Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - EP. 296 - The Man In The Dark Sportcoat

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JFK ASSASSINATION - EP. 296 - The Man In The Dark Sportcoat · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

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  Hey there, this is Mark Gruber along with my girlfriend Derek Kuntley from America's
• 0:05
  Really Old Stories. You are about to hear the most listened to exclusively jfk
• 0:10
  Assassination podcast and one of my favorites, the Lone Gunman Podcast. Now,
• 0:15
  here's Rob and Joey again. That Punk Tube. Action one oh seven of
• 0:23
  the Fair Use Act of nineteen seventy six provides protection to use copyrighted material for
• 0:28
  research, analysis, education, and commentary purposes. We hear at Loose Moose
• 0:34
  Productions reserve that right now, on with the show. Here's Joe B and
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  the Triple B. Hey and you Deane. How's things in Texas? Everything
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  is going to hay down here in Dustice, Janz, Joey, Joe and
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  Joe Rock, John and Joey, Joe and your Webby and Joey Cobby dam
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  and here we go and here we go. You know, if that was
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  my only problem, I'd be Okay. Do I sound choppy? You are
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  to me? Okay, I look choppy? For some reason, my video
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  is choppy as hell. We were trying to fix it before the show.
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  I don't know what is going on, but at least I don't sound that
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  way anyway, Welcome to the show, everybody. This is episode of number
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  two d and six of the Lone Guming Podcast, and this one is the
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  Man in the Dark sport Coat and other Adventures. Joe, how are you,
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  my friend? Hey? What's up? What's up? I am good.
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  I have a little bit of a Disney week, but well hectic,
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  but here we are on a Friday night with our homies. Yes, absolutely
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  glad to be here. Let's say hi to everybody in the chat from the
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  jump. We gotta thank Big John and Jack for the super chats Man appreciated
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  fellas. And we gotta say hello to Tiny Dancer, Garden Guns, South
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  to West, Paula, Jane, Cat Daddy, Steve Ashley, the Chocolate
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  Thunder from down Under, Scott Scott Trey, our favorite, our favorite guy.
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  It's come over from the dark side. I love you. Tray Bungled
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  is here, Sally is here, Colleen is here. We missed you last
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  week. Colleen. Let's see anybody else that we're missing. Yeah, pork
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  Choppy, I know. Oh look now I'm unfrozen. Oh hallelu Hallel looser
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  and now I'm frozen again. Maybe I'm just moving too fast. For my
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  camera to pick up. I don't know what the sam hell is going on
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  with this thing, Joe, very possible, m fucking piece of shite.
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  Okay, anyway, if it's not one thing, it's another, you know
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  what I'm saying? Yeah? Ah, can't. Can't we all just get
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  along? All right? So to set the table a little bit about what
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  we're going to be talking about here this evening, a man in a dark
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  sport coat and light colored pants allegedly dashed out the back door of the school
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  Book Deposity about three minutes after the shots had been fired at the Motorcate.
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  He was in his late twenties or early thirties, about five eight, and
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  had dark brown hair. As he ran south on Houston Street, his coat
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  was flapping backwards in the breeze behind him like batman. Who was this man
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  and why was he running away? Was he a conspirator escaping from the scene
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  of the crime, or was he just an excited schoolbook Depository employee? Finding
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  an answer to that question is not as easy as it sounds, folks.
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  That's right. There's a lot of conflicting testimony, and we're going to get
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  into it here in a minute. Nevertheless, a proper analysis of these eyewitness
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  accounts will demonstrate that the apparent conflicts are really nonexistent ones. We will compare
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  and combine the details of what was seen and heard in order to obtain a
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  unified picture of what's happening behind the school book depository. Let us first examine
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  the matter through the eyes of James Warrel, a young senior in high school
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  living with his mother and sister in Farmers Branch, which was the Dallas suburb.
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  On November twenty second, he decided to skip school, much like amos
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  Ewans, to see the president, and he hitched the ride to love Field,
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  arriving at nine am, and then waited for the president's arrival. When
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  the President arrived and disembarked, the larger airport crowds prevented worl from getting a
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  good view. He considered alternatives for seeing JFK, and he hit upon a
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  bus ride to Dailey Plaza, the final slow point of the motorcade, which
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  would be direct while the motorcade itself would take an indirect routy at reduce speed
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  to enhance the president's visibility. Warrell caught his bus and wound up awaiting the
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  motorcade underneath, of all places, the sniper's window, allegedly in front of
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  the school book Depository twelve thirty. He could see the presidential limousine as it
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  made its successive slow turns onto Houston and Elm Streets. He could not see
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  the president well, however, as the press of the crowd began or again
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  defeated his purpose. When the limousine had gone fifty to seventy five feet excuse
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  me past him, he heard a shot that sounded like it came from above.
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  He looked up and saw about six inches of a rifle protruding from either
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  the sixth or fifth floor window, four inches of barrel extending from two inches
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  of stock. The main liquor carcando barrel extends five and one half inches from
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  the stock. Warrell looked down the street to see where the rifle was aiming.
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  A second shot was fired, and the President slumped down in his seat.
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  Warrell again looked up and saw a small disc charge, a flash,
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  and smoke as the rifle fired again. Look nobody else saw fire and smoke
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  coming from the window, But I'm just gonna read what he said. At
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  that instant, he heard people screaming and others were yelling. Duck he saw
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  cover by going around the corner of the school book depository. Just as he
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  was rounding the corner, he heard a fourth shot. Fourth shot. Folks
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  continuing on towards the rear corner of the building. He turned right and crossed
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  the street, hoping to catch his breath at the corner of Houston and Pacific.
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  He waited there for perhaps two or three minutes, and then saw the
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  man in the dark sport coat come busting out the back door and run toward
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  Houston and Elm, where he disappeared among other bystanders. Orrell watched him as
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  long as he could, but after losing sight of him, excuse me,
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  he turned eastward and walked along Pacific Street, reaching his mother's office at Ross
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  and Irva. He took a bus from there to school and then hitchhiked home.
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  The next morning, as he watched the ongoing television coverage, he saw
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  Jesse Curry make a plea to anyone who had seen the shooting to notify the
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  police. So, being the upstanding citizen that young James was, that's exactly
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  what he did, and his mommy took him down to City Hall to make
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  a statement. Three and a half months later, he testified before the Warrant
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  Commission and his account of the mysterious man running from the back of this TSBD
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  was reported in the local papers. One man who read this story was outraged
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  for he knew very well that no one had come out that way. But
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  we'll get into him in a second. So Joe, let us focus on
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  our prime suspect, eyewitness players in the game. Sure, let's do it,
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  mister James Warrell, Richard Warrell and of course Rob. What do we
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  put the most stock in first day testimony early statements? Yes, sir,
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  And this is a screenshot of the affid David that he testified to when his
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  mother brought him down to the station the next day on November twenty third,
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  nineteen sixty four. And you know, I'm not going to read all this,
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  but he did get scared and ran from the location and did not look
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  up at the TSBD. After to Pacific and Houston. When he was one
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  hundred yards from the building, he stopped to catch his breath and look back
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  at the building. I saw a w slash m white male five eight to
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  five ten, dark hair, average weight for height, dark shirt or jacket
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  open down front, no hat, didn't have anything in hands, came out
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  of the building and ran the opposite direction from me. I then caught a
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  bus home. And you know first day statements that DPD and also an FBI
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  document on the same day. FBI was there as well, and I'm just
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  going to read the description that they give five eight to five ten, dark
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  hair, dark clothing, wearing some type of jacket, leaving the building where
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  he had seen the gun the TSBD and started to run the opposite direction from
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  him, from Pacific and Houston. And he stated that last night when he
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  saw the photographs of Lee Harvey Oswalt on television, he felt this was the
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  person he had seen running away from the building. He stated this person did
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  not look back, but he was certain that this was a white person since
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  he had a profile view. So those are the early statements from mister James
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  Warrell, pretty consistent with the article. Yeah, it sounds like it.
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  So I mentioned at the end there that there was a guy who heard Warhill
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  had to say, and he was like, hm, I don't think so,
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  So what does James Romac or who is James Romack and what does he
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  say, Well, James Romack was a gentleman who came forward after seeing the
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  reports from Warrel going to testify to the Warrant Commission, and what he saw
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  someone running from the back and all of a sudden, not only Romac but
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  his coworker Rackly and someone from K Box News or radio Pate. I forgot
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  his first name, but h so Sam Sam Pate, Yes, thank you.
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  Ro So here we go and James Warrell is appearing to testify. We'rell
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  allegedly heard the fourth shot like you said in the article, Rob and states
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  you saw a man running from the rear of the TSBD. Based on the
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  publicity aka the newspaper article. Romac called and stated he Pate and Rackley were
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  at the rear of this building during pertinent period, during the pertinent period,
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  and they observed no one leaving the building as indicated by Warrell. Rackly of
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  opinion, Warrell's story not true. So as we'll see, Rob, they
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  put three people here to go against Arrel's same day testimony. Yeah, because
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  understand this, folks, because anything other than Lee Harvey Oswalllly Net building is
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  a problem for not only the police, the FBI, and the official version
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  of events, So just keep that in mind. Anything else other than Lee
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  Harvey Oswald leaving that building is a giant problem. Yes, sir, you
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  are correct, and they will go to great lengths to protect the regional story
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  as we'll see, Yes, exactly, we'll see that a theme in these
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  witnesses. Rob. And this is from one of the earlier or earliest FBI
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  documents I could find on James Romac March nine, sixty four, And this
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  is just a screenshot of some of the pertinent info to quote him. After
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  hearing the three shots, he walks south and he was actually a Navy veteran
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  because I was reading his Warrant Commission testimony, Rob, and they were asking
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  him, like his opinion on the three shots and could sniper make it?
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  Make that shot? It was just it was weird, like what does this
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  guy, this construction worker like, is he an expert witness? Now?
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  And at the same time, the news radio car radio station K Box.
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  I remember that because it's not Xbox's K Box might be might have been the
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  precursor, Rob. Maybe with Sam Pete driving on the scene, Romack removed
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  a barricade from the street so the reporter could get in the area of the
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  TSBD. He stayed in the area for approximately five to eight minutes until the
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  police took over the area, and during his warrant commission, he said that
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  an officer ran to the back of the building and then ran back around and
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  according to a lot of what we read and we know, there's probably Seymour
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  Whitesman. We don't know, of course it wasn't identified, but he was
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  a DPT officer alleged to be in the back. Yeah, something else I
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  forgot about Joe that is brought up here. I think Bungalow brought it up
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  in the chat here. A woman called into a radio show Shane's saying she
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  saw a guy in a sports jacket leaving the back of the TSBD, which
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  I do believe either I or we talked about it at some point. I
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  think it was pre Joe. I don't know we were talking about or I
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  was talking about a silver car that was parked back there on Houston. There's
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  some woman that called into some radio show in the nineties or early two thousands.
