Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.304: Debunking Skin Care Myths W/ Jan Marini (3/5 in Masterclass Series)

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E.304: Debunking Skin Care Myths W/ Jan Marini (3/5 in Masterclass Series) · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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  SPEAKER_03: All right, guys, thank you so much.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm super excited because this one is going to be focused on skincare myths.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: So welcome back to the show, Jan.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so excited.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: We're doing another episode for this class.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: This is a fun subject.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, no, I'm so excited.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: I want to learn about all the myths out there.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: I know there are a lot of them and we hear about them all the time, especially from TikTok and all the influencers.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: So um, let's dive in and um, you know, I can just, I guess, start with the first one.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I know that in summertime everyone is really, really cautious about their skin, right?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: And they don't want to be using products like actives and stuff, but I want to ask you, what about retinol?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Can we use retinol in the summertime?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is one of the biggest misconceptions out there.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: You absolutely can.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, so many times people want to stop their retinoids in the summertime.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I always, I always say, I always answer a question with a question.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I usually say to people, so why do you think you can't wear your retinoid in the summertime?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer I get 90% of the time is, well, it's going to make me sun sensitive.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And sun sensitivity is a whole different issue.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Retinoids do not make you sun sensitive.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sun sensitivity is where there's a chemical reaction with UV light.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, you know, when you when you prescribe tetracycline, doesn't it say on there, you have to be careful about sunlight or doxycycline or any of those, you know, a lot of those antibiotics?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've had this happen to me many years ago.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: You can be wearing the best sunscreen and you go outside in the sun when you're taking an anti one of those antibiotics and you can burn to a crisp.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: I ended up in the emergency room.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be a severe burn.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: But that is not what happens with the retinoid.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: There was actually a study done where they highly retinized skin and then they put it outside.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you use a retinoid in the beginning before you acclimate, you can kind of your skin can sometimes get red or it can get peely, depending on the retinoid.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I put this person out in the sun and let them burn to a crisp.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the skin that is retinoid, retinized actually heals faster and has less damage, less damage to the DNA than skin that burns without a retinoid.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to wear your retinoid, you want to wear it.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, wow, that's crazy.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't, I had no idea that and that makes sense, right?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: With the salt turnover.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's that's really, really interesting.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so retinols are okay, good to go for the summer.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's really good to know.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you don't want to get all that damage in your skin.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Then you're kind of behind the eight ball, then in September you start using it again, and now you're you have you've got a lot to make up for.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So just keep using it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's yeah, that's definitely something I didn't know.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm glad that we clarified that.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so what about acne now?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: How is sun involved with acne?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know a lot of people who have acne are very, you know, they're very cautious, they don't want to do anything to like, you know, just I guess exacerbate it.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: And also it's very painful, I think, too, sometimes.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: So what about sun?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Does sun help acne?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: It actually makes it worse.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it's understandable how people could think that it's going to make your acne better because here's what happens.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: So acne starts in the follicle.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're in the sun, what it does is it sort of hardens the outside of the skin, the stratum corneum, and it starts, you know, you start to get a tan.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's the response to the sun.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's in a in a way, it's kind of it's a type of damage.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So when that stratum corneum is a little harder, what it does is suppresses the processes that are going on in the follicle.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got all these dead cells and the oil and the C acne bacteria, etc.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's suppressing it.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when when you get out of the sun, so you think your skin is better, then September comes along and you get out of the sun, and teenagers go back to school, and all of a sudden they have this terrible breakout.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you assume I must be breaking out because I'm not in the sun.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: What it is is once the stratum corneum actually softens, then you have this sort of giant eruption, and it was brewing down there all the time.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're actually making it worse.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And not only that, um, you know, you you this this includes tanning beds.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And tanning beds emit 12 times more light than natural sunlight.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: So both of them are are really, really bad for your skin and horribly damaging, and it actually makes acne worse.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's I I had no idea.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's honestly like I know tanning beds, like, you know, being a millennial myself, it was like everyone was going to the tanning bed.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember thinking, like, you know, a lot of the girls that had like the really dark tans, I was like, you know, they never had acne, but it was like, I just I just wondered, like, what is going on with your skin underneath the surface, you know, because you're this, you know, you're the color of darker me in the dark in the summertime.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that's that's really interesting.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, now speaking of acne, I know there's a lot of home remedies, which I'm sure you know and you've seen them, you know, people making these mistakes all the time.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, one of the biggest ones I've seen is toothpaste.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so what about that?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: Can you put toothpaste on a zit?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: And will that help?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: That is like an urban legend that just persists and persists no matter what.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's like a cockroach, it just won't die.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: So so first of all, acne starts in the follicle.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: So once you have an acne lesion, that's the end of the process.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you can, you know, you could put a little ice on it to make it less red, you could put some cortisone on it, maybe you could um put some benzoprox on it.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: It might make the inflammation go away a little faster, but that's the end of the process.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're pretty much stuck with it.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there's absolutely nothing in toothpaste that is going to help an acne lesion.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: As a matter of fact, the majority of toothpaste have fluoride, and fluoride actually can be an exacerbating or a causative factor for acne.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes when people have acne that's kind of perioral, it's sort of in the corners of their mouth or down in the area that's going down toward the chin.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that can be one of the causative factors, can be fluoride.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, for example, if I go to the dentist after I get my teeth cleaned, they always want me to do a fluoride rinse.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I have on my chart, do not give me a fluoride rinse, because even though I never ever break up, I will get a big old zip with the fluoride rinse.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's really interesting.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: When you stick toothpaste on a zit, you know, probably what happens is it dries and it may absorb some of the fluid, making you think that somehow it's gonna dry that lesion out faster, but it's actually just gonna make it worse.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's that's so interesting.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that, but Florida, and that makes me actually think of like, you know, it's kind of off topic.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: It makes me think of like hard water and soft water.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: If you if you know what I mean, like just how that, if that you know, uh plays into it at all, because I know fluoride in some countries is used in the water.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: So that's interesting.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very interesting it is, and I don't know if there's a study that's been done on that, but it possibly could uh play into it if there's fluoride in the water, if it's fluorinated.