Latest / The Splitting Atoms Podcast / Ep 13 | The Power of Forward Momentum with Mark Arnone

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Ep 13 | The Power of Forward Momentum with Mark Arnone · The Splitting Atoms Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: So they asked, you know, what do your parents do?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: He was all excited and he says, Well, you know, my dad's an engineer and he works in the nuclear power plant.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: He was shocked that he said, Dad, you know, I told people what you did at school, and they said it was terrible, it was dangerous, it wasn't what we needed.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: What happens when we refuse to let one difficult moment define everything that comes after it?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Throughout our lives and careers, we've all experienced setbacks, difficult days, and moments where things don't go according to plan.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: But what if those moments aren't the story?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: What if there's simply one chapter in a much bigger journey?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Today, Mark Arnon shares the lessons he's learned from a career built on continuing to move forward one step at a time.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Join me now as I split atoms with Mark Arnone.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Mark, to the Splitting Atoms studio.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for being here this morning.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you very much for the invitation.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm really excited to uh to be here.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I met almost a year ago.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because it I can't remember, but it was in the fall, CNA West, in Saskatoon.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And in that meeting, you had told a story to the table we were sitting with.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: A story that had happened many years ago when when your son Matthew was in school.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember you telling it, and it shocked me so much that I immediately said to you, You have to come on.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm launching a podcast and you have to come on and be a guest and share that story.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we are going to get to that story, but before we do, could you give a high-level 60-second rundown of ACON and your role within the organization?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: ACON, the leading nuclear constructor in our industry here in Canada.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm currently the vice president of our new nuclear development division.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Very exciting times in uh in our business, and uh and ACON is uh providing a leading role across uh across North America.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell There's no new nuclear without the people who are building that new nuclear.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So quite vital.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell everyone uh listening here the story that you told me about Matthew and an experience he had in the classroom when he was young?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Yeah, it was um it was a bit surprising even for me at the time.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because one of the things they do with young kids, and he was uh in grade three, um, so they asked, you know, what do your parents do?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was Matthew's time to get up and speak, and he was all excited, and he says, Well, you know, my dad's an engineer and he works in uh the nuclear power plant.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: He was shocked that the teacher said to him at that time, oh, well, you know, nuclear is dangerous, it's it's not a you know, it's a not a good thing, your father's in peril, and there were all kinds of negative things that came out.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know at the time until I got home that evening, and and Matthew came to me crying, that he said, Dad, you know, I I told people what you did at school, and they said it was terrible, it was dangerous, it wasn't what we needed, and so I was a bit upset, as you can imagine, him coming home and being that upset.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: The next day I contacted the school and I said, I'm a bit frustrated with what you've said to my son, and I'd like to come in and give another perspective.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I asked if I could go in and say, look, I'm I'm not here to sell anybody.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to talk about what I do and working in the nuclear industry, and that I think it is, you know, a good job and it's safe and so on.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the answer was, well, no, thank you.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh, okay, well, um that's not a good answer.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I decided to speak to the principal.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: The principal then said very similarly, um, you know, we we don't mean to send your kid home and crying or anything, and that's the perspective of the teacher.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, fine, but I'd like to give my perspective and give a balanced approach.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the principal uh said, no, thank you.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so being a little aggressive as I can be at times persistent, maybe persistent.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, but this is important.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: It uh it obviously mattered enough to your son that it was worthy of being persistent to try and share and educate.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: You'd think they'd be open to you coming in and educating by Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I and I and I think that was part of the surprise, because why wouldn't they want me to come in?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm offering, I'm you know so I I then tried to speak to the superintendent of uh of schools uh for for Toronto, and they got the similar answer as, you know, we we don't have the parents come in and we don't have these other perspectives and so on.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it was extremely, extremely disappointing uh that uh that they would never let me come into the school.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, they sort of banned me from going to the school so that I couldn't talk about this at all.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh it was a bit surprising and that something that's supposed to be teaching was not at all interested in in nuclear energy, the work that we were doing, how safe it was.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: It it's uh I w I was shocked, but it uh it was just one of those times.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and at that time there were a lot of incidents that were happening in the world around nuclear power, and people were developing their perspectives maybe without knowing how the technology had developed in Canada.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell What I find so shocking about that story, it's not really that there was this misconception, because that's, I think, to be expected, especially when we're looking back.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: There was this kind of these untruths or these myths or or things about nuclear.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: What shocks me is the fact that here is your son in this environment where the adult's core purpose is to educate and grow and foster curiosity.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it was such an abrupt, no, we don't want to learn anymore, we don't want to gain more perspective.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: We've said what we need to say, we've essentially diminished your role, not only in front of your son, but in front of your son and all of his classmates, and we're gonna leave it at that.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they had this opportunity to bring someone in who was interested in expanding the mindsets of these little kids.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And again, not telling them what they needed to think, but just exploring a potential different uh side to the story.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I find quite shocking about the whole thing.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Be honest, I never really recovered from that because um thankfully that the kids were only in the school for a couple of years before they moved on to middle school.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it it didn't last too long.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: But that tension between myself and the school um also made it difficult for my son and my daughter, who was uh who was there at the time as well.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um it was one of those difficult periods that you just have to deal with.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: You you learn to work around it and make sure that the kids remain happy, remain involved in the school.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I stepped back, recognizing that the school wasn't interested, and said, okay, that's fine, and and we went to our neutral corners, if you will.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell, How do you think that conversation would have gone today?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would hope, based on everything that's happening, that they would have been knocking on my door asking me to come in before making any comments to the kids, because I think that this is uh a completely different time.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: What's interesting is the technology really hasn't changed in terms of where I worked.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, there's been you know new developments in the industry, but um, you know, we're still using the same things that we used those 20 years ago.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh it'd be interesting to have that conversation today.