Latest / Beautifully Complex / 281: Raising Healthy Gamers, with Dr. Alok Kanojia, MD MPH

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281: Raising Healthy Gamers, with Dr. Alok Kanojia, MD MPH · Beautifully Complex

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: What we sort of think about is unhealthy gaming is
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: their core psychological and neurological needs, which we kind of
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: lay out in how to raise a healthy Gamer. And
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: when these needs are met by the video game instead
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: of real life, that's unhealthy gaming. And the goal of
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: healthy gaming is to build a life that is satisfying
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: all of your needs, and then gaming is recreation.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Hello everyone,
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am so very excited
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: to have doctor k with me of Healthy Gamer, and
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about all things technology and mental
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: health and all of these concerns that are so so
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: common for parents, especially neurodivergent kids. I see a lot
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: of neurodivergent kids leaning into gaming and online worlds, maybe
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: a little bit more than neurotypical kids, and so it's
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: a really relevant conversation. It's something I get asked about
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: constantly and my work with parents. So I'm so happy
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: to have you here, doctor Kay, to share expertise. Will
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: you start by letting everyone know who you are and
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: what you do.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Sure, thank you so much for having me, Penny. I
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: think it's a beautiful podcast here that you're run. And
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I think resources specifically for neurodivergent parenting are so worthwhile
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: and so important nowadays.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: So I'm a recovering gaming addict myself.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: So I played a ton of video games when I
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: was growing up, probably was on the ADHD spectrum or
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: still am so arguably was nerdiverse myself, never really got
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: tested or anything, and then developed a bunch of like
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: compensatory mechanisms. So I did okay like through high school,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: but really ran into problems in college. Played a ton
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: of video games, was gaming sixteen to twenty hours a day.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Basically failed out of college after about two years, and
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: then I went to India to go find myself.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: And my parents had tried everything.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: They had tried, like you know, discipline and a lot
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: of love and support, and they just didn't really know
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: what to do. And so went to India studied to
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: become a monk, for about a summer and then decided
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: to become a monk. So I followed that path for
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: about seven years and then walked away from that path
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: when I met my wife, so the whole monk thing
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: and celibacy thing wasn't going to work out. And then
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: decided to go to med school, so I became a psychiatrist.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: I did my psychiatry training at Harvard Medical School, and
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: then really when I was training to become a psychiatrist,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: started asking questions about video game addiction. This was like
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: back in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, and I was really
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: concerned about this as a problem.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: I had lived with it myself.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I had seen it a lot with my like online
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: friends that I used to play games with, and so
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: was really stunned when I sort of noticed the field
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: wasn't taking this like incredibly seriously. At the time, in
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: the United States, we had an opioid epidemic and so
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: that's where everyone was kind of focusing.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: But I was really worried about this.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: So I started working on video game addiction about ten
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: years ago now, and then when I finished my psychiatry training,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: started working with gamers on the internet. So I started
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: streaming on the Twitch platform, which is like actually an
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: online gaming platform about how to develop healthy habits around
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: technology and mental health.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: So we grew very rapidly.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: We were the fastest growing stream on Twitch, and now
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: we have an online community of you know, anywhere from
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: one hundred thousand to six million people in one hundred
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: and twenty one countries across the world that are all
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: about focusing on their mental health and healthy gaming.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I like the term healthy gaming because you're
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: not saying that gaming is bad that people should quit gaming.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: It's finding balance.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So I think for some people that balance
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: may be impossible to find. But I think that see,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: if we look at our models of addiction, we tend
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: to think that sobriety is like what we need to do.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: So if you have an.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: Alcohol problem or an opioid problem, like sobriety is the answer.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I think when you look at behavioral addictions that are
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: not substances, not discrete chemicals, so things like you know,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: sex addiction, or technology addiction or shopping addiction. Yeah, I
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: don't think we can have someone you know, never engage
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: in human relationships or never purchase anything. Again, So when
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: it comes to our behaviors. I think that generally speaking,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: the goal is balance and that's very true of technology
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: for sure.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, and it's pervasive, it's everywhere, like it.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: I think it takes mindfulness to find that balance now.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Absolutely right, which is a big part of it.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: I think what resonates with the online gaming community is
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: the whole years of training to become a monk, and
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: that really goes a long way.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, talk a little bit about gaming addiction for us,
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Will you define it? Because I think that parents tend
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: to go to the addiction narrative pretty quickly when they're concerned,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: and it's hard for us to find that line. Where
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: is the line between healthy gaming and unhealthy or even
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: further down addiction? Right?
