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Nostalgia: Imposter Syndrome · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: faking it until I'm making it, Host Abraham.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm your just waiting to be discovered Host Shane.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: the things that humans and non human animals do and
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: try and understand what's going on in this crazy psychological
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: world we sort of live in and evolve in and whatnot.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: And sometimes we talk sort of politics, sometimes we talk
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: sort of broad philosophy, and sometimes we dig into the
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: vault of things that we have since made and we
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: dig it out again and we revisit it.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so today we are doing a nostalgia episode
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: on the concept of imposter syndrome. I remember wanting to
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: do this topic early on because I had felt like
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I had personal experience with this. Yeah, I feel like
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I've gotten a little bit better. I think I've been
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: able to distinguish between imposter syndrome and self doubt. And
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: we'll kind of talk about you'll hear a little bit
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: about the original episode and some updates on this stuff too. Yeah,
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: but there's been a lot of researchers come out about
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: imposter syndrome since the last time we chatted about this,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: so we wanted to kind of share what's new, what's
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: happening now if.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: This is your first time hearing a nostalgia episode. Essentially,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: what we do here is we are going to play
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: this old episode that we recorded and published five years ago,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: almost exactly five years ago at this point, and when
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: a plant in its entirety, We're going to play the
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: whole discussion we had, and then after the episode plays,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: we're going to come back and we're going to expand
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: on that discussion with the new research that we have
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: found that adds to this what we had used in
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: our original discussion to talk about this concept. So yeah,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: this original episode, it was episode one forty five, aired
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: on February twenty, twenty twenty, almost exactly five years ago,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: so pretty good look at us go and.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Like a couple of days before everything shut down, so
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: wild time's there.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, yeah, in the early days of pandemic lockdown.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Wild that that has been five years since.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: That, yeah, yeah, and how drastically it's changed everything.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, So before we dive into today's topic, i'd like
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: to say thank you for joining us. And if you
• 2:29
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• 2:38
  Speaker 1: or head over to Patreon, and I'll talk more about
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: all of those things at the end of this discussion.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: But this episode is publishing. It is March twelfth, and
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: so we must first acknowledge the very important as Tech
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: New Year. So happy as Tech New Year, everyone.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's also Girl Scouts Day,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: so if you like thin mince, celebrate them.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: And if you like Cora movies, it is National Alfred
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Hitchcock Day.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: And if you hate sea creatures, today is National baked
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: scallops Day.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I hate them in one sense, you hate them being alive,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: but you love yeah.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Of course, yeah, yeah, you want to get rid of
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: them by eating them.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: It is National Working Mom's Day.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Oh love them. It's planted a flower Day.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: In honor of working moms or you know, I guess
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: everybody can enjoy flowers. We don't have to restrict this.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: This doesn't have to be a gendered thing.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be working moms at all. It
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: could be everybody.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: It could be anybody. It is Registered Dietitians Day. That
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: seems very important.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels good. It's also World Glaucoma Day.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Now, this one may come as a surprise to you,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: so I need to brace yourself for this one. It
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: is Brain Awareness Week. You have a brain? What now
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: you're aware of that brain?
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: Wild never thought that. I think that the thing that
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: makes me think, I'm going to think about the thing
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: that makes me think.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: So meta?
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's so meta. This week is also end up
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Metriosis Awareness Week. Okay, important, yep.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Less importantly, it is National bubblegum Week.
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  Speaker 2: I'll never forget. In sixth grade, I did a science
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: fair project and I was studying whether or not there
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: was acid rain in my neighborhood and pollution in my neighborhood.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: And I thought it was such an important study. And
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I tested all these waters and I looked at all
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: these things, and then I lost to a kid who
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: did a survey on preferred bubble gum. And I'll never
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: forget it. Mister Dean, if you're out there, you're not
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: for sure, like you're for sure in the ground. But
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: if you are out there and you're listening to this,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: I'll never forgive.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: You sounds rigged.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a little bit rigged. It's National Green Week. Great,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: we'll move on.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: National Older Workers Employment Week. That sounds very important.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I like that. It's National Science and Engineering.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Week and National Sleep Awareness Week. Now you know that
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: you also sleep. You have a brain and you sleep.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Uh huh. Isn't that fun?
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: It is fun, very good, awesome. So, as we said,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: this is this is these nostalgia type episodes, and this
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: one is on imposter syndrome. And as a quick reminder,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: imposter syndrome refers to the psychological phenomenon that is characterized
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: by persistent and pervasive feelings of self doubt and adequacy
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: and the fear of being exposed as being a fraud
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  Speaker 1: despite one's own personal and professional achievements. So, even if
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: you're not a fraud, you might fear that people will
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: see you as a fraud. You might think of yourself
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: as a fraud.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, at the time of the original recording, there wasn't
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: a direct cause for the syndrome, and there still isn't,
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: and it wasn't formally diagnosable at the time, and in surprise.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: It still isn't, but it was reported a reporting experience
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: by many, many, many people, And since then we've had
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: a lot of really cool, interesting and important emerging research
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: about this particular phenomenon.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, and this is not, by any means to diminish
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: the fact that there are some people who are actually frauds,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: like RFK Junior is actually a fraud.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Wish he felt imposter syndrome a little bit more.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, because there are real frauds out there, and those
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: of us who have earned our achievements should not be
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: made to feel bad while the people who have earned
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: nothing and claiming achievements should But nevertheless, let us go
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: ahead and jump into this original episode as I said,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: that was aired five years ago. Unless there's anything else
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: you need to add to preface this before we play it, No,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: let's do it. Well, then let's go ahead and play this,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: And then when this episode is finished, as I said,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: we'll come back we'll do a discussion about the updated
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: research on imposter syndrome.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Can't wait.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Why We Do what We Do.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: I'll be your host, Abraham, and I'm Shane, and so
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: today we have much to discuss and let's just jump
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: right in with the question of shame one of your
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: credentials right now.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: So right now, I am a BCBA and I have
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: a PhD. So I've been doing this for a long.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Time, fraudulent liar. And did you experience any like self
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: doubt or I guess in reflecting upon where you were
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: at and people depending on you and that sort of thing,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: concern about your ability to meet the requirements of those
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: credentials or be able to sort of fulfill on the
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: expectations of those roles.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, I do it all the time. I still do it.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: I actually had a conversation the other day where somebody
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: had offered to pay me to come speak somewhere, and
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: even in the interaction, I was like, I'm just a
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: kid from the beach. Why do you want to hear
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: me talk?
