Latest / iwon™ podcast with Michael J Thomas / Two Unlikely Founders With One Big, Bold Vision for the Future | iwon™ podcast | Season 2 Episode 1

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Two Unlikely Founders With One Big, Bold Vision for the Future | iwon™ podcast | Season 2 Episode 1 · iwon™ podcast with Michael J Thomas

• 0:00
  How do you stop a business disagreement becoming a relationship disagreement?
• 0:04
  We don't live together and it's brilliant.
• 0:06
  Would you genuinely recommend that strategy?
• 0:09
  Probably not.
• 0:10
  David said he didn't want a permanent relationship.
• 0:12
  Not now, not ever.
• 0:13
  We are now six years down the line and we're still together.
• 0:16
  How do you know which ideas to keep pursuing and which ideas to just let go of?
• 0:20
  There's a bit of a balance between persevering and perverting.
• 0:24
  Don't underestimate the power of being you, bringing what you bring from your industry.
• 0:28
  I don't believe in failure.
• 0:30
  I jump in.
• 0:31
  I make mistakes.
• 0:32
  I make a fool in myself.
• 0:33
  I pick myself up.
• 0:34
  The more you take action, the more things open up, doors open up.
• 0:37
  But you need to take action.
• 0:39
  You don't take action, nothing happens.
• 0:41
  Where do you find a technical founder?
• 0:43
  A tech meetup?
• 0:44
  LinkedIn?
• 0:44
  Y Combinator?
• 0:45
  Tracy and David's answer is much simpler.
• 0:48
  Tinder.
• 0:49
  Welcome back to i1.
• 0:50
  It stands for it wasn't overnight because most business podcasts make success sound much cleaner and faster than it really is.
• 0:56
  This.
• 0:57
  This show is about what happens in the middle.
• 0:58
  The false starts, the uncomfortable decisions, the sacrifices, the lessons, and the work nobody sees before anyone calls it an overnight success.
• 1:06
  Today I'm joined by Tracy Aitken and David Carboni, co founders of Hair Tracker.
• 1:11
  Tracy spent around 30 years in hairdressing and salon ownership.
• 1:15
  David has spent his career building technology, leading engineering teams and working as a cto.
• 1:21
  Two completely different worlds, yet partners in life, partners in business.
• 1:25
  And somehow those worlds collided to create Hair Tracker.
• 1:30
  I want to start in the only sensible place you can.
• 1:33
  Tinder.
• 1:33
  Tracy and David, when founders ask where to find a technical co founder, you'd say Tinder, wouldn't you?
• 1:40
  Oh, 100%.
• 1:42
  Would you genuinely recommend that strategy?
• 1:44
  Probably not.
• 1:45
  It seemed to work well for us.
• 1:47
  Obviously, we didn't go into Tinder looking for co founders.
• 1:50
  We didn't even go into Tinder looking for a life partner.
• 1:53
  If we can say that, I feel like I was duped in some ways.
• 1:55
  Yeah.
• 1:55
  David said he didn't want a permanent relationship.
• 1:58
  Not now, not ever.
• 1:59
  We are now six years down the line and we're still together.
• 2:03
  I think I realized pretty quickly I wanted to renegotiate.
• 2:06
  Now, the more slightly dangerous version of that question.
• 2:10
  Would you recommend starting a business with your life partner or would you tell people to run for the hills?
• 2:17
  I actually had another long term partner before David and he was also my business partner.
• 2:22
  So we had various talents together.
• 2:25
  And I knew before I Met David.
• 2:27
  If I was going to have a life partner, I knew that I wanted a business and I knew that I wanted that partner to be part of that business.
• 2:34
  Because the conversations you have and the energy that goes into it and the working round the clock, you're not going to get that from anyone else.
• 2:41
  Even if the two of you are tight and you get, well working together, you can't turn around to them at 2 o' clock in the morning and say, oi, what about this?
• 2:48
  Or what do you think of that?
• 2:50
  Or go and fix this thing.
• 2:51
  You just can't do that.
• 2:52
  You get all this extra time that you spend together talking about things, and that's what I enjoy doing.
• 2:59
  I want my partner to be there for me 247 if I need him to be there 24 7.
• 3:05
  Yeah.
• 3:05
  Because we met around lockdown, so we had a lot of time just literally sitting on the sofa over there with a glass of Prosecco, just talking.
• 3:12
  So we had.
• 3:13
  We probably had a year or two of building the relationship, building the foundations, figuring out who we were.
• 3:18
  There's a lot of investment that goes into that.
• 3:21
  I think maybe some people just.
• 3:22
  They're like, I need to find a co founder, get me one off the shelf.
• 3:26
  I think for us, we.
• 3:27
  So much has gone into the foundations, the mindset, the sussing each other out and thinking, could we do this?
• 3:33
  That's what feels comfortable.
• 3:34
  So when you say during COVID does that mean you guys were.
• 3:37
  What was the term?
• 3:39
  Bubble?
• 3:40
  Yeah.
• 3:40
  Yeah.
• 3:41
  We really didn't see anyone else.
• 3:42
  It was just the two of us.
• 3:43
  And so David's in Edinburgh, I'm in five, so we're about an hour apart.
• 3:48
  And we just spent most of our free time together, didn't we?
• 3:52
  Yeah, there wasn't much else to do.
• 3:54
  That's lovely.
• 3:55
  And the Tinder story is brilliant, but the bit that I'm really, really, really curious about is what happens afterwards.
• 4:03
  Because when your partner is also your co founder, you can never completely leave the office.
• 4:08
  And I know you said, Tracy, about how great it was to be able to have that 2am conversation.
• 4:13
  How do you stop a business disagreement becoming a relationship disagreement?
• 4:17
  Because I know a lot of people who are co founders or co business owners, whatever we want to call it, but also partners and I.
• 4:25
  Is there a rule or boundary you could share?
• 4:27
  Yeah.
• 4:28
  Just don't live together.
• 4:29
  We stay an hour apart, we don't live together.
• 4:32
  And it's brilliant.
• 4:34
  So if we need time apart, we have time apart.
• 4:36
  When we're together, we're together.
• 4:37
  If there's something that we need to resolve.
• 4:40
  Sometimes it's just an issue comes up and you're not in the right frame of mind to deal with it.
• 4:44
  And when the two of you are in that environment, you've got no option.
• 4:47
  It's just there all the time.
• 4:49
  But when you live in separate houses, you don't pick up your phone.
• 4:52
  You take a night, two nights, whatever.
• 4:54
  You need to process everything, to work things through.
• 4:57
  You wait until, for me, in the morning, when you're in a good space, and you talk about it then.
• 5:03
  So, thankfully, we've not really had any.
• 5:05
  Big, major issues, I think, also because, in a sense, we do have very separate lanes.
• 5:10
  So if it's a question about, is this product working for a hairdresser?
• 5:14
  I'm like, I will have an idea, but I will always defer to Tracy.
• 5:17
  And if Tracy's like, okay, is that going to work for the tech, David?
• 5:21
  You tell me.
• 5:22
  So I think sometimes maybe if co founders have similar backgrounds, maybe it's a little bit harder, I think, also just because we had a long time to figure out principles and mindset and who we are and what we
• 5:31
  value.
• 5:32
  I think a lot of the decisions are always.
• 5:34
  They're always done in that frame.
• 5:35
  They're not really, should we do A or B?
• 5:37
  It's like, which of A or B aligns best with, I don't know, human flourishing or elevating a hairdresser or making them more successful in the salon?
• 5:45
  I think we're quite good at both looking at it through the same frame.
• 5:48
  And even when we disagree, we at least agree about the frame.
• 5:51
  It's just how you fit the picture in the frame.
• 5:53
  We also have another motto, and David got put on a T shirt for me.
• 5:57
  And it's always, if you're at a crossroads and you don't know which way to go, I always say do both.
• 6:04
  We don't have to choose.
• 6:05
  It isn't A this way or that way.
• 6:07
  So when we had two logos and we didn't know if we're going for the white or the blue, it's like, let's have both.
• 6:12
  We'll just get a separate business for the other one.
• 6:14
  When we're going to America, do we go to Miami or do we go to la?
• 6:18
  They both have the pros and the cons.
• 6:20
  Let's do both.
• 6:21
  If there's an opportunity to do both, because we're both on different sides of the fence, like, we will definitely do both first.
• 6:28
  At what point do you kind of say both?
• 6:31
  You make A decision or do you feel that comes naturally?
• 6:34
  Yes.
• 6:35
  And sometimes it's so obvious.
• 6:38
  Like we could be thinking about should we do this and should, should we do that and we just look at each other and we're like, duh, let's do both.
• 6:45
  It's so obvious now to us, like if we can't be both, it's the.
• 6:48
  Teacher saying let's do both.
• 6:50
  Yeah, yeah.
• 6:50
  Got T shirt thing.
• 6:51
  Do both.
• 6:53
  Before Hair Tracker, there were a couple of other ideas that you worked on together.
• 6:56
  Capture Me and then also brilliantly named Ping My House.
• 7:00
  I think there's a useful lesson in that for founders because we're constantly told to keep going, keep pushing and never give up.
• 7:07
  But sometimes, I'm sure you'd agree, the smart thing is to reflect and make a tough decision.
• 7:12
  With your guys experience, how do you know which ideas to keep pursuing and which ideas to just let go of?
• 7:19
  In some way it does come down to instinct and there's a bit of a balance between persevering and pivoting.
• 7:25
  I think we like to sense if we, if we're trying to do something and it starts to feel hard, it feels like something's pushing back.
• 7:31
  So something is saying either sometimes it's just saying try something different or like it might say not now or there is a level of instinct to this.
