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Steve Skinner · Tracks To Success

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, everybody, right now on this edition of Tracks to Success.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: What happens when the career you trained for turns out to be only the beginning of the story?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: He started as an attorney in Chicago, then came opportunity in golf business, including a role with the Michael Jordan Golf Company.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: That unexpected turn eventually led him to Kemper Sports, where he joined in 1998, rose through the leadership ranks, and became CEO in 2008.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Today, he leads a company built around golf, sports, hospitality, and creating experiences that bring people together.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: And through all the growth, one idea continues to stand out.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: People make the difference.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Meet Steve Skinner, the detour that changed his career, the leadership lessons that helped build his company, and why pursuing your passion can sometimes take you somewhere you never expected.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: His inspiring story of success starts now.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Tracks to Success, the podcast that introduces you to inspiring people with inspiring stories.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's your chance to hear from top leaders, entrepreneurs, visionaries, and change makers as they share how they found their way to the top and how their journey can help you find your own.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And now here's your host, former network broadcaster, C-Suite executive, best-selling author, and keynote speaker, Craig Cann.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Steve, thank you so much for joining me.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Been looking forward to this conversation.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know what you've done in the golf space, but I think your journey is so interesting because it covers so many other things.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So really appreciate the time.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks for having me, Craig.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Great to uh great to see you again.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, sir.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um so your career is very interesting.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna touch a lot of bases here.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Started in law, turned into golf, eventually the CEO of Kemper's Kemper Sports.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's such a it's such a fascinating journey with pivots.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um let's start at the beginning.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Did you see this kind of going this way?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if you were to go back and and think of yourself as the high school kid or the grade school kid, where were you headed?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I probably thought I was gonna play for the Chicago Bears when I was a grade school kid, but that quickly died, you know, by uh my eighth grade.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, it's it's interesting.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh I've always been passionate about sports, always loved sports.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, grew up in a family of lawyers.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And as I like to say, you know, there were two things we talked about at the uh dinner table every night.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: One was law or politics, and the other was sports.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: And uh they're uh both very competitive activities and both winners and losers.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of parallels there.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I always dreamed about doing something in sports.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure I ever thought it would happen.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: I started my career um as a lawyer and actually in politics working for the government uh uh in Washington, D.C.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: for a while, met my wife there, uh worked in the first Bush administration.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so it is an interesting journey.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: But um, and I could have stayed on that path, but for a variety of other pivots, and uh uh then made a pivot uh probably when I was newly married in my early 30s.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I was practicing law, and I give my wife the credit for it because she said, You're miserable practicing law, you gotta do something you want to do, and was able to pivot uh into sports.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: So uh let's go back to the bears real quick.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: What position would you have played?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was kind of slow, so maybe center.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: That would have been that would have been fine.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: What attracted you to law in the first place?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's interesting.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it was law and it was it was as much politics.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: So uh as I said, my family's a lawyer, my dad's a lawyer, my brother was in law school.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we were very in, my dad was involved in politics uh early on.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I, you know, I thought a lot as a as a young person uh and a good family friend went on, Jim Thompson went on to become governor uh of Illinois, and we were kind of his uh, well, you're you're a Chicago area guy, so you know that.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, he was Uncle Jim to us.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: So at 12, 14 years old, I would go with him on the campaign trail to the Lake County Fair and you know, watch him.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: And you when you think about your journey, you know, and how it parallels, just watch he was a master politician, a master people person, and watch the connections and the relationships he made.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say early, uh, I went to law school in a lot of ways because I wasn't sure what else I was gonna do.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I was gonna go into government and maybe public service.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: I really liked that.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and um so that that really was, I will say, growing up in a family of lawyers, you don't really know anything else.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: So you kind of end up there by default.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it was it was an interesting journey and met a lot of great people along the way.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you just gave your wife credit, and you know, you got to be happy, you got to do what you want to do.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, walking away from that, right?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: That that's a challenge in and of itself, emotionally, mentally, and probably have an answer to some people, but but tell me about that.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it was really interesting.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: The the only real person uh I had the answer to is my mother-in-law.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: So when I made the pivot, I was I was went to Washington, D.C., worked in the Bush administration, had a great time.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, lost the election, so everyone kind of uh evacuated and came back to Chicago and was practicing law and really enjoyed the people in the practice of law, learned a lot, but was yearning to do something else, like building stuff, not fighting with people every day.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so another former lawyer, ex uh reformed lawyer, as we like to say, Chuck Reeves, had befriended Michael Jordan.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: And Michael had retired from basketball.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: This was that period when he'd retired in the middle and was starting a golf company, Michael Jordan Golf, to build high-end driving ranges with an entertainment component.