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Transcript

#068_ STORY INSPIRE: Former Secret Service Agent Reveals How to Spot a Lie Instantly · INSPIRE STORY

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Being an interrogator, special agent with the U.S. Secret Service,
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I'm trained in the art of reading people's body language,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: verbal cues, I mean, even written statements. So you can
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: figure out who's full of BS and who isn't. So
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: one of the things I would see a lot of
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: guilty people do is.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Evie Pompouris, former U.S. Secret Service special agent.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Who protected presidents, worked undercover, and trained in the art
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: of lie detection, human behavior, and cognitive influence. She's now
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: on a mission to help us all benefit from the
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: lessons she's learned along the way. Evie.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: I want to go into all of the techniques, the
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: life lessons, the wisdom. So what are the core components
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: of how to get someone to do what you want?
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Everybody's motivated by something different. What you want to understand
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: is that person's motivational mindset. But the biggest mistake people
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: make is they.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: What about when your boss or your colleague isn't listening
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: to you? What should you do?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: So it's called paralinguistics. Everyone's so focused on what they say.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: They don't think about the tone, pitch of the voice.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: But there are simple things you can do to make
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: sure people hear you. First.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: You spent 12 years around people like Bill Clinton and
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama. Did you learn anything about leadership?
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: They're not driven by emotion. And the problem the majority
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: of people have is they bring their feelings into it.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: You don't want to be an emotional decision maker. It
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: never goes well. Pull back and be objective.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Evie. When you think back of your Secret Service experience,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: was there ever a day when you thought the president's
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: life was at risk?
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't think I ever talked about it, but.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: And then what was the scariest moment of your career?
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: There's another undercover case. All these things are escalating. Any second,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: he's going to kill my partner. I pull my gun out.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: That stayed with me.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Congratulations, Dario Vecchio gang. We've made some progress. 63% of
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: you that listen to this podcast regularly... don't subscribe, which
• 1:43
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• 1:49
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• 1:51
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• 1:53
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• 1:55
  Speaker 2: more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: and enjoy this episode. Eddie, if someone's just clicked onto
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: this podcast to listen... because they thought the title was
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: interesting or the thumbnail was interesting. With the understanding that
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about the work you're doing in
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: this season of your life and who you're doing it for,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: can you tell me exactly why they should stay and
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: listen to this conversation?
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: I think for each person it's different, but why should
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: you listen? At the core, we're always trying to become
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: something better. I wrote my book, Becoming Bulletproof, and I
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: think the essence of that was I'm trying to become
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: more than. And How about this? The day you think
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: you know everything is the day you become obsolete. I
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: live by that because I am never at my peak.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I'm always becoming more. So if you're looking to become
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: more and you don't know what that is exactly, then listen.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: All of this information we're going to talk about today,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: the techniques, the things you've learned, the life lessons, the wisdom,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: where does it come from? If I looked at your CV,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: what would I see?
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I probably, honestly, it came from, probably comes from growing
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: up in New York, daughter of immigrants. I think that
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: there's one aspect there. But I truly think the majority
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: is when I became a New York City police officer
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: and then I went to the U.S. Secret Service. And
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I went in young. I was like 22, 23. And
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: so while everyone's out at that age partying, doing whatever,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I went into this field and I was around a
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: lot of, a lot of other elite performers and thinkers.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: And I learned so much. Training humbles you. The job
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: humbles you. And then also working in the White House,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: being around other top performers, top thinkers, that really kind of,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: not kind of, I mean, that really, I grew up there.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I grew up in the White House. I grew up
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: in the U.S. Secret Service. That's how I grew up.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: So I think that those things helped shape me and
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: mold me, not just training, but also the people I
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: was around. I learned a lot, made many mistakes, but
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: I had really good, I don't want to say role
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: models because I don't like that word. I don't look
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: at anybody and say, I want to be that. No,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I want to be me. But I can look at
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: other people and learn and get inspired from them and
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: see what they do. So I had those examples that
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: guided me. So I think that's the majority of where
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: that comes from. And then the practicing of it, the
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: flexing that muscle. It's like a workout. You have to
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: keep doing that and being honest with yourself. You're a
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: secret service. Nobody wants to hear excuses. Nobody cares how
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: you feel. I don't mean it in a mean way,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: but they're like, we have a job to do.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: What is the secret service? I really want to zoom
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: in on your career experience to understand how the wisdom
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: you have was derived from different sort of seasons of
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: your experience. So a lot of us have heard this term,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: secret service agent. But in reality, if I look at
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: the span of your career, what did that involve specifically? Okay.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: So Secret Service, the United States Secret Service was actually
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: one of the oldest federal law enforcement agencies in the US.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: So they do two things. The one thing that they
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: do is they protect the president. Everybody sees it, right?
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Everyone's like, oh, that's Secret Service. That's all they do.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: No.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: In fact, even that unit of of people that you
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: see around the president, it's very hard even to get
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: in there. You don't automatically go and even if you
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: wanna go, it doesn't mean you're gonna get it. So
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: you do protection, president, former presidents, vice president, first ladies,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: even foreign heads of state. So when the prime minister
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: of the UK comes to the US, he gets protection
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: because we don't want him getting assassinated in the US.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: So all these foreign heads of state. So you're protecting
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: tons of people And it doesn't matter who it is.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: The job is I die for you, period. So that's
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: one aspect of it. So there's a very selfless aspect
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: of that, which goes against all your intuition, right? Because
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: even in law enforcement, as a cop or police officer,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: they teach you, hey, if you're getting shot at, you
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: make yourself small, take cover, then engage. U.S. Secret Service
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: is that all goes out the window. It's no, you're
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: getting shot at. You jump in front. And then make
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: yourself big, even bigger, to make sure the bullet hits
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: you and not the person behind you. So you have
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: to really rewire like something that's instinctual. That's protection. The
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: other aspect of it is investigations. They work investigations. Fraud,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of fraud, a lot of complex crimes. And today,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: fraud is global. So you'll be investigating somebody in Russia.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I remember there was one guy in Russia who was
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: committing fraud here in the U.S., He was going into
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: bank accounts of these very wealthy people. So the U.S.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Secret Service and Homeland and CBP, Customs Border Patrol, everybody
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: got together because like we have to get this guy.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: So they figure out, okay, he's in Russia. So the U.S.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: goes to Russia, says, hey, Russia, can you help us
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: get this guy? Can you send him over? And so Russia,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: of course, is like, no, we're not going to do it.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: To be fair, we wouldn't do it for Russia either.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: So it goes both ways. So then everyone had to
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: get creative. How do we get this guy? So they're like,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: all right, we're going to put a plan together to
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: lure him into another country, a neutral country. So this
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: plan goes into place. It's not my case. And it's
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: probably Friday night. I hear my boss calling from across
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: the way. He's like, hey, Pompyrus. Yes, sir. He's like,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: what are you doing tomorrow? I looked at him. I'm like,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: why don't you tell me what I'm doing tomorrow? He said,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Can you go to the DR, Dominican Republic? I said, sure.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: What do you need? He's like, you need to do undercover. Okay,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: what am I doing? He's like, we've got this guy
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: in Russia. We're luring him over from Russia to the DR.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: We want to get him and bring him to the U.S.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: You're going to go with your boyfriend. I'm like, who's
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: my boyfriend? He's a detective from the NYPD. I think
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: he was, I can't remember what grade he was. You're
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: going to be his girlfriend. You're going to give him legitimacy.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: You guys are going to convince this Russian to come
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: to the U.S. I'm like, where are we going to
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: do this? He's like, at a resort. I said, resort?
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: I'm like, what do I have to do? He's like,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: just make them look legit. You mean hang out by
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: the pool all day and just drink pina coladas? He said, yes,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: as long as they're virgin. I said, no problem. And
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: so that's what we did. We spent, I don't know
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: how many days at this resort, me and my boyfriend,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: who was like 20 years older than me, maybe 30,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: and dinners with the Russian, talking to him. And what
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: we tried to motivate him by is greed. Come to America,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: we'll sneak you in, and you'll make a ton of money.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: And Because we knew what his motivator was, more money.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: So he's thinking about it. He's thinking about it. We're
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: having a little bit of a hard time with him.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Then finally, it's the day before we're supposed to leave
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: on our private jet, which is Customs Border Patrol. And
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: I'm talking to my boyfriend's detective. I'm like, you think
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: he'll show? He's like, I don't know. So we're waiting
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: that morning. It's like five minutes to nine. We're about
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: to leave the resort. And we're like, he's not going
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: to show. Three minutes before nine, he rolls up. He's like,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: I'm in. So we board our plane. It's our private jet.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: It's Customs Border Patrol. Everyone's undercover. We get on. There's alcohol.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: I don't drink. There's food. He gets on the Russian.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: We fly from the Dominican Republic to Miami. We land
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: in Miami, do a refuel. It's all agents they're watching,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: but they're all reading newspapers. Everyone's undercover. We get back
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: on the jet. We fly to New York, and then
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: we land in Long Island in a very remote area.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: There's a limo there, our limo, my boyfriend's limo, with
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I don't drink, again, it's like Jack Daniels Blue Label,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: which is like the fancy, I guess, liquor. We get in,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: we get into the limo, and then we drive. So
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: now we got him in the US. We got him.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: The goal was to bring him to Brooklyn, to the
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge. And the takedown was, I take a photo
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: of my boyfriend and the Russian by the Brooklyn Bridge
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: wearing their Russian hats because he brought Russian hats. And
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: that was my clear, take us down, it's safe. And
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: so I put the photo up, the bridge is in
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: the back, My boyfriend's like, welcome to America. We're going
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: to commit all this fraud. We're going to steal all
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: this money. The Russian's super happy. Click. Everybody comes in.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: We're all in cuffs. That's an example of a case.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: If I back up there, you said that what he
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: wanted was more money. When you're trying to understand how
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: to get someone to do what you want to do,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: what are the sort of core components of that? I
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: spoke to Andrew Bustamante, who's the former CIA agent, and
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: he said he spent a lot of time undercover doing
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: very similar work, going to foreign countries, getting people to
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: like him, to trust him, and then to give him something.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: And one of the things he said to me is
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: you need to understand their ideology. He says of all
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: the things that make someone do something is understanding their ideology,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: which is kind of what you're describing there. I think
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: there's ideology. And the other thing he said, this framework, rice, reward, ideology, coercion,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: and ego. And what you described, I guess, is the
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: reward that that Russian guy wanted. When you're thinking about
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: how to get someone to do what you want, what's
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: the kind of framework? Where do you default to? And
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: here I'm thinking about business. I'm thinking about sales. I'm
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: thinking about all forms of persuasion because that's essentially what
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: you had to do. You had to get this total stranger,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: sounds like a stranger, onto a private jet and to
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: come with you to America.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to shut up because I need to
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: understand what you want. The biggest mistake people make is
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: they talk a lot. Stephen, if I'm doing all the
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: talking and you're doing all the listening, right? You're learning
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: everything about me. You're learning about what I care about,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: my values, my belief systems. You're getting a good read
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: on me. And I'm learning nothing about you. There's a
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: myth that people think if I do most of the talking,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: I have control. It's garbage. You have the power because
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: you've got me now. So what I will tell you is,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: and I know of Andy, what you want to understand
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: is that person's motivational mindset. What are you motivated by?
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: So that is your value and belief system. Everybody's motivated
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: by something different. But I have to hear you and
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: pay attention to you to understand what that is. Everybody's
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: purpose is different. The example I gave you with the Russian,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: he's motivated by money.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: How did you figure that out? Was that a certain
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: question or was it just?
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: One, his action showed it because he wants money. And
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: then in talking to him, I believe he had a
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: wife home. He had a kid home. He grew up
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: a certain way. So you just listen. Here, have a drink.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Talk to me. Let me know. If you give people
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: enough space, they will reveal themselves to you. But we're
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: so busy talking. We're so busy making noise because we
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: think everybody needs to hear me. I'm identity. Everybody needs
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: to know me, me, me, me. And you know what?
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Nobody cares.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Is there something in that as well where when you
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: listen to someone, they like you more?
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they like you more because everybody loves to talk
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: about themselves because everybody wants to feel heard. Now, I'll
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: tell you this, though. I'm going to push back on
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: the little bit of the like thing because even in business,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: people are like, I need people to like me. I
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: need people to like me. That is a trek for
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: disaster because now you're focused on not what your goal is,
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: but I need to make somebody like me. Those are
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: two different animals. If my goal is to do a
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: deal with you, then I'm going to focus on what
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: do I need to get this deal done. If my
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: goal is to get you to like me, which is
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: much more complex and much more confusing, and also it's
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: going to mess me up in trying to figure that out,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: I say this. Don't focus on making people like you
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: because you can do everything right and people may still
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: just not like you. Instead, focus on how about I'm
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: going to be competent in what I do. When I
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: say I'm going to do something, I follow through. When
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I say I can do something, I actually can do it.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: When I say I'm going to be there at 9,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: I'm there at 8.55. In the U.S. Secret Service, we
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: had a saying, if you're on time, you're late. So
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I show you that I'm competent. When you see that,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: are you going to like me for that? Yes, you are.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: I'll respect you.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Now, there's warmth. Warmth is the other element here. Warmth is,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I show you respect. So instead of me trying to
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: get you to like me, how about I just show
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: you respect?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: What does that look like in reality, showing someone respect?
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Is that, again, the timekeeping?
