist tendencies? In a way that that might not serve us well in the medium to long term. What are your thoughts? Are we too individualistic and too guarded in some ways in our modern thinking? Adam Mogelonsky: Well, let's, let's break that down. Um, so sharing a drink together to enhance a meal experience or form bonds Seal a deal. I mean, alcoholic drinks play a part in that and there is something special about sharing a bottle of wine together, a great bottle of wine together versus just a. A, um, a bottle of, uh, San Pellegrino. As, as much as I love San Pellegrino and Perrier, it's not as special as. As a nice, uh, co tarone or uh, or an Amarone or something like that. That said is if people are non-drinkers, sharing a bottle of dealcoholized wine is the next best thing. And it is our job as hoteliers to. be hospitable and offer both of those options, the the nice Amarone and the dealcoholized wine in order to appease both parties. It's not our job to force one or the other on people, but we should have our options open. And right now, because a lot of restaurants don't have the dealcoholized or the non alcoholized wine on the menu, we're limiting our options of our guests and. We're in a lot of ways, we're incentivizing people who don't drink to look elsewhere for their next accommodation. On the creativity side, there are instances, modern instances, um, you know, you look at Google, uh, they have a whiskey room on their campus where the whole idea there is the top RAs at at Google UN understood from the start that. Creative ideas aren't gonna happen necessarily when you're in the midst of coding. Or in the middle of a a 9:00 AM Monday meeting, they're gonna happen at 8:00 PM Thursday when a bunch of people from different departments show up at the whiskey room to try some expensive scotches and just relax and let their guard down. And then that's when the, the ideas are gonna formulate that are gonna help propel propel the company forward. And you brought up a great example, which is the whole idea of. The Japanese salary man and the rise of Japan from the sixties to the eighties as a first world, um, first world economy that essentially was in tatters after World War II and then had this economic miracle. And this rise where, uh, the role that alcohol played was not during work hours where the salary men would work nonstop, literally nonstop. Not even go home some nights, but they would all regroup at the bar later. And because of the way East Asian societies are oriented, uh, a very hi hierarchically higher, uh, very tiered, I, I can't say that word right now, uh, organized into hierarchies. The, it was often impolite during work hours for the young people with the bright ideas to bring those ideas forward to, to people up top. but then you throw a little bit of alcohol in the mix and all of a sudden the people at the top are more receptive to hear those ideas, and the people at the bottom have more liquid courage to bring those ideas forward. So it's, it's served a purpose in that, in what's called, um, social innovation or collective innovation, which has happened at bars and at coffee houses for untold generations since the dawn of civilization. But in light of people not drinking, we have to find other ways to help people get creative. The arts going for a run. Outdoor team building hikes, uh, activities, music, things like that. What, what other ways do you, as a, as a teetotal or somebody who doesn't drink, what ways do you, do you use to get creative? I. Neil Foster: Well, uh, just backing up a little bit, so it, it's not that I don't drink, uh, it's just I, I. Very rarely drink. And you and I, we were together, uh, just a few days ago and I was doing a little bit of research, uh, at our mutual friend, uh, Simone, uh. Simon Puo, uh, had a recommendation and I tried, uh, tried a little bit of a, a a, an Italian beer. It w it was nice, uh, in lieu of that. And, and I guess actually, and as I was drinking or as I was researching, I was finding that, that I was, uh, finding a new calm. For me, it's not completely comfortable, but I can understand how there's a, a connecting point when you're, uh, drinking together, when you're all sort of, this is a shared experience that goes back thousands of years and it's something that we've only recently been trying to find an alternative for, uh, for me. And, and when you mentioned other, other programs. Hotels and hospital. The hospitality environment has so many different options when it comes to creating shared experiences, and I wanna come back to a point that was made in the book that talked about play. We are one of few animals that. That embraces play and play, uh, was described as deliberate vulnerability. And when considering what the purpose of play was, whether it was a way of, uh, practicing skills, skill practice training, or whether it was about trust and social socialization, that there's more, it, it seems more plausible. That play is more about. And socialization than it is, uh, about actually applying any kind of skills. So that environment, whether it's. In a bar that that one has, um, you're lowering the activity of your prefrontal cortex that you can play