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's such a great question, Penny. So there
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: are a couple of things. First, let's start with like
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: sort of the psychiatric definition. So a big part of
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: my practice is addiction psychiatry. So when we're talking about
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: what crosses the line into an addiction, well, when something
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: starts to interfere with your function or your life in
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: a significant way, that's when we call it an addiction. Okay,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: so if it negatively impacts your academic life, your professional life,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: your social life, your physical health, or your mental health.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: So when the gaming, you know, keeps you from making friends,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: when you start to really see your grades drop, maybe
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: not from a's to b's, but you know a's to cs,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: when it's really impacting your function, when you're not able
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: to leave the room, when you have difficulty getting out
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: of bed. You know, this is when we really think
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: about something as an addiction. Okay, now, in my opinion,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: I mean that can be relevant, but I think what
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: most parents are dealing with is some version of addiction.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: And our goal is to create balance.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Right So, even if it doesn't cross the threshold of addiction,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: if it's still somewhat unhealthy, that should still be acted upon. Right, So,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: you know, our goal is not just to avoid addiction.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: It's let's develop a healthy relationship with technology that your
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: child can then grow with so that when you, as
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: a parent are a little bit more out of the picture,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: your child is independent and stable enough to be able
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: to like handle technology on our own.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: That's ultimately our goal.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: And that's so important. I talk a lot with parents
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: about setting up strategies and scaffolding support and stuff in
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: a way that you can remove yourself from the middle.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Our goal as a parent is to create individual adults
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: who can be self reliant, and so we often just
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: want a man everything, because I think that's human nature.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: And so thinking about how do we remove ourselves as
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: we're setting things up is so so valuable to talk
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: to us a little bit more about the concept of
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: a healthy gamer. What does that look like?
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a great question.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: So we kind of lay this out in a fair
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: amount of detail in how to raise a healthy gamer.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: So I think that if we look at video games,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: what they do is activate certain parts of our brain.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: And as video games have become more addicted, they have
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: activated more parts of our brain. So back in the day,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: when I was growing up, I used to play the
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Nintendo Entertainment System. There was no online component, there was
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: no friend component, there was no online community. So then
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: what happened is game developers realized, Oh, the game would
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: be more fun if you could play it with all
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: of your friends. The game would be more fun if
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: you could play it with people across the globe. It
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: used to be that games would just activate like our
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: dopaminergic circuitry and give us pleasure. And joy and fun,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: but then it started activating our social circuitry. And so
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: what happens with unhealthy gaming is that we have all
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: of these psychological and neurological needs, these drives, these different
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: parts of our brain, and the reason that these parts
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: of our brain exists is to help us function in
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: the real world. So unhealthy gaming is when our biological
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: and psychological needs are being fulfilled by the game instead
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: of real life. So when our soul source or primary
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: source of social interaction is not the real world, that
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: becomes a problem because even though I can have a
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: real friend on the internet, I can never hug them.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: If I never hug them, I will never secrete oxytocin.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: And oxytocin is a hormone that forms bonding, It improves
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: mental health, it lowers our stress level. So what's happening
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: in the virtual world is we're getting like fake versions
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: of the real thing, but it scratches our brains itch
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: kind of in this way where like it sort of
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: does half the job. So what happens with unhealthy gaming
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: is most people, these people, their sense of identity, their
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: online relationships, even their brains natural desire to grow and
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: progress is being satisfied through the video game. But they're
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: not growing and progressing in real life. They're growing and
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: progressing in the video game, which has no value the
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: moment that you stop playing the video game. So what
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: we sort of think about is unhealthy gaming is their
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: core psychological and neurological needs, which we kind of lay
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: out in how to raise a healthy gamer. And when
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: these needs are met by the video game instead of