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: Now, what about okay?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: So the next one, so you know, we understand toothpaste.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: Now, what about chocolate?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know I mean I love chocolate, so should I I mean what about chocolate and acne?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, is it gonna be causing me to break out or is it okay?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, chocolate itself, this is the good news, does not exacerbate acne.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is that actually a really great antioxidant?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, flavonoid, it's dark, it probably has a lot of anti-inflammatory characteristics.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's the sugar, okay?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so they've done lots and lots of studies um in terms of trying to determine if if chocolate plays a role, but it's it's really sugar, and um it sugar is inflammatory, acne is an inflammatory disorder, and so we know that when you have a diet that is high, and by the way, it's also one other thing if you're if you're eating milk chocolate, um, it can be the milk.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a couple of things that about diet that exacerbate acne.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: So one is milk.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: We know that milk actually causes acne.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is not my speculation.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is an actual study that was done on 47,000 nurses, repeated on their sons and daughters, and done on 3,000 teenage boys and 3,000 teenage girls.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because we actually milk cows when they're pregnant.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's how you you get milk.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if a cow is in the wild and it gets pregnant, it pushes the calf away.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So when it's pregnant, it's producing steroidal hormones.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't really matter where you buy your milk, whether it's at you know, Safeway or whether it's at Whole Foods and it's organic, it's the fact that the cow is pregnant when we milk it.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: So this plays a major role.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing that plays a role, which has to do with sort of the sugar issue, and that is the glycemic load.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we know what the glycemic index is, right?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you look at a candy bar and you say that's got sugar in it.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: High glycemic index.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Glycemic load is how your liver processes the food and how much glucose is going in every cell in your body.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So glucose is very, very inflammatory.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're eating a high carb diet that's total carbs, let's say, you know, let's say you have a great pasta dinner and garlic bread, and maybe you have some dessert.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Over time, as your insulin levels kind of spike, what happens in many individuals is that we actually produce more testosterone to take those levels down.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens is that it's kind of it it can translate into um, particularly for female adult females in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and beyond, acne is an epidemic.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so it translates into that acne that you see perioral jawline that's really stubborn, and you see it on so many females that it's so difficult to address.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's so interesting.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Not chocolate itself, but you know, in a lot of countries, you know, chocolate is used in cooking, right?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not as a sweet.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't even, it probably doesn't even taste like chocolate.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: You literally read my mind, Jan.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: I was thinking about like the cocoa aspect of it.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, well, what you know, because yeah, because like a lot of people use like dark chocolate, and dark chocolate isn't, you know, if you or if you get cocoa, just cocoa powder, like that's chocolate, you know, it's not it's just not sugar, like you said.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's cocaine.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you know, I've tried this.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like you, I I love chocolate, and I've tried eating the you know, 87%, 90% chocolate.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Just doesn't do it for me.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I wish it did because it's actually, you know, it's actually probably good for you.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: No, I've it's it's actually a lot of studies have been done on the on the antioxidant properties.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure you know all about those, but yeah, I'm with you 100%.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: I can't, you know, if I'm on I'm trying to eat some chocolate, I'm gonna go eat some chocolate.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of I mean, it's like it it's more like if if it's like 95, 90 or whatever, even 72% is really hard.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like it's medicine.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, exactly.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: No, you know, I I actually want to ask you, I want to shift focus a little bit because um I know last time we spoke um about rosacea, and that was such an amazing, amazing episode.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: And to learn from you, I actually recently published a paper.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: It just came out on rosacea and eczema, and and I'm really curious to learn more about it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what about I, you know, and a lot of people have actually reached out since that episode, by the way.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: I was meaning to tell you and asked about um, you know, just their own story, but I'm curious about glycolic acids and retinoids when it comes to rosacea.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: Can we use them?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: Can we not use them?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what is you know, what's the answer to that?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: In general, you absolutely can use them.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And now this is a really complex issue because if you did a paper in rosacea, you know that rosacea is such a complex, multifaceted disease, and we still, there's a lot of mystery surrounding rosacea.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: We still don't fully understand it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And also we don't even, you know, sometimes it's speculated could possibly could it be autoimmune?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Does it have other, you know, um aspects of it that we don't fully understand?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: But in general, rosacea is not a disease of sensitivity, it's a disease of reactivity.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you can have really sensitive skin and not have rosacea.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can have rosacea, but not be particularly sensitive.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's reactivity towards certain triggers, and those triggers are different for different people.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: But in general, it could be alcohol, it could be spicy food, it could be caffeine, it could be chocolate, it could be some people, it's weird, it's berries, avocados, it's sitting in a stuffy room, not getting enough rest.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: All those kinds of things can kind of be a trigger for rosace.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's also a disease of basomotor instability.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the blood vessels, there's instability there, they're supposed to expand and contract, expand and contract, they're compromised.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So what we believe is kind of the under one of the underpinnings or underlying factors of rosacea, primary factor, is something called the chissolicin protein.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is an inflammatory protein, but it's actually a good protein because it's used in we use it to heal our wounds and things like that.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's somehow being triggered for no apparent reason, this is where you get the flushing and blushing and some of the characteristics associated with rosacea.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So what I'm getting to, bottom line, is is that you want to use things that downregulate those inflammatory pathways.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: You want to use a lot of anti um or uh anti-inflammatories.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Glycolic is a major anti-inflammatory.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And not only that, but a study that was done by two female derms who each head of the Department of Dermatology at two different universities determined what they did is they took two groups of patients, started them off on 20% glycolic acid home care, which is pretty aggressive, started doing pills on them two weeks later in every single case.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: They were able to halt the progression of the disease, they were able to gain control and to um eliminate the secondary lesions that associated with that can look like acne.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they also were able to decrease the appearance of the talingictasia.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's speculated that if the demodexamite is involved in rosacea, and that's never been proven completely, um, that it can keep it from colonizing in the follicle or attaching itself to the follicle.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and retinoids are another gold standard for rosacea.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we're not quite sure how they affect rosacea, but we know I like to add rose kind of retinoids in once the rosacea kind of gets more consistent or stabilized.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, um, and we do that with a product called BioClear, which is glycolic, salicylic, and azlaic acid.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And aslayac acid is sold by prescription for rosacea.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um but once we kind of get it so that it's a little bit more stable, then adding a retinoid in can really help to decrease a lot of the characteristics associated with rosacea, including the people as they progress down the rosacea road, they get sort of an orange peel-like skin, sebaceous glands enlarge.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so it can make a huge difference on the skin texture and just the overall um keeping the skin kind of uh stable and and looking more like you don't have rosacea.
