Latest / Ridiculous History / Everyone Was Covered in Poop: A Grimy History of Soap

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Everyone Was Covered in Poop: A Grimy History of Soap · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. This is gonna be a clean one.
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Speaker 1: I think you as always so much more. Tuning in.
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Speaker 1: Shout out to the man myth legend, super producer, mister
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Speaker 1: Max zestfully clean Williams.
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Speaker 2: Soap me up, Daddy, don't never say that again.
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Speaker 3: Shout out too, I will not. That is me. I'm triggered. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: and you're old brown and I've been bullet Yeah it
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Speaker 3: is we. Yeah. Oh gosh, I've got an image in
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Speaker 3: my head that I can't shake.
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Speaker 1: You know, some times a lot of our conversations fall
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Speaker 1: into like catchphrase things, and we just find weird moments
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Speaker 1: of speech that have suddenly become strange.
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Speaker 3: And I think we just had one right before going.
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Speaker 3: I think we did too, and it really it was
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Speaker 3: very affecting. Sometimes we just can carry on entire conversations
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Speaker 3: just with only catchphrases, right, yeah, sometimes the same one
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Speaker 3: over and over and over. Sure.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we did an entire Illumination Globe Blood Limited commercial.
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Speaker 1: It's just zeros and ones, that's right. It's probably some
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Speaker 1: of our best writing. Our mental health is good.
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Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah, a clean Bill of Mental Health, if you will.
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Speaker 1: There we go, and as you might be able to tell, now, folks,
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Speaker 1: we are going to explore something a lot of people
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Speaker 1: don't think about, which.
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Speaker 3: Is just so. I thought it was anti psychotic meds,
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Speaker 3: antipsychotic med I think about those all the time. Those
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Speaker 3: are the fun ones. Nor soap is okay. So maybe
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Speaker 3: we started out with a little bit of darkness here
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Speaker 3: and then we pivoted to something that seems very squeaky
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Speaker 3: clean and all American and wholesome. But boy, howdy, does
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Speaker 3: soap have a messed up history, like really really grizzly,
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Speaker 3: you know. I mean, anyone who's seen the movie Fight
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Speaker 3: Club probably knows, at least to a degree where soap
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Speaker 3: comes from, or at least the very earliest formulations of
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Speaker 3: soap from animal and or human fat mixed with ashes,
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Speaker 3: and then it creates this like alkali, right, Like, we'll
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Speaker 3: get to a lot of this stuff. But sure, I
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Speaker 3: just was really kind of taken aback by some of
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Speaker 3: the sort of it's one of these accidental discoveries. But
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Speaker 3: the circumstances that led to the accidental discoveries quite gruesome.
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Speaker 1: Yes, So that is a heads up for you. Friendly disclaimer.
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Speaker 1: Still we think it's such a fascinating and dare we say,
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Speaker 1: ridiculous story. The first thing you have to know, and
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Speaker 1: this also shout out to our research associated mister Max Williams. Here,
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Speaker 1: this is something that I know is important to you.
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Speaker 3: Matter.
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Speaker 2: I almost said the line again, but I respect a nol.
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Speaker 3: So this, this is the first.
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Speaker 1: Thing you need to do. The world is filthy. Ever
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Speaker 1: since the first guy looked through the first microscope, people
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Speaker 1: have been kind of avoiding admitting that the world is
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Speaker 1: riddled with bacteria, all kinds of viruses, ugly dangerous things.
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Speaker 1: They're all over you, inside of you.
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Speaker 3: Can you imagine that moment, that realization where it's saying,
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Speaker 3: there's like tiny things that are just crawling all over
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Speaker 3: us all the time. I mean this Dutch fellow by
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Speaker 3: the name of amazing name Antoine Phillips van Lewinoke, who
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Speaker 3: created lenses. He didn't exactly I don't think he invented
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Speaker 3: did he invent the compound lens? I know he is
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Speaker 3: credited with inventing the microscope, which is basically like a
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Speaker 3: reverse telescope. You know, it's like it's using a series
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Speaker 3: of lenses to magnify something that's very small as opposed
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Speaker 3: to seeing something that's very far away.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, he made a lot of contributions to the microscope,
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Speaker 1: to microbiology, you name it. And this guy came into
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Speaker 1: force back when it was pretty common for self taught
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Speaker 1: experts and scientists to make all these breakthroughs. And he
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Speaker 1: just happened to look too closely at the world and
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Speaker 1: found something terrifying. Oh boy, But we also know, just
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Speaker 1: just a pro bacteria point here, we also know that
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Speaker 1: your gut biome, the bacteria that live inside you, they
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Speaker 1: are absolutely vital to a good and healthy life.
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Speaker 3: And I will also argue that sort of like just
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Speaker 3: living in squalor, or like licking a public toilet seat
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Speaker 3: or something like that. I don't know that I've ever
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Speaker 3: seen someone like get sickened or die from just like
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Speaker 3: the world, you know what I mean, just encountering Like
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Speaker 3: I am a firm believer in the five second rule.
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Speaker 3: If I drop a fry on the ground, I will
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Speaker 3: brush it off and I will eat that fry.
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Speaker 1: No.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I read something on here that said, like the
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Speaker 2: transmission of the common cold would go down by twenty
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Speaker 2: percent if everyone washed their hands for twenty seconds. So
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Speaker 2: I read that, and I'm like, nah, because I believe
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Speaker 2: in the five second rule also, so.
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Speaker 1: Well, you know, we have to consider that there are
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Speaker 1: so many moments in every human life where you run
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Speaker 1: into something that would have been really gross if you
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Speaker 1: realize what was happening, but you made it through because
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Speaker 1: the human is a resilient creature.
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Speaker 3: That's my point. Yeah, it's like, we're not. You're not
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Speaker 3: just gonna walk outside and inhale some piece of you know,
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Speaker 3: filth and then just keel over dead. But to that point,
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Speaker 3: and I don't want to de realist too it, We're
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Speaker 3: gonna give it to the story. I heard a really
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Speaker 3: cool piece of NPR the other day about how there
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Speaker 3: are some communities in the States that are starting to
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Speaker 3: move towards waste water processing and like converting it into
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Speaker 3: drinking water.
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Speaker 1: Well, that's a noble attempt, and it's one you would
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Speaker 1: want to be very confident in before deploy.
