Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Director of Pedagogy: Peda... goo-goo? With Chief Absurdist Officer

Transcript

Director of Pedagogy: Peda... goo-goo? With Chief Absurdist Officer · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: So excited to have you
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: here, Kathi, joining Paul and I. and for those listening, Paul and I met
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Kathi through Substack.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: We are all Substackers and as anti-social medias I
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: am, I find this version of social media media to be the most tolerable
• 0:31
  because you get to meet amazing people like Paul and Kathi,
• 0:33
  and so very excited
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: to have you guesting with us.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to be reading through a job
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: posting that I found recently and then we are going to roast it together.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: We're
• 0:46
  going to talk about the good,
• 0:47
  the bad,
• 0:48
  and the ugly...
• 0:49
  and hopefully give some
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: advice for the job seekers and the job seeker seekers.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: I found this job
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: advice for the job seekers and the job seeker seekers.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: I found this job
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: with the help of AI.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: I was really struggling to find a job posting,
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to be in e-health or e-learning type, learning tech type,
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, situations.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Paul, I'm sorry.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: You have to edit that.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: or don't.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Or just $*&# leave it in.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Jen, this how I build the blooper reel for our Christmas special.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I couldn't find a job posting
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I couldn't find a job posting
• 1:32
  that I felt would be suitable maybe for your background and
• 1:35
  expertise,
• 1:36
  Kathi.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, "No, keep looking.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Keep looking."
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: and I found some
• 1:41
  that were pretty tame and I wanted something interesting and I
• 1:45
  didn't find
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: one, but ChatGPT helped me find a job posting that's no longer up.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so this
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: is what I found.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to go over the Roasty
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Profile.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to give you a little bit of the details about the job
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: posting itself and then we can get into it.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: The role is Director of Pedagogy.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, wait.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is that how you say it?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Pedagogy...go?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is it... it's not pedagogy.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Pedagogy maybe?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: See that word?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I am a university educated dude.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: and to make it even
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: better, I have a liberal arts education.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna need to hit the Google
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: right now and make sure I know what pedagogy.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Pedagogy?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: What did we settle
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: on?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Pedagogy.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: I actually don't know.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Pedagoo-goo.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: But like these are, there are certain words that I read them in
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: my head and they make sense.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know what it means, but I've never
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: said the word out.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: I have never had an opportunity in my life to say certain
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: words out loud.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of them.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: So what is the word?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So for the folks at home, the Google says that
• 2:58
  pedagogy means the method and practice of teaching,
• 3:02
  especially as an academic
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: subject or theoretical concept.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Example, the relationship between applied
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: linguistics and language pedagogy.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: But how do you say pedagoo-goo?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: I like pedagoo-goo so much.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to keep saying pedagoo-goo.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, the role the role is called Director of Pedagogy, e-Learning
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Instructional Design.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: So the Roasty Profile job title: Director of Pedagogy.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Instructional Design.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: So the Roasty Profile job title: Director of Pedagogy.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: I really hope I don't have to say this word anymore than than that.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: e-Learning Instructional Design, reports to title is unknown.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that means it's
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: not listed in the job posting.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Company size 51 to 200 employees.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Industry is
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: e-learning providers.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: And what do they do?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: They leverage advanced technology to
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: provide personalized industry-leading language learning ecosystems for K
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: through 12, higher education, and corporate environments.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Their head
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: office location is Toronto, Ontario.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: The job location is remote—Canada.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Their
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: geographical operating area is global and the job is full-time.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, I have to say it again.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Director of Pedagogy e-Learning
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Instructional Design.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: This is the setup of the actual job posting.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: to read verbatim.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just going to read some key points and we can get into
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: it.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: It starts with an about us section.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: The company combines over two decades of
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: language learning content with state-of-the-art technology.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: We strive
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: to enable educators in delivering personalized learning experiences in
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: blended classrooms and online.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: With offices located in both Canada and
• 4:45
  China,
• 4:45
  we offer a diverse selection of education programs and advanced
• 4:48
  learning
• 4:49
  methodology and content management systems for K through 12,
• 4:54
  higher education,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: and corporations.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Their mission is to build a multilingual world using the
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: best technologies and language learning methodologies.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's a little bit more
• 5:05
  in the about us section,
• 5:07
  but those are kind of the main points that I wanted to
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: bring up.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to go straight into primary
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: responsibilities.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: This not a long job posting whatsoever.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, primary
• 5:21
  responsibilities:
• 5:21
  product development,
• 5:23
  research needs,
• 5:24
  interview stakeholders,
• 5:26
  define vision and structure,
• 5:27
  and oversee the development,
• 5:29
  which is the design,
• 5:30
  content,
• 5:31
  definitions,
• 5:31
  and production of products for language learners of all
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: ages.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: curricula design and delivery, online and blended, EFL, ESL courses,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: professional development, and English for special purposes.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's a...
• 5:47
  ...just quickly for the folks at home,
• 5:49
  EFL is English as a first language,
• 5:51
  and
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: ESL is English as a second language.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Paul.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: there's a bullet point for project management, instructional design, and
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: then we go into training and management.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm going to stop there first
• 6:05
  because maybe we can dig into that first section of primary
• 6:08
  responsibilities,
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: the product development.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Was there anything there that stood out to anyone
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: on this call?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: Anything that's kind of standard or odd?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Red flags, green flags,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: beige flags?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm personally very curious, like, the big nerd in me kind of
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: wants to see their technical architecture and look
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: under the curtain a little bit.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because if this a learning management
• 6:33
  system provider that's been around for 20 something odd years
• 6:38
  that suggests to
• 6:39
  me that they might they might be running on like dot net or
• 6:43
  something like that...