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: I'm listening to you. I show up on time. I
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: follow through with what I say I'm going to do.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I'm also open and approachable. I'm also nonjudgmental. That's a
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: big thing. Everybody is kind of like throwing their weight around.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you what I think. Let me tell
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: you what I think. Nobody needs to know what you think.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. If you're really trying to build a
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: connection with a person, then build it and let them
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: tell you what they think. Because now I see the
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: world through your lens, not mine. I always say when,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: especially I do a lot of keynotes and training for businesses,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: you don't matter. They matter. What do they want? What
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: do they need? What's important to them? Let them tell you.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: And then when they tell you, instead of trying to
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: guess how to enter a conversation because you're coming into
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: the blind, but what do I do? I shut up.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I listen. I let you reveal to me what matters
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: to you, what your values are. And then I come
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: in more intelligently into the conversation and I speak to you.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: You have to know your audience, but you don't know
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: your audience if you're doing all the talking. Everybody's motivated
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: by something different. If you take my motivational factor growing up,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: I was never motivated by money. My Russian was. Greed.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: That's fair. But I wasn't. Whenever I got a job,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I never looked at the pay. NYPD, I had no
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: idea what my salary was. When I went to the U.S.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Secret Service, I never once asked them, what's the pay?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Because I wasn't motivated by that. I was motivated by
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: the mission, by the purpose. But people will show you that.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: So the recruiter that talked to me probably realized this
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: woman never once asked me what her salary is going
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: to be. She's not motivated by that. Those are little
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: things that people show you. People will show you what
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: they care about if we just hold back, stay silent,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: ask good questions. And you know what? We're genuinely curious.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: I genuinely want to get to know you. I genuinely
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: want to understand you. I don't genuinely want to tell
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: you all about me. That's different. And the one factor
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: that's really important is not having judgment, being nonjudgmental. When
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: you show judgment to another person, they're going to filter
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: what they say. They're going to shut down. They're going
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: to hold back because nobody likes to be judged. I
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: would interview in the polygraph room, people who committed really
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: horrible crimes, crimes against children. A lot of people would
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: say to me, how can you sit there and listen
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: to it and not, you know, tell them what you
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: thought or not like ream them out. I was like,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: because my goal was to get information to see where
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: there are other victims and How did they do it?
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I want to know what they did so that I
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: can make sure that this doesn't happen again and that
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: I do maybe get information so I can get a conviction.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: And then I also want to know if there are
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: other victims out there. My goal is not to check
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: somebody and put him in his place or her and
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: tell them what I think of them. Those are two
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: different things. Also in the room, my goal was not
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: to get them to like me. My goal was to
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: get them to feel heard, to feel respected, for me
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: to be professional. And I think we bring the wrong
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: terms because it's confusing. If I want you to like
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: me too, think of it this way, that I'm going
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: to think I have to be nice to him. I
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: have to be his friend. And when you become in business,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: you can be warm. But when you start becoming people's friends,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: that's when the lines get blurred and we get confused.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: And in fact, there's research done by Susan Fisk and
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Chris Malone. And they say, be warm to people, be
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: open and approachable. But if you're overly nice, overly kind,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: overly polite, that's when you get rolled. You want to
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: find that beautiful balance where I'm a professional, I'm warm,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I'm nonjudgmental. Come talk to me, tell me. But at
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: the same time, I maintain my authority. I maintain my boundaries.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: What about when someone compromises your boundaries or disrespects you?
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: How do you react to that? Because I think I
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: have a lot of leaders around me in my various businesses.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: And I see sometimes that some leaders struggle with confrontation.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: They struggle with, you know, team member might disrespect them
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: in some way or might disregard might not deliver work
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: to the right standard and they might struggle with like
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: pulling that person in knowing how to do that and
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: how to address that situation and the avoidance of that
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: conflict obviously just causes a bigger future problem because you're
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: setting a new you're setting a new boundary right you've
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: let someone jeopardize or um cross a line and if
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: you don't i'm assuming that if in the moment you
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: don't address that they're going to cross it again in
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: the future This is really about like conflict resolution, interpersonal
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: conflict resolution. And when you've been disrespected, how do you
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: deal with that?
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: So the first thing I'm going to do is I'm
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: going to flip it back. What have you done to
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: let people think that they can do that to you?
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: That's the first thing I'm going to say. What standards
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: have you created or what things have you set up
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: to let people think, I don't have to deliver on time.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: I can't be disrespectful. I can't show up late for work.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: That's the first thing I'm going to say.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: So I would hazard a guess that I did. I,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: in the past, set a standard for this?
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Or in some way that I showed up in the past?
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: That's the first thing I'm going to do. Is there
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: something I have done to create an environment where a
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: person thinks that it is okay to do these things?
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: That's first.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Why do you go to I?
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Because I'm the one who sets the tone. I just
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: interviewed a chief of station, former chief of station, John Franchi.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: He's former CIA. And He managed a lot of people
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: and a very strong, a lot of strong personalities because
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: you've got officers and all these different people. And he
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: said to me, you know what I learned? He said,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: it is easier to have boundaries and be a little
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: bit more sturdy and more authoritative in the beginning and
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: then pull back than to be everybody's friend and then
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: try to put those boundaries in place. The latter doesn't work.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: He's like, you do the first, you let people know
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: what you expect of them, and then you can pull
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: back a little bit. But you always have to toe
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: that line. So that's what I'm going to say first.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: And he's right. What tone have I set in the
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: environment that I'm working that people think it's okay to
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: do these things? That's one. Now, let's say sometimes I
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: have an outlier. I have a person who does these things.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: As soon as it happens, you have to address it.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: What people do is they don't address things. They let
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: it go. It's small. And then it happens again. It's small.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Then again. And then we become resentful. We become pissed.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: Why does this person keep doing it? Why don't they self-correct? Again,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: it goes back to me. Why haven't I addressed it?
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: People are afraid of conflict. Conflict can be done in
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: a great way. You have to think of conflict as,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: think of it as like I'm competing. I can speak
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: to you, not raise my voice, not make it ugly
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and debate something with you. In the White House, next
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: to the Oval Office was the Cabinet Room. The Cabinet
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Room is where the President would sit with all his heads,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: you know, Secretary of Treasury, Secretary of Homeland Security. And
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: they would discuss and debate policies, laws, and they would compete.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: One person would say, I don't like this idea. This
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: is why. Another person would say, well, this idea doesn't work.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: This is why. You have to be comfortable in doing that.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Most people are not. They don't understand that you can
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: sit somebody down and say, hey, you know, this happened.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? I had someone who
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: worked for me and she had made a mistake on something.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: And so it was a pretty big mistake. So I
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: called her up and I said, hey, you know what?
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: This and this happened. You know, talk me through it.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: And I let her explain. And, you know, she said,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm sorry, this and that. There's a reason why.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: But the one thing I did is that because I
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: wanted to rectify it because I didn't want it to
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: happen again. I was like, is there anything I can
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: do to help make your job better so you can
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: be more successful at what you do? Because I want
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: to hear, is there something I'm doing or not doing
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: that's impacting her decision making? or the way she sees things.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: So it's a twofold. But you also too, when it
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: comes to respect, and this is a whole separate thing
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: you brought up, with the respect part, just make sure
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: people are truly disrespecting you and that's not your ego
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: that feels disrespected. Because sometimes people can't take somebody pushing back.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: And if my goal is to make a great product
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: or business deal or transaction, then everything we do should
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: be in furtherance of that. But what happens is, Stephen,
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: people are so afraid of hurting other people's feelings or
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: stepping on other people's toes. Nobody says something and that's worse.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: It's sometimes difficult to know the difference between whether this
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: is a violation of my boundaries or this is my ego. Because,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: you know, I think of much of the reason why
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: people won't confront something in the moment is because they
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: start double guessing whether they're in the right, they're in
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: the wrong, this is acceptable, this is unacceptable behavior. And
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: that kind of mental debate of, um is that actually
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: acceptable that they treat me like this or that they
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: did this or am I just being triggered because you
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: know of some kind of emotional issue that I have
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: and that kind of conversation often results in them taking
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: no action which means they tolerate that behavior whether they
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: should or shouldn't and then it becomes the norm.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: You know it's interesting so I'm a very um Like
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I'm quick too to jump and like, I don't want
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: to say go into attack mode, but I have it.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: I'm Greek. I grew up in New York and Queens.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: It's like, it's just on. So I always have to,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: my immediate response is like, what? Internally, inside voice. I
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: pause and I'm like, hang on. Is this person telling
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: me something or doing something that I should hear? Right?
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're telling, I made a mistake and they're trying
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: to help me make something better. Or is this person
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: crossing a boundary that I don't want them to cross?
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: So then I will sit that person down or have
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: a conversation. Hey, can you tell me about this? What
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: were you thinking when this happened? Walk me through it.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: But I will tell you, nonjudgmental, right? You don't want
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: to show it. I call it the poker face. Just
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: don't show it and let them talk and just see
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: what they're thinking. Most people, as they're talking to you, Stephen,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: they will on their own realize as they talk through
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: it what they made wrong, what they did wrong. Also,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: you lead by example. So sometimes I'll make a mistake.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I'll miss a deadline with someone I work with. And
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: I'll say, listen, I'm sorry. I was traveling. I own it.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Tell me what I need to do to fix it.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: And what I have found when I do that, the
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: people I work with, when they make a mistake and
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, what happened with this? You know what, Evie?
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I missed the deadline. I own it. I'll
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: fix it. They reflect back what I show them. So
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: I think it also shows in the behavior. And then
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: there's sometimes, Stephen, sometimes you'll bring somebody in that just
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: should not be there. And then you also have to
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: make that hard decision because that one person is It
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: will destroy the fabric of the group. One person can't
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: do that because everybody else around now watches that interaction
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: and they're thinking, well, Steven doesn't care. I was like,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: he's letting this guy do this so I can do this, right?
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: I compare it to like when I teach. So as
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I said, I'm an adjunct professor. I teach college. I
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: teach underground criminal justice. First day of class, when they
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: come in, I tell them no cell phones. I was like,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: and the reason I have you do no cell phones
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: is not because I want you to respect me or
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: this and that. I was like, I owe you an education.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I owe you an education. I know some professors don't care,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: but I tell my students, day one, I give a shit.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: And because I give a shit, I don't want to
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: see the phone in the class. However, I do something else.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: It's an influence strategy. I give them autonomy. I say, however,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: you can leave this classroom anytime you want to check Facebook,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: go on Instagram. I don't care. You have that autonomy.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: But in here, I want you to respect the sanctity
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: of the classroom because you deserve education and I owe
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: it to you. And I set that standard. And side note,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: there's a video clip that I showed day one and
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: you're actually in it. I didn't even know who you were.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: There's a clip of you and some others. It's a
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: montage of videos together talking about social media and how
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: it impacts you adversely and cell phones and cell phone
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: addiction and all that. And I actually play that clip.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: And can I tell you, it resonates with everybody. And
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I have no problems the rest of the semester. But
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: I set that tone. And I tell them, if I
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: see the phone, you're going home. No hard feelings. I'm
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: going to pause class and I'm going to send you home.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: And then if somebody violates it, though, I do it.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Have you had to build up your, how would I
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: describe it? Mental fortitude, ability to be direct, to look
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: someone in the eye. to stand up straight? Have you
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: had to build that up over time? Because there'll be
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: a lot of people who look at you and see
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: strength and they see confidence and they see conviction and
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: they'll wonder, maybe she was just born like that. Or
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: maybe there's something she did along the way that grew that.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: It's a lot of mistakes and a lot of discipline.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: And it's also the people you surround yourself with will
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: set that example, that tone for you. If everybody around
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: me is a mess, or everybody around me when there's
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: a stressful situation, they fall apart and they're chaotic. I'm
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: going to be that. Even to this day, Stephen, I
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: sit and I'm very aware of who I have conversations with,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: whose energy I absorb, whose problems I solve. I have
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: somebody I care about very deeply. They're in a situation
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: with someone, a relationship with someone who is volatile, chaotic.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: They've come to me so many times. I said, you
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: need to let go of this person. I will, I will.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: They don't. But what happens is they keep coming to
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: me I'm having this problem and I put them on point.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I told you what to do. Now you
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: have to sort that out because now what's happening is
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: your stuff is coming into me and I can't have
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: that because I have to keep this steady. So sometimes
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: even with pain in my heart, I'll have to kind
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: of move that person a little bit to the outer
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: part of the circle. Does not mean I don't care
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: or love them, but it means your chaos has to
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: stay there because it's going to bleed into my life.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: You're unsteady. I'm unsteady. But everybody around me, it's like a,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say it's like a calculus problem,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: but it's kind of simple math, man. Look at who's
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: around you. You are them. They are you. And if
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: you don't like what's going on with you, pause and
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: be like, who am I exposed to the most? Sometimes
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: the people we love, they can be very difficult personalities.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: But even with them, you could say, I can manage this.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: I don't want to cut this person out. But what
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: do I do? I just move them to the edge
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: of the circle a little bit more. And you have
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: to make sure your core values, Circle is strong. And
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: that's something you have to constantly reassess because sometimes in
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: our lives, this person is good here. And then maybe two,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: three years later, they're not good anymore. But what we're
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: tied to is that person who we knew back then. Well,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: they're not the same person now. If you have a
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: shit show around you, it's you because you're allowing it
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: to exist. So think about quietly, how can I create
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: these changes and quietly make these changes, quietly make these
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: boundaries because these are boundaries internal for you.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: It's interesting. I remember watching a video of Steve Jobs
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: talk about how he built his career. And he said
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: in that video, he said, I built my career by
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: surrounding myself and finding these truly exceptional people, these A players.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: And the crazy thing is when you find these A players,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: they like working with other A players and it propagates.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: But the opposite is also true, right? If when you
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: build a circle of drama and they'll invite more drama.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: But if you've, I look at my own life and
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I look at my companies and it's almost this crazy
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: sort of process of osmosis. When we have chaos and
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: we have inexperience and we have drama, we end up
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: hiring and inviting more of the same. Whereas when we
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: made those steps to bring in experience, I'm thinking in
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: my early career, experience and maturity and composure and a certain, yeah,
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: a certain psychological maturity, then that's what we ended up
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: bringing more and more in because like-minded people attract like-minded people.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: And even in the context of our own lives, our
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: circle will just, you know, the fifth person will become
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: the sixth person, if that makes sense.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Yes. It's like they rotate out and it's okay. You know,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: what's interesting too, I'm wondering too, because you do this podcast,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: And you really try to, you're warm, you're open, you
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: want people to speak to you. And I wonder if
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: people that work with you outside of the podcast or
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: people that work with you in your business see the
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Steven on the podcast and they think he's so warm,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: he's so open, he's so flexible, and they confuse that Steven.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: with the Steven who does business. And there can be
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: different versions of you, Steven. So you could think of it,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: and I do this all the time, who I am
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: here doesn't mean I'm the same person here. So when
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I show up to work, I bring in maybe a
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: little bit more energy, a little bit more directness. When
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: I hire people, I'll tell people, hey, listen, because I
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: want to be efficient at what I do, sometimes I'll
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: be very direct because I want to just get there.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Don't get your feelings hurt. If at any point there's
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: something you're not sure about, please tell me. But because
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I need to get to there, I may be just
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: be direct. So if you think it's going to be
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: hard for you, I'm not the person. I was like,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: but I will always appreciate you. And I'm always here.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: So I'll sprinkle in every now and then, Hey, I
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: appreciate you. Thank you for this. This is great. That
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: way in the, so there's my warmth so that in
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: those moments when I'm like, Hey, this email you guys wrote,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: this is, we can't send this out. This needs to
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: be redone. And so nobody's hearing a, oh, I'm stupid.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: She thinks I'm done. I did a horrible job. It's like, no,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: the email just sucks. Change it and fix it so
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: we can move on and do better. But think about
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: the versions you bring in because I'll give you an example.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Who I am in the classroom is different than who
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: I am on the podcast, is different who I am
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: when I do the news. There are different versions of
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: me and we have to weigh out those. So if
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: you're going into a business meeting or you're dealing with
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: people who look to you as a supervisor, hmm, a
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: little bit of a different Steven. So they feel, it's
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: not what you say to people, Steven, it's how they
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: feel around you. And if they feel like he's not
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: taking any of this, they're going to know it. It's
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: the essence of who we are. It's our ethos is
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: the Greek word, your way of being. We show people
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: in the context of whatever environment we're in, the version
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: that we want them to see so that we can
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: get the results that we want.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: You spend much of your time around great leaders. If
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: I think about, you know, you were working for about
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: almost 12 years around people like Bill Clinton and Barack
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Obama and Michelle Obama. Did you learn anything about leadership
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: from those individuals, from observing them and seeing how they
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: conducted themselves and how they communicated? You know, in the UK,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: we see someone like Barack Obama is a really incredible
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: leader for many reasons, but I think one of the
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: real standout reasons is his ability to communicate in a
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: certain way, which galvanizes people. And we haven't really seen,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, one could actually argue that Trump has his
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: own masterful communication skills. It's very different, but it seems
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: to work. You know, did you learn anything from being
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: around these presidents about leadership and communication?