with ideas, you can explore, you can do things differently. Uh, view, view the world differently, uh, or whether it's going on a, on some sort of an adventure. Uh, a shared experience. I feel that if both of these types of activities and environments are about play, uh, then maybe the net effect is the same, that you're lowering your guard down, you're feeling this sense of ecstasy, which means that you're sort of out of your own body. You're looking at yourself from a different vantage point or a different perspective. Then try and find those interesting experiences, whatever they, they might be. so for me to answer your question, uh, I love running. I love exploring. I've been lucky to get to one of the remotest islands in the world, which is, uh, seven days by ship from South Africa. The population's 250 people. Uh, and I can say that that's a group of people that, that do embrace. Uh, alcohol consumption in order to sort of connect with each other and maybe to suppress some of the realities of being super isolated in such a small community where everyone knows everyone else's business. Uh, so nicknames and, uh, giving each other sort of nicknames and, uh, having a, a third place where people are able to let their guard down and, and connect through, uh, that social lubricant is really important. I guess regardless as to where you are in the world, no matter how remote or, uh, or whether you're sort of in a, a, a big city. Um, so yeah, to answer your question, I love doing, uh, I love adventures and, uh, I, I've been involved with running and hiking and things along those lines and really enjoy it. You might be the same. I, I think, uh, you're an avid traveler, Adam. I think you love experiencing different things. And, uh, tell me a little bit about some of the things that, that you've been most excited about or great memories over the last year that have been shared experiences Adam Mogelonsky: Well, I, I just climbed a volcano and, uh, when I got to the top, I, I cracked open a beer is the first thing I did. Neil Foster: in tennis shoes. Sorry to interrupt, but, but that makes it even more interesting. Adam Mogelonsky: Oh yeah, no, just regular sneakers, you know? Uh, you know, no big deal. We're, we're both Canadians. We, we've, we, we've seen worse. We've, we've climbed out of out a feet, five feet of snow before. So, uh, I mean, I, I wanna bring up one other point from the book that you've mentioned here. Um, when we're talking about alcohol alternatives. Whether they are things like going for a run, a hike, other activities, even breath work, right? Um, various types of breath work can help you get, get outta that funk. historically when a society doesn't have alcohol, they have some other form of drug that is used in a similar purpose. North Americans had tobacco. Uh, central Americans, they also had alcohol. They, uh, the original type of corn, the teosinte, they made a drink called Chicha, which was corn beer, and they also had the cacao ceremony and they also had magical mushrooms. And then, um, other Central American cultures also had ayahuasca, which were all regulated by various types of, uh, of shamans. Um, early priests over in the South Pacific. They had kava, uh, which is the national beverage, uh, of Fiji, I believe. uh, and then, and then other societies at, at various points. And, uh, marijuana, uh, cannabis also ties into that a little bit for some societies. So the whole idea of alcohol. To get drunk. The point was never to get drunk. The point was always to enhance cognition in a way that being, uh, so work-focused and so analytical focus could never do for you. I raised this up because of course, the opportunity for hotels as alcohol alternatives is, is the dealcoholized wine, the non-alcoholic. Mocktails, or whichever better word, please propose one audience. then you have the activity side, but also you have things like. You have dispensaries here in Canada, and you have bud tenderers, not bartenders, bud tenders. Um, there are certain places that have put kava drinks on the menu as a, as a light one. There you can go down to ha a cacao ceremony At resorts in Mexico, there are dedicated ayahuasca retreats, which are, uh, supervised because you, you know, it is a, it is a powerful hallucinogen. Um, there's various other. Other drugs, uh, like psilocybin and ketamine that are now being described for various, uh, medical disorders along with Ibogaine there are, there are alternatives and it behooves all hotels to look at what's possible in a safe manner. Um, to talk about the moderation. I have a question for you, Neil, and that is based on what the book says about how alcohol is designed. To be had together and it is designed for moderation. How does that that principle apply to in-room alcohol service? Should we have alcohol in the mini bar? Should we have alcohol as a room service item? Knowing that people are likely to be drinking on their own and therefore lose that social regulatory mechanism. Neil Foster: Uh, well, I, I guess without getting into a lot of detail, it depends on how many people are in the room. Uh, and that alcohol consumption could change the destiny of, uh, folks that, that, that