• 7:39
  Right.
• 7:39
  It's not, it's not purely rational.
• 7:40
  So Tracy had the idea for Capture Me for storing baby photos and this was great.
• 7:45
  There wasn't anything out there at the time, but suddenly a whole bunch of them appeared and we were like, it doesn't feel deep enough that there's space for a lot of these to be there.
• 7:54
  And then with Ping My House we got quite a way down.
• 7:56
  We built a prototype.
• 7:58
  It was kind of half working, but at some point we, we started actually digging in and talking to.
• 8:03
  I think we spoke to Zoopla and those came back and said, well, you guys need to be an estate agent.
• 8:07
  We're like, well, we're not really an estate agent.
• 8:09
  Could we buy an estate agent or get trained as an estate agent?
• 8:13
  Do we even want to be estate agents?
• 8:14
  And we just thought it doesn't feel like us.
• 8:17
  It doesn't feel genuine.
• 8:18
  I think at some point we just looked at each other and went, look, you're a hairdresser, I'm a tech guy.
• 8:23
  Let's do tech for hairdressing.
• 8:25
  At which point Tracy's intuition just went, well, I know exactly the one thing that, yeah, the one thing that's bugged me Forever in my career, and I can't find anything to do it.
• 8:35
  So at that point, we're like, well, we've got founder fit.
• 8:36
  We've got the idea, and it doesn't look like anyone else is doing it.
• 8:39
  So great.
• 8:40
  We're in.
• 8:40
  Looking back now, do you look at it all differently?
• 8:44
  So the whole Capture Me and Ping My House, did it feel like a failure at any point, or was it effectively the starting point for Hair Trucker?
• 8:52
  At what point did they emerge?
• 8:53
  Okay, well, firstly, I don't believe in failure.
• 8:56
  I'm not buying into all that.
• 8:58
  I don't think there's any such thing.
• 8:59
  I think everything comes with gifts.
• 9:01
  And what Capture Me did is that gave me my first introduction to tech.
• 9:06
  It helped me understand a little bit about it what was going on.
• 9:09
  Looking back, I still knew nothing.
• 9:12
  Then David and I decided to do Ping My House, which was selling houses without estate agents.
• 9:17
  But we got so much value from that.
• 9:19
  We learned how we work together.
• 9:22
  We learned how our brains work together.
• 9:24
  We got to figure each other out, see how each other works.
• 9:28
  David does things that I wouldn't necessarily do, and vice versa.
• 9:31
  We got to see each other's strengths, each other's weaknesses, and we thought, this is brilliant.
• 9:35
  So that just.
• 9:36
  We knew that we wanted to work together because we had had that practice run.
• 9:40
  So, okay, it wasn't the right business model, but we got so much value from that.
• 9:44
  So then when we moved on to the next one, and I have to be honest with you, it hit me hard because we had spent over a year, and I said to David, I am not leaving this house.
• 9:53
  I am not going out socializing until we get a business up and running.
• 9:57
  It's like, I waited long enough, so I stayed in for the whole year, didn't I?
• 10:00
  Pretty much.
• 10:01
  David's like, what do you want for.
• 10:02
  Your birthday during COVID or post Covid.
• 10:04
  Yeah, this was post Covid.
• 10:05
  Yep.
• 10:05
  Didn't go out.
• 10:06
  Didn't.
• 10:06
  So you were allowed out.
• 10:11
  Building this.
• 10:12
  Once we had the hair tracker idea, it really was a case of, right, I want an app for my birthday.
• 10:16
  So I was like, great.
• 10:17
  I'll just.
• 10:17
  I've done all the.
• 10:18
  All the cloud stuff, all the web stuff.
• 10:20
  I'm like, well, I'll just go learn to build an app.
• 10:22
  Then David misunderstood what I said when he said, what would you like for your birthday?
• 10:25
  What I meant was, I wanted him to start building the app.
• 10:28
  David heard, I want you to build me the app.
• 10:31
  I want it for my birthday.
• 10:33
  So he's frantically Building this app in the background.
• 10:35
  And when I realized there was a miscommunication, I thought, hmm, I, I'm just going to keep that to myself.
• 10:40
  This has worked out quite well.
• 10:42
  What's interesting as well about that, I love the fact that, David Fairplay, you're setting a bar that's too high for the rest of us.
• 10:49
  By the way, building an app for your, your, your partner for that birthday isn't easy, I imagine.
• 10:56
  But going back to the idea, what's interesting is that the idea that eventually stuck wasn't necessarily the cleverest in inverted commas, tacky or most glamorous one.
• 11:08
  It was a problem that you'd been living with Tracy, you'd had for decades,.
• 11:14
  30 years, and I was still having the same problem.
• 11:17
  I feel like through those early experiences could say the product that we built was the co founder relationship.
• 11:23
  So we took two or three years to build the co founder relationship.
• 11:26
  And I've been in a few startups and various young companies before and I'd always seen that it's the, if the co founder relationship doesn't work and it really is, it really is relational at that point.
• 11:37
  If that relationship doesn't work, like it doesn't matter what you're doing, you can't, you can't survive like if, if you're falling apart on the inside.
• 11:44
  So I knew that that relationship had to be not only sound, but the word I've got is anti fragile.
• 11:49
  It's that, it's that sense of something that can, that can take the stresses and the knocks.
• 11:53
  And it's not that you build something that's then going to last.
• 11:55
  It's you build something that's going to continue to evolve and adapt as the situation expands.
• 12:02
  So you saw this problem, you guys discussed this problem that Tracy had been living with for decades and you, you lived with record cards for around 30 years.
• 12:12
  You said.
• 12:12
  When did you both realize that this actually needed solving?
• 12:16
  I'm intrigued as to when you realized that like there was this gap.
• 12:20
  Right.
• 12:20
  A lot of people talk about the miraculous aha moment for founders.
• 12:24
  So I think that was probably me in the salon and just being so frustrated with these record cards.
• 12:32
  And also I'm dyslexic, so I, I don't like writing anything down.
• 12:36
  So you're having to write down on paper, which I have resistance to.
• 12:39
  Because you're dyslexic, you maybe see numbers and letters the wrong way.
• 12:42
  I'm putting them back in the box.
• 12:43
  They're going back in the box in the wrong Places, which means I can't find them again when I need them, which is very frustrating.
• 12:48
  And there was just lots of little different things.
• 12:50
  Also, because I'm dyslexic, I have a quite a bad memory.
• 12:54
  So sometimes I couldn't tell who the clients were from the record card or from the names.
• 13:00
  But if I had pictures, I thought this would make my so much easier.
• 13:04
  So I kind of had this idea in my head and I went onto the app store to see if it was there, and it wasn't.
• 13:11
  So then I went into.
• 13:13
  I'm on lots of hairdressing groups.
• 13:15
  So I went into there to see what people were doing or using, and I discovered that lots of hairdressers were having the same problems and they were trying to find different ways in which to solve this.
• 13:27
  So some people were putting notes into their.
• 13:30
  Using the notes in their phone.
• 13:32
  So some people were buying some software from Etsy or something that they were writing in.
• 13:38
  I thought, just for me, I can't be bothered with all that.
• 13:40
  I just want something that works.
• 13:43
  So after seeing.
• 13:45
  So after reading some of these, I then went to David.
• 13:48
  So to be fair, David and I had been together for over a year before I figured out what he did for a living.
• 13:53
  And once I figured out that he can make apps, I was like, huh,.
• 13:58
  Suddenly I'm really valuable.
• 13:59
  Yeah, let's do that.
• 14:01
  So you worked out that he was able to do this and what came next?
• 14:05
  So I think we just sat down and put our heads together, and David's really, really good at what he does.
• 14:11
  And we just kind of mapped out what it would look like, what we wanted it to do.
• 14:15
  We knew nothing about building a tech business, and we knew nothing about building an app.
• 14:20
  David had to figure all this out on the go, and so did I.
• 14:23
  But when we started building it, we then went to get educated on what it takes to build a tech business.
• 14:30
  And one of the things they said is, don't ever, ever, ever build your product just for one person.
• 14:36
  And we were like, oops, too late.
• 14:38
  Because we built the product for me.
• 14:42
  So it was exactly what I needed.
• 14:44
  It was dyslexic, friendly.
• 14:46
  It did.
• 14:46
  It was simple.
• 14:48
  It was just.
• 14:49
  Yeah, it was.
• 14:50
  It was exactly what I needed to run my business.
• 14:53
  Now that it's out there.
• 14:54
  It's not just about what Tracy wants now.
• 14:56
  We have a community of people that are saying what they would like the app to do.
• 15:00
  So we've changed and we've evolved.
• 15:02
  We've.
• 15:03
  It's evolved to accommodate everyone else's.
• 15:05
  Needs as well.
• 15:06
  I think that's the interesting part is that once we built something and Tracey was like, well, I don't think I can work without it now.
• 15:13
  If I see a name in the calendar, I know someone's coming in.
• 15:16
  I don't know who they are, but if I, if I could pull up the photo, I'm like, ah, right, I remember the hair.
• 15:22
  I can be prepared, I can run this well.
• 15:25
  Once Tracy started feeling like, yes, this is something I can genuinely run my business on, then that's where we started seeing if other people were interested.
• 15:33
  Was there an actual moment where you thought, hang on, we can build this for many more people in terms of.
• 15:43
  You mentioned that you built it for Tracy's business.
• 15:46
  It worked in Tracy's business.
• 15:47
  How did you work out creating a product?
• 15:49
  Because one of the dangers, obviously I know the reasoning behind the don't build for your one person or yourself advice, right, is that you can go way deep down a sort of path that maybe doesn't solve the main
• 16:02
  problem for everybody.