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: real life, that's unhealthy gaming. And the goal of healthy
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: gaming is to build a life that is satisfying all
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: of your needs. And then gaming is recreation. Gaming is fun.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Gaming is something you do on night, something you do
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: on weekends, something you do to have a good time.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I still play video games. I have a six year
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: old and eight year old, one of whom is probably neurodiverse.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: We still play video games. And it's about building a
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: healthy life and then having gaming on the side.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And what do you tell parents who are
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: really struggling with that, who are really struggling to not
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: only teach their kids that healthy gaming lifestyle, but to
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: get them to pull back, like we struggle so much.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: And I know that part of that is what you've
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: already mentioned. You know, their brain is getting things that
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: make it feel good, and as all humans do, we
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: want to lean into that. But we struggle with how
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: do we get kids to recognize maybe, yeah, that it
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: isn't healthy if they're not doing other things.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: So this is where things are going to sound kind
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: of weird. So what we try to tell parents is
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: that a lot of the language that you use, Penny,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: is so commonly used, and.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: That's the problem. How do I get them too yep? Right?
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: So if you sort of think about it in this relationship,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: even those words are like how do I yank my
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: child into understanding?
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: So what we actually advocate for and remember that the
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: majority of people I've worked with are actually your kids, right.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: So I was talking directly to the gamers, and then
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: we developed a program for parents where we took everything
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: that I learned working with thousands, hundreds of thousands of
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: gamers and then taught it to the parents and it's
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: been very effective. So I think the biggest thing is
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: that if you look at the issue right now, it's
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: parents trying to get your child to do something. There's
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: no independence on the part of the child, there's no
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: understanding on the part of the child. So what we
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: actually advocate for, and I agree with your approach one
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: hundred percent, that our goal is parents, is to create
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: children who are independent, and so how do you do that?
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: So the first thing that you do is you take
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: a step back from limit setting, which is really confusing
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: for parents. So what we advocate for is for one
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: to two months, and this is laid out like week
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: by week with sample dialogue and all these kinds of
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: obstacles you're going to run into in the book. So
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: what we do is we say, for the first month
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: or two, just talk to your kid.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: So a lot of.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Times we as parents are trying to institute changes without
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: understanding what is the drive for the addictive behavior. So
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: we're trying to take this game away because we see
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the damage it's causing, and it is causing damage, but
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: we don't know what the benefit of the game is.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: And as long as the game is doing something for
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: your child, it's going to be really hard.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: To take away.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So even in addictions, whether you're talking about like
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: alcohol addiction or marijuana addiction, the reason that addictions are
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: such problems is not because they're problems, it's because they're solutions.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: They're very good solutions.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: As long as I'm drinking, I don't feel my negative emotions.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: I don't have to worry about my problems. I was
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: working with someone who is addicted to opiates and their
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: life was literally falling apart. They were in the middle
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: of like divorce proceedings, they were on probation at their job.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Their kids hated them, and I was like, I don't understand, Like,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: why don't you just stop? This is ruining everything in
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: your life. And they laughed and they said, well, I
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: don't think you understand, Doc, It's not ruining everything in
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: my life. When I'm high on opiates. It's the only
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: time my life is okay, right because everything is falling
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: apart except when I'm high, and then all those problems disappear.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: So addictions are solutions in addition to being problems. So
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: as a parent, what we advocate for is spend a
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: month or two just talking to your child about what
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: do you like about the video game, what's hard about
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: the real world, and what's easy about the video game,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: And then what we want to do is find some
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: kind of common ground where what's something that you want
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: to change in the real world. Your kid may not
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: care about grades, but maybe they care about making friends
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: or not having friends, or they feel embarrassed about the