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  She related this story because there was a silver car seen by somebody at
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  the Tippet shooting as well, heading away from it. I don't remember her
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  saying that this guy was wearing a dark sports coat or a dark jacket,
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  but it's quite possible. No, I actually remember that, Vally. I
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  don't remember if it was b J or a J before Joe or after Joe,
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  but it might have been BJ. But that that does ring a bell.
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  Yes, yes, it's all the giant blur. Yes, I ain't
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  that the truth? So so yeah, James Roma comes out after seeing this
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  newspaper article, completely goes against James Worreld same day testimony. And granted this
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  is, you know, over four months after the assassination, as he's about
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  he's within a day or two of we'rell testifying to the Warrant Commission. I
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  believe it was the tenth they'll put me on it. But so this is
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  a very well timed disinformation campaign, possibly I don't know, allegedly. And
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  one more, but oh yeah, that said, I have on Romac,
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  and I'm sure there might be one or two things on him later. But
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  these were not the only two people. There were many other people that saw
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  the man in the dark sports code. Yes. Yes, one of these
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  Rob is Caroline walth yes or Carolyn Yes, Carolyn yes, Carolyn, not
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  Caroline, that's one of our listeners. And this is an HCA report on
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  the press of two men in the upper floor windows of the TSBD, and
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  these are kind of like it kind of gets together all the witnesses that saw
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  two men in the upper floor of the TSBD, and of course mister Carolyn
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  Walter. She was interviewed in by the FBI December fourth, nineteen sixty three,
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  and stated that at the time of the motorcade, she was standing on
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  the east side of Houston Street fifty or sixty three, south of the south
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  curve of Elm Street. After the ambulance left with the epileptic, missus Walter
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  looked up at the windows of the TSBD and saw a man in the southwest
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  corner window of the fourth or fifth floor. According to the FBI report,
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  missus Walter was positive the window was not as high as the sixth floor.
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  She described the window as being the most easterly on the south side of the
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  building. Miss Walter said the man was holding a rifle in his hands and
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  a barrel of the rifle was pointing downward, and the man was looking towards
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  Houston Street. Both his hands were extended towards the window ledge. She described
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  the man as having light brown or blonde hair and wearing a white shirt.
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  She described the rifle as having a short barrel, possibly being a machine gun.
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  She noticed no other features of the rifle. Miss Walter said that she
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  saw at the same time a second man standing in the window to the left
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  of the man with the rifle. This man was wearing a brown suit coat.
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  She could only see his body from the waist to shoulders, and his
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  head was hidden by the window. Miss Walter told the FBI this almost immediately
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  after she saw the second man in the window. After the mortar, Kate
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  approached Houston Street. And of course she was not called to testify before the
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  War Commission. Of course why would she be. She's telling a different story
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  than what they want to hear, so they don't want to hear her.
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  She did not fit the narrative. Yes, she certainly did not fit the
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  narrative. And one thing I wanted to throw out there too about this James
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  Romac dude is now, folks, this is where we might need your help.
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  So originally on the rear of the school book depository. Okay, you
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  know there's big gates that they walked the tramps by, well, they open
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  and that's where they loaded the truck that Billy Lovelady would drive, you know,
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  either moving stuff in between warehouses, are making deliveries. Now on the
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  backside of that doc was the rear loading dock where they would receive shipments skids
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  of books. Okay, So also on that side where the dock is,
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  there is a door, and this is where so if I'm looking out the
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  back of the depository to my left from the corner, this guy was one
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  hundred and ten feet away to the west of the backside, like eleven o'clock
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  on the clock face away. Could was there another door over on the right
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  side of the rear of the of the like the Houston Street side. I
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  don't know, but if there was, this could explain Romac not seeing anybody
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  coming out of the one back door, but war L could be talking about
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  the other door. I kind of think that there had to be another door
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  back there for them to come in, because that's where everybody was parking from
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  over there, and they would park, you know, at the end of
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  Houston Street and then come in the back door. I don't think they walked
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  all the way to the other side of the building where the loading dock was,
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  and came in. But I could be wrong, see Bungalo the saying
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  three doors, he thinks, So it's quite possible that this Romac guy just
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  was watching the wrong door and didn't see because in Warrel's own testimony, he
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  stated that he was standing on the sidewalk in front of the depository, like
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  under the alleged sniper's window, and that after the shots he went around the
• 22:49
  corner, So he would have went around the corner and then to the back
• 22:53
  of the depository, which is where he would have seen this guy. So
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  definitely would have been out of sight of Romac if he's watching a different door.
• 23:04
  Yeah, and buncle just said two doors and the bay, right,
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  That's what I was thinking, two doors in a bay, So yeah,
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  you're right. I mean, he wouldn't have been able to been able to
• 23:18
  see all three have advantage point to all three of those likes maybe some of
• 23:25
  the other like World did or Walter did or some of the other people will
• 23:30
  get to Aaron Rowland, Arnold Roland, excuse me that saw other people leave
• 23:37
  the TSBT. Yes, all right, we'll go back here. So we
• 23:48
  just talked about Caroline, Carolyn Arnold and Ruby Henderson, who I didn't know
• 23:57
  about either until I was looking into this this week. And this isn't the
• 24:03
  same HSCA report in an FBI interview on December fifth, nineteen sixty three,
• 24:07
  and Miss Ruby Henderson related at the time of the motorcade, she was standing
• 24:11
  on the east side of Elm Street, just north of Houston Street. She
• 24:15
  said that right after the ambulance left the area with a man who had suffered
• 24:22
  an epileptic Caesar Caesar, she left Caesar, she looked up at the TSBD.
• 24:32
  She saw two men in the window on one of the upper floors,
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  so she's not specifying a floor. She couldnot recall exactly what floor they were
• 24:41
  on, but stated that she did not recall seeing any other persons on any
• 24:44
  other floors above the two men. So we know Rob that there was a
• 24:51
  few people hanging out the windows, right, Well, we know that there
• 24:55
  was the three black guys are one the fifth floor, right, So is
• 25:03
  this who she's described and seen two of them, you know? But she
• 25:07
  also states that one of the men was not a Negro or she could not
• 25:12
  definitely state that one of them men was not a Negro. That's some weird
• 25:18
  wording, but yeah, might be by design. And yeah, she described
• 25:25
  one as being possibly Mexican or Negro and the other was not. She cannot
• 25:30
  further describe their attire. They were standing back from the window, which I
• 25:37
  think Roland said that right, we'll get there, but looking out towards the
• 25:41
  motorcade. Miss Henderson says she saw the two men in the window before the
• 25:48
  motorcade, but did not know much. I thought, okay, I thought,
• 26:00
  okay, there we go. So here the other man was so one
• 26:03
  of the men she was describing was wearing a dark shirt, which is kind
• 26:07
  of consistent. Sorry I missed I read over that part. So you know,
• 26:11
  this is a witness I never really knew about. But you know,
• 26:14
  she's giving an FBI interview on December fifth, sixty three, and it's corroborated
• 26:19
  by other people that we've talked about and that we will talk about. Problem.
• 26:25
  Yes, yes, sir, all right, sure. Next, Richard
• 26:30
  Randolph car Yes, we've talked about him in another episode, but don't ask
• 26:37
  me which one. It was probably the same one. It's all I know.
• 26:44
  I talked about these guys. He saw somebody leave in the back of
• 26:47
  the school Bok depository. But we didn't really get into depth about people seen
• 26:52
  on the floors before the shooting and the dark sport coat and all that jazz,
• 26:56
  which just kind of overlaps a little bit with what we talked about before.
• 27:03
  Yeah, maybe it was the uh, the girl on the stairs episode,
• 27:10
  that's my guess. But yours is as good as mine, guys.
• 27:15
  So. Richard Randolph Carr stated to the FBI in January fourth, sixty four
• 27:19
  that he saw a man looking out of a window on the top floor of
• 27:22
  the depository a few minutes before Car heard shots. He described the man as
• 27:30
  white, wearing a hat, tan sport coat, ding ding, and glasses.
• 27:37
  He said that at the time of the Motorcadie was standing on about this
• 27:45
  the sixth floor of the new Courthouse, which was under construction at Houston and
• 27:48
  Commerce. Car said that from that spot he could only see the top floor
• 27:52
  and roof of the depository. It was from that location that he observed the
• 27:57
  man in the depository window. Carr said that after the shots, he was
• 28:02
  going towards the direction of the Triple Underpass. So if you were say,
• 28:08
  on the where they said Oswald was shooting at and he shot he would be
• 28:14
  running towards in the diagonal direction, right towards the grassy knoll to that back
• 28:19
  staircase, right, Rob, I think I believe too. Yeah, yes,
• 28:26
  because the staircase wasn't on that side, so we would have to go
• 28:29
  across. But then when he got to the intersection of Houston and Commerce Streets,
• 28:36
  he saw a man whom he believed to be the same individual he had
• 28:38
  seen in the window of the depository. Carr was not called to testify before
• 28:45
  the Warrant Commission. Another little pattern we're seeing here with these witnesses. He
• 28:51
  did testify on February nineteen sixty nine the Parish County Criminal District Court in New
• 28:57
  Orleans. Dave Louisiana play Shaw versus Dave Louisiana h Car stated that he saw
• 29:11
  the man in the fifth floor window of the TSBD. He said he leaders
• 29:15
  later saw the man going down Houston Street, turning at Commerce Street. Car
• 29:19
  also described the hat worn by the man has felt it. Said his glasses
• 29:23
  were heavy rimmed with heavy earpieces. He had on a tie and a tan
• 29:29
  sport coat. Another tan sport coat reference. So I don't know if you
• 29:41
  want me to go on to the next one room. Yeah, I'm sorry.
• 29:45
  I'm trying trying to fix this damn webcam or camera issue and something is
• 29:52
  definitely wonky because the other one, as you can see with this quality sucks.