• 16:03
  How did you realize that the record card side of things and specifically the photos and all of these elements in these groups.
• 16:11
  Did you do some market research as well?
• 16:12
  Yeah, we asked questions, I put some loaded questions up.
• 16:16
  But we very quickly started going to trade shows and very quickly we're there, we're talking to hairdressers about it.
• 16:24
  Everyone was just like, wow, this is amazing.
• 16:26
  Never seen this before.
• 16:27
  What is this thing you're building?
• 16:28
  And because we started to get lots of positive feedback within the industry, we knew that we're onto something.
• 16:34
  The intention was always that it would be a product.
• 16:37
  Once we could see that it had landed, it was working for Tracey.
• 16:40
  I think we were also looking at industry trends so maybe not obvious from the outsiders and especially with some of the tax changes in the uk, it's no longer really economical to employ a hairdresser.
• 16:50
  So suddenly everyone's being made self employed.
• 16:53
  There's quite a structural shift in the industry there where people are going self employed.
• 16:58
  They need their records.
• 16:59
  They're probably going to move from salon to salon.
• 17:01
  Some of those clients are going to move with them.
• 17:03
  You see the tide shifting.
• 17:04
  So there's a bigger picture at play.
• 17:06
  We know it works.
• 17:07
  In the one example, Tracey already was the self employed hairdresser.
• 17:10
  So we had the ICP ideal customer profile.
• 17:13
  As we pushed into the other ideas, they pushed back and there wasn't enough depth to them.
• 17:17
  But this one just seemed to keep opening up and it just kept saying, look, there's Here, there's a deeper reason to do this.
• 17:22
  There's a structural reason to do this.
• 17:24
  At the practical level, it works, but also at that kind of industry level, it works.
• 17:28
  Sometimes I feel like we're speaking to Hair Tracker as a.
• 17:31
  Almost as a person or an entity that's saying, look over here, I need you to do this.
• 17:35
  Sometimes it feels like it's calling us or guiding us or just saying, look, I need this to happen and if you guys are willing to do it, I'll play nicely.
• 17:42
  Which is maybe a weird way of looking at it, but I think it's actually quite helpful to think of it as external to yourself.
• 17:47
  We started off with Hair Tracker and then people were like, ah, the beauty industry could do with this as well.
• 17:53
  So we then went and bought Beauty Tracker.
• 17:56
  Yeah, yeah.
• 17:57
  So someone already had it.
• 17:59
  So they had the.
• 18:00
  What's it called?
• 18:00
  The trademark.
• 18:01
  The trademark.
• 18:02
  We counted down the days.
• 18:03
  We watched it every day for six months, and the day they didn't review it, we took it.
• 18:07
  So we now have that.
• 18:08
  And then someone else was like, colleges, they're still using paper record cards.
• 18:13
  And this is bizarre because they're not even PDPR compliant anymore.
• 18:17
  So then that's another avenue that we've gone into as well.
• 18:19
  So it just keeps opening up and opening up.
• 18:22
  And I think that's when you know you're on the right track.
• 18:24
  If you're getting the door slammed in your face constantly, that's probably.
• 18:28
  You need to probably look at that and think, why is this door constantly slamming in my face?
• 18:32
  But when you're walking the path and the doors are opening, it's like, huh, this is a sign.
• 18:40
  We need to keep going with this and just see what unfolds.
• 18:42
  We sometimes say the language of the universe is action.
• 18:45
  It's like even just something quite small in front of you, you take action.
• 18:48
  You just step into it and then see what feedback you get.
• 18:51
  It's almost like you're.
• 18:52
  You take action, you get a bit of data, you get a bit of information.
• 18:55
  It might be a no, it might be a yes.
• 18:57
  Sometimes we're following the tiniest breadcrumbs day by day, but each time they lead somewhere or they don't lead somewhere, it just.
• 19:03
  It gives us more information about where we're going.
• 19:05
  I could not agree more with both of the bits of advice that you guys distilled there, which essentially the first thing is find the problem that solves for most people and recognize the signs that are around you that
• 19:21
  you're on the right track.
• 19:22
  And embrace the positive feedback.
• 19:25
  But also you were, Tracy, you were talking about the idea of, I believe, understanding the idea of what feedback you're getting and what it really means if people don't want your product and you keep getting doors slammed in
• 19:36
  your face to use that phrase that you use.
• 19:38
  There's probably a reason for that.
• 19:40
  It could be your sales pitch or it could just be.
• 19:43
  There are many factors to it, but founders sometimes spend too much time hunting for a huge big idea instead of listening to the problem they understand better than almost anybody else.
• 19:58
  It's really interesting when you're, you're talking about that idea of really taking on board that feedback and being yourself, which we, we talked about before the podcast.
• 20:08
  And you, you both have so many great stories to tell and listeners who do listen regularly.
• 20:13
  I meet everyone before, and Tracy, to that point, you gave me one of my favorite stories when we first spoke about the firewall.
• 20:23
  Yeah, I think it's a great example of how you don't need to have all the tech skills.
• 20:27
  You don't need to have it all figured out.
• 20:28
  You can offer so much more with your own knowledge.
• 20:31
  Everybody's got something to give.
• 20:34
  Do you mind telling listeners that story?
• 20:36
  No, not at all.
• 20:37
  So we were talking about me being a non tech person.
• 20:42
  I would say I was completely and utterly computer illiterate.
• 20:45
  I didn't know how to send an email.
• 20:47
  I didn't have a computer, never had a laptop.
• 20:50
  I just didn't do technology.
• 20:52
  And one day when I was in the salon, someone had called me up to do a security check because we're taking payments.
• 20:59
  So it was all about, how do we take payments?
• 21:02
  Is it connected through WI fi?
• 21:05
  Is it connected through a cable?
• 21:06
  And I'm answering all these questions, questions.
• 21:08
  And then the next question was, where do you keep it?
• 21:11
  And I said, oh, it's through the back.
• 21:13
  And then she said, is it protected by a firewall?
• 21:16
  To which I turned around and looked at the wall and went, huh?
• 21:19
  I said, well, I'm not sure if it's a firewall.
• 21:22
  I says, but I know it's definitely a fire door because it's a brand new building and I'm the first one in here.
• 21:28
  And she was like, bless her.
• 21:30
  She didn't laugh.
• 21:31
  But I knew from the next thing that came out her mouth, and I can't even remember what it was, meant something different.
• 21:36
  I knew she wasn't talking about the wall.
• 21:40
  I was like, okay, how did, how.
• 21:43
  Did you get from that to having the confidence to launch your own startup and Win and list it for multiple awards.
• 21:49
  I tend to jump into things I don't think things through.
• 21:53
  So for example, when I was getting into properties, I dabbled in the property market.
• 21:57
  I just jump in, figure it out when I go.
• 21:59
  When I got my first businesses, I never spent time thinking about it, analyzing it, whatever, just jump in.
• 22:05
  Then I had three salons, the exact same thing with tech.
• 22:08
  I didn't spend countless hours, days, years, going over everything and trying to think everything out before I started.
• 22:16
  I just jump in.
• 22:17
  And I'll be honest with you, I make an arsenal myself all the time, constantly.
• 22:24
  And I just think, for me, I just accepted, this is how I learn.
• 22:28
  I jump in, I make mistakes, I make a feeling myself, I pick myself up.
• 22:33
  So I'm quite.
• 22:34
  Rebounds quite fast for me.
• 22:35
  Make a feel of myself, bounce back, take what I've learned.
• 22:38
  And as long as I learn something from my mistakes, it cancels out the mistakes in my head, or that's what I tell myself, and then I move on.
• 22:46
  But thankfully, I've got David, who's brilliant with tech, and he's also very, very patient with me.
• 22:53
  I wonder, maybe I could tell a slight counterpoint to that story.
• 22:57
  I remember I've had a few experiences in my career of working alongside user researchers.
• 23:02
  So people who will actually go out and talk to the real people who are going to do the job.
• 23:06
  And there's just something incredibly.
• 23:10
  I really appreciate it, appreciated those guys because the way they could get into the shoes of a real person who was doing a real job, who would suddenly have to use some new technology that we were building and
• 23:21
  go, okay, however you see the world is normal, I'm the one who needs to adapt to you.
• 23:27
  And so I remember a time when we were at the computer with Tracy.
• 23:30
  I don't know if the little Windows message when you connect to WI fi and it says, would you like to connect automatically?
• 23:35
  And I know because I've seen that for decades, would you like to connect automatically?
• 23:39
  Means can I save your settings for you?
• 23:42
  But to trace it meant, would you like the computer to figure this out for you?
• 23:45
  And of course we said yes.
• 23:47
  There's a much earlier version of me that maybe would have been a bit judgy about that.
• 23:51
  But I saw that and I was like, I've never seen that message in that way.
• 23:55
  I've just learned something about how the technology needs to work for you.
• 24:00
  And I think for me, that's one of the things I find most precious and interesting and exciting about hair trackers.
• 24:05
  I'm Stepping into a world that I've never spent my life in salons.
• 24:08
  Like, it's not a world that I understand.
• 24:10
  Like, I can be a hair and beauty trade fair and feel like a complete twit because I literally don't speak the language.
• 24:17
  But I love it because I'm learning, I'm getting into it somebody else's world and seeing how they see the world, which helps me then understand, okay, fine, Building for you now I can build something more sensitive that hopefully
• 24:30
  you will never even notice what I did, because to me, that's the best design when it just works for the person who's using it.
• 24:36
  The interesting point that I love there, right?