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: way that they look. So once we find something that
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: is important to your child, that's going to be kind of.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: The first step that we take. So let's work on that.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: So the other thing that we recommend, So first thing
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: that we recommend to parents is take a step back,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: spend a month or two just talking to your child
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: and disarm that defensiveness. Because the other thing that we
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: tend to see a lot of is that when you
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: talk to your child about gaming, it's always a battle.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: They're on the defensive and you're on the offensive. So
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: we have to disable that because you all need to
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: be working on the same team. Yes, this is something
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: I've learned working in addiction psychiatry. You can't be sober
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: for someone else, right. I've seen spouses try to be
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: sober and try to enforce sobriety on their partner who's
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: an alcoholic. Like, their heart has to be in it.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: So the crux of our strategy is helping your child's
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: heart be in the right place. Let their own motivation,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: instead of fighting against yours, be aligned with yours, and
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: then the two y'all are then on the same team,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: and the moment that y'all get on the same team,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: that's when things get easier and so much better, and
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: that's when we see the best outcomes. Absolutely, so, spend
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: a month or two just talking to your kid about
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: what their challenges are and try to pick something that
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: they want to fix in the real world. Another thing
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: that we sort of recommend, which a lot of parents
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: really struggle with, is like, this is a long term, sustainable,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: slow solution. Most parents will try to institute very harsh limits,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: like no more gaming or no gaming this weekend. What
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: we sort of think about is like, you know, a
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: one percent trajectory change over the course of like eighteen
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: months or two years will lead you in a completely
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: different place. You know, if I'm crossing the ocean and
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: I'm one degree off course, I'm going to end up
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: in a completely different place. So we recommend that parents
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: really go slow and they really foster independence. We see
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: good progress start to happen in about two to three months,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: and then oftentimes it takes like a year or two
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: to really get to where we want to go. And
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: oftentimes parents don't think about this as a okay, This
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: is like a seven hundred.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: Day thing that I'm doing.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: I'm embarking on a seven hundred day adventure with my child, right.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: We want to see progress.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: We see the f on their transcript today, we see
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: them getting into a fight at the playground today, and
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: we want to fix that within thirty days.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: So slow and sustainable is kind of our approach.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's I think the only way to make
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: behavior change, honestly. Yeah, you know, I talk about the
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: same thing like you're not gonna flip a switch and
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: everything's gonna be different. We're talking about a long term process.
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• 19:20
  Speaker 2: One thing that really came up as you were talking
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: for me is a focus on relationship with your child.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: We talk a lot about how the relationship with your
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: child guides everything, and that dynamic can be so fractured
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: when you're fighting with your kid over screens or gaming
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: or anything else. You know, I always remind myself what
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: I resist will persist. Right where we put our energy,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: it's going to come back. And if it's in that
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: negative space of battling, then we just get stuck with
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: our kids and we create a worse relationship. We're deteriorating
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: that relationship, and then everything is going to fall apart.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's and it's especially challenging if we're
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: talking about neurodiverse kids. So I think that this is
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: where you know, we see this a lot. And I
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: want to say, like, we don't have hard and fast
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: statistics about this, but I want to say that twenty
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: to thirty percent of our community is neurodiverse, So like
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: just very very high numbers of people who are neurodiverse,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: and you know, maybe in the general population it's like
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: under ten percent. So what we tend to see is,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: first of all, parents can have great relationships with their
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: kids except when it comes to gaming their kids. A
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: little angel listens, is great, is kind, except when it
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: comes to gaming. Yeah, And this is so true of neurodiversity,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: because neurodiversity is a vulnerability for video game addiction. I
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: think the other challenge that we tend to see is that.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: You know, sometimes kids who are on the autism spectrum
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: or have ADHD their capacity to really see the problems
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: that they're gaming causes. It seems to be in paired
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: compared to neurotypical kids. There's a certain obsessiveness on the
