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Dating After Divorce: How to Trust Yourself to Move On · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:00
  Leah: You can't make what other people choose to do mean something about you.
• 0:11
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
• 0:13
  Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
• 0:19
  Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
• 0:26
  Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
• 0:36
  Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature, and flourish.
• 0:40
  Mary: Let's dive in.
• 0:42
  Mary: Hey Violets, welcome to the show.
• 0:47
  Mary: I didn't get married for the first time until I was 37.
• 0:50
  Mary: I dated my first husband for over three years before we did get married.
• 0:55
  Mary: We divorced 10 years later.
• 0:57
  Mary: Of course, I never anticipated that that would happen to me.
• 1:00
  Mary: My parents were married for nearly 50 years before my dad died.
• 1:04
  Mary: I think what saved me from feeling guilt and shame for not, quote, making it work was that my ex-husband was the one that left.
• 1:12
  Mary: And up until then, I had been trying to keep the fire going, not allowing myself to recognize that the marriage had devolved into a pile of damp twigs.
• 1:20
  Mary: It was all smoke.
• 1:22
  Mary: Before and after my marriage, I dated a lot.
• 1:26
  Mary: I also had several multiple year-long relationships in my life.
• 1:29
  Mary: My husband now is the best partner I could have hoped for.
• 1:33
  Mary: But I had to try and fail.
• 1:35
  Mary: And I use that word without any negative meaning to find what I have now.
• 1:40
  Mary: I think my experience after divorce was actually easier because I didn't have kids.
• 1:45
  Mary: I often thought how complicated it would have been to try to maintain a relationship with my ex and his girlfriend in order to give kids a more healthy parenting experience.
• 1:54
  Mary: My guest today is kind of a divorce expert.
• 1:58
  Mary: Not only has she navigated her own divorces, but like so many of my guests, she now uses the wisdom she's gained to help other women.
• 2:05
  Mary: I'm looking forward to exploring with her, moving on after divorce, both with and without children.
• 2:11
  Mary: Leah Maser is the down-to-earth divorce recovery queen with a fierce heart, a sharp mind, and zero time for BS.
• 2:19
  Mary: She's walked through fire more than once, healed her way forward, and built an empowering online space where single moms don't just survive, they rise.
• 2:28
  Mary: A certified coach, passionate creator, and self-growth junkie, she's the relatable bestie you wish you had during your divorce.
• 2:35
  Mary: I can relate, blending wisdom, wit, and that unshakable belief that your next chapter can be your best one.
• 2:42
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Leah.
• 2:44
  Mary: Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:46
  Mary: I am glad you're here.
• 2:48
  Mary: And I would love to start with you sharing some of the highlights or lowlights of your life that brought you to where you are.
• 2:55
  Mary: What gave you the insight and helped you to do the work you do today?
• 3:00
  Leah: So uh when I was 16 years old, my mom had an asthma attack in our home and died.
• 3:08
  Leah: Uh extremely tragic and traumatic, as you can imagine.
• 3:12
  Leah: And five years later, my dad had pancreatic cancer and died at 46 years old.
• 3:18
  Leah: So by the time I was 21 years old, uh, and I'm an only child, so it was really just me alone in the world trying to figure things out.
• 3:26
  Leah: And I didn't realize it at the time, but uh those losses really left me with severe abandonment issues, fear of being alone.
• 3:34
  Leah: And so my coping mechanism became serial monogamy.
• 3:38
  Leah: I mean, I was hopping from relationship to relationship for years because those were kind of the buoys keeping me afloat.
• 3:45
  Leah: Uh, if I wasn't in a relationship, I felt like I was just kind of like floating around on the planet by myself.
• 3:50
  Leah: And so a lot of failed relationships later, uh, and my second divorce was really just my ugly wake-up call of for me to focus on myself and go, okay, what why do I keep making the choices I'm making?
• 4:05
  Leah: Why do I find myself in these types of relationships over and over?
• 4:08
  Leah: What do I need to do differently to get different results?
• 4:11
  Leah: And that was kind of the catalyst for that healing and self-growth journey for myself, you know, getting into all things, you know, cultivating self-awareness and mindfulness and meditation and journaling and just all the things to help figure out why I was making the choices I was making.
• 4:28
  Leah: And that's what empowered me to make better choices moving forward.
• 4:30
  Leah: So then when I kind of got to the, you know, quote unquote other side, I had a whole toolkit, right?
• 4:36
  Leah: I had I had a ton of different resources and tools to then be able to help other women going through divorce uh or separation so that they don't have to learn things the hard way like I did.
• 4:51
  Mary: Well, and it's so interesting that that was part of your journey because I had my parents into well into my adulthood, but after my divorce, I swung crazy, like overcompensated in one direction, and then that didn't work out and overcompensated in another direction.
• 5:10
  Mary: And it's so that sort of frantic scrambling to do it right the next time.
• 5:16
  Mary: Yeah, but you really have to stop and reflect on why did I make the choices?
• 5:22
  Leah: What went into those choices, right?
• 5:24
  Leah: Yes, it's huge.
• 5:25
  Leah: When you come out of a relationship, it's very easy to point the finger and say, well, they never did this and they kept doing this and they never showed up the way they needed to.
• 5:34
  Leah: And all of that is valid, I'm sure, but that's not going to help you choose different partners moving forward.
• 5:41
  Leah: Partners who are more aligned with really what you need and who you want to be.
• 5:45
  Leah: That empowerment piece comes from self-reflection and you looking back and going, okay, but what role did I play in this relationship?
• 5:52
  Leah: Because maybe everything wasn't my fault, but I did play a role.
• 5:56
  Leah: So where was I mentally and emotionally when I started that relationship?
• 6:00
  Leah: What red flags did I miss or ignore?
• 6:03
  Leah: What boundaries was I not setting, right?
• 6:06
  Leah: How do I want to show up differently?
• 6:07
  Leah: And what will I or will I not tolerate moving forward in relationships?
• 6:12
  Mary: Yeah.
• 6:12
  Mary: Yeah.
• 6:13
  Mary: I think knowing that going into it is so much better, so much makes it so much easier.
• 6:20
  Mary: But we often don't step back and take a take a breath and try to figure it out.
