Latest / Nurse Leadership Dumpster Fire / Dunning Kruger vs. Imposter Syndrome
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hey dumpster pals, Teresa and Cindy. We are gonna talk today about the Dunning Kruger effect and imposter syndrome. Sweet. Have you ever worked with someone that's like a leader or a nurse that is totally confident and sometimes completely wrong? speaker-1: Yes, for sure. And then there's the leader who is super proficient. They know what they're doing, but they're always questioning themselves and they just seem to lack the confidence to actually make decisions and get things done. Yeah. speaker-0: Two totally different types of people and we're gonna break that down. Exciting. speaker-1: Yeah, that sounds a speaker-0: Yay. Here's the crazy part. The person that knows the least is sometimes the most confident and the person with the most experience and the most knowledge is has less confidence. Why does that happen? speaker-1: So the question is, how do you know if you're actually good at what you're doing or if you're just questioning yourself, like what's the balance between the two things? How do we figure that out? speaker-0: So the two psychologists are David Dunning and Justin Kruger. The basic idea of the Dunning-Kruger effect is people with limited skills and capacity sometimes overestimate what they know. So they know some and then they just assume that they know everything without knowing the whole picture. speaker-1: Have you ever heard the term I know just enough to be dangerous? Yes. That's where this whole concept really comes into play. Because as you start to learn something, you think, I know what I'm doing. And then you keep learning and then you realize how much you don't know. And then there's like this cliff that can drop off where all of a sudden you're just like, I don't know anything. And why am I here? Who hired me? There I need an adultery adult in this room because I am not ready for this. Yep. speaker-0: So basically you don't know what you don't know. speaker-1: So true. And when you don't know what you don't know, you may not be recognizing that you're making mistakes. Correct. Which is why I hired Teresa in my first leadership position because I knew that she would actually call me out and tell me when I was doing something wrong. And that worked out great for me because speaker-0: What else do you improve if people don't tell you? speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. And you have to be open to that. So we're gonna talk a little bit about that as well. speaker-0: So have you ever met a new nurse manager or new person who thought management was easy and until they actually became a manager? speaker-1: Yes, I have. In fact, this happened recently for me because I was covering one of our other director areas and there was a new assistant nurse manager. And when I took over and I started getting to know the staff, she'd been in the role for about six months, nine months, and I was asking her how she liked the role and she was like, I hate it. It's not at all what I thought it was gonna be. And I was like, did you think that when you came into this job that it was gonna be like an easier nine to five and lower stress? And she said, Yes. And I said, so now what's your experience? And she was like, Yeah, I do not like having to manage people. I did not realize how much work that was actually gonna take. And she's like, I'm so much more stressed now than I was when I was a bedside nurse. And she actually left the position because she was like, This is not what I thought it was gonna be. Yeah. speaker-0: It happens. speaker-1: So sometimes on the flip side, we just talked about a new nurse who thought it was gonna be easy and then came into the role and realized, I was dead wrong. But you also have leaders who have been doing it for a long time and they just assume that because they've been doing it for a long time, that they're doing it well. And so I think that there's nothing more dangerous than an a leader who says I've been doing this for twenty years and I know what I'm doing and basically leave me alone and back off my stuff because I have got it figured out. speaker-0: Basically, the minute you believe you don't have anything to learn, you are the problem. speaker-1: Yep, that's exactly that's when you get in trouble, is when you stop questioning yourself and you stop looking for feedback. Correct. So now let's talk about the other side of this coin where you have somebody who is doing a good job. You watch them perform, they obviously know what they're talking about, but they question every single move. They freeze when they have to make a decision, they question everyone else around them because they just aren't confident enough to actually do what they need to do and lead their position. speaker-0: So now we're gonna talk about the new nurse manager who is respected by her peers. So that new nurse is really experienced. They have done a great job transitioning into the role. And now they're in meetings with the director and all of the people and they're I know nothing about what I'm doing. Who ha speaker-1: I'm not the right person. speaker-0: Yes. And they start doubting everything they're doing. speaker-1: Very common in new new leaders. So in this situation, what's happening is that instead of that new nurse leader thinking, this is just a new skill that I have to learn, they just assume that they're not qualified and they're not the right person for the job. Right. And miss the fact that there's a reason that they got hired into the position. There was something that somebody saw in them that made them think you have the right core. traits. So instead of realizing that they have the core traits and they just need to build on that and learn the technical skills of leadership, they just assume, I'm not qualified and somebody made a mistake. So have you ever experienced that feeling like you're not the right person for the job? speaker-0: Yes, so much. I I really think this is what was happening for me when I was new to the role. And it wasn't the first time I experienced it. I experienced it when I was a new nurse educator because it was a level one trauma center and I instantly felt like everybody knows more than me. I am not smart enough for this job. And I remember feeling that way for two speaker-1: It's a long time to be feeling incompetent. speaker-0: I never really got feeling more confident until I left the role. And then everyone started actually like, Hey, I really liked how you did this. I really liked how you did this. And I was like interesting. I wasn't that bad at that job. That was a good lesson that maybe I am more competent than I thought, or that I can speaker-1: And it seems like you have recognized that that's part of your new process because I remember when you got your last role, you told your supervisor, hey, I tend to stumble a lot in the beginning. I struggle with my confidence and I may need a lot of support. This is part of how I learn. And so what I need from you as my boss is to support me in this way. Yes. Which I think was super helpful to her because then you gave her a roadmap. So instead of her watching you fumble and get stressed out and thinking, maybe I did pick the wrong person because she's so anxious about it, she just knew this is part of Teresa's process and I just need to support her in these ways that she told me to. speaker-0: Yes, so that is exactly what I learned. I learned that I am not the person that jumps into a role and is immediately successful. I'm the person that jumps into a role and kind of doesn't know what to do for a minute. But then once I figure it out, I do become successful. speaker-1: And I think that that's probably the process for most of us. But the fact that you recognize that that is part of the process and expect it and plan for it, that's the key that's gonna make you more successful. speaker-0: And whenever I hire someone new that is working with me, I remind them of this frequently. Yep. If they are replacing someone that was really great before, I always remind them you are not that person and those are not your shoes to fill. You have your own shoes to fill. And I want to see how you are going to do this. I chose you for a reason. speaker-1: And want their authentic version of themselves. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. speaker-0: And what I find interesting is sometimes leaders who doubt themselves are or worry the most are the ones that are continuing to seek that feedback. They're learning and trying to improve because they want to. So we have two types of leaders, one who thinks they know everything and one who thinks they are not good enough for the job. So which one would you rather work for? speaker-1: Neither. I think that there has to be a middle way. We shouldn't have to just pick from two different extremes. So let's talk about what we need to do to try to find that happy balance between confidence enough to do your job appropriately, but not overconfident to the fact that you're missing any of your weaknesses or your mistakes. Overconfidence sounds like I already know this. Whereas imposter syndrome feels like I'm not the right person for the job. speaker-0: Hesitate or over prepare, doubt decisions, all of that is when you're having that imposter syndrome feeling. speaker-1: the middle way, what does that look like? speaker-0: So confidence in a nurse leader looks like I know what I bring to the table and I know that I still have things to learn. Is that's what you wanna see in a leader. speaker-1: Yeah, you really want to lean into both of these extremes and you are gonna be on that spectrum somewhere in the process. And there may be di times that you're like, I totally nailed that. Like I rocked it in that meeting. And then you may go to another meeting a week later and feel like totally out of your depth. As they say, those trajectories of like, this isn't what success looks like. It's not a straight J curve. It's like this, you know, you're like. Up down, up, down, up, down, but it in general you're gradually trending upward. speaker-0: Correct. And that is what leadership is like, or any new role that you're going into. Yeah. Whether you're a new nurse educator, a new coordinator, any role where you're taking on something different and it's not just what you've done for years. So say you've been a case manager and now you're doing something different, or I've been a nurse leader, or and now I'm gonna go a step higher. speaker-1: Yeah. What does that look like? So one thing I have learned in my own experience in leading, watching other leaders, and also mentoring other new leaders into their positions is that confidence does not equate to having the answer. It means that you trust yourself enough to figure it out. I have this person in our HR department who will call her and say, Hey Here's our situation. And she often jumps to conclusions and comes down like she sounds so sure of herself and so confident. And she's often wrong. And it's really dangerous. we've we've had to like back up and sort of like double check everything because she may be leading us down the wrong pathway. And so that balance of saying, having the having the willingness to say, I don't know the answer. I need to go look it up. Or let's pause and Let's step back a minute and go look at the drawing board. We don't have to make a decision right the second. speaker-0: That. And humility doesn't mean questioning whether you deserve the position. It means understanding that even great leaders have blind spots. In other words, nobody's perfect. speaker-1: Okay. So you're a new nurse leader and you're somewhere on the spectrum. How do you move forward to be the most successful version of yourself? How do you draw in from both of these extremes to find the right balance to be successful in your role? speaker-0: So there are three things you can start doing tomorrow to address this. speaker-1: So the first thing that you can start doing is actually seeking feedback. So ask the people around you, ask your supervisor, ask the people that directly report to you. What can I do better? How can I improve? How can I support you better? What do you need from me? There's so many ways that you can ask that, but just constantly be looking for, you know, what am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? Because we may think we understand. how we're showing up to people, but until we ask those people around us, we don't always know how that actually looks to the other side of the coin. speaker-0: And make sure you're not asking for validation, but feedback. There's a difference. So just make sure you're very clear