are in that room, in some way, shape and form. So, I guess, but, but your point is an interesting one, that if folks are drinking on their own. That this is probably, that might fit sort of in that hijack category where, uh, one sort of. Uses alcohol in a way that that might not be the, uh, most productive ways. Now, in, in, in the book, uh, the book talks about, about dancing, about music, about, and I wanna touch quickly here on the, maybe the, the Taylor Swift phenomenon and the fact that people came on and paid thousands of dollars to go to these huge stadiums is. Perhaps they wanted to be part of a really interesting social experiment. The book talks about if you're dancing, so I'm gonna try dancing here. And if you're dancing and we're dancing at the same rhythm, guess what? Subconsciously we're finding a connection. I. There's something vulnerable about, you know, getting your rhythm out there and if you're able to find that rhythm with other people. Amazing. Uh, when I'm on the dance floor, I like to joke with people that I have two left feet. That's how badly I dance. Uh, it lowers the guard a little bit and if. The dance moves coincide with other, other people on the dance floor. Uh, and I'm thinking years ago may, I'm sure that my wife didn't marry me because of my dance moves. Uh, but there are probably folks that are out there, li fellow listeners here, that have found their rhythm and in the spirit of hospitality, they've been able to, with the social lu lubricant, with the rhythm, that they've been able to sort of find that, that pace, that cadence coming back to the room service. You're dancing on your own. What's the point? Uh, so how do we find, how do we find ways in which to create more shared experiences? How do we reject the single serving environment within a true hospitality, uh, experience? And I hope there's another word for mocktails that, that folks start using and embracing. Because I love the idea of a bottle of something non-alcoholic that isn't, uh, mineral water, that can be shared, you know, a shared experience like the folks that are drinking, uh, a nice bottle of wine. Somehow the, the people that don't drink are left with their own, you know, whatever it might be. That's, that's sort of isolating. Um. Beer in, in, in some cultures comes in big bottles as well. I think in North America and in parts of Europe, they're the single serving. Uh, but when it comes to consuming alcohol, whether it's, uh, beer or wines that often it's something for the table, something to be shared and in Japanese tradition. It's important to fill your guest's glass up first. So if, if you've drank, if you've consumed half of your glass of alcohol, the idea that somebody notices that you're drinking and that you could use a little bit of a top-up actually prompts a gesture of hospitality that probably also boost goodwill. So you and I, if we're sitting down at the table, we've got a. A bottle of wine. And if I notice that your glass is low and I'm the one that tops it up, you're probably gonna think, Hey, you know, this guy notices. Uh, and so that builds trust in an abstract way that if you and I depend on each other for something else like this podcast, maybe, right? That you wanna know that I'm trustworthy. And if you can't think about, if you don't understand what makes me tick, that, uh, helps you intuit and infer that, that I'm a reliable guy. You can kind of test that in all sorts of different ways through a shared experience or having a, a drink at the bar. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, the, the whole idea of topping else somebody else up that isn't exclusive to Japan, but. we extol the Japanese culture because it embodies so many elements of true hospitality. Um, not just, that's just one example of dozens of, of clear ones that people experience almost invisibly when they've visit Japan. Um. You know, it's, uh, in, in other cultures throughout the Mediterranean, it's, it's almost similar thing with, with, uh, with, with cigarettes, right? Is before you have a smoke, uh, yourself, while you're sitting out there on the patio, you offer everyone at the table one, right? Similar, similar gesture is you're always caring for others. You know, the, the, to, to answer the, the minibar question and the room service question about what we do for alcohol is, I, I think it still comes back to the earlier point. Us being flexible and being accommodating, which is to say we present options. So for instance, we have these mini bars. The mini bars are suitable for smaller bottles and most mini, mini bars around the world that are stocked. A lot of them aren't stocked these days. They just throw in the two complimentary bottles of water. But if you're stocking a mini bar, oftentimes it's gonna be Coke, uh, Sprite. Uh, one other, you know, maybe a root beer. And then, um, Smirnoff, uh, Picard and Johnny Walker, right? Basic international fair, same thing, uh, across every hotel worldwide. Doesn't really give you any sense of place. But now imagine, you know, we've gone through the, the issue of you have the local, local distilled spirits that you could put in there. You could also, now, you