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: I say all the time, had the technology been there, and maybe we've been a little bit smarter, would have been kind of what top golf was, although for more serious golfers.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I made, you know, so I made that leap.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: I really wanted to do something different.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: We had a new baby at home, but my wife uh gave me the encouragement.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: So the only real person I had to explain to was my mother-in-law, who uh was from New York, growing up on a farm in Ohio, and I like to say she called my wife and said, I don't get it.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: He's he's moving from a white shoe law firm to do a golf thing with a basketball player.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: What's that?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: But as you know, you're a Chicago uh kid for a Chicago kid to do something in golf with Michael Jordan near the peak of his popularity.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there couldn't you couldn't ask for anything more.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, you couldn't.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, notice the color I'm wearing, all right.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: I went a little bulls for you and a little Michael Jordan.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it had to be like amazing stuff about competition.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I know he has passion for golf and everything, but what what stood out?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: What'd you learn about from Jordan?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was so interesting because he would come to the board meetings and meet actively involved, and he was a young man, and probably my age, we were probably the same age at the time.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, one very insightful, he listened a lot.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't come in, you know, with with you know, thinking that he knew everything.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: He really listened a lot, but he had a great perspective on people.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And when we would meet with people, I mean with investment bankers, when I remember this time, and they were all coming in, you know, everyone came in because it was Michael who was going to be in the meetings.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: And when they'd leave, he would compare them to players or coaches that he had worked with.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that that that guy reminds me of Dean Smith, or Roy Williams used to say that.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and he's obviously very competitive uh and wanted to be successful, and uh was much more engaged than I think I thought when we first started the project.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and you talked about that that was during his quote unquote retirement period.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um what did you learn about from him about brand?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or or did he learn from you about brand?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh he is such a brand, period.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, and you know, I would say we learned we learned from him and um David Falk and Curtis Polk and all those guys, and the Nike guys were all around it.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: It it was yeah, it was the importance of brand, and everything that he was going to do and put his name on had to be first class.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: So looking back, we probably spent more on those early driving ranges uh than other people would have because it was Michael's name.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: We then pivoted the company and got into the retail business.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: He went back to play basketball at the time, and it was the peak of his popularity.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we ended up selling, we had the rights for Michael Jordan golf on apparel.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: We ended up selling more shirts than we did range balls because when he went back to play, people would make trips in.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: We ended up opening a store at the airport.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: So the power, I think, of anything, the power of his brand and his name, whether it was translated to golf or basketball or whatever, it really demonstrated uh how powerful that can be in the association.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Leadership as well, right?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously he transformed the city as far as basketball's concerned.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: But he was a leader of that team, he was a leader of that franchise from a business perspective.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Did you learn a lot from him on that?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Was he that much of a real businessman and a leader in that way?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Did you learn from him?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I think you learned from his dedication and his attitude and the energy he brought to the meetings.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't he didn't put himself out as I know how to build a business, but he put himself out as I know competition, I know golf, I know the customer.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so I think, and I'm trying to set a standard.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think he was looking for really Chuck, who is the founder and others in the company, really to build the business around it.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: But he was really all about brand and image and what we're trying to do.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say taking that away is something that's carried through my career.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: The power of the customer, of the guest and listening to the customer is so important.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about that because I know people, customer, performance, all that stuff is really big for you.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get to that.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: When did you first realize?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe you've already answered it, that I think I've found the industry that I really want to, you know, plant myself into and really carry forward.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: When did you figure that out, golf?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I that that's good.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: I've never been a great golfer, but I've uh I've always spent uh time, I've always loved the game and loved everything about it.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think probably as soon as it started, I didn't realize.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: As I said, I'd worked for big organizations in the government.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I had seen some great leaders in the government.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: I actually, first internship when I was a junior in college was in the White House, but then President Bush when he was vice president at the time, and got to see people lead things.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I always thought I had a desire to lead organizations and lead teams.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think as soon as I made that leap from kind of big organizations, be it government or be it the law, into the small entrepreneurial with the Michael Jordan Golf, I was the, I think, third employee and did everything.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as we say, we sweep the sweep the floor at the end of the night and do contracts and you know, negotiate deals, uh, sponsorship deals and everything in between.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I really enjoyed that.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that, and as I always say, um, when you can go to work every day and the first 15 minutes is talking about what Tiger did on the weekend or what Michael did on the weekend, and it's actually work and it counts as work.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's when, you know, you know, uh, you know, you love it and you're willing to do it, you know, 24-7 because it's something you're excited about.