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and in fact, I asked my son if he remembered the teacher, and he actually did, and I thought, well, I wonder if I should call today.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought, you know what, let's let's let it rest.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's funny you say that, because I didn't tell you this, but actually joining us in the studio now is going to be Matthew's fourth.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I would I'm good, Mark, but I'm not that good.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know there was a moment of um of brief terror, but then it went to a little bit of excitement in your eyes.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think, but no, I'm I'm not that good.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I genuinely would love, though, wouldn't that be so interesting on a more serious note to see what her thoughts are?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, does she think about this?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Does she, first of all, even remember it?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: This moment that that we're now talking about, you know, these these 10, 15 years later.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I would love to know has her perspective changed and has she grown in not being so committed to her current level of understanding of nuclear, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's what it sounds like.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like she was very committed and the school was committed to their current level of understanding, which is a dangerous place to be, especially for educators.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she was a young teacher and and you know the kids really loved her.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Matthew spoke about her just wonderfully.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, again, everybody has their different ideas.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that the openness that you would have expected from an educational institution that says, hey, that'd be great.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'd love to have you in.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're not asking you to, you know, convince kids or convince us, but just to give that other perspective of why this industry is successful in in Canada, why it's safe, you know, different things that you could put so people can make up their own minds, as opposed to, you know, sort of one side of the equation and and you get that perspective.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, that starts to develop people's minds in in a particular way, and and I think that's unfortunate.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: But luckily the kids were small.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um Matthew wasn't scarred by it at at all, thankfully.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and well, you know, things have changed.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: I win.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's right.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: The nuclear industry got the um I don't want to say the last laugh, but we'll say the last laugh.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: We'll say the last laugh.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: If I was a teacher and I'm not, so I don't pretend to know what that feels like or what some of the stressors are of it.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would be very exciting just to have a parent wanting to come and get involved, right?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Be a part of it and and step into the classroom and be with the kids.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: So there's even just that part of it is not the topic, but just the experience of wanting to step into the environment and get engaged with what's going on in the classroom.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I hope if I was a teacher, I would be like, well, that's great, just for that perspective of it.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So now speaking of younger days and school days and being kids, you grew up in Thunder Bay.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: So walk me through a little bit of growing up there.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I know your parents were very influential on you, as as they are for most of us, but for you, especially on your post-secondary education.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: But first, walk me through a little bit of growing up in Thunder Bay.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Well, i it was a great place to grow up.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: It uh it can be very cold in the wintertime.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: But we still went out every night to to play hockey, the local rink.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: There was there was no place, there were no indoor rinks back then.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but uh my parents um emigrated from Italy.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things that was extremely important to my parents was um education.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh neither one of them had access to education growing up, and so it was their goal for my brother and I to finish university.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And my father would come home, and you know, on those days where, as young kids, he'd say, Oh, I don't know if I really want to go to university, and he'd say, Look, you can come and dig a ditch, you can do anything you want afterwards, but first you're gonna get your university education, and then you can go do anything else that you want.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so it became a real focus for my parents to the point where they didn't take vacations, they didn't do anything because they had to make sure that their two kids were going through university.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And both of us uh were able to get through university.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that that was great.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: They then provided us, you know, that that that fundamental in terms of you know education being absolutely critical.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was it was a a really good beginning.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And your brother's decision where he went to university had a little bit of an influence on you on where you wanted to go to university.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Am I remembering that correctly?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell, Yes.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: My brother at the time was uh was attending Queen's University.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um I was on the fence as you know, those high school years deciding should I go to university, shouldn't I?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: My father had a a cabinetry business, so there was always that option.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, I'm not sure.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: So my brother invited me to to visit him uh during my March break.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um that sealed the deal.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: I got to see You just saw all the academics that they were studying on March break.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was very interesting how how much studying was going on.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Shocking, I'm sure.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely incredible.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that that settled that deal.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to go to university just to get that studying experience that I saw during that time.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it was really, really that week changed my mind 100 percent.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh that was one of the only universities that I applied to to get into engineering.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I thought, hey, this is this is the place to study.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um my brother's here, I know a little bit about the university.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: You also had a bit of a social.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't isn't that so funny?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think people sometimes I we joke that it was the academia, but I'm sure it was the um the non-academia during March break and just the culture around university.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes we glaze over the importance of that side of university of going and and the social kind of part of it, even though it's seen as, you know, just you know, partying and all those things, you really set a lot of foundations for the people side of the career to come.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: You in school, you're learning the application of knowledge, but outside of it, you're really learning about for maybe the first time away from your family, your parents, and where you grew up culture shifts and society norms and you know, these kind of social etiquette and social hardships.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's vital for that as well, you know, the highs and the lows of the social side of university.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we joke, but it's important.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I could tell just in the in the the way he was developing his friendships and they were living in a house with six people, um, and all the different things that had to happen and fending for yourself and and and a lot of things that he now had to learn.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um So it was all of those things coming together.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there were a few parties and things that I was invited to that that sort of helped me understand what might be in store for me.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: But uh but at the end of the yeah, I did.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: I did apply, um but uh but unfortunately I wasn't successful.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I did not get into Queen's University.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell wasn't meant to be.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't meant to be, but it's uh but it it it was okay.