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The Man Who Survived Bridgegate - Bill Baroni · Nightmare Success In and Out

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What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy. Welcome to the Nightmare Success
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In and Out podcast, where we explore how to overcome your
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fears and nightmares that set yourself free.
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We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
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Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
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These stories can be inspiring, sometimes.
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Sad. There's some humor, but
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hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something that'll
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help you knock down some of the prisons you built up in your own
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mind. All right, all right, all right,
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everybody. We're back.
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Welcome back. Nightmare, success.
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In and out. I've really been looking forward
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to this interview because you know this, this shows all about
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what happens when your worst fear becomes your reality.
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Well, Bill Baroni, if anybody follows politics, there was an
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event that happened and if you have a gate put on the back of
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your anything in politics, that means it was something big.
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Well, it was Bridgegate, and if anybody was following the board
1:02
game at home, it was Governor Chris Christie.
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It had to do with the George Washington Bridge and lane
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closures. And there were a couple of
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people that got convicted and it was a whole fiasco saga and it
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went all the way to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court
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ended up throwing out the convictions.
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And my guest Bill Browni was in all of that.
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And just give you a little bit of background about Bill because
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he's he's he's just lived a a journey of a life.
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But he was he's been in politics.
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He was elected to the legislature.
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New Jersey General Assembly, New Jersey State Senate.
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As I said, Governor Chris Christie appointed him to the
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New York New Jersey Port Authority, the largest
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transportation agency in the country, overseeing bridges,
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tunnels, rails, the World Trade Center and buses the port.
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And he was. He's been a member of numerous
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boards, too many to list, a Seton Hall law professor.
2:06
He's the Co founder of Prison Visitation Fund and he's a
2:10
leader in the area of health and and fighting obesity.
2:13
He actually wrote a book, The Fat Kid Got Fit.
2:17
Looked that up on Amazon. But ultimately what happened
2:21
with Bill was he went through this whole fiasco.
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He was sentenced to 18 months in prison with the the whole I mean
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and we'll go through this and talk about it and as things
2:32
happened he became a a big advocate for the justice
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impacted community. Once he got through that, he's
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he's still teaching law law professor at Seton Hall and
2:44
prison law and what a what a voice for that and I can't wait
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Success sent you. OK folks, we're here.
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Bill, welcome. Thanks, Brent.
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Great to be with you. Thanks for having.
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Well, I'm glad glad we were able to make it work.
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And I have really been excited to to talk to you because I
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think your experience is is unique because you you were on
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one side of the world and then you came to the other side of
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the world and and then you've because you have an A great
3:58
brain you're now using that great brain for things that I'm
4:03
so interested in and that that's the justice impact community.
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And and what you're doing there is is great work and teaching
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young people in the law community about you know this
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side of the world. What happens when when your
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worst fear becomes your reality and how do you adjust and
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survive and overcome? Take us back a little bit, Bill
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'cause I know, you know what? I know what brought you to where
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you were. But growing up as a kid and all
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that, what what was your world like?
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I I grew up in Hamilton, NJ, a great town in central New
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Jersey. It's still home for me.
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And you know, I got involved in politics when I was a kid.
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You know, my mother was a Irish Catholic, Kennedy Democrat, My
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father's a Republican. And so I came from a mixed
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marriage. And I remember when I was a kid,
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my parents would pack my sister and I in the car and drive us
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over the polling place and cancel each other's votes out.
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That's funny. When I was 14 years old, I
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volunteered for my local congressman, who is still a
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congressman from New Jersey, Chris Smith.
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He was one of those politicians that both mom and dad liked.
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And I worked for his campaign, worked in his office and just
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started working in politics and went on to Washington, DC for
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undergrad at George Washington University, came back to New
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Jersey, had one of the great jobs in politics as a driver.
5:26
I was the driver for the speaker of the State Assembly.
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A wonderful guy named Chuck Haitayan drove all across the
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state of New Jersey. I did 120,000 miles in 10
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months. You can still drop me anywhere
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in New Jersey and I can find a diner and a donut shop in 5
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minutes. You can.
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And then went on to law school at the University of Virginia,
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maybe my three favorite years in life, and became a lawyer and
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moved back home to Hamilton and got involved, continue to be
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involved in politics. You know, in those intervening
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years, I worked as a staff person for Senator McCain and
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and others. And so I came back home and
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eventually ran forms, elected the state assembly from a very,
6:07
very Democratic district, beaten incumbent 4 years later, went to
6:10
the state Senate. And as you were kind to say,
6:13
about halfway through my term in the state Senate, you know, and
6:16
I was always a very independent legislator.
6:19
I was always a legislator who sort of voted my constituency.
6:23
I had a very Democratic district and I was able to get elected,
6:29
re elected and re elected really working hard for my
6:32
constituents. But I also had a voting record
6:34
that was very much in the middle.
6:36
You know, I was the cast, the deciding vote for medical
6:38
marijuana for sick people and I cast a vote for raising the
6:44
minimum wage. Always stood with working people
6:46
and people who were in organized labor cast the first ever vote
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in the New Jersey legislature for marriage equality, an issue
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I care passionately about, sat on the Judiciary Committee and
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had some introduction to criminal justice issues.
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On the other side, Governor Christie asked me to go to the
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Port Authority, especially to help jumpstart the seemingly
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frozen building of the World Trade Center.
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When I remember the night before I started at the Port Authority,
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the night before, 60 Minutes did a story about the World Trade
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Center being one big hole in the ground, and I was determined to
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work with others both in New York and New Jersey to get to
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change that. Now, across the street from
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where I'm sitting right now in lower Manhattan is the World
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Trade Center. And you know, that's something I
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was very proud of. And of course the Port Authority
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I've. Got to ask you though Bill cuz
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that's such a most people everybody knows about that
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because when the, you know the World Trade Center has crashed
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and and crumbled there was a lot of talk about that and I don't
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think you know that is such a a big part of commerce and things
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that happened in the United States.
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When you took that over. I mean what was going through
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your mind that this is because you did a lot of work in that.
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I mean you you you did some stuff with port where people
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could bring in more they raised the bridge.
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I mean you did, you did a lot of things that are, I would think
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would be hard to get done in that environment because you are
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dealing with both sides and things move like molasses.
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But what were your thoughts when you got appointed into that
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position? Well, you know it it is.
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I always joked that, like going to the Port Authority in the
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role that I had is like drinking from a fire hose.
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But eventually you just get used to being wet and you know you
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just every minute. It was a great job.
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It was a great organization. Some great people I got to work
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with, regardless of how it all ended for me, some extraordinary
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dedicated public officials who did some amazing things like
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raise the Bayonne Bridge and build the World Trade Center and
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work on the airports and work at the port itself.
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And it was a great, great organization, did some great
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work. But for me, I mean it was a
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mission, right? It and and it was a mission to
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get the World Trade Center rebuilt and opened and we did
9:04
it. You know, the first was to open
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the the memorial itself, the pools for the 10th anniversary.
9:09
We made it by about two weeks and that was working around the
9:12
clock, seven days a week. It's not something I ever
9:14
imagined my career. But one of the things I think
9:16
that all of your listeners and you and I have both experienced
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is you can't actually plan it all out.
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Like when I went to the Port Authority and, you know,
9:24
whatever was March of 2010, I never imagined I didn't end up
9:27
in federal prison. But like that's, you know, what
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the story is, is about overcoming adversity.
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And so I, you know, I went to the Port Authority and took that
9:40
role and had it an extraordinary experience there and did some
9:43
great things working with people who really committed people.
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You know, not only is the Port Authority often divided
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geographically, New York and New Jersey, but it's also sometimes
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divided partisanly Republican and Democrat.
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I just had the experience as a as an elected official of
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working across the aisle. So when I got to the Port
10:00
Authority, I was used to working with people of different
10:02
political party, different ideological back.
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It would. Have been a big deal.
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Yeah, I mean, I had the opportunity and you know, and
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with the with a guy named Pat Foy, who was the appointee of
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Governor Cuomo, then Governor Cuomo to the Port Authority.