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: autism spectrum. You know that that's just like I hear
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: from so many parents, that's just all he wants to
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: do all day long, right, Like, I mean he can
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: do it for four hours and hour number five, like
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: he never gets bored of it, right, And I think
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: we see that there are a couple of intersectionalities. So
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: the first is if we look at kids on the spectrum,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: you know, the real world is very confusing because some
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: of their empathic circuits, some of their ability to read
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: social cues, pay attention to tone, body language, those are
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: a little bit impaired. Most of us don't ever get
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: taught the rules of how to live life. So it's
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: very appealing to the neurodiverse brain to spend my time
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: in a computer or a video game where like all
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: the rules are laid out, the rules are same for everybody,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: and I can understand the rules. The world is structured,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: whereas you know, I'm just thinking about, you know, my marriage,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: and it's like I can ask my wife, Hayes, is
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: everything okay? And she's like, yeah, everything's fine, but it's
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: not right. So the real world is so confusing, and
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: some of our brains are sort of adapted to handle that,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: and some of our brains really struggle with some of
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: those things. So the virtual world is so much more
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: appealing and comfortable if you're on the autism spectrum, because
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: everything is laid out. Even if we look at simple
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: things like communication, it's all over text. There's no facial expression,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: there's no body language, there's you know, it's all like
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: it's literally text. On the flip side, what we see
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: on ADHD is that these are kids who struggle to
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: have their attention held in place. So everyone tells me,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: like when I was growing up, my teachers would always
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: tell my parents, oh, if he just applied himself, he
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: would do so much better. If he just tried harder,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: he would do so he's so smart if he just
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: tried harder. But my brain couldn't focus, I couldn't try
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: it harder. I was trying very hard to get to
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: know mediocre performance. And then along comes a video game
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: that does all the attentional work for you. I don't
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: have to struggle to pay attention into a video game. Right,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: there are bright sounds, there are I mean, you know,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: vivid sounds, bright colors, all these kinds of sensory input
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: that keeps me glued. And kids are with ADHD, they
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: can play games for like, you know, ten hours at
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: a stretch. And so if you really look at the
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: experience of the child, it's very like it's awesome. Like
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: we all love getting lost in a movie, getting lost
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: in a book, getting lost in a video game. You know,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: we love getting lost in something. And for a child
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: with ADHD, the real world you can't get lost in. Right,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: You're struggling to pay attention, you're struggling to you know,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: understand what's going on. Your mind keeps wandering. You don't
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: get to relax into something. Even being sitting in a
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: classroom is a lot of work. You're not just sitting
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: and relaxing, whereas a video game offers you an effortless
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: way to focus your mind and get lost in something.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: So that in and of itself is incredibly addictive. Yeah,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: so we see that.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of intersectionality that you know, once parents understand,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: once you understand what's going on with your child. I've
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: seen this both as a doctor, you know, and as
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: a you know, gamer, that once a parent understands what's
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: going on with the child, their ability to parent becomes
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: far more effective.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: So we try to lay that stuff out.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, with anything, when you understand what's going on in
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: driving it or triggering it, yep, then you can actually
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: affect change.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Right, if we just avoid that information, if we don't
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: gather that information and get curious, we can't really affect change.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Like you were saying earlier, you know, we try to
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: impose our will as parents, and stop doing that. Get
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: off of that right now. You shouldn't be spending that
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: much time on that. And the key is understanding why
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: it's happening so that we can address that. Why.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, I want to talk.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: A little bit about the intersection of gaming and mental health.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: We are certainly seeing a drastic increase in anxiety among
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: young people, and I know that there are some correlations
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: between social media and anxiety, and I would imagine in
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: the gaming world there's some mental health challenges too. I mean,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: there's mental health challenges with addiction. Yeah, So there's a
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: lot there, I think to unpack. What do you want
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: to let parents know?
