Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / The Human Side of AI with Tyler Moberg: Ethics, Creativity, and Classroom Impact

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The Human Side of AI with Tyler Moberg: Ethics, Creativity, and Classroom Impact · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Hello and welcome to
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the Integrate This EdTech podcast. If you're
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joining us here today and watching on YouTube,
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you can definitely see that we have another guest
0:48
with us here today. And if you're listening on
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either Apple podcast or Spotify, we welcome you
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as part of the audience also. But we have with
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us today, Tyler Moberg. Tyler is the founder
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of a company called Amplified Impact Solutions.
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But I know his background is much more than that.
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And Tyler, I'm just going to let you handle a
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little bit of an introduction of yourself if
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you if you don't mind. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
1:14
So I my background is I was a middle school science
1:17
teacher for I was in public education for 16
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years and a pretty large part of that was teaching
1:24
middle school science and never thought I would
1:26
be doing anything else. I loved it and got a
1:29
tap or an invitation to become an instructional
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coach and kind of hesitantly was like maybe and
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ended up really developing a passion for leadership
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and in being an instructional leader. And from
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there got an invitation to join a company called
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the Bob Pike Group and got to travel around the
1:50
country and consult organizations on their training
1:52
practices. And how do you deliver a good training
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where people actually learn? So kind of taking
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this educational background, but working in corporate.
2:01
And I would describe it like. like zaretta hammond
2:04
for adults kind of right like neuroscience based
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like research based stuff and yeah so that's
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that then i and then i started amplified impact
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which we can talk about in a minute but there
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you go Yeah, I mean, and that that is quite the
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journey. And I think some of us kind of come
2:20
from or start to follow a similar path. Maybe
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we don't all wind up in corporate training or
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anything like that. But, you know, the idea of
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being a classroom teacher, I think lends itself
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really well to leading in front of other groups.
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I don't know if it's just something about you.
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You learn to understand who your audience is
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and how to relate with them and build the connections
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with them, which then makes whatever it is that
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you're presenting on, whether it be to students
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or teachers or other adult learners, I think
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just that much easier, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
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Like one of my big surprises as I've done this
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work with applying that teaching background is
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like, how many organizations deliver training
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by reading PowerPoints with bullet points and
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tons of text on the slide and they're not engaging?
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And I think, yeah, having that education background
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to be like, you know, that saying, like, if you
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can teach middle school, you can teach anything.
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And I think the reason is because you get immediate
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feedback if you have a bad lesson, because it's
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not the kids that, you know, you get misbehavior,
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right? Or kids, you know, they let you know if
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you're not on. And I think adults can do that,
3:28
too, except they just might disengage and become
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some of the worst students that we have. Yes.
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OK, so you've also then founded your own organization
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here, Amplified Impact, which... I don't know
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if it was coincidental or just intentional, but
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amplified impact AI does that have anything to
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do with that was subtle. That was subtle, but
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it was intended. There was a little purpose.
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It was a little purposeful. So like, I've done
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a lot of like introspection and like, what's
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my why? And it's not about AI. My personal why
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is like is is connecting people and ideas to
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fuel growth and amplify impact. Like when I'm
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doing that, when I'm connecting people and ideas
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to help people grow so they can make an impact,
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like that could be in any setting, right? In
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any role that I'm doing and have found that,
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you know, as I, as I gain more experience and
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expertise in AI, AI can help you do that, right?
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It can help you amplify your ability to make
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an impact. And so, um, yeah, kind of, kind of
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started using AI. The way, the way it started
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is I started using AI a ton in my work in corporate
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training and thought to myself like, wow, this
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is pretty cool. Then I went down the rabbit hole,
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which maybe you've gone down, both of you have
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gone down to have like, well, wonder what else
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there is. And I just keep learning and keep learning.
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And so much so that I was like, you know, I kind
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of want to I want to do something with this.
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I want to start my own company. And so now I
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started working with educators and it's branched
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from there. But basically helping people learn
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how to leverage everyday AI. In their in their
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work in their everyday work, you know Not like
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novelty ai not like super techy stuff because
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like, you know as a teacher like i'm tech friendly
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But i'm not like a techie And uh, I think so
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many people there's a lot of misconceptions There's
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a lot of um fear for good reason about like what
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what is this? What is ai? and uh Just been able
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to apply, you know that teaching background of
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what how do you deliver a good a good training?
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So people learn and they're equipped and it helps
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helps them grow. Yeah, and I would imagine you've
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been kind of busy the last couple of weeks here,
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but as well as ramping up going to different
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districts. In fact, I think you were in a district
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that was that's part of ECMEC in the one of the
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people that was attending your your session.
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A kindergarten teacher is my son's girlfriend's
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mom. Oh, man. And I chat with her quite a bit
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and we were having dinner the other night and
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she gave a big shout out to you and said, what
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a fantastic job that you did. And how, you know,
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you talked about a lot of people that feel a
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lot of fear towards AI. She was definitely in
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that category. And so you helped to assuage some
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of those fears of her. So a shout out to her
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and from the other teachers in Princeton, which
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is, I think we're with Princeton. OK, yeah, that
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was great. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, that was a busy busy
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couple weeks. I think I had six keynotes in five
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days of like kick kickoff district kickoff So
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it was like it was it was fun and it was a it
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was intense Yeah, that's uh, it's really great
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too when you're having those interactions because
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you like you said there's a lot of teachers that
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they they're not really sure how to approach
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it and so it's uh, it's nice if you can give
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them some you know incremental things to work
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towards and and start that process because it
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can be a little bit daunting. As far as your
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passions, you mentioned you were a science teacher
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for a long time. So what was it that kind of
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sparked your passion for blending educational
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practices, neuroscience and AI tools together?
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Travel and experienced what what corporate training
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looks like with this kind of arsenal of like,
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you know, my teaching pedagogy, like designing
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meaningful learning experiences is like, just
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I'm passionate about that, right? Like, just
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how can you engage people so that after whatever
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time they're spending with you, they walk away
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and they're inspired or they're equipped to to
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do more with their current work? Like, I just
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saw that opportunity and and saw how AI could
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help play a part in that. And right now, I'm
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kind of like, you know, I don't want to be the
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AI guy, but like, I want to be the guy who helps
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people with their work. And so it just happens
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right now that AI is one of the tools that helps
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us helps do that. Yeah, so, you know, getting
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into some of that stuff about helping AI helping
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you with your work, right? You know, and I think
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part of that is if you're gonna use AI most effectively.
