Latest / Adventures in Adversity: an inspirational podcast / Ep. 60: Remembering Sam - Pam Sharp on family, faith, grief, & suicide prevention

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Ep. 60: Remembering Sam - Pam Sharp on family, faith, grief, & suicide prevention · Adventures in Adversity: an inspirational podcast

• 0:00
  Suicide Prevention Month last two days.
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  Reminder you do not have to struggle alone.
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  There are so many resources out there for you.
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  If you're in the US, dial or text 988 for free and
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  confidential support in English and Spanish.
• 0:18
  If you're outside the US, check out the World Health
• 0:21
  Organization website or the International Association for
• 0:25
  Suicide Prevention and find places and resources near you.
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  You do not have to go through this alone.
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  Take care. We are back.
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  It is Monday morning, Monday morning ish and this is episode
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  60. I am just so grateful and I am
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  extra grateful to have my 40th guest who is very special to me
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  for a couple different reasons. A just because you're a guest,
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  Pam. So all my guests are welcomed
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  into the adventures and adversity family.
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  And then also, I happen to adore your two sons, Jake and Joe, who
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  we're on, I believe it was episode I want to save 45I.
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  I wrote it down. If it's not, I'm gonna actually,
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  when I edit this, I'll put their little faces up.
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  OK, Jake and Joe. Jake and Joe, Jake and Joe,
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  nobody knows who they which one is which, but Jake and Joe,
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  that's all they've ever been known by is Jake and Joe.
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  And Oh my gosh. And so I had them as a guest, as
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  two guests on on the podcast maybe a couple months ago.
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  And then we've since I've like, you know, they've become my my
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  new friends and we support each other.
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  And they are actually two of my, I want to say consistent biggest
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  fans who just give me love on Instagram where I'm like, you
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  liked that? I didn't even like that, but was
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  it good? And like, I'm just like, they're
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  so sweet and it's really cool and hilarious and they are doing
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  amazing things. And we'll get to that as well.
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  But Pam, I wanted to thank you so much for being my guest, for
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  being a fellow mother of fellow sister in Christ and just a
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  fellow human being that is willing and open to sharing your
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  story and the adversity that you and your family have been
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  through. Because I know that what brings
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  us all together is our adversity is different, sometimes the
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  same, but we all feel this pain in life that we have to
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  navigate, right? At different times, different
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  ages, right? And it just never seems to, it
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  just goes up and down and I'm like, it's just not done so so.
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  Exactly. It's not done.
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  There's no break sometimes. Break and so I thought the
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  mission of this podcast, if you're new here before I hand it
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  over and and ask Pam some questions because I, I, I talk a
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  lot and I want to stop. The mission of this podcast is
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  to really showcase and like bring to life real people true
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  stories to provide daily inspiration, whether that's
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  through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Instagram, like however
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  you're catching bits of this or episodes of this certain traffic
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  or working out, whatever to make you feel that whatever age we've
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  got viewers from 18 to 65 to 80, that you are not alone.
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  That adversity, especially during this month of September,
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  which is suicide prevention month, especially to raise
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  awareness for the resources and the people and the community you
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  can connect with if you're struggling.
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  Yeah. So Pam, you have a podcast
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  called Fight Hard Love Much. You are a mom.
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  You are a mental health advocate, which we're going to
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  talk about. Brain health advocate.
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  We're going to talk about that. You're a podcast host and you
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  are someone who has experienced great grief in your life and
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  you're, you're navigating that every day, right?
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  Every still every. Moment so can you talk to me a
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  little bit about first of all, I wanted to say from my deepest
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  deepest heart how sorry I am for your loss of your son Sam.
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  And I know that loss has led to your advocacy and who you have
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  become over the last five years right.
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  Can you, I've been talking so much, I want to hand it over to
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  you just to kind of talk a little bit about your son Sam,
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  some of your favorite memories about him.
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  And then we'll we'll go from there into into our conversation
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  if that's OK with you. Yes, that I I love to talk about
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  Sam just because I mean, I love to talk about all my kids, but
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  Sam came into this life crazy like the I made videos for all
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  my kids a long time ago. It was kind of when DVDs were
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  new and so I had all the pictures and I had somebody put
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  them all together to music. And Sam's song that I picked was
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  I like to move it, move it 'cause he never stopped moving
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  and but he was so funny from day one.
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  Just a character and would say the most random things and quick
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  witted. Like I've never met somebody as
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  as good as he is at being hilarious.
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  Jake and Joe are a close match. Like Jake and Joe, yes.
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  So, Sam. Sam, like Sam.
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  Totally, yes. Yes, he did mentor them.
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  He just was, he was good. I mean at being able to come
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  back with a comeback and a sane and he could make anybody smile
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  like just and that will really was how he lived was making
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  people smile and and you know from elementary school to high
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  school to I just people came out when he passed away.
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  We just received notes after notes of from strangers and kids
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  in classes and they're like Sam would sit by me and I felt like
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  I wasn't alone and or he would smile at me and make my day or
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  say hi or say something funny to me.
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  And and that was just his gift of a big ol smile.
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  He could I I tell a story on one of the podcast.
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  I don't know a long time ago. He one junior high hit is when
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  things started to get rough and he had a hard time going to
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  school and but he the the junior high office workers because that
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  he would miss so much and be in and out or just be late.
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  He would sweet talk them like he would walk in and they're like
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  Sam, it's it's like 1030 what's up?
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  And oh, you know. I mean they.
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  Could not they wanted teachers just wanted to strangle his neck
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  and yet at the same time they were busting up laughing.
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  Teachers would say that he would, they would have to like
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  turn around because they would laugh.
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  And then they would say, Sam, go step outside for a minute
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  because it was so good. And yet you saw that try to have
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  control of the class. But he, yeah, he was just funny.