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I can't. I can't charge you money for this.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't charge you money for this. I'm gonna
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: go and like I'm gonna wear sneakers and use profanity
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: in front of you, Like this is not going to
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: be helpful for anybody.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I very much have had this experience
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: on multiple occasions, and most recently completing my degree, have
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: experienced a good amount of like sort of anxiety and
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: fear around you know, they're gonna come take this away
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: from me, and they're going to think, you know, they're
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: going to think about this and decided to change their
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: mind because they didn't really deserve it. And just a
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: lot of those sorts of thoughts rolling through my head persistently.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: For me, it's it's somebody's gonna figure me.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Out, right, Yeah. Yeah, So if you are listening to
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: this and you have maybe experienced this before, raise your hand,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: just kidding, but that we would be able to see. No,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: But seriously, this is this is a real effect and
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of people probably are going to hear this
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: and immediately think, oh, jeez, that that has definitely been me.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: I've had that experience, And yeah, that's actually the case.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: As we'll get into a lot of people have this
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: experience of feeling sort of unworthy, I guess. And so
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about today is called imposter syndrome. And
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: to define this right up front, it's the belief that
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  Speaker 1: you're not worthy of your accomplishments and that any success
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: you have must be a results of you being a fraud.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Or sort of being able to trick people into believing
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: that you are capable of doing the thing that you're doing.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: And I do want to be clear that there are
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: frauds out there and they probably know who they are,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, but there are also these people who have
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: actually achieved success and a high level of mastery and
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: a particular skill or set of skills, like Liam Neeson,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: and that even with that actual competency, feel like they're
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: not really as good as people want or maybe treating
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: them as people are treating them to be. I guess yeah.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: And I think it's important to kind of distinguish between
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: like being humble about your skill set and kind of
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: saying like, you know, I am just as good as
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: anybody else. Are having that kind of feeling versus I'm
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: a fraud, I'm a phony, I'm gonna get figured out.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Like there is a large jump, even though they kind
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: of talk about them being in the same arena, you know, Like,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: for example, I know that what I'm good at in
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: my feel is like I'm a pretty good public speaker.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: I could do assessment pretty well, but there's a lot
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: of other stuff where I'm like, I know I can,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: but then I have these moments where it's like somebody's
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: gonna figure me out and figure out that I'm not
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: doing what I'm supposed to or something like that.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Right, and so, as I mentioned, this is probably going
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: to resonate well with a lot of people, or at
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: least this will sound familiar to a lot of people,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: because there's an estimated seventy percent of people report having
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: this experience of being competent but feeling like they're sort
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: of frauds and that they're going to be sort of
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: found out.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: In some of the groups of people, this is sided
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: from bside twenty one dot org. You'll see that they
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: talk about people with imposter syndrome could be highly successful people, managers, professors, doctors, minorities,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: grad students, pretty much anybody in a position where they
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: are looked at as a leader or somebody who is
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: looked that as an expert. And you'll see a lot
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: of those people have that experience. But other people outside
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: of that too, I mean people that are first year
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: learners or just getting into college. I mean I've met
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: high school graduates that are like, I can't believe I
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: got accepted as school. How did this happen? So it
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: does affect a lot of people.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Now, this can show up in a few different ways.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: The sort of broad categories that are described or is
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: that you if someone is having this experience of being
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: an impostor or having imposter syndrome, that you might see
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: someone look sort of like an obsessive workaholic, or you
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: might see someone go the opposite direction and do some procrastination.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: I think that there's another category of someone who might
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: combine those things a little bit, but generally is just
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: going to have a lot of anxiety and concern that
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: they doesn't necessarily show up real directly in their work,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: but nevertheless feels that way about it. And what that
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: might look like is just reluctance to do things and
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: not necessarily procrastination. Like they might do things really well
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: and do them on time, but they might just feel
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: like I deserve to be here, this isn't something I
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: should be doing. I'm just gonna I guess I'll take
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: it on like they might show up that way would
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: be my thought. But you can imagine that if someone
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: is legitimately concerned about the reality or maybe the legitimacy
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: of the credential that they have that has been placed
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: upon them or the trust that someone is placed in them,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: that the outcome of that might be to work way
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: harder than they actually need to, to like really prove
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: that they deserve it, or else to try and shy
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: away from it and just avoid putting themselves in a
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: spotlight where they're going to be found out. And so
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: it does make sense that those are sort of the
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: broad categories that they see.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: And this was a funny, kind of an interesting resource
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: that was found in our show notes was imposter syndrome
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: dot com. There's a whole group.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was surprising.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty pretty interesting. And so what they kind
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: of mentioned on there is that what it's time to
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: get things done, you end up procrastinating. But if you
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: do too well, others will demand the same or more
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: of you. So now there's this other side of it too,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: where it's like, if I do it really well, people
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: are going to keep asking me. So I want to
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: maybe avoid it so that people don't keep asking me
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: to do this thing right.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: And so one of our new primary researchers who did
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: most of the work on this article, Alan Kinsella, he
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: found on this on BuzzFeed. There was a quote where
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: someone said, quote, I have trouble charging for my work
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: because I feel like a four year old asking someone
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: to buy my macaroni art and end quote. And so
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: this seems to be someone who is an artist who's
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: thinking maybe they're even really good at being an artist,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: but they're sort of saying, I don't deserve to take
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: your money. This thing isn't good enough for someone actually
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: pay me for it. That sort of thing here is
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: an imposter to this episode. And add oh, all right,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: let's get back on track.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I will say this, It sounds fairly harmless on the surface,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: but it actually leads to some pretty like detrimental things, like,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: you know, like we don't as practitioners or as speakers
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: or as professionals. If we have this kind of mindset
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: about everything we do, then we stop valuing our time.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: And if we don't value our time, then we end
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: up giving so much of ourselves to these situations or
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: these people. You know, we don't really have the time
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: to do that, or we don't have the energy to
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: do that, and then we can burn out from it.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I think a lot of people, when
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: they are experiencing this, they're going to explain their ability
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: to achieve in terms of matters of just being lucky
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: or in the right circumstance, or that they had the
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: right people to sort of help them navigate a particular
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: opportunity and that it wasn't really them And I mean
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: for some people, again, that is going to be true.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: By going back to this imposter syndrome dot com, they
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: mentioned that there was this experience of success being dependent
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: on luck specifically, and references the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: and he described luck as determinism based on any number
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: of variables and then any other the number of variables
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: that may have contributed. So for example, if you met
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: the right person, or you were in the right place
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: at the right time, you knew the answer to a question,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: then you get this linear progres of these events that
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: were necessary to influence any particular behavior at any time.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And so it could have only been that particular way
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: based on those things that sort of cascaded and led
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: to that outcome. Right. Yeah, But that sort of an
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: experience that people have when they look at themselves as
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: being these impostors is like I just got lucky, you know,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: And I mean for some people that's kind of true.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: And I think also it's worth pointing out that a
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: lot of these are people who put in the work
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: to actually get where they were at.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: I recently did a talk at a conference and it
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: was on a subject that is just outside of my
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: scope a little bit but not quite. I had done
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: it a little bit, and I had mentioned at the
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: beginning of this is like, I'm not somebody who is
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: considered an expert in this area, but here's what worked
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: for me, and here's what this is based on what
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: I know. And I had somebody come up to me
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: after the talk and they were like, everything you said
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: was on point. Everything you said makes sense, and everything
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: that you said aligns with the theory. What you need
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: to not do talk yourself out of the space because
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: you know what you're doing, and you know what you're
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: talking about, and I've watched your work and you have
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: the data to show it. Don't talk yourself out of
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: that space. Don't discredit your work from the beginning. And
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I think that happens sometimes with people who kind of
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: suffer from this.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: That's a good point, and we'll get more into some
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: suggestions about how to manage or deal with this feeling
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: of being an an imposter. But definitely one that I
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: got from a lot of my mentors was don't apologize,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: don't show that you're unsure of yourself, because nobody else
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: is going to take it that way unless you make
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: them take it that way. So if you tell everyone
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: you're a fraud, they'll believe you, you know. Yeah, And
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: so it's just, you know, even if you don't feel confident,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: portray that confidence because that's how everyone else will receive it.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, So a little bit of background on imposter syndrome,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: so let's get into that. So it was first coined
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: by a clinical psychologists, Pauline Klantz and Susanne I'ms in
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight. So it's a fairly new concept in
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: terms of psychological perspectives. But yeah, it was originally to
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: described as the imposter phenomenon, and it was observed that
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: people with adequate external evidence of accomplishments remained convinced that
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: they don't deserve the success they have.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Makes sense, right, Yeah, So even those outputs that would
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: normally say you're successful, those don't necessarily work to produce
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: more successful behavior, and that they also don't necessarily result
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: in the feeling of being success. And so what happens
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: then is there is this there's some assumptions that one
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: might make about themselves or about others. And according to
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: muse dot com, to discussing the imposter syndrome, they say, quote,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: it reflects a belief that you are inadequate and an
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: incompetent failure despite evidence that indicates your skilled and quite
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: successful end quote. And this is another thing that we've
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: already mentioned several times, this idea of waiting that and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: expecting that you're going to be found out quote unquote
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: found out or discovered or someone's gonna sort of uncover
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: your fraudulentness. And and so this can really impact the
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: way that you sort of portray yourself in terms of
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: how confident you appear to others.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then to go further into that on imposter
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Syndrome dot com, there's a quote that says people who
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: feel like imposters hold themselves to an unrealistic and unsustainable
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: standard of competence. Falling short of the standard evokes shame.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: And I actually just had a conversation with a supervise
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: about this. There was a crisis situation and they handled
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: it and they said, they spent two weeks perseverating over
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: this situation. What could I have done better? I shouldn't
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: be in this situation, like all this stuff. And I
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: just when I was talking to them, I said, I
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: had to stop them and say, you know, and in
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: that circumstance, is that person alive? Did you keep them safe?
