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Oregon's EPR Appeal, Lighting and Food Safety, and Smarter Inhalers: End of the Line · Through the Line: Packaging and Processing

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Through the Line, the podcast exploring innovations and information across the packaging and processing landscape.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: From topics impacting consumer packaged goods and healthcare packaging to the latest technologies in food processing operations.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_05: Hi, and welcome to the End of the Line video podcast.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_05: I'll be handling the hosting duties this week.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_05: Sean Riley, editor-in-chief of OEM magazine.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_05: As always, I'm here with my colleagues as we walk you through some of the things that we're talking about or that have come across our desk this week.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_05: I have Liz Cunio from Healthcare Packaging.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_05: I have Derek Teal from Pro Food World, and of course Matt Reynolds from Packaging World.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_05: So let's see who we're gonna have started off this.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_05: So I know there's been some appeals.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_05: There's been some some legal appeals about some things that we've talked about on the on the podcast for the last couple weeks.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_05: So we might as well start off there, Matt.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_05: Apparently you came back with an appeal up there in the great northwest.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right in the nick of time.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: I had a 30 days to do it, and I think they got it in yesterday.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, just to a little primer on where we left off in 2021, Oregon passed its 20 its EPR law, which extended producer responsibility.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: That didn't go live until July of last year.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Same as uh similar to a lot of EPR producers who are CPGs, brand owners, they pay fees, and the fees then fund the recovery and recycling systems, all the infrastructure that needs to be there for circularity.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Wrapped up in the who is a producer was the National Association of Wholesale Distributors.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: They're distributors, they're not brand owners.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: They have some private label brands, but they're and that's what got them caught up in in being considered producers or obligated producers.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: They also have, even if they're not producing the product itself, they use a lot of pallets and stretch wrap just to move freight from state to state.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that's all packaging.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how this small subset got caught up in that group.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So they sued.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't want to be part of, they didn't want to pay these fees that they didn't believe they owed.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: So two constitutional claims went to a five-day trial in July.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: One of the claims was due process.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oregon basically handed over the fee setting as a lot of these do to a pro, which is a producer responsibility organization.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: And those are private.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're private nonprofits, and their boards tend to be full of the usual big brand owners who technically on the sub on one in one way of looking at it compete with the wholesale distributors who have their own private label brands.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: So kind of the idea there is maybe the brand owners are putting their thumb on the scale a little bit.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: But that the fee burden is the other one, is the the commerce clause is the bigger one where it the idea is that it puts uh undue burden on businesses crossing state lines.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the two constitutions that were going into it.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: So long preamble.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Cut to about a month ago, Judge Michael Simon he ruled, and Oregon won on both and page ruling and NAW, the wholesalers, didn't actually win on a single point.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: But the due process, this is what Judge Simon said, the due process claim failed because, and this is one that struck me as tenuous at best, that nobody actually is forced to join the CAA Circular Action Alliance.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's the pro that we talked about.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can form your own.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: But realistically, that's not really a it's not in the realm of reality.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: It would be cost prohibitive for individual members of NAW to create their own pro and even just to apply for it is millions of dollars in months just to apply for it.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: But Judge Simon's ruling was basically it's not likely, it's not practical, but it's not impossible.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of that gets us to today.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: So this morning, or actually yesterday, appealed to the Ninth Circuit.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is what everybody expected.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: We were waiting for the other shoe to drop.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: They did it right at the 30-day deadline, like I mentioned.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Some interesting stuff that was new about what their release this morning was talking about.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: And one of them, NAW is quoting the judge against himself.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: So let me get this right.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: The the Simon wrote that few material facts are truly disputed.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: The case is most that means the case is mostly a question of law.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that matters on the appeal because NAW is saying to the Ninth Circuit, essentially, the trial judge, Judge Simon, already told you there's nothing to defer here.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's no you're not deferring to a previous precedent that the first judge had had made.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you gotta get to start over.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: So basically clean slate.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: They've also repurposed one of their points that they lost there, saying that producers selling it in multiple multiple states, they could spread program costs across other states' customers.