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  But he bought all of the junior high office workers at the end
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  of well, I bought it, but. Yeah, he he.
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  Bought it together. He bought them all Starbucks at
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  the end of the school year because, you know, just because,
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  because they had to deal with them all year.
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  But that he's just funny. He was just hilarious and he was
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  crazy psycho, you know, like. Well what I what I love about
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  and I'm going to link to your adorable sons page.
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  Jade Bro fit all the videos and reels they share of your family,
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  especially him sneaking videos on you.
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  Oh, the hot mom videos. You're like, yes, you're like
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  enough. Yeah, yeah.
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  The hot mom videos were hot mom, hot mom videos that I was like
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  walking in the grocery store one day.
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  It's like 10:00 at night. I look awful.
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  I'm walking out and two teenage girls are walking in.
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  They're like, Oh my gosh, that's that's a hot mom.
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  And I was like, Oh my, they were so embarrassing.
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  And yes, I was usually so tired but Oh my gosh I love those
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  videos. Because, and, and and yet he's
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  still spreading joy like those. Oh yeah.
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  Literally like I legit laugh out loud and then also kind of now
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  having known your your sons, having spent that hour and a
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  half with them and then just having gotten to know them now
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  I'm like, I just love that it's joy it keep he yeah, memory
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  lives on that way like because that's.
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  People can't watch it without laughing.
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  It's. Really funny.
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  Like I'm not just saying that where you're like, Oh my gosh,
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  these, these guys are comedy. Yeah, yeah.
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  That that was really our house. Our house was crazy and loud and
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  up until the twins had left on their missions.
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  Right before that is when my oldest three had got married.
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  So really all seven kids were living at home for up until
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  about that year. And it was just chaos.
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  I mean it, but we would have. It was so fun at the same time.
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  I Yeah, as a mom, I miss, oh, I missed those years and that so
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  much. But we had a good time.
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  And so, yeah, that was my Sam. That's your Sam and.
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  That was my Sam. Well, and I want to start out
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  with that because I, you know, his memory lives on and the joy
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  of him lives on and he lives on through your kids and through
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  the friendships that your kids now turned adults now and in the
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  mental mental health, brain health awareness that they're
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  spreading in the ripple effect of those videos.
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  And to be honest with you, your son's encouragement has helped
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  me over the last couple months. I've I've gotten some trolls.
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  I've got you know how it like where I'm just like, and then
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  I'm like up J duo Fitz got my back.
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  I'm good. Like it's like I'm like, those
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  are my boys. Like I'm fine.
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  Don't worry about it, Barry. Don't worry about that troll
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  comment you just read. They got you know, you got your
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  crew that keeps you going like great posts.
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  I'm like Oh yeah OK So it all that ripple effect of like the
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  joy and and that you as a mom created in your household is now
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  they're helping so many people. Yeah.
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  And and so I just. Want to be?
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  You're great. Creating that you know.
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  Well, I mean, we definitely have, and you know, we
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  definitely have had our issues and we were not at all perfect.
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  No family is. But I think my kids would all
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  say that, yeah, that we had a good time growing up and and.
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  Yeah. And it was a lot of fun, yeah.
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  And, and, and to be real with you too, like I come from a
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  solid family. We definitely had our moments
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  and like definitely. And then you grow up and you
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  look back at your own family and you're like, whoa, hey, that was
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  not going to be handled differently or not.
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  Wow, they really handled that amazingly.
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  Like, wow, like I really, you know, and it's hard being a
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  parent, it's hard being a human being, and it's hard navigating
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  adversity. So when you have those moments
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  of connection and labs that you can relive on camera, that
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  that's special to have. I will say, you know, talking
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  about how Sam was just so funny and everything.
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  I and I know Jake and Joe get comments like this on their
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  stuff all the time when they post pictures of Indians so
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  funny. And he had a he had a counselor
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  once tell him that, Oh, you're just acting like that to hide
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  it. And and maybe at the end, some
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  of that was sure, but Sam really took offense to that because
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  he's like, no, this is. Who I feel.
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  I, this is who I am. The sadness person is not who I
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  am and I don't want to be that. And I don't like when people
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  say, oh, they're hiding, they're masking it.
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  And because you couldn't have told that to a one year old Sam
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  who was the very same way or the kindergarten Sam, that's how he
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  came. That was he wasn't.
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  Maybe there were times he masked it with his comedy, but that
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  definitely Sam's personality was just fun.
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  And so I don't like that comment that really I to me that's not
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  who he was. Yes, he want, he didn't want
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  people to see the sadness part. And that was where his problem
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  was. Of course he didn't want people
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  to see that there was another side to him, but Sam's fun was
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  who Sam was, and he hated this other part of him and he did not
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  want people to know him for that.
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  So, you know, I don't when people say that like, Oh well,
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  yeah, I had to mask it too. And yeah, there's a certain
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  point of that, but not a 2 year old or a four year old that
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  wasn't. I am so glad you brought that up
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  because when people, when anyone who is struggling with mental
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  health having been there as well, that joy, sometimes that
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  joy, you're like bathing in that joy that you get to have because
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  you know, maybe when you're alone, maybe it's not as easy to
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  access, but like people light you up and it brings out the
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  real you, Right, right, right. That's what you're fighting to
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  get back to all the time. Is that real you?
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  Right, right. He that's what he wanted.
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  Yes. He didn't.
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  He don't. He hated this other side and he
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  didn't want people to see that side.
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  And so I wish Sam would have got to that point of being OK to
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  talk to some of his close friends about it because I know
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  his close friends would have, you know, been right there.
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  It's like they couldn't. He just did not want to have
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  them see it. And they were doing other
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  things. And he wasn't in school at that
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  time. And they were in school and busy
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  and, and he was so happy for him.
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  But yet it was, you know, I, I wish he would have got to that
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  point to talk. And that's one of the things
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  that we have really tried to push since he's been gone.