• 21:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot younger looking too.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean, that's something that's very important for us to.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, for anyone listening that has rosacea, I mean, this is really important because I know that a lot of people, when they have something like rosacea, they're like, absolutely stop everything.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: I can't use any skincare, I can't put anything on my skin that's going to irritate it.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: But that's a very interesting um, you know, amount of information because that's, you know, for me, that's what I see the most consumers doing.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: They're either going to use too much of our product or too much of skincare in general, or or they'll use nothing, you know?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so finding that balance, um, I think that's really, really important, especially when you have something like rosacea or or eczema.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, exactly.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also There's a tendency because people want to categorize it as sensitive skin to use things that you know we associated, we associate with using unsensitive skin, like somehow botanicals or these so-called very gentle ingredients.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't have receptor sites in our skin for botanicals.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Botanicals sometimes can be very irritating or very uh they can trigger inflammatory responses.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And there are a lot of other ingredients that you might think would be a more gentle, so-called gentle ingredient for somebody that has rosacea, but it's not going to actually assist in being able to address these causative factors.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: Those, yeah, that makes sense.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, um, that actually leads me to uh the next question because um, you know, you speak about botanicals, and I think, you know, people have a lot of, I guess, especially with the way the industry is now, they have a lot of, I guess, ideas that we can't put certain things in certain amounts on our skin.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think oil is one of the things that is now emerging.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of companies are talking about oil-based products.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I've interviewed a lot of brands that are, you know, talking about oils as like the holy grail.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, now I really want to know from you in terms of just using oil or the natural oil our skin is producing, does that help with anti-aging or keeping us young?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: How does the oil really play a part with skin health?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say in general, no.
• 23:32
  unknown: Okay.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: I know everybody, you know, and there's a lot of things about essential oils.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start with essential oils because that's sort of a big category.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, for example, let's take someplace like India, where essential oils are huge.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Essential oils are actually looked at as being medicinal, and people sometimes go to school for years and years and years to really work with essential oils.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's something that we just look at here as a kind of a fluffy cosmetic ingredient.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And for one thing, it gets it can get very complex.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: If essential oils are extracted through a cold pressed method, it's different than extracting them with a solvent.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes when you use solvents, it can actually cause that essential oil to be very acneogenic.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people don't know that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of things about essential oils that you may not know in using a product.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, um keep in mind that there are some essential oils that can actually be cometogenic, they can actually be achaeogenic.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: But finally, when it comes to skin aging, when we talk about the skin being really just plump and soft and radiant and having lots of moisture and looking just really refined and glowing, um, that has a lot to do with two things.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: One, the outside of your skin, the stratum corneum, is a dead layer, and those cells should be in a very organized fashion.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: They should lay like shingles on a roof or fish scales.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And in between those cells, you have a lot of hygroscopic substances, mucopolysaccharides, ceramides, phospholipids, hyaluronic acid.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And those substances are what gives the skin, helps to hold in water, gives the skin barrier function, allowing us to respond appropriately under different weather conditions.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: So whether it's you know humid or whether it's dry or cold, that our skin responds appropriately instead of being red and inflamed.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it just gives the skin volume so that it's again nice and plump.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what happens is you get to your, you know, you're you get into your more catabolic state, you reach the age of 20 and you're kind of fully cooked, and all that sun damage that you've had growing up over the years starts to show up.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that can happen is that stratum corneum starts to get very disorganized.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And there's an actual, there's a medical term for it called increased corneocyte cohesion.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Those cells can kind of harden and cornify, and your skin can actually feel dry, and it's not really dry, and can actually look coarser and it can pile up around your follicle openings, and then also you're not producing as much of these glycos aminoglycans.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't have the same barrier function.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's really interesting.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so it what you want to do is you want to increase those substances, and you know, sometimes people that have really oily skin they actually have more inflammation and more trancepidermal moisture loss.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So oil is not what is going to keep you young.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's going to be having a nice thin pack, compact stratum corneum, very organized, and having lots of those hygroscopic substances that hold water in the skin.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And finally, there is another aspect of that, and it's the dermis, which is 80% collagen, is having a really thick, robust dermis.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you can have put all the essential oil on your skin that you want and all the various oils, and you're gonna start losing at the age of 20 about one to two percent or so collagen per year, more with sun exposure and the sun exposure you've had in your past and your diet and your lifestyle.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you get into your 50s, 60s, 70s, and we are you could lose, lose as much as 50, 60, 70 percent of your dermis.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oil isn't gonna help you with that.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really things like retinoids and actually things like glycolic acid stimulates that.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Glycolic acid is actually categorized technically as a moisturizer because what it does is it creates more of these glycosiminoglycans in the skin.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there's various substances that we can put on their skin that actually can truly make this huge difference in those areas.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it's and that's not to say that there aren't some essential oils out there that might not be helpful, but that's not the panacea.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, wow, that's so interesting.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I love what you said about the glycolic and and helping it or using it, and then eventually your skin allows for this increase in hydration ability.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I've been thinking about that a lot, especially with signaling.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this is where consumers, I wish they would catch up to this idea of molecular signaling in our skin and what that really does at the end of the day compared to just put everything on top of it, you know, and you're gonna wake up tomorrow with perfect skin.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like I just I never understand that concept, but what you're saying makes so much sense because there are so many pathways, right, in the skin, and we we really have been overlooking that, I feel like, as an industry.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, there's so much um debate and controversy and talk about that products have to absorb, and you hear this in all the ads that they absorb, they absorb.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: The fact is that you have receptor sites on every single cell.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's about connecting with those receptor sites because I can actually, um, for example, with transferring growth factor beta one, which Dr.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Weido of Jefferson University determined, um, simulates a type of collagen that you don't produce after the age of 30.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: And he was quoted as saying this is just a thing to keep the skin young indefinitely.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't have to get that into your bloodstream or into your dermis, I just have to connect with receptor sites.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's it's really an area that's misunderstood.