• 12:18
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• 12:25
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• 12:43
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• 12:54
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• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Ahead, premium headwear, apparel, and accessories, and the official headwear of the Tracks to Success podcast.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking with Steve Skinner.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: He's my guest on Tracks to Success.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: He is uh the man at Kemper Sports and a great leader and a powerful leader at that.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to talk about that for just a second.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: You joined Kemper Sports in 1998, but but if we go back to the climb and the journey that you just shared, what did you learn about yourself along the way that made you feel like you really had something that you could do?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because you just talked about leadership and you felt like you could be a good leader.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: What did you learn about you?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: I would say as much as anything, I learned from watching others.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I say, you know, how do you connect this journey together from politics to law to sports to Michael?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: And what I what it comes back to me is a lot, it's so much based on relationships.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: And what I tell young people, what I tell my kids, what I tell any young people that will listen to me is build those relationships as wide and deep as you can and make them real.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Don't make them transactional relationships, make them real relationships and care about it because you never know where that's coming back.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what drives business forward.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, as we start to have, if you start to have success in your career, when you first start managing people, you're not sure.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you don't, there's not really a school for it, right?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: You don't really know.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it is about developing relationships with people you work for, your bosses, your coworkers, people that work for you.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the team build.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I've always had this team approach.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: I enjoy being parts of teams and building teams.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think it really was, you know, when you're practicing law, I think it was probably when I worked for the government, when you're more part of a team and big organizations and having some success.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, as opposed to being a lawyer, you're a little more individualistic.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I made the leap and started hiring people and managing people uh and having some success.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's really a learning.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: And what I always say, I learned so much through the process from people I work for for, people I watched, but also for from people that work, you know, that I manage.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that the most interesting thing, I learned something every day, and I've learned so much from great hospitality people who really know how to deliver an experience, which I wasn't trained in, or from agronomists who cared deeply about the golf course, whatever it might be.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: I am so fortunate in what I do to spend time around leaders, and relationships is a word that gets used over and over.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Experiences is now a buzzword.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get into that a little bit as well.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: What I talk about in some of my workshops is my journey was networking my way to the network.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: So to get to golf channel, how do you do that?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: How do you make those relationships along the way?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things that I like to share with people, and I want your take on this, is the importance of continuing to network even when you believe or others might believe you've arrived.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like networking never stops.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: It might take different forms of connecting or staying connected with people when you want nothing from them.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Could you share your thoughts on that?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think you're exactly right.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I you took the words out of my mouth.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: The key is not anyone can network and use, try to use people for a business relationship or something.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's developing a deep relationship that's meaningful when you don't want anything from them, when you're sharing ideas.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: I I think the other thing you learn through relationships, and I learned this uh uh gentleman that Rich Williamson that I worked for in the law firm uh told me is information.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: When I first went to work in Washington, he was a longtime ambassador and worked in the Reagan White House.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: He said the first thing you should do when you go there, get in every chain of information you can, get in every meeting, because information that's what comes from relationships is knowing people, having a relationship, and just sharing information.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: And as I say, you never know, as you were saying, you never know where it may come back.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And there may be a day where maybe you need a favor, or maybe you just have a business idea, or maybe someone has information, knows a friend, says, you know what, this is how to really get a deal done.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I think the combination to get deals done, to grow business, relationships, information, and really understanding the other side of the table, what really is motivating them and what's driving them.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I believe relationships are really big for favors, sure, but they're really big for failures.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when things go wrong and being able to lean on people for advice and counsel and be transparent and vulnerable and getting people to help you in that regard, I think I think there's a lot of payoff in that.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I want to talk about Kepper Sports.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: You got there.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when you first got there, did you see this as this amazing place to grow?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Did you see this as the place?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you were going backwards, could you see yourself sitting in the chair you're in today?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you know, it was it was interesting.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't and I couldn't have foreseen the growth, although I was very excited.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Growing up in Chicago, Kemper Lakes was a uh famous golf course, was the first developed by you know Steve Lesnik and Jim Kemper as the really first country club for a day.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I knew of the golf course.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: I had a passion for golf.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember they they held uh one of the phrases, it was the old Grand Slam of golf, as you probably remember, when in the old days where they got the major winners, the first four major winners would come play in a charity event, just four of them.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I was out there for that, and I saw people walking around, and I do remember saying, that's the place I'd want to work, putting events on, doing stuff like that.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I couldn't have seen the growth I was excited about.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I first joined the golf business, it was uh probably in the middle of the tiger boom.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was 1994, 95, really the start of it.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there was a lot of growth in golf, but pretty quickly uh the industry grew too much.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: We built too many golf courses, so there were some lean years.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I, you know, I loved it.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: It was in Chicago, I loved the people.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Steve Lesnik gave me a lot of opportunities uh to do things, um, which as I say he probably shouldn't have it.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: When I joined here, I think I was 34 years old, and uh maybe I knew something about building golf courses.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I didn't know that much, but he threw me in the deep end and said, you know, go figure it out.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Was there anything about becoming CEO that you felt you were not fully prepared for?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: That was your biggest learning curve.