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: You learn, you learn something from all of them to
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: be president of the United States, whoever you are. I mean,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: that's a feat in of itself. So they're all, they
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: all have something. So, It's interesting. The one thing I
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: learned is resilience. You'll be next to the president, and
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: this was every president, a former, all of them I
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: stood next to, and you're standing next to them, and
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: they're about to go on stage or in a big meeting,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: or they're talking to someone, and you've got the news on,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: and there's some political pundit on the news or channel
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: talking about how stupid they are. He's a dummy. He's this.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: He's that. They're shredding them. And he... looks at it, yeah,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: gets his stuff together, gets his speech together, gets on
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: stage and delivers. When the majority of the public would
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: sit there, oh my God, I'm disrespected, I'm this, how
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: can they say that?
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Nothing.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: That was amazing to me. So not only did the U.S.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Secret Service make me resilient, but to see somebody just
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: take such heat or hear such horrible things said about
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: them on a consistent basis on such public platforms, And
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: you have the ability to wake up, walk outside the
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: White House, your head up, get in your limo, go
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: on stage, go do this press conference. And you're like,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: it's just going to happen. There's no school for that.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: And so because I was around these personalities, I'm like, yeah, well,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: if he can do it, I can do it.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Who was the most impressive?
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I have to tell you, they all were. There was
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: no one that wasn't. Like they all had their gifts.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: You know, and even Trump, you brought up Trump before.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I think what people like about him, he's just direct.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: He's very direct and he just lands it. He does
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: what he says and he doesn't care. There's something, and
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: I'm Switzerland, because in the U.S. Secret Service, we actually
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: weren't even allowed to talk about if we voted for someone.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: We were very apolitical and I've always stayed that way.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: But from an objective standpoint, people just like the fact
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: that he just says it and he doesn't care. And
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: sometimes I think people envy that.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Did you see how they made their decisions? Did you
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: ever observe them making tough decisions?
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, all the time. You'd be behind closed door meetings,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: you would hear their ability.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Give me an example of this. I'm interested, you know,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: when the stakes are that high, because a lot of
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: us on a day-to-day basis are making fairly inconsequential decisions,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: especially in the context of running the most powerful nation
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: in the world. So I'm interested when the stakes are
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: that high, when you've got to get Osama bin Laden
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: in a compound in Pakistan or You know, there's a
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: terrorist attack. How these individuals make decisions.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: They're not driven by emotion. They're very rational based decisions.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I weigh the pros. I weigh the cons. I look
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: at the facts. So you very rarely, if ever, and
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: I could probably say I've never heard a U.S. president
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: yell ever. I've never heard a U.S. president lose his himself.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: You know, when you hear them debate or talk about things,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: it's a debate. I can look at you. You can
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: look at me. I'd be like, Stephen, I don't think
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: that this is right. And then you'd say, Evie, well,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: why isn't this right? If we do it this way,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: this way, this way, this is going to happen. Yeah,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: but Stephen, if you do it like that, then what
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: if this happens and these guys die? Well, I don't
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: see it like that. Well, sir, I see it this way.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: It's like, we're going to have to figure it out.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: But you're also with people who have the ability to
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: sit and withstand. Their feelings are not so fragile, their
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: ego not so soft that you can actually have this debate.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: And that's important for you to have in your circle.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Can you have these debates with people? I would call
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: them competing. There's two great researchers in the UK, Dr.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Lawrence and Emily Allison, and they archetype people as animals.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: And one of the things they talk about is someone
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: who's in control and setting the agenda is someone who's lying.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: I'm a lion. And so sometimes we have to bring
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: a little bit more line in with us. Or somebody
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: who's competing is somebody who's capable of kind of debating
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: with you, but It doesn't have to be ugly. I
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: don't have to raise my voice or get in your
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: face to break something down. I can sit there and
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: be rational. The problem the majority of people have is
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: they're so invested and emotional, they bring their feelings hurt,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: their feelings into it. Even something, you just brought up
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Trump and he had like a little bit of a
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: look like Trump because everyone's so emotional when they hear
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: that name. Pull back and be objective. It's like, let
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: me look at this from a factual standpoint. I'm going
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: to lay this out. I'm going to lay this out
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: and let this lay out. When you can make decisions
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: based on facts and rationality, the emotions go out the window.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: You don't want to be an emotional decision maker. It
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: never goes well because you're not thinking clearly. You're like
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: just going with the wave. And it's those moments when
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: you say something you shouldn't say, then afterward you regret it.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Why did that person get me to say that? I
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: went in with this intention. I kind of got pulled
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: in this direction. This person got me to say that. No,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: it's always on you because you're the governor of you.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: The first time you got exposed to a president and
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: you spent time around a president, were there any things
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: that surprised you? Any things that before then you had
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: sort of ideas of what they were like and how
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: they behaved that you realized suddenly were like popular misconceptions
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: that most people believe about presidents and so on?
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a misconception, but my
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: first time, they call it standing post. It was for
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: President George W. Bush. He's in office. I'm standing post
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: for him somewhere.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: What does that mean?
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, standing post is when you're new, you don't get
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: into like the close, close circle of the president. It's, Evie,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: here's the door. And the president's going to walk through
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: this door in like eight hours from now. We're going
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: to sweep it, check for bombs and everything. And your
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: job is to stand, watch this door for eight hours.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Nobody comes through, right? That's it. That's called post-standing. You
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: secure the perimeter. It's mundane, right? But you do it.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: It's part of the job, especially when you start. So
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: I have my, one of my first post-standing things. I'm
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: standing by the door. And the head agent, senior agents
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: coming around, checking on us. Hey, you okay? You okay?
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: You need anything? It's briefing us. And the one agent
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: comes and he's like, you knew, right? I'm like, yeah, well,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: I'm sure I knew. I mean, I had started under Clinton,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: but Bush was my real, I don't know what, but
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: my real hardcore assignment. And he's like, where's your phone?
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: I said, it's here, sir. He's like, is that thing
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: off or on silent? I said, yeah. He's like, don't
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: let Bush hear your phone go off. And I'm like,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: what do you mean? He's like, if he hears your
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: phone go off, you're going home. He's like, he doesn't
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: want to hear phones. We want like a respectable environment,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: a quiet environment. That thing goes off, you're gone. He
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: sends people home. And I was like, what? Why would
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: he get so upset with the phone? I didn't quite
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: understand it. Now I understand it. Because if everybody's doing
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: this and distracted, nobody's focused, there's things going on. It's
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: the energy, the vibration. He was trying to be a
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: leader and set boundaries for the environment he wanted. Everybody present,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: everybody's focused. Nobody's on their phones, no shenanigans. That really
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: stuck with me. And you better make sure I took
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: that thing out, put it all the way down. I
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: was like, the president of the United States is not
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: sending me home. And they're like, he does it. So
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: that's something like I always remembered. And it's a boundary.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: And it's just something he imposed throughout the environment. I
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: remember thinking, wow, the president of the United States actually
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: sits in, I don't want to say control something so minute,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: but something so small can impact or create this ripple
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: effect of the environment that he is trying to cultivate.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Why did you get that job? Because when I was
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: reading through the numbers around how many people sort of
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: apply to do the initial training and then how many
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: people ultimately get to be that close to these major issues,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: it seems like very few people get there. Could you
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: quantify that for me? How many people dropped out during training?
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: How many people passed? And how many people, how rare
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: is it to get to the position that you got to?
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: So they spend like tens of thousands of dollars, maybe
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: even 100K by the time you get hired on you.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: So to understand how they select you, once you get selected,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: you've gone through a rigorous process. So for example, I
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: started in the NYPD. When I went in, it was 1,500
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: of us and people would just quit left and right
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: and they wanted you to quit. When I went to
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: the U.S. Secret Service Academy- At that point, it was
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: like 54 of us, but you were hand selected. So
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: when you apply, and I think they only take 1%
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: of all applications that they get, which is like, it's
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: easier to get into Harvard than it isn't to get
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: into the service. So out of all the applications, they only,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: you only select 1% to even look at then. They decide, okay,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: I'm going to put this person through the process. Then
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: they make you fill in all this paperwork, Stephen. I
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: can't even tell you the amount of weeks it took me.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Write essays. How are you going to handle problems? Hey,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: they'll give you problem scenarios and they'll say, you have
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: this problem. How would you handle this? And they'll give
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: you like, you've been here. What would you do here?
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: And they have you write out essays and break down
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: what you would do. Then your paperwork. So they take
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: your paperwork. They go through all that stuff. Then they
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: do background checks on you, criminal checks, background checks. They
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: talk to all your neighbors. When I was in the US,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: when I was applying, I had studied overseas when I
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: was in college. And one of the semesters I did
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: abroad was in Italy. They sent an agent to Italy
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: to speak to my college professor in Rome to ask
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: him what kind of student I was. So they do
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: such an invasive look into you. You do a polygraph,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: you take a written test. It's called the TEA exam.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: I think they've changed it, but it was like In
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: the US, it's like they call it the SATs. It
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: was the SATs on steroids. That thing was so hard.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: I thought for sure I failed it. I was like,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: there's no way I passed this thing. I squeaked through that.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: And there's all these things. So by the time you
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: get offered, they give you, it's a conditional offer of employment. Evie,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: you've passed everything. So we're going to let you try
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: to go to training. And then if you pass that,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: then you go on probation for like, I think it's
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: three years. And then you're good. Then you're truly in.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: But the time you get to this process where you're
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: actually going through training because they've dumped so much money
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: in you, you're at that point where you're typically going
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: to get through it because they don't want you to
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: quit because they've dropped a lot of money on you.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: So at that point, they've really invested in you because
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: they believe that you can meet the standards. and be
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: part of a culture that they want. So it is hard,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: but they do kick people out. It happens all the time.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: What is it about you then? If you reflect in
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: hindsight now and go, the reason I got through all
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: of that is because I am.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: I didn't know any better. I didn't know any better
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: not to apply. I didn't know any better to know
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: that it's 98% men. I didn't know any better to
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: think that I couldn't do it. My naiveness as a
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: young woman or girl That's what helped me get to
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: that job. I didn't think about it. I was like,
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: why not?
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: What were they looking for?
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: They look for a lot of different things. I will
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: tell you unequivocally, they look for trustworthiness. If you lie
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: on your stuff and they catch you, which later on
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: I became one of their polygraph examiners and my job became,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: I became the person to see if you were trustworthy,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: if you had lied to us. I was like the
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: last layer of defense. That was a big thing. Integrity
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: is a big thing because their mindset was if you
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: can lie about your application form, or something that happened
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: to you when you're 19, 20, or something dumb you did,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: then you're going to lie to us about anything. Because
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: it's like, if you can't own up to your stuff,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: you're going to make mistakes here and we can't trust you.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: So integrity is a massive thing. The other thing that
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: really like, they call it BQAs, but better qualified applicants.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: That's what you get when they don't want you like, hey,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: we have better qualified applicants that competitive wise. Drugs is
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: a big thing. people using, like, so drugs played a
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: big role when people had a lot of usage that
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: would be, or when I got on, it was like
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: barely nothing. That would be a quick thing to get
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: you disqualified because obviously we work crime, criminal cases. So
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: if I'm working a counterfeit case, criminals don't really stay
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: in one lane. They do counterfeit money and they do
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: drugs and they do other things. So they have to
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: know that you can work these cases and they don't
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: have to worry about you.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: You said you were working in as an interrogator. I
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: read that you traveled the world for roughly about eight
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: years for the secret service doing polygraph tests and conducting
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: interrogations as a polygraph examiner. You're trying to figure out
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: if people are lying. You've got a machine in front
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: of you, right? That's telling you, giving you a bunch
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: of readings and data on what's going on physiologically inside
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: their body. But then also, you know, in interrogations, but
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: as a polygraph examiner, you're looking at them and you
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: must have a bit of a sort of hunch based
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: on like pattern recognition. when you're looking at their body
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: and how they're behaving, do you think you can predict
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: or do you think you can now tell if someone's
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: lying to you or if they're being dishonest?
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: It happens a lot. When you speak to people, you can,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: I guess you can look at it this way. You
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: can figure out who's full of BS and who isn't.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: How?
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: One, you feel it. I think your intuition is a
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: huge thing and we dismiss it. Two, people show you,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: you create baselines on people. So if I sit and
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: I speak to someone and the whole time they're speaking,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Like when you talk, Stephen, most of your hands are
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: usually here. You'll go on the iPad, you do this.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: That's your baseline, right? You do a lock eye contact.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: I've got Stephen, right? Now, let's say I ask you
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: later a question and maybe it's a question you don't like, right?