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, consumers are being constantly being fed information that sounds like it's so technical and so scientific.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's it's it's pseudoscience.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I call it, pseudoscience, because honestly, you know, what you just said about the the receptors, it's like this lock-in-key mechanism.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the human body is just so complex, and you have to have the right key to unlock the right thing, which is going to lead to a whole cascade of events that your body has to undergo to create things like collagen and normal proteins that we use.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: So, this is a concept that I feel like consumers, yeah, they're definitely being manipulated by some companies because they, you know, they don't explain the whole story.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it's exactly.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and peptides are another area that are really an interesting, fascinating area.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: We barely scratch the surface.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I look at skin aging as like a 25,000-piece puzzle, and maybe we've been able to address one corner of it.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And peptides are emerging because we're we we haven't even begun to uncover the vast um ability of what peptides eventually will be able to do.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: But at the simplest level, a lot of peptides that we see in skincare actually fool your skin into thinking it's wounded.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what do you do when your skin is wounded?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: You produce a lot more collagen.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, but you also uh make a lot more cytokines and inflammatory molecules, right?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's it's like a double-edged sword, I feel like it is, but you can actually, and this is where peptides are now starting to get refined because we have peptides, for example, in Rosalie that downregulate that pathway for chicillicidin for uh rosacea.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: We have a peptide that actually, um, for the first time that we use in our luminate, which actually downregulates the melanocyte stimulating hormone, which plays a role genetically into how you're going to personally react in the sun.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you go outside, you know, somebody goes outside for five minutes and or sits in a hot car and they start pigmenting and other people don't?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: So again, that's why it's just it's so amazing what we're going to be able to do and how we're able to manipulate some of these um these processes.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: No, absolutely.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's a very fascinating topic.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I, you know, I completely agree with you that, you know, the dermatology and I think skin as an organ.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, no kidding, you know, Jan, when I look at it, I I always look at skin as the equivalent to kind of how much we know about the brain.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know how they say we don't even know like 10% about what our brain is doing and how it's doing it.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I feel like the same thing with the skin.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's one of the most complex organs that we are dealing with in the community.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I always say when you talk about penetration, if you could really get everything to penetrate through the skin, you'd drown in the bathtub.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: People don't understand.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want, you don't want everything to penetrate through the skin, but you can affect it.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of one of the areas that I am constantly researching is how can we affect the skin topically and um and do it in a way in which we're sort of signaling how it should how it should perform like it did when it was much younger.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: I completely uh and I love that you're doing that.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: Keep please keep doing it so we can get real answers instead of all the all the garbage out there.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah, we were we definitely need more research in that area.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I want to I want to move on.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: I want to actually ask you because the peptide conversation really brings up this idea of um, you know, people really are buzzing about the pH levels of our skin.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I know I'm sure you know, you know, with peptides, we're talking about, you know, just smaller versions of amino acids and whatnot, and just, you know, proteins and all that.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: And there are acidic and basic components there, right?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to know, um, should you always use something like a toner, you know, um, for pH balance of your skin?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because this pH balance idea, uh, you know, it's I'm not gonna lie to you, it doesn't, it doesn't sit like that well with me, you know.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't I don't feel like I understand it at all, to be honest.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for you to people are really kind of obsessed with this.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's all about somehow you have to use a toner or something.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of this is a marketing ploy.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna come at this from a couple of different angles.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, number one, even if you wash your face with, by the way, pH varies.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you a baby might have a different pH than an adult, and some adults have different pH, it just depends on all kinds of things.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody is obsessed with, you know, you want to get your skin to 4.5 to 5.5, acid balanced.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you used something to clean your skin that left it maybe more acidic or more alkaline or whatever, in about 20 minutes it goes back to its natural pH, one way or the other.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's just the way it is.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't need a toner to do that.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the reason that toners got to be popular, this is a marketing ploy.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: At one time, there probably was a decent use for a toner because let's go back to the days where people have access to things like ly soap.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe if you were, you know, had a lot of money, you could buy castile soap.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I even remember when my mother was a little girl, back she was born in 1910, and she said that my grandmother used to send her to the store with like a dime, and she'd come home with a bag of ly soap.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you wash your skin with that, and it leaves this scummy feel on it.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: So people would take rose water or vinegar or witch hazel, and they'd go over their skin to get rid of that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you're removing that leftover scummy feel.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Secondly, when you get in, when we got into like the 1920s and we got the cosmetic product, this was like a real breakthrough, but you still have it around today.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, something like Pons cold cream.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: So what women would do is they'd put Pons cold cream on their face, they tissue it off, left a greasy film, and they'd powder over it.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it would hold the powder on, and then they'd put red lipstick on.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: That was the flapper look.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you came home at night, you would put more cold cream on to take it off, you tissue it off, but of course you're gonna have a greasy afterfill.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, what did you do?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: You had to take something like witch hazel or vinegar or rose water to get rid of that, and and that was considered though to be better than soap because it didn't dry the skin out as much.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, when you got into sort of the SD Lauder era, because remember, before Estee Lauder, products were in department stores, she put the first products in department stores, and there was this movement toward cleanse, tone, moisturize.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even today, think about that really popular product clinique, the three-step.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, you you cleanse with the with the little soap bar, you use the toner afterwards, and then you put on the dramatically different moisturizing, the yellow lotion.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um now, so there's really not a reason to use a toner because today, unless you're using some type of cleanser that doesn't really clean your skin and leaves behind a lot of residue, there's no reason to do that.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that makes sense.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you're it's just it's it's not now.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you're using something, a toner that you're going to leave on the skin that maybe is for the purpose like it has glycolic in it, it has a more of a medicinal purpose.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that that's that's a possibility, but there is no reason to actually use a toner if your skin is getting, you know, is is being cleansed properly.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's so interesting.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that you really took it back to the history of it because that makes a lot of sense.