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From the archives: Mary Jo Barrett, MSW · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Are Today we even another episode from the archives with
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Speaker 1: one of my incredible guests. Enjoy Welcome to the Trauma
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Speaker 1: Therpists podcast, a show about the incredible people dedicated to
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Speaker 1: helping those have experienced trauma. My name is Got macpherson
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Speaker 1: and my mission is to raise awareness of trauma and
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Speaker 1: to inspire each of us to help those around us.
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Speaker 2: So welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast.
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Speaker 3: My name is Gay McPherson, and this is a podcast
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Speaker 3: where we interview master trauma therapists from all over the
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Speaker 3: world to learn about what inspires them and the steps
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Speaker 3: they've taken to become masters in their field. If you're
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Speaker 3: a trauma therapist, or if you're interested in trauma therapy,
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Speaker 3: or even if you're just passionate about helping other people,
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Speaker 3: this is it today. I'm so excited to introduce my guest,
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Speaker 3: Mary Joe Barrett.
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Speaker 2: Mary Joe, are you ready to go?
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Speaker 4: Yes? All right?
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Speaker 2: So.
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Speaker 3: Mary Joe is the executive director and co founder of
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Speaker 3: the Center for Textual Change. She holds a master's in
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Speaker 3: Social work from the University of Illinois Jane Adams School
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Speaker 3: of Social Work and it's currently on the faculties of
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Speaker 3: the University of Chicago School of Social Service Administration, the
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Speaker 3: Chicago Center for Family Health, and the Family Institute of
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Speaker 3: Northwestern University.
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Speaker 2: Mary Joe Is co authored two books with.
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Speaker 3: Doctor Terry Trepper, first Incest Multiple Systems Perspective and the second,
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Speaker 3: The Systemic Treatment of Incest Therapeutic Handbook, both of which
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Speaker 3: will be available on the Show notes page. So, Mary Joe,
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Speaker 3: I've told our listeners just a little bit about you.
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Speaker 3: Take a moment, share with us something personal about yourself,
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Speaker 3: let us get to know you, and then we will
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Speaker 3: dive in.
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Speaker 5: Okay, Well, first, let me just add one thing. I
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Speaker 5: had a book that just came out in June. Wow.
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Speaker 4: Okay, so we'll put that in.
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Speaker 5: It's Treating Complex Trauma cool one. Relational Blueprints for co
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Speaker 5: Operation and Change.
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Speaker 2: Nice. Okay, we'll definitely have that on the shows page
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Speaker 2: as well.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I wrote that came out in June. It's
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Speaker 4: with Religion.
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Speaker 5: I wrote that with doctor Linda Stone from Syracuse University.
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Speaker 4: So bio. Other than that, you've said a lot about the.
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Speaker 5: Technical I've been working in the field of traumas since nineteen.
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Speaker 4: Seventy six, and I can tell you a little bit
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Speaker 4: about that in a minute.
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Speaker 5: And have three grown children who range at age from
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Speaker 5: twenty through thirty, and probably when we talk a little
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Speaker 5: bit more in terms of one of.
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Speaker 4: The things besides being a trauma expert, I think.
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Speaker 5: I'm an expert in how to stay in the field
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Speaker 5: for so long, and as a for new clinicians or
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Speaker 5: new people working in the trauma I think one of
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Speaker 5: the contributions I have is to stay optimistic and energetic
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Speaker 5: about the exciting work that we all do. You know,
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Speaker 5: I really feel like being a trauma therapist is a
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Speaker 5: sacred journey that we're all on, and it really is
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Speaker 5: really really sacred work, and so there it's about not
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Speaker 5: just taking care of our clients, it's also about taking
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Speaker 5: care of ourselves so that we can stay in the field.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that.
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Speaker 3: How to stay in the field, you know, for so long,
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Speaker 3: and this being a sacred journey.
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Speaker 2: I think those topics are so relevant for what we're doing.
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Speaker 3: And that theme comes up again and again, Thanks so
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Speaker 3: much for bringing that up, and we'll definitely talk about that.
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Speaker 2: So let's use this Mary Joe to.
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Speaker 3: Kind of transition to our next topic, which is the
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Speaker 3: quote you know this podcast, The Trauma Therapist PODCAS Cast
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Speaker 3: is about getting to know master trauma therapists with the
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Speaker 3: goal of inspiring other clinicians. So we want to get
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Speaker 3: to know you and what's inspired you to pursue this
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Speaker 3: pair this path. Share with us something, Share with us
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Speaker 3: a quote, a mantra saying whatever it is that's kind
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Speaker 3: of driven.
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Speaker 2: You or guided you along your journey.
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Speaker 4: Okay. Quote.
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Speaker 5: It's a kind of an interesting quote because one of
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Speaker 5: the things that I talk a lot about this in
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Speaker 5: my new book.
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Speaker 4: Is this concept of ethical attunement.
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Speaker 5: And when we start talking later about my particular model
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Speaker 5: and specialty and drama, I mean my biggest emphasis where
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Speaker 5: I think that I have something I want to keep
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Speaker 5: in the awareness of the listening to the people who
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Speaker 5: are listening, is this concept of being attuned to sell
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Speaker 5: as well as to the client at the same time.
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Speaker 5: This concept in the title of my book was a
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Speaker 5: blueprint for collaboration and change, the relational blueprint for collaboration
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Speaker 5: and change. And I think that is the most to me.