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: I ask you, like, tell me about your employees at
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: work or tell me about the most difficult employee you
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: had and how did you deal with it? And it's
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: something maybe that affects you. You don't want to talk
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: about it. You don't want to be honest with me.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: You might be like, oh, you know, Evie. And you
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: look down. I'm like, well, you know, I'll see a shift.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: This whole time I'm talking to Stephen, he's locked in
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: with me. He's got a certain posture. I ask him
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: this question. He just showed me something different. Why? That's it. Why?
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: And then now I know to be curious that when
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: you're done asking or answering my question, I come in
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: with good follow-up questions because you're showing me something is
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: happening here. What most people don't do, Stephen, is they
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: see something. It registers. And they let it go. They
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: don't follow up with another question and then another question
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: and then another question. You don't want to be nosy,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: but you want to be curious.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Who's the greatest liar you ever met? Can you recall
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: an instance of meeting someone who was just a really
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: great liar?
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: I had this one guy. He was doing, it wasn't
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: a big scam, but he was doing ATM fraud. So
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: you know how you go to the ATMs and you
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: You put in your card, you take out money. So
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: he was going onto the ATMs and he would put
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: on a skimming device. This is a very, I don't
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: want to put a very primitive way to steal money.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: So he would put on his own skimmer on the ATM.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: So when you swipe your card, you're swiping it on
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: his skimmer. So it captures all the info. So this
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: guy was just kind of like very low level, basic criminal.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: He's going around to all the ATMs in Brooklyn and
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: he's doing this skimming device. So on the ATMs, they
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: take photos of you. So I've got a photo of
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: this guy. I've got him and he's got his hat on.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: I think it was like a New York Knicks hat
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: at the time. He's got his hat on. I've got
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: his full frontal. We found the guy. We matched the
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: prints to the prints on the ATM. Boom. I've got
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: my guy. I got my photo. This is easy day.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: I put him in the interview room. I sit him down. Hey,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: you know, I want to talk to you about this. First,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: I do like a rapport building. What's your name? Where
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: are you from? Talk to me. Super nice. Super nice guy. Yes, ma'am. Okay, ma'am.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: You know, and he was from another country. I remember
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: So we're talking, he's looking to me. Yes. And he's very, very, um,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: wants to help me. Yes. I want to help you.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: And I'm so, you know, yes, of course, like very cooperative,
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: overly cooperative. So that's my red flag. I'm like, this
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: guy's trying too hard. And, uh, sir, I want to
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: ask you about this ATM scam. Oh no, I don't
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: know anything. I don't know anything. I'm like, no, how
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: about here? And I just start revealing a couple of
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: things and I've got my photo in my background. I'm like,
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: I'm going to bust out this photo. This guy's going
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: to be like, yup, that's me. Sorry. So as I'm
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: doing this, I'm hitting a wall. No, no, no. I'm sorry, mom.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: I wish I could help you. No, no, no. So
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: I got the photo of the guy. Do you know
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: he showed up to my interview wearing the same hat?
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, I'm locked. I'm tight. Pull out the
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: photo and I'm like, oh yeah? Then what's this? Put
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: it down on the table. He looks at it. Oh, yeah,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: that's me. It looks like me, but yeah, wow, I
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: can see. No, it's not me. It was him. He
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: mean nothing. Nothing. I will never forget him. Just a
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: great liar. Most people waver, this and that. Not this guy.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: He was locked tight. He stuck to that story. Never
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: gave a confession. Thankfully, we had enough to charge him.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: It was ATM fraud, but nothing. looked at me, I'm sorry.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things people would do,
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean people are always lying when they do this,
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: but one of the things I would see a lot
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: of guilty people do, and he did this a lot,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: I swear to God, I swear to God, God is
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: my witness. God knows that's not me. And so we
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: would call it divine intervention. Whenever you'd hear somebody do that,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: you knew it's like, okay, there's a problem. Because it's
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: kind of like you're saying, why do you need God
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: to come in to vouch for you? Or sometimes we
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: actually have people come in with Bibles and Or rosary beads.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Whenever you saw that in the waiting room, that person
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: coming in, I was like, they'd be like, don't even
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: poly them. They did it. Because they're trying so hard
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: to connect to that. I'm a religious person. I would
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: never do these things. And those were little red flags.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: Of course, I would do my interview. But in my
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: back of my head, I'm like, he probably did it.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: What about other things? Like you're very good at keeping
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: eye contact.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Is there such a thing as too much eye contact?
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: It depends on the person, but I think you also
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: need to be you. So I make eye contact. Here's
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: the other thing. When I make eye contact with you,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: I show you, one, I'm confident in myself. I also
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: show you I deserve to make eye contact with you,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: that I am relevant and I don't need to look
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: away or hide because I deserve to be here and
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: I deserve to be having a conversation with you, right,
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: and that I matter. That's one thing. And I also
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: convey authority and confidence. You don't have to say anything
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: to people. You show them. I look at you. I'm
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: comfortable to look at you. But I can also show
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: you warmth, right? I can connect with you and engage
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: with you and be present and listen to you. The
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: other thing eye contact does, it also sends the message
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: to you that you matter to me. That I'm here
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: and that I am present with you and that I'm
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: listening to you. That I see you and that I
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: want to try to understand you. So eye contact is
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: wonderful because it does two things. It makes you feel
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: relevant and it makes me relevant also. That I'm relevant
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: enough to sit here and look at you when I speak.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: And it's another way to convey my authority without having
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: to tell you, hey, you know what? I'm in charge.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: I don't need to tell you. I show you.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: What about body language? Because I'm thinking about people that
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: I know that are particularly low in self-esteem and they
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: struggle with eye contact, but then also sometimes... it's almost
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: like they make themselves smaller in their body language and
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. And I was just thinking like, I
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: guess what I'm thinking here is can I trick myself?
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Can I trick myself and other people into thinking I'm
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: confident if I'm not? Is, you know, because there's all
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: this stuff about like the Superman posture where you can
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: kind of make yourself bigger and look in people's eyes.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: But when I reflect on my early years, when I
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: was least confident, for some reason, I couldn't get anyone
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: I was pursuing. So I remember there was these five
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: girls that I, over the course of about, since I
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: was from 14 to I'd say 23, that I was
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: really into. All five of them weren't interested in me.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: That we would like, we'd get a little bit far
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: down the line. So there was like a little bit
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: of sort of initial interest, but then I would always
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: lose them. And I never knew why. I never knew why,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: but then it changed at about 24 and it doesn't
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: correlate to like money or success necessarily. It correlates to
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: my opinion of myself. And it was almost like magic.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: When I looked back and I thought, fucking hell, like
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: I got rejected over and over and over again. And
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: when I got to the point that I actually believed
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: that I was good enough, even though I read all
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: the books, I read up all the pickup artistry books,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: I read the game, I read all of these books.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: I had the tips, tactics, and tricks to fake it.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: But it wasn't until I genuinely believed that I was
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: high value, that I had real success with the opposite sex.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: And so it left me with this feeling that you
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: can read all the tips, the tricks, the eye contact,
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: the body language, but maybe none of it works because
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: there's a thousand other nonverbal micro expressions that are communicating
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: your low value. You don't believe in yourself. You're not worthy.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: That overpower that, that we can't really control. And the
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: reason it changed at 24, 25, 26, 27 is because
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: I genuinely felt like I was good enough for them. Like, so,
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: you know, this is why I reflect on this idea
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: of like, I know people would click podcasts like this
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: because they want the the tips, the tricks. They want
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: to get from A to Z in three seconds.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: No.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: They want to get from low confident, low self-esteem, all that,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: to at the altar with a king. And they want
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: to do it. They want to know how to do
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: it in the space of this conversation so that they
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: can end this conversation and walk down the aisle tomorrow
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: with their Prince Charming. That's what people want. They want
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: to solve complex things with short, simple solutions.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: Doesn't exist.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: I know this because I know that if I titled this,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: like if you title a podcast, Six Pack Abs in
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Seven Minutes, people are going to go blah, blah, blah.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: But if you titled it Six Pack Abs in Three
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Years of Work and Diet Restriction, fucking no one's going
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: to click. You know, and it's the same thing for
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: here and I'm often wondering, like how does someone change
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: the core of themselves, whether it's as a leader, a manager,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: in a relationship, that very core of you. Because in
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: my life, it was actually just this like long grueling
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: process of building myself. It was like retiring from caring
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: so much about actually getting any of these people and
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: just building up this real internal fortress. And then everything
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: else took care, the body language, the eye contact, the
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: way I walk into a room, it all took care
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: of itself. And you know, but it doesn't sell books that.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: Like there's no one's going to buy that book.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: You know what though? It is all the little things
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: we do that help us get there. There's no magic thing.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: That's why you're like, it took me time. And what
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: it was, it was all the little things along the
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: lines that came. There's no magic thing. People sometimes come
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: to me and they're like, I mean, what's the secret?
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: And I tell them, there's no secret. The change that
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: you want in your life, it's all the little things
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: that you do. It's like, think of it like compound interest, right?
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: I do this, and then I add this layer, and
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: then this layer, and then this layer, and then this layer.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: It's like the sheets of paper. You put one sheet,
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: it's light. Two sheets are light. Three sheets. But you
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: put a thousand sheets, now you've got weight. That's how
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: we are. We're layers, and we have to add to
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: those layers. There's no quick thing. You know when you
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: know you're going to get there? When you're sovereign. When
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: you feel like, I don't need anybody. It's wonderful to
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: have human beings around me, and I think connection, it's wonderful.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: But if your goal is I need someone to complete me,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: you're done. And I think also, it's so wild because
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about my youth as you're talking about yours.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: When I became sovereign, where I'm like, I'm good enough.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: I'm good as I am.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: You become a magnet.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: I became a magnet. People are like, well, I wanted that.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: I want to be around that. I want to be
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: around her. Everywhere. People are like, how do you? It's like,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: because I believe in me. But it took time to
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: believe in me.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: And when you became sovereign- Yes.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Everyone's just like.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: But how did your behavior change? Those micro behaviors?
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: I stopped chasing things and chasing people.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: I stopped looking for approval. I stopped trying to people please. Right.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: And I just, I trusted myself. I also stopped taking
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: inventory from everybody, asking everybody their opinion. And I also though,
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: but I also had, I dealt with a lot of rejection,
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of like rejection, a lot of people not
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: agreeing with me. I gossiped growing up. There was a lot,
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: I took a lot of heavy hits and those things
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: made me resilient. those things taught me to like, not,
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: you know, to stay my course. Like, you know, and
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: I've shared this before, but when I became an agent,
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: I put in front of YPD, the community of friends
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: and people I had around me, they thought it was ridiculous.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: They thought it was silly. I remember after, when I
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: started dating, after I became an agent, there was one guy,
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: a friend of mine's, a good friend of mine's brother.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: She was trying to hook me up with him. This
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: was before my husband. My husband knows everything. And, uh,
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: So I'm like, all right. You know, he was a
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: nice Greek guy. I'm Greek. I'm keeping it in the
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: community because you're supposed to. So I'm talking to him
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah. And I'm thinking like I went
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: through so much to become a special agent with the U.S.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: Secret Service. And do you know what he said to me?
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: He's like, so like when you get married, are you
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: going to quit that job and, you know, ditch this?
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, like how long are you going to do this?
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: Like he spoke about it like it was nothing, like
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: it was trivial. And I heard that and I was
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: just like, wait, what? It's like, dude. you couldn't get
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: into the Secret Service if like, like with your like
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: there's no like with all your might and when he
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: was like said that to me and his job he
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: owned a diner and he owned a diner food his
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: success was wealth and money and some cultures including mine
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: and the community I was in they they measured success
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: with money like what I was doing was not successful
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: But I had the ability to be sovereign enough to
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: like not listen. I was just like, no, that's not
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: my belief system, my moral compass. And I stopped caring.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Then I dated another guy who knew I was in
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: the Secret Service. I really liked this guy. I was
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: his Italian kid. And I'm thinking he's going to be
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: so proud of me. I got in and we went
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: on this date and he had just broken up with someone. Steven,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: like he was so uncomfortable around me.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: Because I was an agent. I was like a freak show.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: It was weird. I think today's a little different maybe
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: at that time.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: Do you think men struggle with strong women?
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: I think certain men do. I think men who are
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: not confident in themselves, if you're steady, you don't care
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: what somebody else is. You're cheering for them. I ended
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: up dating an agent and marrying him. So because my
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: husband's so steady and sovereign in himself, I could do whatever.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: And he'd be like, you go.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: You had your first child at 45 years old.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: I had my daughter at 40, excuse me, 46. My
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: daughter's 18 months old.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: Your daughter gets to 18. Yeah. And she's, she just
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: can't get out of bed. She's lazy. She's blaming the world.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: She's saying, listen, this is this person's fault and this
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: person's fault. And, you know, I just can't be bothered.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: Where do you start?
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: Well, look, if I've done a good job on my husband,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: I have done a good job. And again, it's not
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: 100% us. We should have hopefully by that point put
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: in certain structures in place to prevent that. I'll give
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: you a small example. I've never put an iPhone in
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: front of her. I have no working television in my
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: house because I control what she absorbs, not the internet.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to hold on to that as long
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: as possible because I've seen with the cell phones, I'm
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: a grown-ass adult and I'll look at stuff and it
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: impacts me and I'm like, I can't look at this.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: Or I'll unfollow things or I'll go off social. I
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: don't want to see it. I cover news. I cover crime. Child,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: I cover really heinous things. And there are times where
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: I do the news. I do the news. Steven, I
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: don't watch it. So there are little things that I
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: can do. So up until this point, 18 months, it's
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: a lot more work for me and my family. There's
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: no social device. There's no cell phone. I control that.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: I kind of look at it. I want to know
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: what's feeding her mind. The way I choose to make
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: her food, I choose what goes in the mind. I
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: control it. And a lot of parents will come to
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: me and I'll tell them, if you're not comfortable dropping
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: your kid in the middle of Times Square to talk
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: to whoever, then you get that thing out of their
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: hands because now somebody else is putting ideas in your
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: kid's head. I have no control over that. Zero. And
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: that's powerful. That's one. And especially we see it affect
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: little girls. And again, I'm a grown woman and social
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: media impacts me. And the moment I'm like, eh, I
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: put that thing away. That's one. No TV in my
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: house because TV is like when I was a kid,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: You had cartoons Saturday morning, that was it. And you
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: had to wait for those cartoons. I mean, I was like,
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: tomorrow cartoons. So this instant gratification process that kids have,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: that's why you hear like, help me get to here fast.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: She's never gonna learn how to work hard. She's gonna
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: be lazy. She's gonna lay in bed. She's gonna get
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: depressed quicker. She's gonna have anxiety. So I'm doing everything
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: I can to impact those things. They're little seeds, it's
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: little things. So that by the time she's 18, I
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: hope in my heart I have done my best. But
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: I also understand I'm 50%. She's 50%. So as much
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: as I try to help navigate her, she's going to
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: be her own person. And I'm going to have to listen,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: understand what her value systems are, what she cares about.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: But her exposure to them, I regulate that. Even the
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: school she's going to go to. I sit there. I'm
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: already thinking about where I'm going to put her to school.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, do I want her in a public school?