• 6:27
  Mary: So what do you feel like in your work have, or maybe from your own personal experience, what are some of the biggest mistakes women do make after divorces and how do you think they can maybe sidestep them?
• 6:39
  Leah: One of the biggest mistakes is hopping into a relationship too soon.
• 6:43
  Leah: Um, and it's completely understandable.
• 6:46
  Leah: I've been there myself.
• 6:47
  Leah: It's an easy distraction.
• 6:49
  Leah: It's a way to just kind of numb out, it's a way to make you feel better about yourself.
• 6:55
  Leah: You know, if you've been in a marriage where you really haven't gotten positive attention or affection from someone for maybe sometimes years, you could be wanting that and desperate for that from for someone else.
• 7:07
  Leah: Um, or you just don't know how to be alone.
• 7:10
  Leah: And so that's a way to kind of fill that void.
• 7:11
  Leah: So there's a lot of reasons that make sense why people would do that.
• 7:15
  Leah: However, when you're choosing a partner from a place of lack, and when you're choosing a partner to fill a void within yourself, you are not gonna be choosing your ideal partner, right?
• 7:27
  Leah: You're probably choosing someone that maybe temporarily, like a band-aid, will feel good or help out, but that relationship probably has an expiration date, and then you're gonna wind up right back where you started.
• 7:37
  Leah: So you really have to take the time to figure out who you are, what you need, how to meet your own needs, right?
• 7:47
  Leah: And get yourself to a place where you feel whole and happy and fulfilled all by yourself because then you're gonna show up on those dates very differently.
• 7:58
  Leah: You're not gonna show up thinking, well, is he gonna like me?
• 8:01
  Leah: And am I saying the right thing?
• 8:02
  Leah: And did I wear the right clothes?
• 8:04
  Leah: And is he gonna think I have too much baggage?
• 8:06
  Leah: That's not gonna be the inner dialogue anymore.
• 8:08
  Leah: It's going to be, are you what I'm looking for?
• 8:11
  Leah: Do you have what I need in a relationship?
• 8:14
  Leah: Are you adding value to my life?
• 8:17
  Leah: Because if the answer is no, I don't need it then.
• 8:20
  Leah: I'm good.
• 8:20
  Leah: I don't need this relationship, right?
• 8:22
  Leah: A relationship should be a bonus.
• 8:24
  Leah: It shouldn't be something you need in order to feel happy or whole or enough or fulfilled.
• 8:30
  Mary: I love how you just said all of that.
• 8:32
  Mary: Because I think so often women are socialized that they need to be, look, act a certain way because they want to find a partner.
• 8:44
  Mary: Yes.
• 8:45
  Mary: So we go into it with that that exactly what you're saying.
• 8:50
  Mary: Like, you know, we try on 10 different outfits, and you know what?
• 8:54
  Mary: You can only maintain whatever illusion you're starting with for so long.
• 9:00
  Mary: Because at some point you have to be real.
• 9:02
  Mary: And so I think that's sometimes where we get tripped up too.
• 9:06
  Mary: We want to want that to be a perfect interaction and we're weighing everything we're saying, and we're afraid to eat because what are we going to look like when we eat?
• 9:13
  Mary: And it's like, well, if that becomes your partner, they're going to see you in a way worse situation than just eating an appetizer.
• 9:20
  Leah: Yeah.
• 9:20
  Leah: So it's really just getting comfortable with yourself, knowing that you are enough just as you are.
• 9:26
  Leah: You like yourself, you respect yourself, and then you're going to attract partners who do the same.
• 9:32
  Leah: And you don't have to be anyone different or shrink yourself to get them to like you.
• 9:37
  Leah: Because at the end of the day, if they don't like how you do something, that's not your person.
• 9:43
  Leah: Thank you.
• 9:44
  Leah: Next.
• 9:44
  Mary: Yeah.
• 9:45
  Mary: Well, and I think when we're starting in a relationship, there is definitely the kind of like the high of the neurotransmitters, of the dopamine, and all of that new love stuff feels really good.
• 10:00
  Mary: And when you're a serial dater, it's like a high every time.
• 10:05
  Mary: You can be perfect to someone until you're not.
• 10:09
  Mary: And that fairy tale seems so possible.
• 10:13
  Leah: Yes.
• 10:14
  Leah: And that's why it's so important to go slow and take your time.
• 10:19
  Leah: One of the most common fears I hear from clients is, especially particularly those coming out of um toxic relationships.
• 10:27
  Leah: Like if they were with a narcissist, for example, they're so scared that they're just going to find themselves in another relationship like that.
• 10:33
  Leah: Like, how do I know I'm not going to wind up with someone like this again?
• 10:37
  Leah: And really, the secret sauce is take your time because everyone's always on their best behavior for those first, you know, 90 days, right?
• 10:45
  Leah: When all those chemical, those happy chemicals are going through your brain or however long, you know, that takes.
• 10:50
  Leah: And so you really have to give yourself time to see how this person acts when real life things happen.
• 10:58
  Leah: Like what happens when they get caught in a traffic jam?
• 11:01
  Leah: What happens when an appointment gets canceled that was unexpected, right?
• 11:04
  Leah: What happens when like things uh ruin their plans?
• 11:08
  Leah: How do they respond to that?
• 11:10
  Leah: How do they react?
• 11:12
  Leah: And and is that what you need?
• 11:15
  Leah: Is this someone where you know that you can approach these issues and communicate well?
• 11:20
  Leah: Or is this something that maybe you feel like, you know what, this isn't aligned with me.
• 11:24
  Leah: This isn't the right uh kind of person for who I need in in my life.
• 11:30
  Leah: So take your time, you know, there's no rush.
• 11:33
  Leah: And time really will also show you all those red flags.
• 11:36
  Leah: I mean, everybody, again, is on their best behavior in the beginning, but that's not sustainable for somebody who's not being genuine.
• 11:42
  Leah: So the the longer you give them, all of those things will kind of start to unearth themselves.
• 11:48
  Mary: And I think another mistake sometimes women make is when something isn't going right or when there is a reaction, like let's say you're late to a date and it's unavoidable, it's not your fault, but there's a very strong negative reaction from the other person.
• 12:02
  Mary: We are very quick to blame ourselves.