• 24:39
  How do you design for everyone because you both are neurodivergent.
• 24:43
  I've got ADHD and million other things going on.
• 24:46
  How do you make that a really big part of what you guys do when you're building Hair tracker and updating it and developing it?
• 24:53
  I think first and foremost it has to be idiot proof because if I'm using it, it has to be super clear, super simple.
• 25:00
  I can't stand it if I go into an app and it's just so wordy and it's got things popping up everywhere and adverts this and I'm like, ah, like, go away.
• 25:08
  We had an idea of what suited me so again, going, it's not all about me.
• 25:13
  But that was like the starting point.
• 25:15
  And I think we just then listened to other people and just tried to adapt for them as well.
• 25:21
  We knew we wanted it simple.
• 25:23
  We knew we didn't want lots of junk in there.
• 25:26
  We know we don't want to overcomplicate things.
• 25:28
  I think what I learned really early on is salons are busy, right?
• 25:31
  Hairdresser's got better things to do than think about your app.
• 25:35
  So if it's not giving you exactly what you want at the point that you need it, that's a problem.
• 25:39
  So there's a word that I've been using that I really like, which I'll offer.
• 25:43
  I don't know if it's useful to anyone else, but I call it featuritis is this disease of trying to add value by adding more.
• 25:51
  And actually what we're constantly doing is thinking, what can go?
• 25:55
  What can we take away?
• 25:56
  And we're not always 100% disciplined about it.
• 25:58
  I'm not pretending we're good at it, but I think overall that you look at the app on every screen, there's probably just one button that's colored in pink and that's probably the button you want.
• 26:09
  So everywhere you go, there's just that visual language that says the screen does one thing.
• 26:13
  And here it is.
• 26:14
  I know what I'm like.
• 26:15
  I get incredibly frustrated by bad user experience as well.
• 26:19
  It winds me up something rotten.
• 26:20
  And Tracey see me in some foul moods trying to use apps that aren't working for me, particularly struggle with EV charging apps, they drive me wild.
• 26:27
  But I think maybe it's that sensitivity of everything needs to get out of the way so that the person who's using this can get their job done for me.
• 26:36
  That's my design principle that, that I bring to this.
• 26:39
  That seems to work.
• 26:40
  Yeah.
• 26:40
  Because I think whether you've got ADHD or you're autistic or dyslexic or whatever, the main thing is just to not let the technology get in the way of you doing your job.
• 26:51
  That's.
• 26:51
  That's what we're going for.
• 26:53
  And to be fair, we are, we are a new company, the product's still new and time will tell.
• 26:58
  We'll know five, 10 years down the line if we've done a good job or not done a good job.
• 27:02
  And maybe one, one counterpoint to that, building for everybody.
• 27:05
  So a lot of my past experience has been in UK government and building systems for the public, and they're super hot on accessibility and making sure that it is designed for everyone, for every browser, for every different physical
• 27:19
  and mental way of seeing the world.
• 27:22
  But interestingly, one thing we've consciously not done is to design for visual impairment.
• 27:27
  And I actually said to Tracey, like, is this important?
• 27:29
  Are there any blind hairdressers or any kind of partially sighted hairdressers?
• 27:33
  And I would love to hear if there are, but I think if things like colorblindness, if you're, if you're coloring people's hair, colorblindness is probably not something that's going to go with the job.
• 27:42
  Visual acuity, to be able to see what you've done on the hair is probably going to be incredibly important.
• 27:48
  So it's one of those areas where we've actually consciously not put that into the app because we don't, so far, we don't think it exists.
• 27:56
  I'd love to know if it does, because if it does, we'll put it in.
• 27:59
  But yeah, so, so certain things we, we've, we've made it really low text, really clear interface, thought carefully about the colors, but then other parts where we've just said, actually, so far, we don't think that's important.
• 28:10
  I Love the fact that you guys both seem to think less is more and keeping it simple in terms of you both and building the startup and getting the awards and really getting this off the ground.
• 28:22
  That requires a lot of confidence.
• 28:24
  What did it take and what advice would you give to other founders about confidence?
• 28:31
  Because you both are delightful.
• 28:33
  I hope people agree.
• 28:34
  Please comment below if you do.
• 28:36
  So, I'll be honest.
• 28:38
  When the first award that we built was the Innovate.
• 28:42
  Innovate uk.
• 28:43
  Yeah.
• 28:44
  So we applied, we got the money, we're very, very happy.
• 28:48
  But we just filled in the application form.
• 28:50
  We were like, we filled in a great application form.
• 28:52
  We're really happy.
• 28:53
  We're happy with the energy that went into it.
• 28:55
  It never occurred to us that we wouldn't win the award.
• 28:58
  It just didn't enter our head because we thought the application was good.
• 29:01
  Then when we won and then we started going out into the community, like the tech community, people were saying that it's very difficult to get money from Innovate.
• 29:10
  And we're like, oh, we didn't know because nobody told us.
• 29:13
  So we just assumed you apply and you get.
• 29:15
  I think innocence is innocence, fresh eyes, or just not knowing so much that you might not do it is probably helpful.
• 29:22
  This is also a bit woo woo.
• 29:23
  But I'm just going to say it.
• 29:25
  So we run very well.
• 29:28
  We think about energy and we think energy frequency.
• 29:32
  And if you want to win something, you need to be in that winning energy.
• 29:36
  So that's the energy that you put into your application form.
• 29:39
  So when we're filling in an application form, we make sure we fill it out when we're feeling good.
• 29:44
  We do it during the day, we don't do it at night when we're tired.
• 29:48
  And we put all the good positive energy in there and we just send it out to the universe and we don't question it because if you're thinking about manifesting, we don't sit at home and go, oh my God,
• 29:56
  what if we don't get it?
• 29:57
  Or we never think about the negative size, like not winning, because I feel like you're putting those negative fives out there to the universe.
• 30:04
  So we just don't do any of that.
• 30:05
  And balancing that also with the practical side, I'd spent years of my life writing government bids and pitching for contracts.
• 30:12
  I know how these application forms work.
• 30:14
  I know what the process is.
• 30:15
  Like.
• 30:15
  Tracy just said, let's get some free money.
• 30:17
  And I was like, well, let's have a look at Innovate.
• 30:19
  I know Innovate As a place that they fund biotech and space tech, all sorts of really interesting research.
• 30:25
  But as we scroll down the list, there was just this one competition.
• 30:30
  I don't think they've ever run it again.
• 30:31
  That was like, we want to encourage non traditional people, especially women from all areas around the country, to get into innovation.
• 30:41
  And I was like, tracey, this is basically written for you.
• 30:44
  If we take you as a person, your whole story, you perfectly fit this mold.
• 30:48
  So.
• 30:49
  So it was the, it was the right competition, it was the right story.
• 30:52
  I knew how to fill out an application.
• 30:54
  Tracy had all the credentials to meet what they were looking for.
• 30:57
  So there's something there where it's almost like it came to us.
• 31:00
  I've never seen anything like that on Innovate since.
• 31:03
  So I think I was going to.
• 31:04
  Ask you whether it was still available for listeners.
• 31:06
  Sadly not.
• 31:07
  And I would say always get yourself a female co founder because there's so much support at the moment for women in technology.
• 31:14
  That wasn't part of my calculation, but it just happened.
• 31:17
  I feel like a lot of these pieces have just fallen into place for us.
• 31:20
  I think if you're, if you're following the right track, if you're doing whatever the right thing is for you, whatever your mission happens to be in life, I think some of these pieces will actually come to you.
• 31:30
  You can't engineer that.
• 31:32
  I sometimes say the secret to improvisation is practice.
• 31:36
  Whatever experience you've got, whoever you are, whatever you play to your strengths.
• 31:39
  This episode isn't about me, but I have ton of similar fire door firewall stories and that everybody's got them right.
• 31:46
  Everybody's got something that we've all got an amazing strength and an amazing thing that we can offer to the world.
• 31:53
  And when you're talking about the grants and manifestation and just why would you want to put anything negative out into the world?
• 32:00
  I agree with what you guys are thinking in terms of really approaching things in the right way.
• 32:05
  And whether it be the awards, whether it be the Innovate grant, please, listeners do take confidence from this.
• 32:13
  You don't need to know everything.
• 32:14
  And as they pointed out, a bit of naivety stroke, being fresh or green, whatever phrase you use to an industry or to something completely new can be a massive benefit because hang ups that you might think are there
• 32:29
  because you're an insider could hold you back from doing the thing.
• 32:34
  So I was just going to say I've been manifesting for years and one of the things I've learned is you don't have to concern yourself with the how.
• 32:42
  I never concern myself with the how.
• 32:44
  I just decide, this is what we're doing, this is the direction that we're going in.
• 32:49
  Just keep walking in that direction and the how will show itself.
• 32:53
  The more you take action, the more things open up, doors open up, people present things and it just naturally opens up.
• 32:59
  But you need to take action.
• 33:01
  You don't take action, nothing happens.
• 33:03
  You keep taking action, doors are going to keep opening.
• 33:05
  And I think that's a lovely thing, especially for if someone's coming to this quite fresh or quite green.
• 33:10
  We managed to get into the local press a couple of times and actually that was something that we got through Innovate.
• 33:17
  They said, look, we'll give you a press release template and don't underestimate how much especially local press.
• 33:24
  They're looking for content, they're looking for good stories.
• 33:26
  And if it's not just a me, me, me story, just about, hey, I did this.
• 33:30
  If it's got some relevance to the local area, find an angle that is going to resonate with a local journalist and they will.
• 33:36
  They will probably publish it.
• 33:37
  That instantly becomes an external reference, which is something else we've learned.