could put in a mini bottle of de Aal wine in there. Right? That, you know, these, these guys, they're. Putting things in bottles that are the standard 750 milliliters, the 26 ounce bottles that we're so familiar with wine, but they're also making them in 250 mls. Uh, and the smaller amounts which are perfect for a minibar for. Therefore, you give people the option of having the alcohol versus the non-alcohol, and then also it's important. Another part of this is to track preference based on purchasing history. So really connecting the dots between saying, oh, this person bought a dealcoholized bottle of wine at our restaurant, and now they're coming back a year later, uh, and as an arrival amenity for whatever the reason they're coming back. We're not gonna put a bottle of champagne in there. We're gonna put a dealcoholized sparkling white wine in the room instead. Right. It's know, your, know your guest, right? And that, and that comes down to an underlying data layer where we can make that, we can make that assumption. And then even if we get it wrong, the person still drinks alcohol. I. Right. the false positive on that assumption is a no risk. Um, no risk. False, right? Because the person I drink alcohol and I walk into a room and as an arrival amenity, they give me a, a dealcoholized bottle of white wine. Uh, I'm not gonna go, oh my God, I only drink alcoholized white wine. How dare they, right? I'm not gonna do that. So there's A real opportunity for a win-win here on the data front and on the, on the surprise and delight front and on the, on the hospitality front of all this. Neil Foster: You're touching on a, a really, really interesting point, and I guess it's that opportunity for hyper-personalization. So you and I go to a conference and we're staying at the same hotel. We're in different rooms now. For me, when I look and I see there's a minibar stock full of all these spirits and beers and everything else, that minibar just sits the way it is. It's something I have access to, and I see a little tent card that makes it very clear to me that if, if I even sneeze on any of this stuff and it moves, it's gonna charge me. Actually that has a negative effect for, for some folks that are staying in a hospitable environment. And I guess, how does one overcome this? So the question is twofold. A, how can we be provided with all the amenities and the, uh, the options that that. Work for us. And how can we also not feel the friction of, of this? So if something is a fit, but then there's a price signal that, so if I'm thirsty, I've come back from a run, I'm dying. I want a bottle of water. The local water's not potable. Uh, but there's a bottle in the room and there's a a, tent card that says $10 for the water. I need that water. I'd love to drink it, but I might go across the street to the Walgreens and pick up a bunch of waters at a, at a cheaper price. How do we find this delicate balance between the hospitality experience that you really feel great, uh, about being there in that environment, and that there are options that are, that are good for you, but the hotels in those environments are still able to make money. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, the, the, the word I think that applies here is inspiration, which is to say. We can, somebody can go across the, to the Walgreens and dare I say it, but wherever there is a Walgreens, you're gonna have potable water these days, hopefully, right? Uh, but what we can do is we can inspire people. So this whole idea of an arrival amenity, and let's say you have a custom import or a local delk spirit that you could introduce as part of Amen. Is likely not going to discover that on their own. They won't know about it. Uh, they're not gonna have time to research it, and they're not gonna find it at the Walgreens across the street. So you've just created a, an experiential enhancement on many fronts where you've. Provided for your guests, you've demonstrated hospitality. It's a wellness front because it's non-alcoholic and a lot of these non-alcoholic spirits, the way they're adding flavor is, is through various ingredients that are actually holistically good for you and you're, you're enhancing the senses, the sense of place, and a sense of curiosity by bringing in something, a local good or another good that they would not normally. Have at their disposal or be able to find. So there's a lot of ways just within this context of, of a basic arrival amenity, and, uh, in light of people drinking less and wanting alternatives to alcohol, just within this context, you can create something that is very delightful and an experiential enhancement for brands across the chain scale. Neil Foster: I think you're right about that. And you know, the, uh, the interesting connecting point is the technology. Interesting. So the book was published I think in June of 2021, and a little over a year later, chat, GPT is released, unleashed to the world. And so when you're sort of considering this, uh, super superorganism, that is, the human that's connected through a shared experience. Then, uh, a short time later recognizing that there's a technology that, uh, that turbocharges that