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't want her being like, mom,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: I want a Gucci belt and, you know, labels and
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: all this stuff. I was like, I don't want her
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: to think like that. I want her to have a
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: different mindset. I'm like, so I'm creating in my head,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: how do I do that? Another thing I do, super small,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: I take her to Greece with me every summer. Do
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: you know where we go in Greece? In the village. Village.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: I'm talking like bathroom in the back, hardcore, like rugging it.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: My parents grew up in villages. I grew up in that.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: I lived in that in the summer. June, July, August, September,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: I was in the village. In fact, the bathroom was
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: connected to the chicken coop.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: Would you let her fly business class?
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: No. The only time I fly business class is when
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: somebody else is paying.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: Because I'm saving my money. Because business class is expensive.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Because I work really hard and I'm okay to sit
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: in the back. So business class... There has to be
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: a really good reason why I'm going to dish out
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: that money for business class for myself, let alone my daughter. Economy. Economy?
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: My poor kid, right? She's going to grow up. I'm like,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: you can keep all your stuff to yourself.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: One of the things we were chatting about before we
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: started recording was that your favorite days are when you
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: work out, you go to the gym. Why is that
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: so important to you? Why is exercise so central to
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: everything that you do in your mind?
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: I think that there's a school of like the mind
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: and the body are two separate things. And a lot
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: of people will be like, I'm working on my mind.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: I listen to podcasts, which is great. But then they
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: don't work out their body. And these things live together.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: I learned this in the Secret Service. Like these things were,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: they're married. So if you're depressed and you're not getting
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: off the sofa, there's a problem. Your body needs help.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: I work with, I train now with Don Saladino, even
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: me with all my experience. Like sometimes we need somebody
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: to push us and accountability is a big thing. So
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: I always tell people, if you're struggling, have somebody be
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: accountable for you. Don, who I work with and I
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: train with, he makes me take a photo of every
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: meal I eat and text it to him. He's like,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: I want to see what you're putting in your mouth.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: And every time I'm about to have something that I shouldn't,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: I think to myself, I got to send this to Don.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: So He's going to police it. So having somebody help
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: you is also a good thing. But your body is
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: your temple. You get one of these. We take better
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: care of our cars than we do this. And then
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: we wonder, why am I depressed? Because you have to
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: move this. You have to take care of it. Everything
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: in the US Secret Service was about performance. This is
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: your home. It houses your mind. It houses your soul.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: And we treat it like garbage. And we give it garbage.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: When I run... And I work out at night. All
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: the stress, I'm like any other human being. I accumulate stress,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: people's angst, stuff coming at me. And I need a
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: way to release it. So at night, I go run
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: and I let it out. There's been times in my life,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: I can think of two distinct times. I remember once,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: and I don't remember what it was, but I had
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: such a stressful, hard day. Steven and I went to
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: the track to run. I remember it was freezing. It
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: was winter. It was snowing. And I was just like,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: I was just like on the verge of just like,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: just pure emotion and rage. I started running. I was
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: like talking to myself. I was running. I'm bawling. My
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: eyes are bawling, bawling. I look like a crazy person
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: to the outside world, but I ran it all out.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: And when I was done, I was back to me.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: The physical element of our body is such an important
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: thing and we treat them as two separate entities and
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: you have to take care of what houses your soul
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: and your mind.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: You strike me as someone that is pretty fearless. I
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: say pretty because I think we all have fear in us.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: I think fear is a useful natural emotion, but you're
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: someone that clearly has built up a more productive relationship
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: with fear than most people. When you think back of
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: your sort of Secret Service experience, was there a day
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: where you were more scared than another day?
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: I.e.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: What was the most scared you were during your time
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: in the Secret Service?
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: You know, I had this one scenario, and I don't
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: think I ever talked about it. I'm in downtown Manhattan.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: I'm with my colleague, and we're driving to a Secret
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: Service meeting. We were going to go arrest somebody the
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: next day, and we were going to the briefing with
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: this other department. We were going to do our pre-arrest
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: briefing about how we're going to go in tactically. So
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: we're driving to this meeting, and as we're going to
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: this meeting, we're in downtown Manhattan. somebody runs out of a,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: it was a jewelry store. This man runs out of
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: a jewelry store and these other people are out there
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: running with him and they're yelling and they see us.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: And I guess they realized that we were in a
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: police car, even though it was undercover, they just stand out.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: They're like, help, help, get him, get him. And the
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: way they were acting, you'd think he would have shot,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: somebody shot somebody. And we can see, as you see
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: them screaming and yelling, help, help. You see this other
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: person running away. So my partner flips on the lights
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: and We start driving, and we're chasing this person. Now,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: I can't see this person. I see their back. They
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: have a hoodie on. They're running. From the posture of it,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: it looked like a male, and it looked like a
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: guy running. So he's running. Lights on. We get on
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: the thing. Stop running. Stop running. He's not listening to anything.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: He goes. He turns to black. We're still chasing him.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: Then he turns into a parking garage. In New York City,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: there's these parking garages, and they go all the way underground.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: So he turns in. So we can't go in with
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: the car. We're going in blind. We pull up, we
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: get ourselves out, and as we're going in, we're clearing
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: people out. But you could also see people running out.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: I guess they could tell something was wrong. People are leaving.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: And now we're thinking, does this guy have a gun? Like,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: what's going on? Because people are responding very agitatedly to
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: the scenario. We go in. We pull everybody out. Everybody
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: get out. Get out. So we go to the bottom
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: level of the parking garage where we believe he's at.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: lights are, it's dark. And we go in, police come out,
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: police come out. He's not listening. We're looking for him
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: underneath all these cars. And then I see him. He's
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: underneath the car. And I go to my partner. I
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: sing it to my partner. Cause he's like on the
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: other side. I'm like, Hey, I'm like, he's right down.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: He's right there. Now we can't see him. My partner's like,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go around. So my partner goes around
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: and he didn't listen to me, my partner. So I
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: blame him a little bit. He went too prematurely before
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: we kind of figured out what what, he goes to
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: go grab him from behind. So now my partner's out
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: in the open. This guy's out there. I see him.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know if he has a weapon. We have
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: enough to believe. He ran from us, right? So all
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: these things are escalating. Let me see your hands. Let
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: me see your hands. Nothing. Let me see your hands.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: Put your hands out. I can see you. I see
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: you under the car. Let me see your hands because
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: now I'm worried he's going to shoot my partner because
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: my partner's out in the open trying to get to him.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: Let me see your hands. So then I pull my
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: gun out. And I pointed at him. Let me see
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: your hands. Let me see your hands. And I'm thinking,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: please show your hands because now I'm in this cross
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: between if this guy have a gun and if he
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: has a gun, any second he's going to kill my partner.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: And I had a choice where I was like, do I,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: do you shoot? Because I think he's going to shoot
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: my partner because he's not showing me his hands and
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: he's fidgeting. Do I not shoot? Give him the benefit
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: of the doubt. And then he does shoot my partner.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: And now I'm responsible for the death of my partner.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: Or if he doesn't have a gun, Am I responsible
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: because now I just shot him and he didn't have
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: a gun? And you're doing this thing in your head
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: and there's no way to win. And it's happening in seconds.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: I couldn't see his hands. I chose not to shoot.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: I'm praying that he doesn't shoot my partner. He has
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: no gun. He's not showing his hands. And then I'm like,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: I'm going to shoot you. Please show your hands, show
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: your hands. And then my partner goes from behind. And
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: then the guy's like, fine, fine. He's like, put your
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: gun away. He's screaming. He puts his hands out. My
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: partner pulls him up from the back and we get him.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: Then we come around. I'm pissed. I'm so pissed. We
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: sit him down. We cuff him. I pull his hoodie out.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: 16-year-old kid. I search his pockets. You know what he did?
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: He stole one of those big gold crosses. That is
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: all he did. Because I pulled out his ID. I
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: checked his ID. I was like, do you know I
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: almost shot you for this? Do you know we chased
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: you down for this? You almost died for this stupid cross.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: So we call the cops, they come. That stayed with
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: me because I almost killed an innocent person for what?
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: For nothing. That was probably very powerful. I was afraid.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: I've been in scenarios where the death was on my
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: receiving end and I was okay with that, but I
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: wasn't okay with this because I thought there was a
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: split second where I was deciding, do I shoot him
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: because he's not following my instructions? I cannot see his hand.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: My partner's out there. He could kill my partner. I
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: don't know if he has a gun. I had all
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: these escalating reasons to think that, and I chose not
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: to shoot.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: What is your mental health like generally and throughout your career?
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: Because people talk about mental health, they talk about anxiety,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: you know, depression, low moods and stuff. Have you ever
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: experienced what people describe as mental health disorders?
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: I don't... This is terrible. I don't think so. I think...
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think. I mean, like any human being,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: I go through moments... but I don't let myself live there.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: I guess I always feel like I'm the governor. I
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: will say this. It is okay to be depressed. It
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: is okay to have anxiety. It is okay to feel bad.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: I think maybe that's the issue because we're in a
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: space where, oh, you're depressed. There's something wrong with you.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: You have anxiety. Whoa. I had anxiety every day when
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: I went to training. I always had anxiety. When I
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: put my vest on and I was protecting the president,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: I would carry my MP5, which is like this weapon
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: that basically like could, It's going to automatic. You could
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: cause serious damage. Like I had anxiety. I'm like, man,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: is today the day? Those are okay things to have.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: So I feel like maybe we should change the narrative
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: and normalize feeling bad. Instead of making people feel like
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: you're sad, take this pill. You have anxiety. Something's wrong
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: with that. Why is that bad? Why do I have
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: to be like every ridiculous commercial? Because in the US
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: we advertise prescription medication where I'm smiling all the time
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: and happy. My barometer for life is not to be happy.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: The moments that I've done the most amazing things in
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: my life, I've not been happy. I've been fulfilled. I've
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: been like, man, I just did that. When I would
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: wake up at 3 a.m. to go to the White
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: House to stand post for 10 hours outside the Oval
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: Office in the freezing cold in the winter, I wasn't happy.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: It was freezing. I was cold. But you know what?
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: I was like, man, how did I get here?
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: Was there ever a day when you thought the president's
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: life was at risk and you were around him? Was
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: there ever a moment where you thought?
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: Every day.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: But was there a particular day where you thought, no,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: Are we screwed? Or that he was going to be attacked.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: Was there ever a moment where you genuinely thought there
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: was a genuine threat on his life? Just wondering.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: Yes and no. Yes in that, like when you would
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: do outdoor events, like certain events where he was very vulnerable,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: like he's speaking to a crowd of 10,000 people. There's
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: so many things that could go wrong, right? So those events,
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: like there was definitely that threat level was heightened. But
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: we had just put together, man, the agency was just
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: such a competent agency and there were so many layers
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: of security put in. Things that you don't see, but
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: it's the snipers, it's the counter assault team, it's the
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: air restrictions, no planes flying above ground because we put
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: those into place. It's even radiation detection, nuclear. There's so
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: many things we do that the average person has no
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: idea about. The protocols we put in place. So I
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: can't say the president per se, because I feel like
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: he got all the bells and whistles. But maybe there
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: were times where it was hard to protect certain people
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: and that that's where I felt it was harder. When
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: I protected Barbara Bush, Bush's daughter, when I had her,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: that was hard because I did not have the resources
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: that you would have for a president. And she wanted
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: to be a young girl and go out and date
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: and go to clubs and go to Coachella and do
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: these things. I had to take her to Coachella and
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I got to keep her alive. And there's,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: you know, it's Coachella. And how many people are at Coachella?
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: It's like 10,000, hundreds. I don't even know at this point.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: So those scenarios were usually the most uneasy for me
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: because I had limited resources to And it was a
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: very different environment and they want to live their life.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: Is there anything that you can't talk about? Sure.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: If you ask me something I can't answer, I'll tell you.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: But I'm interested to know what you're unable to talk about.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: You can't talk about the cars.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, the way that the cars work and the security systems.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the way, technical, mechanical things with the cars. Because
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: you have to think of it this way. Anything I
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: share here, you're going to have people that follow you,
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: that listen, but you're also going to have bad actors.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: Who listen to these interviews to gather information because they
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: want to carry out an attack. I always think like that.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: So there are certain things you can't share. I can't
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: share certain things about Air Force One. I can't share
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: certain things about like how we positioned ourselves. Like even
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: though you'll see agents around the president, there's a schematic
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: that we follow that the average person won't understand how
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: we move, our vehicles, how they're positioned and why, how
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: we would fight an attacker. Like there's scenarios we play
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: and movements that exist. It's like a dance.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: Do you have to sign a form when you leave
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: or before you start to say that I'll never speak
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: about certain things?
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: Do you know, initially know there was no such thing
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: because there was such a level of trust.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: You didn't need it.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: You didn't need it. And then one agent, and I
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: love him, he came out and he started talking about
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: things he shouldn't have talked about. And as soon as
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: he did that, the NDAs came. Which is a little
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: sad because up until that point, it was really just
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: everything we did was based on the honor system.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: Did you ever have any form of imposter syndrome? You know,
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: we talked earlier that when you joined the Secret Service,
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: there was, what, 98% men or something crazy?
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: And so as a woman in that environment, I know
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: that you underwent a lot of prejudice, a lot of discrimination,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of comments. Did that ever... leave you feeling
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: like you were somewhere you weren't supposed to be or what,
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: you know, as they describe it as imposter syndrome.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: So I hate that word and I don't let it
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: live in my head. And it's like, who invented that word?