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Speaker 5: The essence of good traumaty is collaboration, compassion, and a
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Speaker 5: comprehensive service that you have to stay aware of not
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Speaker 5: only what's going on between you and the client, but
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Speaker 5: what's going on and where of yourself and aware of
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Speaker 5: the client. So there's this attainment concept, and so that
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Speaker 5: the quote I like the best for this to talk
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Speaker 5: about this is a quote from Already Lang. The quote
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Speaker 5: is the range of what we think and do is
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Speaker 5: limited by what we failed to notice. And because we
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Speaker 5: failed to notice that we fail to notice, there is
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Speaker 5: little we can do.
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Speaker 4: To change.
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Speaker 5: Until we notice. How failing to notice shapes our thoughts.
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Speaker 4: Indeed.
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Speaker 2: Okay, So that's that's pretty deep.
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Speaker 3: It is pretty deep, and it's really profound, and I
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Speaker 3: love how it brings back the element of the significance
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Speaker 3: of this work, how it comes back on us as clinicians,
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Speaker 3: and the importance of you know, us honing and cultivating
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Speaker 3: and developing our own awareness for the purpose of helping
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Speaker 3: our clients. So break that down, if you will, And
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Speaker 3: how has that particular quote and that theme played out
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Speaker 3: for you. Why is that particular theme important and significant
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Speaker 3: for you?
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Speaker 5: Okay, I can make it talking about my my story.
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Speaker 5: So my story that makes this quote. I started in
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Speaker 5: the field in nineteen seventy six. I started with parents anonymous. Okay,
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Speaker 5: So parents Anonymous was basically exactly what you would think
7:17
Speaker 5: it was a health group, anonymous self health group based
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Speaker 5: on steps different twelve steps to help people not abuse
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Speaker 5: their kids, their children. And basically, back in nineteen seventy six,
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Speaker 5: there wasn't a trauma field. I mean, if you really
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Speaker 5: really think about the trauma field, the trauma field started
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Speaker 5: in interpersonal violence. It started with child abuse, neglect, domestic violence,
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Speaker 5: sexual abuse.
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Speaker 4: That really is where it started.
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Speaker 5: Back in nineteen seventy six, we didn't talk about trauma.
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Speaker 5: All we talked about would be war, trauma, PTSD. My
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Speaker 5: history in the trauma field is my specialty is really
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Speaker 5: interpersonal violence.
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Speaker 4: And when I started, when I got trained in.
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Speaker 5: As a social worker and then got trained as a
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Speaker 5: family and couple's therapists, nobody talked about violence. I mean,
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Speaker 5: if you think about it, the child abuse laws only
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Speaker 5: was created in the mid seventies. Where there were child
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Speaker 5: abuse laws, there weren't laws even about domestic violence, and.
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Speaker 4: So nobody really knew how to do this treatment at all,
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Speaker 4: including myself.
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Speaker 5: And I was a young clinician that was ferociously reading
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Speaker 5: and thinking, and I think a lot like you. I mean,
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Speaker 5: I'm not saying you're a young clinician, but like you
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Speaker 5: were saying you developed this podcast because you wanted to.
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Speaker 4: Get more information.
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Speaker 5: Well, back those in the seventies, we didn't have internet,
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Speaker 5: we didn't have anything, and so I just went around
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Speaker 5: reading and talking to as many.
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Speaker 4: Coinditions as possible.
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Speaker 5: And basically, back then, nobody talked about violence.
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Speaker 4: I could not learn, I couldn't get information. There weren't
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Speaker 4: books written.
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Speaker 5: I mean, somebody told me it was I don't know
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Speaker 5: if it's true that one of my first book that
9:17
Speaker 5: Terry and I wrote in eighty four was one of
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Speaker 5: the first books there ever was written on incest and
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Speaker 5: child sexual abuse.
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Speaker 4: So basically what I did is I was a young clinician.
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Speaker 5: I was working with the Department of Children and Family
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Speaker 5: Services on a contract for child abuse and the GLAD cases,
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Speaker 5: and I started asking the clients what was helpful. I
9:44
Speaker 5: basically said, look, what is most helpful to you when
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Speaker 5: I come into your homes? Because I was doing home
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Speaker 5: visits on these and it was all this trauma, I mean,
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Speaker 5: parents that.
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Speaker 4: Were abused, children that were abused, and.
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Speaker 5: I started asking them what could I do that would
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Speaker 5: be most helpful and.
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Speaker 4: Really started collaborating with them and.
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Speaker 5: Started developing my ideas of what was the most helpful
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Speaker 5: treatment for interpersonal violence. And by the eighty nine when
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Speaker 5: we wrote or ninety when we wrote the next book,
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Speaker 5: I mean we had written a lot of articles. By then,
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Speaker 5: I was really developing a model. And the model is
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Speaker 5: what I call this is a meta model. The model
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Speaker 5: I use is the collaborative change model, and it basically
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Speaker 5: is saying, there are if you look at all good
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Speaker 5: treatment of trauma.
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Speaker 4: Now all of it you know, and now.
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Speaker 5: We have so much right because we know so much
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Speaker 5: about the neuroscience, and we know about the body and
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Speaker 5: the integration. All good models of treatment have about the
11:02
Speaker 5: same essential important elements and they all work. But the
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Speaker 5: reason we haven't found one that works is because each person,
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Speaker 5: each person client, each person in the world has their
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Speaker 5: own natural resources of how they change.
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Speaker 4: No two people change and grow the same.
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Speaker 5: So saying all that, that's why this quote is, you know,
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Speaker 5: is so important. I mean, then that's going back to
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Speaker 5: you know, let me just read it again. The range
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Speaker 5: of what we think can do.
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Speaker 4: Okay, So that's us as clinicians. The range and.
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Speaker 5: What we think can do is limited by what we
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Speaker 5: fail to notice and what I think so many clinicians
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Speaker 5: fail to notice is.
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Speaker 4: How our clients change.
