Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Sonny Rollins

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Sonny Rollins · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: look back at an eight decade career that took him
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: no longer actively listens to music, and for the first
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my phone conversation with the great
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: You were eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: was your first professional date and the first that I
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: can figure was with Babs Gonzales on Saint Louis Blues.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: That does that seem true?
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I know that I had began recording in I've laid foties,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: so I would imagine that it might be true. I
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: can't verify exactly.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Do you remember Babs Gonzales pretty well?
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Oh? Sure? Very dish is like a character you. Yeah,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I remember Mads very well. Babs. I liked my playing
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: a lot, and I used to make some of these
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: gigs that dads Gonzales had pole up a lot of
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: resists in the car and we go down to Philly,
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: or we go up to Boston or president an immediate area,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: and hey, so I got a chance to play with
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: some of my idols. I got a chance to play
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: with Faction of Varrow.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I want to bring that up the same year, when
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: you're still eighteen, you got to play on some pretty
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  Speaker 1: incredible un power records, well, Pouncing with Bud, fifty second
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels, I mean, just real,
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  Speaker 1: real classics, and you're playing on there with Fats, with
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Fats and Navarro, the amazing trump of player. It's insane.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it was. I mean, I guess I
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: had too many dogs in my head to even stop
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh, but you know,
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: so this is I credit bad.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: But and Jalous were doing that with getting me on
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: a lot of jobs with uh Fast of all, I think,
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I can't remember.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Some of me. Some other the the best players around
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: played with some.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: Of these jobs, and I was a young, young.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Pet and my having an opportunity to play with them
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: was tremendous.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: At eighteen playing with people like Bud, Poal and Fat
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  Speaker 1: and Navar. Were you were you nervous at all?
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Well?
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  Speaker 3: I was too stupid to be nervous, So I always
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: felt that if they wanted me there, then I'll just
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: you know that I should be there. I was never really.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: One of these guys. Was felt intimidated. I just felt well,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: look if they want me to read, and I'm just
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: you know, I guess I'm supposed to be here. So
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: it wasn't bad. So I went on and did what
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: I did. But it was certainly not on the level
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: of JJ Johnson and all of these people that I
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: was playing with when I was a teenager, right, I.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, we
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: still have around these days. He was on those Bud
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  Speaker 1: Powell sessions as well, the drummer Roy Haynes. Do you
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: ever have the urge to call someone like that these
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: days and just sort of confirm that these things actually happened.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: I called Roy upon his birthdays, and I always call
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: him up and we talk about things that we can
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: both remember. So Roy, I know from I know Roy.
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  Speaker 2: We know. We were a bunch of young kids wanting
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  Speaker 2: to play music. And Roy moved up in our neighborhood,
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  Speaker 2: up on sugar Hill they called it. We all knew him.
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  Speaker 2: And then Roy was playing with Leicester.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Yell, you must have loved Lester. I mean, I can
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  Speaker 1: imagine Lester must have been an inspiration for you.
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  Speaker 2: Lester Young was God, you know, and it was so
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  Speaker 2: good to get to know Lester Yell and to know
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  Speaker 2: that Lester Young liked to me because we used to
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  Speaker 2: be up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: one Broadway, and guys would be let's look at the
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: if for some guys coming musicians. He would call down
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: and tell a guy, no, say I'm not home. So
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: he you know, a lot of people came to see him,
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  Speaker 2: but he didn't avide everybody, and he liked me. He
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  Speaker 2: liked me and Matt Roach used to come out there
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: and I got a great friendship with the Great Prayers
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: and that gave me a lot of validation that I
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: was doing something right. Yeah.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy has a birthday coming up in
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: a few days here, so I guess you'll be probably
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: calling him.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Huh oh, yeah, I didn't know it was coming up here.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: I'll find out about it and I will definitely call him, definitely.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, man, Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: ninety one. Now, how long ago does an experience like
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  Speaker 1: that feel it this point? Like, does it even feel
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  Speaker 1: like it was in the same lifetime?
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  Speaker 2: Well? Yes and no it uh, you know, there was
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  Speaker 2: no in a life that's a tough tough question, because
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  Speaker 2: lifetime means, you know, the last week could be a
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  Speaker 2: different lifetime in a way of speaking, in a way
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  Speaker 2: it's a different yes, but still it was a lifetime
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  Speaker 2: which I was involved in, so it's not that different.