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that kind of softens the hit to specific Oregonians who are unduly burdened.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: So the NAW used it to prove like some sort of uh protectionist intent, like protecting the the Oregon populace.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: So Simon threw that out twice, and they say they're saying he mischaracterized that.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: One thing that they didn't touch, or at least they haven't in the press release on the appeal.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure this will come up, is what I thought was an escape hatch where Judge Simon said that you're not forced to join the CAA, you can create your own.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that felt tenuous to me from what I saw so far.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't look like they've hit at that point.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: I expect it to come up in the Ninth Circuit type of appeals that come up, but that that's gonna take a long time.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: The appeals tend to run about a year to 18 months, so maybe look for a decision in 2027, late 2027, maybe 2028.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: So as we know, these things take a long time.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll be just keeping an eye and listening for what's next.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_05: Do you have any background in all of this legalese, or is this all stuff you've just taught yourself?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Luckily, we have the benefit of having a uh a columnist by the name of Eric Greenberg.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh right, who helps me out with all this stuff and I filter a lot through him.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: He won't necessarily always be quoted or be on record or anything like that, but he has been he's been a big help in kind of jumpstarting a lot of this because we hadn't had to cover this before.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't a thing until five years ago, and and now that it is, it's something that's firmly impacting our readers, pro brands, and CPGs.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to cover it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: So luckily we have some in-house expertise.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, because I was feeling bad that it was one more thing that you had added that you knew a lot about all of a sudden that the rest of us feel stupid because we don't know as much as you.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm glad to hear that you have help.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: I know as much as Law and Order has taught me, and that's about it.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_05: And so you're equal to the rest of us.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: To that degree of accuracy and realism, too.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_05: Fantastic.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_05: I'm glad to hear that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_05: I'm glad to hear that there were appeals.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_05: We said that there would probably be appeals.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_05: Is NAW doing this?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_05: I meant to ask this before I asked made the jokes and stuff like that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_05: Are they doing this in other states that are doing EPR?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: California.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they're pressure testing because every state has a certain different different set of laws and a different and the EPR laws themselves are different in every state.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I see kind of coming at it in slightly different angles and just pressure testing.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: They're testing where there are weaknesses, where they sense there are weaknesses here.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, some of it is specific to their group, the the wholesalers, and some of it could apply more broadly to our readers, the brand owners.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it depends on the state.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: California is the next big domino to fall in terms of the NAW suits, at least.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's fair.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_05: Let's sidestep to Pro Food World, Derek.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_05: I I understand we're gonna talk lighting.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, not quite as enlightening as Max.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_04: We had to get the joke in somehow, right?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, the funny thing, I don't know if anybody has considered how lighting impacts or how light impacts food quality or food safety.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_04: And if you think about it, even on your settings on your TV, if you've been in a room where there's a warm light, which is like 2700 Kelvin, and then you go into a you switch it to the blue light, the blue setting that's 3,500 Kelvin, and it's a very red to blue difference.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_04: And if your facility has different types of lighting in there, like it really will impact the the a slab of beef is gonna look different under blue light than it will under red light.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's important to have your whole facility with at least on the plant floor, one color, regardless of whether or not it's the blue light or warm light, warm tones.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: And this is all from an interview I had on yesterday, in fact, talking about this.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_04: Because what we're doing is we're covering some stuff some things that might not necessarily think about, be thought about when it comes to food safety.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_04: And in this case, yeah, it was you want to be able to you want to look at something under the same conditions every time because if you don't, then yeah, you might have something, oh, it looks completely different over here from the eye test.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_04: Clearly, there are different systems in place, vision systems, whatnot, that are gonna take a look at that and help you determine whether or not that piece of that product is has any bacteria, what whatever have you on it be contaminated.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_04: There we go, that's the word.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: But you can have different forms of lighting within your break rooms and so forth.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_04: There, you might want to have a warmer tone, like a more relaxed tone, whereas on the plant floor, you're gonna be looking for bluer tones because that tends to be a little bit more wakes you up a little bit, which is why you're not supposed to be looking at your phone at night, or your phone has a setting where it turns down because it wakes you up.