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Trust Equals Effective Leadership with Kemi Ogunkoya · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Hi, everyone.
• 0:36
  It's, Roxanne Dora Hunch with Authentic Living with Roxanne.
• 0:39
  Today, I have a special guest, Kim, Kemi Ongok Koya, and, she is coming to us all the way from
• 0:47
  Nigeria today.
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  So, Kimmy, thanks for coming back.
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  Actually, Kimmy and I I recently did her YouTube, at where she interviewed me on
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  leadership.
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  And, we actually, recorded hers there was a bit of a glitch.
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  So we're getting the option to do it yet again, which is, which is, I'm so glad that Kimmy
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  could do that again today.
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  Kimmy, thanks so much for coming back.
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  Thank you.
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  It's my absolute pleasure.
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  So is a leadership, expert she works with, leaders and, and she's done a lot of work,
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  Internationally, in North America, in Europe, and in Africa, and Asia as well.
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  So we're gonna talk a lot today just about, She has a model that she's developed around
• 1:38
  leadership, but we're gonna talk a little bit about that and kind of what she's seeing out
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  there today in the world of leadership.
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  So, Kimmy, so tell us a little bit about what made you did you always wanna work with
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  leaders, or how did you kind of what was your path?
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  To deciding that you wanted to work with leaders.
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  Alright.
• 2:00
  So thank you again for being, oh, for having me on the show.
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  I'm right.
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  So, well, I didn't start out working to work leaders directly.
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  I started out working, during, you know, business consulting.
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  And in some way, we were working with leaders.
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  However, I realized that in a lot of times, you know, we go on to present very wonderful
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  implementation documents for organizations and yet somehow somewhere, you know, Eagles.
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  I just find a way of doing that right out of the door.
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  And then I realized that, you know what?
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  We do not have shortage of you know, strategy.
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  We do not have shortage of ideas.
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  But then we do have a leadership deficit.
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  And until we're able to deal with the leadership deficits effectively, you know, not
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  so much is gonna change in terms of how businesses have been run.
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  And then I decided to start focusing on leaders with an organization to ensure that they have
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  the right mindset and, you know, beyond just having people occupy certain positions of
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  leadership, because it seems like they are a fit rather get into that point where we can
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  actually develop people to become great leaders and it very you know, just find a way of
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  narrowing that leadership gap and that leadership deficit.
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  And, you know, over the years, I have been able to work with leaders all over the world.
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  To ensure that they're able to develop the right competence for their leadership roles and
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  actually let the organization grip.
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  So there are definite I would say there's definitely, for leaders to to move along and to
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  move up the ranks.
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  They have to have a certain capacity to be able to lead.
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  But when they get to a point where they get blocked, What do you find are some of the core
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  fundamental things, that might stand in a way, in the way of a leader increasing their
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  capacity to lead more effectively when they hit, you know, a certain level of management.
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  Yeah.
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  So, you know, so if we look at the management metrics, for example, you know, when a leader
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  gets into the working environment, you know, be corporate or otherwise.
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  At that point, it seems like they need more technical skills.
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  Right?
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  And then as they continue to ascend the ladder, get into about lead management, then there is
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  more requirement for the, you know, human skills, and then they're able to have some
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  level of technical skills.
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  And then conceptual skills is also gonna be required.
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  But then as leaders continue to progress, there seems to be more reliance on their human skills
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  and then, you know, also written lands on their conceptual schemes.
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  Now I I've worked with a lot of leaders, and I realized that as We just go off the rack.
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  You know, there seems to be, a struggle as to where exactly they need to pay the attention
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  you know, but then if leaders are able to focus more on the human skills and then the
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  conceptual skills, it would help them understand exactly what the business needs of
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  every point in time.
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  So I say that leaders, you know, need to really get to that point of understanding when to be
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  on the down floor and then when to be on the balcony.
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  Which means that at a particular point, they need to start focusing more on strategy than
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  being buried in the operational running of the organization.
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  So when leaders get to that point where they constantly find themselves troubling, or, you
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  know, just been into all the operations, then it's, at that point, they know that they really
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  did some form of intervention.
