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Sam Hoyle: Assistant Police Commissioner defends police trip to China · Best of Business

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZEDB. Follow this
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  Speaker 2: Though to the serious business, there are concerns a number
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  Speaker 2: of New Zealand police officers may have been the target
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  Speaker 2: of Chinese spying while on a trip to China or October.
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  Speaker 2: Police say it was private, self funded, but organized by
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  Speaker 2: the police's ethnic responses of Responsive manager and a tour company,
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  Speaker 2: a Chinese tour company. Experts, including former SIS Minister Andrew Little,
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  Speaker 2: have raised serious concerns about the trip that included a
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  Speaker 2: meeting with a Chinese government official. Sam Hoyalse, the Assistant
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  Speaker 2: Police Commissioner. Good evening, Good, thanks for being on the show.
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  Speaker 2: You said earlier today that you were going to check
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  Speaker 2: into whether any of them were given gifts on this trip.
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  Speaker 2: Have you done that and were they?
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  Speaker 3: I have done that, and I can confirm that one
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  Speaker 3: of the buffet meals they had a twinge magnet was
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  Speaker 3: left at each of the police mets. The table that's
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  Speaker 3: the entire schedule of gifts they received.
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  Speaker 2: Were any of the flights or accommodation or meals discounted.
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  Speaker 3: Not at all. Everyone everyone paid their way they've paid
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  Speaker 3: their way in full. Jessica, who organized the trip, is
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  Speaker 3: acutely aware of the risks around foreign interference and the
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  Speaker 3: appearances of that. She made sure that everything was paid
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  Speaker 3: in full, every trip, every side excursion of people decided
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  Speaker 3: to take them up, or you step out of the
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  Speaker 3: day's events and go shopping.
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  Speaker 2: So you, you as police, you are absolutely confident that
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  Speaker 2: none of the flights, none of that, anything that's been
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  Speaker 2: paid for and you've checked was discounted. They haven't got
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  Speaker 2: any advantage over a fire went on my own.
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  Speaker 3: No, the only advantage they have on the you going
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  Speaker 3: on Jing is that someone else has organized it for them,
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  Speaker 3: that Jessica has done the work. Our staff were allowed
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  Speaker 3: to travel to China. They are abided by all the
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  Speaker 3: PSR Protective Security requirements that are current in New Zealand
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  Speaker 3: for all of government, not just police. They checked with
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  Speaker 3: ISG before they traveled. That's an International Services Group. Now
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  Speaker 3: we have staff full time in Beijing and Hong Kong.
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  Speaker 3: We work with the Chinese on policing matters. They did
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  Speaker 3: all the checks and everything sensible. You'd expect people were
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  Speaker 3: there to take a holiday in China. If you work
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  Speaker 3: for the New own government.
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  Speaker 2: If it was a private holiday, why was Jessica organizing it?
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  Speaker 3: She was organizing it for a colleagues at work.
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  Speaker 2: Is that a good use of justic as time?
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  Speaker 3: You're making assumptions she did on work time, Ryan like
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  Speaker 3: she did it because she's interested in the exposing other
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  Speaker 3: police to the cultural experience. You know, for our ethnics,
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  Speaker 3: liais and staff who work in this space, they are
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  Speaker 3: acutely aware of the They live this personally and professionally
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  Speaker 3: all the time, both them and their families. They are
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  Speaker 3: approached by special interest groups out of a number of
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  Speaker 3: countries you know, who have a despor living in bookland,
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  Speaker 3: who try and pressure them, get in front of them,
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  Speaker 3: you know, make them accept their will beal on issues.
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  Speaker 3: Currently we're talking about China, we could be talking about
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  Speaker 3: India or any other number of countries. These people who
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  Speaker 3: lived this space every day, every week, both personally and professionally,
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  Speaker 3: understand the risks.
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  Speaker 2: Who was the official they met with.
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  Speaker 3: I understand he was a local cultural attache who invited
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  Speaker 3: himself to the dinner.
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  Speaker 2: And what did they talk about.