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Speaker 3: Well apparently they are, and then they and they had
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Speaker 3: to They said the biggest stumbling block or the biggest
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Speaker 3: roadblock is what they referred to as the ick factor.
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Speaker 3: That like to sell the community on it, they have
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Speaker 3: to like be on board, you know, they're like, you know,
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Speaker 3: they would be like, okay, are you okay with using
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Speaker 3: this to water your plants? Yeah, totally, they start washing
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Speaker 3: gray water. I recently installed a dehumidifier in my basement
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Speaker 3: that fills up with water every single day, and it
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Speaker 3: is apparently some of the cleanest water. It's already predistilled,
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Speaker 3: and I, you know, you could drink it. The dehumidifier
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Speaker 3: instructions say not to what do you do with it?
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Speaker 3: I water my garden with it actually, which is right
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Speaker 3: outside the door, so there's a little bucket. I pull
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Speaker 3: it out and I wanted the plants, so it's great. Yeah. Also,
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Speaker 3: my basement is never smelled fresher. And because as we know, bacteria,
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Speaker 3: you know, forms in moist conditions.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, bacteria also produce your farts. If you're a human,
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Speaker 1: million it's not on you. So another thing we need
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Speaker 1: to know is right now, humanity is overall way cleaner
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Speaker 1: than it was in days of yore. As Jim Nizele
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Speaker 1: points out in Farmer's Almanac, centuries ago, the human race stink, stink,
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Speaker 1: and stunk, But today things were a little bit different.
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Speaker 1: All thanks to an invention called soap.
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Speaker 3: We got there. It did man, that's okay, that's what
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Speaker 3: the people are here for. I always think of that
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Speaker 3: scene from Monty Python on the Holy Gril where everyone's
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Speaker 3: just covered in feces, you know, because that wasn't that
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Speaker 3: far off. I mean, that's this hilarious movie. But you know,
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Speaker 3: without drainage for sewage, like there were there was a
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Speaker 3: time where it would just run through the streets and
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Speaker 3: soap wasn't a thing, and if it was, it was
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Speaker 3: not something that everyone had access too for sure. And
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Speaker 3: now soap is ubiquitous.
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Speaker 1: You go to various businesses and they will have soap
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Speaker 1: for free.
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Speaker 3: It's one of those things. Ye.
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Speaker 1: Soap is a twenty two billion dollar industry globally. Now
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Speaker 1: thirteen billion bars are sold every year in the US alone.
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Speaker 3: But how do we get there?
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Speaker 1: We're going to learn that with some great articles from
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Speaker 1: our pals at the New York Times, some great work
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Speaker 1: for Time magazine, and of course the Cleaning Institute dot org,
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Speaker 1: because that's of course that's a thing, right, that's another
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Speaker 1: weird job. You're on a date and they say, so
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Speaker 1: what do you do? When you say, oh, I work
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Speaker 1: at the cleaning Institute. That sounds sketchy.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, like, are you like a crime scene cleaner? Right? Like,
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Speaker 3: what are we talking here? I remember then they're referred
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Speaker 3: to in that movie The Professional. They referred to professional
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Speaker 3: assassins as cleaners. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: I'm also thinking of a one of my favorite weird
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Speaker 1: Stephen King cameos in the in the TV show Sons
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Speaker 1: of Anarchy is a small spoiler. He shows up as
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Speaker 1: a cleaner, and in that use of the word, a
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Speaker 1: cleaner is someone who covers up a crime.
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Speaker 3: Scene, like Winston Wolf in pulp fiction. Yes, yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 3: just so. But when you think to your point about
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Speaker 3: the absolute bookoo amounts of money that pour into the
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Speaker 3: soap industry, companies like Procter and Gamble you may have
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Speaker 3: heard of, You know that they represent tons of different brands,
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Speaker 3: but some of them are you know, Ivory Soap, which
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Speaker 3: is a legacy soap brand. You know, brands that are
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Speaker 3: ubiquitous now like Dove, Irish Spring, Olay I guess, yeah,
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Speaker 3: I mean whatever they used to call it oil of Olay. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: now it's just olay. Yeah, it's a fun word to say.
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Speaker 3: A bullfighter. What does that spring in Ireland smell like?
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Speaker 3: Is if fresh? I guess because of leprechan magic presumable.
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Speaker 1: And I got to be honest. Nowadays, I'm not like
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Speaker 1: a bar of soap. Person.
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Speaker 3: Now, Max and I were talking about the same thing.
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Speaker 3: It's lately the thing is much more body wash, which
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Speaker 3: is still, you know, a similar thing. It's just a
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Speaker 3: liquid form, and it's easier to dispense, and you know,
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Speaker 3: bars of soap get gross and you don't only want
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Speaker 3: to share it, like if you live with somebody, Yeah,
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Speaker 3: I can't really trust them not to rub it directly
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Speaker 3: on their bits.
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Speaker 1: I remember bumming around. I was living a much different lifestyle,
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Speaker 1: and I was going from.
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Speaker 3: Back when you were a beat poet.
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Speaker 1: I was going from hostile to hostile. And the thing
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Speaker 1: that got me is they have bars of soap.
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Speaker 3: I know, you see one little curly on there.
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Speaker 1: That's exactly what happened, you know, I and I was
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Speaker 1: not you know, I was by no means a billionaire.
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Speaker 1: But I thought, I'm gonna have to just buy a
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Speaker 1: bar of soap. It's my bar. I take it with me.
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Speaker 3: I even got wrap it up nice and tidy. Yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 1: So the liquid body wash stuff that a lot of
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Speaker 1: people are using now is it's somewhat poetic that that
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Speaker 1: has evolved from the original soap. Here's the gross part
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Speaker 1: we were teasing earlier. According to Dan Copple, writing for
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Speaker 1: Wirecutter out New York Times, soap likely originated as an
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Speaker 1: accidental invention, a byproduct of cooking meat over a fire.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, arguably the best way to cook meat.
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Speaker 1: First.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember the spit urned dogs. That was the
11:27
Speaker 3: whole thing, poor guys. Yeah, I mean, at least the
11:31
Speaker 3: spitturned boys got out of it, but the dogs were
11:33
Speaker 3: definitely overworked as well. But yeah, you have this a
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Speaker 3: giant metal thing attached to a crank that slowly turns
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Speaker 3: meat over and open fire. Well, it does create delicious meat.