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So, you know, so interestingly enough, so Pat sort of came out
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of somewhat of a Republican tradition who was appointed by a
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Democratic governor. I came out of a very moderate
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position appointed by a Republican governor.
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But as I like, you know, Pat and I and Pat and I didn't always
10:28
get along from a policy perspective, from a personal
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perspective, we used to joke with two Irish guys and we can
10:35
work it out. And I have a great deal of
10:37
respect for Pat, even well. As a fellow Irishman, I noticed
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that you are also a citizen of Ireland.
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Is that correct? I.
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AM and I. It's a very complicated story
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that I'm very proud of that you know, I at.
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In December of 1971, I was born in Jacksonville, FL, spent 6
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great weeks there. I was.
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My birth mom was an Irish woman who came over to Jacksonville,
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FL to give birth to me. An incredible sacrifice by an
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incredible woman. Real courage, real dedication to
11:13
me and allowed me to be raised by two amazing parents in
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Hamilton, NJ who came down six weeks after I was born and came
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and adopted me and I grew up in Central New Jersey but mom and
11:24
dad who raised me. Mom was first generation Irish.
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Dad is 3/4 Irish. So that's is through my mom,
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Geraldine, who raised me that I got my Irish citizenship.
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But I always just say I was an Irish guy with an Italian name
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for New Jersey politics. That's a perfect combination.
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Perfect. Exactly.
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I spent a lot of time in Ireland with the to the great credit of
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the prosecutors in my case and Judge Wiginton who oversaw my
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case, that during the years throughout the investigation and
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the indictment and the trial, they never objected to allowing
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me to go home to Ireland. And so I still spend a lot of
12:01
time there at home in double. So you have a relationship with
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your birth mom? Well, well, you know I was just
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telling a story about about how I was I was adopted and but I
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have met a number through DNA, met a number of my Irish family.
12:20
But you know it it, it's interesting because you know,
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even during I remember when Bridgegate all first blew up, I
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went home to Ireland, I mean within days.
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Of course I never imagined where it would go.
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I just thought it was a big political issue, never imagined
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the criminal justice issue and most certainly never imagined in
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December of 2013 when I was fired and got on days later, got
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on a plane, got my Irish passport back and went on a got
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on a plane at Dublin, sitting there on Grafton Street in
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Dublin, which is like the 5th Ave.
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I guess you could say, of Dublin sitting at this great cafe.
12:54
I never imagined that I would be, you know, about to enter
12:59
this nightmare of investigations and indictments and trial and
13:04
appeal and prison and the Supreme Court and winning in the
13:08
Supreme Court. I mean, I'm telling you when I
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was sitting there at Bewley's Cafe having, you know, soda
13:12
bread and and coffee that, you know, three years later, just a
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little over three years later, I'd be sitting in federal prison
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having, you know, instant coffee and, you know, stale bread.
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I just, it wasn't one nightmare that I feared.
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It was a nightmare I couldn't conceive of.
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Right? Sometimes even harder, right?
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I mean it's it's it's a nightmare you're living, right?
13:37
And the other day I was doing this great podcast with a with a
13:40
great lawyer in New Jersey who said he talks to a number of his
13:43
clients about going through the criminal justice process and he
13:46
tells them it's not a it's not a Sprint.
13:49
It's a marathon. And I said never, never argue
13:52
with the podcast host, but it's not a marathon because a
13:55
marathon is something that ends. I've got 2 great cousins from
14:00
Ireland who run a lot of marathons and they know at the
14:05
end of 26 miles there's the end. But when you go through a
14:10
nightmare, when you go through a criminal justice, you don't know
14:13
when or quite frankly if there is going to be an ending.
14:16
So you just keep going through and you get up every morning and
14:18
you just get through the day and you get up the next morning.
14:20
You just get through the day. A lot of it goes to our our
14:24
friends, our brothers and sisters in the sobriety movement
14:27
who have to do that each and every day.
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And in no way am I comparing what I went through to the
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battle that amazing people do every day in the sobriety world.
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But I learned from them and I learned directly from them that
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one way to get through something very, very hard is just to get
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through the day and whether that's the investment.
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Just through the investigation phase for me, where, you know, I
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took a job at an amazing law firm in Princeton, NJ, hired me
14:53
after I was fired from the Port Authority after the world blew
14:56
up. And I was on the front page of
14:57
every newspaper in the world and on TV day after day they hired
15:01
me. And every day I'd take the train
15:03
to the office and I'd pass the Newark Federal Courthouse, where
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I knew that the, the, the folks of the United States Attorney's
15:11
office were investigating me. And so I was there seeing that
15:17
every day. And it was hard, it was hard to
15:18
go through that. Well, I mean, I can't imagine
15:22
with all that, you know, you get getting into a situation like
15:28
that is one thing, but having it as public as it was, there's
15:32
nowhere to hide, you know, there, there, there's nowhere
15:34
for you to go. Literally no one.
15:36
I remember getting up one morning right when, you know,
15:39
when the e-mail came out and the Bridgegate case became a federal
15:43
investigation. I remember a couple days later,
15:46
it was a Saturday morning and I got up to go to the gym and I
15:50
walked over and got a coffee at Starbucks.
15:54
And the Starbucks used to sell these things called newspapers.
15:57
They were a thing back then. People would and I there at the
16:02
front page of the New York Post, There I was, you know, a picture
16:05
of me and the word cover up. I had my, my, my Duke basketball
16:10
hat on and I lowered it just a little bit and I walked over to
16:13
the gym, you know, got on the elliptical machine and I looked
16:18
up on the TV's above the elliptical machine and there I
16:21
was. And I remember the person next
16:23
to me, an elliptical machine, sort of looked at me and looked
16:26
up at the TV and looked back at me and you know, it was
16:29
everywhere. You couldn't, you could not go.
16:32
It was a big. Yeah, there was a big story.
16:34
So in that, in that world, Bill, how did you, how did you begin
16:40
to survive working in a in an environment where you there was
16:44
nowhere to hide, you had to fight, you had to battle, but it
16:49
was something that you would have never have dreamed of.
16:51
You know, it's interesting. I had a great piece of advice
16:53
from my old friend. It's still my friend Jim
16:55
Mcgreevey had been governor of New Jersey.
16:56
We very much did not agree on politics when he was governor on
17:00
a number of areas. But he was one of the people who
17:02
reached out to me when Bridgegate really blew up.
17:05
And he said to me that because he had gone through his own
17:08
tribulations when he came out and left the governorship.
17:12
And remember, he said that times like this are like standing on
17:14
the beach or those of us from New Jersey to the shore.
17:18
And you're standing on the shore and a wave is about to come and
17:22
you see the wave coming and you can't run away.
17:26
So you're there on the beach and the wave is coming.
17:28
And you have two choices. Choice number one is you fight
17:33
and you throw your arms around and you get all upset and you
17:36
try and stop getting wet or you let the wave hit you and you let
17:42
it go back out. Either way, you're going to get
17:44
wet. One of the two is better for you
17:46
mentally. And I thought that was a really
17:48
astute thing. And because at the time, you
17:52
know, 90 something percent of the people in my life
17:56
disappeared. Now part of that group, they had
17:59
to because because so many people in my life were either at
18:02
the Port Authority or in politics or in the governor's
18:05
office and some a significant number of those people were
18:07
actual potential witnesses in the investigation.
18:10
I'm a lawyer. I was a lawyer then my cast of
18:13
thousands, some amazing lawyers represented me.
18:16
Because you can't talk to those people.
18:18
I'm not talking about those folks.
18:19
I mean that it's people who were not witnesses in the case, who
18:22
were not involved in the case, who disappeared like AI had some
18:25
dread disease just like they disappeared.
18:28
And everybody that I've talked to in the Justice Impact
18:30
community, whether you're in a case as high profile as
18:33
Bridgegate or you did something that you know in in in your
18:36
hometown and everybody gets has that experience.