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  Speaker 3: I don't have the details of what that conversation was.
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  Speaker 3: I have confidence in our people that were there they
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  Speaker 3: are as I say, they lived in this space all
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  Speaker 3: the time. They know the risk they go into these
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  Speaker 3: conversations eyes word open.
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  Speaker 2: How did he know that the dinner was happening. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: if this is just a private holiday, I mean it
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  Speaker 2: all sound. I mean, I can understand what you say. Look,
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  Speaker 2: for God's sakes, Ryan, it's a fringe magnet. Get over this.
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  Speaker 2: But you do have the former SIS Minister and Andrew
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  Speaker 2: Little saying, anybody with a level of influence, knowledge or
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  Speaker 2: understanding about New Zealand and New Zealand decision making of
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  Speaker 2: politics and institutions, and anyone with access to information or
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  Speaker 2: influence China is very interested in. He says it would
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  Speaker 2: be important for the police hierarchy to take a closer
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  Speaker 2: look at the officer's disclosures and the extent of the
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  Speaker 2: hospitality they enjoyed at the expense of provincial or Beijing
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  Speaker 2: governments during the trip.
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  Speaker 3: I read that today in the media somewhere. He's not
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  Speaker 3: wrong about that that China would have an interest. We
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  Speaker 3: know they would have an interest. That's why we have
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  Speaker 3: the PSO requirements for all of government employees. That's why
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  Speaker 3: they sorted by from ISG before we went New Zealand
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  Speaker 3: Police is not flying to those risks. We have staff
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  Speaker 3: live and work in Beijing and Hong Kong who are
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  Speaker 3: in that environment all the time. And we have our
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  Speaker 3: ethnic liais and staff in cities like Auckland who live
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  Speaker 3: and work in that environment the entire time. They're aware
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  Speaker 3: of the risks and they are live to that all
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  Speaker 3: the time.
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  Speaker 2: Did they take their private phones? Did anyone check them
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  Speaker 2: on return?
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  Speaker 3: They took famous I can only assume they took their
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  Speaker 3: private phones. I do know they left all police electronics behind,
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  Speaker 3: which is always sensible when you're going away on holiday.
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  Speaker 3: And though we are not in the business of checking
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  Speaker 3: our staft's private phones when they were turned from holiday.
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  Speaker 2: Would you do this type of trip again happily? Well,
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  Speaker 2: I guess allow it to be done again.
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  Speaker 3: I would allow staff take leave and travel to China.
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  Speaker 3: Whether they do it by themselves, where they do, it's
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  Speaker 3: part of a public tour. Whether they organize another group
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  Speaker 3: of police staff to go together, employ he's out of
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  Speaker 3: workplaces organizing trips together. It is not unheard of, not
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  Speaker 3: just in police. I'd expect that probably the PSR requirements,
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  Speaker 3: I expect that they would speak to IG before they travel,
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  Speaker 3: I'd expect they look at the in fact advice on
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  Speaker 3: the trouble on the country they intend traveling too, to
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  Speaker 3: make sure it's safe. They did all those sensible things.
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  Speaker 3: There is no rule anywhere in the New Zealand system
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  Speaker 3: that is the officers couldn't travel to China.
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  Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. What did it cost them? Out of interest?
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  Speaker 3: I have seen a couple of I don't want to
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  Speaker 3: quote when I might get it wrong, what roughly it
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  Speaker 3: was several thousand dollars for each of them per person.
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  Speaker 2: A couple of grand to go. How long were they there?
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  Speaker 3: I said several thousand dollars a few days, four days
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  Speaker 3: or something. I've seen itinery like, it's look like a
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  Speaker 3: good itinery. They've visited some amazing sites and museums and
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  Speaker 3: gorges and some great stuff.
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  Speaker 2: And we didn't bring home any spies.
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  Speaker 1: No.
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  Speaker 2: All right, Sam, thank you very much for your time.
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  Speaker 2: Appreciate it. Sam Hoyle, the Assistant Police can listen it
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