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It has to be something that is, and I'm stealing
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your words here, so I'm leading you into it,
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practical, approachable, and immediately valuable.
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What do you think that looks like? And maybe
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you want to tackle it from the perspective of
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a classroom teacher or in a corporate work environment,
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or even as a student sitting in a classroom too.
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How do you think that you know, how can we make
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that, you know, practical and approachable and
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valuable? Yeah. Well, it makes me think a little
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bit about like my teaching journey. Like when
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I started teaching, that was at Osseo Junior
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High. And I remember like workshop week, my first
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week of school, like walking by another teacher
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who was super experienced, probably near retirement
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walk by. And I remember seeing like, you know,
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he had all these worksheets all printed out.
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The whole year was laid out in front of him and
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And I remember being like, at least that ignorant,
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maybe that was, I don't know what my mindset
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was. I'm not, I'm not like proud of this, but
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I remember thinking, Oh, I can't wait till someday
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when I just have my whole curriculum thought
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through and planned out. And I'm going to just,
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you know, be able to focus on kids and I'm set.
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And then I started teaching and the more that
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I taught, you know, from, I taught various grades
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and positions and then the more that I learned,
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the more that I realized how much goes into.
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good teaching right like to be a good teacher
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you know there's not just being in front of kids
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right there's all the background of you know
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you know what do you want students to know and
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do and how are you gonna know if they know it
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learned it and how you're gonna respond being
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responsive and actually like that's where a lot
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of the fun is in teaching but thinking about
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okay teachers have so much on their plate and
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now you have to learn ai right now i gotta add
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another another layer to this and Tell me if
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this is true in your experience and maybe this
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is just way too obvious But AI is something that
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can help come alongside and be a part of all
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the things that we have on our plates as teachers
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to Everyone's saying yeah, you can get faster,
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right? But you could get faster on the wrong
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things and just have more worksheets or have
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more like less engaging instruction But then
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what I've experienced in the way that I really
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promote using AI is to think better And to have,
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you know, more depth, more thought through, more
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intentional delivery lessons, engagement, all
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of that. So I do think, you know, if you start
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with that great learning goal in mind, right,
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and then you have this arsenal of tools and tricks
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and, you know, that you've built this relationship
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with the audience, the group of people that you're
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working with students, then it's just a matter
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of from that menu of different options that you
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have, choosing like the right ones in the right
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time, in the right ways. Right. And then I think
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that's part of, you know, you can get that from
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experience. But, you know, it also comes from
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just keeping abreast of changes and developments
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and, and knowing the changes that are happening
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in kids' lives. And then, you know, in all of
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that brought in together, I think is what kind
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of helps, helps make that really work. Yeah.
11:34
Yeah. And like, you know, instead of like, like,
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you know, all you think of all these tasks, what
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if you didn't have to do it all? What if you
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could, what if you could help accelerate? You
11:44
know, what if you, you know, let's just say random
11:46
example, let's say you wanted to gamify a learning
11:48
experience. Well, in the past, if you wanted
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to gamify something, you'd have to kind of like
11:53
think of the game and write the rules or the
11:56
directions. And like, you know, this is maybe
11:58
a silly example, but you could apply this to
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differentiation, writing assessments, whatever.
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But like, If you can describe what you want or
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you have examples or exemplars of, here's kind
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of what I want. Now you can have AI come alongside
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and like you drive and steer it, but you can,
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you can, you can create stuff that may not have
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been possible to create just by describing it.
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And, and I just think that that's such a powerful
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way to, to think about it and, um, not using
12:28
AI. Just for AI sake right like it's not like
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oh, we're just gonna try to use AI for everything
12:32
It's like I think you were kind of talking like
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you got to actually solve a real problem. It
12:35
needs to actually Fix fix something challenging
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Yeah, I think that's a it's interesting to point
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out too because it does make the the AI that
12:45
is available to educators now and really any
12:47
professional there's there's so much opportunity
12:51
for Learning about things that you didn't previously
12:54
know because the entry point is a little bit
12:56
easier now. Because as you said, like you can
12:59
just, you can go to an AI system and describe
13:01
what it is that you have in your mind that you'd
13:03
like to try or work towards. And the AI just
13:06
comes up alongside you then to provide information
13:09