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: I think there's like these two researchers and I want
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: to say, I could be completely wrong. So everybody be
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: kind to me if I'm making a mistake, but I
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: had looked into it and I can't remember. And I
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: think it was two researchers who invented it specifically for women.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: So I don't have imposter syndrome. I earned to where
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: I got. I killed myself to get there. So I
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: always felt like, oh, wow, how did I get here?
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: But I'm like, I got here. So I never let
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: that live in my head and take up real estate.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: So one is my naiveness and my ignorance allowed me
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: to get to where I was because I didn't have
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: this narrative. I shouldn't be there. By whose standard? That's one.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: The other thing is I'm not going to dismiss and
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: say that I did not endure difficulty. Of course I did.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: I was a woman. Yes, these things happened. I remember
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: once I was at a briefing. I was a brand new.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: We're at this one briefing. It's me and all these guys.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: And then there was a boss giving a briefing to everybody.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: He locked eye contact with everybody except me. He wouldn't
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: look at me the whole briefing. And then I ended
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: up having it for a boss for a lot of things.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: It's like I wasn't there. He'd look at everybody else.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: I knew intuitively it's like he feels weird looking at
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: me because I'm a woman. Like, okay. I was like,
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: I still deserve to be here.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: In those environments, if someone's not, if you feel like
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: your manager or your boss or the CEO or even
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: like a colleague isn't showing you respect. And I've read
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: your story. So I know that this happened multiple times
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: in your life where there'd be someone around you that
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: wasn't showing you the respect you deserve. And I have
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: a lot of people that come up to me and
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: they say, I'm struggling because my boss is not showing
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: me respect or my colleague, this colleague isn't listening to
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: me or all these kinds of things. Where does your
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: mind default to when I say that? Like, where do
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: you go to in your mind? What is your like
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: action A?
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: So with the last one you just said, my colleagues
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: don't listen to me. I would come back and I
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: would say, give me an example of where they don't
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: listen to you, right? So I would say to you,
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: when you do speak, do you look at people when
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: you speak? Do you project your voice? So it's called paralinguistics.
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: Everyone's so focused on what they say, like reading my
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: notes or reading my agenda. They don't think about the
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: tone pitch of the voice. How are you delivering this?
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: Are you projecting your voice? Give me an example. Do
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: you talk like this when you speak? I have a question.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: I just want to share something. People are going to
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: like glaze over. I have a question. Or even just
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: the tone, how you under, hi, I'm Evie. Hi, I'm Evie.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: Feels different. Those are simple things you can do to
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: make sure people hear you. The other thing is, I
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: say this a lot when I speak to companies because
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: communication is a big thing. Don't just talk to talk.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: There's this thing out there, and especially with women, Where
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: it's like, make sure they hear you. Make sure your
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: voice is heard at the table. I'm fine with that.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: Do you have something beneficial to say or a value
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: to say? Because if you don't, don't say anything. Half
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: the meetings I go to, I don't speak because maybe
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: I have nothing to say.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: It's so interesting. From being in many boardrooms for many,
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: many years, probably 15 years being in marketing boardrooms, not
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: 15 years, about 10 years being in marketing boardrooms with CEOs,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: with my team, with lots of different people, lots of
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: different teams. I've had thousands and thousands of meetings. I
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: eventually observed something in myself, which is a bit of
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: a prejudice that I have, which is the minute someone
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: speaks based on their contribution score, which is like a
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: credit score based on all of the contributions you made
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: in the past, in those first couple of seconds, if
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: their previous contributions were all valuable, everyone in the room
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: would stop and look and lean in. But if they
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: had developed a low contribution score because they'd continually talked
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: for the sake of talking, i.e. they're just like– I'll
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: give you an example. In my New York office back
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: in the day, there was this one guy who– we'd
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: be in a brainstorm trying to solve a problem. And
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: he would start speaking. And you'd see by the way
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: he started speaking that he hadn't actually thought through what
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: he was going to say. And he'd go, what about–
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: If we put a, I don't know, like a pop-up
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: and like maybe we'll do some TikToks. And so honestly,
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: what I then observed from that individual is every time
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: they open their mouth, people would instantly basically like dismiss
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: the idea because they had such a low contribution score.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: And like, we all have a contribution score. You have one,
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: I have one. based on the last 10 years of
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: when we've opened our mouth, how valuable it was to
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: the people around us. Like that individual, whenever he spoke,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: I would see the person sat next to him, who
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: I won't name, almost like low-key roll their eyes in
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: the first five seconds and shut it down before he'd
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: even got it out. And then there was this other
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: guy called, in my UK office called Paul, never spoke,
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: like never really said anything, super mature, super experienced guy.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: The minute he said anything, because every time he opened
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: his mouth, it was important and valuable and considered, everyone went,
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: he could interrupt anyone, they'd Instant silence. Everyone stares over
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: at this guy because when he contributed, we all knew
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: that he had something valuable to add. And I, so
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: I would say to my team, I said this to
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: this team that we're here with us in New York,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: like just make sure you protect your contribution score.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: That's such a brilliant way to say it. Yes. You're probably, yes.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: It's like, it's your score because people keep taps on you.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: They know Stephen's going to say something. He doesn't always speak,
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: but if he's going to say something, every time he
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: drops something, he drops something of value. Where people think like,
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: I have to talk because everyone tells me I have
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: to talk, make my voice heard. No, shut up.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: And if you're silent, then you're not a value. That's
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: what people think. They think you didn't add anything. Right. Well,
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: you didn't take anything away either.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: Yes. I will tell you this too, Stephen. When I
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: go to meetings or sometimes I go to meetings and
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: if I'm the dumbest person in the room, I'm the
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: happiest person. That's the one time where I'm happy because
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, wow, look at all these smart people around me.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: And I get to be part of this. I get
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: to listen. I love to sit back and listen. There's
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: times I just had a meeting with like my scripted agent, Sylvie,
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: with my manager about some TV project. And I knew
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: enough to know to say, they're like, hey, Evie, this
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: and this. And I said, you know what? This is
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: space I don't know. I'm going to follow your lead.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: Fill me in. I'm taking a seat back. You guys
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: do the talking.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to let you in on a little secret.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: What is in the diary of a CEO cup? This
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: cup that sits in front of me when I interview
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: these people, sometimes for three hours, And sometimes three people
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: a day. And the answer is this. Perfect Ted. I
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: invested in the company on Dragon's Den. And since then,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: they've gone from an idea to the fastest growing energy
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: drink in the UK. It is a matcha energy drink.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: And it is absolutely delicious. But that's not why I
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: choose to drink it on this podcast. The reason I
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: choose to drink it is because it gives me what
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: I call all-day energy. I don't get the same crashes
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: that I used to get with other energy drinks. If
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: you're in the middle of a conversation... or you're in
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: the middle of a talk on stage or in the boardroom,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: the last thing you want to do is have a crash.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: You don't want jitters and you need focus. And that
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: is why they now sponsor this podcast. Not only is
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: it delicious, but it gives me a significant competitive advantage.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: If you haven't tried it, go down to a Tesco,
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: go to a Waitrose, or go online and use the
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: code DIARY10 at checkout and you'll get 10% off. And
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: when you do try it, let me know how you
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: get on. You're someone who has a default to taking responsibility.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: You know, like the opposite, I guess, of taking responsibility
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: is becoming a victim, which we talked a little bit
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: about before we started recording. But people don't like taking responsibility.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: It almost is like holding a mirror up to yourself.
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: It's much easier to go through life blaming the world,
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: blaming the government, blaming circumstance, luck, parents, the guy that
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: did it to me, my ex-boyfriend, my ex-husband. It's a
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: much easier way. It's a much more comfortable way to
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: exist within your mind for most people, for a lot
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: of people. I sat with a guy called Mo Gordat
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: many years ago and the first time he came on
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: my podcast and he told me that when he writes
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: a book, he gets 500 people at random, members of
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: the public, to go into a Google Doc and kind
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: of read through it. And he goes, for some reason,
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: when people got to the section about personal responsibility, about
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: 10% of people just click off because they don't want
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: to read that.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: Because nothing's my fault.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: They don't want someone to tell them that they can
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: change their life. And I've always found that really bizarre, like,
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: People don't want to know that they, some people don't
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: want to know that wherever they are now and where
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: they want to be will largely be based in most circumstances,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: not all, be based on what they do now and
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: tomorrow and the day after. There's something about victimhood, which
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: both alleviates blame from ourselves and makes us feel justified.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: In all misery.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: Do you know, but some people want to live there.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: It becomes their identity. So I am this. I am
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: how I am today because of this thing that happened
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: to me a long time ago. I remember working with
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: this woman. There was a window during COVID when people
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: were writing to me and I was like, ah, it's quiet.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: Let me do consultations. And I did consultation mentors and
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: I had this one woman come to me and I
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: would get people like what you're talking about every now
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: and then. Usually when most people came to me though,
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: they knew what they were getting. But I would have
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: people come to me that just wanted me to validate
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: that somebody else did this to you or you're okay
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: to feel this way. This one woman came to me.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: She was a therapist. And she came to me and
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: she told me about some hardships she had when she
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: was young. I think what she had was she grew
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: up with no money. It was very traumatic. She had
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: to take care of her brother. And there was a
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: term for it. I forgot it was a clinical term.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: And because of that trauma, today she has all these issues.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: And so she's like, I have a hard time talking
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: in front of people. I have anxiety. And she was
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: telling me this stuff. I said, why don't we leave
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: what happened to you here, here? Let's leave it there.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: I said, and let's look at what we're doing because
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: you're telling me Evie, I want to perform in life,
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: but it's like, you've just bought yourself this brand new
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: Porsche and you're like, this thing won't go past 50
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: or 60. Why? Because I'm like, cause you have this
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: big ass U-Haul attached to it and it can't. So
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: why don't we leave this back there and we'll move forward.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: Would you believe Steven? She lost her mind. She's like,
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: how dare you? How dare you dismiss what I've been through?
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: How dare you? read the room? I will never forget her.
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: And the thing was, it was so part of who
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: she was today. It was her, it defined her so much.
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: She didn't want to leave it behind. She just wanted
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: to talk about it more. And so sometimes people- Why
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: doesn't she want to leave it behind?
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: Do you think?
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: Because it's her identity. It's who she is. It's like
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: people who have been through something experience. I will give
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: you another example. September 11th. So I was in the
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: World Trade Center on September 11th. I survived. I was
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: almost killed. I lost colleagues and friends, but I was
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: also around other people who experienced what I experienced and
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: different people behaved differently. And there were some people that
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: would reach out to me. I remember this one guy,
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: he was a medic and he saw what I saw.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: He experienced what I experienced and he just couldn't recover.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: And he would call me up. He's like, Evie, I'm struggling.
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: I'm struggling. And I tell him, I'm like, I think
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: his name was Jerry. I'm like, Jerry, I'm like, leave it.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: It's done. We're here. It's like, where we go? And
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: he couldn't. And all he did was talk about it.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: And the other thing he did is he went to therapy,
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: a lot of it. And I was like, dude, I
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: was like, I don't think you should be going to
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: therapy about this. Stop talking about it. I was like,
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: you're reliving it every time. Like therapy is supposed to like,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: it's a Hippocratic oath. Do no harm. Like therapy is
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: supposed to help you move forward. But if I was like,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: if I went to therapy every week and I talked
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: about 9-11, I'd be a mess. I was like, leave it.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: Let it be where it is in the past. And like,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: what do you do with what we experienced? And how
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: do we move forward? And how do we help other people?
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: And I like, that was a scenario where I was like,
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: if you keep reliving this trauma and Like you become it.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: And it was him. It was him. He left being
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: a medic. He lost his marriage. He got a divorce.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: Like his whole life just fell apart. But do you know,
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: he wanted to stay there. He didn't want to leave it.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: It was what, it was, it defined who he was.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: I met another dude. I shouldn't say dude, but I
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: met another man who I knew. He was an iron worker.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: Nice guy. He does a lot of stuff around 9-11.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: But I remember once I interviewed him for a news thing.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: He didn't know anything about me. This was strictly news
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: as a journalist after I left the Secret Service. And
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: it was a 9-11 piece we were doing. I didn't
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: say anything because of course it's not about me. It's
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: about him. I remember putting his mics on and doing
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: stuff and getting ready to do my video thing with him.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: He had like 9-11 tattoos all over his arms. And
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: like he had a 9-11 room. He's like, let me
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: show you my room. And again, I said nothing. I
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: remember thinking, I'm like, I was like, I can't, I
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: would never tattoo the towers on my arms. I was like, I,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: I can't. I'm like, what mental mindset are you going
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: to be in? And he had a room with all
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: his 9-11 stuff. I was like, I don't, I have
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: a valor ward. It's not, it's under my bed. I,
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: my dad had took it. He hung it. Then when
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: he passed away, I took it and I put it,
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: I put it away again. It's under my bed. I
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: think that these things, like there are certain types of people, Steven,
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: that they want to be tied to this. It's their story.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: And when they meet you, they're going to tell you
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: about it. Oh, do you know what I would have
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: been through? I'm recovering from this. I'm surviving for this.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: You come across those folks because that's their identity. It's
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: become who they are and they don't know how to
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: let it go. And it's okay, but that's for them.
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: It's not for me.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: What is the harm then of not letting go of
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: our trauma and embodying it and allowing it to become
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: our identity? What does it stop us from doing?
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: Because I'm not a 9-11 survivor. I'm Evie. That's something
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: I experienced one day in my life. And you're going
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: to tell me that one day defines who I am
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: for the rest of my life? Fuck no.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: If it does, what's the harm? Who's that going to become?
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be a mess. I'm going to be
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: afraid to go in a high-rise building. I'm going to
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: be afraid to get onto a plane. Three weeks after 9-11,
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: I got on a plane. I was like, no, no, no, no.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: This is not kill fear while it's still small. This
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: is not going to become a monster. I got my
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: ass on a plane. I was like, I can't control
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: everything in my life, but I can navigate the outcome
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: of my life to some degree, not all. I'm not
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: going to be at the mercy of the world. I
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: can take ownership to some degree, Stephen, but I have
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: to choose to want it. Not everybody wants it, but
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: it's also I have to, you and I or whoever
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: has to have enough intelligence to see that when someone
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: is like that, just leave them. They don't want you
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: to fix their problems. They want to be there. Let
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: them be there. However, if it's someone you're looking to
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: hire or date or hang out with, now you decide,
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: is this someone I want to be around because it
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: is not good for me? Those are two different things.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: I want to come back to this 9-11 thing, but
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: it reminded me of a conversation I had with someone
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: recently where they were telling me about all the problems
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: in their life and problems they were having with a
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: particular job that they have. And I remember asking them,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: I was like, did you, you chose that job, right?