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Speaker 5: We come in with our models and say, oh, this
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Speaker 5: is how change happens. But we're failing to notice the energy,
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Speaker 5: the concepts, the resources of our clients and their community.
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Speaker 4: So we don't.
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Speaker 5: Notice how they change because we failed to notice that,
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Speaker 5: and we.
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Speaker 4: Failed to notice that we're noticing it that.
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Speaker 5: There's little we can do to change until we notice
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Speaker 5: how we have to.
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Speaker 4: Be noticing what's going on inside of me.
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Speaker 5: What are my resources, what are my clients resources, what
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Speaker 5: are my vulnerabilities, what are my client's vulnerabilities, and how
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Speaker 5: are we going to collaborate to make that change?
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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's that's great.
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Speaker 3: So you know, you're talking about failing to notice how
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Speaker 3: our clients change, but even kind of beyond that, failing
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Speaker 3: to notice that we're noticing and even you know, developing
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Speaker 3: that awareness to notice in the first place is all,
12:49
Speaker 3: uh the work that goes on in being a trauma therapist.
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Speaker 3: I mean that is that is profound, profound information. Thank
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Speaker 3: you so much. And I I kind of get the
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Speaker 3: feeling that we're definitely bordering on the area of what
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Speaker 3: got you into this field in the first place.
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Speaker 2: So let's take it there. You know, This is about
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Speaker 2: highlighting your.
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Speaker 3: Journey to become a master trauma therapist. People get into
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Speaker 3: this field for a lot of a lot of different reasons.
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Speaker 3: You know, before we started recording today, Mary Joe, you
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Speaker 3: asked me why I was doing this. You want me
13:24
Speaker 3: to tell you about the podcast, And part of the
13:26
Speaker 3: reason is, you know, my brother was in the Special Forces.
13:30
Speaker 3: When he came back from Iraq, he had PTSD and
13:34
Speaker 3: I was so excited to talk to him and ask
13:36
Speaker 3: I was asking him about his experiences and he didn't
13:40
Speaker 3: want to tell me, and I didn't know what to do.
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Speaker 3: I got offended, you know what is going on, and
13:46
Speaker 3: I just did every the wrong things, you know, every
13:49
Speaker 3: everything I checked off, every box, every mistake, really screwing
13:56
Speaker 3: it up.
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Speaker 2: You know, for me, I really want to come back
13:58
Speaker 2: and help.
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Speaker 3: So break down first, tell us a story about what
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Speaker 3: led you into this specialization of trauma.
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Speaker 5: Well, first of all, thank your brother for what he's done.
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Speaker 5: I just wanted to say that for being there for
14:19
Speaker 5: us and for you trying so hard to connect. I mean,
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Speaker 5: you know that working with PTSD is also and particularly
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Speaker 5: with the warriors that came back, is something that's really
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Speaker 5: dear to my heart, so.
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Speaker 4: Maybe we can even talk a little bit about that
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Speaker 4: at some point. For me, my story is not so
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Speaker 4: it's probably not as dramatic as yours. I think.
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Speaker 2: For me.
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Speaker 5: It's almost a mystery in that I was at a
14:55
Speaker 5: place at a time in undergraduate school where I I
15:00
Speaker 5: met a woman who had wanted to start parents anonymous
15:05
Speaker 5: in Chicago, and I was simply at this the right
15:09
Speaker 5: place at the right time.
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Speaker 4: Now, my mom comes from a.
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Speaker 5: Trauma in her family, and at some point one person
15:20
Speaker 5: said to me along the road, where did when did
15:22
Speaker 5: you know that this is where you were going to
15:26
Speaker 5: be committed to? And I said, I think I.
15:28
Speaker 4: Figured it out in the womb.
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Speaker 5: Because my mother really struggled with trying to put and
15:34
Speaker 5: she was a great example.
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Speaker 4: Of somebody who came from a history of trauma.
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Speaker 5: Who really harnessed her resources herself because there was no
15:43
Speaker 5: other way to do it. And I kind of grew
15:46
Speaker 5: up in this home watching my mother harness her resources,
15:50
Speaker 5: you know, harness what she needed to he's trying to
15:54
Speaker 5: change into heal. I don't think I knew I watched
15:57
Speaker 5: it until down the road, but I think it was
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Speaker 5: noticing what she did with.
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Speaker 4: Her own narrative.
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Speaker 5: And then and so when I was in college and
16:08
Speaker 5: met this other woman who had also had trauma in
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Speaker 5: her life and in her personal violence, and when she
16:20
Speaker 5: I became a volunteer and started working at Parents Anonymous,
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Speaker 5: and it was so natural to me to be able
16:29
Speaker 5: to understand the narrative and also to not think I
16:37
Speaker 5: could do it myself without this collaboration.
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Speaker 4: You know, I just became you know, I think from
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Speaker 4: growing up in my home.
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Speaker 5: And observing and became aware of what the other person
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Speaker 5: was saying in meeting.
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Speaker 4: So it was literally meeting by chance.
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Speaker 5: The Margaret Morrison who started Parents Anonymous in Chicago, and
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Speaker 5: I spent every living second with her and volunteering at
17:14
Speaker 5: Parents Anonymous, and decided to go to graduate school.
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Speaker 4: And then I've done.
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Speaker 5: Nothing else but work in her personal violence and trauma,
17:23
Speaker 5: complex trauma and PTSD since then.
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Speaker 3: So you talk about kind of being in the right place,
17:29
Speaker 3: it's the right time. You know, in under graduate school
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Speaker 3: you met this woman who was starting Parents Anonymous and
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Speaker 3: also the confluence of events of noticing what your mother
17:39
Speaker 3: was going through or how she was working through her
17:42
Speaker 3: own trauma.