• 12:05
  Mary: This is my fault.
• 12:06
  Mary: I should have done this, I should have done this differently.
• 12:09
  Mary: So is that a theme you see a lot?
• 12:12
  Mary: And when you do see it, how do you help women see that more clearly that they're not responsible for the success of a relationship?
• 12:21
  Leah: Yeah, I think it's such a such a delicate balance, right?
• 12:24
  Leah: Because you do want to be someone who can hold yourself accountable and take responsibility when you do make mistakes, but at the same time, you don't want to be someone who's always blaming yourself for everything.
• 12:36
  Leah: So I think just cultivating self-awareness is that key piece and um trying to see things more objectively instead of from an ego base.
• 12:45
  Leah: And so when you do show up, if it really was something that was completely out of your hands, like a car accident or a traffic jam or something like you left on time, you would have gotten there on time if it weren't for this thing that was out of your hands.
• 12:57
  Leah: Uh, if that person isn't understanding to that, that's certainly not something you should be feeling bad about or taking the blame for.
• 13:03
  Leah: If anything, that's kind of a sign that this person just isn't maybe capable of empathy or just have having that compassion piece.
• 13:11
  Leah: And so that would be a red flag to me.
• 13:13
  Leah: On the other hand, if you maybe you were just, you know, bad at time management that day and you you tried on too many outfits and you got there too late, you know, which happens too.
• 13:22
  Leah: We're all human, right?
• 13:23
  Leah: And you get there late and and you know, maybe they're not too happy about it, then also you can own up and say, hey, listen, you know, you're right, I'm sorry.
• 13:30
  Leah: I didn't mean to be rude.
• 13:31
  Leah: Um, you know, it, I, I, I should have maybe planned ahead a little bit better and instead of leaving you waiting.
• 13:37
  Leah: You know, it's almost like flipping the flipping the um the seat, like in reverse.
• 13:42
  Leah: You know, if it was you and that person came and it was really just a time management issue and they should have done a better job so that they considered you and in your time, um, you would probably want them to apologize, right?
• 13:53
  Leah: Because if that's respectful.
• 13:56
  Leah: Um, if it was something completely out of their control, would you be mad about it?
• 14:00
  Leah: And so if you wouldn't, well then kind of look at them the same way.
• 14:03
  Leah: You know, if they're overreacting to something that was out of your control, that's probably a red flag.
• 14:09
  Mary: Yeah.
• 14:09
  Mary: Well, and I like the idea of taking the break, not falling right back into the next thing because it's really easy to do that.
• 14:16
  Mary: Again, we have things like online dating.
• 14:19
  Mary: So you can get your dopamine hit by go, it's like shopping, right?
• 14:23
  Mary: You can go on there and start to start to look at what are all the options.
• 14:27
  Mary: And so when a woman is really chomping at the bit, and I think there's also some of I want to do over because I want to do it quote right this time.
• 14:35
  Mary: We went, we rush to try to like do it right the next time.
• 14:39
  Mary: How do you advise women to take this break when they're really wanting to lean into the next thing?
• 14:46
  Leah: Yeah.
• 14:46
  Leah: So it's so important to do a couple of things.
• 14:49
  Leah: One is you need to make sure that you're giving yourself the space to heal, but also to learn how to enjoy your own company.
• 14:58
  Leah: Figure out how to just like being by yourself and pass the time and take yourself out on dates and do things that are fun for you.
• 15:05
  Leah: Also, hobbies and creative outlets are huge.
• 15:09
  Leah: Uh, not only is that a great space for you to get to know yourself, uh, to build your confidence if you're doing things that uh are fun or that um, you know, it gives you something to look forward to.
• 15:21
  Leah: But also it, if you're going and doing things that you enjoy, you're creating opportunities to meet like-minded people.
• 15:28
  Leah: And so making friends and having that community and all of those things plays into you not feeling so desperate to like find another relationship.
• 15:37
  Leah: Um after my second divorce, or as my second marriage was crumbling, really, um, I decided I wanted to pursue singing.
• 15:46
  Leah: Singing was something I always loved to do, but I was kind of like a closet singer.
• 15:49
  Leah: It wasn't something that I like to told people about.
• 15:51
  Leah: But I was like, you know what?
• 15:52
  Leah: New chapter, new me.
• 15:54
  Leah: I'm gonna try things differently this time.
• 15:56
  Leah: And so I went online and I found a local band that was auditioning lead vocalists.
• 16:01
  Leah: And I said, you know what?
• 16:02
  Leah: I'm gonna do it.
• 16:03
  Leah: And um, I was terrified.
• 16:05
  Leah: I mean, the whole drive there, I was like sweating and shaking and listening to confidence hypnosis apps to try to pump me up.
• 16:12
  Leah: Um, but I told myself, you know what?
• 16:15
  Leah: I'm just so proud of myself for showing up.
• 16:17
  Leah: Like, regardless of even what the result is of this, I'm just I'm pushing myself outside of my comfort zone and I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna give it a try.
• 16:24
  Leah: So I did the audition, I did the best I could, and I ended up getting the part.
• 16:28
  Leah: And I was so proud of myself.
• 16:30
  Leah: And so then I had this thing that I was doing that was just for me that I was excited about and I looked forward to and I was passionate about.
• 16:38
  Leah: And um, it was it was an outlet, it was a creative outlet.
• 16:41
  Leah: And also I met so many people over the years then from from being in different bands and connected with other local musicians.
• 16:49
  Leah: And so this was a part of my life that brought me so much fulfillment.
• 16:52
  Leah: And every time I got up to that microphone, uh my confidence built.
• 16:55
  Leah: So then I was also building my confidence and figuring out who I was and like showing myself what I was really capable of.
• 17:01
  Leah: So just and it could be anything.
• 17:03
  Leah: I mean, maybe you want a horseback ride, maybe you want to go hiking, maybe you want to pick up photography, dance class.
• 17:08
  Leah: I mean, it's traveling solo.
• 17:10
  Leah: It doesn't matter what it is, whatever that thing is that's calling you, go do it.
• 17:14
  Leah: Lean into it.
• 17:15
  Leah: That that's that's your time to explore and experiment and discover and really find the things that bring you joy and fulfillment.