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, toners, you know, for me, you're right.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: When I had acne, I remember the clinique three-step thing, and uh it was actually helpful for me because I always had residue on my face from sports or something like that.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Salicylic, it had salicylic in it, which was helpful for acne.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that was it.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that makes sense.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: That makes sense.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, okay.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: So toners not really needed.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Not really needed.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, yeah.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, okay, so now let's you know keep it on acne and let's talk about spot treatment.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, what about spot treating acne?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: Do we need to do that?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: So once you have an acne lesion, it's the end of the process.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: What you want to do is you want to prevent those, those, that, those processes that go into the acne.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so again, you you know, you could maybe get rid of it, maybe make it a little less red or dry it up a little faster or something like that.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: But the bottom line is you don't want to break out.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: You don't ever want to break out.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: You want to prevent it.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: You there's no cure for acne, but you can get complete total clearing.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can manage it and not break out.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, once you have an acne lesion, it's the end of the process.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's already the follicle, there's a leak in the follicle, more inflammation the material has gone to the outside, the dead cells and the bacteria and the inflammatory byproduct, it's creating an inflammatory process, and you end up with some type of a lesion.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's the end of the process.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: You want to keep it from happening.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, spot treatment doesn't work.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: And to prevent acne, you have to do something every single day.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Every single day.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a two-time Accutane failure.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have skin that's I never break out, my skin is always flawless.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: But if I didn't do what I do every single day, then I would break out.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: It might take a few days, but I would start breaking out.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to prevent that process.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I do that with a skincare management system, and I do that with with duality.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that makes sense because you know, uh, when I when I think about spa treatments, I'm always thinking about, you know, people are like, Well, I have a white head and I have to do my makeup and it's looking terrible.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: Let me just pop a little sticker things on that they make now.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: You yeah, and it's just like, well, I don't think those things work, the colloid patches.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, you know, they can kind of maybe help with the redness a little bit or the inflammation just a little bit, but you just if you're gonna, if you're not going to prevent it, then you better be a really good makeup artist to cover it up.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's the truth.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I think this actually really is such an interesting topic that, you know, we're doing and the fact that we're doing this because this idea of inflammation and really, really looking at the inflammosome when it comes to acne and other skin pathologies is something that the consumer, you know, the population of consumers for this industry really need to catch up on.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you hear words like anti-inflammatory and those kind of words now, but it's like, do you still understand what that means?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because acne, like you said, is an inflammatory process.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so what do we do, right?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: How do we stop the inflammation?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: Those are all things that I wish consumers would really, really start wondering about because that would really eliminate these kind of things like spot treatment, and you know, after it's already formed, you it doesn't make any sense.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, you know, aging is an inflammatory process.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, acne is an inflammatory process, rosaceous inflammatory process.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Aging is is considered today by the individuals who are just really in the forefront of all of the research on aging to be actually a disease.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: But we we don't think of it as a disease because, well, everybody gets it, you know, you can't prevent it.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so how can it be a disease?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the the prevailing theory is that we don't really have to age, we're gonna die, but we don't have to age in the way that we think of aging in terms of a um becoming, you know, having an average of maybe eight years or more in the elder years where you're bedridden or you're incapacitated.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to age that way.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: But and these are it's all inflammatory based.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: So um a lot of really interesting research going on in that area.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean I can I can imagine, I think aging is definitely across the board in medicine a very, very interesting um thing because I I you know, for me as a physician, I think about aging um in any way for any organ, I think of it as a gradual depletion of your normal physiological uh molecules.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: Because when you really look at any kind of um pathology related to aging, that's really what's going on.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: You either lose you're losing collagen or you're losing a last and you're decreasing production of certain proteins.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: This is a whole process, you know.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that's serotonins are anti-aging genes, all of that.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: That I I love this topic.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think that we should do like a whole different, like a whole series of this.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: I yes, I actually get interviewed quite a bit on uh aging and nutrition, and it's it's really it's so fascinating.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it really is.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so now okay, acne.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: I I feel like that was, you know, those were my really big questions for acne.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um my last one though, really is about curing acne.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: Can you really actually cure acne?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, is it is there like a final, you know, I guess a finish line.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: I wish there, I wish there was a cure for acne.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Accutane is not a cure.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to sort of position Accutane is that it puts people in remission.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: And meaning in remission could be that could.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Be months, it could be could be years for some people, but there are how many people do we know that have been on Accutane a number of times?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, statistics for Accutane is that it really has most people, only about 50% of individuals that go on Accutane really get what you would consider to be substantial clearing.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, when you go off of it, you might be really clear, but how much of it comes back?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: And even in the individuals that have gone on Accutane and feel that their skin is much, much better, in many cases, they still have breakouts or they still have closed comidal acne.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: It just is their acne is not as severe, it's not as aggressive as it once was.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, but the good news is you can manage it and you can get complete total clearing.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's that's really important to understand, I think, because um, you know, acne is such a hot topic, and and people are always, always so I feel like so traumatized by it.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like once they once they experience acne, it's a cycle that never ends of these endless products and endless attempts.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I that's very interesting to to understand that.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um now, okay, I have to ask you about retinols again and acids, because you know, I am a huge fan of using, you know, my masks and anything that has um some sort of an acid that that works to exfoliate my skin.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: Now, one thing though, with using acids or retinols, do they actually thin your skin?