on what are my blind spots? What am I missing? speaker-1: And you may have to brace yourself that you might be having to hear some hard feedback. So do whatever inner thinking and preparing you need to do to say, I need to hear some hard feedback, but I know that this is actually for the better, for my improvement. I need to hear this so that I can be a better version of myself. speaker-0: The second one, keep evidence of the accomplishments you've achieved. Imposter syndrome can creep in. You need something to refer to to remind you that you can figure it out. Everything is figure outable. Yes. speaker-1: I do recommend this. Do I always do it? No. But it is helpful to keep a like an ongoing document where you're just like, did this thing today, did this thing today. You know, especially like when you complete a project or you complete a process that you were working on, or you had a very difficult conversation with somebody and it went really well. Like write those things down. speaker-0: Number three, normalize saying, I don't know. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. I love saying that 'cause I often don't know. Yes. speaker-0: can be a competent leader and still need help with mentoring, coaching, support. We all have areas of growth and looking for and seeking that out is really important. speaker-1: And change out your mentor. If you've had the same mentor for a couple of years, maybe you should switch it up and go find a mentor that has a different style than the person you've been with because that's going to broaden your scope. Pick somebody who's in an area that has nothing to do with your work area because that's going to open up new horizons. speaker-0: Correct. And the other aspect of that is like they your current mentor may now have blind spots. And they may not see certain things. They may you may have developed a relationship where they're kind of focusing on all of your positive traits but not able to identify some of those. speaker-1: Absolutely. And I'll add one more thing to that, which is that you should always surround yourself with people who challenge your perspective. Look for people who have different skill sets than you do so that you can have them help fill in your blind spots. speaker-0: We don't have to know everything. Yes. speaker-1: Very true. But I am I am working on stretching myself to learn new things this year for sure. speaker-0: And then avoid those people that are constantly telling you how brilliant you are and amazing you are, which we all need one of those people, but it can't be so constant that they're building your confidence above your competence. speaker-1: Yeah. And don't always go to that person when you need to ask feedback. Like don't trick yourself. I'm gonna go to the person who always tells me I'm doing great because I want the validation that I'm right. speaker-0: So the takeaway, being confident doesn't mean that you are competent. And doubting yourself doesn't automatically mean you're incompetent. You need a little bit of both. You need a little bit of confidence and you need a little bit of doubt. So you can continue to grow and stay in that middle area rather than on the overconfident side or the underconfident side. speaker-1: And know who the people are that are going to be able to help you wherever phase you're at. You may have a phase where something really hard happened, you had some really negative feedback or something didn't work out the way you planned. And it's very easy to go down a negative spiral in your head and think, I'm I'm not the right person for this job. I I should step down, whatever. Know who you need to go to to get out of that funk. And at the same time, if you notice yourself like, I'm feeling very elated, go put yourself in a situation that's gonna challenge you. Understand who those people are, recognize the tools that are around you, because we all have those tools nearby, but realizing who's going to give you what at the moment you need is such a great skill set to have. speaker-0: And the balance really at the end is not to be the most confident person in the room, it's to be the most self aware person in the room. speaker-1: And this is where I think you're really being an authentic leader, which is ideally who all of us should be striving to be, is we're able to bring in the flavors of what makes us a unique leader and a strong leader. So this is what I think really being an authentic leader means is you're able to draw from the strengths and unique traits that make you a strong and standout leader, but also understanding that you have certain blind spots and weaknesses, and then finding the right people around you to help fill in those holes to to challenge you. That is how you actually accomplish being authentic and being a strong, dependable speaker-0: Leader. This discussion makes me want to challenge myself when I go back to work. speaker-1: What are you thinking you're gonna do? speaker-0: I don't know. I think I have an opportunity to have some coaching sessions and I would like to have somebody help me identify what area I could use coaching. speaker-1: That's awesome. Yeah. And I'm also I'm gonna be starting a new leadership program this year. It's a fellowship actually. So I'm gonna be meeting a lot of different leaders in a lot of different parts of the country and different like departments that aren't even in healthcare. So I'm also going to be, I think, getting a lot of different perspectives. And I'm really excited to see what that gives me when I show up day to day in my job. speaker-0: I think that's cool. So have you ever experienced imposter syndrome as a nurse leader? speaker-1: Yeah, let us know in the comments what your experience is. Have you seen this in other people or have you actually experienced it yourself one way or the other? speaker-0: Yeah, Dunning Cruder Effect, are you overconfident or imposter syndrome? Are you underconfident? We'd love to hear from you. So tell us in the comments. subscribe, hit that bell button. And if you know a nurse leader that could benefit from this. speaker-1: Send it on over. We want to keep hearing from you and we want to keep hearing what kind of content you want to hear from us so that we can keep helping all of us grow in this community of leadership, which is a challenging place to be. speaker-0: Dumpster Pals.