that you don't really have. And then you're then
13:11
at that point, you're kind of pairing your what,
13:14
what your kind of dream or goal is with what
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the AI can help you produce. And that's always
13:19
best because like some things that Jeremy and
13:22
I have done, I know it just with Like website
13:25
creation for example and coding know nothing
13:27
about any of those things, you know able to able
13:31
to enter those areas because of AI being available
13:35
to us and helping along that process. So that's
13:40
our over our own Examples anyway, and yeah, I
13:44
mean that's such a great example right now If
13:47
you can describe it and envision it you don't
13:49
have to have the coding or tech expertise to
13:52
actually make it happen And that's a way different
13:55
way of thinking about pretty much anything you're
13:58
doing. You know, I think along with what David
14:00
is saying, too, you know, the ease of the entry
14:02
point. But it also is, I think, pretty easy for
14:05
teachers to see how it can be applied in their
14:08
classroom. Like you just kind of going back to
14:10
your gamification example. That really asking
14:14
AI to help you create all of the different variables
14:17
and steps that would be involved in gamifying
14:20
a lesson. And it's not that you couldn't get
14:23
to that point, and you probably could. but the
14:27
speed at which it can get you to where you were
14:29
already going to end up, and maybe even throw
14:33
in some things you never would have thought of,
14:35
right? And now the teacher can actually visualize
14:38
it because AI helped them create it, that they
14:41
can now turn around and find the practical way
14:43
to actually use it, integrate it into their classrooms,
14:47
and maybe find a new way to engage an audience
14:50
of students that they weren't connecting with
14:52
previously. Yeah, I think that's well said. It's
14:58
like you can hit the ground at 50 miles an hour
15:00
or 30 miles or whatever. It's not all the way
15:03
there, but it doesn't take up so much energy,
15:08
your limited energy and space and you can still
15:10
come out with something. I like how you said,
15:12
it helps you think of things you might not have
15:13
even thought of. That's one of my favorite parts
15:16
is like, oh, I never thought about that angle
15:18
and then now it's higher quality. Yeah, I want
15:23
to ask a follow -up question too like because
15:25
we you've you've worked with a lot of different
15:27
groups and Because I know Jeremy and I got to
15:30
sit in on one of your keynotes what at the Mingai
15:34
I saw me and But you've worked with a lot of
15:37
school districts to With with different teachers
15:40
at varying levels. So your elementary teachers
15:42
high school, etc, right? What has been some of
15:48
the differences between your work with the professional
15:52
settings where you're working with more tech
15:56
integrationists or tech coordinators, directors,
15:59
admin? Have you seen any distinctions there between
16:03
kind of your uses for things with AI versus how
16:08
teachers are approaching it when they're talking
16:09
with you? That's a great question. Yeah, I mean,
16:14
I think about the range of types of and I started
16:17
with educators and then I started working with
16:19
ed leaders but it's branched into engineers and
16:23
marketers and sales and HR and every single group
16:27
I never would have thought like I'm not like
16:29
um earlier today I was on a social media and
16:32
AI podcast but I'm not really good at social
16:34
media to be honest but like the idea of how do
16:37
you think differently about your work is doesn't
16:41
matter your role and I think um And maybe we
16:45
can talk about this in a little while, but like
16:47
having a new set of mindsets on how you thought
16:51
partner with AI. It, yeah, I mean, I don't, it
16:58
just, you just think differently about what you're
17:01
capable of doing. And yeah, differences, you
17:05
pointed out there's such a wide range from. people
17:09
who have never opened up a chat thread to people
17:12
who are really leading the way in their in their
17:14
team and Trying it is a big challenge to design
17:18
something where you're hitting people at at both
17:21
levels and Not that every one of mine have been
17:26
perfect, but I will say like I think so the feedback
17:30
that I've that I've gotten has been like wow
17:32
you hit me here and you know if you were just
17:34
learning and I don't know I think the way that
17:38
you design that space of like honoring the experience
17:41
that is there and not just saying I know all
17:44
of this because you if you claim to be an expert
17:46
like you know everything about AI I think that
17:49
even communicating that like you can't you just
17:53
there's no way right it's just constantly changing
17:55
and if you if you treat it like a collaborative
17:58
space where yes I have some learning objectives
18:02
and some goals and some content that I want to
18:05
communicate but what if we're all alongside kind
18:07
of in this together applying it to real work
18:09
and then you getting some feedback on like what
18:15
how it's going and actually getting kind of rewarded
18:17
because you're like oh this this actually felt
18:19
like it helped me with my with what I have to
18:21
do anyways so I don't know And David and I have
18:27
talked before. It's like, yeah, we don't expect
18:30
to be experts. And I don't think most people
18:33
are going to be experts in AI, especially as
18:36
they're being introduced to it. But they have
18:38
the ability to build capacity, right? They can
18:41
add to wherever they're at and use those AI tools
18:46
to enhance their workflow, their workload, whatever
18:50
it is that they're trying to produce. Yeah. Yeah,
18:55
absolutely. Can I can I share with you the top
18:57
my favorite general ways that I use it and I'm
18:59
actually curious what you would say for you sure
19:01
So for number one for me more than any other
19:06
use case is organizing my thinking and my thoughts
19:10
on whatever it is that I'm doing whether it be
19:13
a training project challenge is like think tanking
19:20
with AI by laying it all out there and Using
19:24
the voice mode, specifically the dictate button,
19:26
which is a highly recommended tip. Are you guys
19:29
using the dictate, I would imagine? Do you voice
19:32
your prompts mostly? Need to use it more. Yeah,
19:37
I'm getting to where I'm almost 50 -50. If I'm
19:41
in front of my computer, and I'm probably more
19:44
typing because I've got the keyboard right there,
19:46
but if I'm on my phone for sure, it's the dictate.
19:50
Yeah, I mean and it depends on if you're alone
19:52
or not. Yeah, but But that's my number one way
19:56
that I interact with AI and I will so this organizing
19:59
my thinking I will kind of just lay it out there,
20:01
right? Yes There's some prompting strategies
20:03
of kind of just like what you're gonna but it's
20:05
really just good communication, right? Here's
20:07
what I'm trying to do. Here's what I got going
20:08
on Help me organize these thoughts, you know,
20:10
maybe dig deeper and ask me questions I ask AI
20:13
to interview me so that it can learn more and
20:16
help me organize what I'm doing and then from
20:20
there, now that single chat thread has all the
20:23
context from whatever it is that I'm trying to
20:26
do. And then from there, then I can springboard
20:28
into like getting more real, whatever that next
20:31
step is in that project. But like, what might
20:34
be swirling, unformed, unclear, I can't quite
20:37
put it to words. There's like a deepening for
20:40
me of understanding. Because when you put thoughts
20:43
to words, like that's actually part of the learning
20:45
process for me. But in that process, I get some
20:50
structure to it, which then helps me with whatever
20:52
I have next. That's maybe a long answer to my
20:56
top use case, but it's a daily. Yeah. I would
21:02
say my top use is for asking it for helping me
21:11
to put together recipes or to create some new
21:14
dish to make at home. you know and I know that's
21:17
with the product but that but also is that process
21:19
because I'll go in and say here are the things
21:22
that I have you know and and just like you I
21:24
I'm probably at that point doing it on my phone
21:27
and and I'm telling it hey I got this this that
21:30
and I might have some leftover of this you know
21:32
what can we put together and oh yeah by the way
21:34
you know we had Mexican last night and I want
21:36
it to be more Italian tonight you know Like it'll
21:40
organize all of those different things in together
21:42
to tell me what to make. And I really, it's that
21:47
assistant part of it. I'm using it to, to help
21:50
me organize and to structure the way that I'm
21:52
thinking. And then, and then I get to create
21:55
something, which is the part that I enjoy. That
22:00
was my my first experience with chat GPT and
22:03
is super memorable of doing something like that
22:06
with the photo thing where you put the photo
22:07
in there. Here's my fridge. Here's my pantry
22:09
based on what I have in here. What should I cook
22:11
for dinner tonight? You know, using only those
22:13
that was like my epiphany like super vivid memory
22:16
that was a springboard for me to ask if it can
22:21
do that. What else can it do so? Right, yeah.