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: And um, can you tell us about that?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, if somebody says to me, Well, Jan, if I use retinoids and I use glycolic and I use, you know, azolake and all that, won't I thin my skin?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a sarcastic answer.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: I say, I hope so.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: So keep in mind that our stratum corneum that I talked about, that dead layer, as you get older, it gets thicker, it gets disorganized, and you don't produce those same substances.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it starts to look coarser, it doesn't have that same really radiant, vibrant, refined look.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then our dermis gets thinner.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's 80% collagen, and it gets thinner and thinner.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we want the opposite.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: We want our stratum corne to be really thin.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like a baby skin.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: You look at a teenager, look at a baby, that skin is just so flawless and it's so refined looking.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's very thin and very compact.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Never in the history of the world has an eight-year-old come home from school and said, Yeah, I had a really hard day, I need a moisturizer.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it doesn't matter if it's snowing outside.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that that skin is just very thin and very compact, and it has lots of those hygroscopic substances, and the dermis is very thick.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: And when you use retinoids, when you use glycolic, when you use these various acids, they actually thin and compact the serratum corneum and they thicken the dermis.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, the right retinoid will thicken the dermis up to twice as much.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: And not only that, but the using the right retinoid will actually correct instructions coming from your DNA.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the reason that we see aging changes, and we talk about, you know, most of the damage you're going to see in your lifetime happened before the age 10 got programmed into your skin.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: What that really means is that those instructions that your body sends out are compromised, and it's the only instructions that your body looks at.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't matter whether you have a sunburn or whether you're, you know, trying to um repair a broken bone or a hangnail.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: How you do that is dependent on those instructions.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the right retinoid actually corrects instructions coming from your DNA.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: I love that you put it that way.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's something that I think um definitely, definitely is very interesting to me, uh, you know, on a genetics level, because I know a lot of people are like, you know, I have acne because of genetics, I have acne because of this, my DNA is already flawed, you know.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I always talk, I just I just wonder, you know, how do people really think about when they think about DNA damage or when, you know, the things that we're talking about here, what do they really perceive?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: But that's very interesting what you said.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: I I really want to know um one thing though, as far as um, you know, uh moisturizers, because you had brought up, you know, little kids don't need moisturizers.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: Now, do we need some sort of an oil in our moisturizing routine?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, what kind of moisturizer should we really be using and how do oils really play in there?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it really when we when we think of moisturizers in a traditional sense, you think about something that lubricates the skin and provides barrier function.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Vaseline does that.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm not saying saying we go out and use Vaseline, there's lots of products that do that.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, what I want to see in a product is not just something that is going to provide this sort of lubrication, but that is going to actually have technology that's going to affect the skin.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, the question that I have everyone ask themselves, or if you if you're going to a skincare provider, what they should be asking you exactly like this, is if there was something you could change or improve about your skin, what would it be?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now, most people will give you the number one concern.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's brown spots, maybe it is large pores or it's acne.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you ask somebody, well, what else would you like to change or improve?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: Typically you're going to get three or four different concerns.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: I call that your runway.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea in using any product is that you want to address every one of those concerns.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: I always say, I don't need another product, I want a solution.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about solutions.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: And think about how you'd feel about your skin if you could address every one of those concerns.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: So generally, people buy products because they see something that resonates about it.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this product makes your skin feel so wonderful.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this product is going to increase the moisture content.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of whether or not your skin is going to look absolutely flawless and fresh and glowing and plump and radiant, that is going to be about addressing every one of those concerns.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so just because something is a quote moisturizer doesn't mean that it can't have technology in it that doesn't just provide barrier function, but actually is able to uh to to address the the the so the runway, so to speak.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you cannot have everything in one product.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's another skincare myth.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we'd love to because we'd love to think, oh, we just, you know, the marketing ploy is that you use this one product and it's got retinoids in it, and it's got glycolic in it, it has lipoic acid, and it has all these different ingredients, and that's all you need to do is one product.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, number one, when I'm developing a product, mathematically, I can only work with 100%.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: It can't add up to 125.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: It can't add up to 150.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: And my first 50 is water because you can't bake a cake without liquid.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: Even though there's products that are coming out of Korea, they call them waterless products.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have certain things have to be solubilized.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: So my other 50%, I have to have binders and I have to have emollients and I have to have stabilizers because you don't want to open up the product and it's just this, it's just this mess, it's all separated.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and I also then I if I start putting in certain actives, and maybe I need 12% of something and 5% of something and 3% of something, and then all of a sudden I've run out of room.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I could just put in less and not have a product that's really efficacious, and I could still charge you just as much, if not more.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: But really, you want to separate out the product, you want to separate out your technologies into different products because also just because it has glycolic and a retinoid in it doesn't make it better.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: Retinoids have to be at a pH of around five.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Glycolic, in order to be effective, has to be at a pH for home care around 3.5.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: Lipid side needs to be at seven.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there's also manufacturing processes.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very complex.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's more complex to make a skincare product that's efficacious than it is a drug.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because a drug, you're working with one ingredient.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: How do you get it through the FDA?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: You don't get it through the FDA by mixing it with green tea and everything else because they're gonna look at that one ingredient and determine is it efficacious?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: What trials have you gone through?
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you're gonna put it with the simplest base you possibly can.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: With skincare, you've got look at your ingredient listing.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: You have all these ingredients that may or may not counteract each other.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's exactly.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, you are really speaking the truth here because this idea of mixing ingredients, I've been trying to say this.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's a lot of there are a lot of brands that approach me and they have these products that you're that we're talking about here, which is an all-in-one, right?
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm always my first question is, how do you know that chemic the chemistry of this works?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: How do how in the you know, how in the heck are you gonna combine, like, like you said, you know, you use glycolic and retinols as an example, even with natural products, how do you know that one is not canceling out the other?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: How do you know that the kinetics of the, you know, the the compounds is actually, you know, beneficial?