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell And if I'm remembering the story correctly, you got the rejection letter from Queens on a Tuesday, but two days later you accepted to Lakehead.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: So just because like what I love about this part of your story is um your destination didn't really end up changing.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Just kind of the roadmap that you were on to get to where you wanted to do pivoted.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I think I told you as part of my earlier story that um I was twelve years old when I decided that I wanted to be an engineer.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that was walk through that because that's a fascinating um story about the influence.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I I had a I have uh a cousin uh who worked for um Bell, I guess it's called now at the time.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: He was a technologist.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he explained to me about you know what what he did and how things were and what engineering was.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't become an engineer, but he thought that that was the ultimate goal.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh I was very young.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: He had presented to me and talked to me about it and was one of the few people that did, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because in my family, most people went in to be lawyers and and doctors and uh business people, bankers.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was the black sheep engine.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: The black sheep engineer.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and I wasn't driving a train, it was a different type of engineer, right?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was always the joke.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: But but we went in and um and he just laid it out in such a way that it it just captured my mind.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so from that age, I always wanted to be an engineer.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So with that in mind, with that focus, when when I did get that rejection letter, and like anybody, it was very disappointing.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I really had wanted to go to uh to the university uh to Queens, but we had to uh apply, which I did because I had not applied to Lakehead University.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I instantly applied to Lakehead University, and two days later I was accepted.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell Just like that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Just like that.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: See, the destination sometimes stays the same.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can't focus on how you're gonna get there.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: You just have to know you want to get there.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's and and so it was very easy transition to say, look, I'm still gonna become an engineer.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just it's not gonna be on the left, it's gonna be on the right.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so maintaining that focus of really what I wanted to do made the decision very easy, decided that uh, you know, I I have plenty of years to to live outside the house.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: This allowed me to stay at home and and go to university for four years.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and so that Thursday things changed and we adapted.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I love that because I know we're gonna talk a little bit later just about how speaking of leadership and the importance of a North Star, but very early on, I think you learned that lesson.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about you're never gonna face rejection or disappointment or frustration throughout your career.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Even early on, you you had to overcome that.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have a really strong North Star that is pulling you and it's up in the sky and you can still see it, the path can change and adapt and you can pivot.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the the course may change, but but hopefully that North Star stays consistent.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So early on, you uh you brought that lesson into action.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell Yeah.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, thank goodness that and and I I thank my cousin all the time for having helped me make that decision because without that, uh it could have been difficult.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think it would have been extremely difficult to get that rejection and then really maybe not understand where I was going to go from there.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I could have stepped back and maybe changed my mind about university, but but having that idea of what I wanted to do and what I wanted to achieve just basically said, okay, well, we're not turning left, we're turning right, and off we go.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: I've always been thinking of you and having that kind of uh reference of what you wanted to do.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've been jealous my whole life of people who have known that.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: I went through schooling and I would say even when I went to Laurier, I took what I liked because I didn't really know what I wanted to do.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: At the time before I entered into university, I was showing horses very competitively.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I grew up, I had ulcers at 16.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I showed very competitively and I was I was very hard on myself right from the get-go.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I knew I don't want to be a horse trainer.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I didn't really know, but I knew I loved history and things like that, so I took history and that's what I majored in.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I've always been a bit jealous because I'm someone who had to kind of fumble and and find her way into these different opportunities, normally because I'm a chatterbox.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I would meet someone that'd say, Have you ever thought of doing this, or would you come work for me here?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of took shape for me that way, very organically, I guess.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: But you, you just had the intention right from the get-go, this is what I want to be.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always been a little bit envious of that, of people who knew, went for it, they knew kind of somewhat of the path they had to take to get there.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like the school might have changed, but you kind of knew you had to become an engineer to be an engineer.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was just kind of finding my way as it rolled out.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: And thankfully, because I don't think nuclear would have been on my horizon if I had made the decision.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it worked out fine for me in the end, and I'm very happy to be here.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: But there's always just a tinge of envy, maybe, for people who they knew, they saw it, and the choice was made.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell It's interesting that you say that, because it it's like when you have curly hair, you want straight hair, when you have straight hair, you want curly hair.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's sort of the exact opposite.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I look at people that that have that ability to just sit back and see how things are going to develop before making their decision.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a bit envious the other way to say, hey, I wish I could do that, because when you get sort of single-minded, it it bec it can be a bit stressful in saying, okay, well, we're only going down this one path.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um it drives my wife nuts because it's, you know, I'm always on that same path, and you know, I've I have to go a certain way in my checklists and all kinds of crazy things that engineers do.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: But um but not having that flexibility is something that that I actually look back and say, geez, I wish I had that.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always you always want something a little different, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And but at in the end, it's it's uh it different ways to get to the same success.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell And we need both types of people for sure, right?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because that we balance each other in that way.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny you say about the curly hair and the straight hair, I feel called out because I have Naturally very curly hair.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I walk into the studio in the mornings that we film.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And without thinking, I left my house today, not grabbing an umbrella.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And rain, of course, is on the forecast.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: So the whole way here, I was thinking, well, what if it starts raining?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be a pretty awkward-looking podcast episode.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we're filming quite a few of them today.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it's it's going to be a pretty uh, you know, dangerous hair situation.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so funny you bring that up because that was part of my worry today, you know.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: The I've straightened it out, I've I've gone the other way, and uh was praying for no rain until I arrived.