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: For you safe? Is that what happened? And that's what
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: matters most. You did your job, that's the part. And
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: then we had the conversation about science not having a
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: finish line and all that. But even in that moment,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: it was a one time moment that just shook this
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: supervise e's entire foundation of their confidence.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Wow, it's a bummer. Yeah, the story, I mean, it's
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: important one though, but I think that is certainly going
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: to be relevant for a lot of people. And I've
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: had that experience myself as well. So all right, Shane,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: what do we know about why people experience imposter syndrome?
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: We know very little about why. So yeah, so we
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: understand very little about why. It may occur in some
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: kind of relation to maybe like an underlying physiological condition,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: but it tends to be more like reactions to challenging
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: contingencies and like these challenging situations, and so that's what
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: happens a lot is a situation comes up and it's
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: a little bit tough, and so people have its experience.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: And when we talk about this, more focus is actually
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: given to the common symptoms of the phenomenon rather than
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: some of the more complex things that we're going to
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: talk about. And in stating that it is something that
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: most of the population seems to experience to some extent,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: kind of gives it this idea that it's a common phenomenon.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: So it's general symptoms, general things, and kind of that
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: languaging around that there is some co occurrence with social
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: anxiety disorder and we just kind of see that a
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: little bit and others that fall into that anxiety realm,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: but the symptoms are not exclusive to those populations. So
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: you have this kind of phenomenon that is occurring across symptoms,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: across populations, across people without really a good box to
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: fit in well.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: And I also want to be careful here that we
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: don't give the impression that if you are experiencing imposter
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: syndrome that you have an anxiety disorder. It would be
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: very unrealistic to say that seventy percent of people have
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: an anxiety disorder. You might experience anxiety, but the point
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: at which it becomes chronic and impactful is when it
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: becomes a disorder, and that is not what we're trying
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: to suggest here, is this is something that a lot
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: of people experience. If you are concerned about having an
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: anxiety disorder, definitely go see a mental health professional for diagnosis.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: That is obviously something that should be diagnosed so that
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: you can have resources to deal with that. But I
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: just want to deter that experiencing this effect does not
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: mean that you have any kind of anxiety disorder. You might,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: but this doesn't in and of itself diagnose that. Does
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: that make sense?
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, that makes perfect sense.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to make sure we're clear on
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: that because there might be co occurrence there, but it's
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: not a cause effect relation right now. There are some
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: people that are famous, successful people who have noted their
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: experience with imposter syndrome. So, for example, John Steinbeck, the
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: famous author of Grapes of Wrath right and.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Of Mice and Men.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he said, quote, I'm not a writer.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: I've been fooling myself and other people end quote, which
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: for one of the most prolific writers of all time
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: is kind of ironic to hear, you know.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this one made me laugh when I read
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: it was Dave Grohl. You know, if you're not familiar
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: with Dave Grohl and his music, you've ever heard any
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Nirvana song or the Foo Fighters. That's the guy on
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: top of I don't know them, Crooked Vultures and Probot
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: and he played on some nine inch Nails records and
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: he's done all this stuff. He's a really prolific musician.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: He's been all over the place.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: He has literally been all over the place Queens of
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: the Stone Age. In interviews, he's alluded to the fact
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: that he transitioned from the drummer Nirvana to the frontman
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: of the Food Fighters despite you know, not ever really
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: having that opportunity to like move into a leader role,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: and you know, kind of like Ringo Star does, right,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Ringo Starr did that from the Beatles, Like he moved
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: into a solo artist in that realm, right, And he
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: never really claimed to be a master guitar, but there's
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: actually a story where he ended up re recording all
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: the drum tracks for the second Food Fighters album because
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: even though there was a drummer that had recorded it,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: and he recorded the entire first Foo Fighters album by himself,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: so he played all the instruments on the first album.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: And you know, there's some examples that we're talking about,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: like this idea of being a soloist or a perfectionist,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: but you know that's gonna be kind of the characterizations
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: that we talk about later. But I just it makes
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: me laugh to think that Dave Grohl is somebody who
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: suffers from this because you're a drummer. So, like, what
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: are your thoughts on Dave girl as a drummer.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: I thought he was fine as a drummer. He never
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: stood out to me as being like the greatest drummer
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: in the world, but I thought he did very well.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: And I also liked him in the Food Fighters, So
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I'm mostly just impressed with him as a musician all around.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, I like Dave Grohl. I think he's seems like
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: a cool guy. Yeah, And on that point, this whole
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: thing of him, like re recording the drums, I think
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: there is definitely something that to be expected about people
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: who experience imposter syndrome and kind of want to do
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: it all themselves, and we'll talk more about that in
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: a minute, but you can get this sense that someone
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: who is capable of doing that much can see themselves
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: both as a fraud but also simultaneously as like I'm
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the only one who can do this at least with
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: my vision, and being unwilling to compromise on that vision,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: and so seeing themselves almost as lone wolf is kind
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: of a way I think about it. And to that point,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: there's a quote from John Lennon where he says, quote
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: part of me suspects I'm a loser, and part of
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: me thinks I'm God almighty end quote. And I think
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: he's being hyperbolic here, but really speaking that to the
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: point of like, at times like I feel like a fraud,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: but I also feel like I'm the only one who
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: can do this. And it's this weird dichotomy where those
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: even it's not even dichotomy really, it's these two completely
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: opposite opinions that sit juxtapose next to one another that
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: sort of represents this just general inconsistency and unease about
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: how to even think about your own work.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: So like the fact that you've got people like Dave
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Grol John Steinbeck, like John Lennon, who is was an
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: incredible songwriter. Yeah, not great human, but great songwriter.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: How dare you?
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, imagine all the people? But then you've got Meryl
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Streep and Jody Foster, who are incredible, incredible actresses. They
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: are self admitted that they are imposters. That they go
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: back and say the same types of things like ah,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't be here, I don't deserve this, And they
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: have those moments and it moves from being kind of
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: like humble and being like, thank you, I really appreciate that.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Is there anything I could do to be better? Versus
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't be here. I haven't earned this, I don't
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: deserve it. And there's a big difference between those two.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: Do you suppose Meryl Streep just cries herself to sleep
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: on a bed of her oscars?