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Speaker 2: I mean, in addition to that, why do you think
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Speaker 2: you were drawn to it.
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Speaker 3: I mean, why why did that the struggles going on
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Speaker 3: the subject, what about that kind of drew you in?
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Speaker 5: Well, I think, you know, I think it was those
18:06
Speaker 5: two things being in the right place at the right time,
18:08
Speaker 5: and you know.
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Speaker 4: The other pieces.
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Speaker 5: Guy, I became like on any of us, I think
18:15
Speaker 5: we get drawn. I mean, you know, we could do
18:19
Speaker 5: my whole. I mean, I happen to be a family therapist.
18:22
Speaker 5: So my thing is I think it's birth order. I
18:24
Speaker 5: think that contributes so to me. There's so many things
18:28
Speaker 5: that contribute to it, because because I don't see the
18:30
Speaker 5: world linearly, right, I think there's so many pieces that
18:34
Speaker 5: contribute to it.
18:35
Speaker 4: That you know, I was the.
18:37
Speaker 5: Youngest I was. I observed my family by being the youngest.
18:43
Speaker 5: I'm I'm an extrovert. I like being in relationship people.
18:50
Speaker 5: And the thing is is that because I you know,
18:56
Speaker 5: when I'd made the decision to go to social work school,
18:58
Speaker 5: I mean, uh and then do postgraduate. You know, bottom
19:03
Speaker 5: line is what I was good at, you know, so
19:08
Speaker 5: then the good the question is, well, why am I
19:10
Speaker 5: good at it?
19:10
Speaker 4: And I think I'm good at it is because.
19:13
Speaker 5: I really got this concept of listening to what people
19:19
Speaker 5: said of how they.
19:21
Speaker 4: Chould and and that's you know, I think that.
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Speaker 5: So I was called you know, I'm not good at
19:30
Speaker 5: it working with everybody, you know, I'm I'm I'm really,
19:35
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm really good at working with people who.
19:38
Speaker 4: Are who have been traumatized.
19:41
Speaker 5: And because I think there's some element of when you're
19:45
Speaker 5: a survivor of trauma, you develop you in order to
19:49
Speaker 5: survive trauma.
19:51
Speaker 4: You developed resources.
19:53
Speaker 5: I mean, everybody that has survived abuse and neglect and
19:58
Speaker 5: trauma and war, they developed resources.
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Speaker 4: To survive, right. And I just think.
20:05
Speaker 5: That that I developed my own resources as being the
20:12
Speaker 5: youngest in a family where you know, I had a
20:15
Speaker 5: mom that was a survivor, and so I developed my resources.
20:19
Speaker 5: And my resources are just a really great fit with
20:23
Speaker 5: people's resources that have been abused and neglected and have
20:30
Speaker 5: complex traumas.
20:32
Speaker 3: Great o, Great, Thanks so much for taking the time
20:35
Speaker 3: to explain that.
20:36
Speaker 2: Marria Joe.
20:37
Speaker 3: Your passion is just coming out and it's great. I
20:41
Speaker 3: really I'm glad that you share that with us. So
20:45
Speaker 3: let's talk a little bit. You know, we've talked a
20:47
Speaker 3: little bit about your journey what led you to the
20:50
Speaker 3: specialization of this field. Now let's focus on an early
20:54
Speaker 3: clinical error and what you learned from that. Tell us
20:57
Speaker 3: a story about an early clinical area you made that's
21:02
Speaker 3: had a significant impact on the work you do, and
21:06
Speaker 3: what you learned from that.
21:08
Speaker 5: Well, I can tell you it's the same clinical ayer
21:11
Speaker 5: I make now. Now there are time make clinical lawyers
21:15
Speaker 5: all the time. And what's the biggest clinical oyer I
21:22
Speaker 5: made at the beginning as well as I make it now?
21:26
Speaker 5: And I can tell you a story, but we'll just
21:27
Speaker 5: first sum it up. Is the pacing going too fast?
21:34
Speaker 5: And and again it goes back to my quote, not
21:38
Speaker 5: noticing that, not noticing that I'm not following the pace.
21:47
Speaker 4: Of my of the people I'm working with.
21:49
Speaker 5: When I was young, The what motivated the what I
21:55
Speaker 5: paced too fast is there was all this I want
21:57
Speaker 5: people to change. I want people to change. I got
21:59
Speaker 5: to hear story, you know, I was. You know, how
22:03
Speaker 5: do I get them to tell me their narrative? How
22:05
Speaker 5: do I create safety fast enough? You know, I had
22:08
Speaker 5: these belief systems, like I followed these models. You know,
22:13
Speaker 5: I could go in and I mean story after story
22:16
Speaker 5: of you know, I'd learned a particular intervention, I'd learn
22:19
Speaker 5: a model of cognitive behavioral therapy. Or family systems therapy,
22:23
Speaker 5: and I would go in and try to do the intervention.
22:26
Speaker 4: I you know, I would do things to the clients.
22:31
Speaker 5: Right, I was in this position of power, even as
22:35
Speaker 5: a young clinician, where I'd have all these great ideas
22:37
Speaker 5: and all this enthusiasm, and I'd go in and try
22:41
Speaker 5: to make change too fast, or I'd try to get
22:44
Speaker 5: them to the other story, or I'd assume safety when
22:46
Speaker 5: safety wasn't there. And now it's the same mistake. Now
22:53
Speaker 5: with mistake is some kind of arrogance of well, now
22:57
Speaker 5: I'm a big expert, so I can come in and
23:00
Speaker 5: you're gonna just listen to me, and I'm gonna say, well,
23:02
Speaker 5: this is what we're gonna do, or here's my idea,
23:04
Speaker 5: or let's try this, or let's do this. And because
23:07
Speaker 5: I'm an expert and you know what done that. The
23:12
Speaker 5: pace has to be the pace of the clients. It's
23:17
Speaker 5: not my agenda. It's not my pace. Doesn't matter how
23:21
Speaker 5: fabulous my intervention is, how great I know my model, it's.