22:26
Yeah, for me, I think it's more like the. I just
22:30
feel like I always do a lot of testing. I'm just,
22:32
cause I, you know, with training educators, I
22:34
feel like, I feel like if I'm going to go to
22:37
a training and I know they're going to want to
22:39
know like the best ways for lesson planning and
22:43
all the different things that they do throughout
22:44
their day. So I'm, I'm typically always checking
22:47
out like Gemini or ChatGPT and testing various
22:51
interactions with it. I'm trying new things out
22:54
and just seeing what you can get especially when
22:57
the updates are so frequent like you know new
23:00
updates coming out and so it's like okay now
23:02
now what you can you do you know um in all these
23:06
different areas which creation less and stuff
23:08
yeah so i feel like that's where i'm always kind
23:11
of operating yeah yeah i can relate to that just
23:15
like all right what are these new what are the
23:18
what's the new the new tool or the new the new
23:20
button like nano banana you have any thoughts
23:23
on nano banana Well, that's funny because we
23:26
just recorded yesterday an episode where we were
23:30
kind of entering into the Nano Banana domain
23:32
and creating some images of David and I on a
23:37
boat down the Amazon River wearing raincoats
23:40
with snakes dangling from the trees and piranhas
23:43
in the water and everything. It's actually going
23:46
to be the thumbnail for our Gemini videos and
23:48
probably by the time that this one airs, those
23:50
will have been already released. You have to
23:54
check that out. Yeah, awesome. And so I kind
24:00
of want to talk a little bit here about, you
24:02
know, we we've mentioned a lot of tools and you've
24:04
talked about the different uses that teachers
24:05
can can apply. And one of the things that often
24:09
comes up and is kind of a staple of introductory
24:13
material to new school districts or whoever happens
24:18
to be using AI, but particularly when it comes
24:20
to schools. is the whole conversation around
24:23
ethical AI use and privacy, especially like here
24:26
in Minnesota, right, we have the data privacy
24:28
law that was passed. And so we have to constantly
24:31
be vetting tools and making sure that, you know,
24:34
how they're being used, if they're safe for staff
24:36
and students. What is it that you're finding
24:40
when you talk to folks like what what concerns
24:44
are coming up there? Like, what are you seeing
24:48
that there may be? overwhelmed about or worried
24:51
about when it comes to that? How do you address
24:54
those those concerns that come up? Yeah, I mean,
24:58
that's obviously one of the number one questions,
25:01
right? We want to use AI responsibly and we want
25:04
to protect our student data, our family data,
25:06
our colleagues data. And knowing where that data
25:09
goes is sometimes like, you know, you don't always
25:11
know even you know, I don't always trust if it
25:13
says, hey, we're not going to let's say um in
25:16
chat gpt if i if i uncheck that i'm using ai
25:18
to train the model maybe i don't know is it hopefully
25:23
it's not right uh or like in google gemini and
25:27
tell me if this is what you've heard as well
25:28
but again what i've looked at is like google
25:31
gemini has declared or shared that they're going
25:35
to handle what you do in your google gemini chats
25:37
the same way that is handled in what you do in
25:40
your google drive right so it's under that same
25:42
umbrella of of protection by google and you know
25:46
let's just even say legally it fits and checks
25:49
the boxes um i know a lot of districts that are
25:53
saying hey even if even if it says this is how
25:57
we're going to handle the data we're going to
25:59
practice caution and when in doubt maybe we should
26:03
leave it out like the let and if you think about
26:06
it like the less places that data is the less
26:11
likely it is to have or become a problem and
26:15
so an example of that might be you know if you're
26:18
uploading a doc or student work or really anything
26:22
if you just take that extra step yeah it is extra
26:26
like deleting last names or coming up with a
26:29
way to anonymize it maybe you have a file and
26:32
you do a save as and you delete some stuff or
26:35
come up with a system to recall it you can still
26:40
get this valuable information or interact with
26:43
it in a meaningful way with AI and you're just
26:47
having that extra layer of safeguard to say hey
26:50
that data is not out there anywhere now and I
26:54
do think that there are misconceptions about
26:57
where that data goes and how it gets used. From
27:03
the way that I understand how it works is when
27:05
you put a prompt into chat GPT. You know, it
27:10
goes from your account to OpenAI's computer super
27:14
center that has all the microchips and the artificial
27:16
neural network. That prompt moves through it.
27:20
It's not storing the data, the prompt, the information
27:25
that you upload. It's moving through it and it
27:29
might be doing some adjusting and learning from
27:32
patterns. It might learn from your information,
27:35
but it's not storing it like you could just call
27:38
it up and say, go to the supercenter and find
27:40
your information in there. So that's a misconception.
27:46
If you uncheck that it's going to learn, the
27:48
model is going to learn from it, then apparently
27:50
it's not supposed to learn, you know, adjust
27:52
its dials and learn. However, an alternate risk
27:57
is, you know, what if somebody were to hack chat
28:01
GPT and get into my account and see all my chat
28:03
threads and get information that way. That's
28:08
another possibility. Low, and I'm sure we're
28:12
all fine, but it all depends on your level of
28:15
risk tolerance. What are your thoughts on that?
28:19
Have you heard similar things? Very similar things,
28:23
I think, especially with Google and Gemini is
28:26
that yeah I've heard it is coming underneath
28:28
their umbrella protections kind of that they
28:31
in safeguards in terms of services and privacy
28:34
policies that they have for their other workspace
28:36
tools. You know which I think then kind of would
28:41
allow some districts to say hey okay I feel much
28:44
more safe knowing that those safeguards are in
28:49
place of having students as young as 13 interacting
28:53
with their tools to you know, but I but I think
28:57
part of it though To has to be like you said
29:01
when in doubt leave it out but that I think has
29:03
to come from the training and giving students
29:06
the practice with AI literacy skills and even
29:09
digital literacy skills and digital citizenship
29:12
practice so that they know you know, hey, I'm
29:16
not going to put this information out there,
29:18
even if I think and trust the source, it's just
29:21
too valuable to me that it's under the threat
29:23
that, you know, potentially could it be someone
29:26
that hacks into open AIs, you know, server space
29:29
and databases and, you know, gleans all this
29:33
information about us. But, you know, and I completely
29:38
agree with how you framed it though. Yeah. Yeah,
29:44
and then and then the other question with ethics
29:47
that I'm one of Think tank with you on this is
29:51
like at what point do you need to give AI credit?