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  Is you. It's OK to let your friends know
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  and it's OK to let people know and but not to hideaway in your
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  room and not to, you know, so that's a big push.
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  And that's hard for especially teenage boys or boys in general
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  to to let others into that the other side of you that's
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  struggling. And so, yeah, I wish that he
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  would have gotten to that point of being able to open up to his
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  friends. No, and thank you for sharing
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  that. And I think that what you just
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  said is kind of leads into what we were going to talk about, of
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  obviously this is so painful and so difficult.
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  And the question of like, why share this?
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  Why have a podcast? Why talk about this when it's so
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  painful? And what comes to mind for you
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  when it, when I ask you that question of like, it's
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  difficult, but you know, like what fuels you to create this
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  advocacy and keep keep it going, you know, and to delve into a
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  painful space, which I commend, by the way.
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  Well, thank you. Yeah, it's really hard.
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  It is. It is hard and you know, like I
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  still, you're doing so well at keeping it going steady and at
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  the at the beginning I, I did, but you know, we have our other
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  struggles or I hit a dark spot and and it's hard to get it out
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  and it's hard to do it and it's kind of relive or hear other
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  struggles and and yet when I do it, I love it and I'm thankful
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  for it. But when Sam passed away, as
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  soon as he passed away, the thought was you.
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  And I feel like it was Sam reaching out, saying, yeah, you
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  got to you got to help this mom, this because I shouldn't have
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  done this. This was a mistake.
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  So you have got to spread the word.
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  And I, you know, we struggled with Sam for over a year.
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  Yeah, kind of back and forth. And I didn't feel like I, I knew
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  where to go. I didn't feel like anybody.
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  There was no information out there.
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  There was like, what I don't I would, I felt so alone and one
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  that I couldn't talk to anybody that the shame came in of.
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  Look at what a mess your family is right now.
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  I hear you, I I get it. And I just, I, I just did not
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  feel like there was anything to go to our Bishop when I went to
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  our Bishop once, not even necessarily about Sam.
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  It was about our younger 1. And I was like, I, I just can't
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  do anything in the church right now.
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  And he, he finally opened up that he had just had a total
• 18:38
  mental break and, and kind of gave me some resources And I was
• 18:42
  like, Oh my gosh, if you can, maybe I'm not alone.
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  And so I felt like he was somebody that we could open up a
• 18:51
  little bit more to without judgment, but I just was like,
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  there's nothing for. And I know there was if I had
• 18:59
  got on podcasts or started listening, sure, there was
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  stuff, but there was nobody around me that I felt like I
• 19:06
  could go to or. And so the idea of starting it
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  was, I didn't know if people would listen, but I thought
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  there's, I know there's people out there who have to feel the
• 19:20
  same way as I do. And, and it's just, it was one
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  of those things of I want to just be someone that people
• 19:31
  don't have to feel alone and, you know, have a place to, for
• 19:37
  information. Like I didn't, I didn't know
• 19:39
  treatments at all. I didn't know we go to try get
• 19:43
  treatments and the doctor saying this and that.
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  And I'm like, I have no idea what that is.
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  I don't know if it will work. All I know is it's going to cost
• 19:51
  a lot of money. And it just, I just was lost.
• 19:57
  And so I wanted to give people a resource, one of information.
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  But then of people's stories of what they've done and where
• 20:08
  they've had to turn or, you know, wives who husbands have
• 20:14
  have had a hard time and they have to support their husbands
• 20:18
  mentally and the struggle that sometimes can be and, and moms
• 20:23
  and others who have their own like.
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  So I just wanted it to be a place where people could hear
• 20:29
  different stories and maybe relate to.
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  And most of the guests that I've had on have been super willing
• 20:36
  to to say if anybody needs a listening ear, I'm here.
• 20:42
  You know, if somebody has a question, I'm here.
• 20:45
  And a lot of them have done different kinds of treatments.
• 20:49
  So, you know, we've got the ketamine, we've got the MDR,
• 20:53
  we've got the Oh yeah, secondary.
• 20:55
  We've got the TMJEI mean, like we've got or TMS.
• 20:59
  Sorry, TMJ, wrong TMJ. Sorry.
• 21:06
  Yeah, but you know, wrong, wrong section of the brain.
• 21:10
  But yeah, so I don't know, you know, that's just like it was,
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  that was what my goal was, is I didn't want other people to feel
• 21:18
  alone. I just Amen to all of that.
• 21:23
  And I love the name of your podcast, Fight hard, Love much.
• 21:27
  And I'm gonna brag about you a little bit.
• 21:29
  I know that your son's your son. It's a wonderful podcast.
• 21:32
  I've listened to a few episodes and you know, the first thing I
• 21:36
  noticed right when I listened to an episode, for some reason,
• 21:40
  your voice reminded me of one of your sons.
• 21:43
  And I couldn't tell if it was Jake or Joe.
• 21:45
  I literally was like, that sounds like one of them.
• 21:50
  That's scary. I was like, I just was like, oh
• 21:52
  Yep, devil, like that's mom. I can, I can hear mom and I can
• 21:55
  see mom in the eyes, but it's just so cool that you know, you
• 22:04
  were able to and I know everyday is a struggle.
• 22:07
  It's not that anything is over, it's just that you were able to
• 22:10
  muster up the strength. And I do believe that kind of
• 22:13
  inspiration is divine and definitely through Sam and like.
• 22:18
  Oh yeah. There's no, you're just like,
• 22:21
  it's like, OK, I guess I'm doing this because the pull is so
• 22:24
  strong, even though it's hard. Yeah.
• 22:28
  Like it's not all butterflies and roses having a podcast.
• 22:32
  It's. No it it takes some work.
• 22:35
  Yeah, and especially when you're talking about deep pain.