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  An intervention could come in different forms.
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  You know?
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  Finding intervention in terms of having a credible team, you know, to work with where you
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  know that people when you are dropping the ball, you have competent hands, you know, to
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  lead you on, to guide you, and then to hold your accountable So I say that when leaders are
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  at that point where they are struggling, you know, it's important for them to revisit to
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  review and then do what exactly it it requires for them to get back on track.
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  So I would say that a certain level of competence is a given at any given point.
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  However, let's talk about the difference do the dance floor and the balcony because I'm I'm I'm
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  interested in that concept.
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  So do you find that most leaders recognize when they're getting stuck?
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  It's no longer It's not a lot longer about strategy, but it's it's something to do with
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  the human element, which I would say, I I'm gonna assume that's where balcony is.
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  Is that am I correct in that learning when to lay back kind of, you know, sit on the
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  periphery and let others do the dancing.
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  Is that is that my understanding of your analogy there, Kimmy?
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  Okay.
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  So so so with the dancing and with the danceful and the balcony.
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  You know, it's pretty much, so as leaders, at some point, you're really hands on, right,
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  you're really hands on.
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  But then what we realized is that a lot of times a lot of leaders get to or get stuck
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  working in the business and then lose sight of walking on the business.
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  So walking at the business is you've been on the dance floor where you are, you know, and
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  just if you can imagine being on the dance for all the activities are going on right around
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  you.
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  You know, there's so much pause and then, there's a limit to the view that you would have
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  or pretty much have in that area of view when you're on the dance floor.
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  Okay?
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  So that's where all the operations and, you know, all the bustling and all of that goes on.
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  But then being on the balcony gives you a more strategic you.
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  So you pretty much have the red eye view where you can see things from different perspective.
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  So you're on the dance floor And then, you know, everything just seems to be all around
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  you.
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  You can cut me, you know, see what's going on feeds away.
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  But then from the balcony, you're able to assess exactly what the happy.
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  So imagine that you have a stand where, you know, there's a band when you have a stage.
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  You just have a better view and then you're able to takes certain decisions based on that.
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  So for a lot of leaders, they get stuck working in the business, you know, rather than working
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  on the business for great leadership An expected leadership is about understanding when
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  to be on the dance floor because as leaders, we have to get our hands dirty and then to
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  understand when beyond the balconies, but you can be in that phase of strategy, or to make
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  better and strategic decisions from that's, you know, standpoint.
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  So when is it that you find leaders?
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  Let's say, do you find that most leaders have that skill to recognize this versus working in
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  in the business versus on the business.
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  Right?
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  So higher level strategic thinkers are able to recognize I need to demonstrate competence and
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  capacity in my skill, but I have to know when to back off.
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  Do you find that with the leadership teams that you work with, Kimmy, are most people able to
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  recognize that I'm kind of we call it being stuck in the weeds, right?
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  You're you're on It's a set kinda same as being in the dance floor, but there's some people
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  that really kinda like that.
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  Right?
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  They feel alive.
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  They feel energized because they're in there and they're getting their hands dirty.
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  And how difficult is it do you find that people that are really like that part of the business
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  to take that step up strategically.
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  Okay.
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  So a very great question with that.
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  So what, you know, I I work with them lot of videos.
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  And I realized that just like you have rightly said, you know, there's there's a level of
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  adrenaline that just comes on the dance floor.
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  Right?
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  You're so overwhelmed and then you're so swumballed with all the activity.
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  However, it takes a level of awareness you know, and a level of, competence for leaders to
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  get to that point where finally they enjoy being in you know, the business, but then they
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  understand that being in the business for too long would actually be affecting, you know, the
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  results that they're able to achieve on the business.
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  So as key leaders within the organization, if you're not focusing on strategy, if you're not
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  focusing on being at the vantage point where you are able have that overview of the
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  organization and make key decisions that you, you know, you just have the quotes been stunted
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  in one way or the other.
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  So I find that a lot of media struggle, you know, to to accept that that that they need to
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  step out of the doubt.