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Once I walk home, it's fine, because the cats don't care once I'm home, you know, if my hair is looking a little messy.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you go through, you achieve your goal of becoming an engineer, and that eventually led you down the road towards Hydro One.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about how you you were first introduced to nuclear, because I believe you were working in a different industry and you got a phone call from someone.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell I had I'd moved to uh to Toronto in 1986 after graduating university.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was a good year.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell That's the year I think.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that saying it, but but it was a good year.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I moved to Toronto from Thunder Bay, and I was working in a few different industries before, uh construction projects, using my engineering background, um, but a very, very close friend of mine had uh had started working at uh at Ontario Hydro.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um and he called me up and he said, uh Mark, there's um a fantastic job.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um they're looking for lots of people at Ontario Hydro.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, okay, uh Ontario Hydro sounds uh sounds really interesting.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, so I'm gonna get you an interview with um with a nuclear plant uh out in Pickering, and to which I answered, I didn't know we had nuclear plants.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you'd have to know him, but but he was you know very, very condescending in his comment about, I'm an engineer and I don't know that there are nuclear plants.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: He put you in your place a little bit.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: He did, um and and and it was warranted.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I I applied and um and I got uh an invite to uh to come for an interview.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was really interesting is because I got the interview right away, and then I was a bit nervous about nuclear.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know anything about it, but uh I did some reading, but I kept postponing and postponing until uh it was finally the last interview that they would do and said, you either come in today or you you're we're just gonna pass you up.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went in for the interview, and um I showed up and uh I went in and there were two people and I sat down and uh the interview was from two till four.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I sat in because it wasn't just about uh interview, you had to answer some questions.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: They wanted to see, you know, how you were as a as an engineer because I wasn't coming in as uh right out of university.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I had worked for for four years, because this was now uh 1990.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I sat down, we started going through.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh honestly, I thought the interview was going really well.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um but one of the gentlemen um whispers in the other gentleman's ear, and um he gets up and he walks out.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I started, okay, well, I I guess I misread this, and I started putting away my things and getting up, and and the other gentleman looks at me and he goes, What are you doing?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, I mean, I've never really had anybody walk out of an interview before, so I'm assuming it didn't go well, and I we'll just call it a day.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, No, no, no.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: He told me to hire you.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he's got a four o'clock tea off tea.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: So he's got to leave.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we got to finish the rest of the interview just so I can say that everything is done.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell As a golfer, I respect it, you know?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell And turns out that that that's I actually worked for him for for Mike and and Don, who was the other person interviewing me, he was we we've stayed friends all these many, many years later and and laugh about that story because it's just well, he had to go for his he had had a four o'clock tee-off time, so he had to leave.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: What are you gonna do?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's important.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize how important, but I did later.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you had already impressed him enough.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I did so.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you he knew he had gotten what he needed to see, you know?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell It was It was wonderful, though.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, that that started my career in nuclear.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell And then you went into your your first day at Hydro One, you show up, and I think like so many of us, you were were likely excited, a little nervous, and then you got there, and the day didn't go quite according to plan in terms of um the experience you had just on on day one.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: You obviously went on to build a great career, but but day one was a little rough, maybe.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell It it was.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I went in and um and the first thing, you know, they they did a little bit of orientation, but things were different back then.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there we were there was one computer that we were sharing for an entire pod of people.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um there were no cell phones.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: There were all kinds of things that that were different back then.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so they gave me a whole bunch of manuals and things to start reading.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um he sent me downstairs and said, sit here.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: This was uh an office just outside the uh the uh the cafeteria.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I sat down and started reading.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: A few minutes later, a gentleman comes over and and asks me, what are you doing here?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, I was told to come down here and and read these manuals.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is my first day and stuff.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, uh, get out.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked, I said, Well, I'm I'm sorry, I don't understand.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, Well, you can't be here.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Get out.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um I said, okay, I mean it's my first day, I'm not here to upset anybody, so I I grab all my stuff, and I'm standing there like this, you know, lost sheep with all these books and things.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um and then I I met some of the people that I'm still friends with today that that saved me and came up and said, Oh, that was the head of HR, if you can imagine.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um not uh a very difficult person.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Here, let me help you out.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I built those friendships with those couple of people, one in particular, that uh that we still see each other today, and um he helped me that first day, got past that.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: We found another place for me to sit, and and it just started off in success and and I had made a friend.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell Was there any point on that day or maybe when you were driving home where you thought to yourself, have I made the right decision to come here?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Did you did you question ever, like, uh you know?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: So sort of, but but not to the extent where I really thought I had done something wrong, simply because when when the individuals came up to help me, who had only been with the company a year or so, um I felt like I would be part of a group because people have your back and and they're willing to help.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so um it turned out later we found out that you know that individual was a bit difficult and he had to quickly leave the company.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that worked out.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: But but no, I think what turned it was the friendship that that was created virtually instantaneously from from that episode.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So uh No, I didn't regret it.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell It's such a funny thing how um to the people that that stepped and kind of helped you and were like, you know, come on with us, we'll take care of you.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: To them, they probably didn't really think about it as a moment.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was just why wouldn't we?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so easy for us sometimes to forget the impact that uh just us just being kind to someone or seeing someone who could use a helping hand and offering it can have on someone's career, their life, their day, their week, whatever it is.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I wonder to myself, if those now friends of yours hadn't stepped up and said, We got you, would you have driven home and thought, oh man, this isn't for me.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to work at a place like this that that does X, Y, and Z.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a little a little point in the story to remind ourselves, maybe and the listeners that you never know the influence you're having by simply showing up as a kind human being or a thoughtful or considerate human being.