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Speaker 3: It also has some byproducts which can be used in
11:48
Speaker 3: their own ways. You've ever been to France, Ben, and
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Speaker 3: I know you actually have. They a big popular thing
11:53
Speaker 3: and it's a lot of like kind of what we
11:54
Speaker 3: would call bodega's. They have chickens that are roasting and
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Speaker 3: the fat drips down onto potatoes. Yeah, man, that's what's up.
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Speaker 3: And you can buy the potatoes separately. But back in
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Speaker 3: these days they would be an open fire. So what
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Speaker 3: happened is the fat would drip into the fire and
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Speaker 3: then eventually the fire would go out, leaving all these
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Speaker 3: globs of fat mixed in with the ashes.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, meat boogers and ashes too, very unclean sounding things
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Speaker 1: are key ingredients to what we call soap because what's crazy. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: what happened was you have to applaud the ingenuity and
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Speaker 1: inquisitiveness of these earlier humans.
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Speaker 3: What happened? Who tried that? Who did something? Yet that mum?
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Speaker 1: Who's like, I don't know, man around, Let's say, rub
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Speaker 1: it on my face might feel fresh, zestfully clean. How
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Speaker 1: much other stuff had they been rubbing on themselves?
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Speaker 3: You know?
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Speaker 1: They're like, I know the poison ivy didn't work out,
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Speaker 1: but I got a good feeling about these meat boogers guys.
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Speaker 3: I mean, I just can't understand quite what aha moment
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Speaker 3: would have led someone to realize that this chemical, this
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Speaker 3: kind of slippery stuff that was created was good at
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Speaker 3: removing dirt. I also don't fully understand scientifically speaking, how
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Speaker 3: that even works. Oh, we'll get it, Okay, I'm excited.
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Speaker 1: So you can see that after someone figured this out,
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Speaker 1: they said, you can rub this on yourself. It'll take
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Speaker 1: dirt off you, and you can, for the first time
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Speaker 1: in your life be kind of clean. Everybody loved this.
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Speaker 1: It became super popular. You can find recipes for making
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Speaker 1: soap that are almost five thousand years old, and it's
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Speaker 1: all around the ancient world Greece, Rome, Egypt. You know,
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Speaker 1: all the hits and alchemists made a lot of soap.
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Speaker 3: So how come I didn't catch on Like in the
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Speaker 3: Middle Ages when everyone was covered in poop?
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Speaker 1: Well it, I will tell you. From what I understand
13:52
Speaker 1: about the Middle Ages and at least Western Europe, it
13:55
Speaker 1: was pretty rare to take a bath. It was often
13:58
Speaker 1: considered like a ritual list thing like a night may
14:01
Speaker 1: take a bath once a year before the big jousting tournament.
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Speaker 1: Otherwise it's just sort of normalized to to stink. So
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Speaker 1: maybe soap was something that the elite would have. People
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Speaker 1: were trying to be clean. We're not saying they were
14:17
Speaker 1: a bunch of degenerates.
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Speaker 2: They I will say, there's some stuff that coming up
14:21
Speaker 2: about why they'd invade in the medieval era.
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about.
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Speaker 2: I think I think I know a bit of a reason,
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Speaker 2: some humorous level science.
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Speaker 3: Dare I say ridiculous. I also remember, like there was
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Speaker 3: a thing we discussed in an episode of ways back
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Speaker 3: about people washing their linens and urine. Mm hmm, yeah,
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Speaker 3: a thing. I think it was underwear. I think it
14:44
Speaker 3: was in the underwear.
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Speaker 1: It was washing underwear in urine. And then also while
14:48
Speaker 1: we're on the point of well we're on the point
14:51
Speaker 1: of underpants history, check out the origin of pink lemonade.
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Speaker 3: Remember that episode clown Tights, the Rise of the Clown.
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Speaker 3: Let's just leave it at the Yeah. Sorry, it's crazy
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Speaker 3: to me that this is something that has existed for
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Speaker 3: so very long, just based on some accidental stumbling into
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Speaker 3: like however this happened, We don't know. What we do
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Speaker 3: know is that we have recipes dating back between either
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Speaker 3: the eighth and tenth century from alchemists, like you said,
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Speaker 3: and this is when here spread well burnt ashes from goodlogs.
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Speaker 3: It has to be good logs over woven wicker work,
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Speaker 3: which I guess acts as sort of like a cheese
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Speaker 3: cloth kind of situation, like cloth, Yeah, and gently pour
15:30
Speaker 3: hot water on them, so it goes through drop by drop.
15:33
Speaker 3: After it is clarified, well, let it cook, add enough
15:37
Speaker 3: oil and stir very well.
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Speaker 1: So I want to point something out that you guys know,
15:42
Speaker 1: I love food writing and reading. There's a great book
15:47
Speaker 1: called Choice Cuts that has a lot of strange old recipes.
15:50
Speaker 1: I'll bring it in one day. We should read it
15:52
Speaker 1: out loud. And and what I love is just like
15:56
Speaker 1: the George Washington recipe. There's a vagueness to it. Add
16:01
Speaker 1: enough oil, get a goodly amount, enjoy liberally.
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Speaker 3: I believe it was in the eggnog recipe that you're
16:08
Speaker 3: referring to. Yeah, and this comes from actually a book
16:12
Speaker 3: called the Maypie Clavicula, which is it's kind of cute
16:18
Speaker 3: and Latin that translates to a little key to everything.
16:21
Speaker 3: You know, it's like little live laugh love. You know,
16:26
Speaker 3: it's kind of cute. I bet it had some like
16:27
Speaker 3: nice life hacks in it.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the how stuff works of it to day.
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Speaker 1: The Alchemist recipe for soap said you need to use
16:37
Speaker 1: either olive oil or beef tallow animal fat, and today
16:43
Speaker 1: animal fat, along with lye, is still a basic ingredient
16:47
Speaker 1: of soap. Here's some of the science so fat reacts
16:50
Speaker 1: with lye and this can be pretty toxic. So soap
16:55
Speaker 1: makers when they're making this stuff they have to wear
16:58
Speaker 1: protective gear. The process that can be dangerous to humans
17:03
Speaker 1: is something called saponification.