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's a minor effect in all things considered, but it's enough to keep you awake at night.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's not quite like having a cup of coffee right before bed, but it's it'll pep you up a little bit.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: More like mint toothpaste also wakes you up.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if people knew that that I did not.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, mint will perk you up a little bit, so that's why brushing your teeth can also have an effect where it wakes you up a little bit.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_04: So don't brush your teeth.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_04: Correct.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: That's what Derek said.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: Derek is saying, Don't brush your teeth.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: I said, and yeah, and my wife knows all about this philosophy and she hates it.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_04: No, I'm joking.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_04: I do brush my teeth.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: My oral hygiene is good, I swear.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: But one of the things that he said that might this is all gonna be coming out later.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_04: We have other topics we're gonna discuss, such as coatings.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: One of the other things that was interesting to me is he said that he has gone and he's never gone into a clean room and seen a screw out of place in the lighting.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas on a plant floor, you might walk in and somebody is putting up the cover to a light, and they might get a couple screws in and say, Okay, it's good to go.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_04: But there are a couple of problems, like A, where did that screw go?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: Was it over a machine?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: Was it a whole batch of product now being contaminated because of that?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: But there's also a little bit more of a concern, especially in environments where there's steam, and steam is going to find those little pinholes in in your lighting, and it's gonna collect and it's gonna create a uh coalescing blinking on the word, like a congregating point, I guess, is a uh congregation point.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, and then you're gonna start having bacteria, and so you could go through, start cleaning it even in washdowns, even in this place where there is no steam per se, but if you do a washdown and that water is gonna collect there, and so the point was that you could be doing everything right, you could be cleaning your facility properly, but if you have that what and then you say, Oh, you're getting these readings that there's contamination somewhere, and you can't find it, it's in this light, but you checked everywhere else.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_04: But because you've left that one little screw hole open, that it could impact your entire facility's quality, just that one little thing.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_04: And so I thought it was really interesting.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_04: And like I said, we're gonna be covering coverings, a little coatings in a little bit for another feature that we have coming out later.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, it was just interesting finding these just these things that you wouldn't normally consider regarding food safety and how much how big of an impact something small like lighting can have or lighting fixtures can have on the entire process in your facility.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know just last week, Derek, we don't talk about it frequently, but uh related subject was were dairy products that are currently come out, like Fair Life and Chibani dairy products that come out in HGPE opaque.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Brand owners are switching to clear PET for those dairy products, are now having to use shrink sleeves to cover the whole thing because of how light impacts the product itself.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, light, yeah, we're definitely there's light is coming up more frequently in our chats these days.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it's obviously been something that's been known for a while, which is why most beer bottles come in amber bottles, coated bottles.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_04: So colored bottles.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: Man, I can speak well today, always.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, don't listen to me anymore.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: Deolio, actually, the big oil brand Deolio just released some of their top end, and they're continuing with their the green bottle bottles for their olive oil, but the really high-end stuff that is maybe even more light sensitive or more prone to off flavors, they've switched to a blue glass bottle, which is unique, but it they've determined it's optimal for protecting the contents, the olive oil, especially the really high-end ones.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: The problem is that consumers don't recognize it as olive oil because they see a blue bottle.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: So they have a superior product with greater shelf life that now avoids going bad for much longer, but now they have to teach consumers to find it on the shelf because you're not used to looking for a blue glass bottle for olive oil.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna ask just about that, but I'm wondering if it's blue because it filters out like an ultraviolet or something like that, might impact the I'll have to look it up.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, why don't you read the next issue of Packaging World magazine and you'll find a full explanation in there by the talented Anne Marie Mohan that should be online soon.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_04: Awesome, shameless plug, love it.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and no shame detected.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_05: No, none at all.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_05: Moving over to healthcare packaging, I don't think we have lighting or legalese to talk about, but we have some inhalants, maybe.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: We do have inhalants, but I wanted to throw out a funny little anecdote about color because we went into a color tangent.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_05: We did.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I did an interview with Genexa over the counter medicines and such.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: They just did a reboot earlier this year, and they really used color to signal like pain relievers red, like maybe it's a more emergency kind of red.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Blue is like daytime information or medicine, yellow is more supplemental or like a vitamin.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: But she has she in the interview, the woman said color is a very hotly contested topic, and people have very strong opinions about yellow.