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think the biggest learning curve, and and I had people advise me of this, is in any leadership position, whether you're a CEO or leading a big team, that how you show up every day and how you act, and whether you have a smile on your face or a frown on your face, is incredibly important.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you discount it.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: I tend to discount it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: What do people care if, you know, I well I had to walk the dog in the rain this morning, so I'm in a bad mood.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: But they are everyone's looking at you as the leader of an organization, and so it's incumbent upon you to, you know, have the positive attitude, bring good energy to the job, be a calming force when there's a crisis, not overreact, kind of all those things.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that was the learning that a couple people pulled me aside and said, you know, as you're leading an organization, you don't really have the right anymore to, you know, sulk or be in a bad mood because everyone's looking at you for leadership.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they look at you more when things are going wrong or when there's trouble than they ever look at you when everything's going great.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the the key to leadership, people talk about executive presence all the time, is how are you when it's not going well?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's where people want to see how you're gonna act.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because when things are going well, they want you to support them, cheer them on, give them resources.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Where people really need your help is when there's a crisis or when something's going bad.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's incumbent on the leader to be calmer than the rest of the group.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I hearken back, as I say, I've had this varied career.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the gentlemen I worked for in Washington, D.C.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: was uh Admiral Jim Watkins.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: He was a former chief of naval operations, a brilliant man, was a Navy nuke submariner, then went on to uh be Secretary of Energy at the Energy Department.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the energy department, including energy policy, was responsible for all the nuclear weapons labs and disposal in the whole country, 10,000 employees and billions of dollars.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, though, and he had obviously seen it all.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And there was some crisis at that time, and I worked, uh, had was working directly for him.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And what I noticed, and he could be a volatile person, and he was very demanding.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Commanding and very driving.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: But when a crisis came, he all of a sudden became the calmest person in the room.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: He never reacted to the crisis.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: He would, which always surprised me.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: I was 27 years old and learning.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden, when I would think, oh, Admiral Watkins, he's not going to be happy about this, he'd come to think and he'd be very calm and he'd be all about dissecting the problem.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: How are we going to solve it?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: How are we going to move forward?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And not getting caught up in the emotion of the day or the moment.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Follow me on this.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a good follow-up to it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: When I was chief communications officer at the LPGA, one of the one of the coolest things that I had the opportunity to do was work on the crisis communication plan.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: All the things that could potentially go wrong.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to go through all the scenarios, but you start to think about who's going to be in the room, what are we going to say?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the most valuable things in my mind about leadership, communication, all of that is what will people say about what we will say or what we will do, and being able to look ahead to think about that before we put our message out, before we do what we're going to do.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So as a CEO, take us through that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: How often do you think about outcome and work your way backwards?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Reverse engineering, if you want.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I so I think messaging, that's a great point.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think messaging is so important, whether it's internal messaging or external messaging of everything you do.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: It gets a bad rap sometime.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, everyone's trying to spin everything.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: You're not spinning thing, but you always have to look through the lens.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Whether it's a crisis or it's an initiative or it's a program, you may do great work, but if you're not telling the team about it, or you're not telling the guest or customer or client about it, it doesn't.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, and that is something as you look through the career.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not I'm not trained as you are in media and crisis management, but having spent the early part of my career both in politics and government, which it's all about messaging, right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Beginning, end of the day, that's all it is.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then in the legal field, which is a lot about messaging, it's a lot about persuading a jury, persuading, uh, working on a deal.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes that gets lost.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's important to do great work.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Great work is almost the table stakes, but you've got a message on top of that of this is why it's important.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I translate that all the way through.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: We spend a lot of time at Kemper Sports with our properties on brand and on brand messaging and on our brand commitments.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: And what is the message to the guest we're sending?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: What's the vision for the property?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: And what do we want our teams to deliver and feel with each guest interaction?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think kind of, you know, it was came Steve Lesnik, one of our founders, was also a public relations.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: He was trained public relations professional and brought a lot of that discipline as well.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I think you're exactly right.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're not necessarily you're making the right decision, doing the right thing, and then you're building the message around it.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: We never really want to start with, well, this is what we want to say, and let's build the decision behind it.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's really, but yeah, I think you have to think of how are we going to communicate, good, bad, you know, indifferent, how are we going to communicate to all the stakeholders?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to hosting this podcast, Craig leads the Cannes Advisory Group, empowering companies and individuals to elevate communication and build brand awareness with bold ideas, lasting impact, and his signature green shoe style.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: From company consulting and team workshops to one-on-one coaching and transformational virtual programs, Can Advisory guides people to communicate with greater clarity, confidence, and impact.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: So whether you're a leader looking to give your team a game-changing one-day experience or an individual who wants to become a speaker and presenter, people remember, visit CanAdvisory.com.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when you connect, mention the Tracks to Success podcast to receive a special discount on CanAdvisory Services.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's CanAdvisory.com.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now back to the interview.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Steve Skinner, my guest on Tracks to Success, the CEO of Kemper Sports.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to talk about experiences.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to go back to my time at the LPGA, and the goal was to add more tournaments, but we we always talked about it a little bit differently there under Mike Wan and our leadership team.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Weren't that concerned about always just adding tournaments?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: What we wanted to do was create great experiences.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do that, more of the tournaments will come and you can add to your schedule.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that is a big thing for you.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're in the golf business, but golf is an experience.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Please share how you incorporate that into your day-to-day, into your clubs, into your events, all that stuff.