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's actually doing what it's supposed to do by the time it goes from manufacturing to bottling to on your face.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_03: That there's no way, it just doesn't make any sense scientifically.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I yeah exactly.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: And another myth is that somehow the Food and Drug Administration is somehow watching out for that.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: The Food and Drug Administration does not regulate skincare cosmetics.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you go to their website, there's a section in there for manufacturers.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Essentially, what it says is you can use any ingredient in the world in a skincare product, whether it is a drug or a cosmetic, if you don't make claims.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there's certain certain certain drugs that you can't use, but for example, let's take glycolic acid.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: If I talk about glycolic acid in terms of the appearance of your follicles, etc., and acne and all of that, that's one thing.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: If I make a claim for ichthyosis, which is a dry skin disease, now I'm making a drug claim.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: And what the what the FDA regulates is in terms of skincare is drug claims.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I could have a glass of water, and I could say, this glass of water is going to get rid of your lines and wrinkles, and the FDA will send me a warning letter and they'll say I have to take it off the market or I have to put it through a new drug application and prove that it does that.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, I could say that glass of water is going to dramatically improve the appearance of your lines and wrinkles, which is ridiculous.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: But the FDA will leave me alone.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the FDA is not out there determining that what you spend your hard-earned money on is actually working.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: They have nothing to do with that whatsoever.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so essentially these claims can be ridiculous and they're, you know, infer certain things that are just not true.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I I can I can definitely definitely stand behind that.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I'm so glad you said that about the FDA because I think people think that, oh, it's FDA cleared, it must be the holy grail to all of my problems.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's a really, really big misunderstanding of the process.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: They don't clear anything.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, you don't unfortunately, it doesn't get publicized a lot when somebody gets a warning letter.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, um, there are certain things that the FDA does very stringently um have oversight on, and those are the over-the-counter drugs.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sunscreen is an over-the-counter drug, yeah.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: Benzyl peroxide is an over-the-counter drug.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, with sunscreens, in terms of the actual sunscreen part of it, you can only make certain claims.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have a box with a certain line around it.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody is limited this to the same claims.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so there were some companies that got warning letters.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, even one product that was sold to Sephora's, which they were talking about how their sunscreen actually filtered out blue light.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well, first of all, that's a drug claim.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: Secondly, blue light is controversial.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we talk about it comes from our phones and our computers.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, guess what?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: Blue light can also be helpful.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the best that they've been able to, the best they've been able to determine about blue light is if you're exposed to it excessively for something like 300 years, maybe it could be a problem.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: So those kinds of things the FDA does have an issue with.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, I feel like these other things that we get told all the time about, you know, how wonderful um our skin is going to be.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of that is just strictly marketing.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_03: See, that's so I feel like I'm finally speaking to somebody who understands what I've been banging my head against when it when it comes to blue light, because I kid you not, I wrote a mini review and it was literally what you just said in a few sentences, but just more sentences.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_03: It was about uh how blue light, I mean, you know, and my biggest this is my biggest problem with that was, you know, I was like, I was I'm a millennial and we grew up with technology and had our technology plastered to our face pretty much, you know, for 30 years.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm pretty damn sure that did not do anything to my skin.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and so, you know, I I really I dug deep and I found exactly what you just said, which is um, yes, blue light can be definitely beneficial under certain, you know, for certain pathologies, but it's not going to be something you need a specific SPF for.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's yeah, you know, for example, let's just say you had something like um attenokeratosis, and you're gonna go and get an aminoluvinic treatment, which is something that attenuatoses are precancerous lesions.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so aminoluvalinic acid is something that you can either do at home over a period of weeks or you could do it in a very short course where they're gonna put it on your face and they're gonna put a blue light over your face to activate it.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of going wearing it for days, you're gonna have a few days of you know, where you you're not gonna like your skin.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: By the same token, they're also using amino aluvalinic acid in some cases for people that have acne and using a blue light.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: And act and blue lights are oftentimes used for acne, infrared light for aging, blue light for acne.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you go on and on.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: Everything, you know, you it's it's it's very complex.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very hard to make these absolute statements.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's just it is very complex.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, the skin, like we said, going back to it, it's it's the most, if not one of the most complicated organs.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: Period.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: There's no, I don't care who you are, dermatologist, surgeon, you that this is a fact, you know.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, one thing I I think this leads me to ask you is um, you know, in terms of sunscreen, right?
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: We're discussing sunscreens, and this is a huge topic.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_03: Do we all need to wear sunscreens?
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's a lot of people who have, you know, uh darker skin tones that are like, well, we don't need to wear sunscreen because we have melanin and melanin protects us.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I want you to really talk to us about sunscreen, what we should, you know, who should be wearing it, etc.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody needs to wear sunscreen.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's true that if you have more melanin your skin, the darker your skin is, the more built-in protection you have.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: But there are lots of people with dark skin that develop um various skin cancers, and sometimes it's it's not it detected as easily.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is you have got to wear sunscreens indoors.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, they it and actually UCLA has done studies where if you are in a house and you've got, you know, nice big windows and the lines are open and you're letting the sun in, it's kind of like a weekend on the beach that you're getting all this indirect sunlight.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the UVA range of light, we don't have enough time to get into all that, but the UVA range, which kind of penetrates your skin like an X-ray, yeah, it goes right through 50% goes through the windshield of your car.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: It goes through light clothing.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you're wearing a really light t-shirt, it's like the equivalent of wearing an SPF2, so it's virtually nothing.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: And not only that, but it's the same intensity all year long.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you are in a snowstorm in January, you're getting the same amount of UVA light, even though it seems kind of dark outside as you are at 12 noon in August.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of the deeper changes that we see, and a lot of the pigmentation and things that aging changes that we see has to do with UVA light.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: But you need to wear your sunscreen all the time and you need to wear it indoors.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the key is finding a sunscreen that you absolutely love to wear.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh one of the things that people hate about sunscreens is they they just they feel like they're gonna make you break out, they feel greasy, they make your eyes burn on and on and on.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I make sunscreens that number one have an oil capture system in them that have an unlimited um ability to capture oil, but they can't capture water or actives.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if your skin is dry, it's soft and silky and glowing, and if it's oily, it's really balanced and just feels just really kind of normal and soft and glowing.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: And also you can put things with sunscreens because the best sunscreen in the world, uh, you're you're uh you're actually still going to get in about two, three percent or so radiation.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: So you can put things with sunscreens that can actually help to kind of um address that that gap and can also make it feel better on the skin and just have some really wonderful effects.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's so I you know, and uh honestly, I think you do make the best sunscreens in the world, Jen.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because I talk to um, you know, all the feedback we get from our uh episodes for the masterclass, it's you know, the sunscreen, they just can't, everybody is like, Jan, sunscreen is just the best.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, yes, well, you know, that's what happens when you have someone who is very, very intelligent and knows what they're doing.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I think uh with sunscreen, you guys heard it, you know, wear your sunscreen, inside, outside, everywhere.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, and I guess to kind of wrap things up, Jen, there's some questions I do have about um just eye care, right?