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  So I think it's more from that place of awareness rather than from the place of
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  competence.
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  So, yes, they know what to do.
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  But then, you know, in this We just feel that, you know, what the business needs more of me on
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  the inside.
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  And and I'm not gonna realize is that for a lot of leaders who haven't been able to gain a
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  level of confidence in their team where there's a low level of trust in such or on such teams
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  you find out that the leaders feel, that they always have to be on the dance floor.
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  Okay.
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  So what do leaders get to that point compet where they invest more in building their team
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  and then, you know, the mono focus on elements like trust, you know, and developing competence
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  of their team members that they would always find themselves having to build the dance floor
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  to make up, for whatever lapses within the organization or them?
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  So trust is really, the core fundamental that obviously teams need.
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  So what you're saying is that sometimes leaders feel like they need to microscopically be
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  involved when there's a variation of trust, but I'm gonna assume on the conscious side of that,
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  Kimmy, that when you have trust, there's a there's an innate relaxation within the leader
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  to say my team has capacity.
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  Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  So, you know, there's so many elements that would help develop that level of trust within a
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  leader and competence definitely is one of one of those key skills.
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  But like I say that, you know, when leaders leave, you know, contents to just their
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  employees or their constituents to develop on their own without really investing in their
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  journey of good, that they would always find themselves in that situation where they have to
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  work longer on the business and then they have to work harder on the business.
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  So, yes, competence to a great extent will help, you know, develop some level of trust, in
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  the capacity of of the employees or the constituents as the kids may be.
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  However, is it for an not vertically, you know, just just come on its own.
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  So let's let's talk a little bit about trust.
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  And and and I know you have a model, Kimmy, that you developed, and I'd like you to, tell
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  us a little bit about about the model and how within that model, where is is trust kind of
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  woven through?
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  Is it that the the levels of the model get to a point where a leaders develop their capacity to
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  function in inadvertently, it creates trust, or is it that they're working through trust all
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  the way along in your model?
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  You know, the model is called the Dozen model.
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  And it's a leadership framework that I developed.
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  After years of working with a number of meters across, you know, different industries,
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  different continents and you know, different organizations.
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  And we realize that there are 12 key factors that leaders, or 12 key elements that leaders
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  need to leverage on to, you know, attend attend that level of effectiveness as leaders and, you
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  know, there's clarity, there's communication, there's competence, there's, you know,
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  connection, there's, you know, community and, you know, looking at each of these elements,
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  each of them rely heavily long Right?
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  So when we talk about clarity within the organization, for example, we're not just
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  talking about clarity as they affect the leader.
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  Not just the leader has to declare on what the organization wants to achieve.
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  However, the leader you know, from that level of clarity that he or she has about the
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  business of the organization, the values, the mission, and all of that is able to clearly, be
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  able to also, you know, release of level of clarity to their constituents.
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  So that will also heavily depend on level of trust within the organization because, you
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  know, Anita needs to be able to trust you to a grip extent for them to believe in your vision
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  of the future.
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  Right?
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  So let's look at communication, which is also another key element of the model.
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  And when it comes to communication, there is a level of trust that is required for me to
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  believe exactly what you have said, you know, for me to have that level of comfort with what
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  you have said to me as a leader.
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  So I want to believe, you know, that the vision of the future that you have printed something
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  that is real and then it's something that is attainable.
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  I wanna believe, you know, they they, manner with which you're able to relay your message
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  that there's some level of around that.
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  So you see that even communication is heavily reliant on trust.
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  Now, connection, right, which is another element of the modem.
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  You know, it's it's a no brainer.
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  There's no connection without trust.
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  Okay.
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  So that's also heavily, dependent on trust.
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  Another key element of the model is community.
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  Right?
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  And I I believe that as leaders, we need to be able to build a community of other leaders by
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  cannot be investing, you know, in their goals and also their development.
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  And for that to happen, there has to be a level of trust Right?
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  And, another key element is consequence, for example.
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  Right?
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  I need to trust that my my leader, for example, is gonna be held accountable for their actions
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  and their inaction.