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great question.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so timely, as you said earlier.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's become a buzzword, but it's really something we've been talking about, you've been talking about for uh for decades.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think it starts with a couple things.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it starts with that the properties at the golf course.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: One, it starts with a clear vision.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Our most successful properties have a clear vision as to their customer, their guest, what they're trying to deliver and what they're trying to be.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um then it's getting the buy-in from the staff, and then it's listening.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's incredibly important to listen to the customer.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: There's a great quote.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Arthur Blank founded Home Depot, owns the Atlanta Falcons and half of Atlanta, wonderful uh businessman was quoted one time saying I watched him speak and said, you know, their secret to success at Home Depot was very simple.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: They, you know, ask the customer what they wanted, and then they tried to deliver on that.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: Listen to the customer.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think so much of that.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think some sometimes some businesses try to get into it, some golf courses try to be everything to everybody without a clear vision.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the most successful ones have, you know, clear vision.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: We've been very fortunate to uh work alongside Mike Kaiser at Bandon Dunes, which has been incredibly successful.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Mike gets all the credit uh for the vision.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I tell everyone, he was very clear at the vision he saw, the golf as it's meant to be, was a very clear uh vision for it.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: It may not be, you know, Lynx Golf may not be all things to everybody.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Some people may not get it, may not like it, but it's a different experience.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so having that clear vision, we've carried that through, whether it's at Streamsong Now or whether it's at the local uh municipal courses, and then it's diving deep into every touch point that the customer has.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we say we can sit here, you know, in the corporate office and pontificate about experience, but the experience is delivered at the backdrop.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: The experience is delivered at the halfway house.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: The experience in a lot of ways is is delivered at the front lines, at the team member, maybe the uh lowest paid team member in the whole company, but it's delivering that experience.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's hiring the right people, it's giving them the freedom to deliver that experience, to have fun with the guests and really, you know, living the brand, if you will.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: So people come to golf, and COVID changed it maybe a little for some people who hadn't come to golf.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: We all know about that, but people come to the game for various things.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna list the things that I think that they come for.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I want to know what you want them to come to the game for.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: So we we think there's a couple things.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it's really it's been we've had this great run in golf post-COVID.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: We're now six years post-COVID, it continues.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: The rounds grew 20% from 2019 to 2021, and they continue to grow two, three, four percent a year.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a couple of things are going on.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the short answer to your question, we want them to come for what they want to come for, but I think they're coming to the game for a couple of reasons.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what it's this emotional connection, um, connections that they're trying to make.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we now live in a world of Zoom calls like this.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Seven years ago, I would have flown down to Orlando and sat with you in a room.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: But Zoom calls, remote work, like so people are really seeking those emotional connections.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: All the research shows it.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: They're delivering it.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're delivering it through experiences, they're seeking experiences.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think they've got that, it's a good time now because everyone feels they've been through a lot, especially the younger generation's been through a lot, been through COVID, been through these wars, and they're entitled to spend on themselves and spend on these experiences.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, what we're trying to do is leverage all of that, which fits with what we do and really tap into their passion, uh, their passion for sport.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's golf.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: We also have a youth sports division where we're uh run facilities that manage uh youth sports tournaments and teams.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we say there's two to golfers are passionate, parents and youth athletes are very passionate.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: And we're trying to tie into that passion, and it doesn't have to be you don't have to be a four-handicap to be passionate about golf.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: Our mo, and you don't have to pay$300 around and travel to uh to San Valley or Stream Song to be passionate about golf.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, our some of our most passionate golfers are the local community golfers.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: So what we're really doing as a company everywhere, from our nine-hole$25 golf course to our destination resorts to our member clubs, is tap into that passion, understand what each guest wants.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: We're big believers in the local brand.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little different in Orlando, how we deliver service than we do in Chicago, how we make a hot dog in Chicago is different from anywhere else.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then try to build these communities around the experience.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the emotional connection.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: There's communities of golfers, communities of youth athletes, and be the place.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: We want to be everywhere we are, the place where people go.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Either they go on their family generational trip once a year, or they go every Tuesday with their buddies to play nine holes and have a couple beers.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Memories, experiences, story.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: I want to talk about story.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got three buddies from college.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: We've been going on a golf trip uh for years.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they benefited greatly from my time at golf channel, by the way.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um they have to pay, probably.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's terrible.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Everything's terrible.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Terrible.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, uh, so anyway, we were we were just on a on a trip.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: We kind of all got back together, and we we leave with stories.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: We spend our time telling stories.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I want to talk about the topic of storytelling from a corporate level.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um we used to discuss this at the uh LPGA.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: We've discussed it in any workshop that I conduct for companies.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know your story?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: As an individual, storytelling is very important.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: As a company, every company's got their story.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: But if the CEO and the head of communications, the head of marketing are the only ones that know the story, then you really don't have a story.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do you make it so that everybody at Kemper Sports knows the story of Kemper Sports?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you take that story and implement it to customer Craig Cann, who shows up to play with his buddies?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, it's it's probably maybe the hardest thing to do as you grow as an organization.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: We now have 240 properties of various types, 11,000 team members throughout the country.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we that deliver it?