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Speaker 3: That's right, and we believe that the origins of that
17:09
Speaker 3: word come from the Proto German word sipo, which means
17:15
Speaker 3: to strain. And again going back to that alchemist's recipe,
17:18
Speaker 3: we're talking about straining substances through kind of like a
17:22
Speaker 3: porous piece of fabric.
17:24
Speaker 1: Another greasy strain is another really gross phrase.
17:29
Speaker 3: Why not great? Yeah, and to that point, Ben, the
17:32
Speaker 3: Latin word sebum is also associated with this, which translates
17:37
Speaker 3: to Greece or another alternative is from something originating from
17:43
Speaker 3: Mount Sappo, which is a mountain in Italy where I
17:46
Speaker 3: believe there were like sacrifices being made or something it.
17:51
Speaker 1: Gets its name from. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's okay.
17:55
Speaker 3: So the sources are great. Another meat and fat and
17:57
Speaker 3: ash situation, Yes, not consensual.
18:01
Speaker 1: So the wild soap is still very much I think
18:04
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three we have to be very we
18:07
Speaker 1: have to be extremely clear with you folks. The soap
18:10
Speaker 1: from back in the day was very different. Early soap
18:15
Speaker 1: would not have looked cool to you if you traveled
18:18
Speaker 1: back in time and hung out in a Roman bathhouse.
18:22
Speaker 1: These soaps were probably people have recreated the sancient stuff
18:25
Speaker 1: using those recipes. These soaps were like brown or gray.
18:29
Speaker 1: They were kind of soft and mushy. They didn't have
18:31
Speaker 1: any nice smells at the time. They're purely functional. At
18:35
Speaker 1: the time, they were just a huge improvement. They were
18:38
Speaker 1: a game changer for hygiene because beforehand, before soap, people
18:45
Speaker 1: would clean themselves by rubbing their bodies with clay or
18:48
Speaker 1: scraping them with scraping pumas across their flesh.
18:54
Speaker 3: Sure, it was just pretty popular. People love a puma stone.
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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just exfoliating, true, true, but exfoliating is
19:02
Speaker 1: part of bathing.
19:04
Speaker 3: They were straight up at fully Lake. I don't know it. Yea,
19:07
Speaker 3: it is a dry shower, is what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah,
19:10
Speaker 3: that's kind of that's kind of that's kind of it.
19:12
Speaker 3: Really quickly, we talked about another of the potential origins
19:16
Speaker 3: of the words, so Mount Sapo alluded to some some
19:22
Speaker 3: gnarly goings on at this place that apparently the location
19:26
Speaker 3: is lost to history. What exactly was Mount Sapo famous
19:30
Speaker 3: for in ancient Rome? Oh?
19:32
Speaker 1: Good, save, yes, I wast forgot about this one. Yeah,
19:36
Speaker 1: all right, absolutely right. It is a It is believed
19:40
Speaker 1: to be a hilly area somewhere near somewhere near Rome
19:44
Speaker 1: and back in one hundred BC or b C, whatever
19:49
Speaker 1: you prefer. There was a legend about this place and
19:54
Speaker 1: the idea that was that Mount Sapo was a sacrificial
19:58
Speaker 1: site for adnimals and rain water. They would kill these
20:03
Speaker 1: animals pretty much constantly, and then rainwater would fall down
20:08
Speaker 1: and mix with the animal fat and ashes, and then
20:13
Speaker 1: from there it would run down to a river.
20:16
Speaker 3: It's very interesting and just again. I always learned about
20:19
Speaker 3: it stuff initially from the movie Fight Club, where Tyler
20:22
Speaker 3: Dirt and Brad Pitt's character is a soap salesman who
20:27
Speaker 3: gets his makings his ingredients by dumpster diving at liposuction clinics.
20:33
Speaker 1: You get in situations you do and think about this
20:37
Speaker 1: river that we both thought it was so cool. Is
20:41
Speaker 1: once these sacrifices, all the gunk and the remains, once
20:46
Speaker 1: it flows down from the mountain into the river, there
20:49
Speaker 1: are people washing clothes in the river and they're saying, wait.
20:55
Speaker 3: This ninety's never been this clean in my life. What
20:59
Speaker 3: gives go looks brand new? That's better.
21:02
Speaker 2: That's more.
21:02
Speaker 3: We were more in the token.
21:03
Speaker 1: The poop stains are all gone. We should make more sacrifices.
21:08
Speaker 1: That's how soap started, according to this legend.
21:11
Speaker 3: But it's a good legend. It seems a little apocryphal
21:14
Speaker 3: once again, you know what I mean. Yeah, but it
21:16
Speaker 3: does lead. It does make more sense than the fat
21:19
Speaker 3: dripping into the fire and the ashes and someone just
21:23
Speaker 3: figuring out how to just to take it and rub
21:25
Speaker 3: it on themselves. Yeah, unless they were trying to eat
21:28
Speaker 3: the fat. Yeah, exactly. But I'll tell you what, they
21:30
Speaker 3: never used bad language again, right, because they washed their.
21:35
Speaker 1: Mouths so so I think it was worth it, no
21:39
Speaker 1: joke left behind. We were talking earlier about why the
21:44
Speaker 1: Middle Ages, again in Western Europe, were so very dirty,
21:48
Speaker 1: So let's maybe let's explore that, because although soap was
21:52
Speaker 1: an amazing discovery, people weren't always using it. It was
21:58
Speaker 1: considered a high craft or in art. In Italy and
22:02
Speaker 1: Spain and France, they were making soap. There in the
22:04
Speaker 1: Middle East, people were also making soap with olive oil,
22:10
Speaker 1: and it was actually quite a flex to import that.
22:13
Speaker 1: So rich people in Europe were saying, ah, yes, my
22:16
Speaker 1: Middle Eastern soap olive oil.
22:19
Speaker 3: Soap is still kind of like a bespoke sort of
22:22
Speaker 3: like popular thing, you know, like the kind of fancy
22:25
Speaker 3: hand soaps are all the rage these days. You see
22:28
Speaker 3: them at hotels. You U see the hotels and also
22:30
Speaker 3: like places where they're sort of irregularly shaped and have
22:33
Speaker 3: like kind of weird like striations in them. They almost
22:36
Speaker 3: look like little blocks of sediments, you know, fancy one
22:40
Speaker 3: c see at the grocery store sometimes. But no, it's true.