• 22:39
  So it's almost like it's this beautiful thing that is so
• 22:43
  challenging and so amazing. It's all the things, you know,
• 22:49
  so amazing. And I know your your downloads
• 22:51
  have blown up in the past. And so I'm going to brag about
• 22:54
  you. And you know I will brag, brag,
• 22:58
  brag because you're so humble so.
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  Well, I, I appreciate people who are still hanging in there with
• 23:05
  hey or sharing it with others or whatever, you know, you know.
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  I was just telling my kids this morning and they probably
• 23:12
  weren't listening because they're second and 4th grade,
• 23:14
  but you know, they're, I'm always mouthing off about the
• 23:16
  podcast and I'm like, yeah, mom podcast, cool podcast.
• 23:18
  Yeah, cool. Whatever.
• 23:20
  I'm like, I'm like, one day you'll thank me.
• 23:23
  No, but I said, you know, and I was trying to kind of dumb it
• 23:26
  down. I was like, you know why I have
• 23:28
  a podcast, guys like because you talk a lot because adversity is
• 23:33
  like never over and like it's it's somehow turning it into
• 23:38
  this adventure is where you can transmute or try to transmute
• 23:43
  that pain into something good. The pain is still there, but at
• 23:47
  least some of it becomes something that spreads healing,
• 23:52
  right, which leads me to my next question.
• 23:56
  So that's obviously why you're sharing the story you want to
• 24:01
  give back. We talked about that and and you
• 24:03
  mentioned that you noticed Sam started to struggle and maybe in
• 24:07
  junior high and you noticed over that year.
• 24:12
  If anyone is listening, maybe they're an aunt, an uncle, a
• 24:15
  cousin, not even necessarily a parent, but they noticed that
• 24:18
  their friend or their niece or their brother or their daughter
• 24:22
  might be struggling. What would the first looking,
• 24:27
  you know, what would be a first step in your like what you've
• 24:32
  learned? What would be a first step to
• 24:33
  kind of address it? Like if you just don't even know
• 24:37
  where to begin. The whenever I have a mom or
• 24:44
  someone call and that's like, what do we even I'm worried
• 24:47
  about my kid. The first thing that I would say
• 24:53
  is to just sit with them and that may that doesn't always
• 24:59
  make sense to people, but it was one thing that and I'm still I
• 25:05
  still struggle with this with my youngest and but it works when
• 25:11
  you do it, but it takes a lot of a lot of patience and and
• 25:18
  self-control. But to to they'll eventually
• 25:26
  open up. It is, it's the the feeling safe
• 25:32
  to open up about it. And so I tell a story that was
• 25:38
  kind of it's, it's a very difficult story for me to relive
• 25:43
  because of the emotions. I we don't do the blame thing,
• 25:49
  but there are a few things that that I wish I had done
• 25:53
  different. And one was I had been gone to
• 25:56
  work all day and I'd come home and Sam and just got out of bed
• 26:01
  and I was frustrated and, and I thought I was doing really well.
• 26:07
  And I went in my room took, you know, 20-30 minutes.
• 26:12
  Like, OK, I'm going to, I'm going to be calm in this.
• 26:15
  And yeah, exactly. I thought I was doing great and
• 26:20
  came out. And so we sat down and, and the
• 26:23
  thing about Sam is he was never disrespectful to me, which was a
• 26:30
  huge blessing. He was, he, you know, he was
• 26:33
  obnoxious and he did the videos and he, he was just obnoxious to
• 26:37
  me, but he wasn't disrespectful. And so he, we sat down and I, I
• 26:43
  just said, Sam, you can't, you can't live like this.
• 26:47
  Like you're not going to graduate from high school.
• 26:50
  You're not going to go on a mission.
• 26:51
  You're not going to get married. There's not going to be a wife
• 26:54
  who puts up. I said it calm, like I said it,
• 26:59
  I was in control. I thought I was doing really
• 27:03
  well, but I laid out every possible fear and scenario that
• 27:10
  was negative and, and Sam just kind of shook his head and took
• 27:16
  it like he did. And, and I thought I was doing
• 27:20
  well, like I was expressing my concerns.
• 27:26
  The problem was that Sam already knew all that stuff.
• 27:28
  That's what he was worried about.
• 27:30
  He was already worried he wasn't going to graduate with his
• 27:32
  friends. He was already worried about he
• 27:34
  wasn't going to be able to go on a mission.
• 27:35
  He's already worried that he wouldn't be able to find
• 27:39
  somebody or that he would struggle with this his whole
• 27:41
  life. Those were already his fears.
• 27:44
  And all I did was lay it on him and add to it.
• 27:51
  And that I feel like there were, that was kind of a shutdown
• 27:57
  point for him because he already knew all that.
• 28:03
  And all I did was add to it. And even though I said it
• 28:06
  calmly, I was saying it out of concern.
• 28:10
  And but what I wish I would have done is to just come in and sit
• 28:17
  on the edge of his bed and be able to say, Sam, I see.
• 28:22
  It's been a really hard day. How can I help you or I'm here
• 28:28
  if you want to talk and it's a different going with that in
• 28:36
  acknowledging that it being hard for him that it would have led
• 28:41
  to him opening up and and so whenever IA parent calls that's
• 28:47
  that's actually my first thing to say.
• 28:50
  And I've had lots of parents who will come back and and and when
• 28:54
  I follow up with them and say how did things go and they're
• 28:57
  like that worked. That was all they needed was to
• 29:02
  be able to feel safe in opening up.
• 29:06
  And now we can talk about their their fears, their worries.
• 29:11
  And it seems like yes, you should all know that I know that
• 29:14
  like common. Sense wise, we don't do.
• 29:17
  But we don't do it. I gotta tell.