• 17:23
  Leah: And also you'll learn a lot about yourself that way as well.
• 17:26
  Leah: And so when you're doing those things, that helps you feel more solid on your own and on your own two feet, and you're not so desperate to like hurry up and get partnered up with someone romantically.
• 17:38
  Mary: Yes, I love all of that because uh so many women.
• 17:41
  Mary: Well, I'm a therapist, so a lot I I encounter a lot of women who they don't know themselves.
• 17:47
  Mary: And I can only imagine as a young woman losing both your parents before you really were able to securely be a young adult yourself.
• 17:57
  Mary: I can imagine that just filled your field of vision, so to speak.
• 18:01
  Mary: Like those were so huge, I can't even imagine moving past that to try to figure out, okay, who am I?
• 18:09
  Mary: Because those losses are so much a part of who you were and are.
• 18:13
  Leah: Yes.
• 18:13
  Leah: Yeah.
• 18:14
  Leah: I mean, I spent so many years lost.
• 18:16
  Leah: And that's why I wound up in the wrong relationships over and over and over again.
• 18:21
  Leah: And so that's that's why my second divorce was really my ugly wake-up call.
• 18:24
  Leah: I was like, okay, I can't keep doing this.
• 18:27
  Leah: And now I can't keep dragging my daughter through this.
• 18:29
  Leah: Like, I need to figure out why I keep finding myself in this position so that I can make different decisions that give me different results.
• 18:37
  Mary: Yeah.
• 18:37
  Mary: And I think one of the things that is really important is that you're talking about it.
• 18:41
  Mary: You're not out there saying I'm helping women and not talking about the fact that you didn't do some of these things initially that now you're trying to help people do because we're taught that when a marriage doesn't work, we should feel ashamed of that.
• 18:56
  Leah: Yes.
• 18:56
  Mary: And I think we need to break out of that.
• 18:58
  Leah: Oh, it drives me nuts.
• 19:00
  Leah: I don't understand how there's still such a stigma around divorce, honestly, with how common it is.
• 19:05
  Leah: Um, and I don't know why we look at a divorce as a failure.
• 19:10
  Leah: Um, I don't see it like that.
• 19:12
  Leah: My personal perspective is if you learned something, it's not a failure.
• 19:18
  Leah: I mean, that's growth, right?
• 19:20
  Leah: Sometimes you have to have relationships that don't work so that you can learn what you do need or what you will look for the next time, or what will work for you.
• 19:30
  Leah: I'm it's it's wild that marriage is one of those things that people expect you to get right on the first try.
• 19:37
  Leah: Like, why?
• 19:38
  Leah: What would make anyone think that that's, you know, what's the likelihood of that happening?
• 19:42
  Leah: Everything else we're allowed to have, we give ourselves the grace to try and fail and try and fail.
• 19:48
  Leah: And then you learn and you grow and you evolve.
• 19:50
  Leah: Um, and I really look at marriage the same way.
• 19:53
  Leah: I mean, nobody gets married and thinking they're gonna wind up divorced.
• 19:57
  Leah: Yeah, but also no good marriage ends in divorce.
• 20:02
  Leah: So at some point, you realize that something's not working for you.
• 20:06
  Leah: Great, good for you.
• 20:08
  Leah: You learned a lot about yourself, about relationships, about marriage, probably about life, maybe about parenting.
• 20:15
  Leah: You learn so much.
• 20:16
  Leah: So take that wisdom, bring it with you into the next chapter so that you can make choices that align with who you want to be moving forward.
• 20:26
  Mary: Yes.
• 20:26
  Mary: And I, as I said, I'm a therapist.
• 20:29
  Mary: And so people often think, well, you must make great decisions.
• 20:34
  Mary: Right.
• 20:34
  Mary: But it's like anything, you can be a roofer and your own roof can leak because you don't have enough time to fix it.
• 20:42
  Mary: So I thought, I'm gonna do this once, I'm gonna do it right.
• 20:46
  Mary: And I was 37, and there were things that happened I didn't have control over.
• 20:52
  Mary: And it, you know, so I think sometimes the narrative for women can be if only I had been fill in the blank, sexier, more attentive, a better cook.
• 21:01
  Mary: We tend to really take on a lot of the responsibility for our partner.
• 21:07
  Mary: And I'm talking right now heterosexual relationships, a lot of responsibility for something not working or our partner not being interested or or sticking around.
• 21:18
  Mary: Do you see that in your work?
• 21:20
  Leah: Definitely.
• 21:21
  Leah: Uh, especially when their partner um cheats or leaves and immediately is in another relationship, it's really easy to blame yourself.
• 21:31
  Leah: But you can't make what other people choose to do mean something about you because it doesn't, right?
• 21:39
  Leah: If they're choosing to um move on quickly, or if they chose to have an affair, uh at the end of the day, that really doesn't have anything to do with you.
• 21:51
  Leah: And it has a lot everything to do with them and their own issues and their own childhood traumas that maybe they didn't address, and it's it's all their own stuff, right?
• 22:00
  Leah: So you deserve to be with someone who you don't have to convince of your value.
• 22:07
  Leah: You shouldn't have to sell someone on why they should love you.
• 22:10
  Leah: And so if you're in a a partnership with someone who doesn't choose you, that's not your fault.
• 22:18
  Leah: And you need to choose yourself and walk away and pour into yourself so that you can have peace and happiness and joy and fulfillment and not rely on someone else to do that for you.
• 22:31
  Mary: And I think too often when we get into a relationship, we're looking at that man for the clues.
• 22:38
  Mary: How am I supposed to act?
• 22:39
  Mary: We we read these micro expressions really well.
• 22:42
  Mary: Oh, I said that.
• 22:43
  Mary: He didn't like that.
• 22:44
  Mary: And when you talk about taking time to be alone, whether that is after a divorce or even before you start seriously dating, maybe you want to establish a career, that is when you can get very grounded in your ability to support yourself, pursue what you want to pursue to really learn about who you are.
• 23:07
  Mary: I think that is so important.
• 23:09
  Leah: It's huge.
• 23:10
  Leah: I mean, that will change the whole trajectory of your life and the relationships that you choose.