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: I think that she puts them away because she might
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: be ashamed to have them, because she's like, I haven't
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: earned these.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: That's that's why I more realistic.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Speaking of frauds, here's an ad and we're back, all right.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: So, according to muse dot com and Imposter Syndrome dot Com,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: doctor Valeriejung categorized imposter syndrome into five subcategories, and she
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: published this book called The Secret Thoughts of Successful Women,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Why capable people suffer from the imposter syndrome and how
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: to thrive in spite of it. And the five categories
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: that she came up with are the perfectionist, the superwoman
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: or superman, the natural genius, the soloist, and the expert.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: So let's go through those one at a time. Do
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: you want to take the first one.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So the first one that she mentions is the perfectionist,
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: and some of the characteristics that she talks about are
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: setting excessively high goals, failure to accomplish some results, and
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: there's some self doubt related to that, micromanagement, difficulty delegating tasks,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: and success is rarely satisfying, like they could have always
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: done better, which I'm going to say to some of that,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: you know, I have a hard time with that. And
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: so in relation to those things, so you talk about
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: the activities or some alternatives that you can look at
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: to kind of replace some of those things. In those thoughts,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: they talk about acknowledging mistakes as part of the learning process,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: which I think is important, and pushing yourself to act
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: before you're ready, because essentially there's never gonna be a
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: good time and you're never gonna be flawless in what
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: you do. I tell people that with parenting all the time,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: you're never, never, never ready to be a parent. Nobody
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: is ever No matter how many resources you have, you're
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: just not.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: So just don't do it. Just don't do kidding, there's.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Enough people, There are plenty of people out there.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: There are also parenting classes, so there's like there's help
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: and resources and whatnot. But yeah, all right. So the
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: next one that I mentioned was the superman or superwoman subtype,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: and this is characterized by people this is the sort
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: of workaholic person. These are people who push themselves really
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: hard and push themselves harder and harder. They take on
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: excessive workloads. Again, a lot of this is around their
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: insecurity about their fitness or their ability to to produce things,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: which can end up really straining their relationships and can
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: lead to some mental health issues. They have a lot
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: of problems with downtime, Their hobbies and passions will often suffer,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: and so they often feel like they need to earn
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: their title by working harder and longer. And there's this
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: idea of this addicted to validation that comes from working,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: but not necessarily the outputs of that actual work. And
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: so the alternative she suggested was to learn to accept
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: constructive criticism seriously and not take it really personally.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Sometimes that's tough, right, Like getting feedback you're like ooh,
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: that was painful, and like you have to kind of
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: separate yourself from that and be okay, cool.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Next one.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: So the next one is natural genius. The natural genius.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: And I had a moment where I read this at
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: first and I was like, oh, yeah, that's me, which
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: is like the opposite of imposter syndrome. That's a different problem, right.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: So some of the characteristics that she notes here are
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: like competence is judged by ease of acquisition. Anything that
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: takes too long to understand or to mastering that is
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: like shameful, Like if you take too long, it's hard
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: to kind of asswallow that pill impossibly high bars. It's
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: similar to the perfectionist, where you have these high expectations,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: but the expectation is also to master something on the
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: first try, and practice is an indication that you're not
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: really getting it and you're not really there you're not
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: good enough to understand it. You're used to excelling without
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: much effort. So basically you can pick up a topic,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: you can pick up a new skill, and you can
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: do it really quickly without a lot of practice. And
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: within that you've got these ideas of self fulfilling prophecies
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: and pressures that you kind of set it on yourself
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: when you say things like, oh, I can do this,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I can learn very quickly. I'm smart. Right, you have
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: those questions like I'm a smart person, I should understand this,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: and then when you fail you don't do that. You know,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: you've got a track record of straight a's gold stars
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: praise being the smart one. And so my initial reaction
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: was that I did relate to I was like, ah, yeah,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: I'm a natural genius. But legitimately this has been my struggle.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: If I don't understand something very quickly, I beat myself
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: up over it like crazy, and so it takes me
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: a lot. It takes a lot for out of me
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: to have some of these characteristics. Now, some of the
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: alternatives that they mentioned. As you see yourself as a
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: work in progress, you kind of understand that there's always
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: something to learn, and you sometimes it does take a
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: little bit of practice in understanding and you can identify
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: some behavior within that that can improve over time, so
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: you can actually chunk up these larger things into smaller
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: behavior changes that might be helpful for learning the skill.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: That makes sense. So the next one is called the soloist,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: which is characterized, as you might imagine by the title,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: as someone who doesn't want to ask for help, and
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: they tend to try and take on everything themselves, and
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: they to the person who's the soloist asking for help
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: sort of reveals them as a phony, as a fraud.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: So this is that avoid being found out sort of thing,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: and that to achieve success they have to do it
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: by themselves. So that's a sort of lone wolf approach,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: and that sort of was described when we were talking
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: about earlier as Dave Grohl and even John Lennon sounded
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: like they kind of fit into this category. And the
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: alternative suggestion here is to actually ask for help and
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: to delegate, you know, this is to reach out to
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: other people allow them to contribute to the task that
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: you're taking on.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the last one that she mentioned is this
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: idea of the expert, and so essentially what the expert
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: is is that they measure their competence based on some
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: knowledge of what they can and can't do, but fear
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: being exposed for never knowing enough. So that's that person
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: that has to know everything and have all that information.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: So they don't apply to something if they don't qualify it,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: even for one requirement. So they'll see a job posting
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: and it'll they'll check off every box except for maybe
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: one and they'll say, nah, I'm not good enough for that, right,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: And then they're they're constantly seeking out training certifications to
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: improve their skills, to get better, and they kind of
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: what ends up happening is they always kind of move
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: the goalpost, right, I can do this, I can know
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: this stuff. I have to know all the things, but
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: there's never an end point and that can be a
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: big problem. So for this type of person or this
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: type of impost, what they should be doing is they
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: should be looking at how to accept that there's always
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: more ways to learn, there's always something new to learn,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: and that's okay, and you learn skills that you need them,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: not just for the hell of it. So that's another
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: way to look at that, Like otherwise you're just hoarding
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: behaviors and hoarding certifications and stuff, which is kind of
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: a funny thing to think about, you know. I always
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: look at like learning a new skill as adding a
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: tool to your toolbox, and so I'm just gonna get
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: tools just to have them, you know, And now you
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: have this toolbox full that you can't even move, you
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: can't even bring with you because it's too full. And
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: they might consider like looking at like a mentoring role
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: or playing an expert role for others to come up,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: because that's a really great way to learn as well.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: You are. Mentoring people is kind of learning from that
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: new group of up and comers that are coming in.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: So, Sha, which of these do you think you fall
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: into most closely?