• 29:19
  You, I do it all the time where I lay out the consequences of
• 29:23
  what's gonna happen, and then they start crying and I'm like,
• 29:27
  I mean, yeah, I'm a mother and I'm telling you what's gonna
• 29:30
  happen. That's my job.
• 29:31
  That's what I would think to do, but it's like, maybe I see what
• 29:36
  you're saying. It's it's coming in.
• 29:38
  It's like how you come into that to open exactly, but like
• 29:42
  instead that training on having no exactly nobody ever.
• 29:46
  I thought I was doing great by taking time and calming down
• 29:50
  and. Of course that's what they tell.
• 29:52
  You. There's such yeah, but it's such
• 29:55
  a different. I've I've tried it with my
• 29:59
  youngest. Who?
• 30:00
  Who is not respectful and who really does, who is very
• 30:10
  difficult and who was now also had all of his own trauma and
• 30:16
  and when. So it's super hard to do that,
• 30:19
  but when I purposely do it and take that approach, the outcome
• 30:25
  is so different than when I come in blazing.
• 30:28
  And and so that's and sometimes kids who I mean, all teenagers
• 30:34
  struggle or all people struggle and not everybody needs
• 30:39
  medication, not everybody needs therapy and totally every which
• 30:43
  I totally am AI mean, I totally am great with that.
• 30:47
  And I think that those are good. Things.
• 30:50
  But sometimes the reminding the parents just go in and say, I
• 30:55
  see you're having a hard day and just sit.
• 30:58
  And I, I just in my head, I replay that over if I had said
• 31:02
  that to Sam and I see that you have had a hard day, that it's
• 31:07
  tough to get out of bed today and what would have been the
• 31:12
  difference in that? And not to say things wouldn't
• 31:15
  end up the same or not, but just what would have would he have
• 31:20
  been able to open up a little bit more and not just take my
• 31:24
  fears and add it to his fears? And so that's the first thing
• 31:28
  that I say. And to start there and then
• 31:32
  depending on what that leads to, you know, to find a counselor is
• 31:37
  always my next step. And and not to be afraid of
• 31:41
  meds. I was so surprised when Sam
• 31:44
  passed away. How many parents and teenagers
• 31:48
  came to me because we, you know, we let it be known that our
• 31:53
  house was open and they could come and talk to me with any
• 31:57
  questions or things. And it, it surprised me how many
• 32:01
  parents and kids separate times. We're so afraid of meds.
• 32:08
  Like, I can't put my child on a Med and I'm like, you can and
• 32:12
  it's OK. And the, the, the thought of
• 32:19
  therapy and then the, well, I can't think of the word, the
• 32:24
  negative aspects of that. He is stigma.
• 32:27
  There we go. The stigma of therapy that if
• 32:29
  you went to therapy you would be crazy damaged.
• 32:31
  And. Crazy.
• 32:32
  Exactly. And that was that was a real
• 32:38
  hard 1 to overcome for a lot of people in the neighborhood.
• 32:41
  And yet all of a sudden parents started realizing I can't help
• 32:47
  my child, you know, and Sam passed away.
• 32:49
  The weak covet hit. And so everything shut down
• 32:52
  schools, everything. So the kids had nothing, which
• 32:56
  was another issue. And parents, I'm like, just let
• 33:01
  him go see a counselor. They're like, well, we don't
• 33:03
  want to sign up for a year. And I'm like that's not how it
• 33:06
  works. Like we're, we're talking today,
• 33:09
  we're trying to get through today.
• 33:11
  Yeah, today. And it might be one time, it
• 33:14
  might be you got a time. You don't have to sign up for a
• 33:18
  certain amount. It's not a club membership or
• 33:20
  gym membership. Just go see and see if you even
• 33:25
  connect with that therapist because you might have to see
• 33:27
  another one and, you know, and then they would report back.
• 33:33
  Yeah, I went once or twice and I'm good.
• 33:36
  You know, I know how to, I got some tools and that was all it
• 33:38
  was. And so that, you know, I kind of
• 33:41
  do those steps, but it always starts with just sit and listen.
• 33:47
  Like zip it, zip it the best you can and listen.
• 33:53
  So that's my advice. That's my first advice.
• 33:56
  Thank you so much for for sharing that and being open
• 34:00
  about that. And I got to tell you too, like
• 34:04
  I shared an episode about my experiences and then within that
• 34:07
  experience, I talked about suicide prevention month.
• 34:10
  I mentioned just this from you, what you said reminded me, my
• 34:15
  husband's uncle, unfortunately a year and a half ago passed away
• 34:19
  from suicide. And I got to tell you, the guy
• 34:23
  was the most jovial human you've ever met.
• 34:26
  Very well respected Dr. in Kentucky.
• 34:30
  I mean, maybe one of my favorite humans on the Wilson side, like
• 34:34
  love the guy cracking up. So there is just no way that we
• 34:40
  could all have, you know, even the people closest to him, my,
• 34:45
  my husband's uncle, my husband's dad, they talked all the time,
• 34:49
  all the time, the two brothers. And like, it's just a reminder
• 34:55
  of like you just eat all these things.
• 34:59
  And, and, and, and his uncle had that safe space and had that
• 35:02
  daily call with and he didn't use it.
• 35:05
  You know what I'm saying? So I just want to, like you
• 35:08
  said, even if you had created that safe space, like everybody
• 35:11
  responds to things differently, but looking back, creating the
• 35:15
  safe space is a good start. It's a good.
• 35:18
  Start. It's a.
• 35:19
  It's A and and sometimes people won't enter into that safe.
• 35:23
  It's it might not do anything and sometimes and a lot of times
• 35:27
  it will. We just don't know, right?
• 35:29
  Depends on what the person is going through their brain.
• 35:32
  So many factors by. All so many factors every.