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  And for me to be able to collectively live what you are saying as a leader, I need to know and
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  trust you that you would hold yourself accountable for your actions and inaction and
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  then other people within the organization or within whatever system will also be held
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  accountable.
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  So for every element of the model, you know, we cannot separate the importance of trust.
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  And that's why we see a lot of organization, the struggle you know, to be able to achieve
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  quick level of results, when there's no trust.
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  So trust is a key element of leadership.
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  It's a key elements in in the dozen model, for example, and in its motors, you know, trust in
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  itself is not, an apparent you know, element of the model because all the models are all begin
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  with c, but then trust is infused in every element of the model.
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  So I would say that, you know, let me let me play Dell's advocate for a second.
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  There have been some companies that have been successful and at maybe the level of trust is
• 18:00
  not a pinnacle.
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  So, you know, some of my people might say, well, you know, what about I can't think of a
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  particular, you know, company right now.
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  Maybe you can think of one where they actually still achieved, but there was still a level of
• 18:13
  uncertainty a lack of capacity to trust openly, but they still continue to perform very well.
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  So what do you say to people that might come to you and say, Why is trust that important?
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  You know, I have this example, of this company here, x company X that still seems to to do
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  well quarter by quarter or year over year.
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  And they they don't seem to be, you know, having a an optimal level of trust.
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  Alright.
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  So definitely you would have, you know, sort of organizations to point out fingers at to say,
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  oh, you know what?
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  So why do I why do I need to worry about trust?
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  But, you know, when you look beyond what you have on on the surface.
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  Right?
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  What is the level of engagement that the employees have towards Deborah?
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  Okay.
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  Because sometimes I say that there's a lot of cost, for ineffective leadership and sometimes
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  this cost we may not be able to measure it directly, but then it doesn't mean that this
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  course do not exist.
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  So, yes, you know, trust, for example, based on research has been linked to high level of
• 19:26
  employee engagement, you know, have been in regularly to, organizational result.
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  So we cannot really separate it.
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  So, yes, it may seem like we're winning, but then I bet that, you know, there's certain
• 19:39
  elements of a business that is cracking and then is crumbling on the inside.
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  And it's just a matter of time for the owners to get to deal exactly with that because when
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  the employees are not as loyal, you know, or they're not as engaged, or, you know, they
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  don't just trust their their their, you know, their superiors or then their their leaders
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  within the organization.
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  It affects how they work.
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  You know, it affects the level of productivity.
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  And sometimes we may not be able to, you know, measure all of this you know, just just a
• 20:14
  straightforward, but then it does in the long run, you know, affect it.
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  And and something like I can just think of as an analogy for this is, you know, imagine that
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  you're sweeping, and then you just finally, we have always putting the dust under the carpet.
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  Right?
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  It's just the matter of time.
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  Okay?
• 20:34
  But the rope is not just still perfect me on the floor anymore.
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  So for sort organization, yes, it may seem like we're winning because there are other metrics
• 20:43
  that may be involved.
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  So say, for example, you know, you you you you may be paying high, you know, and and then
• 20:51
  doing very well, in terms of remuneration, but then eight He isn't enough.
• 20:56
  And then it's also important to understand that the workforce is changing now, you know, and
• 21:01
  then the demands of the workforce is also changing.
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  So we have a workforce who is more into purpose.
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  There's more into flexibility and then more into culture.
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  Right?
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  So things are absolutely changing.
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  And then, you know, the demands of the workforce will also find a way, of expressing
• 21:20
  itself in house organizations have been enrolled.
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  So now that we're opening up, you know, the world economy is starting to open up.
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  What are some of the things that, companies have to think about in reference to culture now
• 21:39
  that we've kind of gone through this uncertainty and what are some of the core
• 21:43
  things that people need to think about in because I I mean, you know, the world has been
• 21:48
  in fear, and employees have been kind of been through a lot of trauma, I would say.
• 21:53
  So What would be some of the pieces of advice or things that you would suggest leadership or
• 21:59
  leaders think about now that we're opening up and people are returning to work in some kind
• 22:04
  of form, some kind of semblance with its inks asynchronous in person or virtual.