• 23:16
  Leah: Because when you are living a life that feels aligned, it feels good to you, you're happy and you're healthy and you're fulfilled, and you're just passing the time and you're you have relationships with friends and family, and maybe you travel, and maybe you have hobbies, and then you have work and you have your kids and you're just doing having a full life.
• 23:34
  Leah: You're not going to worry so much about what other people think, especially when you start dating.
• 23:41
  Leah: If if there's something that um about yourself or about your life or about your beliefs or your perspectives, your choices that somebody else doesn't like, they don't need to.
• 23:51
  Leah: That's that's not your your person.
• 23:53
  Leah: And then you're not going to feel that pressure to change, like morph into someone just to make this person happy because you already know that your life is full and your standards are a lot higher, right?
• 24:07
  Leah: When you know your deal breakers and um you know what you need in a partner, and that will change how you act when you date and when you when you are looking for somebody.
• 24:18
  Mary: And I think we have to remember the context of marriage that it was only about 50 years ago that women could get a loan for a house.
• 24:25
  Mary: So our society has been set up that we become a wife.
• 24:30
  Mary: Like that is what we should be doing.
• 24:33
  Mary: And I think a lot of us, both you and I, recognize well, that's not really where your worth comes from.
• 24:39
  Mary: But for a long time, you got the side eye, especially at my age, the side eye of like, why are you not married yet?
• 24:46
  Mary: Why did you decide not to have kids?
• 24:47
  Mary: Because those things were the measure of how successful a woman was.
• 24:52
  Mary: Did you find a husband that has a good job and can support you?
• 24:55
  Mary: And I think we just haven't caught up.
• 24:58
  Mary: I think some women are starting, young women are starting to catch up and like, I don't need this.
• 25:02
  Mary: But I think there are still a lot of women that have a sense of shame that they have not been able to establish a deep, committed, caring relationship.
• 25:13
  Leah: Yes.
• 25:14
  Leah: Marriage is not, should not be the end all be all goal, uh, certainly.
• 25:19
  Leah: Um, and yes, I think you're right.
• 25:21
  Leah: I mean, as generations, you know, come and go, we're learning more and more that that really um isn't what is most important.
• 25:29
  Leah: And when you're in a place now where like so many women now uh financially can stand on their own, which I think has taken a it's taken a long time for us to get here.
• 25:41
  Leah: But now it's more and more women um they pay their own bills, they're they're making a good income.
• 25:47
  Leah: You know, they don't need to rely on someone uh for their resources.
• 25:51
  Leah: That in and of itself is uh so empowering because you you if you don't need someone, you're going to be very picky on who you choose to bring into your life.
• 26:05
  Leah: Um, I mean, I've made many uh relationship choices based off of survival mode, you know, because I was struggling financially and because I was just trying to keep myself afloat, I was desperate.
• 26:17
  Leah: Um, I didn't realize it at the time, but uh in retrospect, I can see it much more clearly.
• 26:22
  Leah: You know, I would move in with people way sooner than I should have because financially it was uh helpful and I needed the help.
• 26:30
  Leah: And I, and of course I thought, well, this will work out, it'll be, you know, this will be okay.
• 26:34
  Leah: And then it doesn't.
• 26:36
  Leah: Um, so when you have that piece, not not only you're in a place where you are fulfilled and happy on your own, but like financially you can support yourself, you don't need someone.
• 26:48
  Leah: And so um, yeah, it's it's uh the goal is not to be partnered up with someone.
• 26:54
  Leah: The goal is to, I think, just be happy and to like your life and to feel like you're in alignment.
• 26:59
  Leah: And so if if you enjoy having a romantic partner, great.
• 27:02
  Leah: You do you.
• 27:04
  Leah: Uh, if you enjoy being single and having your own space and not sharing it with anyone, great.
• 27:09
  Leah: You do you.
• 27:10
  Leah: Yeah, I think that people need to just uh live authentically.
• 27:15
  Leah: That should be the goal, right?
• 27:17
  Leah: Not, well, I did I need to get married and and and uh show people because also um being married doesn't mean you're successful.
• 27:26
  Leah: I mean, you know, I mean there's so many people that maybe they're still married legally, but um they're not very happy about it.
• 27:32
  Leah: And if they had, you know, if they could, they would probably uh leave that marriage, but there's certain things that are keeping them stuck.
• 27:38
  Leah: Um, you know, be careful not to be uh comparing yourself to social media.
• 27:42
  Leah: Uh the little snippets that we see are just that.
• 27:46
  Leah: They're snippets, you know, you really don't know what's going on behind closed doors.
• 27:50
  Leah: And so that's another thing, too, is like, you know, they say comparison is a thief of joy.
• 27:54
  Leah: It's so true.
• 27:54
  Leah: If you're if you're coming out of a divorce, um, be really careful that you're not letting your social media feeds make you feel worse about yourself because you're comparing your life to other people's and thinking that you're behind in life or um, you know, you're a failure.
• 28:08
  Leah: Uh, that's certainly not the case.
• 28:10
  Leah: And um just because someone's married doesn't mean that they're happy.
• 28:15
  Mary: And just because someone's in a marriage doesn't mean it's a perfect situation.
• 28:19
  Mary: There's an awful lot that we don't know behind the scenes.
• 28:23
  Leah: So, like you're saying, if you're seeing the vacations and all the things that we tend to put the family photos and the matching sweaters and the yeah, I mean, it looks good, but whether or not it is good on the inside, you know, you don't really know.
• 28:36
  Mary: Yeah.
• 28:37
  Mary: So we haven't talked about children.
• 28:39
  Mary: And I'm wondering in your work, when you have a woman who has gone through divorce and she has a child or two, but she is that woman that just wants to go back into those relationships, but is recognizing it's impacting the kids.
• 28:56
  Mary: How do you start with that or how do you work with that?
• 29:00
  Leah: I think it's it's the same tools.
• 29:03
  Leah: It's really asking yourself, well, why?
• 29:06
  Leah: Why why do I want a new relationship?
• 29:09
  Leah: Is it to fill a void?
• 29:10
  Leah: Is it because I'm lonely?
• 29:11
  Leah: Is it because I don't feel good about myself?
• 29:13
  Leah: Is it because I'm just desperate for attention?
• 29:15
  Leah: You know, those aren't that's not a good foundation to build a healthy long-term relationship on.