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: which, modernizing those systems in a modern technical environment is
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: really quite challenging.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with a company not too long ago that
• 6:56
  they were trying to move away from from the dot net framework
• 6:59
  to something
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: that was a little bit more extensible and they had to
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: can it.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: They had to just, like, say "nope too complicated.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna work on
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: this legacy thing forever."
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really curious about that.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: that they'll say anything about that in the job ad.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also really
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: kind of seeing a bit of a familiar pattern so far, where there are some
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: things that you don't think would go together in the job ad being put
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: together.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hearing instructional designer, and I'm hearing project manager,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm hearing some other things that are like... this is all one role?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I'll
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: reserve judgment.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: What What do you think, Kathi?
• 7:44
  Yeah,
• 7:45
  I think I had the same cognitive dissonance when they described
• 7:50
  one of
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: the very first responsibilities as product development.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Pedagogy to me
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: is, you know, the curriculum and what you're teaching.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so
• 8:03
  I think on that topic in particular,
• 8:05
  it could either be a good or a bad thing
• 8:08
  because if you think of it as a product that you're delivering
• 8:10
  to the student,
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: maybe it creates this discipline to think about the student experience.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 8:17
  it's per...
• 8:18
  it could also be a bad thing because you're thinking of it as a
• 8:21
  product to deliver to something,
• 8:23
  not as as something for the student to learn.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Just... there was some cognitive dissonance there for me.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And to your
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: comment on this melding of instructional design and project management, I
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: think that's a really important pattern to notice because I see that
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: happening everywhere.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is becoming an age of corporations wanting
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: to hire 3-in-1 employees, 5-in-1 employees if they really can.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, customer
• 8:59
  support people have started becoming salespeople all of a
• 9:01
  sudden,
• 9:02
  you know,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: and so... that's already an indicator for me that they seem
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: to be going for a similar thing here.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Paul and I are seeing
• 9:13
  this more and more,
• 9:14
  where jobs are just,
• 9:15
  they're expecting you to wear so many
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: different hats and be responsible for so many different things.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: that's part of the reason why filling roles is taking so long too is that
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: everyone is looking for this unique individual who can do all of these
• 9:30
  things and they're forgetting that like really what is the
• 9:33
  primary focus of this
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: role?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need them to be exceptional at?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need them to
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: be really experienced at?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: because the rest maybe can be done by supporting
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: roles but people don't want to pay for those supporting roles.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: One
• 9:49
  important thing too that maybe I should have mentioned in the
• 9:51
  bullet point.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: It
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: says project management.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: It says coordinating with design, programming
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: and other functions of the organization.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's all it says.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't say like
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: doing what.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: It just says under project management, you're coordinating
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: with these different functions of the organization.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then under
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: instructional design, it says the ability to conceptualize, develop, and
• 10:15
  articulate vision for our programs,
• 10:17
  including product management,
• 10:19
  content,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: overseeing design, training, and materials development.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 10:25
  this where,
• 10:26
  and Jen,
• 10:27
  we talk about this...
• 10:28
  geez,
• 10:28
  I feel like we talk about
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: this almost every week.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is where getting a sense of the org structure
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: would be really, really valuable to somebody who's looking at this job ad
• 10:40
  right,
• 10:40
  because,
• 10:40
  like what we're talking about here it's Director of Pedagogy,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: e-Learning Instructional Design.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: The job ad though
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: is saying project manager plus kind of like the high-level director for
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: curriculum activities.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds a little bit weird
• 11:04
  on the face of it,
• 11:04
  but what if the org structure was such that there was a
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: business unit that was wholly responsible for developing curriculum?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: If that's the case, then as the director, you're just kind of giving
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: them the high level guidance and maybe that's okay.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that this is
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: still very weird framing for a job like this.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: If there's a dedicated business
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: unit for like the course design, I don't know... or design like an org
• 11:31
  structure chart or something,
• 11:31
  some sense of what the organization looks like...
• 11:35
  be
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: super valuable right now.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:39
  You'd be surprised though behind the scenes from my experience
• 11:42
  as a recruiter
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes when they say... it happens all the time, where a director
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: or a VP will say, "Oh, I need this job."
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: and they're thinking about this within
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: their own silo.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: They don't even think about who else in this organization
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: might actually be doing this job already.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I agree with you.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: think there should be a holistic, architectural approach to this, but it
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: happens way too often that jobs get posted out there that is because of a
• 12:14
  siloed request from somebody who doesn't know what's going on
• 12:15
  with the rest of
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: the organization.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is 100% accurate.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: That has happened
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: to me in my career so many times.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And like you said, who else has the
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: skill set that could be doing this?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Even like internal promotions, internal
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: mobility, not even a promotion, but a lateral move, like nobody's
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: looking holistically at the org.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so like what Paul touched on, what we've
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: noticed the more we dissect these job postings is that very rarely do
• 12:43
  companies,
• 12:43
  if ever,
• 12:44
  talk about reporting structure,
• 12:45
  like who are you reporting
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: to, what is a team size, anything like that.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: That would give the applicant
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: a really good idea of what life could be like at this organization.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: The other...
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: there's only one more section for primary responsibilities.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we had
• 13:02
  product development,
• 13:03
  which again,
• 13:03
  language is a little bit weird because it talks
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: about curriculum design, but you touched on that.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: So then we have
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: training and management.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Support sales by providing pedagogy...