• 29:56
  This is from straight from the computer. Yeah, we're not going to
• 30:00
  do this when it's choppy too. Well, you were good to me,
• 30:04
  sir. All right, well let's look at some comments. Will the Triple
• 30:08
  B gets that go in? Hi, Moose? They needed Lee Harry Oswald
• 30:32
  so they could clear that car park. I think possibly, Hi, Sean,
• 30:37
  how are you some of the highest caliber guns? I know? Garden
• 30:44
  and Guns is an expert on guns? Are both actions? She didn't on
• 30:48
  the guns she meant automatic. Yeah, I didn't think it was a machine
• 30:52
  gun either. I kind of took that as like a witnesses error type of
• 30:57
  thing. Maybe just bold at or having shots semi frequently could be considered a
• 31:04
  machine gun to someone who is not familiar with guns. Right, let's see,
• 31:10
  Timothy Ryan, the black guys on the fifth floor would have heard the
• 31:11
  shots and commotion above them big time. No, Yes, I believe which
• 31:18
  one was it? Was it? Junior Jarman? Was that said? That
• 31:22
  he heard or he felt some of the pebbles from the scope on the sixth
• 31:27
  floor fall on him when he was hanging out the fifth floor. The chat
• 31:32
  will remind me which one that was. So the people did see that,
• 31:37
  But you have to you do have to wonder how many of these witnesses that
• 31:40
  we're talking about did see those black eyes on the fifth floor and thought they
• 31:47
  were on a different floor after the fact, right, I mean with witness
• 31:52
  testimony, you could have ten witnesses and ten different areas. Kara get a
• 32:00
  great breakdown way back when on TSBD variations in testimony, logom and podcast like
• 32:06
  four years ago. You know what, I remember that episode. That's a
• 32:09
  really good one. I love all of Carmine's episodes, even going back to
• 32:15
  them years after the fact, will still it's just as relevant today And spoiler
• 32:22
  we hope to have him on hopefully the week after fourth of July. So
• 32:31
  Bart Camp Interrogations. Yes, he's obviously done a lot of great work on
• 32:36
  that. Hi, Sally, how are you? Yes, Paul, they
• 32:50
  heard ChEls hit the floor, but amazingly they heard the shots just fine afterwards.
• 32:54
  Yeah, there's so many people that were near the TSB that didn't hear
• 32:59
  anything, or so I heard three, we'rell heard four, and we're gonna
• 33:05
  get to Aaron Roland in a second here, once we give Rob a second
• 33:09
  to get back. They said the building shook. I will never believe that.
• 33:14
  Neither did I. Yeah, that's it's a little much off topic.
• 33:21
  It's okay, Oh, True Detective. I watched season one True Detective this
• 33:23
  week. Very good. Thanks Joe B. Yeah, you know what,
• 33:28
  I watched it like years ago, and I like had heard on like seen
• 33:32
  some Twitter posts X posts that like it was like one of the best seasons
• 33:37
  in television history, like for a limited series. So I was like,
• 33:40
  all right, I'm gonna go back and rewatch it. And it's it's really
• 33:46
  good. I mean, Matthew McConaughey is amazing, and yeah, I recommend
• 33:52
  it to anyone. It's not like the most up y show though, if
• 34:00
  you want to It's not all roses. Yes, it was the plaster thank
• 34:06
  you, Colleen falling on them a floor below seems really strange. Yeah.
• 34:10
  I think they were compromised to be honest and we're just strong armed into kind
• 34:22
  of saying what. I don't know if it was ball or beelim whatever they
• 34:25
  wanted to. I mean, if you're an African American in nineteen sixty three
• 34:30
  and you don't want to be attached with Oswalty, you'll kind of say whatever
• 34:36
  you want. Right. Let's see, Carmine was of the opinion that whoever
• 34:40
  was in the TSBD wanted to be seen sticking heads out windows. I mean,
• 34:45
  that's what it seems like, right. I mean, multiple witnesses say
• 34:51
  people are making overt you know, parade rest and other type of positions with
• 34:58
  the rifle. The rifle out the window. It's extremely sketch because no assassin
• 35:06
  would want to do that. I think we all know that, And why
• 35:10
  would you want to draw attention there unless that was kind of the diversion.
• 35:15
  And I do think it's very possible that a shot or more was fired from
• 35:20
  the TSBD. I just don't think it was awesome. But Season three is
• 35:29
  good. Tray you know what I saw Season three? After you watch that,
• 35:40
  all right, So how about let's do this. I'll continue with my
• 35:44
  little power point as we get ready for the Triple B to triumphantly return to
• 35:50
  us here, and we were going to go to mister Arnold Roland, who
• 35:58
  made a statement to the d on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three,
• 36:05
  obviously the day of the assassination. Then testified to the Warrant Commission on March
• 36:10
  tenth, nineteen sixty four. And this was also a student at a high
• 36:15
  school in Dallas, Texas. He's employed at the Pizza Inn on the weekends.
• 36:24
  At approximately twelve ten, his wife Barbara and him ride in downtown Dallas
• 36:31
  and took position to see the presidential motorcade. We took position at the west
• 36:37
  entrance of the Sheriff's office on Houston Street. We stood there for a time
• 36:45
  talking about various things, and we're talking about the security measures that were being
• 36:49
  made for the Presidenti's visit in view of the recent trouble when mister Adlai Stevenson
• 36:55
  had been a recent visitor to Dallas. It must have been five or ten
• 37:00
  minutes later, when we were just looking at the surrounding buildings when I looked
• 37:05
  up at the TSBD building and noticed that the second floor from the top had
• 37:12
  two adjoining windows which were wide open, and upon looking I saw what I
• 37:16
  thought was a man standing back about fifteen feet from the windows and holding his
• 37:23
  arms. Would appeared to be a high powered rifle and looked as though it
• 37:30
  had a scope on it, and he appeared to be holding this at parade
• 37:35
  rest and parade rest sort of position. I mentioned this to my wife and
• 37:43
  merely made the remark that it must have been the Secret servicemen. This man
• 37:50
  appeared to be a white man and appeared to have sorry it's hard to read,
• 37:55
  a light colored shirt on open at the neck. He appeared to be
• 38:00
  of slender build, appear to have dark hair. In about fifteen minutes,
• 38:05
  Kennedy passed the spot where we were standing, and as Marta kaid, I
• 38:09
  just turned west on Elm, heading down the hill when I heard a noise
• 38:14
  which I thought to be a backfire. In fact, some of the people
• 38:19
  around left, and then in about three seconds I heard another shot, and
• 38:25
  in three seconds I heard a third shot. My wife, who had a
• 38:30
  hold of my hand, started running and dragging me across the street, and
• 38:35
  I never looked up again at the window. And you know this is a
• 38:40
  statement on the twenty second of nineteen sixty three, So you guys are going
• 38:49
  to be oh, here there is hey. Look who's back and not frozen
• 38:53
  anymore? Hello, Lula and you're on the other side of me. Yeah,
• 38:59
  we can't have that. Hold on a second, Joe, let me
• 39:05
  Okay, that's better. Yeah, well, uh, thank you. They
• 39:13
  were getting tired of me. Uh No, I just uh read some comments
• 39:19
  and then read the first day statement of mister Arnold Roland. Yes, so,
• 39:30
  which you know, and if you want, I will continue pray.
• 39:34
  Do pray to pray, do pray do. This guy, for whatever reason,
• 39:44
  caused a big issue. And I found this letter. Yeah, this
• 39:49
  letter from jay Lee Rankin, and this is very hard to read, uh
• 39:52
  to uh Jaygahoova about Arnold ro Land on March sixty, nineteen sixty four.
• 40:04
  And essentially it says, during the course of his testimony, mister Roland provided
• 40:10
  the commission with certain information about himself and he says the same thing. Hold
• 40:15
  on, he says. Oh, he says that the person he saw had
• 40:20
  a plaid shirt on, and he thought it was red and green, very
• 40:25
  bright color. So that's kind of not lining up with the other people who
• 40:30
  saw whoever else in the green can both be a dark color if you're looking
• 40:36
  at it from far away. Yeah, it depends the color red and green,
• 40:42
  right, yeah, true, true, But he was pretty consistent on
• 40:47
  the plaid, and so during the testimony, a dark plag could still be
• 40:55
  a dark colored sport cut Oh yeah, yeah, like a flannel. Yeah
• 41:04
  yeah, for sure. So I guess mister Rankin got really upset at his
• 41:09
  testimony or really suspicious about it, because he wrote to Hoover and said that
• 41:15
  Roland told me that he is an IQ of one forty seven, Rob one
• 41:22
  forty seven and that's pretty smart, I know. And that's a forty seven
• 41:29
  that makes him double smart, and that through his junior in high school he
• 41:35
  got straight a's, but received a couple of bees in his senior year and
• 41:39
  claims he received his IQ test in May of sixty three. So essentially,
• 41:46
  the Commission aka Rankin requests that your bureau aka Hoover investigate all aspects of mister
• 41:54
  Roland's testimony concerning the person alleged to have been in the southwest corner window.
• 42:04
  So I think Arnold Roland Rob was the only person to say he saw someone
• 42:08
  on the southwest side, which is if you're standing outside the depository, like
• 42:14
  looking at the entrance, it would be on your left right, closer to
• 42:16
  the correct closer to the grassy knoll or the pick up fence, right both,
• 42:22
  And so I don't know why, because he was like one of the
• 42:27
  few people to say that they would do what we're going to get into.
• 42:32
  And he says, the commissioner requests that your bureau investigate everything according to him,
• 42:37
  So what do you think Hoover does, Jago Hoova does? Rob?
• 42:43
  Mm hmm? What does he do? Joe? Well, they how about
• 42:49
  pull all his report cards back to nineteen sixty and kind of refute this.
• 43:00
  I had straight a's for a couple of years, right, never to piss
• 43:04
  off the FBI. I think we might have already been there find out that
• 43:08
  I flew out of college. I'm telling people I graduated. Yes, Yeah,
• 43:17
  so they go back to nineteen sixty I actually, no, nineteen fifty
• 43:22
  nine. Here falled nineteen fifty nine, and these just commission Exhibit twenty six
• 43:28
  forty four when he was in middle school. Yeah, they're going deep on
• 43:31
  this guy. What the hell? I don't get it. They can't have
• 43:35
  this, they can't have anything other than Oswald bro I'm telling you, they
• 43:38
  look for a way to discredit anybody that saw anything remotely not just Boswall.
• 43:45
  It's wild, and you know, I didn't know this. You know,
• 43:51
  James had a good common either. He's like I didn't like realize these couple
• 43:53
  of witnesses, and like I learned something every time you give a topic and
• 43:58
  I look into it, like as we're about learning things looking through the documents,
• 44:02
  and this is great Rob. On April eleventh, nineteen sixty four,
• 44:12
  the FBI is continuing after the report card and interviewing every teacher he had for
• 44:16
  years, right, which is all in commission e zipits they go deeper,
• 44:22
  all right, They're not done. Then the Dallas County Office had a warning
• 44:27
  notice of Arnold Patrick Roland five nine, dark blonde hair, blue eyes.