18:40
It's the 10% that stick. It's the people who run towards
18:44
you. That's it's a very painful way
18:48
to find out who your friends are, but it's there is a gift
18:51
you get from that to find out who your friends are, who run
18:54
towards you. I was very fortunate that I have
18:57
a group of friends here, both in New Jersey and also in New York,
19:00
especially in the LGBT community who ran towards me when this was
19:05
happening. That didn't away, that didn't,
19:07
that didn't see. I I know my closest group of
19:11
friends, they were all talking to each other because every
19:14
night one of them would call and ask me for dinner.
19:17
Like they constantly people outreach and and and and then
19:20
you'd find strangers people who had.
19:23
People he didn't expect. I mean people at the Starbucks
19:26
because it was on the news, it was everywhere, right?
19:28
And people would, you know, I remember the day I was
19:30
convicted. So I was convicted and the
19:33
timing of the conviction was right before the 12:00 news.
19:36
So we were live on the 12:00 news.
19:38
And I remember after I was convicted, the judge of court,
19:42
you know, gave us bail. We weren't getting locked up,
19:44
that we weren't getting remanded that day when the train come
19:46
back to New York City, get off the train at Penn Station and
19:49
walked into like that one of those cafes to get a coffee or
19:52
something. And this random stranger who
19:57
I've never met before, I've never seen since.
20:00
I'm standing there. He looks at me and goes.
20:01
You've had a tough day and bought my coffee.
20:05
Wow. Right.
20:06
You know, and part of understand, part of getting
20:09
through a nightmare is realizing the cliche, oh, you know, you're
20:11
going to get through it, which is true.
20:13
But there's also the other the other truth is that there's
20:15
people out there who are going to help you get through it, even
20:17
if you don't think so. And people that you don't expect
20:20
you. Know somebody else said to me
20:22
during actually said said Let the people who want to love you,
20:26
love you. Let the people who want to
20:27
support you, support you. And sometimes that's hard to
20:29
remember going through some. And when you were when you were
20:34
going through the the the the nightmare of this, I know you
20:40
had to make some difficult decisions too because you got
20:43
down to a strange environment where you were appealing your
20:47
situation but you were also having to decide should I go
20:51
into prison because you when it finally came in you had the
20:56
choice I've got 18 months to go in serve.
20:58
I'm I'm I'm hoping you know whether you I think you say this
21:02
in a lot of different things. You've got one out of 10,000
21:04
chances for the Supreme Court to take you up and you're a
21:08
convicted felon that's trying to get this overturned.
21:10
And it was interesting you talked about going to to Outback
21:15
with your dad and and you decide I'm going to do both because I'm
21:20
going to go to prison and I'm going to fight this.
21:24
And you went in and what was what was going through your
21:28
mind? Bill as a guy that had been on
21:32
the other side of the world, had done some incredible things and
21:35
legislature and been on a number of boards and done some politics
21:40
and and and your personal life and all those different things
21:43
and you're standing before the judge and they say that you've
21:47
got so many months in prison. What?
21:51
What did that feel like? What was that world to you then?
21:54
Yeah, I want to you know, a couple of things.
21:56
But first of all, there's certain decision making points
21:59
when you go through something like this.
22:02
And I would say one of the first big points was the opportunity
22:06
to plead guilty. You know, 98% of federal cases,
22:10
every criminal case brought by any federal prosecutor, 98% of
22:14
them end up in a plea. Of the 2% that actually go to
22:18
trial, 90% of those people are convicted.
22:22
So you know it's better, it's a good.
22:23
Winning percentage. Exactly right.
22:25
I mean, the government's not going to lose and quite friendly
22:28
in my case until the Supreme Court, they didn't, you know.
22:30
So there's a lot of pressure to plead guilty.
22:34
And the government in my case three or four times offered a
22:38
plea deal. And the problem is, and the
22:42
blessing is that I have a dad who grew up in the South Bronx
22:45
and Bill Senior. When I would talk to him about
22:47
this, it was it would have broken his heart for me to plead
22:50
guilty to something I believed was not a crime.
22:53
The Supreme Court ended up saying it's not a crime.
22:55
Pressure is immense just to get it over with the nightmare,
22:58
let's get it over with. And you know, there were times
23:01
it was very dark times, very hard times where I just thought
23:04
take this cup away from me, like let me just plead guilty, go in
23:08
and move to Dublin, work in a pub, like, I mean, just get this
23:11
over with done. With it.
23:12
Right. But my father, it would have
23:14
broken his heart. It would have broken his heart.
23:16
It would have. It was better for Bill senior
23:19
for me to go to. I remember him saying, I
23:20
remember that it was better for me to go to prison and come out,
23:25
then plead to something I didn't do.
23:26
And of course I would say, my my father would say we don't plead
23:29
guilty to stuff we didn't do. We don't plead guilty.
23:31
And I was like, well, we don't go to prison.
23:33
Right. And but for him it was it was
23:35
better for me to make that decision not to plead.
23:38
And the second key decision point was when?
23:41
So we get convicted sentenced. How?
23:44
Long did that process last for you, Bill I.
23:46
Was convicted in November. Well, I was indicted in May of
23:49
15, convicted in November of 16. So that's a year and a half.
23:54
And then it wasn't until November of 18.
23:57
So two years later, the Court of Appeals decision came down.
24:00
So it's two years, right. And my appellate lawyer, who was
24:03
somebody I went to law school with and still a dear friend,
24:05
Mike Levy. You know, in the trial, the
24:09
trial practice, I was reviewing documents.
24:11
So there's something that I was involved in working with my
24:14
lawyers, Mike Baldessar and Jen Mara, 2 amazing trial lawyers.
24:18
But in the appeal, there's nothing for me to do.
24:20
I just sat there for two years. When the Court of Appeals
24:23
decision came down, they threw out half the charges, but they
24:25
kept half the charges. I had another decision, right?
24:28
And my biggest fear was not my ability to get through federal
24:31
prison. I'd be fine.
24:33
Number of people I'd talk to, I'd be, I'd be fine.
24:36
But you know, my biggest worry was what would happen to Dad in
24:39
June. You know, they were in the 70s
24:41
at the time. The last thing I wanted is
24:42
something happened to them and I'm sitting in prison and
24:44
couldn't be there to help. I'm one of the two caregivers
24:47
for them going and. That happens a lot.
24:49
Yeah. And I just made the decision
24:50
that day that remember it very, very clearly.
24:54
And by the way, it was not a hard decision.
24:56
This was not some like rend my garments, what do I do?
24:58
It was a very quick decision. Let's get this over.
25:00
And I remember going to see Mike Levy, my appellate lawyer, and
25:04
saying Mike, let's let's do two things at once.
25:06
Let's go in, burn the time, get it over with and let's take the
25:10
one in 10,000 chance that we go to the Supreme Court and win,
25:14
let's do both. So I chose to ask and I remember
25:17
you were mentioning go down to to the Outback Steakhouse in
25:20
Hamilton, NJ and and over grilled salmon and Bloomin Onion
25:24
tell dad in June that I was going to go to prison.
25:26
And Dad understood that this was not, this was like, let's get
25:31
this done, never thinking the Supreme Court would actually
25:34
take the case. So I made the decision to go
25:37
into prisons with no question because, Dad, in June, I had to
25:42
get out to help them. Now Bridget Kelly my my Co
25:44
defendant and friend had young kids.
25:47
She had every incentive to stay out as long as possible and hope
25:51
The Supremes took the case. So we both made the right
25:53
decision. People say to me now, oh, you
25:55
must regret going in. Not for a second, Brent.
25:58
I tell you when you're making key decisions in life, you can't
26:02
look back and say, well, you know, if I would known then but
26:04
I didn't know this was the right decision at the right time for
26:08
me, for my future, for dead in June, for getting it over with.