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: So there's a huge intersection between gaming and anxiety, and
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: if we really want to understand this, we really have
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: to look at the brain science. So if you look
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: at the effect of gaming on anxiety, it is, in
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a short term way, very good. So the parts of
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: our brain that experience anxiety, this is like our amygdala
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: in our olympic system. These parts of the brain are
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: artificially shut off anytime we play a video game.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: So this was something that I experienced a lot of
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: when I was like literally failing out of college. As
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I was like terrified, I was like, oh my god,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: I'm failing out of college.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: What's going to happen? What's going to happen? What's going
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: to happen?
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: I felt such a gigantic amount of anxiety that it
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: was unmanageable. So what do you do? You self medicate?
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: That's what all brains do. My brain figures out. Okay,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: when I play a video game, I'm not thinking about
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: the future. I'm just focused on this match and dumpstering
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: this guy that I'm fighting against, right, Like, that's all
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: I care about. So when we play video games, that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: artificially suppresses our negative emotional circuitry, which means we feel better.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: This is why recreational activities can help us feel better.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: The problem is that this creates a cycle, so the
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: moment I stop playing the video game, all of the
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: anxiety comes rushing back. The second problem that we run
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: into is that anxiety is actually a powerful motivator. There's
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: a reason why we've all evolved to feel anxiety because
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: anxiety is what warns us about danger and hopefully helps
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: us take corrective action. So when we start playing games,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: the problem is that that anxiety is no longer serving
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: its purpose of actually fixing a problem, so we make
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: the anxiety go away, and then the problem actually gets worse.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: And as the problem gets worse, this is what happened
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: with me. As the problem gets worse, my emotion get
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: more out of whack. The more my emotions get out
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: of whack, the more I need to play video games
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: to manage them. So then this creates a vicious cycle
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: where anxiety gets worse, we become more dependent on gaming,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: and then the problems don't get solved, so then the
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: problems get worse. Then the anxiety gets worse, and it
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: basically becomes like kind of an unsolvable situation. The other
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: problem that happens when we play lots of video games,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: and we're seeing this more now than I think even
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I experienced, is that as developing brains play video games,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: their capacity to self regulate starts to get rusty. So
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: I've noticed that people who play a lot of video games,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: they don't develop an alternative way to manage their anxiety,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: So anxiety feels more raw and more intense for them.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: And what parentcye is that you'll see your kid is
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: anxious and you're like, I wonder why this is, And
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: it's because their brain hasn't learned a way to manage that.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like if we take the elevator all
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: the time, we're going to have difficulty climbing the stairs.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: And we're seeing the same thing that the body is
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: becoming brain is becoming deconditioned with dealing with anxiety.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, so much there. Yeah, that self medicating piece
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: is huge, you know, it's huge, and that escape is
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: like helpful on the one hand, but as you're explaining,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: it's not in the long term, it makes you feel
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: better right now, it doesn't help in the long term.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: And I will say, like my son, he's twenty one
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: and neurodivergent and a heavy gamer, and he has now
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: been starting to finally come to these realizations on his
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: own and really engaging with the fact that, oh I
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: feel better when I hang out with people in person. Yeah,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I feel different. This feels good, Like, you know, he's
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: finally able to reflect and recognize that and then act
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: on it. And it's amazing. It's a struggle because it's
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: coming so late, but neurodivergent individuals as kids are developmentally delayed.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: So yeah, while you know he was born twenty one
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: years ago, a lot of that functioning stuff is still
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: lagging behind that. But just seeing that he's finally getting
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: it is so powerful. And that's what I think the
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: message here is for parents is that it can't be
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: about what we want. It can't be about our own
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: anxiety about our kids gaming. They have to recognize and
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: want a healthier way for themselves.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what we sort of advocate for, right
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: And when we started streaming, like you know, our core
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: audience was young men between the ages of twenty and
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: twenty seven and what our core audience was is these
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: people who are just like your son, who realize, hold
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: on a second, even though gaming relieves my anxiety, I
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: much prefer if the problem itself is fixed, that is
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: such a better solution. And so kids will start to
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: learn this stuff at some point, right, and we want