• 35:36
  Yeah. You know, and I will, I will
• 35:38
  say, and we've been talking about this a little bit more, my
• 35:41
  husband and I, Sam had played rugby and he had got a couple
• 35:47
  concussions right before. And yeah, you know.
• 35:51
  Oh yeah. The the how much did that play
• 35:55
  into it? So there you know there there is
• 35:57
  there is a lot of other factors that go into things, but for
• 36:04
  parents especially or or a wife or a husband to me this the
• 36:09
  first start is yeah, create that safe space and you might have to
• 36:14
  really practice not. Talking, it's a change in
• 36:18
  mindset of how you support the people in your life.
• 36:22
  It's actually quite different. Because then when they actually
• 36:26
  do feel safe and they're ready, they, they will ask for help or
• 36:30
  they will ask maybe your thoughts or your opinions and,
• 36:35
  and and then you're open to share.
• 36:38
  But, but it is, it isn't from my side.
• 36:41
  Like I said, I am, I'm not, I still really still get it.
• 36:46
  I just suck at it some days. But it's always there.
• 36:51
  It's always my thoughts of knowing that it is a better
• 36:56
  thing to do. Yes, yes.
• 36:58
  And a place to. Start and I think what in my
• 37:01
  experience as I start to try to change the way I show up I I
• 37:08
  know you're a woman of faith and it's so funny the last probably
• 37:12
  5 guests God has sent me have all faith always comes up I'm
• 37:17
  like whoo all of a sudden here it is.
• 37:20
  I think that I've experienced, tell me if you agree that like
• 37:24
  as you start to surrender and start to work on yourself and
• 37:27
  try to show up better for the people in your life, God starts
• 37:31
  to work on you and you're like almost changing your heart, like
• 37:34
  I'm, I'm into this, but starts to work on you and like show
• 37:39
  you. I get these little pings from
• 37:41
  God where I'm like, oh, and then right before I'm like, wait,
• 37:45
  what are we working on right now?
• 37:46
  And then it's like a gentle, A gentle, Oh, remember, let's
• 37:49
  take, let's take that breath. Not like take the breath like
• 37:52
  we, you're not a God mom right now.
• 37:54
  It's like, Hey, you mentioned to me in that prayer this morning
• 37:57
  that you wanted to, you know, be more Christ like.
• 38:00
  So here's a chance. But if you mess up, I'll forgive
• 38:03
  you if you try again later, right?
• 38:05
  Like. Yes, I feel like that all the
• 38:10
  time. Like God is there.
• 38:12
  OK, OK. Yeah, even in the.
• 38:14
  Hardest, I don't know he is so how has how has your faith
• 38:20
  helped you get helped you integrate this pain into your
• 38:26
  life cause 'cause you don't get through right you you integrate
• 38:30
  and try to help heal, but. Change and yeah, grow.
• 38:34
  And to people of, and I think your sons talked about it too,
• 38:36
  like whether you have faith, if you're listening to this,
• 38:39
  whether you don't, whether you're trying to, whether you're
• 38:41
  like, what is this whole faith thing or maybe you're jaded from
• 38:46
  it. I don't know.
• 38:47
  How would you say faith has helped you along this journey or
• 38:51
  helping you? It's, it's been everything.
• 38:58
  I honestly don't know how people can go through something like
• 39:04
  this without having that, that knowledge or just, I don't know,
• 39:12
  just the promise of peace in there.
• 39:14
  And, and not that every day is peaceful or anything like that,
• 39:18
  but just, it's a different, it's a different comfort.
• 39:24
  But yeah, knowing there's been just so many times when things
• 39:30
  are so dark and hard and miserable and a simple prayer or
• 39:38
  even a a cry out of please help me God, please, I have to have
• 39:44
  some help. I can't do this anymore.
• 39:48
  And he will always either send a comfort, you know, my heart
• 39:53
  calms or he'll somebody will text me or something.
• 39:59
  There will be some some sign that he's heard my prayer and.
• 40:06
  And then I can always go back with the OK, I can do this.
• 40:12
  He's there. And you know, sometimes I get
• 40:14
  pretty vocal to him and I've yelled at God multiple times
• 40:20
  that this isn't fair. And, and I, and that's OK.
• 40:25
  I I mean. He allows for that.
• 40:27
  He allows for it and I, I think he wants you to yell, you know,
• 40:31
  I he wants to hear your, your pain and your sorrow and he
• 40:35
  understands that. And but then there's always that
• 40:38
  after of feeling, feeling a piece that you can't get on
• 40:47
  earth kind of thing to me. I, yeah, I like, I just, it's,
• 40:52
  it's something that you can't describe.
• 40:56
  And yet, even in the darkness, there's a It's going to be OK.
• 41:03
  Yeah. So yeah, I rely heavily on
• 41:09
  prayers and that knowledge and reaching out to him and some.
• 41:14
  Yes, that I faith for me. You know, I was raised Catholic
• 41:20
  and then just totally fell away from faith and was like loved
• 41:24
  people but was like, Oh yeah, God, yeah, thanks.
• 41:27
  And I'm grateful to try to be a good person and like I don't
• 41:30
  need to go to church though. And then couple years ago went
• 41:33
  through narcissistic abuse and then that literally brought me
• 41:36
  to my knees. Like where I, I one day I just,
• 41:39
  and I had a episode this week about how I had suicidal
• 41:42
  thoughts and, and I opened up and just was like, I remember
• 41:45
  being like, I can't, I can't bear this.
• 41:48
  Like, I don't know that I can, but that I, I, I feel like I was
• 41:55
  so broken that like, when I managed to get up from that,
• 41:59
  like was the beginning of God. Like I'm like, why did I find
• 42:03
  him in this worst moment? I'm like, wait, I don't know,
• 42:09
  but I did. And like, yeah, maybe that's the
• 42:12
  only way he could get my attention.