23:26
Speaker 4: It's not about that.
23:27
Speaker 5: It's about really forming that safety through collaboration.
23:32
Speaker 2: Okay, that's that's perfect. You talked. You mentioned a story.
23:36
Speaker 2: Let let us hear that story.
23:39
Speaker 4: Well, you know, my very experience first client was my
23:46
Speaker 4: very first client.
23:48
Speaker 5: And I and I've written lots of articles about them.
23:51
Speaker 5: They're disguised in many ways, but I but I have
23:56
Speaker 5: lots of articles that I.
23:57
Speaker 4: Wrote about them.
23:58
Speaker 5: Was Chicago Pool, who had physically abused his wife and
24:05
Speaker 5: sexually abused his daughter. He suffered greatly from PTSD. He
24:12
Speaker 5: had also been had served in Vietnam. And so this
24:21
Speaker 5: was my very first client out.
24:22
Speaker 4: Of graduate school.
24:24
Speaker 5: And I did home visits and I basically so A
24:30
Speaker 5: couple of the mistakes is I went in and assumed
24:32
Speaker 5: that the mother, once she discovered that her child had
24:36
Speaker 5: been sexually abused, that she would want to get out
24:38
Speaker 5: of the marriage. And I didn't have any consideration of
24:44
Speaker 5: her own trauma or the offender's trauma. And I literally
24:51
Speaker 5: started with the assumption, Okay, I have to boost this woman.
24:56
Speaker 4: I have to you know, she's going to get out
24:58
Speaker 4: of this marriage. I have to help her, you know,
25:00
Speaker 4: look at her own not forgot I mean there's another mistake.
25:04
Speaker 5: I didn't even think about her as a trauma survivor,
25:07
Speaker 5: just that she had this child who had been sexually
25:10
Speaker 5: abused and a son that had been physical and so
25:14
Speaker 5: I literally went in and started working with her on
25:18
Speaker 5: how to parent, working with these kids. And meanwhile, when
25:24
Speaker 5: her husband got out of jail, she started seeing him
25:28
Speaker 5: but didn't tell me because I was I would have
25:31
Speaker 5: had judgment about it. And the only way I found
25:36
Speaker 5: out that she had started seeing him and having involved
25:38
Speaker 5: is that the sixteen year old girl ran away. And
25:43
Speaker 5: when she ran away, they told me that she had
25:45
Speaker 5: been being allowing to see the father.
25:50
Speaker 4: And you know, I was enraged.
25:53
Speaker 5: I was, you know, the Department Children Family Service, we
25:57
Speaker 5: were shaming and blaming and judging this mother, and no
26:03
Speaker 5: one saw her as a trauma survivor and understood in
26:08
Speaker 5: context why she would see him, you know, did not
26:11
Speaker 5: even understand his own abuse as as part of being
26:15
Speaker 5: in five flight er freeze, you know. And so all
26:18
Speaker 5: the family was in a trauma sty the daughter, the
26:22
Speaker 5: son that he had been abused, the daughter had been
26:23
Speaker 5: sexually abused, the mother, the father who was the offender.
26:28
Speaker 4: Everybody was in five flighter frieze. And I didn't.
26:31
Speaker 5: Recognize it, and I didn't create a context around that
26:36
Speaker 5: so that they would share it with me.
26:42
Speaker 2: Makes sense, It made it makes total sense.
26:45
Speaker 3: I just really, you know, appreciate how candid your being
26:51
Speaker 3: about your experience, and you know, I'm sure our listeners
26:54
Speaker 3: are hearing that as well. Just and again, what another
26:59
Speaker 3: theme that keeps Mary Joe, and I'm sure you're familiar
27:01
Speaker 3: with this is this, you know, the kind of what
27:03
Speaker 3: I like to call the myth of the model that
27:06
Speaker 3: you know, we go out there and we learn these
27:08
Speaker 3: interventions for all the right reasons, and then it's almost
27:11
Speaker 3: like we come back to the office and kind of
27:15
Speaker 3: feel the need to implement them, you know, where we
27:19
Speaker 3: have this suitcase filled with our tools that we bring
27:22
Speaker 3: in and were always trying to utilize them and implement them.
27:28
Speaker 3: But what I hear you saying is the exact opposite.
27:32
Speaker 3: We have to wait for the opportune time, wait for
27:34
Speaker 3: the right time, listen and notice how our.
27:38
Speaker 2: Clients are changing. And that's just so powerful.
27:43
Speaker 5: I like how you call the myth of the model.
27:47
Speaker 5: I've never I've never said language, but I love it.
27:49
Speaker 5: So I'm going to use it from now on, guy,
27:52
Speaker 5: and I will cite you, Okay, literally what what I
27:58
Speaker 5: wouldn't That's sort of what the new book is about.
28:02
Speaker 5: It's not about, uh calling it a myth that the model.
28:06
Speaker 5: All these models work. They all work.
28:10
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, DVT is an important.
28:13
Speaker 5: To Dialectical behavior therapy is really important in trauma. Cognitive
28:17
Speaker 5: behavior is trade is important, integrating the mind and the
28:20
Speaker 5: body through whether it's sensory experiencing mindfulness, yoga, neural feedback
28:30
Speaker 5: means at my center or the Center for Contential.
28:32
Speaker 4: Change, we utilize all of that. You know, we have
28:35
Speaker 4: a yoga.