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: rational... rational to prospective and existing
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: clients.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: This is just a reminder to everyone that I'm just reading it as
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: written.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I think they mean rationale.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: but it's not written as rationale,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: which is interesting because it is an e-learning job, but that's okay.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know, baby steps.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, support sales by providing rationale to prospective
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: and existing clients.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: Strong training, presentation and communication
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: skills.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Provide teacher and user training to clients.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Ability to work and
• 13:50
  adapt training and communications to larger organizations
• 13:53
  internationally,
• 13:54
  including ministries of education as well as smaller companies,
• 13:58
  and oversee a
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: team of content writers, local pedagogy support, and outsourced parties.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: sorry, I'm going to laugh every time I say that, because I feel so
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: self-conscious about that word.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Any thoughts on the training and management
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: section of the primary responsibilities?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: They just keep tacking things on.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's
• 14:19
  like this Lego job and then,
• 14:20
  oh yeah,
• 14:20
  and you're going to do this,
• 14:21
  and you're going
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: to do this too.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's like... okay you're going to be a teacher.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to
• 14:26
  create the curriculum,
• 14:27
  but you're also going to design the laptops and the
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: iPads that they're going to use and then you're going to work with the
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: salespeople who are selling those laptops.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Who... sign me up?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's this, also I love how you said,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: this is kind of a Lego job.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: let's just keep on stacking things on.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's,
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: it's a great description for what we've heard so far.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder how well the
• 14:55
  organization has even thought through what they need
• 14:59
  functionally,
• 15:00
  because this
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: is this kind of shaping up to be a little weird.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: that stood out for me, at least in what you just said was... you'll be
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: selling to ministries of education as well as the other customer groups.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like hang on a sec.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Selling into... the difference between consumer sales
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: and enterprise sales is pretty big already.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a wide gap
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: between those two types of organizations.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: But selling to
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: government, that's an entirely different beast.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is...
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: a *thing*.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to be able to also support sales activities and
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: presentations to government customers.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a dedicated person, right there.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like you... any organization that sells
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: to government customers, government clients, they have a dedicated
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: function to do that.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like a specific person usually supported by other people,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: because it is such a beast.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I could see this person kind of sitting in on
• 16:02
  sales calls to be,
• 16:04
  you know,
• 16:04
  like the higher up important person to kind of
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: make them feel good.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I could absolutely see that.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: But doing anything that is
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: kind of actually important and generating work output for that sales
• 16:16
  cycle,
• 16:17
  that's going to be a...
• 16:17
  that's going to be a huge ask with all these other
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: kind of things in the mix.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: I had initially
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: assumed they would be taking on a sales function as well, but I know that
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: in some technological kind of industries they have what they call
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: like a...
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blanking on the name.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this expert in the
• 16:44
  process,
• 16:44
  so that when a salesperson talks to an expert and they ask
• 16:48
  technical
• 16:49
  questions,
• 16:50
  then you have somebody there who can speak to it and perhaps
• 16:52
  maybe
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: that is what they mean about sitting in on those sales calls.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like in insurance particularly,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: typically when you're going into an enterprise and selling insurance
• 17:06
  technology solutions,
• 17:06
  you've got a sales engineer on the call all the time.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: A sales engineer.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's...
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: really interesting that there are just two sections for the primary
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: responsibilities.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, this is a really really short job posting.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: it
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: really doesn't have a lot to it.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is why I also like to know, is this a net
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: new role?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Is this a replacement role?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: That information is really helpful for
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: people.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would like to see the thinking behind the job.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: have to be a novella.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: It can be a couple of bullet points of... we
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: realized that due to the nature of blah blah blah, this a very high value
• 17:49
  role for the organization and this is why the role was
• 17:51
  developed or whatever.
• 17:54
  Like I...
• 17:54
  when the company I work for was recently hiring an ops
• 17:56
  coordinator,
• 17:57
  we
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: just had a little section that said net new role.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: Here's why we feel like we
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: need this role.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it automatically gives the candidate that opportunity
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: to tie their value to the role.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: They can see like immediately, okay, this is
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: how I'm adding value because it's so important to understand the role you
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: play in an organization.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: So just like a couple of bullet points, a couple of
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: sentences that explain that I think would be really helpful as well.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that net-new thing too,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: we were talking a couple of weeks ago during a taping, if you remember
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: that... that CPG industry association that we roasted the job ad
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: for it, we were kind of musing out loud, like, is this kind of like a
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: first hire into this role?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it really felt like it was.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's the same
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: here.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe this is a role that hasn't been around before, like
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: you say.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, say that and accompany it with a purpose statement.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime that I'm writing a job description, I usually accompany it
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: with a purpose statement and say "The purpose of this role is to X" in a
• 19:04
  sentence or two and not just like mind the fish and count the,
• 19:08
  you know,
• 19:09
  beans
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: in the bowl and put A and B or whatever.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, your purpose is to play
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: this role in the organization organization and add this value and
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: that's that.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Everything flows from it.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny though,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Paul, because I thought the exact opposite.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: I thought this might be a
• 19:25
  backfill role and it's making me wonder if like the story I
• 19:30
  created in my head
• 19:32
  from this job description was there was somebody who was in
• 19:35
  this role already
• 19:37
  who was so valuable that they got pulled into,
• 19:41
  oh,
• 19:41
  the salespeople needed their
• 19:43
  expertise and so they got pulled into that and they got pulled
• 19:46
  into project
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: management because they were so good at leading change and influencing
• 19:52
  and,
• 19:52
  so when they lost that person,
• 19:54
  the organization just kind of calcified in
• 19:57
  their head that like,
• 19:58
  oh,
• 19:58
  one person can do this and I want the exact same person
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: to do exactly what they did.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the story I was telling myself in my
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: head.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's so good a point.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: We do that too, all the time.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: We each have our own story of what we think
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: is happening in the background and it's just totally made up.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: But everyone reads
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: that story differently.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of agree with you.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it does say
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: that the company has 51 to 200 employees.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if the majority of
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: them are contractors.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: In a situation like this, I feel like they are probably
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: mostly contractors.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I agree with you.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: What if this person who is in the
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: role had all these capabilities?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, we're just going to clone this
• 20:38
  individual,
• 20:38
  which is another topic that Paul and I talk about a lot is
• 20:41
  that...