• 33:41
  The more we're thinking about AI optimization.
• 33:43
  AI now can find all of these external references to us and what we've done.
• 33:48
  And suddenly if you go into AI and ask about digital record cards for hairdressing, it will probably recommend Hair Tracker.
• 33:54
  Almost by accident, we've ended up with.
• 33:56
  We've ended up doing more traditional media than social media, but just because we didn't think we couldn't, we just gave it a shot and then we were over the moon when it worked.
• 34:05
  And then of course, this podcast and of course, which will be available on all platforms.
• 34:11
  When you did this press release and they gave you this template, what was the story about?
• 34:15
  What angle did you come up with and how did it go?
• 34:18
  Because a lot of people don't think about pr and it's great, as you say, in the world of AI.
• 34:22
  I've got the advantage, though, because I guess Tracy doesn't necessarily see herself, but I have that kind of external perspective.
• 34:28
  I'm like, look, we've got an Innovate UK award here.
• 34:31
  We've got Tracy with this fantastic story.
• 34:33
  Being from Leven, small town in Fife.
• 34:36
  It's not a place that has a lot of tech entrepreneurship.
• 34:40
  It's the kind of place that really is trying to pull itself up by its bootstraps.
• 34:43
  So I'm like, look, here's an incredible story of a female founder who's gone out and won an award.
• 34:49
  She's building a tech business.
• 34:50
  She's moving from working in salons, being a hairdresser for 30 years to now building this new business in an area that doesn't have a lot of that.
• 34:58
  It's just a really good news story for the area.
• 35:01
  And I think that's as we've great and credit to.
• 35:03
  Tracy's done some great networking and met some other.
• 35:05
  Some other people in the area who have some influence.
• 35:08
  And as that story grows they're like, you guys are great.
• 35:10
  Can we do a case study on you?
• 35:12
  Oh, can we, can we feature you here?
• 35:13
  The place that the business is based actually also gives us an advantage because it creates a good story there.
• 35:19
  Yeah, we actually once after that one went really well, what we started to do is every time we had something to shout about, David and I would sit and write something and we would just send it out to
• 35:31
  the papers and then they would put it in the local press and we're like, this is brilliant and it's all free and AI picks up on it.
• 35:39
  It all goes into its database and it gives us more credibility.
• 35:42
  But I just think anyone that's got a good news stories and it doesn't even have to be about the product, it could be something around the product that you've done.
• 35:52
  Just send out your local press because apparently they're screaming out for stories and.
• 35:57
  It just like I said, yeah, it's an interesting.
• 36:00
  Like a lot of.
• 36:01
  A lot of Y combinator advice or traditional tech entrepreneurship advice rarely ever covers things like local press or as you touched on relationships.
• 36:10
  In terms of the relationships element, David, you mentioned that Tracy's been really good at networking and building those relationships.
• 36:19
  What sort of relationships have you focused on building and from that, what would you recommend to other people?
• 36:26
  Because I'm sure you've had like all of us, things that have worked and things that maybe could have worked better.
• 36:31
  I'll give Tracey the credit.
• 36:32
  So I'm more the geek.
• 36:34
  So I struggle being a people person now.
• 36:36
  I've done quite a lot of work on myself, so I've come across a lot better than I used to, perhaps in my 20s.
• 36:42
  But you come across very well.
• 36:43
  Thank you.
• 36:44
  But Tracey does have these natural strengths with her people particular way of being where actually people.
• 36:51
  If you're a hairdresser, Tracy would say that the haircut is only fifth on the list of what matters.
• 36:57
  What matters is does the person like you.
• 37:00
  So actually being able to welcome someone in, make them feel like the center of the world, instantly build a rapport, go straight into deep conversation, talk about the breakups, the breakthroughs, the breakdowns that builds such a.
• 37:12
  Such a warm and personal and strong connection.
• 37:17
  I look at these skills that hairdressing develops, and I think these are quite sorely missing in the tech industry.
• 37:23
  This is going to be really powerful.
• 37:25
  So I saw quite early on everything that Tracey was capable of.
• 37:28
  And I said, people like you run companies.
• 37:30
  You don't have to be a hairdresser.
• 37:32
  I love that you are a hairdresser.
• 37:33
  And I think we're always going to be connected to industry.
• 37:34
  But the transferable skills that you've got are incredibly powerful, and they're so sorely lacking in this industry that you've instantly got an advantage.
• 37:43
  So I think I would encourage anyone else who feels like they're wanting to do something with tech, but they're outside the tech industry and maybe they don't feel good enough.
• 37:49
  I'm like, hell, no.
• 37:51
  You guys have got stuff that just doesn't exist in this industry or it's just lacking.
• 37:56
  And I think, don't underestimate the power of being you, bringing what you bring from your industry.
• 38:02
  Because I think for me, the big thing about hair Tray, I always say I could never have built hair trackers.
• 38:08
  I just don't think like that.
• 38:09
  I'm not that person.
• 38:09
  I'm not in the industry.
• 38:10
  I don't understand the detail of how it works.
• 38:12
  Tracy's lived it for an entire career, so all of those product decisions are just so easy for her.
• 38:18
  She can just wheel them off.
• 38:20
  Tracy, if you, if somebody comes in, you make them feel warm.
• 38:25
  You're able to build instant rapport.
• 38:27
  Those skills are amazing.
• 38:28
  And yes, I agree with you, David.
• 38:30
  They're not just lacking in tech.
• 38:32
  I think they're lacking generally.
• 38:33
  But I guess the question just to.
• 38:36
  Just to add on to that point was really about how you've built your network, how you focused on relationships, and perhaps what you could recommend to another founder on how to go about doing it themselves.
• 38:49
  Because I know a lot of people worry about social anxiety, looking silly and inverted commas, all those usual things where it's.
• 38:56
  It's.
• 38:56
  The.
• 38:56
  It's.
• 38:57
  It's the worry about being judged, isn't it?
• 38:58
  Or not being good enough or not being smart enough or not being.
• 39:02
  Whatever the.
• 39:03
  Whatever the phraseology you tell yourself before Tracy answers this, because she's definitely done it forever, I'd just say that we've all got a version of that.
• 39:12
  Don't worry about it.
• 39:13
  Just Try and do it anyway, is my point.
• 39:15
  But, Tracy, in terms of you and building those relationships and building that network, what do you think has been the key to you being able to do that?
• 39:23
  And why did you choose that over maybe a more digital way of doing things?
• 39:27
  So I think in the beginning, I think what happened is I had never been in that environment.
• 39:31
  So we joined something called Tech Scaler, which was a.
• 39:35
  Was it like an accelerator?
• 39:37
  Yeah.
• 39:38
  So that teaches you how to build a tech company.
• 39:41
  So I think that ran for maybe like, eight, nine weeks or whatever.
• 39:44
  I think that gave me a good taste and a good understanding of what was actually was involved.
• 39:50
  It also allowed me to meet other founders that were in the same boat.
• 39:54
  I realized that I knew absolutely nothing about tech.
• 39:58
  I was so far.
• 39:59
  I felt like I was so far behind everyone else, but I feel like it was worth it.
• 40:03
  And some of those connections and some of those people that I met, I'm still friends with them today, and I still lean on them.
• 40:09
  And through that, you then find out about other events.
• 40:13
  So there's.
• 40:13
  There's a tech startup, there's the entrepreneur club, and there's so many local things going on.
• 40:18
  And I think just going.
• 40:20
  Just showing up.
• 40:21
  I used to find, although I'm good in the salon, when you take me out the salon and put me in a tech environment where I'm now trying to network, I found that incredibly difficult because I'm totally out of
• 40:33
  my comfort zone.
• 40:34
  But you keep pushing and pushing, and it gets easier and easier.
• 40:38
  And then I try to gravitate towards women because I find that easier.
• 40:42
  Then I wanted my own group, so I tried to create my own little group over in Fife.
• 40:48
  So this was for women that were the same as me in the same boat.
• 40:51
  So we can all just meet up, chat, talk, support each other.
• 40:55
  Because if you're not feeling comfortable in one group, you can just make your own group.
• 40:59
  Yeah, I think an underrated skill is.
• 41:01
  You call it vulnerability, but it's the same word as courage.
• 41:04
  So it's actually having the courage to put yourself out there, make yourself a little bit uncomfortable, and just.
• 41:10
  Just over time, getting more comfortable with things.
• 41:12
  Yeah.
• 41:13
  We also had the reverse thing, where now I go to hairdressing colleges or I go to hairdressing trade shows, and I'm the one who feels more uncomfortable.
• 41:20
  Tracy was very uncomfortable in the tech space.
• 41:22
  I don't know who I am in the hairdressing industry, but four or five trade shows in a few meetings in.
• 41:28
  And I'm like, okay, I'm Starting to get this.
• 41:30
  I start to figure out who I am in that space.
• 41:32
  Sometimes just that vulnerability, I think people warm to it.
• 41:36
  It's one thing to be impressed by someone, but it's something else to go.
• 41:39
  Do you know what?
• 41:39
  You've taken a bit of an emotional risk to be here.
• 41:42
  It is hard.
• 41:43
  It is hard to put yourself out of your comfort zone.
• 41:45
  You both touched on it.
• 41:46
  Tracy leaving the salon, David, obviously going into those sort of events as a couple and as partners.
• 41:53
  How have you looked at the idea of growing the business through colleges, et cetera?
• 41:58
  I won't ruin the answer because I don't know the full answer anyway.
• 42:00
  But the point is, what is your plan?
• 42:02
  Doing it with the skills that you have and knowing the industry as well as you have.
• 42:07
  You're going through the college side, I believe.