• 29:20
  Leah: Um, and certainly you don't want to be bringing people in and out of your kids' lives either.
• 29:24
  Leah: So um I think if you uh get to the place where you feel ready to date and and you want to date, I that's okay.
• 29:32
  Leah: I would keep your kids out of it and not introduce them until it's been a while.
• 29:38
  Leah: I mean, there really is no magic formula, but I think it's when you've dated someone long enough where you know that your goal is to really make that like the long haul kind of situation, right?
• 29:50
  Leah: Um, and even then you don't know.
• 29:51
  Leah: I mean, sometimes it might it doesn't work out, but um, you don't want to be bringing people in and out.
• 29:55
  Leah: Um, but just make sure that you're doing it for the right reasons.
• 29:59
  Leah: I think that's It is that it's that self-awareness piece is asking yourself.
• 30:04
  Leah: Am I really just trying to fill a void?
• 30:06
  Leah: You know, am I just lonely?
• 30:07
  Leah: Or did my ex move on quickly and now I'm struggling because they've got a girlfriend and they're living their best life and now I'm here alone and I don't know how to deal with that?
• 30:15
  Leah: Those aren't good reasons to get back on those dating apps.
• 30:20
  Mary: We also think alone is failure often.
• 30:23
  Mary: You know, when we see our ex move on, we don't know what that relationship is like.
• 30:27
  Mary: Maybe they fight all the time behind closed doors.
• 30:30
  Mary: We we make these assumptions, oh, he's happy now.
• 30:34
  Leah: Yes.
• 30:34
  Mary: And I'm alone.
• 30:36
  Mary: But I think if we can reframe that, aloneness is, I think, lovely.
• 30:42
  Mary: I mean, being able to have solitude and really just be still with yourself and do whatever you want really is a source of strength.
• 30:50
  Leah: Yeah.
• 30:51
  Leah: I that's a that's a total power move, in my opinion.
• 30:54
  Leah: Um, just knowing how to meet your own needs and to make yourself happy, um, that that is one of the most powerful things that any woman can do for themselves.
• 31:06
  Mary: And then you learn what does make you happy.
• 31:08
  Mary: It's not that you get the perfect gift or the perfect engagement ring or whatever it is, it's what lights you up.
• 31:16
  Mary: And do you find, can you find someone that complements that?
• 31:22
  Leah: Yes.
• 31:22
  Mary: That you show up fully formed.
• 31:24
  Mary: You know, we think of being with someone as a puzzle piece.
• 31:28
  Mary: Well, with a puzzle piece, there's always something missing.
• 31:30
  Leah: Yeah.
• 31:31
  Mary: So I think being able to show up as your full self and then you become a Venn diagram, two full circles that overlap.
• 31:39
  Leah: Absolutely.
• 31:40
  Leah: Yeah.
• 31:40
  Leah: I mean, we're we're kind of fed this narrative even from a young, a young age.
• 31:44
  Leah: I mean, we watch Disney movies, and you know, the prince is always the one rescuing the princess, or you know, Jerry Maguire, you complete me.
• 31:51
  Leah: You know, it's really toxic.
• 31:53
  Leah: It's actually not realistic or true or healthy.
• 31:57
  Leah: The the formula for a healthy long-term relationship is when two healthy, whole, happy individuals come together, right?
• 32:07
  Leah: And then they can live their lives in alignment.
• 32:09
  Leah: It's not someone uh trying to fix the other person.
• 32:13
  Leah: It's not someone um getting with someone based off of uh potential and hope, right?
• 32:19
  Leah: We're not, you know, dating apps are not Pinterest.
• 32:22
  Leah: We're not looking for like DIY projects.
• 32:24
  Leah: It's like I'm happy and healthy and I can hold myself accountable and take responsibility for things.
• 32:29
  Leah: You're happy and healthy, you can hold yourself accountable, take responsibility for things.
• 32:33
  Leah: And then when we come together, we make a good team.
• 32:36
  Mary: Yes.
• 32:37
  Leah: Yes.
• 32:37
  Mary: Okay, so let me give you a little situation because one of the things I've heard in my career the most from women coming out of bad relationships, bad marriages, they're terrified that they're gonna repeat the pattern.
• 32:51
  Mary: So how do you start with that?
• 32:54
  Mary: What do you what do you work with on women to not only give them the confidence, but to help them step out of the pattern and see what else is possible?
• 33:04
  Leah: Well, when you're in an unhealthy relationship, there are always things that um you are either doing or not doing that is uh part of the problem.
• 33:15
  Leah: Not to say it's your fault, but if you're not setting and enforcing boundaries, or if you didn't trust your gut when you saw or heard something and you just brushed it off and decided to just keep moving forward.
• 33:30
  Leah: Um you weren't advocating for yourself or speaking up.
• 33:33
  Leah: You weren't um acting as your full self, right?
• 33:37
  Leah: You were trying trying to just be what you thought they needed, um, or you're excusing thing, you're making excuses for bad behavior, right?
• 33:46
  Leah: There's all these kind of signs and things.
• 33:48
  Leah: So again, that when you can self-reflect and not blame yourself or point the finger at yourself, but but look at it and go, okay, what role did I play?
• 33:57
  Leah: What things did I do that I know I'm not gonna do again?
• 34:01
  Leah: Or what kind of red flags did I miss?
• 34:04
  Leah: And what things, what boundaries was I not setting?
• 34:07
  Leah: That is your key to then not doing the same thing again.
• 34:11
  Leah: So um you can learn so much from a toxic relationship.
• 34:15
  Leah: And if you if you do that and you can reflect and observe, then you have all of this information now that you didn't have before that you can bring with you moving forward.
• 34:26
  Leah: And then you can spot those red flags from a mile away.
• 34:30
  Leah: And when you see kind of repeated behavior or lies or um issues with communication, now you know, okay, I'm not gonna make excuses for this.
• 34:41
  Leah: I'm not gonna force this to work.
• 34:43
  Leah: I know what happens when uh we can't um disagree in a healthy way, right?
• 34:51
  Leah: I know what happens when someone is uh accusing me of things that I didn't do.
• 34:56
  Leah: I know what happens when someone doesn't trust me or tries to control me in these ways.