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: I think that I would say that for me, I
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: think that the natural genius and the expert are mine
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, I say for me, it's probably the soloist. But
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I see a lot in the expert thing where I
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: definitely have found myself evaluating how much I can sort
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: of memorize as being the criteria by which I would
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: call myself competent in something, And even then there seems
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: to be no amount of what I can memorize to
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: say that I really understand it and if I can't
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: recall it at the drop of a hat, and it's
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: like I don't know anything, I'm an idiot.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I think that anytime there's like
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: new research in our field, Like I remember the first
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: time I had heard about RFT and I didn't understand
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: it right away, I was like, nope, I'm done. I'm done.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: I should just give up my certification. I'm gonna go
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: back to being an RBT. So I had that moment.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: So but I think that's a great point. Is I
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: think that anybody who is in our field, or in
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: any sort of leadership role or something where you're looked
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: to as the expert, you're gonna probably experience one of
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: these general things. I can't imagine that you're gonna probably
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: experience all of that you're but most people will experience
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: at least one of these things within their lifetime.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And this of the numbers bear out as well.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: So now we need to understand then whether or not
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: imposter syndrome is a good thing. And there is some
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: correlation that with that. Perfectionists and these people that our
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: imposters tend to be fairly successful. It's hard to say
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: necessarily that there's a cause effect relationship if they're successful
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: because they have imposter syndrome or if they have imposter
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: syndrome because they're successful. I'm inclined to believe the latter,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: which is to say that I think that being successful
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: causes people to question their role in that success, not
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: that they are afraid that they're not successful and so
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: they work really hard because I can't imagine what the
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: motivation would be if you had achieved nothing and you're like, oh,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: everyone thinks I'm successful, but I'm really a fraud, Like no,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: no one does, no one thinks they're successful nothing, So like,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know the motivation, Like that's almost delusions of
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: grandeur at that point. So it seems like it has
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: to be the other way around to me. But yeah,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: but I mean, if you really think about the major
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: problem here is that this approach can really lead to
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of burnout, and it's not really a particularly
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: desirable condition, even though it can have that appearance of
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: high productivity, because it can also be so much self
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: sabotage and it might predict achievement, but it's not necessarily
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: a characteristic of success. And as we mentioned, although seventy
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: percent of people who are successful report experiencing this, there
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: means that there are thirty percent of people who are
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: successful who don't report experiencing this, and that's a lot
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: of people.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think one thing I would probably
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: note here is that, you know, there was the one
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: category that talked about, like the expert in particular, where
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: you may not apply for something or you may not
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: seek out an opportunity for something because you don't meet
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: one requirement, and that's probably a bad part, Like one
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: of the bad parts of having imposter syndrome is that
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: you might miss opportunities that you perfectly qualify for that
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: you are probably really great at, and you may miss
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: it simply because you kind of like talked yourself out
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: of the space.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: And it could I think, very easily lead to other
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: mental health issues down the road if it really spirals
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: out of control. And it won't necessarily like just by
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: its nature, but they could result in that. So yeah,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: all right, so let's talk about there. Although I mentioned
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: that it's not a real clear reason why, there are
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: some potential circumstances that would be relatively decent explanations for
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the conditions under which this is most likely to occur
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: if you want to go to those.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: One of the things that they talk about, and this
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: is specifically from APA dot org, is this idea of
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: effects of circumstance, and so one thing that might lead
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: to having these thoughts or feelings about imposternus or how imposterum.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: I love that imposterness.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Is it imposterness or imposterdom? I don't like I like
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: imposterdom too. I don't know it either way. So there's yeah,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: so circumstances can lead to that. And so one thing
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: might be growing up in families with a big emphasis
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: on achievement. So I don't know what your family situation
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: looked like. That was not a big emphasis in my family.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: But I have met people that they come from families
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: of doctors, and they come from surgeons, and they do
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: all this stuff, and they really struggle with this idea
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: of having this high achievement. And there's also kind of
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: built into that and wrapped up under that as this
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: idea of mixed messages of where there's a lot of criticism,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of praise for stuff, and it's just
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: kind of confusing they're maybe praising the wrong things, like
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: they're praising traits and not actual achievements, or they're criticizing
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: things that aren't really in that learner's control. So there's
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that kind of goes into that
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: circum stance piece.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And I think all of these are saying
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: because even the categories here seem to say that you're rich,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: you're poor, or whatever, it doesn't matter, you're going to
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: experience this. And that's because all this has to do
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: with the circumstances in place, pushing toward the pressure to
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: achieve in some capacity or another, which is not inherently
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: a bad thing. It's just when that results in this
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: unease about it that becomes really pervasive. And I think
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: to the last point talking about these marginalized communities and
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: minority groups, that there can often be that sense of
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: responsibility to perform higher because they belong to a group
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: that's not expected to do well, and so under those circumstances,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: they're sort of always fearing like, this isn't good enough
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: because I have to achieve so much just to be
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: at the level of recognition relative to other people. That's
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: a very real circumstance for people who fit into some
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: of those more minority groups, and then they therefore seem
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: more likely to encounter that imposter syndrome. And this could
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: be some family dynamics that are going on with the
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: those people, and this could be some of the general
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: patterns of their personality and behavior that they engage in.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: And we'll talk more about personality and an upcoming episode,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: as well as how they fit inside of their workplace.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: You know, if they're a minority both in their community
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: and their work, then that can really feel to that
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: experience to really have to push harder. And let's take
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: a break from making good points and make a weak point.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Let's play an ad all right, We'll return to our
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: good points part of the conversation. This is also seen.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: This is believed to be potentially more prevalent in women specifically,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: and this is related in a way potentially to the
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: existing still to this day wage gap in pay that
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: women often experience, as well as I think there's often
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: a lack of recognition to the contributions that a lot
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: of women make to organizations in science.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think to kind of piggyback
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: on that discussion, around marginalized groups. I mean, you have
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: the people that are maybe suffering from this. A lot
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: come from these spaces where maybe they're a descendant of
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: an immigrant and they have to kind of like build
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: the dream, right, or maybe there's some values that are
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Eastern versus Western value differences. You've got people there's pressure
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: along these like majority groups where if you're part of
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: a minority group, that you're feeling pressure to compete with
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: that majority group too. And that speaks a lot to
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: kind of those family dynamics and all those cultural pressures
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: and those social pressures that go along with that. Now,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: essentially what ends up happening is that for each person
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: that experiences this, there is some constellation of variables and
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: environmental factors that contribute to that. Right, So successful people
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: come from all these different situations. They sometimes wind up
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: in beneficial situations. They meet interesting people, they attend classes,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: they go to trainings, they set goals, they follow through,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: they do all these things. But it's all this and
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: kind of going back to Malcolm Gladwell's point is that
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: there are so many unique moving parts within this that
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: it's hard to gauge, you know, what's working and what's
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: not sometimes.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Okay, So let's transition to a discussion about
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: the sort of recommendations for how to avoid having to
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: encounter this at all or how to deal with it
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: if you do encounter it. And so one here is
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: thinking about that. There's this analogy of sort of putting
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: on your oxygen mask first, the sort of when you're
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: on an airplane. That's what they always say is put
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: your oxygen mask on first before putting it on your
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: kid or whoever's dependent on you, because if you pass
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: out before you can help them, then everybody loses. And
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: so this idea of dealing with your own insecurity is
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: in a role as an advisor or mentor or a
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: therapist or whatever, so that it doesn't then affect your
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: work with your client down the road. And so some
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: recommendations put forward by beamntorship dot net as one of
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: the resources, the five lists that are to find a
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: mentor acknowledge events differently, list your strengths and accomplishments, educate yourself,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: and accept that failures create learning oper tunities for you
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: to improve. So I'll just we'll just summarize those really quick.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: So the first one here, finding a mentor just really
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: means to find someone who can further articulate what skills
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: you need to continue to advance and to grow, and
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: who are going to give you feedback, and that they
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: can also sort of give you their own story that
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: will show you that, like other people have had a
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: similar path as you.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the second point is acknowledge events differently,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: and so what that means is taking the time to
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: kind of think about, like we did that perspective taking peace,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: where you kind of take a second to look at
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: it from a different viewpoint. You know, basically what you're