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I will tell you it's it's influenced because I've over the decades that have passed, I've hired many, many, many people.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the first conversation we have is we are not going to make a bad impression on that first day.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because it could have, like you said, it it really could have gone the other way if if somebody else hadn't stepped in.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and that's how many people see it.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is my first impression of working at this new company.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, I I really if that's how it is on day one, imagine how it'll be after a year or five years or ten years.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so we I personally make sure that that first day for anybody joining the organization does not go like that.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a reminder to all leaders how important it is to curate the people.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's how often have we gone somewhere or done something where one individual from a company is mean to us or maybe acts inappropriately or just does whatever that leaves a maybe a bad taste in our mouths, that organization now has a bad taste in your mouth because the person is who we associate with the company.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so vital as leaders within companies or even for myself as I'm I'm building my team to remember that this person is essentially going to come to represent and determine what people think of my company, not just in terms of the work we do and our capabilities, but in who we are and our character.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because the character of your company is built by the characters that you hire to go out into the world and represent that company.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it doesn't surprise me that they did not last at OPG.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think OPG has a high tolerance for that kind of um attitude.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone has a bad day and bad moments, and I think we have to give grace to ourselves and to others.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: But we do work in an industry where I feel like that gets um dealt with usually quite quite harshly and quite quickly.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or you just don't survive because we're such a friendly, even I know you're still friends with so many people that you've met in this industry.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: That wouldn't happen if we weren't an industry that really prioritized showing up as people first.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I do too.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of my best friends are right here from nuclear.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: So all of that to say, I'm glad you came back and continued going back.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: And over time, you found yourself involved with work uh at OPG, which Hydro One became, of course, um OPG, and uh that had lasting impact.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: You found yourself involved with projects and the way you you envisioned things that really did have this ongoing um ripple effect.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: The first one I believed involved steam generators.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: So talk to me about that a little bit and how that served as a almost a catalyst for the rest of your career.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: We had uh so very early, about uh a year into my uh my stay, um, we had uh an issue with uh with steam generators on uh on Unit 5.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um we had to come together, they they call them hit teams today or tiger teams, all kinds of different names.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember what we called them back then.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so they got us all in a room and they said, look, we we have a problem, we have some tube leaks, we have to go in and and develop some new technology, we have to go in and clean the insides of these things.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um the system, main steam system, which was the system that uh that I was responsible for.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I sat in a room that had, oh, I had to have 30 or 40 people in it.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they started asking about who wants to be involved in going after these fixes that we had to do.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was urgent, we needed to get this done so that we could get this unit back online.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I was surprised.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was just new to Ontario Hydro at the time.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was just new, and I and I sat in and said, huh, nobody's putting up their hand.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, I really don't know anything about what they're talking about.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't been there very long.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really understand, you know, chemical cleaning of steam generators and water lancing and all these different things.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I so I raised my hand and I said, Well, I'll do it.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh a few other people joined me that uh you know, and they said, okay, well, everybody else sort of left.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: They they got the this core group of people in and said, here's what we have to do.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: We have a really, really rushed timeline.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: We have to get these things done.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be a lot of work that you're gonna have to do day and night, weekends, to get the technology built.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to figure out how to get into these things and and really work through these issues.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, hey, that sounds fantastic.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to do that.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: I said, how long do you think it'll last?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, I'm I'm the the main Steam system is my system to maintain.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, oh, you know, six months.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't take longer than six months.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um five and a half years later, um, that's pretty much how long it took to uh not not for that first unit, but to get the entire program up and running and stuff, and it was um probably the most adventurous time that I've ever had in my career.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh it was fantastic.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: It is nice that you didn't uh you didn't let the fact that you didn't know what they were talking about stop you from saying, I'll do it.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'll do there's that funny quote where um I just saw it on on Instagram last night, and it's something like, you know, if you don't know what you're doing, why or or why is your bill so hard so high or when you don't know what you're doing?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the response is, well, it's harder to do the work when you don't know what you're doing.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you volunteered, and of course you did know how to do the work.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: You learned and you you dove right in.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: But isn't it there's something to be said there about having something new and focusing on the trials and tribulations and the challenges of the journey to get you there as opposed to the end result, right?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is what you found exciting about that time.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: And even here when you're talking about it, like you just seem happy talking about it.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Yeah.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was one of those situations where you had to come out of your comfort zone.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: You you you're you've been doing something for uh for a while, you understand it, and here's a problem that's been put in front of you.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And as engineers, we were taught to solve problems.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: It had nothing to do with, you know, could I open a book and read numbers and stuff like that.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was really about problem solving.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so this was the ultimate problem.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um there were people that that had designed the power plants that I was sitting with that didn't know how we were going to solve this problem.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so we all started from the same place.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And all ideas were, you know, we were looking at everything.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just exciting because now you're you're you're sitting back and you're just throwing out ideas of what things can we do to help this.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and as a young engineer, they're valuing my opinion, they're wanting me involved.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, there's no better place to be.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um and it was exciting.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: It it lasted for all those years, and I, you know, as difficult as it was at times because we failed.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: There were no, you know, there wasn't perfect uh in any given day, but uh but ultimately we were successful and the unit got back online and and we figured out how to manage all the rest of the units at uh at Pickering.