• 44:32
  This warning notice stated that he passed eleven bad checks essentially in Topeka, Kansas
• 44:38
  during October sixty two. Was he in middle school and stated this subject was
• 44:44
  from Dallas. This description fits Arnold Lewis Roland, and I identified the picture
• 44:51
  on the warning notice as being Arnold Lewis Roland. This warning notice is a
• 44:54
  great rob. This warning notice states that Roland used the aliases of Jack Nicholson,
• 45:01
  a man ahead of his time, Jack Nichols and Alex Johnston. I
• 45:08
  interviewed Miss Annie Turner counselor grocer Tech high School grocer. Yeah, Michael,
• 45:16
  getting where you know? He came in late. I forgot to say hi
• 45:22
  to him. Hello, Mike. She stated that he's continued Joe, That's
• 45:30
  okay, I'm leaning forward a little bit. She stated that she could not
• 45:36
  believe what Roland said. She gave as an example that he lied to her
• 45:42
  about credits he had received while attending high school in Kansas City. She said
• 45:47
  she attempted to confirm the credits he said he obtained and did not receive any
• 45:53
  replies to her letters. She said that she also figured the time that Roland
• 46:00
  was in Kansas City, and she determined she did not think it was possible
• 46:02
  for him to obtain the credits at the time. As Turner stated that she
• 46:07
  read in the Dallas Paper that Arnold Roland said that he had observed certain events
• 46:13
  at Maine ad Houston Streets on November twenty second, sixty three. She said,
• 46:17
  judging from his past history, she and other members of the Grogier Tech
• 46:23
  faculty considered his observations to be untrue or fabricated, and that she would not
• 46:30
  believe them and rob this and the there like six or seven teachers that say
• 46:39
  similar things. They say that he stole books from the library and they got
• 46:44
  him from his locker, and there was a book on communism. I mean
• 46:47
  we've seen this playbook before, right, yeah, yeah, I mean it's
• 46:52
  anything they can find discredit do they are going to find it, and if
• 46:58
  they can't find it, they're going to make some stuff up. So or
• 47:01
  have three witnesses counter you, right, yeah, like in where else case,
• 47:08
  right, unbelievable. It's really it's really crazy actually, and mostly you
• 47:19
  know, most of the people that could corroborate that were obviously not called,
• 47:22
  you know, Richard Brandolph Carr, Carolyn Walter, obviously Miss Henderson was not
• 47:32
  called either. And yeah, that was it I had on the document side
• 47:40
  of these characters we are talking about this episode, rop, yes, and
• 47:49
  I have here a slight small chronology, if you will. So at twelve
• 47:59
  twenty a man in a tan sport code is seen by Richard Randolph car on
• 48:05
  the seventh floor of the school book Depository. Okay, twelve twenty nine,
• 48:12
  a man in a brown suit coat is seen by Carolyn Walter on the fifth
• 48:16
  floor of the school Book Depository, standing next to a gunman. Twelve thirty,
• 48:23
  James Worrel sees a gun firing at the President from a window on the
• 48:28
  fifth or sixth floor, possibly a gun. He only saw six inches of
• 48:32
  him, so it could have been anything hanging out that window above him.
• 48:38
  Sure, I'm gonna put up something that my little summary slide as you read.
• 48:45
  Yeah. Romax starts walking toward the school book depository, keeping the back
• 48:52
  door within his view or a back door within his view. Twelve thirty one,
• 48:57
  Barnett runs to the back area of the school book pository. This will
• 49:00
  be uh Dallas police officer. He encounters Adams and Styles as Victoria Adams and
• 49:07
  Sanders Styles coming out the back door. Did Romac mention them coming out the
• 49:14
  back door? He said, nobody came out the back door, right whoa
• 49:21
  Trey, goodness gracious, Yes, dollars from the dark side. Thank you,
• 49:28
  Trey, appreciated brother, Thank you so much for the best today.
• 49:35
  At twelve thirty two, Barnett returns to the front of the school book depository.
• 49:40
  The K Box Joe news car arrives on scene. At twelve thirty three.
• 49:45
  Romac removes a portion of a barrier, allowing the vehicle to pass.
• 49:50
  Meanwhile, the man in the dark sport coat dashes out the back door.
• 49:54
  Twelve thirty four, the K box car is parked near the school Boks story
• 50:00
  and the man in the tan sport code is seen by Richard Randol car walking
• 50:04
  south on Houston. He gets into a Nash rambler driven by a black man.
• 50:10
  At twelve forty five, Deputy Roger Craig sees quote Oswald escaping in a
• 50:15
  Nash Rambler driven by a dark complexed man. What mind alone? Right,
• 50:27
  So there's your little chronology. Maybe there was somebody else in the rambler and
• 50:34
  not just the dark complex man, you know what I mean? Quite possible,
• 50:39
  So, Joe, there were some other mentions and some other people that
• 50:44
  saw some things that day, and one of them was Marion Baker, you
• 50:51
  know, the first cop to go heroically rushing into the school book depository and
• 50:58
  allegedly being assisted by Roy Truly as they made their way up the stairs and
• 51:01
  supposedly encountered Oswald on the second floor before making their way all the way up
• 51:07
  to the roof. So this is Marion Baker and it's tiny, so pardon
• 51:13
  me. His Affidavid from November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, he said.
• 51:22
  As I entered the door, I saw several people standing around. I
• 51:24
  asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and said he
• 51:29
  was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were.
• 51:32
  I followed the man to the rear of the building, and he said,
• 51:37
  let's take the elevator. The elevator was hung with several floors up, so
• 51:42
  we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor,
• 51:46
  I saw a man walking away from the stairway. There's a lot of problems
• 51:54
  here, and we'll get to them. I called to the man, and
• 52:00
  he turned around and came back towards me. The manager said, oh,
• 52:05
  I know that guy. He works here. I then turned the man loose
• 52:09
  and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white
• 52:15
  man about thirty years old five nine one sixty five, dark hair, and
• 52:19
  wearing a light brown jacket. So who the hell was this guy that he
• 52:28
  saw on the third or fourth floor? I don't know. Oswald didn't have
• 52:37
  his jacket on, right, was it in the damer room or did he
• 52:40
  leave it there? Yeah, but it was like a dark blue cuffer jacket.
• 52:46
  I mean, he did have his rusty brownie orange looking shirt on allegedly,
• 52:53
  but that it's not a jacket and it looks I know, Marian Baker
• 53:00
  was probably a couple of beers short of a six pack, you know,
• 53:06
  country bumpkin style. You know what I'm saying. But as you're running upstairs,
• 53:15
  I would hope that you know the difference between the second floor, which
• 53:20
  is one flight up, and the third or fourth floor, which is much
• 53:27
  further up the stairs. Okay, And this was his first day testimony,
• 53:34
  Joe, and of course changed over time, much like a lot of other
• 53:38
  people's. Of course, imagine that. Yeah, and even if you counted
• 53:45
  like going up the vegetabule steps as a floor, you're still a floor two
• 53:49
  away from that encounter. Yeah right, Yeah, there's no Like I said,
• 53:58
  unless you were just dumb and you didn't, you can't count. I
• 54:04
  mean, seriously, you should know the second floor from the third or fourth
• 54:07
  floor, and a shirt from a jacket be my guess, you know?
• 54:15
  Hi, kitty, Yes, my cat desperately once on my lap. Kah,
• 54:23
  next up amos Ewens. He saw some people as well, and this
• 54:30
  is from his November twenty second Sheriff's Department AFFI David you know. He said
• 54:37
  he was skipping school and stuff, and he saw the President turn the corner
• 54:39
  in front of him, and I waved at him and he waved back.
• 54:44
  I watched the car go down the street, and about that time the car
• 54:47
  got near the black and white sign, I heard a shot. I started
• 54:52
  looking around, and then I looked up in the red brick building. I
• 54:55
  saw a man in a window with a gun and I saw him shoot twice.
• 55:00
  He then stepped back behind some boxes. I could tell the gun was
• 55:04
  a rifle, and it sounded like an automatic rifle by the way he was
• 55:07
  shooting. I just saw a little bit of the barrel and some of the
• 55:12
  trigger housing. This was a white man. He did not have one a
• 55:16
  hat, and he had a bald spot. I just saw this man for
• 55:21
  a few seconds. As far as I know, I had never seen this
• 55:23
  man before. Is he just grabbing Oswald? Doesn't sound like it. I
• 55:32
  mean, Oswald didn't have a bald spot. And you know what, something
• 55:38
  just came to you, Rob, So see, you know, so let's
• 55:43
  assume Oswald is not on the sixth floor, right, he's not shooting,
• 55:45
  but someone else is up there, right, yeah, and they're standing back
• 55:51
  like a couple of witnesses we've talked about right ten to fifteen feet back from
• 55:54
  the windows. Some people, you know, at some point they're drawing it.
• 56:00
  Even if you're three feet back from a sixth floor window, you're gonna
• 56:04
  be hard to see bro from people on the street. But I'm saying that
• 56:08
  angle right down, say back so far, that's the kind of shot that
• 56:14
  would ricochet and hit James. Take just if you were to just make sure
• 56:20
  that there's some type of shot coming from the TSBD, that's the type of
• 56:23
  shot that I feel, would you know, jump up and hit them?
• 56:28
  I don't know, that's just that's a random thought I had. But see
• 56:30
  what a lot of people don't realize is the floor is the windows on these
• 56:35
  floors literally start at your shins or just like a foot off the floor.
• 56:44
  Yeah, so nobody's standing up on any of these floors and shooting out the
• 56:47
  window because only the bottom part of the window gets raised up. So in
• 56:53
  order to shoot out the window, you have to either be crouching or kneeling.
• 56:59
  And if you're standing, you know, that's a big visual difference,
• 57:06
  you know, or else you look like a little a little person, you
• 57:09
  know, walking around up there on your knees. And I think it was
• 57:13
  Carolyn Walter that said that she couldn't see the face of the guy because the
• 57:16
  window was blocking him. I believe it was her. I showed the document.
• 57:22
  I could be wrong, but yeah, I mean it's probably a lair
• 57:24
  or something. But like I said, if you're two three feet back from
• 57:28
  the window, you're not people are not gonna be able to see you or
• 57:30
  get get a good description. They just might know that it looks like there
• 57:35
  was a person there, right, you know, vaguely. So when they're
• 57:38
  estimating how many feet back the person people that they saw, it's not like
• 57:45
  really inaccurate measurement of some of the witnesses we're talking about, Like they can't
• 57:50
  be fifteen feet back like you said and be seen by someone else. No,
• 57:54
  they'd be in the middle of the floor. Nobody could see them,
• 57:58
  right right, unless they were level with them, all right, unless they
• 58:00
  wanted to be seen. Well, I think you could do jump to Jack's
• 58:06
  naked in the middle of the sixth floor. Nobody see you, you know,
• 58:08
  and you might really want to be seen doing it, you know,
• 58:14
  Judith, where are you jumping? Jack? Flash? All right? Next
• 58:20
  up, we got some talk from a fellow by the name of Robert Edwards
• 58:24
  and Ronald Fisher. Robert Edwards and then Affid Davids. The man he saw
• 58:30
  in the window had on a light colored sports shirt, rather short hair,
• 58:36
  was around twenty six years old. Ronald Fisher stated that the man was lightheaded
• 58:43
  and had on an open neck shirt and was in his twenties with a clear
• 58:47
  complexion. When interviewed by the officers of the Dallas Police Department, Fisher said
• 58:53
  pictures of Oswald looked like the man he saw, but he declined a definite
• 58:59
  identification. When later interviewed by the FBI, neither Fisher nor Edwards could identify
• 59:06
  the man from the pictures. Edwards identified the person is having sandy hair,
• 59:10
  and Fisher said the man had light hair. Oswald does not have either.