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: What does Kemper sports mean to them?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll take it.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've learned this from listening to uh communications professionals like yourself and marketers and others.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: As a leader of the organization, you have to repeat it over and over again.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: You may think you're like, why am I saying the same thing again?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's heard this before, but they haven't heard it.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you've got to be consistent in that message.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to be consistent for us.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's about passion, experience, community.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's about and getting that down to the front lines.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we we do a lot, we spend a lot of time, we have a proprietary true service training program.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's very simple in a lot of ways.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: We put every team member through it, and because the simplest, it's not about how to serve a drink or where to take the plate from the left or right.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's all attitudinal about being genuine, helpful, and friendly to the customer, uh, never saying no to the customer and just going out of way to make them happy.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're in it, we're very lucky.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: We're in a business where people come to have fun, whether they're having a wedding, whether they're having a bachelor party, whether they're just it's just their weekly foresome or their golf trip.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do we go about it?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: We have some amazing stories.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we free people up to do that, where you know, amazing stories at one of the resorts where someone was made a trip, it was a buddy trip like yours, they forgot their diabetic, they forgot their insulin.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um and they were going out to play golf and they didn't have it, and they told the story to uh one of the starters.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Starters said, Don't worry about it, you go play golf.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: By the time they got back, they had gone to the local, the doctor had called in, they'd driven 30 minutes to the local pharmacy, gotten the insulin, put a refrigerator in their room, the insulin there.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: The gentleman got off the golf course, you know, and he was set and he was just blown away.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: And no one told them or trained them, what do you do when someone forgets their insulin and they want to, they're on the trip of a lifetime.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: But they had that attitude of, no, we're here to serve our guests and you know make their day, you know, memorable.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's giving back people something better than they expected when they went there in the first place, right?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: How can you do that, right?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Differentiation.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, want to talk on the topic of growth for a quick second.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: You talked about the growth within the organization, the number of courses and clubs, etc.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, temper sports has grown significantly.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: How do you grow without losing the culture that it was founded on years ago?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's got to be a challenge.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's all it's an it's an incredible challenge.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's all in the hiring of people everywhere we go, and it's all in the team approach.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: We are we are big believers in a team approach.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: We have said over the years, we've had some very talented people in the organization who were not team players.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh no one made the decision that they couldn't fit the organization itself, because we built such a team culture, kind of spits it out as it's a foreign object in this organism that's growing.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's when you really have a culture.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you but I think the hiring isn't very important for us at all these 240 properties.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: The general manager is key.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so we will bring all the general managers through to Chicago.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: We, you know, jokingly call it the gauntlet, but we want them to meet as many people as possible.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: They want, we we want to hire them, we want to make sure they'll fit with the culture, but we also want them to know people so they don't feel like they're out on an island.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: So they know people are there to support them.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I think it's messaging, it's it's what you do, it not only how you act what you say, but it's how you act in times of crisis when people are struggling, and it's showing people that you care about them, that you care about the team.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Every, you know, it's not perfect.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: How you how you react when there's a problem uh at all levels of the organization, because we make mistakes every day.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and how you react.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's people, you can, you know, our business, it's again sounds cliche, but in our business, it's all about people delivering that experience because I can sit here and talk about it, but if it's not right now, it's being delivered, you know, thousands of times a day at the first T.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's hiring great people to be that greeter, it's hiring a great, you know, volleyball coach to run the volleyball tournament uh at one of the youth sports facilities.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: I talk a lot at golf courses.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've said this because I've I've had the opportunity to speak at multiple golf courses.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: And when I talk to their teams, I'll say, you know what?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody got a starter.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: You got a starter here, right?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're on the first team.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think clubs have it a little bit backwards.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think they need a closer, or at least they need to add a closer because that closer, how you end the day, is the ultimate end of the experience.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need somebody to tell me to have a good time.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have a great time.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: They might need to give me a T and a card, a scorecard.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end, you know, you're you're very big.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've listened to you.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're very big on customer experience and all that, but a closer, that's a big deal.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good idea.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of times that's the bartender.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and the thing, well, you know, one of the best experiences, I that's one of my favorite things.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: When you say, What do you love about the job and and people having fun?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: There is nothing better than sitting in the bar, sitting on the patio of any golf course and just listening.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: Just listening to the groups coming in, seeing the families, seeing multi-generational families.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's such a great sport.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, and on the youth sports side, seeing the kids and the group and the families get together.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I do like your closer.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's um that's a great uh idea, but no, you're exactly right.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why it's this holistic experience.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just the golf course has got to be in great shape, and that's obviously important, but it's the overall experience.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the the locker room attendant into private clubs probably has more impact on how your day is than, you know, whether the bunker was raked on the third hole.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: How do we deliver that fun, unique experience of what you're there for?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Looking for a guest speaker for your next event or annual conference, Craig brings an inspiring and empowering message your audience won't soon forget.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Visit Craigcanspeak.com to learn more and hear what audiences are saying about the green shoe experience making an impact at events across the country.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's Craigcanspeak.com.