• 35:01
  Leah: So when this starts to come up again in other relationships, I already know how that story plays out and I'm not going to fall for it and I'm going to just tap out and I'm gonna keep on moving.
• 35:13
  Leah: So it's really just reflecting on what worked and what didn't and what you want to do differently in this relationship or your past one, so that you then have that wisdom to look at new relationships in a completely different way.
• 35:26
  Leah: And then you'll choose partners differently because of that.
• 35:29
  Mary: I think we feel it too.
• 35:30
  Mary: I think in our bodies, we recognize that those things are not okay, but we've been so socialized to think that we are supposed to bend and, you know, be malleable and maybe he just had a bad day.
• 35:46
  Mary: I feel like we have been put, women have typically been given sort of the role of being the one that works it out, being the one that gives in.
• 35:56
  Mary: I think of it like it's a different for everyone, but that somatic part of it where either our chest tightens or our stomach tightens or we start to feel like icky, but we talk ourselves out of it.
• 36:09
  Leah: Yeah.
• 36:10
  Mary: And if we would just trust that instinct, it is almost always right.
• 36:16
  Leah: Yes.
• 36:16
  Leah: And that takes practice and it takes uh patience, um, especially if you were with someone who always made you second guess yourself because they would manipulate you or gaslight you.
• 36:27
  Leah: Um, and so you're kind of questioning your own reality.
• 36:30
  Leah: And so it does take time to get to that place where you can trust yourself again.
• 36:34
  Leah: Um, but yes, that is huge.
• 36:36
  Leah: And I I've learned to it, it's taken me years to get to that point personally, but now I do it even for the littlest things.
• 36:44
  Leah: If I get just this little voice in my head that says, um, you know, oh, make a make a right on this street instead of going straight.
• 36:52
  Leah: Yeah, I don't even question myself anymore.
• 36:54
  Leah: I just do it.
• 36:54
  Leah: I don't try to analyze it.
• 36:55
  Leah: I don't try to make sense, you know, I just kind of trust that instinct and that intuition.
• 36:59
  Leah: Um, but also going back to what we said on learning how to enjoy your own company and learning to just be with yourself, that also helps you connect with yourself again, your intuition, that inner voice when you can just spend time alone without distracting yourself, without reaching for the booze or without uh, you know, scrolling on your phone constantly or constantly having something going on.
• 37:24
  Leah: Can you just sit with yourself for a few minutes and just breathe and just exist?
• 37:30
  Leah: Can you just go on a walk yourself, right?
• 37:33
  Leah: Can you do things that are just with you and learn to enjoy your own company?
• 37:37
  Leah: And when you do that, that helps you quiet all that other outside noise and really connect with yourself so that you can feel strong in your conviction.
• 37:46
  Leah: And even when other people don't agree with or understand your choices, it won't sway you because you know you better than anyone.
• 37:55
  Mary: Yes.
• 37:56
  Mary: And that ability to be still is so difficult because it's uncomfortable.
• 38:02
  Mary: So if we can be curious about that, like I really am feeling like like I want to rich around and I'm I'm I want to just get on this dating app or I want to go do this thing.
• 38:12
  Mary: If we can just allow it to exist, like just let that restlessness be there because you gotta retrain your brain to just be in that stillness and yeah, and figure out what do I want to do?
• 38:27
  Mary: So that brings me to my next question, Leah.
• 38:30
  Mary: The theme of guilt, that women, when they make a decision based on what is best for them, especially when there are kids involved, I think one of the hugest emotions is guilt.
• 38:43
  Mary: How do you help people navigate that?
• 38:46
  Leah: So I think one of the most powerful questions you can ask yourself as a mom, if you're dealing with that mom guilt, is if my kids were in that situation, what would I want them to do?
• 38:59
  Leah: Because I'm telling you 100% of the time, the answer is not.
• 39:03
  Leah: I would tell them to suck it up and deal with it.
• 39:06
  Leah: You know, that's not you would say, no, get out, come sleep on my couch.
• 39:10
  Leah: I've got a guest room.
• 39:11
  Leah: How can I help?
• 39:11
  Leah: Right.
• 39:12
  Leah: You wouldn't want your kids to go through it.
• 39:14
  Leah: So you've got to lead from the front and do the same, right?
• 39:18
  Leah: And so it's really just a perspective shift is what when you think you are doing what's best for your kids, um, it's it's not always what's best, right?
• 39:29
  Leah: We we're told to just stick it out and deal with it and marriage is forever and you know, stay for the kids.
• 39:35
  Leah: But at the end of the day, what are you teaching them by staying in a relationship that's not serving either one of you, right?
• 39:42
  Leah: You owe your kids to set a good example.
• 39:46
  Leah: And if showing them what a healthy relationship is is not an option, then show them it's okay to walk away from situations that aren't good for them.
• 39:58
  Leah: Show them what it's like to choose yourself and to put yourself first, right?
• 40:02
  Leah: Would you want your kids to sacrifice their own health and well-being just for the sake of uh staying in a relationship because they promised somebody that they would?
• 40:12
  Leah: You wouldn't.
• 40:13
  Leah: You would never, you would never want that for them.
• 40:15
  Leah: And so do that for yourself too.
• 40:17
  Leah: Sometimes those hard choices are what empowers our kids the most because you're teaching them how to cope with adversity, right?
• 40:25
  Leah: Don't avoid the hard things, go through them and then pass those tools along to your kids.
• 40:30
  Leah: This was really hard.
• 40:32
  Leah: I'm really stressed.
• 40:33
  Leah: I have a lot of anger I'm dealing with, I'm really sad today.
• 40:36
  Leah: But here's what I'm gonna do to get through it.
• 40:38
  Leah: I'm gonna journal, I'm gonna call a friend, I'm gonna go for a walk, I have a therapy session, I'm gonna talk about it, I'm gonna listen to some music and I'm gonna dance it out.
• 40:45
  Leah: What tools, what are you doing to cope with the adversity?
• 40:49
  Leah: That is more powerful to pass on to your kids than living a lie.
• 40:56
  Mary: Yeah.
• 40:56
  Mary: And I think we can convince ourselves that they don't really notice.
• 41:00
  Mary: And I'll tell you right now.