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: And you can leave. And they were so offended by
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: the idea that they had a choice. And eventually they
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: admitted to me that they could leave and they would
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: be fine because they have enough money and that they
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: interviewed for that job and went for it. And they
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: also could leave, but they weren't interested in choice. I
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: remember saying to them, I've never, this is a good
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: friend of mine. I remember saying to them, why don't
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: you want power in this situation? Why don't you want
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: to be empowered. You're like, I could observe in them
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: that they wanted to be disempowered. They wanted to be powerless.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: They wanted to be a victim of circumstance. They didn't
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: want to have a conversation about choices and the decisions
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: they could make. They were not interested. And I thought,
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, like what a way to live. What a
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: way to live, to not want to, you know, because
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: objectively bad things happen to people. You know, traumas, they
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: go through things which were nothing of their doing. They
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: weren't to blame. But it doesn't mean, right, that we
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: can't do something about it. There's a very two different things.
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: But you have to want it. Some people don't. So
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: I think what you'll do is you'll be able to,
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: people come to you and they'll say, Stephen, I need
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: help or this and that. But you'll be able to
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: see who genuinely really wants to move forward, who just
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: wants to just tell you about it.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: How would you be able to identify the difference?
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: So people who are, it's called being identity. And I
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: used this word before, but more in a clinical, not
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: in a clinical, but more in the way that I've
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: learned it through training and my research. I also have
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: a master's in forensic psychology. When someone is identity, they
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: use repeated, you'll hear them say I, I, I, I
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: a lot. You can even see this in an email.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: People who are identity tend to be highly depressed. have
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of anxiety. They're very self-focused. They're very emotional based.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: So you can spot these individuals. Now, look, we all
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: visit identity land from time to time. Like I may
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: go through something difficult and have a moment in this
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: identity space, but then I'm like, okay, I have to recover.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: But some people stay in this space. It's like their
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: predominant disposition. So repeated use of I this, I that,
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: I feel, I want, I went through, that's one red flag.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: The other thing is they're very emotional. You'll see there's
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: links to depression. They're typically depressed, but they stay in
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: this space. The other thing is people like this who
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: complain a lot. Do you know that when you relive
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: a trauma or you complain or you have drama, like
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: you get those cortisol hits. You'll get also adrenaline hits.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: You get F3. It's your fight, flight, freeze response. We peak.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: And some people get addicted to that peak. I'm addicted
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: to the trauma. I'm addicted to feeling that. It's like
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: last week I was racing a car. I was at
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: Porsche and I was racing cars for fun. And when
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: you're in the car, you're in the present, right? I'm like, shh, look,
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: trying not to hit the cones, doing whatever. I'm there.
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: I'm in the moment. But like my adrenaline's going up.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: I'm peaking. I've got my F3s on fire. But I'm focused.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: It feels, I feel alive. So for some people, when
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: they get into this state, when they relive this stuff
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: and they have these spikes or you see them very
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: high conflict driven, are high drama driven, they get these spikes.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: And it's when they feel in the moment, they feel
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: alive and you become addicted to it. It also becomes
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: a habit.
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: I was thinking then about this idea of identity and
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: what identity also sometimes seems to give people is it
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: gives them a community and it gives them a sense
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: of belonging and it gives them purpose, which we're all
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: searching for. Like if I'm a insert trauma, then I
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: instantly have a community of people that will make me
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: feel Like I belong. And then that is something I
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: don't want to give up. If I give up my trauma,
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: I end up giving up my sense of purpose, my community,
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: who I belong to, the way the world understands me.
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: And that's, oh, I guess another reason why it can
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: be so sticky. Like our traumas can be so sticky.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: Because we build our whole like our social circle around them.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: We go to events about it. We're in little social
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: media groups about it.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: But I think today trauma has become like a badge
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: of honor now. In fact, you hear people talking and
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: it's like a competition about who has more trauma. Is
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: it not that? I have more trauma than you. No,
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: I've had it harder than you. It's a competition of
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: who's had it the hardest. And it's become like this
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: thing now that we put on a pedestal. I think
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: it's just a new way to draw attention to ourselves
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: and to make ourselves relevant.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: It's like ego and status.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: It is ego. It is status. And it's interesting, the
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: sense of belonging in group, out group. That's a whole
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: other psychological thing. If I'm in a group and I
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: feel like I belong somewhere, it's like how– I'm taking
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: it back to crime gangs or why people join terrorist organizations.
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: They join it because they want to be part of something.
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: It's not because they're bad people. I want to feel
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: like I'm part of a group. And so this makes
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: me feel relevant. which is fine, but to a degree,
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: you also have to have your sovereignty as a person.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: We want to be part of something because we don't
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: want to be out there and alone out there. But
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: you don't have to be alone out there. But we
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: hitch ourselves to these narratives. And now my identity is
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: I'm a survivor of this. I am someone who's experienced this.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: It's like, no, those are things that happen to me,
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: but they are not who I am. I'm an evolving thing.
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: I called my book Becoming Bulletproof because I am always
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: becoming I'm becoming more. I'm evolving. We don't stop. I
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: don't want to stop. I'm never going to get to
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: a point where I know everything. Every day I learn something.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 2: What was the most interesting day of your career? When
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: I say interesting, the day that you think about and go, Jesus,
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: that was like awesome. Or that was from a movie.
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: So I have, I can give you a story, which
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: I don't think I've shared. So because I didn't look
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: like an agent, I would get pulled in for a
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: lot of undercover stuff, which I loved. It was fun, scary,
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: but because I never got pegged for an agent, like
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: I always felt super safe. So I did this one
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: thing where it was another undercover case where they came
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: to me and we were working with NYPD. It wasn't
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: my case, but they wanted me, there was this organized
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: crime ring. I think they were Albanian and they were
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: selling passports, original passports and birth certificates to terrorists. This is,
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: and so they're selling it to them to help them
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: come into the US and to other, other people who
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: are bad actors. So we, they, the agencies get wind
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: of this and they want to get this, these, these guys,
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: this guy specifically with this organized crime ring. They're trying
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: to figure out how to get in because they were
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: so good at what they did. Like you couldn't get them.
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: So They wanted me to go in undercover and pretend
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: to be someone who needed paperwork. So they're trying to
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: figure out how do we do it. So the idea
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: we came up with was I would be someone who
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: had been sex trafficked from an Eastern Bloc country because
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: I can pass for it. So I started talking on
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: the phone. I was introduced him through another undercover and
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: talking to him on the phone. And I had to
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: develop an Eastern Bloc accent. I need my papers. They
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: brought me here from my country. Because when they sex
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: traffic people in, the first thing they do when they
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: lure you in is they'll take your paperwork from you.
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: And you can't even get a cell phone here in
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: the US without paperwork. So they take your stuff and
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: then they put you either to do sex work or
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: work in strip clubs or both until you pay off
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: your debt for them bringing you to America. So I
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 1: pretended to be one of those. So I, you know,
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: Under that premise, I have no paperwork, so I can't
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: get an apartment. I can't get anything. I'm at the
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: mercy of these traffickers, which until I pay my dues,
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: which you never do, by the way, they keep you
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: locked in. And then they make them afraid and they
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: tell them if you say anything, they're going to deport
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: you back, which actually is not true. However, so I
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: take on this role. I start talking to this guy.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: I need papers. I please, they take my papers. How
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: much for new papers?
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: How did you learn this accent? Did you just go online?
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: I studied acting. And of course, my parents are immigrants.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: I grew up in New York and Queens, so I
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: just picked them up. But I practiced it. And I
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: had to be good because if you're not good, you
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: get a bullet to the head when you meet this guy.
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: So you have to live in reality because my life
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: is also on the line. And so I have these
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: phone calls with him. He agrees, okay, I'll meet with you.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: So my first meeting is passport photos. I had to
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: go get passport photos. I go meet him. And I
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: remember when I met him at his I think he
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: did construction was the outside thing he did. We meet him.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: I'm in like dress clothes. I'm dressing like as a
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: very young woman, but I also had to put on
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: sneakers because I'm like, hey, if this guy has to
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: do something, I need to be able to run. So
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: I meet him. I bring my passport photos. I go
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: to this location. That's a front. Hi, I'm here to see.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: I don't remember the guy's name. They're like, oh, no,
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: he's not here. You'll have to wait for him. So
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: they play with me for a little while. You know,
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: everyone's watching me from the outside, but I have no
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: wire on. And we debated whether I should have a
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: wire or not or a gun. And I chose to
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: take nothing. So I've got nothing with me, which makes
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: me more vulnerable. But my concern was if they put
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: me through a metal detector or they checked me, that
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: would be worse because now I'm in their home and
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: like they'll just off me right off the bat. So
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: I'm sitting there and I'm waiting. He finally comes and
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: he tries to lure me into his car. And I
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: had been briefed, whatever you do, you don't get into
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 1: a car with this guy. So I don't get in
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: the car and I'm like, no, no, no, no, I
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: don't get in the car. He's like, no, we need
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: to talk private. Now I have eyes on me and
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: I want to make sure the agents and everybody can
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: see me. So there's this back and forth where I'm like, please,
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: I afraid I don't want to go into the car.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: His passport photos. I give him, I think it was
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: five G's. I give him an envelope of five grand.
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: Here's the five grand. He's like, okay, come back in
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: like two weeks. And he's like, maybe you'll get in
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: my car. So I come back like two weeks later,
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: same story. I meet him. I get my passports. He
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: gave me a Polish passport. I won't forget. It was
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: a real authentic Polish passport and a certificate, birth certificate
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: and all that. And I'm like, the deal was, though,
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: I needed more transactions with this guy because the more
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: you get, the longer you can put them away. But
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: he was so good. We couldn't get anything that we
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: knew he had done. So I'm like, hey, I have
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: more friends. Can I send you more girls? I'll bring
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: you more girls. So he's like, oh, yeah. So then
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: I start bringing him more girls.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: Who are these girls?
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: Other undercovers, other undercover female agents and cops. We had
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: NYPD play. And so we go in and we're doing
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: this buying and selling transactions, transactions till we got enough
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: to get the U.S. attorney to say, yes, we got him.
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: And then they went in and they took him down.
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: That was pretty interesting.
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: Were you scared at any point?
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: I was not. Because I always felt safe in that
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: nobody even ever thought I was a cop. Nobody ever
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: thought I was an agent. I didn't look like one.
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: I didn't speak like one. So I felt very safe.
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: On that point, because you don't look like an agent,
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: I understand how that's useful for the going undercover. But
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: it's got to lead people to underestimate you in your
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: professional career. Yes. And a lot of people that I've
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: spoken to, I was speaking at a a women's leadership
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: conference about a week ago in London. And lots of
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: the questions from the audience were about that subject, about
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: being underestimated and how to deal with that. It was
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: a DEI conference, so diversity, equity, inclusion conference. Lots of
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: people that are black, lots of people that are women,
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: lots of people that are from different sort of minority groups.
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: And the question came up about like being underestimated because
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: of your skin colour, because of your gender, because of
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: something else. How do you deal with that? And it's
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: something that I thought a lot about when I started
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: in business at 18 years old as a university dropout.
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: I'm going into rooms and I'm dealing with men that
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 2: are all in suits and they're triple my age. I'm 18.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: I know they're looking at me with my Afro, my
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: fake tie, like my little cheap tie, thinking, who the
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: fuck is this guy? But have you seen that underestimation
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: of you as a disadvantage or an advantage?
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: It's how you choose to view it. I remember once
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: I was in Africa. Where was I? Botswana.
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: Where I was born.
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: You were born in Botswana?
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: I spent a whole month. I've been to Africa a lot.
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: I loved Botswana. I remember I had to close the
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: windows at the hotel because they said the monkeys come in.
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: And I was like, monkeys? I thought it was cool though.
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: I was like, no, I'll leave them open. They're like, no, no,
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: you don't want the monkeys coming in your room. So
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time in Botswana. And I
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: was there with, I did a trip where I went
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: from Botswana to Tanzania. And I was with Barbara excuse me,
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: Laura Bush, the daughter, President Bush's daughter. She was doing
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: some work there, nonprofit work. And when I was her,
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: it's called an assistant detail leader. So I was kind
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: of like her main person. And then I had a
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: team under me. So I have my team and I'm
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: holding a briefing. I'm in charge. And we're in the
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: hotel room. We're there to meet before our trip starts.
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: So they sent me agents from different parts of the world.
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: They come in. And the first agent that walked in,
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: I was by myself in the room. First agent walked in,
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: he's like, hey, oh, hey, hi, how are you? I'm like, oh, good,
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: how are you? He said, are you with the staff?
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: Are you an intern? Because if the staff's office is
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: down the hall, if you want to go to the
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: staff's office, I'll show you where it is. You know,
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: so I don't show it. So I keep my face
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 1: and I said, no, I'm actually agent Pamparis. I'm I'm
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: the one who's holding the brief and hi, good to
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: meet you. Meaning I'm your supervisor for this trip. And
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: he's like, oh, okay. Hi, nice to meet you. Now
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: I could sit there and be pissed about this or
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: I can just leave it. Sometimes like Steven, like who cares?
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: Like who cares? I can't care so much. There's some
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 1: things you need to care about and some things you don't.
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: And as you were talking about, you know, who we are,
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: when I went to poly school, What's poly school? I'm sorry.
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: Polygraph school. It's where I went to the Department of
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: Defense to be trained to be an interrogator it was
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: a really selective school and it was like the who's
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: who of agencies were there and um we were all
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: in the classroom and i remember i was walking with
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: a colleague of mine we'll call him k um k
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: and i are walking and we're walking back to our
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: hotel it's just he and i and he was quiet
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: i'm like hey what's wrong and he's like He's like,
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: you know what? He's like, I don't know. He's like,
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: it's just like the group of people. And he was
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: an agent. He was a Secret Service agent. I was like,
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: he's like, did you notice, like, did you take toll
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: of the room? I'm like, what about the room? He said,
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm the only black guy in the room.