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: that's not strategic.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want to just clone
• 20:46
  high performers and stick them in the role because it's just...
• 20:49
  very often
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: doesn't work out that way.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: But it does feel like it's cobbled together,
• 20:56
  based on someone's abilities,
• 20:59
  and/or maybe that person left and they wore a
• 21:03
  bunch of hats and now,
• 21:03
  like you said,
• 21:04
  they're just trying to replicate that.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it would be a good question to
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: ask why did they leave?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they were overworked and stretched too thin.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: If
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: that were the case, interviews I always ask, is this...
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: tell me about this role?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is this a replacement role?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay to ask
• 21:24
  those questions and even if they have kind of a formulated
• 21:27
  answer for you.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Most of the time, companies are not ready for it.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: So how they react when you ask
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: that question is a good indicator as well.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Just to give you... just
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: trust your gut a little bit, ask those questions.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: You have the right to find out
• 21:44
  what is the background of this role why this why does this role
• 21:47
  exist,
• 21:47
  you know,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: and why now.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to go into desired skills
• 21:54
  they have education and experience minimum 10 years experience
• 21:57
  in the field
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: of pedagogy and ESL/EFL experience developing e-learning solutions with a
• 22:04
  wide adoption success class,
• 22:06
  advanced degree in education or language studies,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: direct classroom or online teaching experience.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Then it goes into other...
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: it's really short, so I'm just going to read through it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: From time to time, remember
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: this in the desired skills section.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it's again a weird layout.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm always
• 22:25
  annoyed by how these things are laid out,
• 22:27
  but it says,
• 22:28
  "From time to time may
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: be required to publish white papers or write articles related to pedagogy
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: issues.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Goal oriented, self-starter, and team player.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Our company operates
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: internationally.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: The ideal candidate must have the ability to understand and
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: work with cultures in Latin America, Asia, and beyond is key."
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, I'm just
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: going to read that last sentence one more time.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: The ideal candidate must have
• 22:51
  the ability to understand and work with cultures in Latin
• 22:53
  America,
• 22:54
  Asia,
• 22:54
  and
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: beyond is key.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that again I'm having issues because this a company
• 23:00
  that's supposed to be educating on ESL and EFL,
• 23:05
  but there's...
• 23:05
  there are a
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: lot of grammatical errors here.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: So when I see things like this, and when I see the
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: way that the job posting is laid out, it makes me wonder.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Paul and I like to play
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: the game of like... guess who wrote this job posting?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that it
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: is necessarily someone with an HR background.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's someone,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: maybe it's even the person that they were replacing who's so busy that
• 23:30
  they're like,
• 23:30
  "Okay,
• 23:30
  quickly write down,
• 23:31
  jot down what it is that I do and what
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: we're looking for, and then put this out there."
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: But, curious to hear others'
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: thoughts about the desired skills, education, experience, and other
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: section.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I will...
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'll let you go first, Kathi.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm just like stepping on your words all the time.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: can go first.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you've been
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: saying.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it was... there's this discrepancy between the responsibilities
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: and the skills.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: the skills certainly were focused on some.... on a typical
• 24:05
  pedagogy person who has the experience,
• 24:08
  but the very first thing they said
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: in the responsibilities was product development.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a whole set of skill
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: sets that you should be looking for to be successful in that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's the exact
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: same thing with product management.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: change management, project management,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, that was a glaring red flag for me.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And something that I've seen in
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: the past, which is why I really feel like this, the hiring process is so
• 24:33
  outdated,
• 24:34
  is because what always hap...
• 24:35
  what,
• 24:36
  not always,
• 24:36
  but what tends to
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: happen is a position opens up.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: They look at an existing job description that's
• 24:43
  probably been around for maybe like five,
• 24:45
  six,
• 24:46
  seven,
• 24:46
  10 years and then they
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: just see what they can tack on and what they add.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And this looks to me like a
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Frankenstein job description of an original pedagogy person that now they
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: want to also develop products, and market, and train, and manage change.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: For me I was completely lost when they said you...
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: ideally, you will have classroom teaching experience.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was like hang on.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: you want a former teacher, like a former educator
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: to be stepping into this role and they need to have project management
• 25:25
  experience and they need to have product,
• 25:27
  like you said Kathi,
• 25:27
  they need to have
• 25:29
  product development experience and they need to have kind of
• 25:31
  sales support,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: marketing support experience like what?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: In what universe does that
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: person exist?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't get it.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if classroom experience means ESL
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: and EFL classroom, like, you kind of taught through a
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: community college or something, night courses for ESL and EFL.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I could kind of see that.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it's still... this all seems
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: super weird.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure that this person actually exists, other than
• 26:06
  perhaps this one unicorn that they had and they asked them to
• 26:09
  write the job ad
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: on the way out, like you said Jen, this does kind of smell like
• 26:14
  somebody who's got,
• 26:14
  you know,
• 26:15
  about five seconds of attention to devote to this
• 26:18
  and they just stream of consciousness'd it down,
• 26:19
  and then,
• 26:20
  you know,
• 26:20
  walked out
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: because their two weeks was up.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: What do you, where is
• 26:27
  any of the requirement for...