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  Speaker 2: But yes, it was different in so many ways, different
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  Speaker 2: musicians around, different venues around. You know, lifetime is a
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  Speaker 2: difficult word since I believe in reincarnation. I accept reincarmation.
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  Speaker 2: So maybe when you say it was a different lifetime,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: it vends up too many contradictory things to be able
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: to answer that precisely.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: No, I see what you mean. I see what you mean.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: I was watching an interview did the other night in
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  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used
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  Speaker 1: to Have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: the filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: and you were referring to yourself as old and not taping.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: You refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Now. You know, I've made so many mistakes in life.
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  Speaker 2: I've done some good things in life.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I was learning, which I was a learning experience.
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  Speaker 2: I think I was born a fairly positive person. Used
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: to call me the jesture. Well, no, I was your
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: little boy so and playing. So I think I had
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  Speaker 2: a positive personality all through my life. You know, that's
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: what we think, and it's good, but things happened to us.
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  Speaker 2: We get tested in life, and it's a long trip.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 2: And I've known so many people that didn't make it
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: all the way and ended up in terribo situations. I
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: was talking about my friend. There is a great drummer
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: from Chicago named Aike Day. They played with that day
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  Speaker 2: when I was in Chicago Reagon nineteen forty nine. He
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: was strung out on drugs and I was star sort
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: of strung out on drugs at the time. So that
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: was a different, different world. But it was one of
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  Speaker 2: those rivers I had to cross, so that it's hard
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  Speaker 2: to look back, you know. I made a lot of
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  Speaker 2: mistakes in life. I did some things in life which
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  Speaker 2: I like my music. I was already trying to get better.
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  Speaker 2: But as I said, I was a guy that wasn't
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  Speaker 2: afraid of trying to do something and playing with superior
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: musicians and all that. Because you know, I thought that
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  Speaker 2: I should be there. They wanted me to be there.
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  Speaker 2: We have to learn we have to try to be
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  Speaker 2: out the Golden rule when all that stuff got to
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  Speaker 2: try to do it. We don't get it now, we
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: have to try it again. Like it said in the
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: I'm quote I'm gonna start quoting that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, man, you gotta get it right. You can't do
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  Speaker 2: anything and get away with it. You gotta get it right.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: You don't get it right now, you're gonna get happy
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: get it right later because you reap. But to so see,
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  Speaker 2: some of these things are very important to remember that
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  Speaker 2: what life is aboved life is to find out the
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  Speaker 2: reason for life? What does it mean? And that goes
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  Speaker 2: on and on. Man who knows how many lives we
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  Speaker 2: have to live could read a brilliant Tridian who knows.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know, but I know that you can't get
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  Speaker 2: it generally in one lifetime. Some people are really advanced
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  Speaker 2: that I've read in life. I say, wow, their journey.
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  Speaker 2: They know a lot more than I do than some people.
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  Speaker 2: I'm ahead of some other people in their journey. I say, wow,
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  Speaker 2: I've learned some things. This guy hasn't learned, or this
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  Speaker 2: girl I even learned. All of these things mean something.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll
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  Speaker 1: be back with more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: more from Sonny Rollins. You know, I'm thinking about what
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: you've sewed musically, and that certainly is more and more
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: than I think many people, you know, whatever, contribute to
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  Speaker 1: one lifetime. And I was thinking about the year particular,
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  Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six for you. That year you played a
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  Speaker 1: date with Miles Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: remember that date? Oh yeah, Collector's Items, Collector's Items exactly.
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  Speaker 1: You played Serpent's Tooth. Did you interact with Bird much
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: on that session?
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Well, Bird was another one of my gruges, so of
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: course there was a lot of other some other things
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: happen on that particular session. And well, I guess I
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: might as were old say it. At that time, I
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: was still on drugs. I hadn't seen Charlie Riff Parker
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: or ours, he said, said Sarah. Sonny said.
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  Speaker 3: I told him.