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when you connect, mention the Tracks to Success podcast to receive a special discount on your event with Craig.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, back to the show.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Steve Skinner, my guest on Tracks to Success, starting to wind it down.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Been a really fun conversation.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: I want to focus on you, and maybe we help some people along the way with my remaining questions.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I want to talk about your secret sauce and what's been the key in your mind to success.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: At times, a CEO, it can be a lonely job.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I hear anyway.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: I also know that it can be so fulfilling, and you talk a lot about people.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: What is your differentiator in your mind?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's a uh that's a good question.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: Hard, hard for me to answer.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like to uh talk about myself.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I you know, I've benefited um from having great people uh around me and hiring great people.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it comes to lead any organization.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a secret to success is being able to judge people and being able to hire good people that will be part of your team and um pull in the same direction.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I think, you know, I think that's I think that's key, having this innate sense and and trusting your God.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I think the other thing I've always in my career been willing to, you know, raise my hand, and I tell young people this all the time, and just take on new assignments, be in the room, be in the mix, um, get stuff, you know, be the the person, guy or gal, that can get something done.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you're not sure you can do it or how to do it, but to figure it out.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think that, you know, be available for the assignment and willing to jump in and spend a late night and work hard.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as you grow in the organization, I think the respect you get as a leader when the organization knows that you're working as hard as they are, that if there's a problem recess, you're gonna dive into the details.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the other, I benefit from listening a lot, asking a lot of questions.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: In I didn't, when I joined the business, I come from politics and a legal background, and I joined the business.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: I I didn't know anything about golf.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: As I said, my first boss in golf, Chuck Reeves, told me about developing golf.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: He'd worked for Jack Nicholas and and uh Bob Sharon developing golf resorts and golf communities.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: He taught me about that.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I I came here and learned from a lot of people who are delivering.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, you really want to be in the service business.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: There are some people that just innately are expert at it.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: So just listened and learned what true service means and how to deliver it.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, what's the secret sauce?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's, you know, having, you know, having great relationships with people, being able to assemble a great team, and then really listening and leaning on other people and not coming in thinking, you know, you know everything.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think people struggle at times of allowing their entire identity to be their career.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the first things that happens in my workshop is I have people write down.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Three things that I or anybody else need to know about you.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what happens, Steve?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: When they go up to speak on it or present it or share it, it is almost all the time, invariably goes to their career.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a really hard worker.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love leading people.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I go, okay, that's all great.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I asked, what do I need to know about you?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't say what do you so how do you keep your career from becoming your identity?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's a great job.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, it it's a great question, and and I don't, and I prioritize as hard as I've worked my career.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: I've always prioritized family and friends over it.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the most important thing to me is, you know, yes, having a great career, but it's it's the family relationships, as I say, the real pivot.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: Say what's the pivot in your life?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was uh getting my wife Annie to marry me 32 years ago.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how I did it, and she she engineered the pivot.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I've got two great uh kids, 29, Jack and Caroline, 29, and about to be 27.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, great brothers and sisters and brother-in-law and sister-in-law.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: We've stayed very close as a family, and that's really why you're doing this.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in a lot of ways, you're doing something to be fulfilled, you're doing, you're working to provide for your family, great, great friends and relationship, and and they're really a part of their career too.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I've spent as much time in my career, and it's so satisfying, bouncing every idea off my wife and off my kids.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because as I say, as they were, and they're a different generation now.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: So now they they are COVID golfers.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: So growing up, they didn't play golf.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: And coming out of COVID, they were both in college and they both picked up for the game of golf.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's they played every other sport but golf growing up.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's perfect now because they will give me advice of, hey, you really should do this.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: No, young people want this.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, I think it's making the identity not just about your work.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, yes, you're there for everyone 24-7, but taking the time to really spend time with you know, family, with your friends, and know that, you know, work will end someday.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, not for a while.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, I'm still young enough.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: But and, you know, what are you gonna be?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's cliche again, but what are you gonna be remembered for?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be remembered, you know, for your idea about XYZ golf course and you know, changing a hole or changing the uh the look of the lobby?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're gonna remember for your relationships.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: I know a lot of people, Steve, who are uber talented.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're super talented, but they're really scared to bet on themselves.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: They want to stay inside that comfort zone.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a risk that you're glad you took?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what advice would you give people who feel potentially stuck and don't know how to move?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I mean, the risk was, you know, going from I was on a path practicing law uh where I could have stayed and made a lot more money, probably made, you know, a lot more money over the course of my career.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and again, I give Annie credit for it, but making that pivot where some people, you know, thought you're crazy.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: People that knew me well, my friends and family said, oh no, that's exactly what you should do.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: But taking that risk um to, you know, jump the track on a career, which is something I knew I wanted to do.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it's hard to do.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: And saying I'm, you know, took a cut in pay and you know, was willing to do whatever at you know, 30 years old, 31 years old when I uh made the leap into the uh golf industry, but saying, you know, I don't need you know, a big infrastructure of this big law firm.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to do something I want to do.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I think that was probably the biggest risk.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: You look back at your career, are there other risks, you know, you should have taken?