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it was it was just it taught me that what I'd learned in school, you know, that I thought, uh maybe maybe it's important, maybe it isn't.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it really was the foundation for me being able to move forward in in this situation that you really don't have a clear path.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and that sort of set me up for the rest of my life.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that funny?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's it makes me think of two things.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, uh are you a puzzle person?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you enjoy doing a puzzle like a jigsaw puzzle?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell, N Not really.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: My my wife does.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: She loves that.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: I watch, but no, not really.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell I'm a puzzle person.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: I come from a long line of puzzlers.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it just makes me think of the analogy.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know many people who create a puzzle and then sit for the same amount of time that it took them to create or finish that puzzle and just stare at the finished product.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the time you finish and you go, oh great, that's awesome.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then you tear it up and you put it back in the box.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what that tells me is much like your story, it's not about the end result.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: It really is about finding the different pieces and challenging yourself and well, that one doesn't go there.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: As you said, there are mistakes that will be made and you you're trying to put the wrong piece in the wrong place.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: But when you finally get those pieces or you get a really good string of getting one or two or three or four on a really hard puzzle put together, the feeling that you get from those moments to me is worth far more than sitting back and looking at the finished product and saying, oh, well, there, that's done now and I'll I'll just cherish that forever.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's the process that we actually cherish forever.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: And the second thing that I love about it is this is you coming into this career.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an it's a theme that I'm hearing more and more as I talk to more people, especially some of the younger generation.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um the impact that you can have in this space immediately.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's this collaborative environment where, as you said, even though you were younger and new and and fresher out of school, the more senior people on the team still fully embraced what do you have to say and what are your contributions?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: And let's listen to what Mark is saying here.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love the fact that right from the get-go, maybe in a um a more acute way, you immediately felt the impact you could have.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because then, of course, you went on and had an impact that transcended just your career and really changed the way we view uh a certain job type in our industry, and that is project management.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: So what I'd like you to do is what did you notice about project managers and how they were kind of selected to lead projects when you arrived in the industry?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and how did that kind of roll out and evolve to what we see today?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: And your your influence on it.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I know it's a team influence and it's not just you alone, but what did you notice?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: See, uh, you're the one that's in the chair, so I want your perspective and how you impacted it.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm I mean, when I first started, um project management was considered something that engineers just did.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you're an engineer, therefore uh we're going to assign you to this job, which is pretty much what happened to me with the steam generator project.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're an engineer, you know structure, you know different things, and therefore you can be in charge of this project.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a very expensive project, very difficult, um, but done without structure.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so we noticed, and and there's history in the nuclear industry, and you can see it for many, many years in the failures of meeting schedules, maintaining costs, finishing what you started uh successfully.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was, it became very evident that that we were struggling to get projects done because we didn't we didn't take it for what it really is, which is a methodology of doing work.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: It has structure, it it formulates decisions, there's a process involved.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And when we first started, it wasn't considered that.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was just an afterthought.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um early in the 2000s, we recognized that that this was a mistake, that we weren't looking at other industries to see what does project management mean?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why are some successful?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they building oil platforms out in the North Atlantic?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: And are they just doing that because somebody walked by a desk and said, hey, you, you're gonna be the project manager of putting this thing in the North Atlantic?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so we needed to look outside that.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got asked to um uh to look at uh project management.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, when I stepped back a little bit, and and I was fortunate enough that um now OPG at the time sent me away to get some specific training in understanding project management.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that opened up a like a completely new avenue for me, and we built an entire structure for OPG about how to manage, how to run projects, how to train people.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we we spend a lot of time training in nuclear.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's absolutely critical.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but we didn't spend time training in project management because it was considered an afterthought.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: So now we started to put in training, we started to put in programs and procedures, and all of a sudden uh project management it came to life and and it was now a a separate part of the business that was uh was managing work and it was uh it was a good time to to help build that infrastructure.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's incredible because it has to feel good for you to know that you were part of this group who really changed the the profession as we see it in nuclear for project management and the impact because now of course we're building ahead of budget or ahead of of schedule on budget and just this progression of, as you said, maybe not always hitting our goals to now having this group of highly trained and highly capable people who their direct impact is making sure we're being accountable to those timelines, to those budgets, because you know surprise, surprise, they're really trained on doing that and it's not someone who's doing it as an afterthought, as you said.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I I love this about our industry because you look at places like OPG and their culture is built around never thinking they've finally maxed out on how good they could be there is this entire environment that's built around we showed up really great today, how do we show up better tomorrow?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: And they encourage you know individuals within the organization to always be finding those ways, whether it's just a little thought that comes into the head or seeing something done outside of the industry and how do we apply that.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I love that and it's not just OPG.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of organizations within our sector do that.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus Absolutely but I think OPG really has fostered that idea of what else is out there that can bring us up, just you know, move the chains even a little more forward.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's amazing.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course you have individuals such as yourself who step into that and and take it and run with it.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Yeah the the concept of continuous improvement which goes throughout the the nuclear organization when you're working in in a place that embraces it and and OPG embraced it from from day one, the idea that then you can apply that to your projects now all of a sudden it's not just about how well you did the last time.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's what are the things can we find to make it better, to make it cheaper, to do it faster.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: And all of those things play into the processes.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: So now you have an organization that is embracing project management put together with the nuclear culture and you have these two things come together in a fantastic way that start to rebuild how we think about executing work.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's and it's not just it can be applied to projects, it can be applied to outages, it can be applied to new build, it can be applied all over the industry.