22:43
Speaker 3: This was considered kind of a luxury item. So this
22:47
Speaker 3: is almost some of the earliest days of bath products
22:51
Speaker 3: as luxury. Yeah. Yeah.
22:53
Speaker 1: And a lot of people, of course were making their
22:56
Speaker 1: own soap at home because they were this was these
23:00
Speaker 1: were largely agrarian economies, right, So you are on a farm,
23:05
Speaker 1: you raise and kill animals, and you want to maximize
23:09
Speaker 1: your productivity, so of course you have a soap recipe.
23:11
Speaker 1: You pass it down to your kids and so on.
23:15
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, though, the fall of the Roman Empire is
23:20
Speaker 1: a big reason more Europeans didn't have soap, which I
23:24
Speaker 1: did not know that way, I did not see that coming.
23:27
Speaker 3: Have we talked about the term castile soap. We have
23:30
Speaker 3: not yet.
23:30
Speaker 1: That's the one from the fancy soap in Italy, Spain
23:34
Speaker 1: and France.
23:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was the name, and that is if
23:38
Speaker 3: you if anyone's familiar with doctor Bronner's so very very
23:41
Speaker 3: popular you use it to clear anything. But it is
23:44
Speaker 3: like one of those kind of olive oil based soaps
23:47
Speaker 3: that originated in Spain and they are still around today
23:50
Speaker 3: and considered kind of the you know, the holy grail
23:54
Speaker 3: of soaps.
23:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And soap was kind of the holy
24:00
Speaker 1: grail in parts of Europe during the medieval period because,
24:05
Speaker 1: as we know from soap and Detergent's history, after the
24:09
Speaker 1: Fall of Rome, bathing habits went downhill in Europe and
24:14
Speaker 1: this made they really let themselves go and and this
24:18
Speaker 1: contributed in a very serious and disturbing way to plagues,
24:24
Speaker 1: to illness, to infection. People were bathing and then they stopped.
24:30
Speaker 1: That's kind of what happened. And this was a big
24:34
Speaker 1: help to the fleas that traveled on the rats that
24:38
Speaker 1: brought the Black Death to Europe.
24:40
Speaker 3: Oh, just a perfect storm of nastiness. Yeah, that was
24:43
Speaker 3: in the fourteenth century. But elsewhere in the world, folks
24:49
Speaker 3: were taking care of themselves, you know, in terms of
24:52
Speaker 3: their personal hygiene. In Japan, people bathed every day. It
24:57
Speaker 3: was very very common and you know, as I mean
24:59
Speaker 3: We always think Japan is kind of having there together,
25:02
Speaker 3: you know, in terms of organization, in terms of innovation, uh,
25:06
Speaker 3: and just kind of civilization. You know, all the Asians.
25:10
Speaker 1: We you guys got to go to Japan with me.
25:14
Speaker 1: We don't have to hang out together the whole time.
25:16
Speaker 3: No, no, I'll be right by your side.
25:18
Speaker 2: It's just three of us can be in a hot
25:20
Speaker 2: tub together.
25:20
Speaker 1: In Japan, they've got their classy they're called on st.
25:24
Speaker 2: Oh I know, eisode.
25:27
Speaker 3: I really want to do this.
25:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's cool, for sure, and it's it's an important
25:34
Speaker 1: point for us to make that although a lot of
25:37
Speaker 1: people in the West only think of Western Europe when
25:39
Speaker 1: they think of the Middle Ages, the rest of the
25:42
Speaker 1: world was still there totally, you know, and didn't have
25:45
Speaker 1: all the same problems. In Iceland, people loved gathering together
25:51
Speaker 1: in the hot springs. Also, you know what, ma'am, we
25:54
Speaker 1: got to go to Scandinavia one day. I would love
25:56
Speaker 1: to go there. I want to walk in a country
25:59
Speaker 1: where it's considered normal to have a sauna.
26:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, have a Schwitz. That's so crazy to me. You
26:04
Speaker 3: ever heard that referred to as Schwitz? I think it's
26:08
Speaker 3: a Sopranos thing. I think it might be Yiddish actually,
26:11
Speaker 3: but it's just like getting getting your sweat on. And
26:14
Speaker 3: then there's even like there's certain meats that are appropriate
26:19
Speaker 3: to eat in a sauna.
26:23
Speaker 1: That that part the second part I I hadn't heard before.
26:27
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, sauna sausage. There's a whole company uh that
26:33
Speaker 3: was obscure actually has an article in Finland. You cook
26:36
Speaker 3: sausages in the stones. Yeah, that makes you guys.
26:40
Speaker 2: Do you guys remember this from the uh Sausage War
26:42
Speaker 2: episode the Expedition.
26:45
Speaker 3: Oh that's right.
26:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, at the very end of were talking about like
26:48
Speaker 2: they have like a little like in the saunas. They
26:50
Speaker 2: have just like a stone cut out sausage in and
26:53
Speaker 2: they getting in there. And also expedition remember that.
26:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that's fun one to say. Yeah, and that's
27:00
Speaker 3: how it's pronounced. Yeah. And now there are modern innovations
27:02
Speaker 3: that keep your sausage from getting soggy. It's like a
27:05
Speaker 3: little sleeve that you put it in. It's sort of
27:07
Speaker 3: like a stone and the sausage goes inside and then
27:10
Speaker 3: that goes on the rocks.
27:11
Speaker 1: So they're doing hot pocket rules amazing. So there's another
27:16
Speaker 1: thing that happens here aside from the fall of the
27:18
Speaker 1: Roman Empire. Medical experts of the time, working again with
27:24
Speaker 1: the limited information they had, they started putting out some
27:28
Speaker 1: scare pieces, some propaganda about bathing. They began to think
27:33
Speaker 1: that bathing was a vector for spreading illness, and powerful
27:39
Speaker 1: people believed them. King Louis the fourteenth over in France
27:43
Speaker 1: was convinced that baths were bad for you, like they
27:46
Speaker 1: were like unnecessary surgery. Apparently he only took three baths
27:53
Speaker 1: throughout the course of his life and just you know,
27:57
Speaker 1: covered his his swamps.
28:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, with scented oils and lotions and perfumes. I've done
28:05
Speaker 3: that every time in a pin.