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  Speaker 2: I think he said, yeah, how you doing. I think
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  Speaker 2: he meant that I bet my life together, And I
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: tell him, oh, yeah, yeah, Mandham, I'm doing good, you know.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: So I lied to him. I wasn't doing good. And
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: some guys in the band later on during the session
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: they read it on me. They said, oh, man, Sonny,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Sonny was getting high with this last night. So anyway,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: later on the session, after he found out that I
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: had lied to him, I had noticed something in him
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: had destroyed. He was had desponded. He was to know
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: that I had and not just me. Then I realized
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: maln Bird was so involved with all of the young
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: musicians trying to follow his music in his lifestyle was
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: killing him. The drug Yeah, knowing that all these young
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: guys were using drugs, it worth killing him, It worth
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: killing you. And I saw that at this session. So
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: you know what I said, Okay, that's it. I said
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: this to myself, I'm going to get off of drugs
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be so down
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: because some people are following his positive effect on their life,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: not the negative effect. And that's when I made my
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: decision to get off of drugs.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know that. I had no idea.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's part of this life that I'm living here.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: So I say, you know what I got off of drugs.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't know whether they need to know all of that,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't losing.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: It's very fascinating. Did you ever get a chance to
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: tell Charlie that you got clean? O?
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Well, what happened was this. There was a drug rehabilitation
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: place in Lexington, Kentucky. It was the first place where
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: every It was like the Betty Ford Clinic before the
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot of people were there,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: people that were into drugs, and movie stars were there.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: We were treated like patients, not as criminals anyway.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: So I was there for the cure.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: The cure was I been four months. I left Lexington
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: in five five fifty five. That's when I was this
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: charge or whatever you want to call it. But the
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: unfortunate maybe so maybe not. A part of it was
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: that Charlie Parker passed away one month before I got
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: out of Lexington, Kentucky. So I never got the chance
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to which I was waiting to do growing up your
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: berth mad him straight, Charlie m straight man. I would
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: convince him or he would know that I was so
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: anxious because I was so ashamed of lying to him.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Earlier on this record, Dag he just recalled. So I
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: was so anxious for this to happen. I would be
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: able to see him and convince him that I was
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: that I wasn't going to disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: that would denied me.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: However, I do believe in things like.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: The afterlife and all that stuff, So I think Charlie
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Parker knew wherever he was at that. Oh Sonny got
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: my message.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, really, when you think
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: about it too, it's pretty great timing that you got
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: clean in fifty five, because I mean, in fifty six
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: your career is really insane. Your output I'm thinking about.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: You know, you do Saxophone Colossus tenor Madness, you do
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Brilliant Corners with The Loneus, You do a lot of
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: your work with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: really incredible stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: that Brilliant Corners album with The Loneus Monk. That record
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: really blows my mind when I listened to it. It's
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: like spectacularly complex, especially that title track. Do you remember
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: was that a tough session? A couple of sessions.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very tough session. It was a little different than
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: the music that Monk could play before, as I remember,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: tough music, tough music. But everybody likes that record a lot.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: You already mentioned mad when they're talking about monks accomplishments.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, did you enjoy playing on it?
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: I think so. I think so. It was a hard
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: record to make, you know, it was hard. Everybody didn't
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: get it the first first go round, but yeah, sure
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: was playing with Mark. Playing with Mark was it was
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: a celestial experience. Whatever came out of it, and I
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: had that experience. And everybody liked that record a great deal.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: I know. Ernie Henry, another tenor player. He ended up
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: leaving I think one of the sessions, and then Clark
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Terry came in to sort of play. Did you ever
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: feel like leaving?
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, maybe if they kicked me out,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: but I'm not leaving on my own.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: No, you're not quitting.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: Oh, they'd have to show me the door.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of great people on that record.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: There was Oscar Pettiford was there, Max Rhoades, I believe,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and played the chilette. I forget. Everybody that was under
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: regulars from it. Was great. It was a little different
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: than some of the music he had done before, so
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: it was quite a quite a landmark.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, can you tell me about playing in the Max
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Roach Clifford Brown quintet with yourself and George Morrow and
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Richie Powell. It sounds to me like you guys had
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: incredible chemistry. Did it feel that way to you at
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: the time?