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: doing is you're reframing that situation. So, hey, you know
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: what I messed up in this situation? It was really tough.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: It was really really difficult for me to get through.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Then I can go back and say, Okay, it was difficult,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Here's why it's difficult, here's what I could do instead.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: But here's also some of the cool outcomes that came
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: out of that. So instead of looking at something with
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: literally one lens, it's important to kind of take a
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: few different viewpoints about it and see if that helps
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: kind of alleviate your thoughts about that.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: And the third one on listing strengths and accomplishments. This
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: is actually of more about sort of setting goals for
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: yourself the way that it's described, and really setting manageable
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: goals and then being able to actually list the actual
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: accomplishments that you've made. And I know of a specific
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: group of people who have pioneered this idea just casually
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: with themselves about setting goals where the goals are ludicrously easy.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: So if they want to write a book, then their
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: goal is this week, I want you to sit down
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: and write three letters or write one word. Yeah, and
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: people sit down do way more than that, but then
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: they always accomplish that goal. And so like I've had
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: a goal for myself where if it's I spend ten
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: minutes a day cleaning some part of the house, it
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: always ends up being more than ten minutes and the
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: house gets a lot cleaner. But I'm also able to
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: accomplish that goal. So that's another thing that's recommended here.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, another one too is educating yourself. Basically, if you
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: feel like you're missing something, look at it as an
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: opportunity to learn and grow. I have kind of had
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: to learn to do that instead of it being like, well,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't understand it right away, So you know,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go ahead and drop it. It's been
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: I don't understand this right away. I need more training
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: in this, so I need to learn a little bit
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: more about this particular concept. And so that's a way
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: to kind of make you more confident and more confident
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: within that and kind of erase that feeling of that
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: you're not good enough or that you don't know your stuff.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: And this last one in accepting that failure creates learning opportunities.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, the name itself is pretty straightforward. It's just
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: looking at any time that you do something incorrectly, assuming
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: this wasn't like fatal, then that's an opportunity to learn
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: how to do it better next time. Right, So you're
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: less likely to make that mistake because you learn something
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: about the situation in which you made that mistake. And
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: I've actually read plenty of recommendations for people learning certain
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: skills of like do it completely wrong so that you
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: know what doing it wrong feels like, Yeah, and like
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: allow yourself to make those mistakes because then you'll learn
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: how to do it better next time. And I think
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: there's there's often this push of never failing, of never
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: contacting failure and only ever being successful. That I think
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: is really detrimental to people's success because our failures are
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: so instructive in teaching us how to do things better,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: and so seeing them in that way as an opportunity
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: to do better, I think is a really helpful way
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: of orienting to situations like that.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. So. Another example of something that might help
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: to kind of like deal with this idea of imposter
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: syndrome is this idea of learning how to accept feedback
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: and criticism that is very tough. I mean, how do
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: you deal with accepting feedback? You feel pretty good about it.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Me personally, yeah, or just asking the listener.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: I'm asking you personally.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: It has been variable. I always struggle with feedback that
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: I felt was very unnecessary. So and people tell me
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: something that I obviously know and like that to me
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: isn't helpful. It's a sort of if you ever watch
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: South Park, the head captain hindsight, come on, He's like,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: you guys should have built that a lot better, Like
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: uh huh, thanks, go on. Yeah. So you know when
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: people say if something broke and they're like, oh, you
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: should have been more careful, Like really, I didn't think
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: about that, Wow, what an insightful comment. So like that
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: kind of feedback, oh, has made me very upset because
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: I'm like, this is not helpful, and it's so unhelpful,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: it's insulting, and so it to that extent, I think
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: I've always been irritated by feedback that I think it
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: falls into that category. But feedback that corrects something that
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: I'm very definitely doing wrong or definitely could improve on,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: I always am very grateful for.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it took me a little bit to
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: get there, And kind of one of the things they
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: talk about underneath this idea of accepting criticism is like
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: withholding that emotional knee jerk reaction, right. I know, for
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: a long time, you know, I was a little bit
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: of a hothead, and so when somebody would give me feedback,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: my first thing would be like, you don't know what
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: you're talking about, and it was more like you know,
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: or it was a personal attack. And I had to
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: learn to kind of take a step back from that
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: and say, you know, once I kind of learned like
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: more of a behavioral framework, I kind of learned that like,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: if they're telling me this, then there's something too that
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: somewhere like there's something there that's gonna that's prompting them
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: to say that to me. So I've had to learn
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: to kind of withhold that emotional reaction and just understand
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: that if somebody's giving me feedback, there's probably some benefit
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: to either improve my skill, improve my relationship, improve something
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: within that right.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I actually relate to that really well, similar to what
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: you were saying, because I also had i'm speaking now,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: I think I do much better with me back then
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: I used to, because I also had that reaction of
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: if you are you are attacking me, you're contradictoring me,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: I'm angry at you, that sort of emotional thing. And
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: I definitely have learned to approach this a lot more
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: as whatever my thought is about how I'm doing on
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: this thing, your experiences that I'm doing it differently, and
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: I need to understand that and how to like what
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: the importance is of me changing this to and just
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: basically taking responsibility for it and so really seeing feedback
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: as being valid in every case, and I still acknowledge
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: when it's useless feedback, then I'll try and allow that
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: person to understand, like, let me show you why this
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: isn't helpful for me, and not be mean about it.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: I try not to be mean about it. I'm probably
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: still mean about it, but again, like telling me to
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: be careful when I broke something is just why.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well that use of eye language right, like
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: you said, like that might be helpful for somebody else,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: but this is not helpful for me. So like, here's
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: what would be helpful for me, so that if you
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: are going to give me feedback, I can use it.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, when people have specifically said, oh, I hold
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: it like this so that it never falls, or when
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: I went in here, I noticed that I tend to
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: move this way, so I had to step back so
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: that I don't bump into this thing. And those are
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: all hypothetical examples, but the point being giving specific recommendations
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: is a lot more helpful than telling me that you
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: did something wrong. I'm like, well, this, I had no idea.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: The thing shattering on the floor wasn't supposed to be there.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: So that feedback piece is good for kind of getting
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: through some of these things. I think the other thing too,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: just to kind of as you're starting to learn to
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: deal with this, is this idea of reframing and kind
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: of attending to different ways to look at a situation.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: And so when you start looking at your work and
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: your performance, you start kind of specifically. If you look
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: at your mistakes, you want to take a moment to
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: recognize that one it might have been a mistake, but
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: two maybe that's part of the process towards becoming more
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: successful and to mastering a particular behavior or skill. So
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Thomas Edison has a really famous quote that says, quote,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: I have not failed. I've only found ten thousand ways
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: that won't work. And I think that's a really great
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: way to say, like, hey, I messed up a whole lot,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: but I know those don't work anymore. So I'm gonna
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: hopefully do better with this going forward.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: That's a not imposter way of thinking about it, or
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: not amposter syndrome way of thinking about it. Yeah, absolutely,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: all right, a couple other interesting pieces before we wrap
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: up here, And this is something we've mentioned before, but
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: those experiencing this imposter syndrome will often do this self
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: sabotage thing and otherwise begin to demon straight certain patterns
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: in their behavior that interfere with them making progress, and
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: that certainly procrastinating, I think falls in that camp. And
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: this may be this fear of higher expectations being placed
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: on you if you do continue to achieve, or that
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: the tasks get more and more complex, or that if
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: you're subpar then you won't necessarily expose yourself as being
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: a fraud. So I think you can sort of see
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: the way that you frame the context of your experience
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: can affect then how you approach it and really be
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: the self sabotaging thing where you shoot yourself in the
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: foot to avoid shooting yourself in the foot.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: That is something that I struggle with is, like I
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: mentioned before, is talking yourself out of the room, like
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: you know, you're setting yourself up for failure the minute
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: that you start, just not giving yourself the chance to
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: do it right. I know, I said something really funny,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to give you a break to laugh
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: at that while this ad plays and we're back. So
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: this other interesting bit about this idea of imposter syndrome
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: is that originally this was a build as a women's issue.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: You know, according to talk Space, it was build as
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: an issue in the seventies for women, and continuing researchers
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: found that there isn't really a difference between identify sexes.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: So what they do find is that women are typically
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: more comfortable with discussing their emotional experiences, and so maybe
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: that's why this phenomenon was identified as a women's issue earlier.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: But that's kind of an interesting thing to look at,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: is this, you know, the research around specific populations.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Sort of a sampling bias. Yeah, all right, shall I
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: wrap it up?