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yellow is surprisingly polarizing.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I had that quote in our spunny.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Going to like people, we really do look at color more, probably more than we think we do.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that blue olive oil bottle, right?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't signal olive oil.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: We might pass over it.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so yellow is one of those colors that you like it or you don't.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So no, no, no.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: Are you not allowed to put any wall in my house yellow?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, gosh.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Not allowed.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: I love yellow, but not allowed.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yellow's a tough, yeah, which my walls look yellow, but they're not, they're beige.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it is a cheery color when used correctly.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I don't know.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: What do you guys think about yellow?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pro-yellow.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Pro yellow.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up in the big bird generation.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: We gotta be pro-yellow.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, also I just think of like when I'm buying light bulbs, it's like I gravitate to the natural yellow shades as opposed to those real crisp white kind of newer shades.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: I like a room with lower lighting and yellow light as opposed to the bright overhead stuff.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a little softer.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: A little softer on the face as we age, we need a little softer lighting.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_05: For yourself.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I will.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I will speak for myself.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, to all the inhalers.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: We've been covering a little bit more on healthcare packaging, which is interesting to see.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: We have a new case study digging into inbriha, which is a medicine to treat a Parkinson's sort of attack or a bad moment kind of medicine, and it's inhaler.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they changed up some like how they're manufacturing the drug.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So pretty interesting for us.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's really to do with how they're processing the powder.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: What caught my attention is that the aerosol performance is built into the particle itself.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's taking on how it functions with the packaging.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: The shape and density of the particle are really part of the drug delivery system, which is pretty cool.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: So traditional dry powder inhalers use the fine drug particles with the coarse lactose that helps with filling and dispersion.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And Briha is using hollow, low density particles designed to disperse on inhalation.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it really does increase how much of that dose reached the patient's lungs.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: So pretty interesting, but they had to change some stuff, including the spray pattern to dry the particles on site.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: So pretty interesting article to read about what that looks like.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But also, we just talked about and we covered a smart inhaler.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: The global smart inhaler market is growing pretty astronomically as well.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And they have a stat in here.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is from, gosh, where is this from SNS Insider.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And according to them, and according to their information, 50% of asthma patients are using inhalers incorrectly, which I find very crazy as an asthma patient and inhaler user.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty interesting stuff.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: So they're coming out with some more AI Bluetooth cloud technology to help with remote monitoring, automatic usage tracking, patient reminders.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: So just trying to really get ahead of that, improve medication adherence.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, all about patient safety and making sure that the dose is taken correctly.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So interesting to see that kind of technology in such a specific product.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: If you put a dumb one in front of me, a dumb inhaler, I wouldn't know what to do with it.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I've never had that inhaler experience.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: So if I ever needed one, I would need the smarter variety.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think it's key.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the only thing I can think of that they've always done since I was little, I've always had asthma, is they really they give you a little number of how many doses are left.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's our 60 clocks down from there, right?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: But so I guess if you do it incorrectly and that number doesn't go down, you can get a feel of whether or not you actually got the medicine.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's interesting.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's a large number that are using it incorrectly, right?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's what I was thinking, especially with something to do with asthma.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_05: You would think that you'd have to do it correctly or you'd have a hard time.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_05: So I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around is how are they smartly figuring out if you're doing it correctly?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_05: Is it like you said, just the dosing, probably?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's so there's you can use AI and Bluetooth to track usage and provide data to patients.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm guessing you'd have to have an app that's moved going alongside meter dose inhalers is the largest market share.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what we're talking about with the meters showing, clocking down as you use it.