26:13
And quite frankly that you know, I go in on April 9th, 2019, John
26:18
Hollab, who he and his wife had been roommates of mine years
26:21
before, picks me up at 3 something in the morning on a
26:25
Tuesday morning. I remember the night before was
26:28
a Monday night, had a going a small going away dinner at a
26:33
family that we were very close with went back.
26:35
Such a weird thing, isn't it, when you that that those hours
26:38
that tick away before you go into prison?
26:40
Exactly. Right.
26:40
And I remember going home to the house I grew up in, where my dad
26:45
still lives. John was going to pick me up the
26:48
next morning, and Dad and I sat in the living room.
26:51
And June, we sat in the living room and watched the University
26:54
of Virginia, where I had gone to law school, win the NCAA
26:57
National championships for men's basketball and quite frankly,
27:01
had Bridgegate or prison or any of that ever happened, there was
27:04
no chance I was sitting in the living room watching that game
27:06
with my father. I would have been either at the
27:08
game or watching it somewhere else.
27:10
And it was an interesting moment because it humbled me, but it
27:15
put me in the right place because that that living room
27:18
that night watching UVA basketball with my dad, probably
27:21
the only time any school that I went to is going to win the
27:24
national basketball championship was the right place to be in.
27:27
The next morning John picked me up and we drove the four hours
27:30
to Loretto Federal Prison. And that Tuesday morning, at
27:33
nine O 2 in the morning or something, I walked into federal
27:36
prison not imagining that the 18 month sentence that I had would
27:40
end up being shortened to three months.
27:43
And three months later the Supreme Court of the United
27:45
States took my case. And to the again, to the credit
27:47
of the government, the prosecutors and the judge, I was
27:51
out of prison 2 something days later and John Hollab, my friend
27:55
drove back across the state to pick me up and drove me home and
27:59
and that's. Incredible.
28:02
I wanna I but I wanna go in bill and and to walk into those gates
28:06
before I do somebody in in a group.
28:09
You know the white Collar Support group.
28:12
I'm Our Success Podcast is sponsored by the White Collar
28:15
Support Group, the world's first support group devoted to people
28:18
navigating the White Collar criminal justice system.
28:21
I'm a member of the White Collar Support Group.
28:23
I'm going to tell you that there's a bunch of people who
28:25
help each other through the criminal justice journey for
28:28
free. Whether you're just starting
28:30
your journey or you've made it through to the other side, this
28:33
is a great space for you. You can join us on Zoom Monday,
28:36
7:00 PM Eastern Time, 4:00 PM Pacific.
28:39
For information, go to prisonis.org.
28:42
That's prisonis.org. Start here.
28:45
It's a great organization and actually, Bill, that's where.
28:51
That's where my. Guest is not supposed to talk
28:52
about the advertisers, but I have to tell you, the white
28:54
collar support group and the work that Jeff Grant and you and
28:57
others have done hundreds and hundreds, they just had AI think
29:01
their 400th. Meeting.
29:02
Meeting the other night and this is an amazing organization of
29:06
people, even maybe somewhat especially people who are done.
29:09
They're out, they're finished, time is done.
29:12
Yet they're still dedicated to this community and, you know,
29:16
join it, support it, listen to it, participate in it.
29:20
For people who are going through this process, there is no
29:23
greater resource out there. So please.
29:26
Totally agree with you. I appreciate that, Shout out
29:29
Bill. So walking in to prison thinking
29:34
you're going 18 months, what is your world like in an arena that
29:39
you never thought you would enter?
29:41
Never imagined that this would be something that you were
29:43
walking into. What and how do you?
29:48
What are the strategies you use to enter that world?
29:52
I think one of the first important strategies is to
29:55
prepare walk to other people, including the white collar
29:58
support group. But others who have gone through
29:59
it maybe gone to the same place. I had the fortune of talking to
30:02
a couple of different people who had been to Loretto and so
30:08
that's the first thing is to prepare.
30:10
The 2nd is to humble. Humble yourself.
30:13
You know, realize that you're no better than anybody else that's
30:17
in there. See those of us who come out of
30:19
the political space or the leadership space or the CEO of
30:23
the widget company or something. You know you're no better than
30:27
anybody else. And humbling yourself before you
30:31
go in is important. I think.
30:33
Third, realizing that it's going to be over.
30:35
You're going to get through it. The worst day is the day before
30:38
you go in. I agree.
30:41
Right. And of course every case manager
30:43
in every federal prison in America says, you know, your
30:45
first day in is closer to one day out.
30:46
But in some ways mentally I thought like in some ways I
30:50
walked and goes, there's nothing else they can do to me.
30:52
The. United.
30:53
States. The United States this.
30:54
Is the Rock Bottom United? States government is putting me
30:57
in federal prison and darnest not, they're not going to beat
30:59
me. And the other one of the other
31:01
tips is put the rocks down. You know, the anger, betrayal,
31:08
sadness, hurt, bitterness, And no matter what your case is, and
31:12
everybody I served in Loretto with and everybody I've spoken
31:15
to served elsewhere, there's feelings of betrayal or anger or
31:21
lack of trust. And you have to put that down,
31:25
yeah. Bitterness will kill you.
31:27
It's like carrying those bricks around the track.
31:30
It's not worth it. And and.
31:31
Bill I think the other thing that you said there which is
31:34
such a huge thing and and and or the inside or the outside is
31:39
humbling yourself because you know looking around seeing who's
31:42
getting their time right maybe the way you want to do your time
31:46
and and you know asking them how they're getting.
31:50
I I, you know, I looked around and thought, yeah, there's a guy
31:52
that's reading books that I, I like.
31:54
There's a guy that's doing a workout routine that I, I I
31:57
should do or there's a person over here who's got a prison
32:00
job. How do I get but humbling
32:03
yourself and just figuring out, you know, and then asking them
32:06
how they're getting through it. You know, it's it's like getting
32:08
the answers of the test before the test a lot of times.
32:11
And you know, it's a very primitive environment.
32:13
So you're right, everybody. When you walk in there, you
32:17
don't walk in with anything but yourself.
32:19
You walk in as Bill Baroni, Brett Cassidy, and you survive,
32:23
and it's whatever you make of that is how you survive it.
32:28
Yeah, and all the cliches that you hear are true.
32:30
Keep your head down, do your own time.
32:33
It's it's don't do anybody else's time and be respectful to
32:39
people around you. Understand that all of us have
32:42
different journeys that we got there.
32:43
It's actually one of the reasons I helped start the prison
32:46
visitation fund along with my colleague and friend Gordon
32:48
Kaplan, who himself went into Loretto different time than me.
32:52
But you know, when I was there at Loretto, I had the good
32:56
fortune of having family visit. Story I'll tell you in a second.
32:58
But a lot of people didn't and didn't have the, you know,
33:01
family just couldn't afford to come visit there was expensive.
33:04
My friend brother Palmer from Baltimore, not that many hours
33:07
away from Loretto family for years, could not afford to come
33:10
visit him in prison. Yet we expect people to get out
33:14
of prison and return to their lives, right?
33:16
So the prison visitation fund to raise money to help people, to
33:20
afford to be able to go visit their family members.
33:22
Now for me, visits were, I think for everybody.
33:25
Visits are a big deal. You know, I remember, I remember
33:28
I was there in prison about a week and a half and I was doing
33:32
fine. I had done all the things I just
33:34
said. I prepared for it.
33:35
I talked to people, I kept my head down.
33:36
I did my own time and I was there about a week and a half
33:39
and I was sleeping fine. I the first night I was in
33:41
Loretto, I slept fine. I knew this was going to be over
33:45
with. I was going to do these 18
33:47
months or so and get home. So I was there about a week and
33:50
a half and Dad and June were going to be my first visitors.
33:53
And they were they the Friday night before they drove across
33:57
from Hamilton, NJ to Loretto. They stayed the night the Friday
34:00
night at the Courtyard by Marriott in Altoona, PA.
34:04
I talked to Dad, as I did every night, the night before.
34:06
And I said, look, pop, visiting is 8:30 to 2:30.