• 59:16
  So who did they see? You know, I mean, it's all over
• 59:22
  the place. Yeah, you had a lot of light haired descriptions, and
• 59:27
  some of the witnesses we just talked about, and a lot of different clothing
• 59:30
  descriptions classes knock glasses, dark sport coat, white T shirt, open next
• 59:37
  shirt, tan sports coat, sports Yeah, you know, bald spot,
• 59:45
  I mean, tall and thin is another one I had. Yeah, so
• 59:52
  they're all over the place with this stuff. Now, I did want to
• 1:00:00
  bring up a little something something here on the visuals of something that I noticed.
• 1:00:07
  Okay, and I believe Joe, we talked about this before, and
• 1:00:13
  I didn't have the picture handy. Hmm. There's Jack Ruby in front of
• 1:00:19
  the school book depository, not really, but allegedly right there, smack Dad
• 1:00:25
  in the middle. I think that guy looks a little too young to be
• 1:00:30
  Jack Ruby, but it's you know, it's a good shot. Yeah,
• 1:00:36
  it's I mean, it's not it's not out of this world. But you
• 1:00:40
  know, we've I think it was a couple episodes ago talked about all the
• 1:00:44
  Dallas Morning News people. I think it was the Pool of Blood episode of
• 1:00:49
  all the Dallas Morning News either reporters or photographers that said they saw him in
• 1:00:58
  and you know, past twelve third already, maybe closer to one, some
• 1:01:01
  said they lost sight of him. Kind of reminds me of this. All
• 1:01:15
  right. Here's another one that I wanted to talk about. This photo right
• 1:01:22
  here, Joe. As you can see, this is right after the shooting.
• 1:01:28
  The Newmans are still on the ground. A dark complexed man and umbrella
• 1:01:32
  man are still on the curb. Right. You got photographers running all over
• 1:01:37
  the damn place like crazy. And if you look in the background over to
• 1:01:45
  your right, kind of above the umbrella man's head a little to the right
• 1:01:50
  at the at the retaining wall there at the end of the sculpture, the
• 1:01:58
  Yeah, that's a figure kind of stealthily making his way out of there.
• 1:02:06
  Now, let me show you blown up picture of this figure right there.
• 1:02:14
  That's what we call a suspicious man. Man who I mean, I don't
• 1:02:25
  know. It appears like he has a a hand in one pocket, yeah,
• 1:02:31
  and maybe carrying something in his right hand, maybe below the retaining wall,
• 1:02:37
  maybe not, I don't know. It just appears that way, the
• 1:02:40
  way he's stooped and walking. You know, It's just he's definitely in the
• 1:02:49
  shadow. He's all in black. Yeah, yeah, I've you know,
• 1:02:54
  I've seen this picture before and uh it, it's crazy. I never really
• 1:03:00
  known what to think of it. So how long do you think after after
• 1:03:06
  the shots or was that picture taken? If you have dark and blacked an
• 1:03:12
  umbrella man kind of sitting on the curb the reporter's running up, not long
• 1:03:16
  because less than a minute, Yeah, probably. I mean you still have
• 1:03:22
  the motorcade motorcycles. Yeah yeah, I mean you see him right here?
• 1:03:30
  Yeah, no, right here in this one, yeah yeah, you can
• 1:03:32
  still see the motorcade motorcycles. And then moving on to this Gags photo.
• 1:03:39
  All right, the fellow on the other side of the street, that's dark
• 1:03:43
  complexed man making his way out of Deally Plaza. Oh wow, okay,
• 1:03:47
  as the White House Press bus comes forward. That's a great picture. Now
• 1:03:52
  notice in the bottom left hand corner of this photo, but the bubusk lady
• 1:03:58
  is still on this side of the street. Okay, wow. And then
• 1:04:11
  we moved to this photo, which has everybody rushing towards the grassy nole right
• 1:04:18
  right the lake crowd. Yeah, well, right dead center of this photo
• 1:04:25
  is the Babushka lady making her way across the street, whoever she is.
• 1:04:30
  You can see a lot of things in this photo. I can see Charles
• 1:04:34
  brim on the backside of the street with his sn talking to another guy.
• 1:04:42
  I can see what looks to be somebody grabbing Mary Mormon's polaroid maybe possibly,
• 1:04:53
  and then right in front of her, you can see the Howard Hunt figure,
• 1:04:57
  the guy with the trench coat sunglasses hat in the essential spy disguise from
• 1:05:02
  the sixties, making his way across the street as well. There's just a
• 1:05:08
  lot going on here, you know, there is. So by this time,
• 1:05:14
  dark complexed man is gone. He's out. He's gone, because in
• 1:05:18
  this photo you can clearly see the bishka lady's still on this side of the
• 1:05:21
  street. And what he does is he makes his way down probably to the
• 1:05:27
  steps or so, and then crosses the street, cuts over the other grassy
• 1:05:32
  area in between Elman Commerce and never seen or heard from again. I just
• 1:05:42
  thought that was interesting. No, that's that's very interesting. And I've seen
• 1:05:45
  this picture, but I haven't seen it in a long time. I will
• 1:05:48
  admit it, and Rob this is probably so. He walks to the steps
• 1:05:54
  right to us, right there, and then he crosses you know that field
• 1:05:59
  right and that's where that new video came up on the ed forum and other
• 1:06:06
  places around the JFP recently, where he was kind of like wobbling or or
• 1:06:11
  no, walking with a limp. That was it. Well, that was
• 1:06:15
  a I think that's a stretch. I mean you're talking about you're talking about
• 1:06:20
  some old, grainy, bumpy footage anyway, you know what I mean?
• 1:06:25
  So who really knows, and it was like what three three seconds long?
• 1:06:29
  I mean, right, but I'm saying that would have been after he crossed
• 1:06:32
  the street, right, Yes, you're correct, yeah, yeah, exactly
• 1:06:40
  exact the mundo Joe. So, now, in the course of doing a
• 1:06:46
  little research for this show, and by the way, thank you the researcher
• 1:06:54
  William Weston who whose work on the Man in Dark sports Coat was immensely hopeful
• 1:07:00
  to our research, I came across something else, and it has to do
• 1:07:09
  with the Well, I'll just read it to you because it's interesting, very
• 1:07:19
  interesting. There may have been some shady stuff going on in school book depository,
• 1:07:24
  folks. Shocker, shocker, I know right, It's like in Casablanca.
• 1:07:30
  I'm shocked. Gambling is going on. You're winning, sir. So
• 1:07:36
  a couple of things stood out to me in this article. The first one
• 1:07:41
  is says mister roy s truly the warehouse superintendent who has been very cooperative.
• 1:07:46
  Now this is in a letter to the Warrant Commission from Hoover. So he's
• 1:07:50
  saying, mister roy truly warehouse superintendent has been very cooperative with this bureau in
• 1:07:56
  the past, strongly objected to the printing of all employees, as he felt
• 1:08:03
  it would seriously handicap the work of his firm. Mister Trully stated that there
• 1:08:09
  were only about twenty employees who would have had the occasion to actually handle the
• 1:08:14
  cartons in question, and he desired the fingerprinting to be limited to this group,
• 1:08:19
  specifically of people. As a result of these objections, the FBI modified
• 1:08:28
  its demand according to the limitation imposed. How can a mere warehouse manager dictate
• 1:08:33
  to the FBI what it could and could not do in the investigation of a
• 1:08:40
  crime of the assassination of the president. That's a good point. That's a
• 1:08:45
  very good point. You know, who the hell is Roy truly? You
• 1:08:49
  know, if you're Hoover in the FBI, I'm your fingerprint everybody, you
• 1:08:54
  know. Yeah, but Hoover's kind of writing like a I don't want to
• 1:08:59
  say letter of record comidation, but kind of backing up his How would you
• 1:09:03
  describe it? Their shortcomings? Okay, I don't know. I mean,
• 1:09:15
  you know, fingerprinting the boxes didn't really do a whole lot for the FBI.
• 1:09:26
  Well, in the Sniper's nest, there were four boxes that had twenty
• 1:09:30
  eight identifiable prints. Oswald were two palm prints and one fingerprint. Twenty four
• 1:09:38
  prints were made by two law enforcement officials, but one palm print cannot be
• 1:09:43
  identified. The unmatched print might mean an accomplice. To settle the matter,
• 1:09:48
  the FBI needed to set a print from everybody employed, a total of sixty
• 1:09:53
  nine people. Very simple procedure, and that's when they ran into an unexpected
• 1:09:58
  wall of resistance from Roy Truley. Now, if you figure of all the
• 1:10:04
  people that we know that we're working in the school of depository, picking orders,
• 1:10:10
  working on all these floors, that they would have found a lot more
• 1:10:14
  fingerprints than just Oswald and law enforcement. I mean, come on, yeah,
• 1:10:24
  you would have had every one of that floor crew pretty much moving boxes.
• 1:10:30
  I would think if you would have had Frasier's prints, you would have
• 1:10:33
  had And I'm sure they only were allowed to print those twenty guys who checked
• 1:10:41
  orders, picked orders, put stuff away, and that they knew were working
• 1:10:47
  on the floor that day, you know. So for them not to find
• 1:10:53
  anybody else's except Oswald and cops is a little sus Yeah, that's a lot
• 1:11:00
  of subs I think. So let's see what else. Okay, So in
• 1:11:15
  late nineteen seventy four, while working as a journalist in Dallas, a man
• 1:11:18
  by the name of it Elsie Glaze met a woman who began working for the
• 1:11:24
  Book Depository in nineteen and sixty nine Joe sixty nine sixty nine, six years
• 1:11:33
  after the assassination. She was no longer working there in nineteen seventy four when
• 1:11:40
  she spoke to Glaze, her supervisor was William Shelley. When she did work
• 1:11:45
  there, the company, she said, had a strange way of introducing new
• 1:11:49
  employees to their duties. She and another new employee were approached by two men
• 1:11:58
  who produced idllets and identified themselves as quote government agents. They were taken to
• 1:12:05
  an empty room and given questionnaires to fill out. These exams were full of
• 1:12:12
  oddly irrelevant questions, calling for opinions on various topics of the day, especially
• 1:12:17
  social issues like do you think hippies are dirty? Would you do acid?