28:35
Speaker 5: Room, we have We've done neural feedback, I have cognitive
28:40
Speaker 5: behavioral therapy, family therapist.
28:42
Speaker 4: That's what you want to do, is how The.
28:46
Speaker 5: Model that I write about, the collaborative change model is
28:49
Speaker 5: a metama. It's basically saying, how do you integrate all
28:55
Speaker 5: the different models for change that we know work integrated
29:01
Speaker 5: and with the client decide, oh.
29:04
Speaker 4: Should we be doing some cognitive behavioral therapy?
29:07
Speaker 5: Would it be helpful if you learn some skills through DBT.
29:13
Speaker 5: You know, when when do you introduce m d R?
29:17
Speaker 5: Are you going to use the MDR? Who doesn't make
29:19
Speaker 5: the most sense to use the MDR. So basically, the
29:23
Speaker 5: collaborative change model is an organizational model that sort of says,
29:29
Speaker 5: this is the process that you go through to figure
29:36
Speaker 5: out the pacing and the organization.
29:41
Speaker 2: Nice.
29:42
Speaker 3: Nice, all right, So let's get to one of my
29:45
Speaker 3: favorite questions. You know, we talked about some of the
29:47
Speaker 3: challenges of the specialization.
29:50
Speaker 2: I believe it's.
29:51
Speaker 3: Important that we know why we're doing something. You know,
29:54
Speaker 3: the answer to that truly drives us along in our
29:57
Speaker 3: lives and in our work. Now, this is a little
29:59
Speaker 3: different then the question about what got you here in
30:02
Speaker 3: the first place?
30:02
Speaker 2: What led you here? But why are you in this field?
30:06
Speaker 2: What keeps you going day to day? What married you?
30:10
Speaker 2: What's your why for this? Well?
30:13
Speaker 5: I think.
30:16
Speaker 4: I think money. Why is two things?
30:19
Speaker 5: Give? I mean, one is my personal why is that?
30:28
Speaker 5: I really believe I happen to. I really life change.
30:34
Speaker 5: I mean I like to. I get excited by seeing,
30:41
Speaker 5: by experience. I mean even just like yours and my
30:43
Speaker 5: energy exchange here. You know when you said my my
30:47
Speaker 5: excitement and my enthusiasm and my passion, you can feel it, right,
30:52
Speaker 5: And then I can. Then I can feel your excitement
30:57
Speaker 5: and your passion and your curiosity.
30:59
Speaker 4: And I mean I my why.
31:03
Speaker 5: Is relationships are really important to me. That's the That's
31:08
Speaker 5: the most I mean, And I'm not saying there you
31:10
Speaker 5: don't have to be important to everybody or you know
31:14
Speaker 5: that that this is exciting work for me. I mean,
31:18
Speaker 5: I just feel like I was born to do this.
31:21
Speaker 5: I don't really question it very much. I just this
31:26
Speaker 5: is how my brain was wired, you know. And like
31:29
Speaker 5: I said, there's lots of variable. So my why is
31:32
Speaker 5: it's very rewarding.
31:34
Speaker 4: It is rewarding.
31:35
Speaker 5: I get a lot out of watching and experiencing it
31:39
Speaker 5: being the part of change, just like everybody has there.
31:42
Speaker 4: You know, if you're if you're.
31:43
Speaker 5: Born to be an artist and you create a beautiful
31:46
Speaker 5: piece of art, you're gonna you know, you're gonna get
31:49
Speaker 5: the dopamine rush, You're gonna get the adrenaline from what
31:54
Speaker 5: you were put on this earth to do. And you know,
31:58
Speaker 5: why do any of us do any And so that's
32:01
Speaker 5: for me, it's creative, it's very sacred.
32:05
Speaker 4: It's and now that I really.
32:09
Speaker 5: And I have a lot of success, you know, listen,
32:13
Speaker 5: that's that's reinforcing. You know, I have a lot of success.
32:18
Speaker 4: I meet great people. I love to teach. So it
32:21
Speaker 4: just fits the skills I was brought into the universe with.
32:26
Speaker 3: Well, you said you would give me two wise, you
32:28
Speaker 3: gave me several wise Mary Joe, But again, yeah.
32:32
Speaker 2: I mean, this is why I'm doing this.
32:34
Speaker 3: I get to talk to people like you who are
32:36
Speaker 3: just so passionate about what they're doing. And I am
32:40
Speaker 3: so confident that our listeners can hear that as well.
32:43
Speaker 3: It's just coming through. You know, relationships are so important.
32:47
Speaker 3: You're born to do this, and it's just so evident
32:52
Speaker 3: from not only what you're saying, but the way you're
32:55
Speaker 3: saying it.
32:57
Speaker 5: You know, I just thought of something guy, you know,
33:00
Speaker 5: and in the research we've done, when we've literally asked
33:04
Speaker 5: thousands probably of clients survivors who have said they felt
33:11
Speaker 5: like they had successful treatment, and you know, there's it's
33:15
Speaker 5: interesting because I was just thinking about the five things
33:18
Speaker 5: they tell us help that has helped them change are
33:23
Speaker 5: the five things the exact same five things that keep
33:26
Speaker 5: me in the field. Which I never really thought of
33:29
Speaker 5: that until now, though maybe I have because I wrote
33:34
Speaker 5: an article about the spiritual quest for treating trauma and that,
33:41
Speaker 5: you know, I think that one of the things that
33:45
Speaker 5: I realized is that five things that help people change
33:49
Speaker 5: are the five things that also help all of us heal,
33:54
Speaker 5: which is so if we're really also talking about being
33:57
Speaker 5: able to stay in the field. Another mistake I think
33:59
Speaker 5: client that therapists make. My other second mistake besides pacing,
34:04
Speaker 5: is that they don't take good enough care of themselves
34:07
Speaker 5: on a physical, spiritual, emotional, intellectual, and sexual love that
34:14
Speaker 5: the clinicians I found do not take really good care
34:17
Speaker 5: of themselves, you know so, I sort of treat my
34:23
Speaker 5: life and my work like it's a you know, a
34:26
Speaker 5: day a day in the SPA every day, you know that.