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good place to wrap it up.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, So leaving this episode, I think the important thing
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: to remember is that people from all demographics, and all
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: walks of life, and all levels of success even will
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: report experiencing some level of this imposter syndrome to an extent,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: and that it may not fit neatly into the categories
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: that we described, but that general sense of lack of
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: deserving of the maybe recognition or even the opportunity to
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: have some level of autonomy, is that's something you don't deserve.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, there's some definite factors that have
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: to do with with the individual's learning history. You know,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: you've got social pressures, cultural, academic, family, workplace demands, those
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: different types of dynamics spanning across an entire lifespank can
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: contribute to those thoughts and feelings in those experiences in general, and.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: That there's essentially two main ways of thinking about how
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: this tends to appear. That someone who's experiencing imposter syndrome
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: that they'll either procrastinate or be sort of workaholics. And
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: obviously the workaholic is going to be the one that
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: looks more productive, but both of them are potentially going
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: to be self sabotaging, and both of them could affect
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: your general mental well being.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and just to kind of combat this, there are
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: some small adjustments that you can make, some little tweaks
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: in your daily life or work or home routines that
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: can evolve and help you, you know, kind of adapt
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: to these challenges that come up. So what you'll see
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: is maybe you acknowledge successes as they occur. Maybe you
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: acknowledge things that you would normally. I heard a podcast
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: where a prominent name in our field had talked about
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: collecting data on things they said no to, and that
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: was a cool measure of success that they were looking at.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Maybe you start setting these short term obtainable goals that
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: lead to these larger goals. I mean, that's there's a
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: lot of science behind that, and it's really super helpful.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Keep a record of those successes, keep a record of
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: those things that are invitations and whatnot, find a role model,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: and there's just a lot of small things that you
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: can introduce to kind of help combat that feeling of
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: that you shouldn't be here and that you don't deserve
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: a space at the table.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: And then just think about the fact that probably everybody
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: that you look up to professionally or otherwise has or
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: not everyone, but most people that you look up to
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: in those capacities has either experienced this or does experience
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: this regularly, a feeling inadequate or that they're frauds. So
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: you're not alone.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I one of the biggest realizations I
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: ever had is when I got to be an adult
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: and I started talking to my parents about stuff and
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: realized that they were human beings that were trying to
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: figure it all out too.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they really.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Did not have all the answers, and that was a
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: big eye opening thing for me. It's like, we're a
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: bunch of people that don't know what we're doing, that
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: are just trying to figure it out the best that
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: we can, and so we just kind of got to
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: live in that moment and be okay with that.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, all right. So that was our discussion on
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: imposter syndrome, and surprisingly a lot has happened since then.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Some of the topics when we replay them, like not
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: a lot has changed. So for example, if we were
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: to I don't know if we would do this, but
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: if we were to replay an episode that was like
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: a biography of someone who has died, like, probably not
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of new information comes out. But on these
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: areas of active research where there is ongoing investigation, we
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: actually have the great benefit of getting new research that
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: we get to talk about. So let's go ahead in
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: and dive into that.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so as of twenty twenty five, what do we
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: mean now about imposter syndrome? Since our episode came out,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: there's been a ton of research about the phenomenon itself,
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: and in the last five years there's been a huge
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: boom and an interest around imposter syndrome around multiple professionals.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: But what we have seen is that there has been
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of research around medical doctors and specifically surgeons.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: So you see this kind of like boom in the
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: population of studying imposter syndrome around medical doctors and surgeons.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: All right, I'm curious to learn more.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: Bravada and colleagues in twenty twenty found that imposter syndrome
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: most often occurs in the workplace across age ranges and
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: can impact workplace satisfaction and staff retention. Those reporting high
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: rates of imposter syndrome may also have decreased job performance
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: and are more likely to leave those employment sites. So
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: the impact of this experience is like almost viscerally, almost
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: tangibly felt by some of the people in these spaces,
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: which is really impressive. Not impressive, but I mean it's
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: important that such an experience would do, would go so
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: far as to actually drive people from their sort of
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: chosen profession.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: Right absolutely. This is kind of an interesting research line
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: that I thought was really important, is starting to look
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: at culture and imposter syndrome. So Tulshen and Bury in
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, they reported that imposter syndrome appears to
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: be quote diagnosed among women more than men, which may
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: actually be a symptom of sexist and patriarchal biases. And
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: so there's this really great quote from this article that
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: I thought i'd share, and this is what they said.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: They said, quote imposter syndrome is especially prevalent in biased,
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: toxic cultures that value individualism and overwork. We see inclusive
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: workplaces as a multi vitamin that can ensure that women
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: of color can thrive, and rather than focus on fixing
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: imposter syndrome, professionals whose identities have been marginalized and discriminated
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: against must experience a cultural shift. Writ large end quote.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: Now that's going to be really important because when we
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: start talking about some of the other articles that came out,
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: you start to see that there is a similar theme
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: in that discussion. But I think that's really important. I
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: think this discussion starts putting the onus back onto the
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: culture and not necessarily the individual to resolve their feelings
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: of inadequacy.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Right, So, it sounds like, essentially they're saying that imposter
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: syndrome is essentially an outcome of a society that devalues
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: people in certain ways, and it sort of heightens their
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: experience of feeling like they don't belong because they were
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: sort of already treated like they don't belong, and then
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: they succeed into a space where people of their background
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: are uncommon, and so they're less likely to feel welcome there, right,
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: exactly intense intense, all right, So the next one here.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: Freeman and Paisa Pisa in twenty twenty one found that
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: imposter syndrome was reported at higher rates among women in
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: the medical profession compared to their male doctor counterparts. They
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: also reported that this has impacted career progression, leadership and
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: their own mental health in these similar spaces. So it
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: sort of seems to continue to extend that same sort
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: of finding from Tushian and Bury.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: Yep, now heslop it all in twenty twenty three also
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: found that imposter's syndroime disproportionately affects women, underrepresented minorities and
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: trainings early in their career. They find similar experiences underneath
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: something called stereotype threat, So you'll see something similar there.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: Maybe we'll do an episode on stereotype threat at one
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: point in time. But they note that the way to
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: resolve these factors is a shift in workplace culture towards positive,
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: inclusive workplace environments that aims to mitigate burnout and stress.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: So basically, supportive environments to support those folks that are new,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: support those folks that are feeling less accomplished. Make sure
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: that it's a positive place, making sure people are getting
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: in that rewards and also attending to burn out and
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: stress about the job itself. Those can mitigate those imposter
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: syndrome risks.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Awesome, very hopeful to have sort of a solution oriented
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: approach to this as well. Yeah, all right, the last
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: one here is hooker. I'm gonna assume is how that's pronounced.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, here maybe.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: And twenty twenty three found that those who struggle with
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: imposter syndrome may also experience other comorbidities such as things
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: like depression and anxiety, and you know, sort of the
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: gamut of what you might expect in that realm of
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: mental health conditions of things that seem to sort of
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: hang together for many people. Yeah. So yeah, that just
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: I think further cements that, like this is this corresponds
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: with an overall sort of non nurturing environment where I
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: think mental health issues need to be taken a little
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: bit more seriously just broadly speaking.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, one hundred percent. I mean, I think this
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: shows that this is much bigger than just individual perceptions.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: There are other things happening that are influencing the real
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: experience of folks that are that are reportedly suffering from this.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, very good. So yeah, I think the
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: added research here continues to tell the story that, Man,
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: how do I say this? It feels like we have
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: been using this term a little bit loosely in a
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: way that possibly undermines the experience of people who are
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: facing a different sort of challenge but having that sort
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: of experience. And what I mean by that is like,
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: there are people who are in systems that actively oppress them,
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: and so they feel a sense of imposter syndrome because