• 42:10
  But you can tell more.
• 42:11
  Yeah.
• 42:11
  So we as well as hair Tracker, we now have hair Tracker education.
• 42:16
  It's like an education version which we will be selling to colleges, not the students and not the stylists.
• 42:22
  So as far as we're led to believe, most colleges are still using paper record cards, which are obviously outdated and they don't comply with modern gdpr.
• 42:32
  We have had a few really interesting conversations with some key people, including, can we say, I don't know, it's kind of like the Scottish government and things like that.
• 42:42
  So hopefully we'll be rolling that out later on this year.
• 42:45
  Year or at least the.
• 42:46
  The pilot colleges will be up and running this year and then once we've done the uk, I think the next stage will would be to move over to Australia because Australia is very similar to the UK in terms
• 43:01
  of how they run their country and how their education system is run as well.
• 43:08
  Is the hair stylists being self employed, is that a universal thing across the world or is that more of a UK and Australia thing?
• 43:16
  I think it's very true in the US as well.
• 43:18
  So you now have.
• 43:19
  It's almost like a salon, but literally no one works there.
• 43:22
  So the business is.
• 43:23
  Oh, you rent a seat sort of thing.
• 43:25
  Yeah, exactly.
• 43:25
  I think they call them suites.
• 43:28
  Yeah.
• 43:28
  Or booths.
• 43:28
  So you have your own mini salon within this kind of larger complex.
• 43:32
  It does seem like the self employed hairdresser is growing around the world.
• 43:36
  I think the key insight for us there is because you're a self employed hairdresser, you need your own software that works for you.
• 43:43
  There is a question about data ownership there.
• 43:46
  And again, that's one of these key insights that goes along with that.
• 43:50
  Tied in the industry and is it.
• 43:51
  Fully like it's their data that they can export, et cetera.
• 43:56
  Is that the idea?
• 43:57
  Yeah.
• 43:58
  Typically as a stylist, you'd be using a system that's owned by the salon.
• 44:01
  So the day you leave the salon you lose access to all of your work, everything you've done.
• 44:05
  But obviously if you're just self employed, you're working in a suite, you're renting a chair, you need your own software and that, that needs to be separate from the salon software.
• 44:14
  Presumably you're thinking about the UK and the college route and the education route.
• 44:18
  And then you mentioned Australia and the education route.
• 44:20
  What made you.
• 44:21
  Because everybody's got like a strategy or at least a sort of plan of how they might get more people using the product and help more people.
• 44:30
  How did you come to the conclusion about the colleges and, and that route?
• 44:34
  So why tend to do, or what we tend to do is we write down our plan, our business plan, and then once it's there, you sit back and you look at it, you think, what would bigger look like?
• 44:44
  And then you try to think what bigger would look like.
• 44:47
  You're like, what would bigger look like again?
• 44:49
  And you just add on, add on, add on.
• 44:50
  That's why we ended up in America and that's why we're thinking about Australia.
• 44:55
  But I think the colleges came through.
• 44:57
  We were at a trade show, we spoke to someone and she said, oh, this would be great for the students.
• 45:02
  And that was it, that was all she said.
• 45:04
  The penny dropped.
• 45:05
  And we're like, right, okay, let's see if we can make this work.
• 45:08
  And the more we looked into it and we realized there was also a gap in the market there.
• 45:12
  They were still using paper record cards.
• 45:14
  We thought there could be an opportunity here.
• 45:16
  But a couple of things behind that as well.
• 45:18
  So one is on a very practical level, if you've got hundreds of students every year using Hair Tracker, as they're learning, they then move into the industry.
• 45:26
  They're like, do you know what I learned with this thing?
• 45:28
  I like it, I'm going to keep using it.
• 45:30
  It's kind of a growth flywheel for the business.
• 45:32
  But I think on the, maybe on the more mission scale is that we do feel like this is about digital transformation in the hair industry.
• 45:41
  Right.
• 45:41
  Like I've been to these trade shows, like the level of technology and chemistry and this industry is off the scale.
• 45:47
  Like it's, it's billions.
• 45:48
  I have no idea what the real number is, but it is huge.
• 45:51
  And I think the industry itself is Just different now than it was, say in the 60s or in the 30s.
• 45:56
  It's not just your local hairdresser.
• 45:59
  There are huge companies around the world producing extremely advanced products.
• 46:02
  People need to remember this stuff.
• 46:04
  They need technology to deal with the technology.
• 46:06
  I think that maybe the bigger insight is that this is an industry that has gone digital.
• 46:11
  It doesn't function the way that it used to and it's still using some of those old tools.
• 46:15
  So actually, if you step away from what the industry does and say, if you started from scratch today, what would you do?
• 46:21
  You would probably have things like Hair Tracker, things like software, salon software, that kind of stuff.
• 46:26
  So there's something there that says, we as Hair Tracker, Hair Tracker wants to improve the industry as a whole.
• 46:33
  And how do we do that?
• 46:34
  You're a hairdresser in college, you're a hairdresser in a salon, you're a hairdresser self employed.
• 46:39
  Wherever you are in your career, you're going to need these tools.
• 46:41
  And I don't think we're completely clear on that yet, but I think that picture is emerging.
• 46:46
  The more we're building this, the more that we see it's.
• 46:49
  It's not just an app for hairstylists, it covers the whole career.
• 46:53
  What does bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger look like for you both in terms of have you guys got the same clear vision on what.
• 47:01
  I'm just using your analogy of the business plan.
• 47:04
  What does Biggest look like for you both?
• 47:06
  The thing that I love about it is if you have, and it doesn't have to be Hair Tracker, it could be any product.
• 47:11
  If you've got a product that starts off as a product that can grow arms and legs, that's what I think about.
• 47:17
  So Hair Tracker is a digital record keeping app, but now we're going into education.
• 47:22
  Now we can have Beauty Tracker.
• 47:25
  Now we can be in a different country now we can have it in different languages.
• 47:30
  Now we want to add AI into the app and we're not sure what that looks like now, but we know we don't want something like a booking system because that's boring.
• 47:40
  People have been doing that for decades in a world of AI where anything is possible.
• 47:45
  Now you want something new and exciting to go in there.
• 47:48
  Like before ChatGPT came along, nobody thought about ChatGPT.
• 47:52
  It wasn't on your radar.
• 47:53
  But now that you have it, you can't be without it.
• 47:55
  So we want some sort of AI technology into the app where people are like, wow, this is amazing.
• 48:02
  And we do have a few ideas of what that could look like, but we'll keep that under, under our hats for now.
• 48:08
  Yeah, don't review it on here, but do, do keep us in the loop about new ideas, exciting new things.
• 48:14
  Because my vision when I started this, I don't know what bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger is.
• 48:19
  I just wanted to make a difference because again, I saw a problem where 1 in 200 people are the only ones who make it when it comes to software and tech.
• 48:27
  And it kind of shocked me.
• 48:30
  That's pretty bad.
• 48:31
  So it's really cool hearing about how you two are thinking through how you're going to develop it.
• 48:37
  It's really interesting that you're thinking about.
• 48:39
  Well, tangential to salons is beauty.
• 48:43
  Have you sat down and thought about any other ways that you might drive it forward and had any advice that you might like to share with founders listening if they're a little bit stuck with their product?
• 48:57
  I think we've just picked up the clues as we've been along.
• 48:59
  So I think getting involved in the industry, in the community, if someone pipes up and says, oh, this would be good for students, and then you're just like, oh, let me catch that.
• 49:09
  It's often just a very small insight.
• 49:11
  It feels very ordinary in the moment.
• 49:13
  But when, when you catch that and then you let it, you let that kind of worm work its way through and you're like, oh, it shifts what you think it can be.
• 49:21
  And when we started, this was just an app for Hairstylist, but it's.
• 49:25
  Each time we, we pulled in an extra clue or an extra piece of idea.
• 49:29
  So sometimes it does feel like we, we don't have this kind of fully fleshed out plan.
• 49:33
  We don't, we don't.
• 49:34
  There's no master plan behind this, but we are trying to follow the nudges, listen to where it's leading, and it does seem to open up new avenues.
• 49:43
  Something we have thought about that we didn't pursue at the time was could we build hair tracker branded physical products?
• 49:49
  So stuff that stylists need every day in the salon and they're just there in the app.
• 49:54
  You're like, look, I need a new set of bowls and brushes.
• 49:56
  Great, just send them to me now.
• 49:58
  At the time, it pushed back and it was just like, no, not, not quite the right time for this.
• 50:02
  But it feels like it's still there in the future.
• 50:05
  So we're still open to see where, where the clue comes that it's time to do something like that.
• 50:10
  But it's interesting, I think the phrase is there's economy of scale, but there's also economy of scope.
• 50:17
  So as you start to see other pieces that make sense, that whether it's hairdressing and beauty, again, that's kind of scope, if that makes sense.
• 50:24
  100% you're rolling back the years for me.
• 50:26
  I did economics at a level, so I remember economies of scale and scope and all that stuff.
• 50:33
  And 100%, I agree with your point and just talking about it and like, it's really cool to sit down with you both.
• 50:40
  I've obviously met you before, but you have so much energy and so much enthusiasm for what you're doing.
• 50:46
  To people listening who might be in a 9 to 5 look, we all have dreams of doing a thing, don't we?
• 50:53
  What advice would you give them if they're worried about escaping the nine to five and whether it's actually a myth or whether they should just play it safe for the usual fears that we all have?
• 51:06
  I would 100% say, if you're sitting on the fence, do both.
• 51:11
  If you're.