34:29
Speaker 5: I make sure there's time for exercise, make sure there's
34:32
Speaker 5: time for meditation or prayer, make sure there's time for
34:36
Speaker 5: really healthy eating, make time, you know, make time for
34:41
Speaker 5: things that are not part of trauma, you know so,
34:45
Speaker 5: and those are all the five things that the clients
34:48
Speaker 5: told us thing needed to heal.
34:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, so much, so much great information, Mary Joe. I mean,
34:53
Speaker 3: I just want our listeners to hear this, you know,
34:56
Speaker 3: coming from someone who's been in this field for so long,
34:59
Speaker 3: who's having a lot of sas, who's so passionate and
35:03
Speaker 3: just enumerting all these necessary things. And this is going
35:07
Speaker 3: to lead perfectly into the next topic. Before we do,
35:10
Speaker 3: I just want to say that I would love to
35:13
Speaker 3: link up to that article you're talking about about the
35:16
Speaker 3: spiritual quest of working with trauma client. So hopefully we
35:20
Speaker 3: can get that up there at the show notes page,
35:23
Speaker 3: which is West Coast Trauma Project dot com. Click on
35:27
Speaker 3: the podcast tab and Mary Joe's episode will come right up.
35:32
Speaker 3: But let's move into the next topic, which is advice.
35:37
Speaker 3: You know, many of our listeners are just getting into
35:39
Speaker 3: this field, some have more experience.
35:42
Speaker 2: You've been honing your skills for.
35:43
Speaker 3: A while, marriage, Jill, what advice would you give to
35:47
Speaker 3: someone just entering into the specialization.
35:50
Speaker 2: And I know for the last you know, twenty to.
35:53
Speaker 3: Thirty minutes, so you've been dropping a lot of great information,
35:57
Speaker 3: but get more specific, maybe more direct about what advice
35:59
Speaker 3: you would would offer.
36:04
Speaker 5: Two pieces of I keep saying too and then give
36:06
Speaker 5: you more, but UH.
36:10
Speaker 4: One is to not get wed to one model.
36:17
Speaker 5: UH, to hone your skills by by learning about lots
36:24
Speaker 5: of different models and then find one or two that
36:27
Speaker 5: really fit your style right so that because then you're
36:32
Speaker 5: going to be better at it.
36:34
Speaker 4: So you know, if if if.
36:35
Speaker 5: Cognitive behavior really resonates with you, then that then then
36:41
Speaker 5: really go and get more advanced training in cognitive.
36:44
Speaker 4: Behavioral therapy or DBT.
36:46
Speaker 5: If it's just something that you go, wow, that fits
36:49
Speaker 5: with me. So for me, for example, I because I'm
36:53
Speaker 5: so related, because I have a ton of energy, and
36:57
Speaker 5: because I like all sorts to watch change happen right
37:02
Speaker 5: in front of me.
37:03
Speaker 4: I mean, these are things I know about.
37:04
Speaker 5: Myself, tons of energy, love relationships, love to exceed, the
37:10
Speaker 5: change happens, it's reinforcing. So what does that mean? I'm
37:15
Speaker 5: going to go and be a family and marital therapist
37:18
Speaker 5: and couple therapists, you know, so I can work on communication. Now,
37:22
Speaker 5: that doesn't mean I don't integrate mindfulness. Start every one
37:26
Speaker 5: of my sessions with my client's mindfulness, teach my client's mindfulness,
37:31
Speaker 5: have them doing meditation. Doesn't mean I don't use kind
37:34
Speaker 5: of behavior. I use communication skills and you know, cognitive
37:38
Speaker 5: behavioral skills.
37:40
Speaker 4: But where I got most of my energy and trainings
37:44
Speaker 4: in family and couple. So that was one piece.
37:46
Speaker 5: It's like again going back to that quote, knowing yourself,
37:51
Speaker 5: knowing where your talent is, knowing your resources, and really
37:57
Speaker 5: using that to be your training, to get most of
38:01
Speaker 5: your training, to be your pivotal and know that that
38:05
Speaker 5: model in and of itself is not going to work
38:07
Speaker 5: for everybody, and it's not You're going to have to
38:09
Speaker 5: integrate other times.
38:12
Speaker 4: So that's one piece. My other piece is self care
38:17
Speaker 4: in terms of compassionality.
38:19
Speaker 5: You know, to be able to realize that what change is,
38:26
Speaker 5: it's an energy exchange between clinician and clients. That means
38:32
Speaker 5: they need your energy, your intellectual energy, your emotional energy,
38:38
Speaker 5: your spiritual energy to be able to change, and your
38:42
Speaker 5: physical energy.
38:42
Speaker 4: In order to change.
38:43
Speaker 5: They need your ideas, your passion, your commitment, your creativity
38:50
Speaker 5: for them to change. Okay, Now, if they need your
38:54
Speaker 5: energy to be able to change, and that is the
38:57
Speaker 5: process so that they can access their our own resilience,
39:01
Speaker 5: their own vulnerabilities, their own resources, then where are you
39:06
Speaker 5: keeping your well filled? You know, it's not a spring.
39:11
Speaker 5: It doesn't Energy doesn't generate itself. Human energy does not
39:16
Speaker 5: generate by itself. You have to contribute into your resource body.