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um and we were fortunate because many of the um the contractors that we were using had learned that before because they had they had worked across different industries not just not just nuclear and so we were able to build off of their successes and understand.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: For the longest time we thought that we knew everything and so when we when we opened up a little bit and and brought in other organizations we started to see that we can learn from others.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: They can learn about nuclear we can learn about projects and conventional work and how to apply these things to the nuclear industry and and that marriage if you will of the two different sides really came together and I think that's why you're seeing the successes that we're seeing today across OPG and Bruce Power and and across the entire industry.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's fun because we talk a lot in this podcast my guests I about leadership on an individual level right as humans how do we show up as leaders but then when you also take that one step further and we think of Ontario Power Generation and Bruce Power and and um New Brunswick Power the supply chain influence that they have really makes us look at organizational leadership because they set the tone so much for the supply chain and it's it's such a massive supply chain that feeds into those organizations.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so their culture sometimes dictates the culture of suppliers like ACON and all the these others they take their lead from this organization that they serve, whether it's Bruce or or OPG or whatever it is.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's funny because OPG strives for it, the supply chain keeps up with that and it just breeds this entire culture of all of us working to get better and better and better and be looking for how we grow.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: After almost two decades then with OPG, you made the decision to pivot from public sector to private sector and you decided to start your your private uh journey with ACON.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: So walk me through that decision and that that move.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it was um it was a a relatively quick decision um I when when I had um left OPG I got um looking at what I was going to do with uh with the rest of my life and one of the things was we had um there was a a lady from from our legal group that had been on an assignment with uh with ACON and I had interviewed with a couple of companies and um I remember getting a phone call one night and she said Mark we've known each other forever and I know that that you're interested and you're talking to others but let me tell you a little bit more about ACON having been in the organization and she said the culture, the atmosphere, the way they treat people and the work, she said, I'm telling you that this is the place for you.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus Sold.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so the next morning I I actually called and said yes I'm I'm gonna accept and uh and and come and work in the in the construction industry with ACON and I have never looked back.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell And one of your first roles there and correct me if I if if I'm wrong was to develop a ACON-owned electrical company that essentially was a startup that you so even though you weren't an entrepreneur you really had to kind of go through things like an entrepreneur and you launched Braymar?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Am I remembering correctly so what was that like?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because you hadn't built something before and here you are building this organization for ACON yeah it was another one of those moments and I and I it it felt like taking on that role for for the steam generator work.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea how to build a company.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was an electrical company on top of everything else.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a mechanical engineer.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so ACON is used to acquiring organizations.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's how it's grown over the many, many years.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one of the things where because of a specialized electrical union that we have in in the power sector here in Ontario we needed a separate company.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I said hey this sounds great I'll look at that and not realizing again what's involved in setting up a company because there were no employees, there was no track record, there were no procedures or processes, we had nothing.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was fortunate enough to start and get help from all different places, both inside ACON and outside in terms of how to set something up.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so we started small as a small electrical group that continues today.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: So four years it took about four years to get the company up and running and set up to support most specifically Bruce Power and OPG but also can do work for Hydro One and and for others specifically in this sector in this industry.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a a complete learning experience and your mind has to go in a completely different place about how you set up for to make money.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean at the end of the day this isn't just about doing electrical work.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's an electrical company that has to make money and support itself and and provide value to the bigger company, to ACON nuclear.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was an incredible amount of fun and a learning experience.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the shock because I actually had to open up a book after so many years it was like I haven't really had to go and and learn new things like this in a long time.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was it was a lot of fun.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Got my brain working again and we set that company up and as I said you know that was in 2014 and 12 years later, 13 years later the company is still supporting ACON and the nuclear industry.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's great.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's incredible the amount of continued learning that they just always is hitting you.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: And as someone who obviously is is building a business and I I didn't know how to start a business, run a business, there's nothing that calls me stupid more often than my business, right?
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean that in a loving way of you wake up and your business reminds you, hey you know what you don't know anything about?
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do that today.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let's learn about that today.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you know whether it's on the finance side or the process side or the government side of you know the CRA scares the crap out of me every time the email because I am always scared I've done something wrong.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: All of these things.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: So like I said even though you were not an entrepreneur in the sense that you were starting something for yourself, you would have had to have almost that resiliency.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm sure there was a lot of days where it wasn't so fun.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was frustrating of how the heck do I figure out this or how did this problem come about and where do I even take the next step to get like move past that problem.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so again it's just kind of a reminder of don't let a a bad day ruin a great week because there can be some bad or frustrating or or you know annoying days when you're building something as well.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah absolutely and and I think you have to go in understanding that that's what's going to happen.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because if if you go in and I'm not sure where you would get you know continuous perfection but but in you know whether it's uh building a company or just going to work every day, every day is going to be a new challenge.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: And just being open to that and being flexible, understanding and and again looking a little bit beyond that one day and you look further down you say, well this this is a bit of a setback and and we did have some setbacks you you push forward and ultimately you're going for that success which is having something that's stood up, that's supporting the industry, that's able to maintain itself and and and providing services, whatever they may be.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: We kind of moved through your story.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's one lesson that keeps quietly showing its head and whether it was not getting into Queens or having a a rough first day or first moments kind of as you entered into the nuclear scene or those headache days starting Braymar or or working through just challenges that come up on the job site, you have never been someone who lets that stop your momentum.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: You've uh seemed to be someone who really understands the importance of just continuing to move and work towards what you're ultimately trying to achieve.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: How important is that as we look at you now today as a leader in leading a team and carrying that with you and and bringing that momentum to them?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's it so early on in the career you you find individuals that that you like to model yourself after and that was that was one of the things because as as we were growing and you're finding these difficult times if the leadership that you're working with comes in and shows frustration, if they are down, if they're not um you know pumping you back up and and giving you helping you to to get past that barrier, you're probably going to just back off and and and lose.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're just gonna quiet down and you just say well that's that's enough if if the people uh uh uh ahead of me can't take this, why would I?