28:07
Speaker 1: Sure, every time I go somewhere and I smell a
28:10
Speaker 1: little bit like close.
28:11
Speaker 3: Little underarm sprits, Yeah, it's because I have not showered.
28:13
Speaker 3: It's definitely for you guys.
28:15
Speaker 2: If you guys ever put deodorant on a turd, I
28:19
Speaker 2: haven't either. I have on when I'm a teenager.
28:22
Speaker 3: That's a weird question.
28:23
Speaker 2: Basically, what it smells like, they said, was dedorant, and
28:27
Speaker 2: turn is what it smells like. The Uran doesn't cover what.
28:31
Speaker 3: You're saying, So this is a hypothetical.
28:33
Speaker 2: So no, this person actually did it. But what I
28:36
Speaker 2: feel like this is a common thing to do.
28:38
Speaker 3: It's not.
28:38
Speaker 2: No, it's not agreed. Thanks, I'm such a never friend
28:42
Speaker 2: of mine from like the end of middle school told
28:44
Speaker 2: me to do that. You're wrong.
28:47
Speaker 3: I once pooped my pants in middle school and hit
28:49
Speaker 3: it in a drawer in my friend's house.
28:52
Speaker 1: I once pooped in another guy's pants. That's crazy.
28:55
Speaker 3: You win, you win. All this is coming out any
29:00
Speaker 3: of us watched or staying in. But here's what I
29:09
Speaker 3: do know. I always thought of King Louis the fourteenth
29:12
Speaker 3: is the real fancy lad you know it wasn't he
29:16
Speaker 3: the son king? Wasn't he like the Versailles guy, you know?
29:20
Speaker 3: And he wore like fancy ruffles and was it all
29:23
Speaker 3: into the height of fashion and all of that stuff.
29:25
Speaker 3: He was, Yeah, Louis the Great?
29:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was I think the longest running ruler
29:32
Speaker 1: of France.
29:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
29:33
Speaker 2: And then didn't his son king Yeah, his grandson was
29:38
Speaker 2: the sixteenth. He got shoved into the guilloteen. I think
29:40
Speaker 2: that French Revolution is right after the fourteenth.
29:43
Speaker 3: Yeah. Point being though, is I just didn't really pick
29:47
Speaker 3: You'll get all these paintings of him with his glorious
29:49
Speaker 3: flowing locks and all of this stuff, and you just
29:52
Speaker 3: don't picture him smelling like crap.
29:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, but at all. Frederickston was very in shape and skinny,
29:59
Speaker 2: and he's the he was the king of Sweden who
30:01
Speaker 2: aid himself to death.
30:02
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, but he just loved those buns man. Yeah.
30:05
Speaker 2: I mean, so like these paintings are generally not true,
30:10
Speaker 2: well not super duper accurate.
30:11
Speaker 1: I mean, imagine if you are the painter and you
30:15
Speaker 1: have to make a picture of the most powerful person
30:19
Speaker 1: in the country who can just have you killed. Yeah,
30:24
Speaker 1: you are going to you know, judge it up a
30:27
Speaker 1: little bit, sure, give him some definition, you know.
30:30
Speaker 3: I would also say that the modern equivalent would be
30:33
Speaker 3: like the way the social media pictures are curated. Nobody's
30:36
Speaker 3: that happy, nobody lives that happy. A life is so contented.
30:41
Speaker 1: Agreed, Agreed, social media curation and portraits of royalty may
30:47
Speaker 1: not be the full truth. Soap is now modernized. How
30:52
Speaker 1: did it become a modern thing? Well, technology, There were
30:57
Speaker 1: advances in production and more sophisticated manufacturing techniques that are
31:03
Speaker 1: responsible for the soap we have today. Soap is way
31:08
Speaker 1: older than the United States, obviously, and the soap making
31:13
Speaker 1: business in the US is also older than the United States.
31:17
Speaker 1: It started way back in the sixteen hundreds, and it
31:22
Speaker 1: wasn't anybody's job. It was just another household shore you
31:26
Speaker 1: had to do. So if you think laundry stinks now, folks,
31:30
Speaker 1: imagine another part of doing laundry was making the soap
31:35
Speaker 1: you would use. So you're like, the clothes are getting
31:39
Speaker 1: pretty dirty. I guess I have to kill an animal,
31:42
Speaker 1: render its fat, start a fire, make some soap, and
31:46
Speaker 1: then find a river.
31:49
Speaker 3: Yeah. I have noticed that some kind of more traditional
31:54
Speaker 3: soaps they don't really smell good. They kind of have
31:57
Speaker 3: an acrid kind of smell all to them, you know
32:00
Speaker 3: what I mean. Like, even just like a really basic
32:03
Speaker 3: bar of soap, when you wash your hands in it,
32:05
Speaker 3: there's a certain chemically kind of unpleasant odor. Certainly Trump's
32:11
Speaker 3: whatever odor was there before it literally Trump said, gets
32:14
Speaker 3: rid of it. But the smell isn't pleasant. It wasn't
32:16
Speaker 3: until oils and the scents were introduced, and then that
32:20
Speaker 3: that became more of a thing.
32:22
Speaker 1: And this, you know, it reminds me of a common
32:25
Speaker 1: scene in grocery stores. When you go to the cleaning aisle,
32:29
Speaker 1: you'll it'll typically be on a bottom shelf. You'll see
32:33
Speaker 1: that soap you're talking about. I always think of it
32:35
Speaker 1: as the industrial stuff. It's like the soap, the lie soap,
32:39
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that can hurt your hats.
32:41
Speaker 3: Right, that's yeah, yeah, or you know it's because that's
32:44
Speaker 3: literally the substance is used to like dissolve a body.
32:48
Speaker 3: No comment, Okay, fair enough, So we'll call Stevi King.
32:52
Speaker 1: There's something unique about the early North American soap industry.
32:57
Speaker 1: It gets started because of bacon and canned lighting in
33:01
Speaker 1: general was a big part of commercial cleansers because both
33:06
Speaker 1: making candles and making soap, both of them traditionally rely
33:11
Speaker 1: on byproducts from animals. So as the US becomes more
33:14
Speaker 1: industrialized and people are less and less likely to raise
33:18
Speaker 1: their own animals for meat, they're going to purchase stuff
33:21
Speaker 1: from butchers. That means they're also less likely to make.