34:10
Get here about 8:00, 8/15. Go through security this way we
34:13
can visit for six hours, I said. But at 9:30, they shut
34:16
everything down. So I'm either with you and get
34:19
counted in the room or I got to go back to my bunk and you sit
34:21
in the parking lot. Oh, no, my father.
34:22
Former military guy. No, we'll be on time.
34:24
Don't worry about. We'll be there.
34:26
Fine. So I get up.
34:27
I can put my green uniform, my boots on.
34:29
Getting ready for the visits now. 830.
34:31
They start calling guys into the visiting room, and I'm not
34:35
called. You know, bear report of the
34:36
visiting room. Fingerhut report of the visiting
34:38
room. Park report of the visiting
34:39
room? No, Baroni.
34:40
It's now 845, and my father is so prompt.
34:43
He's always on time. He's like and all of those very
34:46
worries that drove. Me.
34:49
Like it'd be an accident. Somebody got sick, they're in
34:51
the hospital, they got lost. All those things that caused me
34:55
to go into prison, all of a sudden the I've had no anxiety
34:58
the entire first week. And 1/2 in prison, that moment.
35:01
Unbelievable anxiety. Yeah, it's something had
35:04
happened, 9:00, no dad, 9:15, no dad.
35:07
I'm like, there's really an issue. 930, they call count for
35:12
those of you, for any of your many listeners who've never been
35:14
to prison, that's the moment they call you.
35:16
Got to go back to your bunk on a Saturday.
35:17
It's a big. Deal.
35:20
So I'm like, Oh my God, my father's something.
35:21
This is Terry. I am in full panic and I'm
35:23
walking back to my bunk for Count.
35:25
And I walk past the phones and I quick pick the phone up and call
35:29
my father's cell phone, hoping, hoping he would answer the.
35:32
He answers the phone like, hey Bill, he's like, hey Pop, where
35:35
are you? He's like, we're in the parking
35:37
lot. So what are you doing in the
35:38
parking lot? He said, well, when we got here,
35:40
we drove over and we got here and they just shut everything
35:42
down for count. I said, yeah, Pop, I understand
35:44
that. I thought you guys were getting
35:45
here by 8:00. He said, Oh yeah, when we came
35:46
downstairs at the hotel this morning to come visit, you know,
35:49
they have a, they have a breakfast buffet.
35:53
And my father said what every 70 something year old man of his
35:56
generation would say is that, well, you know, it came with the
35:58
room. Yeah, I said and then he said
36:02
and this is, you know, my God, love him.
36:03
He said Well, and we knew you weren't going anywhere.
36:06
I so identify with that whole story and and I, Bill, I had
36:10
read that story 'cause you. You.
36:12
Talked about it at another interview and and and you were
36:17
talk you're talking about people not getting visits and and for
36:20
me I was one of the very lucky ones.
36:22
I had a wife that came every weekend and then I had some kids
36:26
that were all along the way at the University of Missouri.
36:29
So she'd pick up whoever was up and but there was always that
36:33
'cause it was a four and a half hour drive and there was also
36:37
two times where there was a particular Co that was the
36:43
visiting cop and if the if the room got half full that she just
36:49
said she was shutting it down. So she I had two times when my
36:53
wife and kids showed up 4 1/2 hour drive and she just turned
36:57
them away. So there's a lot of things that
36:59
you deal with anxiety wise that you don't have any control over
37:05
and you have to eat it. I mean it's it's like, you know
37:07
you get emasculated to the point where there was nothing I could
37:10
do about that. There was nothing I could act
37:13
out or do or or solve. And I think that's another thing
37:16
that you go through is, you know, you have to live within
37:19
yourself knowing what you can control.
37:21
And it's very tough because for those who have had control, you
37:25
go into an environment like that and somebody does that to your
37:28
family, You're like, my gosh, I want to do a lot of something
37:32
here. But those moments are different.
37:35
You raise a terrific point about control.
37:37
You know people who have been CEOs or politicians.
37:41
I mean you know you know one one day I'm, you know rebuilding the
37:44
World Trade Center and the next day I'm sitting in federal
37:47
prison. You've lost all control.
37:49
You have to accept that on the way in that you do not and it's
37:52
the people who that again think of the think of standing on the
37:55
the shore when the the the wave is coming in.
37:57
You have no control over the wave.
37:59
Don't try and fight it just you don't have control.
38:02
And in some ways it's part of the reset, right?
38:06
You don't have your phone and you're going through your phone
38:09
every two seconds. You're not looking at the
38:11
e-mail. You know you don't have control.
38:15
Focus on the things when you're there that you can control.
38:17
Getting in better shape physically, getting in better
38:20
shape emotionally, getting in better shape intellectually.
38:24
Read every book you can. You know getting in better shape
38:27
spiritually whatever your faith tradition or no faith tradition
38:30
is you know enhance that, you can control that right.
38:34
Those are things go to Bible study.
38:36
You can go to Ramadan services. You can go to to shul.
38:40
You can you can read a book you have.
38:42
You can take a I mean I was I was you know taking classes A
38:45
true by the way true story Brent.
38:47
So I'm there. It's my first weekend now.
38:49
I was a little bit higher profile when I got there because
38:53
of my case. So people knew, some people knew
38:56
and then of course everybody knew right about Bridgegate.
38:59
So I've actually, I got a nickname very quickly soon
39:01
thereafter that my nickname in prison and I was told this is an
39:04
honor to be given a nickname so quickly name in prison was Billy
39:08
Bridgegate. So imagine being a bank robber
39:11
and everybody walking around going, hey, it's Billy Bank
39:13
robber. Right.
39:13
So it's great. So the cops called the
39:16
correction, always called me Bridgegate.
39:17
So anyway, so I'm there a couple of days.
39:19
Everybody knew I was there. I go to, I guess I took all the
39:23
adult continuing education classes.
39:25
I could just like fill time and why not.
39:26
And one of them was like the great architectural works of the
39:30
world and it was this like PBS or Learning Channel or Discovery
39:34
Channel something like series and you know week 16, week 17,
39:37
week 18 and and we were on the next week and they put the video
39:40
on. I'm sitting there in the back of
39:41
the the the room there on a Saturday night, late Saturday
39:45
afternoon, and this week's great architectural is the George
39:50
Washington Bridge. And the whole room just turned
39:54
around and looked at me and I used an epithet that I will not
39:58
use on your podcast about what the.
40:01
Was that all about? I was like, and you have to
40:03
laugh, right? You you have to.
40:04
That was a great example of a moment of humility, right?
40:08
Like I could get all up and you guys are doing this on purpose
40:10
and we're just you gotta be there's a great old you gotta.
40:12
Roll with it. I I, I had AI had a similar
40:15
situation, Bill, where you know, my dad and me and four other
40:21
people went to prison and it was a pretty big, you know, deal.
40:26
And I got a letter from CNBC that they were gonna do an
40:28
episode of American Greed. I thought it was just one of
40:32
those things that they send these letters out and they would
40:34
never do it. I got a e-mail from my brother
40:37
that said, no, they're doing this.
40:40
So I was with 435 guys. I didn't know what I was going
40:43
to do because I've never seen an American Greed episode where it
40:46
ends up good. I mean it's it's always they
40:49
they, the, even the voice, you know, from the person who does
40:52
it. I thought, you know, I'm just
40:53
going to have to sit here and take this.
40:55
I, I, I don't know what's going to happen in this hour with
40:58
these 435 guys and all the guards watching it and I sat
41:02
there not knowing and I survived it and you know, so it it's
41:07
amazing what you can adapt to. It's amazing what you can walk
41:10
through. And you know when you were
41:12
talking about the night before, nothing is as bad as your mind
41:15
makes it out to be. Not even prison and you know
41:18
starting to step through that is is is part of the.
41:21
But I want to get to the point where you're working through all
41:24
this. You're going through, you're
41:25
going through your prison world, but in the in the rest of your
41:29
world, you've got the Supreme Court of the United States that
41:32
takes up your case. I mean, what are you thinking?