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Of course I had played with Mat for a couple
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: of times in New York, but when that was uh,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: the band was Clifford and he it was different. Was
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: right now I was doing more. I think I played
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: as a side man or something on some record Max
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Roads in New York. But when I played with the band,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: that band, it was really I don't know. I'm glad
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: it sounded like that because I had a great experience
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: playing with Clifford Brown, and comfort was such a straight
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: a straight up guy with such a straight up player,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: one of the mess players as we know. When I
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: look back today and I talk to different guys, all
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: these young guys, Clifford Brown was their favorite trumpet player.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: So he was quite a guy. But he was also
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: a great person. And I learned a lot from Clifford
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: because Clifford was playing all of this music, but he
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: was not a guy that was messing around with drugs.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: He wasn't a cno. So I said to myself, wow, man,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: listened to all this music he can play and he's
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: not had nothing to do with his personal life, So
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: you don't have to be using drugs, drinking a lot
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: and even gotten bad to play as much music as
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: he did. And that was inspirational to me and I
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: really learned for that. He said, Wow, man, if Clifton
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: should do it, Man, all his music he's playing, I
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: can do it. I don't need drugs to play. So
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: he was a grand We were good friends. I mean,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: you know, I was really close after he passed away.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: When when we were playing in the band, and sometimes
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I had channel Clifford, I said, Clifford, man, what would
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: what should we do right here? I mean I talked
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: to him like that about the music and then he'd
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: answer me. And that went on for a while run
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: before that band broke up. Max goot I did trumpet plays,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: of course, but that happened for a while and then
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: after a while I had stopped channeling Clifford and let
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: him go on on his journey his life journey, but
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I channeled him for a long time after he passed,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: and then you know, and we had to play the
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: same music, a lot of the same music.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: a quick break. We're back with the rest of my
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: conversation with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed away
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: in that car accident.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Well, the brand was in uh Brownie and Uh Richie
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: were in Philadelphia where they lived. Richie lived in willowgro
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: sort of suburb Brownie was in. So we had been
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: on the road to ben have been the road. So
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: we had a low time off before we went. I
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: think they we're going out to California, but on the
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: the days we had off, Marx and myself came to
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: New York and Georgia Morrow came to New York. You know.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: The next job was Chicago, and we left Chiclo travel
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: by car, and Brownie and Richie Powell left Philadelphia Tavern
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: on the Pennsylvania turnbake by car, Mark Say and I
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: and George Margutten. We got to Chicago, and we, you know,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: waiting around there. I remember Miles was playing at a
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: club right down the street on sixty thirty Street. So
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: while we were waiting for cliff to arrive into Carlo,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: we got the bad news. It was a soccer and
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: I mean we were quiet like babies, and there was
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: you know, there was a big event because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: I mean Richie too, but Brownie was you know, Brownie
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: was the leader and had gotten more accolades and Richie,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: you know, Richie was served, but she.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Was making his name at the time.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: Really, huh, he was making his name.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: At the time.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Incredible playing Brownie had made his name.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Really.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: of that or ever get a chance to talk with
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: how he took that?
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know how he took that note? No, I
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Did you feel like that band had more yet to do?
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I think so? We think you didn't know. Clifford and
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: now I used to practice together all the time, and
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: you know, as to musicians playing a saxophone and trumpet.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: So we were trying to get closer, trying to get
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: and I was new in the bands. I was trying
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: to learn the book and all of this stuff. But
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: besides that, there was this, besides the repertoire I was
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: playing with Clifford that he and I tried to always
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: get closer. So yeah, I think we had a lot
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: to do.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think they had anything to do with
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: you sort of stripping things back and go into like
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: that trio format the next year just just you on
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: sacks and then bass and drums. Was that related musically all?