• 42:13
  I don't know. But and then since then, there's
• 42:16
  like something in me that I just, I, I'm, I can't describe
• 42:20
  it. I'm the, I'm like, I don't know
• 42:21
  who I am. Like I'm the, I'm everything I
• 42:24
  did, never thought I would be. I'm that girl now.
• 42:26
  I'm that girl talking about Jesus.
• 42:28
  And I'm like, what, who am I? But.
• 42:31
  Yeah, that's who I am now, but that's.
• 42:33
  That's who I am. That's yeah.
• 42:36
  And I don't ever shy away from it.
• 42:38
  I mean, that's that's it means too much to me and it's brought
• 42:44
  me too much. It's brought me too much peace.
• 42:48
  I would not say that it always brings me.
• 42:51
  I mean, like I said, we struggle all the time and we have issues
• 42:56
  every day around here. So it's not that it's made life
• 43:01
  easier at all, but it helps you get through life and.
• 43:06
  It's your companion for the, for the adversity.
• 43:11
  Like the, the, the he's in the valleys, he's at the mountains.
• 43:15
  Like it's that feeling of presence.
• 43:18
  And I think if anyone, if you're someone who's at the beginning
• 43:20
  of faith or like I'm, I'm just at the beginning again.
• 43:23
  I call myself like a baby Christian because I was Catholic
• 43:25
  and I'm like, and then my, my older cousin Christians, I'm,
• 43:28
  they're like, good job, keep doing good.
• 43:30
  I'm like, I'm like, that happened.
• 43:33
  Wow. They're like, yeah.
• 43:35
  And I'm like, wow, that's what that means.
• 43:38
  And they're like, that's God. I'm like, like, it's just like,
• 43:42
  there's so much to learn. And then the more you learn, the
• 43:43
  more things start happening where you just laugh, right?
• 43:47
  There's no way. There's no way.
• 43:49
  So it's like a beautiful adventure into God.
• 43:52
  But it doesn't mean that I don't have days where I'm like crying
• 43:56
  in my car being like, what am I doing?
• 43:58
  How? Or I read a comment on the
• 44:00
  podcast and I'm like, you can't do this.
• 44:03
  This is a mistake, you know? And then your minds start going
• 44:06
  and the OCD starts going. And.
• 44:08
  And so it's just. But then there's always this
• 44:12
  moment when I'm like, oh, wait, I'm not alone.
• 44:15
  Yeah. And then I'm like, maybe Jesus,
• 44:18
  like, is sitting next to me in the passenger.
• 44:19
  And I close my eyes and I put on like, worship music.
• 44:21
  And I'm like, I am so not alone. I'm definitely not alone.
• 44:24
  Like, I know it. I can feel it.
• 44:26
  Right, exactly. Even while like mascara is
• 44:29
  running down and like snot, you know?
• 44:32
  Yeah, you know he's there. No, I, I totally agree with you
• 44:36
  in that I had a counselor once tell me I had, I had told him
• 44:42
  that I felt guilty and this is going to sound crazy to a lot of
• 44:45
  your listeners, but there was a Sunday that I just, it could not
• 44:52
  go to to our church. And I, I felt guilty for that,
• 44:58
  that you know, what's wrong with me.
• 44:59
  But I just, I mentally could not go and I don't, we've never
• 45:06
  really bought things on Sunday. You know, we're, we try to keep
• 45:10
  the Sabbath day holy. And, and I had gone and bought a
• 45:13
  Diet Coke. I'm a huge Diet Coke person and
• 45:16
  went to the cemetery and sat at the cemetery.
• 45:19
  And part of me felt so guilty. And I know people are going to
• 45:23
  come. If they send you comments about
• 45:25
  this, just ignore them because. Trust me, I'm very good at
• 45:28
  ignoring comments. Because it sounds crazy to most
• 45:33
  people, but at the time, or you know, that's how the church
• 45:36
  shames and blah, blah, blah. But it was my own thing of, of
• 45:41
  feeling guilty for getting a Diet Coke and not going to
• 45:44
  church and sitting at the cemetery.
• 45:46
  But I just couldn't do it. And I, I was telling the
• 45:49
  counselor that who was, who was not laughing at me, but laughing
• 45:54
  that I would feel so guilty. And he and he said, Pam, so
• 46:00
  where do you think Jesus was in all of this?
• 46:03
  I'm like, well, he is probably sitting with me at the cemetery.
• 46:07
  And he's like, no, he would have gone and got you the Diet Coke
• 46:11
  and sat with you at the cemetery.
• 46:12
  And that picture in my head has changed everything because he's
• 46:19
  so right. There would have been no shame.
• 46:22
  He would have gone and got me the Diet Coke and then just sat
• 46:25
  with me and cried at the cemetery.
• 46:28
  And, and I've had multiple experiences with that where
• 46:32
  different people have pointed out my, my youngest really
• 46:36
  struggles to go to church and, and somebody said, you know, let
• 46:42
  him come however he can come. You know, it doesn't have to be
• 46:45
  perfect. And, and guess who Jesus would
• 46:48
  be sitting by first? It would be him And just that
• 46:53
  vision of it doesn't matter who we are and it doesn't matter how
• 46:58
  we act. Christ is going to love us for
• 47:02
  whoever and he was going to sit with us in our pain.
• 47:05
  He's going to sit with us in our mistakes and that vision and
• 47:11
  that thought has changed my whole like look on things for
• 47:17
  the last four or five years of where Jesus is in my life and
• 47:22
  that he is my he is my friend who's going to be sitting with
• 47:27
  me when I'm crying in the car, you know, beautiful and so and.
• 47:33
  I I just got a vision of that of like him sitting with you there
• 47:36
  with the dike. Yeah, being like, hey, it's
• 47:38
  extra cold. Yeah, exactly.
• 47:41
  And do anything. Right, I just touched it and I
• 47:43
  can make it cold or hot. What do you mean?