• 26:28
  it's everything you said,
• 26:29
  sales experience or
• 26:31
  anything like that,
• 26:31
  even like if you're dealing with ministries of education and
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: things like that... well what about that kind of experience?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's all just missing,
• 26:38
  so I think you're right and we see this often it feels like it
• 26:40
  was copy and
• 26:42
  pasted from a previous job posting from like 10 years ago and
• 26:46
  they just didn't
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: do a great job.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I go back to, well, who wrote this because it just
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't make any sense, so the one kind of positive thing
• 26:56
  that I'm taking so far out of this is,
• 26:57
  that it does not...
• 27:00
  everything they've
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: listed in terms of experience and kind of what they want and your
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: background and the responsibilities.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't seem like it's a
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: "DINO", a director in name only.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: It does seem like it's an actual director job
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe... we'll see... if the pay is
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: commensurate.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I hope it is.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a good point.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: I have
• 27:23
  not really seen like director level responsibilities here other
• 27:27
  than the 10
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: years requirement for 10 years of experience but yeah it's a good point
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Paul, this why we want to see at least who this person reports to,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: what is the title, what's the naming convention like in this organization
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: because, yeah, you're right there is nothing in here that's speaking to a
• 27:45
  director level and we're not going to get that because then it
• 27:47
  goes into about
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: the company so it started with about us and it talked about the company.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: It ends
• 27:52
  with about the company and it's I mean I won't bore you with
• 27:56
  reading it because
• 27:57
  it's almost exactly the same as what was written at the very
• 28:00
  top of the job
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: posting and that's it.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no talk about...
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: oh, wow.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: ...benefits.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's no accommodation
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: statement about, you know, if you need any accommodations to pursue this
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: opportunity.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's no AI disclosure about how or if they use AI.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And there's nothing speaking to the culture.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Why would you join this
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: company?
• 28:24
  This to me is the biggest story that the job posting tells,
• 28:29
  is that this is not a
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: high... like, positive culture type organization whatsoever.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: You're not
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: telling us anything about what it's like to work at your organization and
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: what's in it for this individual.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: So overall, that's the job posting.
• 28:51
  What we're going to do is talk about salary guesses and then
• 28:56
  we're going to
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: take a little bit of a break.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to have the two of you read the thing
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: from start to finish and we can give the final ratings.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: But before we go into
• 29:06
  that,
• 29:06
  I just wanted to make a note when we talk about culture and how
• 29:09
  important
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: it is to speak to culture in your organization.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: I like to do a little bit
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: of research when I find these job postings and see what I can find
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: culturally.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I did find a Glassdoor account.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: There was one review.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's from
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: April of 2025, so like a year ago.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's only one.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just going
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: to read it for you two.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, pros, good team who are doing their best under
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: impossible conditions.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: the cons: CEO creates an incredibly
• 29:40
  toxic culture by yelling,
• 29:42
  swearing at subordinates when things don't go his
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: way.
• 29:45
  Chasing short-term deals instead of building a long-term
• 29:48
  strategy,
• 29:49
  no vision
• 29:50
  for future of company beyond let's make lots of money,
• 29:53
  provides no HR department
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: or support, running most ill-managed company ever encountered.
• 29:59
  Advice to management:
• 30:01
  advice is for employees and that is to get out while
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: you can.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: So... that review was written by
• 30:10
  the person who left this role the first time they tried to
• 30:13
  leave and they got
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: wooed back with more money and a title bump and now they're on the way
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: out again.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is that together?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're piecing it
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: together.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like what is the story?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, so I shared that with you and we know the
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: people who are on Glassdoor mostly are disgruntled.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: We get that, and I think
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: that they have a right to air their grievances.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't have any
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: problem with that.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I know every situation is a little bit different.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: But
• 30:37
  when you start to see patterns,
• 30:38
  which there's only one review,
• 30:40
  so we can't
• 30:42
  really see a pattern,
• 30:42
  but what we can see is that they don't speak to culture
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: or anything that's, like I said, in it for the individual.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: It does tell a story.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: yeah, just wondering what both of your thoughts are on that and how it
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: ties into the job posting itself.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: It definitely lines up with the job ad,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: like the... you mentioned the job ad is very bereft
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: of cultural markers.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's nothing in this job ad from
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: an employer branding perspective that says to me, like, hey
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: We have a purpose.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's about more than making money.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is why you should
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: join us.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And people who, even today, like, with a weird labour market,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: people who... the best people typically don't care about money, it's
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: not their primary motivator.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: The best people care about legacy, about
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: building things, about impact, about what they can accomplish at the
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: organization.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, when you're writing these job ads and you
• 31:42
  don't talk about what your purpose is as an organization,
• 31:45
  you're not catching any
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: of those people.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: They might skim the job headline and maybe the salary
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: range and get a couple sentences in, and then they're out.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: That
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: review kind of reinforces what was missing in the job ad.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's how I feel, too.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, looking at it looking at the job
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: description through the lens of a job applicant.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a damn shame.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a beautiful mission to create a multilingual world.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hell yes,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: sign me up.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: But then I look at the job description and the responsibilities and
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: the requirements and the lack of thought behind what, you know, the
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: culture like you said.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: It clearly shows this, "oh they're just saying this
• 32:28
  is their mission,
• 32:29
  but what they're really focusing on is minimal overhead and
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: maximum profit" is what this screams to me.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the whole Glassdoor review just
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: really validates that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, they really tried, impossible conditions,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: that's it, like, that nailed it for me
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: And we guessed that this was not written by someone who has a traditional
• 32:54
  HR or recruitment background and it sounds like in that review
• 32:57
  that we are
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: absolutely bang on.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: So let's go into salary guesses.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: This role, as we said,
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: it's remote.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: The company is in Toronto, I guess they're trying to get
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: someone maybe Toronto-ish area, but remote Canada, Director-level role.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's have our guest Kathi take a first stab at what you think the
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: salary range is.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: I know this my least favourite part.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Hate this.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: Get it wrong
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: all the time.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And to make it even more fun, the exchange rate on
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: the Canadian dollar to the US dollar is about 30%.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: So take the number in your
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: brain and add 30% to it.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because my knowledge is
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: more in the US market.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Damn, for like, I just don't have a very
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: high...