• 41:02
  Mary: They do.
• 41:03
  Mary: They do notice.
• 41:04
  Mary: They do.
• 41:05
  Leah: I've got clients who have their who have had their own kids beg them to get a divorce.
• 41:09
  Leah: Yeah.
• 41:10
  Mary: Yeah.
• 41:11
  Mary: And and maybe that's a way of letting fear win because we can convince ourselves, well, it would be worse for the kids, instead of just looking at it like they're seeing this.
• 41:21
  Mary: And so you're either setting example for a son that, you know, this behavior from the father, or and it doesn't have to be even abuse.
• 41:30
  Mary: It can just be that this is not fulfilling for me.
• 41:33
  Mary: Yeah.
• 41:33
  Mary: It's not my best life.
• 41:34
  Mary: And I think especially for a daughter, she's watching you.
• 41:38
  Mary: Oh, yeah.
• 41:38
  Mary: And so I think that ability to be strong and be honest and say, like when you make a decision to spend your life with somebody, you have the information you have at the time.
• 41:52
  Leah: Right.
• 41:52
  Mary: And we have this idea that a marriage vow should be forever.
• 41:56
  Mary: And if it isn't, you failed.
• 41:58
  Mary: And that's not how humans work.
• 42:01
  Mary: Right.
• 42:01
  Mary: We we evolve.
• 42:02
  Mary: And so I think normalizing that for children, and like I love how you're saying, like, observe to them, like I'm having a hard day, or just keep the communication open.
• 42:12
  Mary: What is it like for you for us to be separate from dad now or to be going back and forth between these homes?
• 42:20
  Mary: I think we are so afraid to have the conversation sometimes with kids that then we're teaching them this is not okay to talk about because I'm gonna upset someone.
• 42:30
  Leah: Right.
• 42:30
  Leah: Yes.
• 42:31
  Leah: I mean, you kids learn from watching you, not just from listening to what you're saying, but they watch what you're doing, right?
• 42:39
  Leah: And so that that's what you have to remember.
• 42:42
  Leah: Um, and even though you think you're doing a great job faking it, they know.
• 42:47
  Leah: They they sense it.
• 42:49
  Leah: And when you are doing things that are aligned with really your your true authentic self or who you really want to be, it makes a huge difference.
• 42:59
  Leah: I mean, I can tell you this even from personal experience, not just from the hundreds of women that I've worked with.
• 43:04
  Leah: My daughter gets an extremely different version of me now than she did when I was in my marriage.
• 43:13
  Leah: I was not showing up as the version of a mom that I wanted to be.
• 43:17
  Leah: I couldn't, I didn't have the capacity to do that.
• 43:19
  Leah: But because I was brave enough to walk away, regardless of everything that comes with that, the the judgment and the fear and the financial stress and and all of it.
• 43:33
  Leah: Now, because I did make that choice and I did put that work into myself, she gets the best version of me.
• 43:40
  Leah: I get to show up as the best version of myself for my daughter.
• 43:45
  Leah: And I'm so grateful for that every day that I walked away from the thing that wasn't serving me because I know now I can serve her a hundred times better.
• 43:56
  Mary: Yeah, I love that.
• 43:58
  Mary: Well, what a great conversation.
• 44:00
  Mary: You do really important work.
• 44:02
  Mary: So could you share a little bit about what you offer in your work?
• 44:06
  Mary: What is it like to work with you and where people can find you?
• 44:09
  Mary: And then I'll link it all in our show notes.
• 44:11
  Leah: Yes.
• 44:12
  Leah: So you can find me.
• 44:13
  Leah: I'm on all the socials.
• 44:14
  Leah: My handle is at mindfully ready, or you can go to mindfullyready.com.
• 44:20
  Leah: Uh, I have digital resources, one-on-one coaching, uh, free support groups, and also uh online courses and a private membership uh for moms that supports them through high conflict divorce and co-parenting.
• 44:31
  Leah: So wherever you're at, whatever you need, um I've I've got something to help you on your journey.
• 44:36
  Mary: So important.
• 44:37
  Mary: Because I also think people can feel really alone, like no one else is going through this, even though you know it, you're like we mentioned about social media, you don't see it.
• 44:46
  Mary: You think, oh, they got divorced, but look, it all went fine and everybody's happy.
• 44:50
  Mary: And that's rarely the case.
• 44:52
  Leah: Yes.
• 44:52
  Leah: Uh divorce is very isolating.
• 44:55
  Leah: Um, you know, even when someone in your life um has gone through it, the chances of them having the same experience are rare, right?
• 45:03
  Leah: And so it really is unique to you.
• 45:05
  Leah: So it is important to connect with people um who have the tools and who can guide you and support you so that you can make it to the other side uh with a lot more confidence and clarity instead of uh learning everything the hard way.
• 45:17
  Mary: Yeah.
• 45:18
  Mary: And one more thing that occurred to me that I want to mention, I think having that open, honest conversation with kids is important because they can also often think, is it because I got bad grades or is am I stressing my parents to the point they're gonna get a divorce?
• 45:34
  Mary: You know, kids, they look at what's happening and they often think, I wonder if this is this is because of me, or or I have to do something with this.
• 45:44
  Mary: And so I think that's another reason it's important to have those conversations to normalize that sometimes adults make a decision and they can still, you know, care about each other even and not decide not to be together, but they love their children and that's not what it's about.
• 46:01
  Leah: Absolutely.
• 46:02
  Mary: Yeah.
• 46:02
  Mary: Well, thank you so much for being here.
• 46:05
  Mary: What a great conversation.
• 46:06
  Mary: Thank you for having me.
• 46:07
  Mary: You're welcome.
• 46:08
  Mary: And thanks to everyone for listening.
• 46:11
  Mary: Would you love to find out how to connect to your true inner nature and use that knowledge to live a more fulfilled and dare I say fun life?
• 46:19
  Mary: Click the link at the bottom of the show notes, maryrothwell.net forward slash nature knows, to get onto my exclusive launch team with early access to my book at cost, so you can read and give me an honest review.
• 46:32
  Mary: You'll also get fun freebies and a chance to vote for the cover design.
• 46:36
  Mary: Fun fact, my sister is designing one of the covers.
• 46:39
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.