33:25
Speaker 3: Soap at home. So that's when we have, you know,
33:29
Speaker 3: the first steps of the I guess soap industry starting
33:35
Speaker 3: to pop up, right, soap revolution, soap evolution. But it's
33:38
Speaker 3: earlier than you might think. Back in seventeen ninety one,
33:40
Speaker 3: we've got a French chemist by the name of Nicholas LeBlanc.
33:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, he patents this process where you can make soda
33:49
Speaker 1: ash from salt. Soda ash is important because you can
33:53
Speaker 1: combine it regular fat and you'll make soap. And that discovery,
33:57
Speaker 1: the blancs breakthrough makes soap making one of the fastest growing,
34:03
Speaker 1: most explosive industries in the United States.
34:07
Speaker 3: By eighteen fifty.
34:08
Speaker 1: We also see real life factories coming into play, and
34:12
Speaker 1: the soap business is boomy. It's good to be This
34:15
Speaker 1: is back when you could be a soap tycoon.
34:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and even like I think there were
34:20
Speaker 3: like traveling salesmen and stuff like that, you know, with
34:23
Speaker 3: their suitcases full of bars of soap. And this was
34:27
Speaker 3: also the time remember that propaganda of like you know,
34:30
Speaker 3: the previous era, the sort of main people question soap.
34:34
Speaker 3: Now we have I think a little bit more medical
34:37
Speaker 3: kind of support for soap. That's good and like expressions
34:40
Speaker 3: like cleanliness is next to godliness and all of that stuff.
34:44
Speaker 3: God is empty. It's yeah, he is, he really is.
34:47
Speaker 3: It's cool to be clean though, you know what I'm saying.
34:50
Speaker 3: This is definitely starting to be the message. So during
34:52
Speaker 3: the Crimean War in the eighteen fifties, we have Florence Nightingales,
34:57
Speaker 3: very important figure in the mystery of medicine, who's credited
35:01
Speaker 3: with kind of changing the way nursing is done and
35:07
Speaker 3: really made a big deal about washing those hands because
35:12
Speaker 3: that could potentially save lives by preventing the spread of cholera. Yeah, yeah,
35:19
Speaker 3: and she is.
35:21
Speaker 1: She's in the pantheon of people who who were underappreciated
35:26
Speaker 1: by civilization. I would argue she's up there with Samalwis,
35:30
Speaker 1: the guy who asks surgeons to wash their hands before
35:32
Speaker 1: they do operations, right, or assistant childbirth. So this is
35:40
Speaker 1: very important stuff. Also in the mid eighteen hundreds, in
35:43
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty seven, there's this candle maker out of Cincinnati,
35:46
Speaker 1: William Procter, and he says, oh, yeah, well making candles
35:51
Speaker 1: making soap. I have the ingredients for both, and he
35:55
Speaker 1: puts them together. He teams up with a guy named
35:57
Speaker 1: James Gamble and makes a company that ultimately becomes not
36:04
Speaker 1: just a huge deal in the soap business, but the
36:07
Speaker 1: world's largest consumer products company ever.
36:10
Speaker 3: Procter and Gamble, P and G, baby and G. What
36:14
Speaker 3: do they not make? I don't know, humans?
36:18
Speaker 1: Yeah now as of now, yeah, they're making prototype humans.
36:24
Speaker 1: So Procter and Gamble is also one of the first
36:29
Speaker 1: soaps to gain national distribution. It's the Ivory brand, which
36:33
Speaker 1: is still around today, right.
36:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's still distributed by parct and Gamble. They're
36:37
Speaker 3: the kind of company that has been in the game
36:39
Speaker 3: for so long, diversified so much, and they've created so
36:43
Speaker 3: many like ubiquitous kind of brands. So remember that cast
36:46
Speaker 3: deal soap we were talking about from Spain that was
36:48
Speaker 3: sort of the fancy lad soap. This plain white soap
36:53
Speaker 3: was designed to be competition for that, like perhaps the
36:59
Speaker 3: people soap.
37:00
Speaker 1: The people's soap, soap for the people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:05
Speaker 1: It was pretty affordable, and the name was from a
37:10
Speaker 1: biblical passage. The company said, the name of the soap
37:16
Speaker 1: is an indicator of its purity. There even came to
37:20
Speaker 1: be a kind of modern legend, a creation myth about
37:24
Speaker 1: how Ivory was made. The story was that there was
37:29
Speaker 1: a mixing machine left on someone took a long lunch
37:33
Speaker 1: break and extra air accidentally pumped into what was what
37:38
Speaker 1: was being mixed, And in two thousand and four, weirdly enough,
37:44
Speaker 1: people working for Procter and Gamble went through Old Man
37:48
Speaker 1: Gambles diary from eighteen sixty rude.
37:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, they read his diary and dear diary. Yeah, that's exactly.
37:57
Speaker 3: I got a crush on this diary.
38:00
Speaker 1: I made floating soap today I think will make all
38:04
Speaker 1: of our stock that way. So the legend that was
38:06
Speaker 1: the quote, Yeah, that was the quote. The legend was
38:08
Speaker 1: probably made up.
38:10
Speaker 3: Got it. But here's the thing. A lot of the
38:13
Speaker 3: soap that you think is soap isn't in fact soap scale.
38:21
Speaker 3: There's a lot to be said, as we alluded to earlier,
38:23
Speaker 3: about the chemistry of soap and how it actually works.
38:27
Speaker 3: It something that's always eluded me. This seems like a
38:29
Speaker 3: mystical substance. A lot of these manufacturing processes stayed very
38:33
Speaker 3: much the same until nineteen sixteen during World War One,
38:38
Speaker 3: and then there was another change that happened during World
38:39
Speaker 3: War Two, as often as the case during wartime, because
38:42
Speaker 3: of shortage and things that were needed as part of
38:44
Speaker 3: the supply chain, because a lot of these fats that
38:47
Speaker 3: were needed to make chemicals were being used elsewhere, probably
38:52
Speaker 3: for those like k rations or whatever.
38:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, and back to our pal Dan writing for Wirecutter,
38:58
Speaker 1: he said, German and Ears figured out they could use
39:02
Speaker 1: a different cleaning product that didn't need animal fat and ashes.