• 51:12
  If you're in a job and you've got a mortgage and you've got a regular income coming in and you're thinking about giving that up to start a business that's huge, you're probably not going to have the funds, you're
• 51:22
  not going to have the money.
• 51:22
  You might not be, or maybe you could spend, support yourself for a year if you're lucky.
• 51:26
  But most people don't have that luxury.
• 51:28
  What I would recommend you do is you cut down your hours and you do your business at the same time.
• 51:34
  That's what we did because we didn't have the money.
• 51:36
  So we just, we built the business in our spare time.
• 51:39
  We dropped down days in the salon, David dropped down days at work.
• 51:42
  And then as the business starts to take off, we will then drop more and more days down and we'll transition over.
• 51:48
  You could do it in one big jump.
• 51:50
  How much risk at a time?
• 51:51
  Yeah, we're just not in a position that we could have done that.
• 51:54
  That.
• 51:54
  Yeah, it's not for us.
• 51:56
  Yeah, we very much built this on, on four days a week.
• 51:58
  So we were both able to shuffle down our working pattern to four days.
• 52:02
  So that gave us one proper day.
• 52:04
  Because I think if, if you're just.
• 52:05
  If you're running on leftovers evenings and weekends after a 9 to 5, it's not enough.
• 52:10
  I've tried that before.
• 52:11
  I probably went through 10 years where I was like, I know I want to build something, but a.
• 52:14
  I don't have the idea and B, I don't have the energy.
• 52:16
  I think once, if you can just get to four days a week, you've got one clear working day where we'll sit down, we'll go through the list, we'll email the people we need to speak to.
• 52:25
  I will still work evenings and weekends building the software.
• 52:28
  But I think, yeah, creating a little bit of space so you're taking on a little bit of risk but without dropping everything at once.
• 52:37
  And you also know because when you're making that jump, you don't know if you're going to like it.
• 52:42
  You don't know if it's for you.
• 52:43
  Maybe entrepreneurship's not for you, maybe you're not meant to be self employed.
• 52:46
  You don't know that.
• 52:47
  But once you start walking down that path and having those experiences, you say, actually this feels all right.
• 52:54
  This feels quite good.
• 52:55
  I feel the energy will come and you'll feel like you want to keep going or you'll be like, oh no, like I want my 9 to 5 back.
• 53:02
  I can't deal with all this, all this pressure.
• 53:04
  This isn't for me.
• 53:05
  But I think that gives you a way to just test the water, see if you like it before you make the big jump.
• 53:11
  That's a really nice way to put it.
• 53:12
  It's getting a taste for it.
• 53:14
  So when you, when you get a taste for it, do you like it?
• 53:16
  It doesn't make sense for everyone.
• 53:18
  You have to be a little bit bonkers to do what we do and that's a good thing for the people who are slightly crazy.
• 53:24
  For a lot of people, the nine to five works, maybe that, that is your thing.
• 53:28
  I work for a lot of companies where I, I got my kicks out of what I could do within the company and I was, I was able to do some, some really fun stuff that may be slightly more
• 53:38
  intrapreneurship where you're, you're within a company but you're, you're doing something interesting that it is about finding what works you for, for you.
• 53:44
  I think giving it, giving it just enough longevity that when at the point where it could get boring or where you're just a little bit tired with it, do you still want to carry on?
• 53:54
  That's a really interesting point.
• 53:56
  And getting yourself to that point going, do you know what?
• 53:58
  Like with Ping My House we got to a certain point, we went, this just doesn't, doesn't feel like us.
• 54:03
  It just, it fell away quite easily.
• 54:05
  Whereas with Hair Tracker just, I found I just keep going with It, So it feels like it's intrinsic to me somehow.
• 54:10
  It's.
• 54:11
  It's something that I want to do.
• 54:13
  To me, that is a signal.
• 54:14
  But I think giving you, giving yourself a chance to get that signal, taste it, and even if it's not for you, it might lead you to do something, something different or something tangential.
• 54:23
  But more data.
• 54:25
  Again, it's taking action, picking up the data, figuring out what comes next.
• 54:29
  What I really like about you two is you go with you feeling and it's important that you enjoy what you do.
• 54:37
  Let's start with that obvious point, right?
• 54:38
  Money will only.
• 54:40
  I can only speak for myself here, but I did careers before I started my own business where I was earning good money and I was miserable and I was just like, the only reason I was there was because
• 54:50
  I thought, go and make loads of money.
• 54:52
  And then, and then, and then, and then.
• 54:55
  I love your advice because you're basically saying, from what I understand, tell me whether I'm wrong.
• 55:00
  Go towards what feels right.
• 55:01
  Take it in stages.
• 55:03
  Do what makes you feel comfortable.
• 55:04
  Get data to back up whatever it is you think is happening.
• 55:09
  As long as you're enjoying it, continue, but don't necessarily feel like you have to have all the answers straight away.
• 55:15
  And I think the word that I always go to is play.
• 55:18
  So if you're, if you're playing, imagine playing sport.
• 55:21
  It can be exhausting.
• 55:22
  It can be.
• 55:23
  It can be really hard, but it feels good.
• 55:25
  If you're in that space of play, you're getting a lot of flow time, you're enjoying it even when it's difficult.
• 55:32
  And I think that's a really good signal.
• 55:34
  And I think that word play is quite a good.
• 55:37
  It's a good one to keep in mind, especially when it's tough.
• 55:39
  If it still feels like the right thing when it's tough, then you're like, yeah, this is.
• 55:43
  For me, when you're doing something that looks like work to other people but feels like play to you, you're probably, probably in the right place.
• 55:50
  And this is maybe the most important piece.
• 55:52
  It's about growth.
• 55:54
  So it's about your personal growth.
• 55:56
  Something that's really caught my attention lately.
• 55:58
  So Eric Rees of Lean Startup Fame has just done a book called Incorruptible, and I've been listening to that on audio and it's really caught my ear because one of his central themes is about the idea of human
• 56:11
  flourishing.
• 56:12
  What work should do is help people to flourish.
• 56:15
  And I feel like in all sorts of ways this is something that I'VE been trying through every.
• 56:18
  Every project, every company, every team that I've built.
• 56:21
  How do I make sure that people are flourishing through the work?
• 56:24
  Because as some work feels extractive, like it's draining your energy, it's not adding value.
• 56:29
  It's just moving energy from one place to another.
• 56:32
  But if it.
• 56:32
  If what you're doing is enabling people to flourish.
• 56:36
  So I would hope that stylists using Hair Tracker are flourishing in the salon.
• 56:40
  I would hope that we are flourishing by building the business.
• 56:43
  I would hope that the industry flourishes as a result of whatever we contribute to it.
• 56:48
  That feels like creating value.
• 56:50
  But I think that idea of growth, of being able to grow through the experience of what you're doing, you both.
• 56:57
  Think very similarly, but also very differently.
• 57:00
  When we first talked, you talked about the idea of we share a brain as two neurodivergent founders, partners, co founders.
• 57:08
  What did he mean by we share a brain?
• 57:10
  And perhaps what advice would you put out into the world about that?
• 57:15
  I think David and I are very different.
• 57:17
  We're very different in how we think, how we see the world, how we approach situations.
• 57:22
  And we have very different skill sets, whether it's with business or people or interactions.
• 57:28
  And sometimes my brain is just really good.
• 57:30
  It's so on it.
• 57:31
  I can see things that David can't see.
• 57:33
  I can read people better in other ways.
• 57:35
  David's brain is 100 times better than mine.
• 57:37
  I'm good with the detail.
• 57:38
  Right.
• 57:39
  I can.
• 57:39
  I can go through code for hours and hours and hours and know that it's.
• 57:43
  It's spot on.
• 57:44
  Which would.
• 57:45
  That would drive Tracey up the wall.
• 57:46
  But I don't have the same level of insight that Tracy will have, or she would just see a certain situation and just get it.
• 57:52
  And she'll be like, right, we need to do this.
• 57:53
  And I'll hear that and just go, wow, that's brilliant.
• 57:56
  Let me catch that and put that into practice.
• 57:58
  Yeah.
• 57:58
  So we see.
• 57:59
  We can see the value in the way each other thinks.
• 58:01
  And there will be times where I'm just like, oh, David, I need your brain.
• 58:04
  I need your help with this.
• 58:05
  Or if David's got a situation, he's like, can you help me with this?
• 58:08
  Because you're so much better.
• 58:08
  And I'm like, yeah.
• 58:09
  And I think we just.
• 58:11
  We just don't question it.
• 58:12
  Now.
• 58:12
  If one of us needs something, we're there.
• 58:15
  Yeah.
• 58:15
  For founders listening, are you suggesting that in a co founder, one of the musts for you is a completely different way of seeing the world as In.
• 58:24
  I think it adds a lot of value.
• 58:26
  Yeah.
• 58:27
  A lot of value in it.
• 58:28
  Yeah.
• 58:28
  And I would say like with having that shared core.
• 58:32
  So it's almost like you take the idea of growth.
• 58:34
  Like we both, I think early on in our relationship we would say things like, you better keep growing because otherwise I'm going to outgrow you.
• 58:40
  Like there's that little bit of friendly.
• 58:42
  That's quite a fun phrase.
• 58:43
  I like that.
• 58:43
  Yeah.
• 58:44
  And so if you've got like a, a shared, a shared sort of debt depth as it were, but then you're very different on the surface in terms of the skills that you bring, I think that's incredibly powerful because
• 58:54
  you're always going to be aligned because that coherence and that alignment is gold.
• 58:58
  But then what you're able to do in service of that mission is you can, you can pick up each other's weak points.
• 59:04
  I almost don't want to say weak points, but between you, you've got the skills to do the whole thing.
• 59:09
  Yeah.