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in business, it's really interesting.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think the thing I've learned over time, uh, and it's still things I work on.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: I like to analyze things and I like data, and you can't have all the answers to all the questions, right?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you have to make a decision and take a risk based on your gut and based on, you know, the people that work for you and your teammates' gut.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I say oftentimes we've made some big acquisitions, you know, we were family-owned for a long time.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: We brought on some capital partners four years ago, really exponentially grown the company.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: We're four, four or five times larger than we were four years ago, based in large part on their capital.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: We so we took some big risks, and I had the confidence to do it because some of the people who were here are here and worked with long time.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: They had real conviction.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: And if I look at one of the key people in our team and they've performed well in the past, and they say, Steve, this is gonna work, trust me.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I may have misgivings, but you've got to bet on them as well.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're betting on yourself, you're betting on your judgment of I've hired the right people to move us forward.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Good stuff.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Last question.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if anybody does research on you and anybody that knows you, uh, I certainly know you and know of you.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're one of the most powerful uh people in sports and golf business.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: As you look at your legacy, if we took out powerful, Steve Skinner is one of the most blank people in the golf and sports business.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: What's the word you'd put in there?
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: I would say you're really pushing me on these hard questions.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: I would say he's one of the best teammates in the golf business.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's that's what I would want the legacy.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's you know, as I said, you as you grow in an organization and as you reach certain titles and you get awards, and I always hearken back.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, these are individual awards, but in any organization like this, I've you know, uh been here a long time, 28 years.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully had some impact and and uh some part of the success, but there's so many people, and it really is a team.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what you know I'd be wanting.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's one of the most hardworking teammates we've had.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're one of the best guests I've had.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's always fun to have somebody with the golf side of it uh join the program.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, can't thank you enough.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I hope we get a chance to spend some time together doing something else.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, I uh I hope so as well.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to see you again and thanks for uh all you do for sports.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and I love uh this program you do and uh and uh all the parts of it.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's really, really interesting.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: So appreciate everything you've done for golf over the years and advancing uh the message of how great golf can be.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Steve.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: One last segment I call Getting Ahead, which is focused on you and your own tracks to success.
• 51:14
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• 51:21
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• 51:25
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• 51:30
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• 51:36
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• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: They don't follow the trends for more than 30 years.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: They've been steadying them.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's time for getting ahead.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: You heard Steve's story.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hope you enjoyed it.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting track to success.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Lawyer, golf, executive, CEO.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: Not exactly a straight line, and maybe that's the lesson here.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly what I want to talk about.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: We sometimes believe success requires having the entire journey mapped out.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's got to go exactly this way the right degree, the right job, the right plan.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the best opportunities actually show up when we're willing to look beyond the plan.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope the interview is actually a reminder that a detour is not necessarily taking you off that track.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's putting you on the right one.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a question for you to consider Are you so committed to that path that you planned that you might miss the opportunity you didn't see coming?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Are you able to actually think about changing direction, having the courage to take the turn?
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know what?
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes opportunity shows up when you're not expecting it at all.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that can actually lead to getting ahead.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: And tracks to success might just be a whole lot easier.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: So think bigger.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Don't always go with the plan.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: Let the plan come to you.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, I'm Craig Cann.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to subscribe for more great interviews and Craig's insights on reaching your highest personal and professional summit.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to Tracks to Success on all the top podcast platforms.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Watch it on the Craig Cannes YouTube channel and visit CraigCanspeak.com to learn more about Craig as your next speaker.