39:07
Speaker 1: It was a synthetic substance they called detergent Latin for
39:13
Speaker 1: to wipe away. Detergents didn't have soap. They used enzymes that,
39:19
Speaker 1: through chemical reactions, lift stains off of clothing and skin.
39:25
Speaker 1: American companies get on board with this and again the
39:28
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds and they start making new detergents and
39:34
Speaker 1: mixing ingredients up to see what other properties they can discover.
39:40
Speaker 1: And eventually, after the times of privation had passed, they
39:47
Speaker 1: were left with something that actually worked better than the
39:50
Speaker 1: original soap. And they said, okay, well, you know, history
39:54
Speaker 1: is cool, but we're going to have to go with
39:56
Speaker 1: a thing that's a better cleaner.
39:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.
39:57
Speaker 3: It also doesn't like SuDS up the same. It behaves
40:01
Speaker 3: differently when mixed with water, Like I don't know if
40:03
Speaker 3: anyone's ever been unfortunate enough to accidentally put the regular
40:07
Speaker 3: soap into a dishwasher or something like that, you're gonna
40:10
Speaker 3: have like SuDS shooting all over your kitchen. Totally. Yeah,
40:14
Speaker 3: it's a rite of passage as an adult. But that's
40:17
Speaker 3: the thing like with you know, if you look at
40:20
Speaker 3: what laundry detergent does, for example, in the washing machine.
40:23
Speaker 3: It's not full of bubbles. It's much of much like
40:26
Speaker 3: you know, it's clearly a different process. It's more of
40:29
Speaker 3: a smooth operator. It's a smooth operator. It creates kind
40:32
Speaker 3: of like this slurry, you know.
40:34
Speaker 1: And as a result, like you were saying earlier, Man,
40:37
Speaker 1: what people are calling soap today is not completely soap.
40:42
Speaker 1: Most of the cleansers, the majority of them liquid and solid,
40:46
Speaker 1: are gonna be synthetic detergent products. And people like these
40:51
Speaker 1: products because they don't form gummy deposits. The origin story
40:55
Speaker 1: of them is not as disturbing to some people. And
41:00
Speaker 1: modern cleansers also include a lot of other ingredients. Stuff
41:04
Speaker 1: to make it the bar of soap, brighter stuff to
41:07
Speaker 1: make the liquid, you know, look bluish water, softeners, antibacterial
41:12
Speaker 1: stuff like alcohol, and these bars can have some of
41:16
Speaker 1: the same ingredients as soap, Like when you see what
41:21
Speaker 1: is it, the animal fat is still in some of them.
41:24
Speaker 1: It's just not called that anymore.
41:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, And some of the main ingredients in these are
41:28
Speaker 3: something that we both tittered at. I guess a little
41:31
Speaker 3: bit off my sodium talowate. It's just because it's a
41:34
Speaker 3: funny word.
41:34
Speaker 1: I don't know why it feels like someone trying to
41:36
Speaker 1: do pretend Latin.
41:38
Speaker 3: It does sound that way. And then sodium lard eate,
41:40
Speaker 3: which sounds like what it is, or it can also
41:43
Speaker 3: include vegetable fats such as sodium palmitate and sodium coco eate,
41:51
Speaker 3: which sounds delightful. But chemically speaking, they're not actually soap,
41:57
Speaker 3: but it does seem that they mean they're obviously it's
42:00
Speaker 3: like chemically or like scientifically in terms of what the
42:02
Speaker 3: process is doing a similar job, right right.
42:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is one of Max, I think this
42:09
Speaker 1: is one of the big questions for you, and I
42:12
Speaker 1: appreciate this because we've got to give a shout out
42:15
Speaker 1: to our alma matter. How stuff works. Maybe we end here,
42:19
Speaker 1: how does soap actually work? Well, it's less of a
42:22
Speaker 1: disinfectant and more of what you called, Max, I think
42:27
Speaker 1: quite appropriately a germ slipping slide. They're not killing the germs,
42:31
Speaker 1: they're moving them. The slipperiness of soap lowers the surface
42:36
Speaker 1: temperature of water when you mix them together, and rubbing
42:40
Speaker 1: your hands together while washing gets the dirt to temporarily
42:44
Speaker 1: bond with the water and soap, and then it.
42:46
Speaker 3: Leaves with the water. It lifts it right off. Yeah,
42:49
Speaker 3: it's interesting, just like those commercials exactly leaving U zestfully clean.
42:55
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, man, I think you got that jingle stuck
42:58
Speaker 3: in my head a little while ago. I think, ye,
43:00
Speaker 3: not fully clean and unless you zest fully clean.
43:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's jaunty. It's a jaunty jingle. And this has
43:08
Speaker 1: been a pretty fascinating episode. It took us a lot
43:11
Speaker 1: of places. We got into some pretty dark territory. We
43:16
Speaker 1: got into some really interesting stuff about hygiene, and we're
43:19
Speaker 1: going to have to continue the journey next week.
43:25
Speaker 3: To our personal hygiene journey. Our personal hygiene journey. Yeah, man,
43:29
Speaker 3: we're look at us. All three of us are being
43:31
Speaker 3: pretty good. Now, we're working out, we're taking showers. Oh man,
43:35
Speaker 3: I took one three days ago. I feel like you're
43:37
Speaker 3: high roading me. But congratulations. My favorite place it took
43:41
Speaker 3: us was the top of the Sacrifice Mountain. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:44
Speaker 3: Can you imagine finding that place in the modern day,
43:49
Speaker 3: Probably pretty creepy piles of bones and whatnot like the
43:52
Speaker 3: Predator's Layer, but it would be an adventure. Indeed, it
43:55
Speaker 3: would until the predatory is too.
43:58
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to super producer mister Max Williams, thanks
44:02
Speaker 1: to research associate Max Williams, thanks to Chuck Palinook, thanks
44:06
Speaker 1: to Brad Pitt, thanks to Ed Norton.
44:11
Speaker 3: He's apparently a bit of a pill, but he's a
44:13
Speaker 3: fabulous actor, and of.
44:15
Speaker 1: Course thanks to our own theatrical professional Jonathan stricklandka the poster.
44:21
Speaker 3: Indeed, we'll see you next time, folks Stickley. For more
44:31
Speaker 3: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
44:35
Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.