41:35
Well, I again, you know the so we'd applaud.
41:37
We'd appeal to the Supreme Court, as did Bridget.
41:40
I'm in prison and honestly I was doing fine.
41:43
I was working out five hours a day.
41:44
I was teaching GED. I was, you know, I have a very
41:47
Did you? Written the book before you went
41:49
to prison about the fat kid gets fat, yeah.
41:52
Fat kid not fit. I published about oh gosh nine
41:55
years before I went in 10s of people had read the book and so
42:01
I, you know I worked out every day and and I was honestly I was
42:04
fine. I just didn't expect them to
42:06
take the case. And the way the Supreme Court
42:08
work, which I knew before I went in like they will when they
42:11
consider whether to take your case or not, they publish the
42:14
list of the cases they're considering.
42:16
Right. And they never.
42:18
The expectation was they consider it and then they say
42:20
no, they turned us down and they they considered it and didn't
42:23
say anything. They considered it again and
42:25
didn't say anything. It was sort of like, well,
42:27
never. This is June of that year, when
42:29
in April, this is June. And it started to be like, well,
42:31
maybe we got a shot. And then I convinced myself that
42:35
what happened was they decided not to take the case, but one of
42:39
the justices wanted to write a dissent from that, wanted to say
42:42
we should. And then it got to be the last
42:44
day of the term was a Friday was the last day of the term.
42:48
We knew that was going to be the day they were going to turn us
42:50
down or accept the case. And I remember I stuck to my
42:53
routine that day, and I did my workout group with my morning
42:57
workout group. I did my walk with my dear
42:59
friend June Park, as we did every day, because we don't have
43:02
the Internet in prison, as you know.
43:04
So I had talked to my friend Sue Ferrara, who's a former
43:08
journalist and professor and this member of the school board
43:11
in my hometown of Hamilton, very supportive of me, very
43:14
supportive of Dad in June. And I emailed with her the night
43:18
before. I said, look, the courts going
43:20
to put this list out exactly at 9:30.
43:23
Can I call you at 9:40? And you can tell me the case got
43:26
turned out. And she said sure did my walk.
43:29
Cut it off a little bit early 940 walk over the phone area.
43:33
And my friend Cephas, who's a guy I worked out with every
43:35
morning, big guy from Philadelphia, wonderful wonder
43:38
He was a shot caller, very good to me.
43:41
And he's at the other phone. And I call Sue up at 9:40.
43:43
And she's like, upset on the phone.
43:46
I was like, Sue, it's OK. Don't worry about.
43:47
She said no. They took the case.
43:49
They took. I said, no, Sue.
43:50
They didn't take the case. She said no, they did.
43:51
I was like, no, they didn't. I said, Sue, why don't you read
43:54
me exactly what it says? Sure enough, they took the case.
43:57
And I start, oh, my God, Oh, my God, oh, my God.
44:00
And Cephas looks down on me. This, you know, this big.
44:03
He looks down at me, goes, are you all right?
44:05
And and he was like, then the world changed.
44:08
I was like, I knew, just my legal experience, that if they
44:12
took the case, we were going to win.
44:14
Yes. And we'd also, and the
44:16
government within hours agreed to bail.
44:20
So I knew I was getting out, but it was a weekend and they had to
44:22
get the motion right. And Mike, my appellate lawyer,
44:25
was flying back from Asia where clients.
44:27
So he's doing all this on the plane, right?
44:31
And so I ended up getting out Monday.
44:35
But interesting enough Saturday, so the next day, and I told Sue,
44:38
I said would you please call my dad because I can't make another
44:41
phone call for 45 minutes. So Dad and June were already on
44:45
the way to Loretto with another family, the Lou and Dar DeMarco.
44:50
Lou was sad, very sadly passed away.
44:52
But the four of them were driving over for a regular
44:54
visit. They was just coming to visit
44:56
with just to. Visit you.
44:57
Right. It was a very different visit.
44:59
It was a joyful visit. I was, because the government, I
45:01
was getting out, whether it was going to be Sunday or it was
45:03
going to be Monday, I was getting out and we sat there and
45:07
I have this great picture of the five of us at a picnic table
45:09
outside the camp in, you know, outside at the camp.
45:13
And I was going home and there's a smile on all five of our
45:16
faces, Of course. That's the same conversation
45:18
where my father looks at me and he says, he says, you know, the
45:22
only downside of you getting out early is that we didn't get a
45:25
chance to visit. The 9/11 memorial in Somerset,
45:28
PA was just a couple miles away. I looked at my father's like,
45:31
would you like me to stay? I mean, I could.
45:34
So you could go make I. Could call Judge Wiginton and
45:37
say, just kidding, can you leave me here for a while?
45:40
Call, you know, call Chief Justice Roberts and say, you
45:42
know what, never mind, I'm going to stay.
45:44
We got to. Visit.
45:44
We got to take care of, yeah. My father wants to go to the
45:47
gift shop at the 9/11 museum. So anyway.
45:51
That's funny. So you get this.
45:54
You, they release you. Now you're back into the world.
45:58
What's? Yeah, I mean, I love it your
46:00
mind. Usually when people get out of
46:02
prison, they've had, they know when they're getting out.
46:04
Sure, this is different. That's why I'm.
46:06
Curious. Like what in the world was going
46:08
on in your head? The the worst nights of sleep
46:10
that I had in prison were those last couple of nights because I
46:12
didn't know when I was going home because you know, we were
46:14
and of course July 4th was coming up and the guards are
46:17
going to leave and would I be stuck there and shouldn't I be
46:19
out of here and and and. It was kind of you got released
46:24
kind of when all the pandemic stuff was going on.
46:26
No, I was. No, I was ahead, but no, this
46:28
was, I was out in June of 19. Oh, June of 19.
46:32
OK, so you go, the pandemic was a whole another year around, but
46:35
I was gonna say it was gonna be really weird for you to get out.
46:37
And there was a pandemic. Well, you know, it's right.
46:39
So I so I wake up Monday morning and I knew they'd been working
46:43
all weekend. They worked overnight with the
46:45
government to get the right type of motion.
46:47
I knew they had filed with Judge Wigington that first thing that
46:50
morning. Then I knew by about 10:00 she
46:53
had signed the order releasing me.
46:55
This is my trial judge and credit to her.
46:57
And then we waited because the document had to get to Grand
47:02
Prairie that, you know, Mike everything.
47:05
In the In the prison, federal prison world goes to Grand
47:07
Prairie. And and my and Mike spoke to the
47:09
warden at Loretto Grand. Prairie, Texas.
47:12
And the warden said we'd release him now.
47:14
But I need an order from Grand Prairie, Grand Prairie said.
47:16
We need an original. So Sidley sent an associate to,
47:20
like, it was this whole crazy thing.
47:22
So now it's Monday and we knew we're getting closer.
47:25
I knew that John had driven across and sitting at A at a
47:29
diner, you know, waiting, right. And I'm out.
47:33
And now the anxiety is high. Like, I like we're ready to go,
47:36
right. But I didn't know when I was
47:37
getting out, I didn't have any clothes.
47:40
I'm walking the track, I'm listening walking the track.
47:44
There's this great Irish singer named Christy Moore who's got
47:46
this great song Wisdom Varna about mom's home county in the
47:50
West of Ireland. And I'm like listening to this
47:53
music and I'm just like trying to.
47:55
And I see at the the top of the hill officer she and it was an
47:59
officer like pointing at me and and I take the Irish music out
48:06
of my ears and you know Bridgegate come here and I go
48:10
run up the hill and he's like, OK, get your stuff.
48:13
You're out of here. Like that was it, right.
48:16
So I want my stuff. And you know, and you know, you
48:18
know, you remember this when something good happens on the
48:20
compound, it's it's hope for everybody, everybody.
48:24
Everybody feels that sense of hope that something can happen.
48:26
Whole place is this sort of like excitement and I and we had
48:29
lunch and people were coming up. It was really, really great.