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a high belief in the CEO of this company.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I know
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: they're going to lowball this position.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, I'm gonna guess
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: CAD a$130,000...
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: ...somewhere around there.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: I just love you so much for being such a generous queen.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that does bring up... kind of an interesting
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: thing to talk about.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: In general, salaries in the US for
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: professional positions are higher than
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: in Canada.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: and you know the trade-off is that we don't need to
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: pay co-pays for healthcare.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, like we can take smaller salaries like it's
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: fine.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: But generally speaking, in the US, like salaries and wages are
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: higher.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you know like Kathi when you put that number out there, you
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: thought that was a lowball right?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes I did, because I mean for a director
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: What what do you think that a job like this should be paid?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: If it was to
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: be fairly paid, what number would you put there?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for all of the roles and responsibilities,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would imagine somewhere between CAD $145,000 to
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: CAD $160,000.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: that's so fascinating.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, for me, I think that the range
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: that they're putting on the job ad, and I also think that this a lowball
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: number.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the range that they're putting is between CAD $75,000
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: and CAD $90,000.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, way off, and I think that this is worth
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: between CAD $120,000 and CAD$ 140,000 in the market.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, like you
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: said, Kathi, your experience is in the US market and there is like, there
• 35:40
  is a wage discrepancy between the two markets for a bunch of
• 35:42
  different reasons
• 35:44
  and people argue about it all the time up here and down there
• 35:46
  like,
• 35:47
  oh,
• 35:47
  you
• 35:48
  know,
• 35:48
  people in Canada are paid so poorly and we're like,
• 35:50
  oh,
• 35:50
  people in the
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: US are paid so well.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that simple.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, quality of life is a
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: big, big factor that goes into it, right?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: Apples to oranges for sure.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: yeah, absolutely.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And just to add some context behind how my brain works
• 36:03
  because I have done like job comp'ing for and I've built like
• 36:07
  career levelling
• 36:08
  matrices and what the responsibility should be,
• 36:10
  and I have,
• 36:11
  you know,
• 36:12
  I have
• 36:13
  scoped project management roles,
• 36:14
  product development roles,
• 36:15
  sales roles,
• 36:16
  director
• 36:17
  level leadership roles,
• 36:19
  and like that is how my brain works and if I am blending
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: that job if I'm looking at this pay scale system and blending that job,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: I legit would pay this person I think they should be at CAD $145,000 to
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: CAD $160,000 depending on their level of experience and their capability.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: that's where my mind is.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: I do the same, right?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like
• 36:39
  you're looking at all sorts of factors and a lot of it is,
• 36:42
  like,
• 36:42
  scope of work
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: and ambiguity even, right?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like is this person going to have to have some of the
• 36:48
  ability to go out and problem solve and make decisions without
• 36:52
  checking with
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: anyone?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we don't know, because we don't know what the reporting structure
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: is.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: But just as the job itself is not very generous, neither is the salary.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the salary is Canadian dollars CAD $70,000 to CAD $80,000.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I was pretty close.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's awful.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Travesty.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: It is a travesty.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: It is heinous.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I couldn't find it in the job posting
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: itself.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: What I had to do is find it... it was posted on Indeed as well,
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: but a little bit different title.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, I don't know if they were trying to cast
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: a wider net and see what they could find.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: but that is the salary.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: again, they're not listing any of the benefits.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: Anything else, it's
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: CAD $70,000 to CAD $80,000.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: The spread itself is like a $10,000 range.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 37:44
  I have seen job postings lately that explain their range and
• 37:48
  say,
• 37:48
  "Here's why
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: this is the range.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: here's what we usually hire into and here's what is
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: required in order to hit the top of the range, right?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like that is very
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: helpful.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of work and it's a lot of work when you don't have a
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: dedicated person whose role it is to do things like this.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: But, I think it's
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: worth it.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think the more information you can give people, absolutely, the
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: better so that you can attract the right person for the role.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's what you're
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: trying to do here.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: The role is designed to be a high impact role.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: clearly the way they're
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: putting it together.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that is
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: wild.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's like $60 grand USD on the bottom end.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's brutal