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_03: With like the skin around the eyes.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, one of the biggest things, and you know, I've been trying to uh really kind of get into this realm of getting men to be more on board with skincare.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: And as you know, men really suffer from crow's feet, I think, more so than women.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so I want to ask you do certain eye creams help with things like crow's feet?
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, can we really uh, you know, tack?
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: No?
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there's kind of two types of lines and wrinkles.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: So one is most of the fine lines and wrinkles that we see in textual changes have to do with sun exposure.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the other one is called dynamic muscle movement.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say you lived in a cave, you never had sun exposure, but you make expressions, you know, you squint and you smile and you move your eyebrows up and down.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: So certain muscles actually start working a lot harder than other muscles, and it creates a crease in the muscle, and you put the skin over it and you see a line.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's crow's feet, that's the parenthesis lines between the eyebrows, forehead lines, there's certain other areas of the face that are affected by dynamic muscle movement.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the main ones.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can put on all the creams you want, and you can look at the advertisements to say better than Botox.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: That is just absolutely ridiculous because what Botox does, and I'm not, I should be getting a kickback for Botox, but what Botox does is Botox actually disables certain muscles that are overworking temporarily, and other muscles take over, but within a matter of days, that crease is gone and it stays gone for you know three or four months.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's dynamic muscle movement.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna get that from if a cream could do that, you would paralyze your entire face.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: We'd all be walking around looking like we had a stroke.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: Bell's palsy everywhere.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, your whole face.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, and you know, they have there is uh some studies going on for a topical Botox that would be done in a doctor's office.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's been going on for several years.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact is they can't figure out how to keep it from, you know, maybe you put a little patch in an area so you don't have to use a needle, but they can't figure out how to keep it from spreading.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the one thing, you know, you use the needle, it's very precise.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're very precisely disabling certain, you know, little muscles.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you can even make one eyebrow, you know, can you make your eyebrows look a little higher?
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's things you can do with Botox that are kind of artistic.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: But um creams aren't gonna do that.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can soften it now underneath the eye I can make a huge difference there.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: Also so so first of all, um your your your eye rests on a fat pad goes all the way around.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: That fat pad is held in place by a membrane skin, it's like a girdle.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so those I can actually help to increase sort of the collagen in that area, making it look like it is just um tighter and firmer and more contoured.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: We can decrease the appearance of dark circles because what happens is you have leaky blood vessels, and that's bilirubin and veridirubin, and it colors the skin underneath, and we can actually I've got something that can get rid of that about 300 times faster, gets it out of there.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: We can actually with retinoids, we can significantly decrease.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is it is like a it's like magic being able to decrease the fine lines and wrinkles under the eye area, and we can also um kind of temporarily make that fat pad look a little less noticeable because we can sort of um increase circulation and decrease some of that water retention in that area.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there's you know a lot of things that we can do for that.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_03: I like that you mentioned uh the use of retinoids in the eye area because I know a lot of people are very scared of that.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, I think technology is definitely catching up and there are safe options, right?
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_01: For you can take you could whether it's a prescription or non-prescription.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now most that's a whole other story about understanding the difference between prescription and non-prescription, because uh the the non-prescription can actually be even stronger.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: But um you can put them right up to the lash line.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna fry your eye area, and you should because that's it, it makes a huge difference.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's that's really, really I love that.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_03: I love that you clear that up because I do that.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna lie, I do it.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_03: I when I put my on, I uh I dab a little bit around my eyes and I hey, I can vouch for what you're saying.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_03: It work, it does work.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_03: You're right.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so well, that was, you know, Jen, honestly, I feel like we could do this for hours and hours and hours.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I know.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I I wish we would because I there's just so much misinformation.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_03: But these are some of the, you know, you answered so many amazing questions that I, you know, we see everywhere.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_03: TikTok, Instagram, you name it.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I really hope everyone listening, you guys got um, you know, just a little taste of really, you know, the truth here.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you like what you heard, and if you have any more questions, definitely please let us know.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I would love to do a part two of this too, actually, um, with you, Jan, if we get some questions, because you know, the myths never end at this industry.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's like they just keep popping up.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know who's creating these false claims, but they're everywhere.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_03: So Yep.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's cut, it's it's it's constant, it never stops.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, well, thank you everyone for listening.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we will definitely be back next time with another topic because um, you know, this masterclass is definitely the highlight um for us here at Skincare Anarchy.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_03: We've been learning so much, and I hope you have too.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_03: So leave us your comments, leave us your feedback.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely go check out um, you know, Jan's entire product line and definitely schedule a consultation if you have any kind of concerns.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I, you know, I will tag everything in the concept art for this.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_03: But thank you, Jan, as always.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_03: This has been so awesome.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, everyone who's listened in because I wouldn't be here without you.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much, and thank you so much.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was a pleasure.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really appreciate it.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_03: Likewise, thank you.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 1:09:52
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