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: I don't remember when I did the first trio albums that.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Would fifty around that time, yes, maybe six months later,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: eight months later, it would have been just.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. If no, I don't believe so,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: because I had always I had always uh enjoyed the
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: smaller instrumentation. You know. In fact, when our first met
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Miles Davis, I was playing trio and we were playing
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: opposite Miles. You know, Miles was the first Stars and
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: we was a local band, and I think I was
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: playing trio at that time, So no, I think I
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: think the trios I did didn't stem from uh the
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: cofored Brown period.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Were you surprised how curious people found that idea of
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: you just playing in that small trio you based drums
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: like you did on Way out West or not at
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: the vanguard.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I hope that it would be received Well.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it was. I think it absolutely was.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's it's.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Those seemed to have really stood the test of time
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: in an incredible way. But it's it's funny also just
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: in a way, how curious people find that you know
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: that that it's like, oh, whoa, you know, this isn't
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: this pianoist trio? You know, it seemed to sort of
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: well I.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Always liked that, and not play was a great piano players,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: So there's no reflection on plane. But I liked the
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: idea of just a rhythm section and allowing me to
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: sort of be free, in a completely free just compose
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: things in my own in my own mind and create
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: the harmonies and the musical situations, and just came to me.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: I had a rhythm behind me, I had the base,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: and I had the jums to keep things moving. Yeah,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: and I had the freedom to conceive of all of
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: these things. So that's why I liked flying Like that
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: had nothing to do with anything else.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, got you. There's some wild playing on those records
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: from you, some and even some incredible you know, evenm
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: other cats you know, like not at the Vanguard. There's
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: a couple of basils on that record that are great
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: as well. You know.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I tried to get his guys that weren't afraid
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: to play without a piano.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: See, a lot of guys just you know, would be
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: reticent to do that. Well they had, you know, because
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: the piano flits right in with the with a with
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: a base you know, like ham and eggs.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they I.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Mean, yes, oh wow, piano and drums here, base here
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: is playing years old they have. You know, those guys
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: can wake up in the middle of the night and
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: throw him and be writ in tune to the next note.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: So it was something which you know, you're it was
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: somewhat of a challenge to them.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was wilbur Ware by the way, be aware.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Wilbur Aware. We used to have a joke about Bilber.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: We used to call them wilburgh beware.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: That's great. Alvin Jones also on drums on that just
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: so j Yeah, incredible, incredible trio man Man.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Then I had some other guys on that. On other
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: parts of the record, I added a Pete le Roker
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: and another guy.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: From UH, Donald Bailey, Baltimore.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Donald.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Who is Donald Bailey?
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: I can't figure out who is Donald Bailey bass player?
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: I know there's a drummer, Donald Bailey, right, But there's
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: a drummer Donald Bailey. But is there also But I
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: can't find anything out about a bass player.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Donald Bailey was I know, I know he was very
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: under uh that's here for music. Nobody know much about him.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: How did you know him?
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: My good friend went to school down there at UH.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: I've watched college. I forget what it was, which is
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: you have to forgive me. You know, there's when you
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: get he said, he your your your memory, you know,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: your short term memory. It goes, you know, like ten
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: minutes from now. But I need it now. But I
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: had Oh but anyway, no, he's here. Was very but
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: he was known in the area, you know, and he's
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: a good player. You know, he played good. I liked
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: him on those things.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: I always thought maybe was someone that like just couldn't say,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: like you couldn't say who it was for some contractual
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: reason or something, because I was like, good, yeah, I can't.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Know this guy is I know down really and uh
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: unfortunately he passed not too long after those records came out,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: but they did a great, great job over your covering
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: me on that. Yeah.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Absolutely did the record Sonny Side Up that you did
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: with Dizzy Gillespie and Sunny Stitt in fifty nine. Oh yeah,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: how did that come together?
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Well? I came together to Norman Grange.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, of course did you know.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Who Norman Grande is?
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: He did jazz at the Philharmonic, right, you put on
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: all those all right?