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we're going to go into a brief intermission.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so we're back.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: We each had time
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: to review the full job posting, which will be linked in the show notes or
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: something like that, right Paul?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put the full
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: job post up on the episode page.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put that link in
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: the show notes so you all can kind of read through it, follow along and
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: whatnot.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: We'll also have links to Kathi's Substack and some other
• 39:11
  kind of secondary links that support what we're talking about
• 39:13
  in the show up
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: there.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Groovy.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: So Kathi, would love to
• 39:18
  hear your thoughts and your rating on the job description as
• 39:22
  well as the job
• 39:24
  design and also kind of any guidance or advice you'd have on
• 39:28
  maybe the person
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: applying for this role and the organization itself.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think job design 3 out of 10.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Job description,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: similar.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: I guess 4 out of 10.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that... it's a very
• 39:52
  hollow Frankenstein of a job and there's clearly not enough
• 39:56
  thought put behind
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: how this role fits into the organization, how it provides value, and
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: how to attract the right candidate job description wise.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for me
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can... if I think about the job applicant
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: experience, my general advice for them is 1)
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: this a two-way process.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to think that you're applying for a
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: job to show that you are the right fit, but keep in mind that you're also
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: assessing if they're the right fit for you.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you can start with assessing
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: what the job description says.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: And don't be afraid to ask questions because
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: you have the leverage, too.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: They need somebody in this role.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: You have the
• 40:49
  leverage to ask what you need to ask to know if they're the
• 40:52
  right fit for you.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: I could leave it at that.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've
• 41:01
  covered a couple of specific advice,
• 41:01
  like,
• 41:02
  don't be afraid to ask if this is a
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: backfill or if this net-new, if and why is this role open now?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Who should it
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: report to?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Who does it work with?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: What's the ecosystem that it's working within?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're not going to be working in a silo.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to be working in
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: a system.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah...
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'll leave it at that.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: And Paul, what about you?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Kathi, you're so polite and so nice and
• 41:30
  you resisted the urge to just like call these people the worst
• 41:34
  names on the
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: face of the earth.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Good for you.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: I applaud you.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: I read through this
• 41:41
  job ad and I was like,
• 41:43
  for the first time and,
• 41:44
  you know,
• 41:44
  for the folks at home
• 41:45
  that's kind of a part of what we do at the very end of the show
• 41:47
  like we read
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: through it for the first time.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: we haven't seen it before and then kind of
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: round out our judgment a little bit on what we've been talking about.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: This
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: thing is a... this thing is a dumpster fire.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's a nightmare.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: the job ad
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: itself, I'd give it probably a 2 out of 10.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: There were...
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: it just wasn't written well.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it wasn't descriptive in the right way.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was structured awkwardly.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: There was a a bunch of stuff missing from the job
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: ad that really needed to be in there, like the employer brand stuff.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: What's our mission, why should you work here, what's in it for you?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: For me,
• 42:27
  that was like...
• 42:28
  that was a huge miss,
• 42:28
  because,
• 42:29
  I think Kathi,
• 42:29
  you said earlier
• 42:30
  on the episode,
• 42:31
  you know the...
• 42:32
  what it seems to be the overall mission what
• 42:35
  seems to be the overall mission is actually really great,
• 42:37
  you know create a
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: world of polyglots, create a world where people can communicate like
• 42:42
  person-to-person without technology in the middle,
• 42:45
  kind of buggering everything
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: up.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: that's a great mission.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Don't talk about it at all.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's goofy.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: this job ad sucks.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: 2 out of 10.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Role design?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: like, 1 out of 10.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: This role design is brutal.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's brutal.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's
• 43:05
  no way that there's going to be a large pool of candidates who
• 43:12
  feel that they
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: can really tackle this.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, the perfect person, the perfect person to
• 43:20
  take this job,
• 43:20
  honestly,
• 43:20
  I believe is Sam Altman's Claude-enabled Chia Pet.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: That is
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: the only entity that's going to be able to do this job and not like fall
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: apart, because they're a Chia Pet.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: they don't have any emotions... like what is
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: going on here?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is goofy.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: At the very end they kind of threw in something
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: about cultural sensitivity.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: So they're saying we have customers all over the
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: world.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you need to be able to understand...
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm
• 43:49
  paraphrasing...