48:32
So I got all my stuff and I got called into the to the officers
48:37
in the camp like the little office there and they said OK,
48:40
get your put your stuff over there.
48:41
We're just waiting to get they're finishing your paperwork
48:44
in the main building and just go wait for a little bit.
48:47
So now I'm in the TV room and guys are coming up to me
48:51
congratulations, don't forget us.
48:52
I said never forget, which I didn't, And up on the TV was CNN
48:57
or one of them, and it was me and the thing on the screen,
49:01
says Bridgegate. Figure released and I'm like
49:04
Nope, still here. Not yet.
49:06
Still here? Not quite yet and but again I so
49:10
they then eventually call me over and I'm in the you know
49:14
it's the middle of so I'm in like prison sweats and AT shirt
49:17
I didn't have any clothes to leave with right.
49:19
John didn't have time to pick anything up because we didn't
49:21
know what I was going out. I remember getting in the car
49:26
after the, the, and I'll tell you a story, but get in the car
49:30
with John and we're pulling out of the parking lot a year early.
49:36
And I called Dad and I called Bridget and I called Mike Levy.
49:40
And then I rolled the window down and just let the.
49:45
Took it in. Took.
49:46
It in and it was really overwhelming.
49:48
It was. That's sort of when it hit.
49:51
But you go back to a little story I want to tell you and I
49:53
know our time is coming up. But as I'm checking out and I
49:57
said goodbye to everybody and standing in the lobby of the
50:01
main building that I had been in three months before, when I
50:05
pushed that button went in knowing we were going to win,
50:09
knowing I was not coming back or believing I was not coming back.
50:14
And the Lieutenant comes with my file and all this and he gives
50:20
me, I had signed this and signed that.
50:22
I said to him, I said I just need my driver's license back
50:25
and goes through the file. He said we don't have it, so.
50:29
And he said you can stay here, we can go look for it.
50:31
I said no, no, that's OK, I'll leave.
50:33
So I get in the car, don't have a driver's license and get in
50:37
the car. I wake up in my bunk in prison,
50:39
not know I'm getting out. Now I'm out, go home to Hamilton
50:44
and come back to the city because I didn't have a driver's
50:47
license. And I had all my, my I literally
50:50
went to. I woke up in my bunk and went to
50:52
bed in my apartment. That's so crazy.
50:54
And my super in the in my apartment, it brought my stuff
50:57
up from storage. So I got all these boxes I'm
50:59
looking through. That's like one in the morning.
51:01
I'm looking through for like anything.
51:03
And I need to get a driver's license.
51:04
I didn't have anything. So the next day I got went back
51:07
down to Hamilton. Dad and June picked me up and we
51:10
drove over to the DMV to get a replacement license.
51:14
But all I had, I couldn't find my birth certificate.
51:16
I couldn't find my Social Security card.
51:18
All I had was an expired driver's license and an expired
51:23
passport with a hole in it. And I get the little form and I
51:26
get up in line #9. I'll never forget it, Brent.
51:29
It's like it happened yesterday, getting line #9, crazy DMV, all
51:34
this stuff. And I get up to the counter and
51:36
there's a woman behind the counter who's probably been
51:39
doing car registrations and driver's licenses.
51:42
It's Henry Ford was making them and she doesn't look up.
51:48
And she, I hand her the form and the expired driver's license,
51:51
the expired passport. She doesn't even look up.
51:54
She says I can't accept these. And she looks up because I I
51:58
don't know what to say. She looks up and she looks at
52:00
me. We both look down on her desk
52:03
and a copy of The Trentonian, which is a newspaper in my home
52:06
area. And I'm on the front page.
52:09
Right. And she sort of smiles and she
52:12
says to me, she nods her head and she says, do you have a
52:15
credit card? I said, yeah, give her a credit
52:18
card. She starts typing and she says,
52:19
you know, I'm from Hamilton, so great.
52:21
Me too. And she said, you know, I always
52:23
voted for you. So I know you from Saint
52:26
Gregory's church. You never came to my door, but I
52:28
know you from church. I said, oh, thank you.
52:30
She said everybody around here knows what happened and I'm so
52:34
happy for you and you're going to win and you got to be strong
52:37
and we believe in you. People around here know you.
52:39
I'm starting out all the all this sort of like days, months
52:43
of emotions starting to boil up and she gives me the new
52:46
driver's license and she she grabs my hands and she says be
52:49
strong, stay strong. And then she says can I come
52:56
give you a hug? I've never met this woman. 90%
53:01
of the people in my life disappeared.
53:04
This woman who I've never met, gets up in the middle of DMV,
53:09
walks out from out to the main floor, upstanding, and she gives
53:12
this little lady. She gives me this big hug.
53:15
She says be strong, you're going to be OK.
53:18
At this point I'm doing everything I can not to break
53:22
down in tears. Now admittedly, I would not be
53:23
the first person to cry at DMV, but for different reasons.
53:27
And well, this is a big shout out for DMV.
53:30
And and so she gives me a hug and I just, Dad and June are
53:33
sitting in like the waiting areas.
53:35
They don't know what this is all about.
53:37
And I just go walking out because I'm going to breakdown.
53:40
I go walking out to the parking lot to the to to the car and and
53:45
then I lose it. Honestly, I just, it all hits
53:48
you. It all hits me in the parking
53:50
lot of D of the motor vehicle Commission in in in
53:53
Lawrenceville, NJ, a wonderful group of employees who did not
53:56
intend to make me cry and they come outside in June.
53:59
My stepmom was just wonderful. She says, are you OK?
54:02
Are you OK? I was like, yeah, stay strong.
54:05
She remembers me. If I was like, I'm getting a
54:07
far, we got to go right? And they told me and I think it
54:11
should tell everybody who's going through this.
54:14
And by the way, it's not just going through as a justice
54:16
impacted person, it's going through somebody who's had a
54:19
string of bad luck in losing jobs.
54:21
It's absolutely going through real health channel.
54:23
Everybody has prisoners in their own mind.
54:24
It's someone going through loss that there really are people out
54:29
there, good people, who are there.
54:34
And the challenge is not just to recognize that wonderful woman
54:38
behind the counter at DMV who don't know, who gives grace to
54:41
you and says you're going to be OK.
54:43
It's to become the woman behind The Who gives the grace, right?
54:48
And if anything I talked about when you go into prison being
54:50
humbled is when you get out of prison, when you get over the
54:54
sickness, when you get through the loss, when you get the new
54:57
job, whatever your prison is, is to recognize the good things
55:02
that people did for me and continue to do it for other
55:05
people. And that's why your podcast is
55:07
so important. That's why Jeff Grant's group is
55:09
so important. That's why prison visitation
55:12
fund is so important. That's why the work Gordon
55:14
Kaplan does is so important, is not forgetting what we got out
55:19
of it because we got so much taken away from us, including
55:23
freedom, including liberty. And whether that freedom was
55:25
going to prison, whether that freedom is you're sitting in a
55:28
in a cancer ward getting, you know, chemo or whether that
55:31
freedom is sitting at a funeral for a loved one, or whether that
55:34
freedom is not having a job. Right.
55:38
Whatever. Freedom gets taken away when you
55:40
get it back. Right.
55:43
Using that experience, using that pain, that hardship, that
55:48
difficulty. Be the 10%.
55:51
Be the people that runs to someone who just, you know, your
55:54
neighbor gets cancer, go help them.
55:56
Your neighbor's going to prison. Go help them, You know.
55:59
Take what you've suffered, the nightmare you've had, and make
56:04
somebody else's nightmare just a little bit less bad.
56:07
That's so good, Bill. I mean that's that's and and so
56:11
important and and that I think that's why you're such a good
56:14
powerful voice to this the space because you know you've you've
56:20
lived both sides and and you've let's talk about what you're
56:23
doing now. Well, I'm as you mentioned
56:25
before the opening, I'm teaching a lot of Seton Hall University
56:27
Law School I which. I think is awesome.