29:56
for the work right like it's so gray and You
30:02
know, I guess I'll share like my thought is if
30:05
I am contributing a ton of my thoughts and ideas
30:08
and they're getting formed or shaped or iterated
30:10
or I got a seed here, but then I expanded. Do
30:16
I need to say that, hey, generative AI helped
30:18
me with whatever I made? Do I need to say the
30:21
internet, I use the internet to look something
30:22
up? You don't. But at which point do you say,
30:26
hey, AI helped me here? So that's another ethics
30:28
question that I get. What would you say? Did
30:32
AI help me fill in some of the missing pieces,
30:35
the parts that I wasn't thinking of? thought
30:40
of these 90 % of things AI thought of 10 % that
30:43
I could use. And not that I'm taking, you know,
30:46
it might tell me, hey, this is how you work this
30:48
10 % in. But I'd be just like, no, just you notifying
30:51
me that I need to include that other 10%. And
30:54
I go in and write about it. Then is that using
30:56
AI? I mean, yeah, but like, what's the protocol?
31:00
What's the what's the right way credit it? You
31:03
know? Yeah, it's really interesting because it's
31:07
a it's a tough thing to measure because I think
31:08
you either like you're right away they're going
31:11
to go towards one side of the spectrum where
31:14
you spent a ton of time on it and use AI to develop
31:17
bits and pieces or you might it might be more
31:20
that situation where like oh the student used
31:22
this to write their entire paper with no thought
31:24
of their own those are like the two you know
31:27
extremes but then I think the measuring that
31:29
becomes really difficult when you have, you know,
31:33
it's more in the middle where you have pieces
31:35
that you worked on. Maybe something was completely
31:38
developed by AI, but you took that and you ran
31:40
with it over here and some other application.
31:43
And so it gets really hazy pretty quickly, I
31:46
think, in my opinion. Yep. Yeah, that's a good
31:49
the parallel or the draw from someone who copied
31:53
and pasted in basically gave a didn't do much.
31:56
Here's a prompt. Here's my product. Here's my
31:58
paper. Here's my X versus the other end of the
32:01
continuum and anywhere along the lines. But I
32:04
think we would all agree, whoever if you do the
32:06
copy and paste, there's no one's carrying the
32:08
cognitive load there. There's no learning. It's
32:10
not authentic. But right. Yeah. What about a
32:15
teacher using it to get ideas to help generate
32:17
develop lessons and stuff? Do they need to be
32:20
transparent with their students? Like, hey, AI
32:22
helped me generate this learning activity, you
32:25
know, and Do they need to be open and honest
32:28
about that with their own kids? Yeah. Yeah. And
32:32
my take on that is I don't know but I do know
32:34
the more we model it and talk to kids about it
32:37
to show them behind the scenes of how we interact
32:39
with it, that's a good thing. So we're kind of
32:47
dancing around some of these AI ethical and stuff
32:50
here, but I think we're also circling around
32:53
kind of like, to me, I think also is one of the
32:56
most important things to always keep in mind
32:58
when using AI for whatever purpose, to whatever
33:01
extent, right? Is that it has to emphasize that
33:06
human centered approach, right? How do we try
33:12
to make sure that we're leveraging the benefits
33:15
of using tools that AI can help us with, but
33:19
still keep that human element central in our
33:24
processes with it? So I came across this quote.
33:30
that a person named Angela Daberfall and she
33:33
said that to really push the envelope of AI,
33:36
you have to be at the edge of your craft. The
33:39
models meet you where you are. And the way that
33:42
I interpret that and the way that I experienced
33:44
that is, you know, if I am hopefully an effective
33:50
and engaging educator, I know what good looks
33:54
like. I am the trained professional. I know my
33:57
students. I know the culture. I know what might
34:00
land and what might not land. And if I can clearly
34:05
communicate with AI what good looks like, I am
34:08
the driver. I am still forming and shaping whatever
34:15
it is that I'm doing. And I think that that plays
34:17
a huge part in this human element, right? Now
34:20
that's current, right? Maybe will AI in five
34:24
years be better than me? I mean, probably. I
34:27
don't know. But like right now, I just think
34:31
that, you know, and and because you don't want
34:34
to lose the humanness of the work. And I think
34:36
if you outsource a lot of that and you lose.
34:40
In my experience, authenticity. If if you don't
34:45
have your own voice in the work, if you, you
34:48
know, we all know what I. content looks like.
34:51
I mean, the more you use it, you can peg it,
34:52
right? Like you see, obviously the M dashes,
34:54
but like there's a lot more to it. Like the structure,
34:58
the key phrases, like if we don't keep our voice
35:04
in it and if we don't keep our humanness in it,
35:08
I don't know about you, but when I see AI stuff
35:10
that's just AI, I'm not as interested in it.
35:12
I don't care as much. I like to see what people
35:15
really think. And I go around back and forth,
35:20
you know, like when I use it to say, help me
35:23
with some interview questions and I'll throw
35:25
out some different topics and things that I think
35:27
we should talk about, but then it helps me structure
35:29
some of those into questions. But I always then
35:31
go back and like, I would not ask the question
35:34
this way, you know, but I like the direction
35:37
that it's going. So I find the way. to input
35:40
it into my own voice. Right. And I think, you
35:44
know, and we touched on this a little bit off
35:48
air here. But, you know, I kind of harken back
35:50
a little bit to like, Ethan Mollick, and in some
35:53
of the work that he has done within the human
35:55
centered approach here. And, and I share this
35:58
every time that I present on AI to about when
36:00
is the best time to go to AI. And it's when it's
36:03
going to be better than the best human available
36:05
to you at that time. Right? So it should still
36:09
be invited to those, you know, high level thought
36:12
discussions that you're having. But you know
36:15
what? If there's someone better that you can
36:17
actually pick up the phone or you could get on
36:19
a video call with and you can have that conversation
36:22
with them like we're doing now, it's going to
36:25
be better than anything AI can do for you. And
36:28
it centers that human kind of and puts them back
36:31
in control. Yeah, I love that. I love that book
36:34
is like my top recommend of all time. Co -intelligence
36:37
by Ethan Malik. Is that one of your top two?