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to look through the article real fast, but it doesn't say a ton of direct information on what they're doing, but I think it's emerging as like, how do we use this new technology to help patients properly use the device and get that proper dose?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, interesting to see what that might look like in the future, especially as AI becomes more prevalent.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I wouldn't have thought of it would be something that could make it into inhalers and stuff like that.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_05: So it's fascinating that it has.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we got a couple of pictures on the art on our website.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'll throw in here for those watching, can take a look at it's it's a countdown meter dose and days that you might follow.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a little bit more to it, to the packaging itself.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sean, I've got one more little interesting nugget that came came across I completely forgot about until now.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I think in today's environment where we see gas prices are high, there's a lot of pressure on most consumers' wallets.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: I listened in on Proctor and Gamble CFO Andrew Shulton, Andre Shulton, he did an investor fireside chat just this week or la early last week.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a lot of it's supply chain, but there was an interesting packaging factoid in there.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: He noticed that some of Proctor and Gamble's family care products were are being priced out or were priced out of range in the club channel, and that's because of the pack size.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it even though the value per item per sheet in this case, I think it was whether it was toilet paper or or paper towels or whatever it might be, the the the club sizes had gotten so large that they have to have some minimum price.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: And even though the value per sheet was probably as low as you could go, the amount of money that a consumer had in their bank account or wallet was not sufficient to purchase these things.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they actually had to modify some of their pack size.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: And actually the value or the value per sheet probably went down a little bit.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: But it's interesting to see how packaging is being impacted or even reflecting the wider economic milieu.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a reminder that a package architecture, it's really a pricing tool.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: How much is in there?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: We've heard about stagflation or what was it?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Stringflation.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_05: But as soon as you said that, I was thinking that would people, a cynic might see that as shrinkflation.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's just making sure that they've got a product that can be sold in a even if the per unit value is extremely good, if there's too many of them stacked on top of each other, then that can break the bank for a certain budget-minded uh consumer.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not really they did actually go back, and just the economics had to actually add some fraction of a cent per sheet because the more you have of something, the more you sell of something, the lower you can go per per unit.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: So this wasn't really uh a shrinkflation.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: This was more right-sizing packaging for the amount of money consumers have disposable right now.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_05: No, absolutely.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_05: No, I agree.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_05: I understood the point of view and where it was coming from for the reason for doing it.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just saying that without that background, you go into that on a shelf, and someone might immediately think, oh, this used to be such and such price, and I got more sheets.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Or more fluid ounces or whatever that number is, because I I guess I've started to look at that more frequently in in grocery aisles is the per unit price, that little uh five cents or three cents or whatever, and keeping an eye on that.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: So interesting to watch as brands react and adjust to a consumer who's really pinched right now.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_04: I saw today that Tesla actually has said that they're gonna really for real roll out their semis, roll out with some semis.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_04: I know Pepsi, yeah, about nine years in the making, so to speak.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think I know Pepsi received one in 2022, but that were received a few in 2022, but on a mass scale, they have not been produced.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_04: And so we they still haven't been.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_04: They just announced that they're going to be doing that, but we'll see you believe it when I see it.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is is this a response to uh oil prices and gas prices?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: Or I think it may have been, but it's the problem I have with a lot of things that Tesla announces is that it is very much PR marketing, something that will never really come to fruition, or at least it won't for dozens of years or a long time, you know.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: And so I take it with a grain of salt with that, but because it might be just what you said, uh a proclamation in response to current environmental conditions with regard to gas prices.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_04: So it might be all it is to goose their stock, but they did make that announcement and just wanted to say that just because hey, we're talking about supply chain a little bit.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_05: Love it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_05: I think we've covered all the bases, we've gone and hit everything that we possibly could.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you, everybody, for tuning in.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you to all of my colleagues for giving us everything that they've seen and heard this week.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_05: I thought this was a great discussion.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_05: So thanks again, and tune in next week for another episode of End of the Line.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Through the Line Packaging and Processing.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can listen to more episodes on all streaming platforms.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to visit us at packworld.com, profoodworld.com, and healthcarepackaging.com for more packaging and processing news.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast was edited by Brady Guns.