• 1:12:25
  You know? Is nix? And a crook you know? Obediently, these
• 1:12:35
  two employees wrote out their answers, and when they were done, they gave
• 1:12:39
  the sheets back and then the short palls that followed. One of the examiners
• 1:12:43
  bluntly asked, have you ever been recruited by the FBI? Or the CIA.
• 1:12:48
  The two employees were stunned. As ordinary office workers, they were only
• 1:12:53
  doing minor clerical tasks at low wages. Why would anyone think they came from
• 1:12:58
  the FBI or the CIA. While it was true the book Depository had acquired
• 1:13:02
  the notoriety of being the place where Oswald shot the president by nineteen sixty nine,
• 1:13:08
  you know that should have been a pretty distant history, you know what
• 1:13:11
  I mean. Yet even more disturbing were the next questions that came to mind.
• 1:13:17
  If the book Depository was just an insignificant little company, why would it
• 1:13:21
  be attracted the attention of the two biggest intelligence establishments in the country. So
• 1:13:30
  Glaze asked the woman if she and her coworker were the only ones subjected to
• 1:13:33
  this kind of treatment. No, they were not the only ones. Background
• 1:13:39
  checks on new employees were done as a routine procedure at the book Depository,
• 1:13:44
  and after listening to the woman's account, Glaize decided to check it out.
• 1:13:48
  He contacted her former supervisor, William Shelley Bill Shelley and asked to meet with
• 1:13:55
  him. Shelley agreed to this request and even allowed the reporter to take notes
• 1:14:00
  and use a tape recorder. The meeting took place at the Book Depository warehouse
• 1:14:05
  near the intersection of Royal Lane, Big Mike, we can figure out where
• 1:14:11
  this is Royal Lane and Interstate thirty five on the far northwest side of Dallas.
• 1:14:17
  The company had moved from the Elm Street location in nineteen seventy. The
• 1:14:25
  information that Glaze was gathering must have been extensive, for the two men had
• 1:14:28
  numerous meetings together, yet only a few disclosures are provided in the letters.
• 1:14:34
  The most significant one appears in the nineteen eighty nine letters. Mister Shelley claims
• 1:14:40
  to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA.
• 1:14:45
  This extraordinary revelation goes far and explaining the mysteries of the Book Depository,
• 1:14:50
  and a discussion and a discussion of its implications will be given later. So
• 1:14:57
  Shelley told Glaze that he had been the supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald, and
• 1:15:01
  then after the assassination, the Dallas police placed Shelley under arrest and formally charged
• 1:15:05
  him with the murder of the president. Say what do what now? A
• 1:15:16
  lot of people think that Shelley might be, you know, exaggerating things.
• 1:15:20
  Here a little bit. But we actually have a picture of Bill Shelley allegedly
• 1:15:30
  right there with a shotgun in his face, and behind him is Bonnie Ray
• 1:15:38
  Williams, and behind him is Danny Arsay. Behind him looks to be another
• 1:15:45
  cop in plain clothes. Right, and they shoved all these guys into the
• 1:15:51
  squad car and took him down to the station. Now what did all these
• 1:15:57
  guys have in common? Because these weren't the only guys. Remember, they
• 1:16:00
  took Shelley or I'm sorry, they took love lady down. They took up
• 1:16:10
  what was his name Doherty? Doherty? What was his first name? Jack,
• 1:16:14
  Jordy, Jack Doherty. Yes, the elusive Jack Doherty, the only
• 1:16:19
  one unaccounted for the TSBD. And yes, that's coming from bart not me.
• 1:16:26
  Yeah, well I think I stumbled upon a picture of Jack Doherty,
• 1:16:30
  believe it or not. Ro before you go to this the next picture.
• 1:16:34
  Yes, you know, if you're looking at Shelley and you go to the
• 1:16:39
  right. Sorry, there's this guy that people have talked about and he might
• 1:16:45
  have a Tan Sport quote. Oh yeah, the fat guy under the tree.
• 1:16:50
  I've seen a lot of threads on that, and it's it's it's funny.
• 1:16:55
  I have no idea, but he's just watching. He likes to watch.
• 1:17:00
  It's kind of shady that he's like lens In with a tree. I
• 1:17:04
  just have my hands in my pockets playing pocketpool, watching people get arrested around
• 1:17:09
  here. He's a big boy. Dean Andrews No. Okay, So here's
• 1:17:16
  the picture I think I found of Jack Doherty. Okay, I believe somebody
• 1:17:24
  found a picture of Jack Doherty there on the left when he was in the
• 1:17:29
  Air Force or whatever he was in. He was in the military, right,
• 1:17:32
  yeah, and that that's why he had some type of PTSD, which
• 1:17:36
  is why I truly said in his work testimony he was kind of slow,
• 1:17:41
  right allegedly, yes, right, well, right, yeah. So now
• 1:17:48
  if you look on the right hand side, there under the red arrow behind
• 1:17:55
  Danny Arse, there's a guy who looks a lot like this squinty eyed guy
• 1:18:01
  on the left, who people say is Jack Doherty with his ear. I
• 1:18:05
  mean the ears are giveaway, right, I haven't seen this before. Guys,
• 1:18:12
  Rob likes to surprise me. So the ears, I mean that they
• 1:18:18
  stand out. It's dead giveaway. So there's Jack Doherty. He was obviously
• 1:18:25
  in this group of people with Bill Shelley, with Bonnie Ray Williams, with
• 1:18:31
  Danny Arsa And we can't see him in this picture, okay, because he's
• 1:18:35
  probably behind him somewhere. And these people were arrested that day and taken down
• 1:18:43
  to the station. And if we believe Buell Frasier, who had affidavit pushed
• 1:18:50
  in front of him, you know that they wanted him to sign as being
• 1:18:57
  an accomplished to the murder of the president, then it's not out of the
• 1:19:00
  realm of possibility that what Bill Shelley is telling this Elsie Glaze reporter dude is
• 1:19:06
  out of the realm of possibility, That's all I'm saying. Yeah, I
• 1:19:12
  mean, at that point Oswalt wasn't obtained yet, right, he wasn't in
• 1:19:17
  custody. So there are numerous backup plans going on just in case. I
• 1:19:24
  mean, if you think this thing goes down without a backup plan, I
• 1:19:30
  have some news for you about trade craft. Yeah. So, the charges
• 1:19:34
  against Shelley were soon dropped and he was released. Since that day, at
• 1:19:39
  various times, journalists representing several newspapers and magazines approached him with offers of a
• 1:19:44
  huge money for his personal account and the offers were all turned down until he
• 1:19:49
  decided to finally meet with Glaze in nineteen seventy four. So, when Glaze
• 1:19:56
  tried to get permission to quote him in his article, Shelley refused and insists
• 1:20:00
  that even his name was not to be printed. In spite of this setback,
• 1:20:03
  Glazed, without discouraged, he went back to the woman and told her
• 1:20:05
  that he was going to do a story on the book depository, and then
• 1:20:10
  he was going to talk to the FBI and possibly get some more information than
• 1:20:14
  When the woman heard this, she was absolutely appalled Joe. The very idea
• 1:20:19
  that he was writing an article filled her with terror. She told him that
• 1:20:25
  if he persisted in his efforts to publicize this story, she would emphatically deny
• 1:20:30
  these charges. The prospect for an article, irretrievedly came to an end,
• 1:20:38
  and Glazed on their choice but to go home empty handed. Now. It
• 1:20:41
  was not long after his departure that he felt obliged to speak to the woman
• 1:20:44
  again. What he intended to say is not mentioned in the letters, but
• 1:20:47
  perhaps he wanted to make an apology to her. In any case, it
• 1:20:53
  was only a few hours since his last conversation with her, and he decided
• 1:20:56
  to go back to her apartment to see her again. When he arrived at
• 1:21:00
  her apartment, he was surprised to find it totally empty. Joe, and
• 1:21:05
  it looked as if no one had ever even lived there. Now Glades knew
• 1:21:11
  that this woman had a husband and a kid, and they were all gone
• 1:21:15
  too. No trace of any of the three ever being there was found.
• 1:21:21
  So this place is cleaned out. People gone, furniture gone, cleaned up,
• 1:21:26
  all within three or four hours. Wow. Allegedly, Yeah, I
• 1:21:33
  think yeah. The mystified reporter could not understand how three people could have moved
• 1:21:40
  away so quickly, So the next day he went to the woman's place of
• 1:21:43
  employment and found out that she never showed up for work and no one knew
• 1:21:46
  where she was or how to get in touch with her. Later inquiries revealed
• 1:21:50
  that she did not even stop by to pick up her final paycheck, and
• 1:21:56
  his questifying them the most promising lead and you'll love this, Joe Glaize had
• 1:22:01
  was the fact that the husband of this woman had once been a musician in
• 1:22:05
  the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. Right, mister bood Dangles Knitty Gritty Dirt Band,
• 1:22:16
  Right, They could have performed. That's like being the president of the
• 1:22:24
  itty bitty titty Committee. Hey, I take that appointment. So at about
• 1:22:43
  the same time he was conducting his search, Glaize went to get his interview
• 1:22:46
  notes and tapes and found they had inexplicitly disappeared from his house. One day,
• 1:22:54
  shortly after, he heard a commotion outside of his apartment, and he
• 1:22:57
  looked out the window and saw an estimated twenty Dallas pulled up in front of
• 1:23:01
  his house. They lingered for nearly an hour, shouting in a highly threatening
• 1:23:06
  manner and pointing their pistols at his window. Frightened for his life, he'd
• 1:23:12
  immediately left the city. Right fast forward to December of nineteen seventy seven,
• 1:23:19
  Joe, while working as a reporter for the Avalanche Journal in Lubwock, Texas,
• 1:23:25
  he sent a letter to the HSCA. He wrote that he had some
• 1:23:29
  information regarding the assassination of President Kennedy, gave a brief sketch of his investigation
• 1:23:32
  of the book depository, and the closing paragraphs of the letter, he wrote,
• 1:23:38
  I must admit that my own fear of getting involved in the investigation that's
• 1:23:41
  prevented me from writing you earlier. I apologize. The reply of the HSCA
• 1:23:48
  sent was a form letter that read, dear miss Glaze. The HSCA had
• 1:23:57
  mistakenly thought that he was a woman, giving the name Elsie, which is
• 1:24:01
  understandable. HC ahead another time again, Yeah, thank you for your letter.
• 1:24:08
  It has been directed to the Deputy Chief Council in charge of the investigation
• 1:24:12
  lot for his review. Your interest in the work of our committee is appreciated.
• 1:24:15
  Sincerely, Gee, Robert BLAKEE. Blakey, Chief Counsel and Director.