• 22:10
  I'll I'll start by saying that it's a problem that organizations accept the fact that the
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  same Employees who left the organization, you know, before, the lockdown are not the same
• 22:23
  people who are returning.
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  Right.
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  And just like you have, right, he said, it will have to deal with quite a lot before we had to
• 22:30
  deal with, you know, loss, you know, illness using a loved one, grief and and, you know,
• 22:37
  just trying to get their mental health and office of stability.
• 22:41
  So do not assume that the same guys who left the office of the same guys who will be
• 22:47
  returning.
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  So organizations need to ensure that, there's a safe place for people when they return to work.
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  Okay?
• 22:55
  Estates where people, will be able to talk about some of the personnel challenges that
• 23:01
  they deal with and and without without feeling judged about it.
• 23:05
  So the truth is that, you know, we haven't exhausted just how people you know, are
• 23:11
  responding to the aftermath of this of this pandemic just yet.
• 23:15
  Okay.
• 23:15
  So it's important that organizations are able to develop great level of competence within
• 23:21
  their HR, for example, to ensure that when people come back, that the level of support for
• 23:26
  them.
• 23:27
  Okay?
• 23:27
  It's also important that, you know, organizations pay attention to flexibility and
• 23:33
  and just like I mentioned earlier that, you know, we we did a we did a survey, we did some
• 23:39
  of the organizations that work with.
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  And then we realize that what organization or what, you know, a lot of business leaders are
• 23:46
  looking for include flexibility.
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  Right?
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  They're also thinking about, culture, and then they're thinking about purpose.
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  So organizations need to be able to prove themselves that they also care about these
• 23:59
  areas, you know, and are also able to put their best, support.
• 24:04
  I think it's also important to you know, and ensure that beyond having people come to the
• 24:11
  office for, you know, long hours, we're able to see exactly how we can to create a hybrid, you
• 24:17
  know, environment where people can not only work from home but then they can also feel free
• 24:23
  to come to work.
• 24:24
  You know, because I think that one after that or this whole pandemic is that we really don't
• 24:30
  know the long term effects of the total separation from the workplace.
• 24:34
  You know, I think that people need to still be able to connect with each other.
• 24:38
  I think that people still need to be able to find a place where they can share ideas where,
• 24:42
  you know, we do not totally let go of elements of mentorship, for example, you know, peer
• 24:48
  lending within the organization because we have to work from both extensively.
• 24:53
  So the organizations need to ensure that, you know, we do not totally lose out on all this,
• 24:59
  you know, learning learning moments at work, in the video, trying to say, you know, let's just
• 25:05
  go adopting a full work from home since it's working, and then people are as productive as
• 25:12
  ever.
• 25:12
  So those are some of the three key things about, I will talk about, and and probably I
• 25:16
  add this, right, that leaders within the organization also need to become more flexible
• 25:22
  you know, India's thinking of what is acceptable and then what is not acceptable
• 25:27
  within the workplace.
• 25:28
  So I I I think that would also be a long
• 25:31
  So we, you know, we always talk about, employees returning, but what about leaders?
• 25:38
  What is it that they need?
• 25:40
  You know, as they, you know, we they have had to be strong ones and the transparent ones and
• 25:48
  the available ones and the connected ones in order to create the bridge for their employees.
• 25:53
  But what do what do leaders need and, you know, going back into that, like you said, this it's
• 25:59
  a bit of a at a bit of an abyss, really, because we really won't know the impact of the
• 26:04
  return to work.
• 26:06
  But what is it that you think leaders need most going back and trying to reintegrate things?
• 26:11
  Because they are the ones that need to stay strongest in order to support, their employees
• 26:16
  and then in in turn the culture.
• 26:18
  So so I I think that leaders need to not confused, been strong, you know, or or need to
• 26:27
  ensure that they don't confuse vulnerability or wanting to put on that face or or or being
• 26:32
  strong.
• 26:34
  So so I think leaders need to be at that point where they understand that they are also going
• 26:39
  to they are also going through a process, because they're human, you know, and and being
• 26:44
  being a leader doesn't mean that your your veins just suddenly freeze and then you don't
• 26:50
  feel anything anymore.