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so that helped me in my career in how I approach these things.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: So my objective is to always show that you can come out of these things and you have to have the stories and you have to have the the ways to do it and deal with people.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time you they look to you for that leadership.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: They look to you to say hey you've been here before you've had these problems you've gotten around them we get success together and so you continue to help build people up you give them the confidence you give them something that you see that spark in every individual and you say how do we use that to get past this and um and I think it works.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have not really created anything or accomplished anything by myself.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: We've all done it with others.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so the success isn't about me the success is has my organization achieved something?
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Has the team you know been successful somewhere and all of these things that come together and that comes from working with people and everybody's different.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: Some people you have to spend a little bit more time with because they they take these defeats a little bit harder.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: Other people are more resilient and you you know you you have them step up and lead certain aspects.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's really looking at the organization and and providing that that focus, that direction that's that's what I've learned from from these approaches and and these difficult times.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because the difficult you don't learn anything from your success, in my opinion.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell It doesn't force you to grow it you learn from the failures.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus Yes.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: And how you approach the failures what you take from those how you move past those that's what's built my career that's what's built everything that I've done and so that's what I try to impart with people that I work with.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: And how important is it going back in your story to your cousin setting that North Star for you and essentially saying hey here's engineering and now it's up in your sky and that's where you want to move towards as a leader how important is it that you're aligning the team and helping them to understand the North Star and setting that point of this is where we're moving?
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell I think it's critical.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't have to be something overwhelming oh our objective is to you know build the next nuclear plant.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about that.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's about what are we going to accomplish this week?
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: What are we going to accomplish in the month, in the year?
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's setting something that's that's people can see and they can they have that ambition to succeed because if you make it too far it's it's going to be difficult.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you make it too close you haven't challenged anyone.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you you really have to look at the job, the work and bring it into pieces that that we can all get our head around and say, hey let's let's get to here.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if we get to here we're successful and then we'll build off of that and we'll go to the next place.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um it's it's fun because then you get the individuals on your team saying hey no let's push a little further and and now you know you're getting there, right?
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because now they're wanting to pull the rest of the organization along and it's it's just wonderful to see, especially as as people grow in their careers, it's probably the most rewarding thing that the of everything that I've done is watching the people that I've worked with succeed and go beyond me and and and do wonderful things.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell They become the momentum.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus Yes.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I'm hearing is it's not about pretending the bad days won't happen, but it's reminding people that you know a bad moment does not have to create a a bad career.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's you can keep building you can keep moving forward as long as you have something that you feel you're moving towards that's worth it.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely I I really like that part.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: And now if we look you have done something and tried to do something in your career that many in our industry have tried to do and like many you have failed you tried to retire lasted a day.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I I did last a day it's um even Tom Brady lasted 40 days.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes well and and and he was you know and he was the goat I I won't put myself in in anywhere near that kind of environment but um yeah it was it was one of those things where the the industry is in a place that's never been before it's incredible.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus Even when I started um back in the 1990 there were you know there were we were still talking about building and and and so on, but it was slow.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Today it's just beyond exciting it's it's in every part of the business, it's in every country and so I did retire.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: I did last a day.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus January 1, 2024.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus January 24 That's right.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so what happened was is that was actually a day off otherwise I probably would have worked that day too.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus It was like you even retired on a holiday.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus Yeah and so um it was never a question I think uh I think my wife knew it before I did that that I was going to go back to work.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I did.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell But and you touch on a point here and we'll maybe wrap our conversation with that question of what is exciting you the most?
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's why most people are not retiring.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: First of all the culture I feel we don't really want to leave but also in the context of now there's so much exciting things happening people really don't want to leave.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: So what is exciting you most as we look and I know I've kept you a little over time here so I'm I apologize for keeping you for a few minutes longer but what's exciting you the most Mark?
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell I think the the opportunity ACON asked me to come back Aaron Johnson asked me to come back and take on the role for new nuclear and looking at what's in front of us with so many new technologies, so many different places that are excited whether it's in Ontario, whether it's in Saskatchewan Alberta, New Brunswick and in Canada plus throughout the United States and Europe, there is just an electric atmosphere no pun intended there's there's a just an atmosphere of excitement that says hey we're really going to take nuclear forward.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just you know we've had starts and stops over these last few decades.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: This one is full on everybody's excited whether it's the government's talking about it, whether it's the people talking about it, the industry companies and so he asked if I would come in and start an organization that just looks at new nuclear projects.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that has got to be the most exciting thing to think back when I started, they were still building the Darlington plant.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: They were finishing the last two units and now I get to see new units being built again it's it's gonna be hard to leave it's a full circle moment.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what a world so going back to the beginning of our story this classroom setting where a teacher is so misinformed, so closed down to new information and now looking at the viewpoint in front of us of the want of knowledge, the encouragement, the curiosity, the excitement what a juxtaposition to how our story today here in the studio began with with that moment with the teacher saying that's bad, painting you almost as a bond villain, you know?
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: What an incredible turning even within you know one career the span of less than one career how quickly things have changed.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and thankfully throughout your story we have seen the importance of not letting one moment define the journey but just simply keeping the momentum going.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think our industry and those in it are doing a very good job right now of riding that momentum and fueling what's to come.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to thank you so much Mark for being here with us today and for joining me in the studio.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was absolutely my pleasure I I've never done anything like this before and it was absolutely worth it.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was exciting and I appreciate that you invited me.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: Of course it's not a bad way to spend the morning you know it's it isn't yeah it's pretty fun.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so yeah thank you so much for Splitting Atoms with me.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me I appreciate it.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us for this conversation the Splitting Atoms podcast is produced by Splitting Atoms Media, a division of the Carolyn Corporation.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: All of our conversations are made possible through the support of our founding partner the Nuclear Innovation Institute