• 43:49
  like,
• 43:49
  basically you need to have cultural sensitivity to people in
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Latin America, Southeast Asia.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a very valid point, like
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: cultural differences when you're working In international sales.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And they have
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: an office in China too, they said.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, there's going to be internal dynamics
• 44:05
  around cultural sensitivity that you're going to need to be
• 44:07
  able to navigate.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: But they kind of just threw this in at the very end as like, a
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: throwaway statement.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's... no... you needed to be able to talk about the
• 44:18
  importance of that in a much richer,
• 44:20
  much deeper way,
• 44:22
  because it will be a big
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: part of the job.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're doing instructional design from Canada for
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: customers who are buying your stuff in Latin America, that ain't small.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad you said that.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: That
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: line was the only indication of the soul behind the role, and it was an
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: afterthought.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was a throwaway statement at the very end.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was goofy.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: 2 out of 10.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because I'm feeling good.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's Monday and whatever.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: If I was in a bad mood, this would be a negative two billion.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Spicy Paul.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: Spicy Paul.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: I would say, like, if we could award them a
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: participation ribbon, that's as good as it would get for me.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: Which I guess maybe
• 45:17
  is like 1 out of 10 on both job design and job description
• 45:21
  because somebody had
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: to do it.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so kudos to them for showing up and putting pen to paper.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think for all the reasons you both listed, I'm not going to just, you
• 45:34
  know,
• 45:34
  feed a fed horse here,
• 45:35
  but like I was that your pop bottle that just went
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: I thought you told me to No, no, no.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: That was my that was my
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: water bottle opening.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it was not it was not shushing you either, but
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: in my brain I was like feed horse.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Jen, did you just coin a phrase?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: like that.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to use it there.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: There are some PETA has some
• 45:56
  really good just like different ways of saying things like feed
• 46:00
  two birds with
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: one scone is a really nice saying.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's just
• 46:05
  more gentle way of saying things like feed a fed horse and I
• 46:08
  prefer those.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody likes killing birds.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: killing birds.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, we have a bird nesting right
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: above our door and it's just like the sweetest thing ever.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so going back
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: to that, I don't want to feed a fed horse.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: We've already said how we
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: feel and we all agree.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think that the issue is going to be that they are
• 46:26
  either going to take forever to fill this role because they're
• 46:28
  never going to
• 46:30
  find anyone good enough for this role,
• 46:31
  but they haven't really done a good job
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: describing what good enough is.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: And whoever they do get to fill this role is
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: not going to succeed and they are going to blame the candidate for it.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like you
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: just, you just know how it's going to play out, right?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're both,
• 46:48
  Kathi and I,
• 46:48
  have both spent a lot of time in HR and you just know how it's
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: going to play out.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: Some poor soul is going to get this role.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's not going
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: to be like their ideal candidate.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's not going to be their first choice
• 46:58
  because they didn't design the role,
• 47:00
  the job description,
• 47:01
  or the role,
• 47:01
  for their
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: ideal candidate.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, who do you want in this role?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: Just make up like we did...
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: we made up a story about this whole thing.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: Make up the story about your
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: ideal candidate.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: Who are they?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: Where do they come from?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: What do they like?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 47:17
  then reverse engineer and design that role for them and then
• 47:21
  you will find
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: each other, right?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like it will, in time and space, whatever you will find
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: each other and then it'll all work out.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: But this isn't going to do that.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: yeah, I just don't feel good for the individual who ends up getting hired
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: into this role.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's not going to work out well, and they need to just do
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: better.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think this one that you're going to
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: see reposted like in pretty short order.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: you're correct.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it might
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: get reposted under different names or different, like, they're just
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: going to keep trying to fill this role and yeah, it's going to be
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: disastrous all around.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, if they want to insist
• 48:03
  on this being a Frankenstein job,
• 48:04
  at least indicate like what would success
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: look like, guys?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, throw them a... throw the job applicants a bone.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to attract the right people, too.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said,
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: that's such a good point.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: And think about what that interview would look
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: like.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: At least if the candidate knew what success looks like,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: what to expect in their first 30, 60, 90 days, and this is how we're
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: going to like measure that success.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Would give the candidates interviewing
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: something to work with.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: They can speak to it, but you're giving them
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: nothing here.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to go to the interview with very little ability
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: to prepare for the role.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah...
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: It also makes me think too, if
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: you were writing this job ad and you you had to have the Frankenstein
• 48:53
  thing going on,
• 48:53
  like you say Kathi,
• 48:55
  it would probably be pretty helpful to have
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: some sort of indication of what the the proportion of importance
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: of each part is because you in collaborative
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: organizations, and this doesn't sound like that type of place, but in
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: collaborative, small organizations.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: you do wear a lot of hats and there
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: is a blending of responsibilities and there's lots of crossover and you
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: often participate in things that aren't your job because it kind of
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: helps the team and it can be really good for you, as you're learning and
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: developing as well, to kind of pick up those skills and that experience
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: that's a little bit outside of the boundary.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it would be great to know, like, okay instructional design, you know,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: this like an A - super important, participating in sales calls with the
• 49:45
  Ministry of Education this is,
• 49:46
  like,
• 49:47
  a C.
• 49:47
  It's going to add some value to the
• 49:49
  sales process,
• 49:50
  but you know it's not something that you need to stay up weeks
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: and nights cramming to figure out how the sales process works
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: with government clients.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Stuff like that for a job like this, that has to be
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: a Frankenstein, could be pretty useful.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: And for people who are thinking about interviewing or
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: applying for a job like this, go in armed with questions.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Go in armed with
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: questions.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to want to ask a lot of questions to see if this is the
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: place for you.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because like we said earlier in the episode, you know, like
• 50:29
  you're interviewing the employer as much as...
• 50:31
  potential employer...
• 50:32
  as much as
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: they are interviewing you.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of folks go into job interviews thinking
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: "I can't really ask my own questions.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: I can only really speak when
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: spoken to.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: I have to be respectful and deferential."
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, you don't.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, you
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: don't.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is it bad that my ultimate advice is run
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: away?
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like don't even apply from this one.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: That, I've
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: never said on a taping before, an episode before that you should
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: absolutely not apply for this job.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: People, don't apply for this job.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: My god.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: But if you did and you interviewed, hit
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: us up because we want to talk.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: We can have a follow-up reunion episode and we
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: can talk about it as well because I'd be really curious to see what kind
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: of hot mess the interview process is.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: And we will blur your face and put on a little moustache with a
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: filter or something.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put on like a voice disguise.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: We'll guarantee your
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: anonymity.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Hit us up.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: We want to talk to you if you applied for this job.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: I want to know if this was a backfill
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: for Martha.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: I already have Martha in my head.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: She wrote this job description and
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: she quit.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: She was like, "See you on the flip side.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: Going on my cruise."
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: so I guess we can consider this post roasted.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but don't eat it.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: See you next week, folks.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: See you next week.