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: to foster that self understanding. And the problem is that
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: there's something interesting that parents do where we kind of
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: shoot ourselves in the foot because the more responsibility we
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: take for the situation, the more we say, okay, no
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: more gaming, and you got to do this, you got
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: to do this, you got to do this. You aren't
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: actually fostering independence, you're doing the opposite. And then parents
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: create this vicious cycle where unless I am on top
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: of them twenty four to seven, they'll start to gain.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: And the more on top of them you get, the
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: less independent they become. And this becomes a real problem
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: when once again we're talking about neurodiversity. So there's a
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: large part, you know, one third of the one fourth
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: of the book is about boundary setting. So it's you know,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: we sort of combine these two things where it's about
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: you know, building a relationship and helping their understanding. But
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: then there are also some evidence based techniques which work
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: really well for people who are on the spectrum and
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: people who have ADHD, people who have anxiety about how
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: can you set boundaries and enforce boundaries to culltivate the
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: right behavior. And I think if we're looking at it
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: from a scientific standpoint, you know, we want that alliance building,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: we want that you know, focus on understanding, but then
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: we also want to use good evidence based boundary setting
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: techniques so that we can encourage the right behavior sort
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: of like, and we've got to use both because for
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of parents, especially parents of younger kids, parents
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: of children who are neurodiverse and a little bit developmentally delayed,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: they're not mentally in a place where they can understand
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent, So then how do you deal with that?
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: And that's all kind of laid out too.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So next steps for parents after listening to this obviously,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: you know, get the book, en roll in your parent
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: course at Healthy Gamer. But while they're learning more and
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: taking on that process, what can they go ahead and
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: start doing right now today?
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I would say just the most simple thing
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: to start with is talk to your child about what
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: they enjoy about gaming and talk to your child about
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: what they don't enjoy about the real world. So when
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: you can bring those two things together, when you can
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: make the real world a safer place for your child,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: the natural drive to play video games goes down. So
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: we get addicted to video games when we have a
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: life that is not worth living.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: That's why we need this virtual world.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: But the moment that our life is full of challenge
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: and joy and accomplishment, that's when the game loses its appeal, right,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: And so I think just starting by understanding what is
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: hard with your child's real life, like what's hard in
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: the real world, and helping them solve those problems will
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: slowly reduce the gaming on its own. And that's really
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: what our goal is is help your kid, you know,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: be socially successful, academically successful, professionally successful, physically healthy, be
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: happy about their appearance. And the more that we do
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: those kinds of things, they don't need to fear the
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: real world anymore. And then as we spend more time
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: doing those things, we're going to naturally spend less time gaming.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, So CAPE on helping them to feel safe
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: in the world absolutely, which is quite the challenge when
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: you're nerdivergent. Yeah, so it's a very very appropriate message
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: for everyone listening here. Thank you so much, doctor K
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: for sharing some of your time and wisdom with us.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: I really really appreciate that. I will have links for
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: doctor K's book, course, website, social media, all that good
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: stuff will be linked up in the show notes at
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot Com Slash two eight one for
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: episode two hundred and eighty one. I strongly encourage everyone
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: listening to go and learn more from doctor K and
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: the work that he's doing, because this is what I
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: think what parents are searching for. These are some of
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: the insights and answers and guidance that parents are really
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: searching for. So thank you again. I appreciate you and
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: all the work you're doing in the world.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Likewise, Penny, I think it's you know, it's so challenging
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: to parent a child who's neurodiverse, and I think the
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: work that you're doing to really support this group of
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: parents because you know their life ain't easy. You know,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: the children are beautifully complex, right, These children are just
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: as beautiful and amazing as any other child out there.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: It's just we need to understand a little bit more
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: about how to support them and bring that kind of
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: beauty and amazing this out.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: So thank you for doing that work.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you. With that, we will end this episode take
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: don't forget to check out my online courses and parent
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at The
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Behavior Revolution dot com