• 47:44
  I can pretty much do anything for you.
• 47:46
  Yeah, exactly. And that just changed my mind
• 47:50
  that that just opened up. And I don't know why that was so
• 47:54
  powerful to me. I I because it's just so simple
• 48:00
  and beautiful and it literally, I don't think I'm ever going to
• 48:03
  forget that that like Jesus is maybe I didn't know him the way
• 48:10
  that I'm knowing him now growing up.
• 48:12
  No, not that he tells his arm anything.
• 48:13
  I just didn't have an intimate relationship at.
• 48:16
  Right. And my father and my, I thought
• 48:19
  he was like this, Like, I need to be a little scared, you know?
• 48:24
  That's yes, like agree. Like that's how I grew up of
• 48:29
  like not a friend, not a friend. I mean he has he has a friend,
• 48:33
  but yet not but. Like, you know, not a warm one,
• 48:37
  but like a really strict one. But like, right, The thing I've
• 48:41
  learned through Bible study is like about his daily life and
• 48:46
  how he wept. I'm like, he cried, he came, he,
• 48:51
  he, he feel, he gets it. He's like, Yep, felt every
• 48:55
  single one of those emotions. Yeah.
• 48:57
  So I. Yeah, so it's just a different.
• 49:00
  Different way. Different way to look at who he
• 49:04
  is. And yet.
• 49:06
  So now, yeah, I'm not alone ever.
• 49:10
  And and that, that's another one that I'd love to talk with,
• 49:16
  especially teenagers about that. You know what?
• 49:19
  He's going to sit with you with the mistake.
• 49:21
  You know all you have to do is turn back to him.
• 49:24
  Yes, multiple, however many times it takes.
• 49:27
  He will. You just turn.
• 49:29
  You're never too far gone. Never, never, never, never.
• 49:32
  Like there's just nothing that can't be redeemed.
• 49:35
  And that's such a good message because so much of our shame is
• 49:38
  just like, I can't fix this. And it's like, well, he can.
• 49:41
  He can fix. He can bring you a piece that
• 49:43
  you didn't actually think was possible.
• 49:46
  Exactly. So wow, thank you.
• 49:48
  I I I love that image. I'm going to have to I just love
• 49:52
  that image. And, and we talked about, you
• 49:55
  know, you and and again, I know we're we could keep talking for
• 49:58
  hours and hours because I'm going to just I I say this every
• 50:02
  time and and you know, I'm going to put links to all the
• 50:06
  resources and your podcast and your son's program, J duo fit.
• 50:12
  They do coaching and like nutrition and spirituality.
• 50:16
  They're just amazing. And like you said, the community
• 50:21
  that you kind of wished you had, you have created now.
• 50:26
  How cool is that? That's what I yeah, it it is.
• 50:30
  And I feel very honored to have people feel, feel like they can
• 50:38
  reach out. I don't, I do not pat myself on
• 50:42
  the back at all. And like I said, I still, we
• 50:46
  have our struggles in the house, but I feel very honored that
• 50:51
  people feel like they can reach out and, and just ask me a
• 50:56
  question or, you know, a place to turn or whatever it might be.
• 51:01
  To me, that feels like I'm honoring Sam.
• 51:04
  Yes, so much, so much. And I actually, I said a prayer
• 51:09
  before and I was listening to some like worship music and just
• 51:13
  kind of getting ready. And I, I said a little prayer to
• 51:16
  Sam and I, I, I said, Hey, buddy, like, you know, I hope I
• 51:20
  can, I was like, I'm talking to your mom and love your brothers.
• 51:24
  And I hope I can, like just whatever messages need to come
• 51:28
  out. And I just, I, I think, I think
• 51:32
  he delivered, you know, or just creating a space where I've
• 51:39
  learned you, you're, you've been through so much.
• 51:43
  And I just the courage and the, the love and from your family
• 51:51
  and the authenticity is unbelievably amazing because
• 51:55
  every time you're authentic and anyone's authentic on my show,
• 51:59
  anyone who hears that the shame is maybe maybe the shameless me
• 52:05
  too. Yeah.
• 52:06
  Oh, she's not that. She's done that.
• 52:09
  Oh, OK. I guess I'm not so weird.
• 52:12
  Maybe I will get that therapy. Maybe I'll talk to that friend.
• 52:16
  You just never know, you know, So I just wanted to thank you.
• 52:21
  And I will be. I got my goal is one day to meet
• 52:27
  all of my guests in person in some way.
• 52:29
  I'm going to make it happen through a road trip or through
• 52:31
  an event because I just I welcome you to like this podcast
• 52:37
  family where we keep it real and we just like hope to spread the
• 52:41
  message of God and and be there for each other, you know?
• 52:45
  Yeah, so. Thank you.
• 52:47
  Thank you for having me on. It's you're wonderful.
• 52:52
  And honored to be on here. Seriously, Pam, I, I commend you
• 52:56
  and as a fellow mom, you know, my house is crazy and I've only
• 53:00
  got 2 and you know, so we all got to stick together as moms
• 53:06
  and get this beautiful chaos that we created.
• 53:12
  Exactly that. We we love that.
• 53:15
  We love and we as AI think as mothers now, as podcasters
• 53:20
  mothers, you know, we take those roles very seriously.
• 53:25
  And I think sometimes you need a break, you know, that's OK.
• 53:29
  So you get back on whenever you're ready, you know?
• 53:32
  There's yes, I will. But yeah, well, Pam, I'm going
• 53:37
  to let you go and thank you again.
• 53:40
  And I I know and hope and pray that this helps somebody out
• 53:44
  there. Oh, thank you.
• 53:46
  I I hope so too. Yeah.
• 53:48
  All right, my friend. Well, we will talk.
• 53:50
  Very soon. OK.
• 53:52
  Thank you.