• 1:24:23
  Now fast forward eleven years after that, Glady's wrote a letter to somebody named
• 1:24:29
  Doug Killiner and Frank Morrow of the Alternative Information Network what eighty eight? Yeah
• 1:24:40
  nine. I think he also sent them a copy of the reply it got
• 1:24:46
  from Blakey. Somehow, a copy of both these letters ended up in the
• 1:24:50
  hands of researcher Larry Ray Harris, and his own letter to me, Harris
• 1:24:56
  wrote, I don't recall its origins with clarity. I think it was given
• 1:25:00
  to me by a professor at Southern Methodist University here in Dallas. Regardless,
• 1:25:04
  it ended up in my files around the time we opened the JFK Center in
• 1:25:09
  nineteen eighty nine be easy to verify. Number one if a reporter named Glaze
• 1:25:15
  ever worked for a lubblic newspaper. Number two if a journalist named Glaze was
• 1:25:19
  living in Dallas in seventy four to seventy five, and number three if there
• 1:25:24
  is was an alternative information that worked in Austin, or if somebody named Kelener
• 1:25:29
  and Morrow are real people and remember receiving this letter. If it is true
• 1:25:33
  that Shelley was affiliated in some way with the CIA or US intelligence, that
• 1:25:36
  would be a disturbing and potentially significant development. So what are you going to
• 1:25:43
  do? Well? Fast forward to nineteen ninety three, when they called up
• 1:25:49
  the Avalanche Journal and asked for mister Glaze. No one by that name was
• 1:25:55
  currently employed, and neither were there any records of a Glaze and files or
• 1:26:00
  the personnel department. Yet the absence of records do not necessarily mean he never
• 1:26:05
  worked there. It was regular practice to discard the records after three years.
• 1:26:13
  Was there anyone who had been around long enough to remember a journalist named Blaze?
• 1:26:16
  The personnel director said that she had been with the paper for about as
• 1:26:19
  long as anyone, since nineteen eighty two and never knew anyone by that name.
• 1:26:26
  Now there strike one, and I had tried to reach either Kelener or
• 1:26:32
  Morrow at the Alternative Information Network, which turned out to be a real thing.
• 1:26:38
  Kellner was the one who took my call, and I told him who
• 1:26:41
  I was and that I had a letter addressed to him and his partner regarding
• 1:26:44
  the Kennedy assassination. And after I read the contents, Kellner said he never
• 1:26:49
  got it. It was odd. He said that I should have a letter
• 1:26:54
  in which he was named as a recipient, but he had never seen it.
• 1:26:58
  He asked it a copy be sent to his home and not to the
• 1:27:00
  business, and that after he read it he would check into it. So
• 1:27:03
  two weeks later I made a follow up phone call and asked Kellan her if
• 1:27:06
  he found out anything, and he said that he showed the letter Tomorrow,
• 1:27:11
  who said that he vaguely remembered it, but could not give any additional information
• 1:27:14
  regarding the contents or the author. So that's as far as things went in
• 1:27:18
  ninety three. And then fast forward to nineteen ninety nine, a researcher named
• 1:27:25
  Steve gall checked the National Archives website and found that someone named Glaze had written
• 1:27:29
  to the HSCA that was When they finally found out the full name of the
• 1:27:33
  reporter, Dean Blade, a search of the Internet revealed that a man with
• 1:27:39
  the same name had a current email address in Austin, Texas. Sent two
• 1:27:43
  messages to that address and received no response. The next lead that had to
• 1:27:47
  be tracked down was the identity of the man who had been a member of
• 1:27:49
  the Nitty Gritty Dirt band the Eddy Bitty Tenny Committee. The band started out
• 1:27:55
  in nineteen sixty six as a jug band in Long Beach, California. They
• 1:28:00
  became known for their unique blend of country in western and rock and roll.
• 1:28:04
  Among the original musicians were John mcewn, Jeff Hannah, Bruce Conkel, Ralph
• 1:28:10
  Barr, Leslie Thompson, and Jimmy Fadden. After appearing in a movie called
• 1:28:15
  Paint Your Wagon, the band went through some hard times. In nineteen sixty
• 1:28:20
  eight, a meeting was held in the manager's Hollywood office and the group decided
• 1:28:25
  to break up. But wait, the Nitty Gritty Band broke up, Yes,
• 1:28:34
  but there's good news. A year or two later, the members of
• 1:28:39
  the band, with the exception of Kunkle and Barr, decided to try again,
• 1:28:43
  and a new member from Philly named Jimmy Ibbitson was added on, and
• 1:28:48
  this time they achieved commercial success in nineteen seventy with a song called mister boul
• 1:28:55
  Jangles. Right Yeah. In nineteen seventy seven, the group acquired the distinction
• 1:29:02
  of being the first American band to tour the Soviet Union. It's your Fun
• 1:29:08
  Fact Friday. They are still active as a band, at least up to
• 1:29:15
  May nineteen ninety nine, and just they just released a new album called Bang
• 1:29:18
  Bang Bang Bang Bang Banging great title. Yes, the problem with the Nitty
• 1:29:32
  Gritty Dirt Band is it was basically a very loose band. Like you know,
• 1:29:45
  if their buddies were over, they were in the band, and then
• 1:29:48
  like they moved on after a couple of weeks and some other some other people
• 1:29:53
  came by and played different instruments and they were in the band. And then
• 1:29:57
  a couple of weeks later, you know, your cousin from Boston shows up
• 1:30:01
  and now he's in the band. Right. They had members that would come
• 1:30:04
  and go all the time, like a jam circle, drum circle, like
• 1:30:09
  Yeah, So he decided to contact Leslie Thompson, a former member, former
• 1:30:15
  founding member who is now a goldsmith in Fairfax, Virginia. He left the
• 1:30:20
  band at the end of seventy three. Shortly afterwards, the band went through
• 1:30:25
  a large turnover musicians, and the member spoken of by Glaze was definitely not
• 1:30:32
  one of the original seven, Thompson said, but he might have been one
• 1:30:36
  of the thirty odd temporary musicians who were passing in and out of the band.
• 1:30:42
  A couple of those names, excuse me, you may have heard of
• 1:30:46
  one of them, Joe Kenny Loggins. I haven't you are so young?
• 1:30:56
  Are you outdating me again? Dude? This is Kenny Logins, straight eighties
• 1:31:01
  bro Okay, I was born in eighty six. What do you want from
• 1:31:05
  me? Was Kenny Logins? Footloose helped me out here in the comments section
• 1:31:13
  What I feeling food Loose? You know, I think so Highway to the
• 1:31:18
  danger Zone top from I know that that's an epic song, of course,
• 1:31:25
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, that's Kenny Loggins, Loggins and Messina.
• 1:31:32
  Okay. After he left the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, obviously, yeah,
• 1:31:39
  I wasn't paying his bills anymore. So it obviously wasn't Kenny Logins who
• 1:31:45
  was the mysterious man he was looking for. So next check what we know
• 1:31:53
  about Bill Shelley. So at the time the assassination occurred, Shelley was standing
• 1:31:59
  on the steps of the book Depository with love Lady and Fraser. The Autin's
• 1:32:03
  photograph of the limousine under fire confirms the presidence of love Lady on the steps,
• 1:32:09
  but does not clearly depict Shelley or Fraser. About a minute after the
• 1:32:14
  assassination, two female employees in the book Depository and Love Lady in the back
• 1:32:20
  of the building, just about in front of the two freight elevators by the
• 1:32:25
  back door. One lady said, I believe the president has been shot.
• 1:32:32
  Now. We talked about this at the girl on the stairs and hear them
• 1:32:36
  changing her testimony and this that and the other. Well, you know,
• 1:32:43
  worre Shelley and love Lady posted up at the back door by Truly. After
• 1:32:50
  the two women ran out the back door, Truly and Marion Baker rushed into
• 1:32:57
  the front door. They were going up to the roof to serve for a
• 1:33:00
  gunman, and according to Baker's testimony, he saw two white men sitting by
• 1:33:04
  the stairs, love Lady and Shelley, so he saw him Victoria Adams and
• 1:33:13
  Sandersius saw them. See. According to Shelley, he and Lovelady were appointed
• 1:33:24
  by Truly to guard the stairs and the elevators. Shelley and love Lady had
• 1:33:32
  to have seen the escape of one of the assassins from their vantage point.
• 1:33:39
  About a minute or two after Trulli and Baker went up the stairs, a
• 1:33:42
  witness on the street saw a man and a dark sport coat running out the
• 1:33:45
  back door. So if those two were posted back there right then they had
• 1:33:50
  to see whoever left the building for sure. Now, whether or not they
• 1:33:56
  thought it was maybe some stiff that worked up on the fourth floor for some
• 1:34:00
  book company. You know, who knows a well dressed guy with the sport
• 1:34:05
  code one who knows it's possible because they didn't cold you know, what's what's
• 1:34:13
  what's the I'm looking for? They didn't intermingle, you know with the globally
• 1:34:18
  workers. You know, these guys wore suits and ties to work. These
• 1:34:21
  guys, you know, we're t shirts and jeans. So and weren't some
• 1:34:27
  people are prohibited from going actually to the second floor. Yeah, if you
• 1:34:32
  were black on the second floor, got for a bit and uh yeah,
• 1:34:42
  good lord. Ah, So the man was no doubt the same one seen
• 1:34:51
  at a fifth floor window standing next to a man arm with a rifle.
• 1:34:56
  After the shooting ended, the man in the dark Sport Code took an elevator
• 1:34:59
  down the ground floor well. At the same time Trulli and Baker were going
• 1:35:02
  up the stairs. As a call per headed for the back door. He
• 1:35:06
  would have had to play it pass Shelley and Lovelady in order to exit the
• 1:35:10
  building. Now, about a minute or two after the man and the Dark
• 1:35:15
  Sports Code dashed out the back door, NBC News reporter Robert McNeil came in
• 1:35:19
  through the front door. Okay, not the liar of Pierce Allman. Okay,
• 1:35:26
  who narwait and narrates your way through the sixth floor museum. This is
• 1:35:30
  McNeil from the McNeil Lair Hour, which is probably predates Joe as well.
• 1:35:36
  But it was a big thing on Sunday morning, big political show. You
• 1:35:41
  loved it. Lots of financial horse nonsense. And then in a written account
• 1:35:47
  of what he saw, he said that he was surprised to see three men
• 1:35:50
  totally oblivious to the chaos outside, standing by a payphone in the lobby of
• 1:35:59
  the school Bok depository. He says, and I quote I went immediately into
• 1:36:04
  the clear space on the ground floor and asked, where is the phone.