36:40
Yeah, yeah. When it comes to AI, 100%. Coming
36:45
back to relationships, we're wired for belonging,
36:47
we're wired for relationships, and I think people
36:49
run the risk of going to AI for that feeling
36:53
like it's a relationship, but it's not. Yes,
36:56
we have a relationship in the way we interact
36:58
with it, but as a solopreneur who's working in
37:02
my basement with no best available human sometimes,
37:06
I do pull up the voice piece or I bounce ideas
37:10
around and it is a great tool for that. And I
37:13
still need to collaborate with humans. And that's
37:16
not what you're saying. But I'm just talking
37:17
about how I'm being intentional around that because
37:21
it's not a real replacement. But I can see how
37:24
people could become that for some. So yeah, just
37:28
as you had mentioned, when you're interacting
37:32
with AI, it's very easy to kind of take a backseat
37:36
to it because it does take the reins so much.
37:39
But one thing that I think you you have emphasized
37:43
is that AI should be an innovative thought partner,
37:47
and we shouldn't just allow it to kind of take
37:50
the reins and we take a backseat to it. So can
37:54
you share an example of AI sparking real creativity
37:57
in learning or training? So when you do engage
38:00
either through the voice interactions or working
38:03
with AI through you know, having to create something,
38:07
where does the real creativity come in? Yeah,
38:10
so one of the mindsets that I teach mindset number
38:13
two is interact collaboratively with AI as a
38:17
capable and fallible thought partner. Collaboration,
38:21
it is a co laboring, it is a like, back and forth.
38:25
And it kind of makes me think about, like, John
38:29
had he did some research, what? What is the top
38:33
strategy that teachers use that have the biggest
38:35
impact on student learning outcomes? Do you know?
38:39
Can you guess? I'm gonna guess that it's, I'm
38:47
thinking of the wrong type, like the brain dump
38:50
where you get rid of everything that's in their
38:52
retrieval practice. Oh, so like getting the kids
38:55
to carry the cognitive load in some way, whatever
38:57
that looks like. That might be, there's not,
39:00
that's like a general category, but like, um,
39:02
and they're probably some of the top ones are
39:04
in that. But the one that is the biggest impact
39:07
on student learning outcomes is something called
39:08
collective efficacy, which is a fancy word for
39:12
as a team or a PLC, like we believe that our
39:16
actions can impact, you know, in our, in our
39:18
work together can impact and help our learners,
39:21
but like sharing, collaborating, you know, getting
39:23
different angles, ideas, utilizing each other's
39:26
strengths and I just think like if we treated
39:29
AI like, yes, it's not a person and yes, you
39:32
have to be careful with anthropomorphism, but
39:35
like a member of that team in that planning process
39:39
of like, as you let's just say, we're talking
39:41
about with this creativity and training or learning.
39:46
What if when we were going to try to figure out
39:49
what is the highest leverage instructional strategy
39:51
we can use to teach this concept or an area,
39:53
you know, a misconception that kids are struggling
39:55
with or something like that. What if we thought
40:00
partnered with it to come up with high engagement
40:05
research -based learning activities that might
40:09
be outside the box of what we always do? I don't
40:13
know about you, but as I taught more and more,
40:17
I sort of had a library that I always pulled
40:20
from and maybe I could have had more variety
40:22
or maybe there was things I didn't think of,
40:25
but what if I... Invited AI to say, hey, I'm
40:29
teaching about this. The kids are struggling.
40:32
Use a research based strategy that's going to
40:35
help me engage. Right. So maybe it's like an
40:36
example. Identifying this or what would be one.
40:43
Coming up with analogies or metaphors. That's
40:45
actually one. It's a really high up there example
40:47
of a high leverage strategy. Well, I might not
40:49
feel creative at that moment, and I might want
40:52
to get a bank of 10. Give me 10 ideas to AI.
40:56
that are going to help me teach this, teach an
40:58
analogy or a metaphor or come up with a story
41:00
or come up with a compare contrast or something
41:04
that is going to be high impact and help kids
41:08
learn. And I just think like if you were to think
41:13
creatively, co collaborating with AI to come
41:16
up with that with things like that, I feel like
41:19
that's just a great example of of how you can
41:22
use it to enhance your creativity. and yet still
41:25
kind of be in control and be at the center of
41:27
it. So do you think there's a concern in like
41:31
David, you know, of creative offloading? David
41:35
and I have talked a lot about cognitive offloading.
41:38
Is it possible to just offload too much creative
41:41
tasks to AI? And, you know, at what point do
41:45
we pull back the reins and say, no, this needs
41:47
to be me again? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, candidly.
41:52
Sometimes for me after a long day, you know,
41:55
I do, I'd like to drive a lot, but like I'll
41:58
even like when I'm working on something, I'd
41:59
be like, I'm too, my brain's too tired. I can't
42:01
think right now. Just tell me what to do. Right.
42:03
But no, I mean, whoever's carrying the cognitive
42:07
load is doing the learning. Right. So like in
42:09
this case, I mean, I'm yes, I'm the teacher and
42:12
yeah, I'm not like, it's not my job to learn.
42:13
It's my job to, you know, create learning experiences
42:16
for kids, but like, it's a good to make that
42:18
parallel to connection, but like, Yeah, if you're
42:21
not applying your taste and judgment and expertise
42:24
and you're just outsourcing it. Yeah, I mean.
42:28
Yeah, I don't think that's creativity necessarily
42:30
human creativity anyways. Yeah, but I still do
42:35
feel like. AI could help you push the envelope
42:37
of where, you know, you could take your creativity
42:40
to the next level, just like it does with your
42:42
thinking, you know, it can suggest different
42:44
ways to, you know, approach a problem, maybe
42:48
to add more empathy to a certain situation that
42:51
you can then, you know, further express and to
42:54
reach the needs of the different makeup of your
42:58
audience, you know, or your Yeah, yes. Yeah,
43:02
I agree with that. I did some hard work and thinking
43:06
on like, what is creativity and how does AI play
43:08
a role? And so it might be helpful to say like,
43:10
here's how I define creativity is the process
43:14
of combining ideas together in useful and surprising
43:17
ways. And that's a blend of a few different definitions
43:20
that I've seen, but like combining ideas together,
43:24
most, most creativity comes from seeds or ideas
43:27
that were maybe disconnected and put not put
43:29
together. And so you, your job is to help. combine
43:34
ideas together and useful and surprising it needs
43:36
to catch people off guard a little bit needs
43:37
to be interesting it needs to be maybe even solve
43:41
a problem and uh when we one of the ai actually
43:47
there's some some research on this like is ai
43:49
creative and it turns out like right now humans
43:53
are a little bit more creative than ai but ai
43:55
is super practical because it it's a pattern
43:57
predictor so it's getting stuff that already
43:59
you know exists and so like if you were to pair
44:02
your own creativity your own ideation with the
44:06
practicalness of ai like that's a really powerful
44:09
combination and kind of back to what we were
44:12
talking about earlier is like um you only have
44:15
so much energy to do the work right to do whatever
44:18
it is that you want to do and another quote that
44:21
i love by yo -yo ma is creativity is infinite
44:24
energy is not an ai opens up the door to take
44:28
away some of the energy needs to create something
44:31
that you could still envision, drive, and steer,
44:34
and I think that's creativity. That's really
44:39
interesting because I kind of think to go back
44:41
to the best available human idea, what you could
44:45
be the best, yourself could be the best available
44:47
human, but Like if you said, you know, you're
44:50
running low of energy at the end of the day and
44:52
you're like, no, please just make this decision
44:54
for me. You know, AI is not going to get fatigued
44:58
in the way that I get fatigued, that you get
45:01
fatigued, that humans get fatigued, you know.