ability to connect and, uh, tap into the collective wisdom. Uh, it, it's really interesting to, to sort of, um, I guess consider how we can shape experiences, how we can understand more about what we need, what we want, uh, what's good for us, what's bad for us, uh, and maybe. Chat GPT or, or life is a way of priming oneself in a different way, a different technology that primes. Uh, gatherings and socialization and everything else that you're able to, let's say you go to a, on your next adventure and you're thinking of climbing an active volcano, uh, you can understand, tap into the collective to know how to prepare for such an experience, how to connect with the people that are gonna help you make the most of that experience. We've never really seen anything like this. New development. First we had fire, then we had alcohol. Now we have ai, uh, in, in a general form. Uh, this is super revolution. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, that, that, uh, pretty much summarizes all of humanity right there. We don't, we don't need to dwell on any of the details, just fire, alcohol. Ai. There you go. That's, that's humanity. Neil, uh, you know, to close things out here, you know, we've talked about the tam of not the non-alcoholic market, yourself included. There are opportunities bound for hotels, both in the room, in the restaurant, in conferences, wherever else alcohol is sold. Non-alcoholic beverages can be sold at the same time as alcohol still has a purpose, right? It, it still is. More or less a tool for social cohesion, uh, in moderation. Uh, too much of it can be bad. Um, what actionable steps would you give to hoteliers who are reading this as well? What actionable steps would you give to technology vendors who are listening to this? Neil Foster: This is really interesting and I wanna go back to something. I remember reading freshly in 2005, the $10,000 martini. At the Algonquin Hotel, and if Anthony Mal, if you're listening, I believe this was your idea, and the idea of being as playful as this, creating an experience like that, and it had worldwide publicity. Uh, the Algonquin Hotel was well known for philosophers coming together and, uh, kicking ideas around. And so the place and the idea and that connecting point and the story and the imagination of, uh, you know, here's this. $10,000 cocktail. How can this be? I think that that hotels can be playful, uh, about the way in which they. they find new ways of, of creating these experiences. And I, I would say that maybe AI might be a way of researching and understanding where the needs are. there also might be ways of figuring out hyper-personalization. I would love to check into a hotel that knows enough about me that in the room there's something that really, that that delights me. But I recognize also that there are some challenges with labor, with, with staffing, that make it really, uh, very difficult to, to implement some of these ideas. Uh, I do think, however, that if technology companies and hotel companies are able to have real meaningful discussions and, and true partnerships that the technology companies are able to learn from the hotel companies. There's a vast amount of information that's tapable that can speak to that guest experience in a way that makes it even more interesting for future. You and I just came from a, an interesting experience, one technology vendor that invited, uh, some, uh, intermediary folks together just for some high level discussion to understand the industry, to understand how to make those connections, uh, and really, as a tool for reflection. And so I think the more hotels and technology companies are willing to get out of their comfort zone and to do things differently. Maybe the premise of the book Drunk is about getting out of one's comfort zone and trying different things and being explorers, being adventurous, finding your child, your inner child again for a little while as you're, uh, rebuilding. those, I think are, are the, uh, the main points that, that I would have. I don't have any specific answers other than if we can embrace our inner hospitality, that we can be, uh, vulnerable with each other. We find common ground. I think those of us that are in this industry, because we have hearts, because we love people, we love delivering great experiences, the sky's the limit. As long as we're able to get together and uh, and talk and to develop interesting ideas, Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, I, I mean, I totally agree. there are lots of opportunities, but starting from the core premise of needing to rediscover your inner thought, your inner sense of play, your inner child, uh, and then getting out of the analytical state. It doesn't have to be alcohol. Alcohol is just a means to an end. It's a technology for that purpose. There are other technologies there are. Ways that we can program to discover our own creativity and to build those, that sense of community and social cohesion. Neil Foster: can we just one really here, which is. Vulnerability. So one thing that I think is going to be hard is to try and figure out experiences where folks can find a shared true vulnerability, whether