• 1:36:10
  There were, as I recall, three men there, all I think,
• 1:36:13
  in shirt sleeves. What on recollection strikes me as possibly significant is that all
• 1:36:17
  three seemed to be exceedingly calm and relaxed compared to the pandemonium which existed right
• 1:36:24
  outside the front door. I did not pay attention to this at the time,
• 1:36:28
  and I asked the first man. I saw a man who was telephoning
• 1:36:30
  from a pillar in the middle of the room where I could call from,
• 1:36:34
  and he pointed me to another man near the door, who pointed to an
• 1:36:38
  office. When I got to the phone, two of the lines were lit
• 1:36:41
  up. I made my call and left. I was in too much of
• 1:36:44
  a hurry to remember what the three men look like, but their manner was
• 1:36:47
  very relaxed, very relaxed. So the man using the pet phone inside was
• 1:36:56
  quite probably Bill Shelley, for in his Affidavid made out the same afternoon,
• 1:37:00
  Shelley said that I went back into the building. I went inside and I
• 1:37:04
  called my wife and I told her what happened. So about a minute or
• 1:37:10
  two after McNeil saw the three calm men, between twelve thirty five and twelve
• 1:37:15
  forty, Oswald had a five to ten minute chat with his supervisor, Bill
• 1:37:20
  Shelley. According to an FBI report of the first interrogation of Oswald in the
• 1:37:26
  Dallas Homicide Office, Oswald stated that he took his coke down to the first
• 1:37:31
  floor and stood around and had lunch in the employee's lunch room. Thereafter went
• 1:37:35
  outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with forming Bill Shelley, and
• 1:37:41
  thereafter went home. He stated he left work because, in his opinion,
• 1:37:45
  based upon the remarks of Bill Shelley, he did not believe there was going
• 1:37:47
  to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building.
• 1:37:51
  Dr But the timing and lo cation of Oswald's departure from the book depository correlates
• 1:38:03
  somewhat with the appearance of a Nash Rambler on Elm Street driven by a dark
• 1:38:08
  skinned man. So, between twelve forty and twelve forty five, Roger Craig
• 1:38:12
  here's a loud whistle and looked up to see Oswald running down the grassy slope
• 1:38:16
  in front of the depository. Oswald opened the passenger door of the Nash Rambler
• 1:38:19
  and got in the car was last scene speeding towards oak Cliff. If Oswald
• 1:38:26
  had been talking to Shelley prior to his departure, then there can be no
• 1:38:30
  doubt that Shelley had seen him getting away. But not long after Oswald left
• 1:38:33
  the scene, Shelley told truly that Oswald was missing. How he came to
• 1:38:39
  the conclusion was never publicly disco disclosed, but if he saw him leaving,
• 1:38:44
  yes, he would obviously know. This. Truly notified will Fritz, who
• 1:38:49
  immediately thought that it was important to hold that man. God damn, gotta
• 1:38:55
  hold that man, Joe, he getting away. That's our boy. Yep,
• 1:39:00
  cap'n will Friz, capture rate son. What you know about deb I
• 1:39:09
  know a lot about it. But uh, he wasn't the only one Oswalt
• 1:39:13
  to be reported missing during the so called roll call. If you want to
• 1:39:17
  use military terms, this is true. This is true. Now. The
• 1:39:24
  problem with the whole bill Shelley as a CIA operative out after he got out
• 1:39:31
  of the military in nineteen and forty five, you know, is that the
• 1:39:38
  CIA wasn't even created yet till nineteen forty seven, although the Office of Strategic
• 1:39:45
  Services was which was basically the precursor to the CIA. Okay, he says
• 1:39:55
  during World War Two he worked a little bit in defense contracting plants and October
• 1:40:01
  twenty ninety, nineteen forty five. After getting out of the military, he
• 1:40:08
  began working in nineteen forty five for the Book Depository. Eighteen years later,
• 1:40:15
  in nineteen sixty three, he was holding the position of assistant manager of the
• 1:40:19
  quote miscellaneous department. Joe, what do you think the miscellaneous department was?
• 1:40:27
  I think I love that appropriately named for sure. Yeah, he's the assistant
• 1:40:35
  manager of whatever the hell he says. He's the assistant manager of that day,
• 1:40:42
  that day, Joe, you know what, he was assistant manager of
• 1:40:45
  replacing the sixth floor floor. That's what he was an assistant manager of.
• 1:40:51
  That definitely falls under the miscellan's department. And setting up Oswald as well.
• 1:41:00
  Let's see here, I'm skimming, skimming, Let's see. Yeah, they
• 1:41:16
  try to tie it back to uh DH Bird who was a colonel in the
• 1:41:21
  Civil Air Patrol who actually owned the building in the school of Depository of all
• 1:41:25
  heard that Jazz before and Lee Harvey Oswell knowing David Ferry and all being in
• 1:41:30
  the Civil Air Patrol that d H. Bird actually went to Moissant Airport in
• 1:41:40
  Louisiana to give speeches to the cadets of the Civil Air Patrol. But I
• 1:41:45
  think that's a little bit of stretch trying to connect D. H. Bird
• 1:41:48
  to a young Lee Harvey Oswell. But yeah, I mean it brings me
• 1:41:53
  back to what st Patrick said on Quick Hits, right, like, there
• 1:41:59
  could be connecttions and you can make them to be what you want them to
• 1:42:03
  be. But just because someone was in the Civil Air Patrol, another person
• 1:42:08
  was in the Civil Air Patrol. I mean, I'm not talking about like
• 1:42:12
  in the same picture like Ferry and Oswald. I'm just saying, like,
• 1:42:14
  you know, like you can draw whatever like inference you want from it,
• 1:42:18
  right, And I don't know, it made a lot of sense when he
• 1:42:25
  said that, So it reminded me of that. Yes, I would agree,
• 1:42:32
  But yeah, that's about all I found Joe digging into this whole hot
• 1:42:38
  miss of the scoop up to closetory and seeing somebody in the dark sport code
• 1:42:44
  running out of that place. Look, obviously there's a lot of questions that
• 1:42:49
  will never have answers to Joe. When it comes to November twenty second,
• 1:42:55
  nineteen sixty three, and we can sit here and speculate all day about who
• 1:42:59
  saw what and who you want to believe, and who was telling the truth
• 1:43:01
  and who was full of crip? Who knows, who really knows. It
• 1:43:09
  sucks, you know, but you just kind of got to use your best
• 1:43:13
  judgment and who had corroborating statements as early as the twenty second or twenty third
• 1:43:20
  or twenty fourth, and try to deduct what you can. And that's what
• 1:43:25
  we try to do on this show. I know that for sure, and
• 1:43:31
  will probably never be done. Yeah, you know, I can only hope
• 1:43:36
  that some more undeveloped film comes to light, you know, founding somebody's grandparents
• 1:43:43
  addict, you know, from November twenty second, nineteen sixty three in Dallas,
• 1:43:48
  and like like Kennethan and Alex from last show, Hey, keep buying
• 1:43:55
  that stuff. If you live in Dallas, you should be hitting up the
• 1:43:59
  antique mo thrift doors, excuse me, seeing if you can find any kind
• 1:44:04
  of old film reel to real cameras slides. You never know what you could
• 1:44:12
  find, you know. No, just like that other Martin film, you
• 1:44:18
  know, crazy stuff. Yeah, and yeah, very fascinating And I have
• 1:44:28
  to say one last thing. Shelley has always been a person to me that
• 1:44:33
  there is more under the surface too, just for sure. And I don't
• 1:44:40
  know how to get under that surface. I'm sure like people like Bar and
• 1:44:44
  everyone else have done pretty much all that could be done with Shelley, but
• 1:44:48
  something just doesn't sit right with me. I don't know image truly. Yeah.
• 1:44:55
  Well, a lot of people are saying too that, you know,
• 1:44:58
  the CIA could have been using that school book depository, that company as a
• 1:45:03
  front to run guns, you know, down through Louisiana and eventually to the
• 1:45:11
  South America, Nicaragua, Cuba, whatever. I mean, who's gonna who's
• 1:45:15
  gonna stop a book truck? Yeah, I know, with big boxes in
• 1:45:20
  there that say books on them, you know. But then on the false
• 1:45:27
  bottom, you know, there's one hundred guns. There's one hundred man Nicker
• 1:45:30
  carcandos stuffed in the bottom of the palette. Yeah, but who knows.
• 1:45:34
  There's there's so many great articles about out there that talk about this kind of
• 1:45:39
  stuff. There's one I did to show about a long time ago, called
• 1:45:42
  the Spider the Web, the spider Web of the Book Depository. It's just
• 1:45:49
  it gets crazy, is that, like gil or no, no, no,
• 1:45:57
  this is probably way back in the embarrassing day. Definitely j before Joe,
• 1:46:08
  definitely BJ. But before we get off here, folks, we want
• 1:46:15
  to thank you very much for always showing up and supporting us. You guys
• 1:46:20
  rock. It's always a fun time in here. And I apologize to everybody
• 1:46:26
  for my shit camera. It turns out I needed to reset my router anyway,
• 1:46:33
  I'm not all shaky and everything, so sorry about the beginning of the
• 1:46:41
  show. I apologize and it will not happen again. It will not.
• 1:46:46
  And also, if you're thinking about going to Lancer this year in Dallas,
• 1:46:54
  down in the description for this very video, there's a link. Use that
• 1:46:59
  link. Put the code Gunman ten in when you buy any ticket, doesn't
• 1:47:04
  matter what kind of ticket it is, and you will get a ten percent
• 1:47:09
  discount and you will also help out this show. So if you're going to
• 1:47:14
  answer this year, hey, do us a favor and buy your tickets through
• 1:47:19
  our link right become not to save ten percent. You might even see one
• 1:47:27
  or both of us there. You never know. Yeah, Joe will give
• 1:47:30
  everyone ten dollars from his own pocket. I'll buy everyone a drink. Just
• 1:47:39
  come up to him and say Scooter, and he will give you ten dollars
• 1:47:43
  hard crisp cash. Yep, right, yes, it sounds cool, right
• 1:47:48
  Joe. Also, head over to Locals and support our locals community over there.
• 1:47:57
  I believe that at some point this week and your boy might try to
• 1:48:01
  make the Locals only episode. Possibly we will see. And if you're in
• 1:48:12
  the hot sauce game, folks, you cannot go wrong with Silk City.
• 1:48:20
  It's delicious. It's deliricious Silk City Hot Sauce. Follow the Lincoln the description
• 1:48:27
  and of the code Gunman and you can save twenty percent off your entire order.
• 1:48:32
  Entire order, that's huge. They even ship internationally for our folks across
• 1:48:40
  the pond or down under. Wherever you are, Silk City will make its
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  way to you and light up them taste buds, set your what holes on
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  fire. Love it so yes, support those who support us. Go get
• 1:48:59
  some Silk City. You won't regret it. And uh for handsome bearded Joe
• 1:49:05
  Brelli in the tight black T shirt tonight and you're not choppy boy anymore.
• 1:49:14
  That's gonna be it for us, folks until next time. You know what
• 1:49:17
  time it is. Joe, Peace and chicken grease. I agree, yes,
• 1:49:32
  don't marry your niece.