45:05
I think one of the things to do with that is
45:08
you can maintain some of that with things like
45:12
frameworks that have been put out. I know that
45:14
you've kind of championed the crafting framework.
45:17
which I have used the craft one a lot, and I'm
45:21
familiar with crafting after attending your session
45:23
and things. But I think that is one thing that,
45:27
while it may not always be necessary, I think
45:31
it does those frameworks help someone who's not
45:34
as familiar with AI. So say it's like take an
45:37
elementary teacher, for example, if they haven't
45:40
used AI and these frameworks can help them with
45:44
putting in their own thoughts and establishing
45:47
what those are to get them moving in the right
45:49
direction. Otherwise, like I do, I do kind of
45:54
see where when you're starting very basic, there
45:58
might be a tendency to just kind of go, okay,
46:00
well, I wrote this really, you know, this one
46:02
line prompt, and now it gave me what I wanted.
46:04
So that's good enough. And I'll go with that,
46:07
you know. So I, I do like those frameworks a
46:11
lot for being able to communicate and collaborate,
46:13
collaborate with AI. in an effective way. I don't
46:19
know what your thoughts are on that but that's
46:20
kind of what came to my mind. Yeah, absolutely.
46:24
That idea of I put in one line into AI and I
46:27
either used it or I hear a lot, oh, it just wasn't
46:29
any good or I didn't like it and it's like that's
46:32
because you didn't prompt right and or you didn't
46:36
push AI. It's not a one and done situation. It's
46:41
an iteration. And so, yeah, of course, there
46:45
are lots of other frameworks out there. And I
46:48
think that the term prompt engineering has gotten
46:50
some, I don't know if the word is flack or like,
46:52
oh, you don't really need to know how to prompt
46:54
engineer. And I think that the word engineering
46:56
is the wrong word. It's really good communication.
47:00
Maybe we already talked about this, but if you
47:02
can essentially communicate and paint a vision
47:06
of what you're trying to do, you're going to
47:10
get better outputs. CRAFT in that framework is
47:16
basically a how do you prompt? And yes, there
47:17
are other other ones out there. What I think
47:20
is a little different, and I think maybe would
47:23
be good to underscore is like the embedded mindsets
47:26
that are a part of this process. So I would describe
47:28
the way I've at least described it is prompting
47:31
skill sets. It's the skill set of communicating
47:33
of, you know, kind of crafting your prompt. But
47:35
then there's four mindsets that I've narrowed
47:39
it down to that I think are essential for both
47:42
our AI interactions as adults, but also for kids.
47:46
And I'll share those. So mindset one goes with
47:50
the craft part, but it's craft communication
47:53
to get results that match your goals. So think
47:55
of it like a communication. Mindset two is interact
47:59
collaboratively with AI as a capable and fallible
48:02
thought partner. So it's an iteration. It's a
48:04
collaboration. Mindset three is narrow creatively
48:09
with human expertise. There is a creativity involved
48:12
here. It's way too easy to make white noise and
48:16
unlimited content, but you need to be able to
48:19
pick out the best and use what's actually gonna
48:21
land. And then mindset four is ground critically
48:26
and responsibly the inputs and outputs. So the
48:29
information, the content you're putting in, we
48:31
talked about already, and then how you're using
48:33
it. checking it for bias, checking it for accuracy.
48:38
And so really those four, which are kind of framed
48:43
in or integrated in the four C's, communication,
48:46
collaboration, creativity, and critical thinking.
48:50
I think being able to have those paradigms in
48:55
the way that you show up in your AI interactions
48:58
will change the way that you interact with it.
49:01
Right. And does there need to be some sort of
49:04
like a pedagogical approach to instruction of
49:09
helping people become better prompters, you know,
49:12
like you need some practice with it. Right. And
49:14
so that's where I think a framework kind of comes
49:16
in and it helps. Make sure that you're hitting
49:19
these key points. But after you've used it and
49:22
you've become familiar with those mindset approaches
49:25
that you need to take with it, you don't have
49:26
to sit there with the acronym in front of you
49:29
and in interacting with it or or like we were
49:32
talking about earlier, you turn on the dictation
49:35
microphone and you just start. It's viewing it
49:38
all out into one endless stream of thought and
49:41
then it sorts it into those different Areas for
49:44
you which then helps your input right to get
49:47
a better output from it But yeah, I think you
49:50
still need to practice with it with yeah, whatever
49:53
framework that you're that you're using as your
49:55
approach But it's only gonna make you better
49:58
in the long run. Yeah Yeah, that's super I resonates
50:03
a ton. It's not rigid formula. It's not a step
50:05
-by -step you have and there's no magic words
50:07
It's just here are elements of good communication
50:11
and here's how to interact with it in a human
50:13
centered way a responsible way Yeah, I agree.