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: And I was just like, huh. And I paused. And
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: we had been there like maybe a couple of weeks already.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I stopped. I said, I had to
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: do the mental, like, assessment. I was like, yeah, Kay,
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: you're right. You are. And he looked at me. He's like,
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: you're the only female agent in the room too. And
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: I was like, am I? And I stopped and did
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: a mental assessment. I was like, yeah, you're right. And
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 1: it made me sad in that moment. Cause I'm thinking like,
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: look what Kay's thinking about. And I hadn't even thought
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: about it. And what, what ended up happening is like,
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: I would invite him on. I'm like, Hey, come on.
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: We're going with the guys. He's like, but they don't
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: invite me. I'm like, dude, you don't need a special invite.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: They don't invite me either. We just go. And because
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: he built this narrative in his head, because he thought,
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: because he was different or I was different, we weren't wanted.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: Makes you show up different, doesn't it?
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 1: You show up different. And he was such a great guy,
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 1: such a competent guy. And I would actually sit there.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay. I'm like, nobody's thinking like that. And
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: there was a group of guys that were with us
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: that were Secret Service guys. And I was like, I
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: am telling you, these guys are not thinking about, you're black,
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: I'm a woman. I don't think they give a shit.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: And he's like, I don't know. He's like, I don't
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: want to just show up. I'm like, I do. I
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: ask them every day, what are we having for dinner?
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: I don't want to eat alone. And I would have
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: to go knock on his door. And I remember it
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: came to a point. He's like, I want them to
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 1: invite me. And I had to go to the guys.
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: I'm like, can you guys do me a solid? Can
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: you invite Kay? Cause he thinks I'm inviting him. And
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: I guess it's not enough to have the woman invite you.
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: I was like, can you invite him? Cause he feels
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: like you guys don't want him. And they looked at
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: me like, what? I was like, just go knock on
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 1: his door. Tell him we're having dinner tonight. But he
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: had set himself up mentally in such a space and
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: he lived there. And I was like, man, I can't
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: live here.
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because it begs the question sometimes what's doing
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: more harm, the discrimination or the belief that you're being
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: discriminated against? Sometimes it's, you know, I'm black, you're a woman.
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: I often wondered this in my early career. I had
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: a really adverse reaction one day when I saw this
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: grant that they did. I was 18, 19 years old,
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: had no money. And I saw that they were doing
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 2: this grant for young black entrepreneurs. And there was something
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 2: about it, which like just irked me. I don't know why.
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: I've never really understood why, but I wanted to be
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 2: considered on my merits, not my skin color. So when
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: I saw that they were giving out these grants to
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 2: young black kids, you would think I'd go, amazing, give
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: me the money. But in my head, I was like,
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: I hate that. I hate that because it's a reminder
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: that it's like them thinking, and I know this is
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 2: a super complex thing, right? For me, it was like,
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: they think I'm not good enough. So they have to
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: give me a foot up. I know it's deeper and
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: it's more systemic, but I've always tried to stay away
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 2: from that. Especially when I learned about labeling theory, which
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 2: you see play out in kids in school, when they
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 2: get like an F on an exam, the implicit sort
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: of message to themselves is that like, I am an F.
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 2: And when you, when you overlay that with this, the
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: thing I was reading about called stereotype threat, where they
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 2: like remind a woman before a math exam, they ask
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: her to put her like gender on the math exam.
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 2: And then she performs worse. So they remind a black person,
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: about their race by asking them to tick a box
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: with their race. And then those people perform worse on
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 2: the exam because we're reminded of our identity. And we,
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: all of the identity stuff that you talked about, we
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: then perform worse. I've always tried to make sure that
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: I don't ever believe that my race is a, is
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 2: a reason not to show up and give everything I
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 2: am in every situation. And I, I can see how
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 2: for some people, anything that someone might discriminate you for
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: can also cause harm if you start to believe it,
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: you start to embody it, you start to look for it.
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 2: And you let it become real in your mind. This
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: is not to say that objectively discrimination and prejudice isn't real.
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 2: I've always been well aware that it's real. But as
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: you said earlier, I'm also of the mind that it's
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 2: not my problem in that moment to try and change someone.
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: Yes. I get what you're saying. Labeling theory, we use
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: it in criminal justice too. When you label somebody a
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: criminal or an offender- and you put that label on them,
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: they are more likely to re-offend again. Because you're just
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: reminding me that I'm just a bad person. So if
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: that's what I am, that's what I'm going to think like.
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: And I will tell you, every time somebody asks me, like,
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: what was it like being a female special agent? I
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: always get like a teeny tiny pang. And I want
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: to be like, how many dudes do you sit in
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 1: this chair and ask them, was it like being an agent?
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: Why do I get that? I was an agent. I
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: earned it. I earned it like everybody. And I also
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 1: had to perform like everybody. And yes, it implies like,
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: and you hear it sometimes or sometimes like maybe you'll
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: read like, I'll see an interview of mine and you'll
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: see token hire or female, you know, however they word it. Like, oh,
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: you could tell she was a female hire. And you
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: just want to be like, I'm not going to give
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 1: the finger because we're being PG here, even though we've
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: cursed a few times. But I just want to flip
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: the board. It's like, dude, like you don't know what
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: I went through to be that. Don't give me a handout.
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 1: I want an opportunity. Fine. but I'm going to own it.
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: And even in training, they had, you know, and I
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 1: have talked about this before in training, like I found
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: out they had male standards and female standards for performance.
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Military too. There's different schools on this. So I,
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: according to this, I don't have to run as fast
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: as the guy, according to these standards. According to these standards,
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: I don't have to do as many pull-ups or push-ups.
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: I didn't know this when I got hired. I find
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: out later because some agents in training made sure that
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: I knew hey, just so you know, you got special
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 1: treatment to get here. And I'm thinking, what are you
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: talking about? They're like, well, the standards that we have
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 1: to meet and that you have to meet are not
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: the same. Clearly, I'm not happy about this. I find out,
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: I get the male standards and I'm like, I felt horrible.
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: I remember when they told me this, I went to
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: my room that night and I felt horrible about it.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, there's a part of me that's like,
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 1: fuck these guys. How dare you talk to me like that?
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: I have just as much right to be here as you.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: And then there's the other part of me that's like, well,
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: they're right. So I was like, well, I was like,
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to perform like they do. And
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 1: so I just started, Stephen, like working out like a maniac.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't want to hear anything
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 1: from anybody. And I worked out and I worked out
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 1: and I worked out morning and night. So I was like,
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be at their level. I'm going to
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: score what they score. But I will also tell you,
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 1: because there were a couple of girls in my class,
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: like maybe another one or two, I can't remember. They
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: didn't care. They were fine with the female standards. So
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: I've seen both. I've seen both. I'm not judging them.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: I chose my own path. But I've also seen it
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 1: where I've seen, and I'm just speaking from the female standard,
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 1: where a woman was okay, who is an agent, not
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: being able to do a pull-up. And I'm thinking, like,
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 1: that's no good either.
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: It's complex, isn't it? Because when we have these conversations,
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: it always sounds like we're saying that prejudice and discrimination
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 2: aren't very real things. But what we're saying is we're
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 2: not going to make them our problem.
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: It's not my identity.
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's your problem. If that's part of you, and
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to commit my very limited energy to
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 2: fixing everybody I meet. It's like, Jesus Christ, I've got
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 2: enough stuff to be thinking about than fixing everybody and
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 2: correcting everybody, which some people fall into the trap of that.
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 2: They go around their lives trying to fix the world.
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 2: And you can't get much done.
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 1: How tiring is that? How exhausting is that? And how
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: mentally draining and how even just emotionally, like what does
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: that do to your soul that you're trying to fix that?
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: Who are you fighting? I guess that's, who are you fighting?
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to, maybe if you're sovereign in here
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 1: and you know, you show, I feel like you show people.
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not, I know those things exist. I know it.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 1: My parents were immigrants. My dad, like he would always
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: pick for Middle Eastern and he had, even though he
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 1: was Greek and he had a really heavy accent, I
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: saw how people treated him. even as a man, but
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: like seeing him like Middle Eastern, dark tone, heavy accent.
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: Like my brother and I, we'd go through like security
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 1: at the airport. He's like, we always knew he was
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 1: going to get pulled. He's like, who's going, you or me?
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: And it would hurt my heart to see how he
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 1: was treated. But you can't sit and fight everybody. Like
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: I'm not, the space you take up in the world
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 1: is just, and your time here, man, it's just so finite.
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 1: Fight who you need to fight if you have to fight.
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: But like you have a choice and I'm just too busy.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 1: And like you, I have things to do and I
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 1: can't sit and waste my time on every buffoon that
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: comes my way that's thinking and seeing me through a
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: certain lens. Not my problem. Sometimes it is my problem.
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: And if it's my performance. So like with the scenario
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 1: I gave you before, I get that. I get what
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 1: they were saying. Fair enough. I'm not qualifying at the
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 1: standards you are. I'm going to do it. But I
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: don't want to hear shit from anybody once I do it.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: But even then, Stephen, I still heard shit. And that's
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: when you know you're the problem. I'm not the problem.
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 1: At some point, you have to be able to like
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: write it off.
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because you did a little gesture then, which
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 2: was kind of, it looked like you were making a
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: little bubble around yourself. And that bubble is, in the
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 2: way that I perceived it, was like, I'm going to
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: just protect this space here. because you're thinking about the
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 2: border agent that like pulls you into the back room
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 2: for four hours, which happens to me quite a lot
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 2: for a variety of different reasons. I was actually an
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 2: article about it, like a couple of weeks, a couple
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: of months back that I'd been pulled into this like
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 2: back room that he threw up or over and over
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 2: and over and over again. In the moments when I
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: fight that situation, I do so much harm to my
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 2: own energy. I'm like letting resentment in. And it's so
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 2: tempting because it objectively probably is prejudice or some kind
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 2: of like injustice. But I have to be conscious, as
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: you always talk about, like of that energy exchange. It's
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 2: almost impossible to like do a one-way transfer of energy.
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 2: It's always like a two-way transfer.
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 1: I think you can. Like, I feel like it's your
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: mental armor, like that bubble. Mm-hmm. Like you can bubble
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: wrap yourself. You can look at somebody and be like,
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 1: all right, I know what I got. I don't have
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: time because I'm busy. What do you need to ask me?
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: Are we done? Okay. Because I do agree with you.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 1: Sometimes if you fight it, their perception is going to be,
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 1: and I'm telling you because I'm former law enforcement, they're thinking, oh,
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: why is he escalating? Oh, why is he this? Why
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 1: does he have a problem? But from your standpoint, sure.
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: Are they picking you for a specific reason? Chances are
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: if it keeps happening to you over and over again,
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, there's something there. And there is something systemic there.
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: I'm not dismissing that those things don't exist, but it's
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: also like, how much energy are you going to put in?
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: And I guess, is the energy you're putting in worth
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: the outcome? That's all.
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 2: Becoming bulletproof. Life lessons from a secret service agent. The
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 2: quote on the front from Roger Alton at the Daily
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 2: Mail is part memoir, part hugely entertaining self-help manual for
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 2: these tough times. Protect yourself, read people, influence situations. and
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 2: live fiercely, become bulletproof. The paperback edition of this book
• 1:59:55
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• 1:59:58
  Speaker 2: to this conversation should have enough evidence as to why
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 2: they need to read this book, because it's a really,
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 2: really accessible, important book that's full of incredible, actionable advice
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 2: that we can translate to the boardroom, to our relationships,
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: to our lives more broadly, to enable us to become
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 2: who we want to become. We have a closing tradition
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 2: on this podcast. where the last guest leaves a question
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 2: for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 2: be leaving it for. And the question that has been
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 2: left for you inside the diary of a CEO is,
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 2: what about your body health have you struggled with the most?
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: And what did you do to fix it or improve it?
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 1: After I gave birth, because it was such a, my
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: body went through so much trauma. I had to leave
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 1: it alone and let it heal. Oh, you know what
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: else I did when I was pregnant? Because I worked
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 1: out my whole life. The entire time I was pregnant,
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 1: I didn't work out. So I guess listen to your
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 1: body and give it what it needs. It'll tell you.
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 2: Evie, thank you so much.
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Stephen.
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 2: You're a huge inspiration for so many people for so
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 2: many reasons that I think I'd be here all day
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 2: if I went through the entire list. You're an inspiration
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 2: because of your vulnerability, because of the way that you
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 2: articulate wisdom in such accessible, relatable ways to people. And really,
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 2: you know, you said you don't really like the word,
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 2: but unfortunately you are a role model to many people
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 2: for many, many reasons, because your life and your career
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 2: are evidence to all of us that we can climb
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 2: to the top of the mountain, regardless of all of
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 2: the hurdles and obstacles that are in our way. And
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 2: much of that comes down to the way that we
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 2: perceive those obstacles and hurdles. And also from speaking to you,
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 2: I realized that many of those obstacles and hurdles that
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 2: are in our way as we journey up that mountain,
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 2: have been placed there ourselves, by ourselves. And I think
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 2: that is an incredibly liberating thing. Your book is a
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 2: must-read for all people, for both men and women that
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 2: are trying to climb their own personal or professional mountain
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 2: and become more, as you said at the start of
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 2: this conversation. So thank you so much for your wisdom.
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you for all the work you're doing. And thank
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: you on behalf of all the people you've helped.
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Stephen. Thank you.
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 2: How many of you started thinking about your long-term health
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 2: when you hit 30? For me, this was a wake-up
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 2: moment of me thinking to myself, okay, I probably need
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 2: to start paying a little bit more attention now. I
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 2: already felt a change in myself when I hit 30
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 2: with things like my metabolism, my energy levels. So this
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 2: year is no different. Zoe, which is a company I've
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 2: invested in, but also a company that are a sponsor
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 2: of this podcast, helps me to make smarter food choices,
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 2: all based on their world-leading science and my own test results.
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: If I'm ordering food, I know how to make my
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 2: takeaway so much smarter by adding things like a side
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 2: of vegetables to eat first or choosing the option with
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 2: the most fiber. Zoe helps me to make that choice.
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 2: It guides me and coaches me. It's my personalized nutrition
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 2: coach that I have on me 24-7. And to help
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 2: you start your Zoe journey and start making smarter food choices,
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 2: I'm giving you guys 10% off when you join Zoe now.
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 2: All you've got to do is use code CEO10 at
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 2: the checkout when you sign up. Enjoy, and let me
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 2: know how you get on.
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 1: So Thank you.