• 26:51
  So it's important that as we just return to the work history, come from that pace of, you know,
• 26:57
  being, being vulnerable about their own experience too so that you know, the
• 27:03
  constituents can understand, oh, you know what?
• 27:06
  I felt this.
• 27:06
  My leader also felt this and that that just gives me some comfort.
• 27:10
  So I think He doesn't have to come back to the workplace, not just as superheroes with Capes.
• 27:16
  They need to come back to help people understand that they have also gone through the
• 27:20
  process.
• 27:21
  And, you know, I I I strongly recommend that a a little bit is also assess some form of, you
• 27:28
  know, mental health support.
• 27:30
  Okay?
• 27:32
  And, you know, I remember having this conversation with a a top business a few weeks
• 27:36
  back, and he thought, you know what?
• 27:38
  I think I'm just fine.
• 27:39
  Right?
• 27:40
  I'm just fine.
• 27:41
  And then as we got on the conversation, he realized that he probably needed some some
• 27:46
  support you know, because the the in his models, he did not experience any form of
• 27:51
  direct trauma.
• 27:52
  He had, you know, employees within the organization who passed in the course of COVID,
• 27:57
  and he hadn't even dealt with that because he had to have that strong face, you know, and be
• 28:02
  the leader for everyone.
• 28:04
  And so, yes, pay attention to your mental health as a leader.
• 28:08
  Don't just assume that, you know, because you have been strong and then you have been
• 28:12
  thoughtful through this entire period, you know, it it just, has has absorbed you of the
• 28:19
  ability to feel the ability to, you know, be empathetic and all of that.
• 28:23
  So get some level of support, you know, mental health support as the case may be.
• 28:27
  But then how about the workplace thing been vulnerable, come back to the workplace, been
• 28:32
  open to learn, come back to the workplace, not being judgmental about people's experiences or
• 28:37
  exactly how they feel.
• 28:39
  And, you know, just You just don't lose a grief.
• 28:43
  Just be gentle and kind because it's it's it's quite the space, right, because you have to
• 28:49
  shovel between vulnerability and strength.
• 28:56
  Right?
• 28:56
  So Absolutely.
• 28:56
  And vacillating from those parts can be, can be can be difficult at times.
• 29:02
  So can we this has been fantastic.
• 29:04
  Thanks so much.
• 29:06
  For people, that are, you know, would want to speak to you or or find out more about, you
• 29:12
  know, or your capacity to work with them and they're open their organizations.
• 29:16
  Tell them a little bit about where they can reach you so that they can reach out if they'd
• 29:20
  like to connect with you.
• 29:24
  And, it's Kimmy.
• 29:26
  That's k e m I o g u n k o y a.
• 29:31
  So you can find me on LinkedIn.
• 29:33
  Send me a message, and then, you know, I'll respond.
• 29:36
  Or if you also go to my website, it's www.
• 29:40
  Kemi.com.
• 29:43
  I'm sure we can connect there.
• 29:46
  Thank you so much.
• 29:48
  So again, I guess what I'm walking around away from is, know when to step off the dance floor
• 29:57
  and, develop trust so that you can get to the balcony and let the others that you've employed
• 30:04
  demonstrate the capacity that you've instilled in them and and their capabilities, which
• 30:09
  obviously, you know, you recognize talent So let them follow through, but be there to
• 30:15
  support them when they needed most.
• 30:18
  So, again, thanks for tuning in.
• 30:20
  If you're needing, any information on authentic leadership.
• 30:24
  As you know, my book will be coming out soon.
• 30:27
  You can reach out to me so that we can talk a little bit more about authenticity as a leader
• 30:33
  and how it impacts your teams.
• 30:35
  So, again, thanks so much, Kimmy, and everyone take care, and we will happen to you soon.
• 30:40
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
• 30:46
  healthy change.
• 30:47
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne.
• 30:53
  Visit Roxanne Durgesh dotcom/blueprint.
• 30:57
  We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.