56:30
At Seton Hall, which is an amazing law school, I taught law
56:34
starting back in 2002, and then of course the Great Interregnum
56:38
of Bridgegate. And I was they were very kind
56:41
and allowed me to come back. I wrote a course for them on
56:43
prison law because when I was in law school, criminal practice
56:48
law was basically cops and robbers was the first selector
56:52
of, you know, investigations and subpoenas and warrants.
56:55
In the second semester was bail to jail, the trial practice
56:59
witnesses. But there's so much as you and I
57:01
both live, have lived so much when it comes to from jail to
57:05
home. Exactly.
57:06
That's the course that I wrote I love.
57:09
That and. Teach.
57:10
And I'm so lucky to have an incredible group of students.
57:13
I guess it's I teach it in the fall semester.
57:16
I teach education law in the spring right now as we as we
57:19
record this. But in the fall, I teach prison
57:21
law and I have about 70 students.
57:23
And these are people that are going to be future lawyers,
57:25
judges, clerks, prosecutors, advocates, you know, and the
57:31
growth, bipartisan growth of focus on criminal justice reform
57:36
and the rights of inmates. And not just when people are in
57:41
prison, but getting out of prison.
57:42
And then coming back into the community I have the the
57:45
opportunity to Seton Hall is a university, one of the few in
57:48
the country that are teaching this and and and really reaching
57:53
out. You know, there's other schools
57:55
like Southwestern Law School in Los Angeles that has a similar
57:59
course really dedicated to bringing this because that's how
58:03
you start to help people who are incarcerated in.
58:05
Absolutely. I I was just thinking I I would
58:07
love to see that taught everywhere because that needs to
58:10
be a part of the curriculum. It really should be.
58:12
And it it really, you cannot understand the criminal justice
58:16
program unless you have the third part of that story.
58:20
Like criminal justice law doesn't stop when Bill shows up
58:23
at Loreto. It stops at the end when
58:27
everything is done. And that's why that and like I
58:29
tell you the the students that I teach, incredible students,
58:33
smart, committed, they wanted them.
58:37
This is not a mandatory course. It's an elective.
58:39
But people want to be involved. And another things I tell my
58:42
students who are far smarter than me, quite frankly, you
58:46
know, these are folks who are going to be prosecutors.
58:47
I want future US attorneys to understand the the prison
58:52
process. I want future politicians to
58:54
understand. Look, I was a, you know, a
58:57
moderate Judiciary Committee member in the state legislature
59:00
and I wish I knew then what I know now about about the process
59:04
and and and people who I hope some of my student.
59:06
I know some of my students are future legislators and future
59:09
judges and future US senators. And I want them to.
59:13
And Bill, I got to tell you that the way that I found you was
59:17
Jeff Grant did a a panel with the American Bar Association and
59:20
you were on that panel and I thought man, I didn't want to
59:23
talk to him. You can just feel your
59:27
authenticity and the passion that you have about and I think
59:30
that's probably been in your DNA throughout.
59:32
But now you have this third rail that you know and and you're
59:37
using it and and it's it's it's powerful because these are the
59:41
things that make a difference. These are the things that that
59:44
can actually make things move. I want to ask you because it's
59:48
been quite a journey with you, Bill.
59:51
What do you think is your biggest take away through this
59:53
whole journey you've been on? I think that, you know, be true
1:00:02
to yourself. And for me, that meant my family
1:00:07
dad in June and met my friends. It's the most amazing people
1:00:11
that I know. I mean, one of my, you know,
1:00:13
it's John. It's people.
1:00:14
Like I always say, if you don't have a John Hollab in your life,
1:00:16
go get one. If you don't have an Andrew
1:00:18
Hawthorne in your life, go get one.
1:00:20
One of my closest friends who became my prison chief of staff
1:00:23
and took care of things when I was away.
1:00:25
And you know people like that. Have those people in your life
1:00:30
be true to yourself, because in the end, know who.
1:00:32
The real people are. In the end, you know, I've had a
1:00:35
I've been very lucky. I've had lots of great titles.
1:00:37
Assemblyman, Professor, Senator, the Port Authority.
1:00:41
World Trade. Why do?
1:00:41
Wikipedia page, yeah. Thanks, but you know six
1:00:47
7325-O5O. 38224 O 4. You never forget it, right?
1:00:53
And and you know, it's part of the story.
1:00:56
And the question is, what do you do with it?
1:00:58
Do you forget that? Do you try and forget that
1:00:59
chapter of life? Or do you do what you're doing,
1:01:01
what Jeff's doing, what Gordon is doing, what I'm doing, what
1:01:05
my friend Dorian Bess is doing, that that that's out there
1:01:09
helping people live through this Because you're going to survive
1:01:14
it. 99 or whatever it is percent are going to come home to your
1:01:17
community. You're going to come home to
1:01:19
your neighborhood. You know 1/3 of every person in
1:01:22
this country, either themselves or their family member or close
1:01:25
friend, has been involved in 100.
1:01:27
Million people. This is not some small group.
1:01:31
And so I think that's a big take away.
1:01:34
And another big take away, we talked about this before is
1:01:38
being willing to humble yourself that you know, just because you
1:01:42
had some great title just because you did some great
1:01:45
things. You know there are difficult
1:01:48
times ahead and I guarantee every person listening to this
1:01:51
either has been, are or will be go through a nightmare.
1:01:55
We all have them. And the question is not will you
1:01:57
have a nightmare, it's how do you get through it, How do you
1:02:00
wake up from that nightmare. And one of the things I and we
1:02:03
just talked about this, one of the best ways to wake up from a
1:02:05
nightmare is have somebody wake you up and be that person who
1:02:10
helps somebody wake up from a nightmare.
1:02:13
And that's why this podcast is so it's.
1:02:14
Powerful. And I'm glad we were able to
1:02:16
talk through it. Me too, though.
1:02:20
I mean your your story is I've been looking forward to this
1:02:23
interview because I've, I've just been fascinated with how
1:02:26
you've gone through it, what you've done with it and and how
1:02:30
you're continuing to help people.
1:02:31
And it's it's a it's a great thing if people want to get a
1:02:34
hold of you. Bill, what would be the best way
1:02:36
to do that? E-mail me billbaroni@gmail.com.
1:02:40
OK. And you do have that book that
1:02:44
you said 10s and 10s of people. 10s of people you can go on
1:02:46
Amazon and you can get a copy of Fat Kid Got Fit and you may be
1:02:50
you're. Very fit by the way, so it
1:02:52
worked. Thank you.
1:02:53
Well, yeah. Listen, you work out five hours
1:02:55
a day and do burpees. You want to talk about
1:02:59
nightmare? I wake up in the middle of night
1:03:00
thinking about doing burpees at Loretto.
1:03:01
Oh. Man burpees.
1:03:04
That is a prison thing, man. Back during back during the
1:03:07
Supreme Court window, before I was, you know, before the court
1:03:09
ruled unanimously in our favor, afraid about going back to
1:03:13
prison. I said no, I'm afraid of going
1:03:14
back to burpees. The.
1:03:15
Burpees the. Burpees.
1:03:16
If the listeners don't know what a burpee is, good, that means
1:03:18
you didn't go to prison that. Means you didn't go to prison
1:03:20
and you can't do any of them. That's right.
1:03:23
And and if you want another book I've got one nightmare success
1:03:26
everybody follow subscribe like if you got anything out of this
1:03:29
and I know you did and oh I want to give a shout out to Homestead
1:03:33
Financial for my podcast room here.
1:03:35
They they're wonderful people. If you got Home Mortgage needs
1:03:38
Greg Afdev is your guy. Reviews on Apple those are
1:03:43
great. They put the show on Spotify.
1:03:45
If you got time to do it. Brentcassidy.com I spell it
1:03:48
wrong. It's Ty, not DY.
1:03:50
And as I used to say when I was writing my emails back and forth
1:03:54
from prison, stay strong. I'll do the same.
1:03:57
Bill Baroni, thank you. Appreciate it, man.
1:04:00
All right.