50:16
It becomes the more you do it. It just becomes
50:19
a part of second nature And sometimes you don't
50:22
even care. You just get one line. That's all
50:24
you need or best tip for prompting that I've
50:28
seen is tell it what you want to do whatever
50:31
that one line is and then say you've probably
50:33
seen this too but like interview me one question
50:35
at a time to learn more so you can give me the
50:38
best possible answer and that will treat it like
50:40
a conversation and then it'll get all the context
50:42
and you'll come up with something a lot better
50:44
yeah and i think that's good too because if it's
50:47
a lot of times i liken it to like if if you and
50:51
i were having a conversation and you wanted me
50:53
to do some task the more information I have,
50:56
the better off, the more successful I'm going
50:58
to be, right? And I'm meeting whatever the request
51:03
was to complete that task. Which if I have minimal
51:08
information, just even as human beings communicating,
51:10
it's going to be really difficult to do that,
51:13
right? Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a great
51:15
example. Okay. Tyler, to wrap up here, we're
51:20
going to just hit you with a bunch of quick questions
51:22
in our lightning round. Some AI related, some
51:26
not, some more personal, but we're going to,
51:28
you can give a one word answer if you want or
51:31
one line or whatever you feel is appropriate.
51:34
But we're going to go ahead. I'm going to start.
51:36
The first question is dogs, cats or robots? Dogs,
51:41
obviously dogs. If I said robots, you all wouldn't
51:46
think I'm human probably. I mean, and it's not
51:48
true. I would never pick that. Okay, how about
51:52
a favorite AI tool at the moment? I'll be outside
51:58
the box a little bit. We talked earlier about
52:01
how much I love voice to text and I have a tool
52:06
called Super Whisper. There are other versions
52:08
like Whisper Sync and other ones that I have
52:10
natively that lives on my laptop. That is a shortcut
52:13
button that I just press like option space bar
52:15
and anything I say anywhere on my desktop will
52:18
turn into text. and I've been kind of like addicted
52:22
to it because it just helps me organize my thoughts
52:25
better. So super whisper. It's for Macs right
52:28
now, but there are other ones for other options
52:30
too. Okay, you probably already answered this.
52:33
Oh, I gotta say that. Here's the one of the reasons
52:35
it's great. It's local. It's all on my computer.
52:37
So it's like private. So and it's really accurate.
52:40
Keep going. Okay. Yeah, I was just gonna the
52:42
next one. I think you already answered this one,
52:44
but it's in our conversation, but a book you'd
52:47
make everyone read if they're new to AI. Yeah,
52:50
yeah, I mean, yeah, for sure Co intelligence
52:53
second top recommended book is the AI driven
52:55
leader really like that one on inviting AI to
52:59
leadership tasks. All right. How about the most
53:04
underrated human quality in the age of AI? Authenticity,
53:12
I think authenticity, I don't think that's underrated
53:14
necessarily, but I just as we talk about AI,
53:17
the importance of Being authentic your voice
53:21
your ideas like the connect the human connection
53:24
it matters and if in and if you're not authentic
53:27
you got nothing All right next one morning routine
53:30
coffee tea or prompt engineering It's a tough
53:35
choice, so they all go together, you know, so
53:37
well coffee for sure. I'm a coffee guy I had
53:40
an afternoon cup with you guys today, which was
53:42
nice All right, and one more just to wrap up
53:46
here favorite one -liner or maybe a misnomer
53:49
about AI in education? Say, whoever is working
53:56
hardest is the one learning the most. They're
54:00
growing the dendrites, right? If you're passively
54:04
involved, whether it be in learning, whether
54:06
it be in using AI, whether it be as a teacher,
54:09
if you are passive, you're not learning. You
54:11
have to carry the cognitive load. You have to
54:14
work with it, wrestle with it, productive struggle.
54:16
And I just think that as we talk about all this
54:19
stuff of using AI in education and worries about
54:23
the ethics and cheating and all that, it's like
54:26
it boils down to we're a learning institution.
54:29
We're here for learning. And you still got to
54:31
figure out ways for yourself and your students
54:33
if you're using it for them to do some of that
54:35
struggle. Awesome. I love it how you kind of
54:37
tied that all together there with the last question.
54:39
That was really cool. Before we let you go, Tyler,
54:43
do you have anything that you have coming up
54:45
that you would like to share that promote or
54:48
just a final parting word if not? Yeah. Well,
54:53
most of what I have been doing, I do a lot of
54:55
private in -house things. I come to a lot of
54:58
districts, whether it be district kickoff keynotes
55:02
or workshops, like leadership workshops. or or
55:06
workshops like um with staff i've done up to
55:09
two i guess the range of what i what i do with
55:11
people is an hour and a half or two hour kickoff
55:14
crash course here's what ai is here's some of
55:17
the biggest mistakes here's my favorite ways
55:19
i use it and here's a framework that's been really
55:21
successful in terms of people getting like a
55:24
high value bang for your buck situation to get
55:26
everybody grounded um all the way to like you
55:29
know one of my favorites is like half day deep
55:31
dives where Yeah, we do the kickoff, but then
55:33
we workshop real work. We get in there and actually
55:35
use the tools, maybe solve some real problems.
55:38
Um, and then I do, you know, full days or multi
55:40
days. And I just, you know, I'd love if this,
55:43
if the way that I'm talking about AI is resonating
55:45
with you and you, um, I'd love to have a conversation
55:48
about what it might be, uh, like to come and
55:50
work with, uh, whether it be small teams or,
55:52
or, or entire districts. That would be, uh, that
55:54
would be fun. And we'll definitely link your
55:57
website in the show notes and so that if people
55:59
want to get a hold of you We'll have that in
56:02
the in the description how they can get get in
56:04
touch Nice. Yeah, thank you and linkedin is the
56:07
only platform that I'm currently using but Connect
56:10
on linkedin as well tyler moberg and we'll be
56:12
erg and I'd love to I'd love to have a conversation
56:15
Awesome. Well appreciate your time today tyler.
56:18
I think we had some awesome conversation and
56:21
yeah best of luck for the rest of the year Thank
56:25
you. It's fun to nerd out on this stuff with,
56:27
with two guys who we were in the same, same boat,
56:29
right? We both, we all have kind of similar passions
56:32
and interests. So it's fun to have fun to sit
56:34
and talk. Awesome. Thanks so much. Yes. Thank
56:37
you. Thanks for listening to integrate this.
56:41
Want to take your learning further? Head over
56:44
to our YouTube channel for quick tutorials, deep
56:46
dives and more ed tech tips you can use right
56:49
away. Don't forget to subscribe and catch new
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podcast episodes every Thursday on Apple, Spotify,
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or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next
57:00
time, keep exploring, keep innovating, and keep
57:04
integrating this.