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: they're just not really welcomed in that space to begin with.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: And the rest of us, now we might still feel
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: something that's sort of like imposter syndrome that maybe is
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: more like this idea of self doubt and feeling inadequate
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: or feeling unprepared for a particular obligation or set of
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: responsibilities that we find ourselves in that is not going
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: to be as detrimental and serious as those of us
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: who have been systematically oppressed by a culture and by
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: a set of policies that have more or less ensured
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: that that was going to be the case. Right, So
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: they're feeling of imposter syndrome is accompanied by more serious
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: considerations around other health outcomes and mental health wellbeing just
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: broadly speaking.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: Right, And so I think a big take on point
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: that I would leave with everybody on this is that
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: there is a large discussion about personal responsibility to address
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: imposter syndrome versus workplace environments. Like I think a lot
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: of times what happens is there's a discussion about it
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: is the employee's personal responsibility to resolve issues of stress, burnout,
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, And much of the
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: work around burnout focuses on individual responsibilities. But we know,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: and anybody who works in behavioral systems knows that a
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: bad system will be to good employee every single time.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: And in a nurturing, supportive environment, even those experiencing some
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: imposter syndrome are less likely to experience burnout of stress
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: if that environment is supportive and nurturing. So maybe maybe
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: the onus is on the organization in the workplace and
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: the managers and the supervisors and the leaders in those space,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: and not the individual themselves. Maybe blasphemy, I know, maybe
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: our bosses and our people who are hiring people, and
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: our people who are designing systems should consider that imposter
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: syndrome is a symptom of a bad workplace.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: And I do think, to be fair that probably many
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: bosses do think about this, have acknowledged this, and have
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: attempted to create positive workplace environments. Sure, and so I
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: don't want to have the takeaway be that all bosses
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: are bad and no employers ever think about these things.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: Definitely they do. And there are a lot out there
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: who not only don't think about these things, they actively
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: hate even being told that they could think about these things, right,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: and they're helping no one, so poo on them. Yeah, exactly,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: all right, anything else to add or anything that I
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: forgot before we transition to our credits and our recommendations.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: Nope, I think that covers it for now.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, then, as an attempt to keep people here,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: we do a really fun thing at the end of
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: our episodes, which if you're joining us for the first time,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: may it will be something new. And if you are
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: a recurring listener to the podcast, then you know what
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: I'm about to say. But we do these recommendation things.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: They're fun, they're usually unrelated to our topic at hand.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: That will be the case in our recommendations today, but
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: before we do that, we need to first play some
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: more ads and then do credits. Oh all right, so
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: we are going to recommend things. Before I do that,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: I would like to quickly give a shout out to
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: all of the people who help make this podcast big podcast.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: And first, before I even do that, I said first,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: and then another first, so second and then first, but first, yeah, first, more, first,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: even more first, pre first, if you will. If you
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: would like to support the show, one way you can
• 1:02:00
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• 1:02:03
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• 1:02:04
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• 1:02:07
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• 1:02:10
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• 1:02:14
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• 1:02:16
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• 1:02:19
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• 1:02:22
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• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: also going to read your name and a list of
• 1:02:27
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• 1:02:30
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• 1:02:33
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• 1:02:41
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• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: You're our favorites.
• 1:02:44
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• 1:02:47
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• 1:02:48
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• 1:02:51
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• 1:02:53
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• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: those things and we would never know. So that's fine,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah. Also, then thank you so much to
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: my team of people without whom I could not continue
• 1:03:33
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• 1:03:36
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• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: We love him, all right.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: So that is I think what I have to say
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: about all of our credits before we get into our recommendations.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: Recommendations, all right, I'm going to recommend a TV show
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: that I think is utterly fascinating and just a real
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: joy to watch, and that is called Grave Conversations with
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: Dave dust Maukian. Have you seen any of these yet
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: at all?
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: I've never even heard of this, Oh.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: Man, Okay, so he is. It's an interview show and
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: the premise is so close. The premise is that he
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: and his guest both lay in open caskets and he
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: interviews them. They don't look at each other. They're both
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: laying on their backs looking up at the camera. The
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: camera is above them, and and he is just asking
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: them questions, and they're just very insightful questions, like what
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: do you think of what happens to you after you die?
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: What do you wish you would do before you die?
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: It's like very like honest conversations and the interviews are phenomenal.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: So they're just getting ready to release season two. He
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: only does their very short form. There's only like three
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: episodes a season, and so the first episode is with
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: Katie Segal, the second episode is with Mike Flanagan, and
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: the third one was with Matthew Lillard from season one. Okay, yeah,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: they're getting ready to release season two, which is going
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: to include I'm let me pull us up real quick.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: The third season is going to include Kumail Nan, Johnny
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: jack Quaid from the Boys, and Laura Levera from Terrifier three.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Wow, okay, yeah, fun, it's.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: Really funny, Like it's very kind, you know, because the
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: conversations can be very difficult. It's a very kind approach
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: to it and just neat really like a little bit
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: of dry humor too. Like it's very funny, Like I've
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: really enjoyed it so and they're very short, they're not
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: they're not very long episodes. So I hope that you
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: all check it out because it is really really fun cool.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: And sorry, what platform was this on?
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: I watched it on YouTube?
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, at least probably some amount on YouTube. Grave
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: Conversations with Dave dust Melchian.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, you could listen to You can listen to the
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: episodes on podcasts as well. There's videos, but you can
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: listen to the podcast as well.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: So who wants to listen to a podcast?
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: So that's all I'm saying, gross.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: Yuck. I am recommending a thing for those of you
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: who maybe try to not eat meat or eat less
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: meat or something. There is this alternative called meat me
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: e a t I I can go to meet dot
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: com and these are these steaks that are made out
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: of mushrooms. Believe it or not, I love them. I
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: think the taste is fantastic. I'm not sure that they
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: taste like steaks necessarily, And they have a few different
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: types of cuts that they do or like types of flavors.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: So they've got these breakfast patty ones. They've got what
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: they call classic and crispy cutlets, and then a steak
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: cutlet and a carne a soda cutlet, and I think
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: they're just just different like flavoring preparations for them. What
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: they do not really taste like is mush if that's
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: a problem for you, And they certainly aren't textured like mushroom.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: They're mostly like the texture of like shredded beef maybe okay,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: but in steak form, sure, it's kinda hard to imagine.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: I think they're delicious anyway, so I'm recommending you check
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: them out. Most of the most stores that sell alternative
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: meats will probably carry it, but you can always go
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: on their website and look at their locator and see
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: if any store is near you carry them. But I've
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: really really enjoyed them, and I just every time they're
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: on sale or whatever, I definitely pick up a few
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: boxes of them. So cool.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: They're good. Yeah, I love that.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: Cool all right? If you would like to tell us
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: about your experience with imposter syndrome or something related to that,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: so you can email us directly at info wwdwwdpodcast dot
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: com or rich us on the social media platforms. I'm
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: especially over on Blue Sky, and if you would like,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: you can go make fun of Mark Zuckerberg and tag
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: us on Facebook and that would be fun for us.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: I'm okay with that.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: You can also make fun of elon Musk and post
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: it somewhere because we're not on Twitter, that's true, so
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: wherever you choose to post that, then we'll also enjoy
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: that thing.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: Usee email to us too. We're fine with that.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's totally fine as well. But I think that's
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: everything that I have to say. Is there anything that
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: I've forgotten that you'd like to add before we wrap
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: it up today?
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: No, I think that covers it for today.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: Perfect. Thank you all for listening. Thank you for recording
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: with me today, Shane. This is Abraham and this is Shane.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: We're out. See ye you've been listening to Why We
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: Do What We Do.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: going to WWD WWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: and we hope you have an awesome day.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: Zo