it's walking over red hot coals or uh, you know, some sort of an in in initiation process. I think there's something inherent about shared vulnerability that builds trust. In corporate team building exercises, usually it's, uh, you know, you're hanging off the ledge of a cliff and someone's, uh, you know, hanging onto you with, with a, a thin fraying rope and you literally put your life in their hands. And there's something about that experience that, that builds trust. I think it's really a, a question of how to meaningfully do that. The book talks a little bit about body language and technology has the potential of taking away some of our humanity, the Duchenne smile, which is the delight that we feel. You know, like when I see you, I truly feel great 'cause I know that you and I are gonna connect with some interesting ideas. However, the selfie smile and the problem I have with cameras in this ubiquitous selfie culture is that smile. It's a different kind of smile than that delight that you see someone from halfway around the world that you're excited to spend some time with. The body language cues that one sees, the inhibitions that alcohol or, or some kind of a, an experience that suppresses your prefrontal cortex enables is that it, it makes it harder to hide your humanity. And so how can we figure out within the hospitality realm to bring out all that's great about humanity, to be sensitive about all the differences that one has, whether they like drinking or they don't like drinking, and define vulnerable experiences that, uh, that are reasonable and that, Our clients and our, our guests and the people who we, we would love to find those hospitable experiences, will embrace and love and walk away from our hotels and restaurants thinking I absolutely love that experience and I feel, I'm not thinking, I'm feeling. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. And you know, that's what alcohol has always done, is it allows us to feel in various ways. It, as, as is often said, is that alcohol doesn't change who you are. It only amplifies, uh, who you are on the inside. Uh, there's a bunch of expressions like that, but, that whole idea of vulnerability and that I think that the vulnerability is part of the social cohesion and the disinhibition of alcohol where it helps us bring our guard down to bring us together. And being vulnerable is part of that. And a lot of people do use alcohol as a crutch to become vulnerable because some part of them won't let them be vulnerable without. Some external entity to do it, help, help nudge them in the right direction. And that's getting into the whole psychology. We haven't really talked about the, um, people who are, uh, not necessarily physically addicted to alcohol, but socially, uh, psychologically addicted to alcohol. They use it, they use it as a, as an escape in a lot of ways. that's a whole other can of worms. Uh. To talk about the psychology of it. I think that for here and now, our listeners that are, that are primarily hoteliers and, uh, rest tours and, and technologists, uh, from a solution and or outcome orientation, we're looking more at. The change that's happening and how they can get ahead of that to help the people around them in their communities or their stakeholders uh, and also help their business in a lot of ways. So there is a business case to be made for non-A alcohol, non-A alcohol exploration or alternatives to help us be vulnerable to help us. Get, ramp up our creativity. Um, and that's, that's the bottom line. That's, that's what this book is trying to convey. Neil Foster: it's a wonderful book, and I hope, uh, many of our listeners out there will, uh, uh, listen to it, read it. It's, uh, it's got a depth that connects perfectly with the hospitality in mind. And I just wanna say that out of all the books that we've done so far, uh, this is the first that you've recommended. Uh, Adam, I loved it. I'm looking forward to more of your recommendations and to exploring other ideas. And I think if we can embrace her inner child. That's what hospitality's about. And I think if, if we're in this industry and we don't find any interest in reconnecting with our inner child, it's quite possible that we are in the wrong industry. Whether you drink or not. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah. Hotels are about me. Memories, right? And discover. It lets you feel, and memories are attached to feelings. They're not attached to thi to thinking or just thoughts. They go one level deeper into feelings and emotions. So Neil, I think we've, we've got a good chat here to cover off this book and its applications for hospitality, which are innumerable. Thank you so much. And for everyone. Um. Please if you have a spare, uh, if you're looking for something out to your book list, drunk is a great one for hoteliers, uh, to understand and always with the context of how can this work for me, my friends, my family, my business, and my community. 'cause there's lots of applications. Neil, thank you. Neil Foster: Thanks, Adam. Great discussion. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Great. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, you.