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: So he was promote jazz. Yeah, he did a lot
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: of promotion of different people. And his crowned segment was
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: judged the poo monic. But he was a big time
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: or jazz promoter. He ain't replaying someplace. See, he's got
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: to be a big fan of mine. And then he
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: he was his date, I mean he arranged a date.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: That's it turned out to be, uh, Sunny and Sunny
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: and Dizzy.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Were you friendly with Dizzy at that time or
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: did you know him? Decently well at all.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was friendly with Dizzy. You know, if you
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: know Dissy at all, you've got to be friendly with him.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Just that type of guy he's I mean, he's always
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: going to be something light and amusing that becomes part
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: of the conversation. And you know, Dissey was a wonderful guy.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Dissey with the guy that always was teaching people stuff.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: You know, he don't really young Musard should be run
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: and he'd come in and you know, they showed to
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: get him on the piano and show the piano playing
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: some chords and sense chords, you know, stuff like that.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: He was a great natural teacher. I mean, I mean
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: he wasn't trying to diminish the gad. I don't mean
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: like that. I mean we were happy to have Bisy
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Gillespie there. That that was so you won't he wanted
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: to uh to teach, you know, not to dispact the
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: other guy at all, not in that sense in the least.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Just everybody was listening to what he was doing, saying.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: And playing that record some side up was kind of
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: an anomaly, I feel like in your catalog at least,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: you know, at the time, it felt maybe much more
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: like a dizzy record than anything else, which I think
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: is probably only natural.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: I think it it's a dissy records it.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's kind of like the three of
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: you got. I mean, you know it's it's named Sonny Sided.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: I mean there was Busy Gillespie. It was his session.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: I mean yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's fair, that's fair.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: That's such a cool record.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, some people liked it a lot. Some people musicians
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: really thought that that was one of my best records.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know what, you recorded that fifty seven,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: but it comes out fifty nine. The next year, nineteen sixty,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Lee Morgan quoted you on a Jazz Messengers record. He
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: did your little no no down just they're just this
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: little phrase that you do. Oh really and yeah, and
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: in Lee quoted you on this song called the Opener
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: on a Jazz Messengers record just the next year.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Oh it's good. Yeah. No, Ley is a great player. Yeah,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Lay used to come whenever's playing with Matts and Confidence
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Philadelphia at a club there. Lee would come by, you know,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: to hat Clifford. I mean, so that's another.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: Guy, I mean, the young guy that all loved Clifford
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: so much.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: So anyway, that's when they met to me. And uh,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: he used to play outside the club with his mouthweist alone.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: He would show me what he could do just playing
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: his mouth best. And those life says, they say, hey, man,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: that's good. Yeah, Lee Morgan, I mean, but he's great. Man,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: he's a great player.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: You never got to play with him, did you.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think so.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: No.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: I think that's one one of the trumble players that
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: I missed.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Would have been great to hear you guys together.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Man, Yeah, wonder Rogerson must have been a yeah, I'm sure.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: I'm sure I would have been inspired.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm curious. Is anyone you admire outside
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: of jazz in terms of musically?
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I admire all of the great musicians from
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: those centuries. I like js Bach, I like Brahms, Debut
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: C Revel, I like Fat Swawer, Louis Jordan Korsms my favorite,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: you know, and I like everybody. Yeah, I appreciate all
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: kinds of music.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Do you listen to music at all still? These days?
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Sure? Three?
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: What do you what do you listen to? What do
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: you enjoy listening to?
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Now? I don't listen to too much music. It's srange.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: I've listened to soul much music in my life. I
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: still think music all the time. I'm still playing my horn,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: even though I can't play my own anymore. I'm still
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: my imagine in passages that I would be fingering on
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: my instrumental, although I can't do that anymore. So now
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: listening to music. I love music, and occasionally I get
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: to hear music, aren't some of the radio stations I have.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Or I'll hear some music and I love it. But
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: I don't go out to listen to music anymore. I
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: don't mean go out in the street. I mean I
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: don't seek out music anymore.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Is it frustrating to hear in a sense since you
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: can't you just pick up your horn and play some
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: figures or anything.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: To a certain extent, I wouldn't look very completely as frustration,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: but that's part of it, because I hear something and
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: I fear what I would be doing what I can do,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: so in a sense I was safe. There's not all
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: all frustration because I love music and listening to somebody
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: that I admire is great. It's a great feeling. So
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: frustration might come a little bit because I should contribute
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: being that it was part of.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Your scene, Sonny it is. It was a pleasure and
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: an honor speaking with you. I hope we get to
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: do it again.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, man, take it even God bless you as.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Well, sir. All right man, Hi bye, Sonny. Thanks to
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins for taking us back to some of the earliest,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: most important moments in American recorded music history. To hear
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: our favorite Sonny Rollins songs, check out the playlist at
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast,
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: where you can find all of our new episodes. You
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: is produced at help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Talliday,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Maeric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafe.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Mia Lobel. Broken Record is a
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and
• 39:26
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• 39:30
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• 39:34
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• 39:37
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• 39:41
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• 39:44
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• 39:47
  Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.