• 59:09
  So you're able to pick up, pick up where somebody may not find it as easy and vice versa.
• 59:15
  One other thing that we discussed when we were on the initial call was nail it before you scale it versus perfectionism.
• 59:23
  Could you care to share your thoughts on that for others listening?
• 59:27
  So, because we've bootstrapped the business, so we've done it with small grants, with savings, so it hasn't moved at the pace that perhaps a VC backed company might go out there and spend a lot of money and move
• 59:39
  something very quickly.
• 59:40
  On one level that can be frustrating.
• 59:42
  Right.
• 59:42
  We'd love to be full time on this business by now but, but what it does mean is that you've got time, time to grow the product, which is maybe the software but also the product that is the co
• 59:52
  founder relationship.
• 59:54
  And also there's just a maturing into the idea and understanding what it is that you're doing.
• 59:59
  On another level you could say actually it helps you fail small.
• 1:00:02
  Like if you, if you have issues with 10 or 20 users, that's better than 10 or 20 million.
• 1:00:07
  So there's something about going slower that can be really valuable because it just gives you time to become the shape of the company.
• 1:00:17
  So we'll often say sometimes we're growing the company, but a lot of the time the company is growing us and we take time to grow.
• 1:00:24
  And so I think if we were instantly successful, millions of hairdressers around the world using this, we probably would have hit a lot of drama and problems quite early.
• 1:00:33
  On, whereas actually we've had this extended period where it's become this really quite solid and reliable product.
• 1:00:40
  We've figured out how we work with it and I think we do feel like it's turning the corner now as the scale comes in.
• 1:00:46
  We've got the automation, the processes, the systems we've got.
• 1:00:49
  We know how we work together.
• 1:00:51
  We understand a bit more about the shape of this company.
• 1:00:53
  So I think if you're taking something quite raw and amplifying it to a huge level, that has its own class of problems, when you've got time for that to mature before it amplifies with scale, I think it's a
• 1:01:05
  smoother ride.
• 1:01:06
  A lot of people talk about startups being really hard or just all being frantic, but I think we've never really felt particularly frantic.
• 1:01:14
  It's never felt that hard for us.
• 1:01:16
  We've done hard things.
• 1:01:17
  But having the time to nail it before you scale it, it's almost.
• 1:01:21
  You're letting it mature into its own shape, you're letting yourself mature into the business, and then you have the structure with which to carry the scale.
• 1:01:29
  I really like that because actually you talked about a book you were listening to, one that you may want to list to that's very much along those lines is Think Slow, Act Fast by Daniel Kahneman.
• 1:01:40
  It's about the idea.
• 1:01:41
  You guys are.
• 1:01:42
  In my opinion, I think you guys are doing it completely the right way because you're getting it right in all the places.
• 1:01:49
  So the product itself is great.
• 1:01:51
  It's like the difference between the cobbler, the local cobbler, not that there are cobblers anymore.
• 1:01:56
  For those listening in the States, that means people who repair shoes.
• 1:01:59
  The idea of the cobbler making the perfect shoe and making it much, much, much better before ever making a second pair, as opposed to just churning out whatever and seeing what sticks.
• 1:02:09
  The way you two are doing it is great.
• 1:02:11
  That being said, I do have the, the obvious question.
• 1:02:14
  If an investor came along with loads of money for fun, I'll pretend I'm a dragon.
• 1:02:17
  Would you take it or would you.
• 1:02:19
  Would you want to continue to have full control, autonomy, all that?
• 1:02:23
  I actually don't know what Dave is going to say.
• 1:02:28
  No, no, no comparing answers here.
• 1:02:30
  That's you.
• 1:02:31
  We had a bit of a fun, fun night out in a bar in Miami, which I think Tracey tells very well.
• 1:02:36
  We've got to a point where we thought, if someone came along with bags of money, what would we actually do with it?
• 1:02:41
  And I think sometimes it's possible for a company to have Too much money.
• 1:02:44
  You've got a few million pounds just landed on you and you're expected to spend it.
• 1:02:48
  What are you going to do with that?
• 1:02:49
  Do you have an idea what you would use it for?
• 1:02:52
  We would just say marketing.
• 1:02:53
  Right.
• 1:02:54
  What's the best thing we could do for Hair Tracker?
• 1:02:56
  Get it in front of everyone who needs to know about it.
• 1:02:58
  So great.
• 1:02:59
  That's one thing we could spend it on.
• 1:03:00
  Do we know how to do that?
• 1:03:01
  Well, probably not.
• 1:03:02
  Not.
• 1:03:02
  Not today.
• 1:03:03
  So I think that that's something we need to learn.
• 1:03:06
  So is it?
• 1:03:06
  Yes.
• 1:03:07
  You would, you would take the investment?
• 1:03:09
  I think.
• 1:03:09
  I think it's probably a no at the moment.
• 1:03:11
  Yeah.
• 1:03:11
  And that's not to say that we.
• 1:03:12
  We wouldn't end up having the right conversation with the right person and go, okay, yes, I can see why this would be valuable.
• 1:03:17
  It sounds weird, but I want to say money is not valuable unless you can put it to work.
• 1:03:23
  Unless it has a function.
• 1:03:25
  Where's that money going to flow?
• 1:03:26
  So I think it's worth thinking twice about that.
• 1:03:29
  I don't think we are ready for investment because we don't know enough about it.
• 1:03:34
  We've always bootstrapped.
• 1:03:35
  We've never looked into it, so we don't know what's involved, how it works, how it would be structured.
• 1:03:41
  So until we get that knowledge, I'll probably go on our female cohort soon and I'll probably learn about all that so I can make an informed decision.
• 1:03:49
  We originally always said no, no, no.
• 1:03:51
  But like David said, when we were in Miami, I met an investor at the bar.
• 1:03:55
  He me quite a lot of his time.
• 1:03:57
  I think he just thought, here's this funny Scottish drunk girl hanging off my every word.
• 1:04:03
  And he gives us.
• 1:04:04
  He gave us lots of really good advice, which actually made me question, my God, do we want investment?
• 1:04:10
  But because we don't know enough about it right now, I would have to say no.
• 1:04:16
  Yeah.
• 1:04:16
  And I don't know what that means for the business.
• 1:04:18
  I don't know.
• 1:04:19
  And for us, it's not just about the money.
• 1:04:21
  It's what is this person going to bring to the business.
• 1:04:24
  We're more concerned about what is a person going to bring and what is their energy going to bring and how is that going to change the dynamics of the business.
• 1:04:32
  With now having three people in the mix, what does that look like?
• 1:04:36
  One thing that I always reflect on is when, let's say you get £100 million from an investor and you're only earning £10,000 from your customers, your biggest Customer becomes your investor.
• 1:04:46
  So now the business is geared towards the investor, not towards the customers.
• 1:04:49
  One of the benefits of being small and being bootstrapped is your customers are your life.
• 1:04:54
  You're not raising around, you're raising an audience.
• 1:04:56
  And so you're working for your customers, not for your investor.
• 1:05:00
  There's a discipline and a clarity about that that really keeps the business on track.
• 1:05:04
  And I have family members and I know other people who've raised investment and it can become really difficult to actually manage all of those different parts of your headspace.
• 1:05:14
  Whereas actually we just think about is the product right?
• 1:05:17
  Does it work for the customers?
• 1:05:19
  It doesn't go any further than that.
• 1:05:20
  Are the customers happy?
• 1:05:22
  Yeah.
• 1:05:22
  And we're up at 11 o' clock on a Sunday night putting out an update for somebody who's having issues on their phone.
• 1:05:28
  It's not that it isn't hard in that way, but it's very focused.
• 1:05:32
  Interesting.
• 1:05:33
  And I agree with you guys.
• 1:05:34
  I think people do take on investment too quickly without thinking it through.
• 1:05:39
  Even if they were to go ahead and do it and it was all right and it was the right person with the right expertise, etc.
• 1:05:44
  Etc.
• 1:05:46
  You still have to have a plan about how you're going to turn because ultimately an investment needs a return.
• 1:05:51
  It's an interesting question.
• 1:05:53
  I thought I'd ask you to and see whether you seem to be on the same page with that as well.
• 1:05:58
  In terms of your vision for the next year, what's your plan and how can people find out more if they are a hairdresser?
• 1:06:09
  Listening, for example?
• 1:06:10
  So I think our number one priority is to finish building education and to get that into the colleges.
• 1:06:18
  So that will start off in Scotland and then hopefully that will trickle down to England.
• 1:06:22
  So I think that's where all our energy is going at the moment.
• 1:06:26
  If you're a hairdresser and you want to know more, you can download us at the App Store or you can find us on Facebook or Instagram.
• 1:06:35
  And it's just Hairtracker app.
• 1:06:37
  I'll put it all down below, so don't worry about having to scribble these things down.
• 1:06:41
  Thank you so much for both coming joining me and sharing so much.
• 1:06:45
  It's been a really cool experience.
• 1:06:48
  I hope it's been a good one for you too.
• 1:06:50
  If you'd like to find out more about Hair Trekker or David or Tracy, I'll pop all the links down below.
• 1:06:55
  Thank you so much for listening.
• 1:06:57
  Last question before I go for you two.
• 1:06:59
  Would you still swipe right yes.
• 1:07:01
  Oh, hell, yeah.
• 1:07:02
  100%.
• 1:07:03
  David's actually had an upgrade now, so he's a lot better than what he was when we first met.
• 1:07:08
  So he's a definite.
• 1:07:09
  Right.
• 1:07:09
  One of the great things about dating a headdress dresser is you end up looking more attractive.
• 1:07:15
  One of the first things.