39:23
Speaker 4: You have to contribute.
39:24
Speaker 5: And so what happens in the field so much is
39:27
Speaker 5: that we give out this energy passionately and compassionately to
39:32
Speaker 5: others in the.
39:34
Speaker 4: Sacred work to help them change.
39:37
Speaker 5: And we're giving it to them because that's what they
39:39
Speaker 5: need in order to change. And then we become depleted
39:44
Speaker 5: because at the beginning of therapy often It is not
39:50
Speaker 5: up to our clients to fill us up with energy.
39:52
Speaker 5: That's not their job. It's our job to fill ourselves
39:56
Speaker 5: up with energy. And that's the biggest mistake is that
40:00
Speaker 5: I don't think people talk about self care in this
40:04
Speaker 5: real like, oh, don't forget take care of yourself people.
40:08
Speaker 4: I think you need a model, not.
40:10
Speaker 5: Only a model of treatment, but a model of self care.
40:16
Speaker 1: Wow.
40:17
Speaker 2: Mary Joe, you're just laying it down today.
40:20
Speaker 3: I love it so much. Great information. This is phenomenal.
40:25
Speaker 3: You know, don't get wedded to one model. I love
40:29
Speaker 3: that you know, hone your skills, learn, go out there
40:33
Speaker 3: and find something that works for you. Again, this theme
40:36
Speaker 3: that you've touched upon that keeps coming back again and
40:39
Speaker 3: again throughout this interview is you know, us as clinicians
40:45
Speaker 3: developing that awareness, that self awareness and taking care of
40:49
Speaker 3: ourselves so that we can kind of complete and re
40:54
Speaker 3: energize that circle of healing in a sense you know
40:59
Speaker 3: of which are clients are apart And that is so powerful.
41:03
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for sharing that. So can you
41:08
Speaker 3: recommend to go to books you know, trauma related or not,
41:12
Speaker 3: which have had a major impact on the work you do.
41:16
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, okay, So I know, I thought about this
41:26
Speaker 5: so much. I to narrow it down to two is
41:30
Speaker 5: impossible for me. It's literally impossible, because I I read.
41:36
Speaker 4: I still read in the field all the time.
41:39
Speaker 5: And I mean, you know, currently I think any of
41:44
Speaker 5: Daniel Siegel's book on the Mindful Therapist on the Brain
41:51
Speaker 5: as having a huge and impact for me. You know,
41:55
Speaker 5: so I recommend any of Daniel Sieguls. I mean, Chris
41:59
Speaker 5: Gerty as work has always been has always resonated with me.
42:04
Speaker 4: You know, I care a lot about her as a.
42:06
Speaker 5: Human being, and so her work with respect to the
42:14
Speaker 5: incest particularly and complex trauma survivors. From an individual perspective,
42:21
Speaker 5: I really loved Charles Bigley's work. He's worked mostly with
42:28
Speaker 5: post traumatic stress and warriors, and he's written a great
42:33
Speaker 5: book on compassion fatigue.
42:36
Speaker 4: And I know this is I know this.
42:40
Speaker 5: Is going to sound really ridiculous or probably arrogant, and
42:45
Speaker 5: I'm aware of that, but I use my own book
42:49
Speaker 5: a lot, and I'll tell you why. I mean, just
42:52
Speaker 5: the other day and I just told this to some
42:54
Speaker 5: of my staff. You know, it's a really I wrote
42:57
Speaker 5: it very simply, and I was really struggling with a
43:01
Speaker 5: couple last week really struggling.
43:05
Speaker 4: I was moving way too fast.
43:07
Speaker 5: I wasn't unaware of watching the husband who was a traumaser.
43:12
Speaker 4: Both both are both.
43:14
Speaker 5: Severe have had a lot of complex trauma in their history.
43:18
Speaker 5: He was he's a warrior back from Iraq, and I
43:21
Speaker 5: wasn't watching what.
43:22
Speaker 4: Was going on with him. I wasn't watching his skin
43:26
Speaker 4: color changing.
43:27
Speaker 5: And I was just sort of like on my role,
43:29
Speaker 5: thinking this is really great, all this intervention when I'm
43:32
Speaker 5: giving them, and the kind.
43:34
Speaker 4: Of the session blew up in my face.
43:37
Speaker 5: And that night I came home and I was like,
43:41
Speaker 5: I was just distraught about the session because I care
43:44
Speaker 5: so much about the couple and I really knew I
43:47
Speaker 5: messed it up. And so I just picked up my
43:49
Speaker 5: own book and said, I'm going to just start reading
43:52
Speaker 5: and I'm going to figure out where my mistake was.
43:57
Speaker 5: And within like twenty twenty pages of my book again
44:00
Speaker 5: and I wrote the damn book. But within like twenty minutes,
44:05
Speaker 5: I went, Okay, there was my mistake.
44:07
Speaker 4: I see my mistake.
44:09
Speaker 5: And the following week when they came in, that was
44:12
Speaker 5: just this week they came back in and I said,
44:14
Speaker 5: you know what, let me tell you what I did.
44:16
Speaker 4: And that's this whole thing.
44:17
Speaker 5: Of transparency, which I think is really big, and I said,
44:20
Speaker 5: I was really upset with how I handled things last week.
44:24
Speaker 5: I don't know what I didn't know what I did,
44:27
Speaker 5: and I read my book and I think this is
44:30
Speaker 5: where my mistake was.
44:31
Speaker 4: And the husband turned to me and said, absolutely, that's
44:34
Speaker 4: exactly where you were saying.
44:36
Speaker 2: Wow.
44:37
Speaker 3: So you mentioned the word transparency, which I think is
44:43
Speaker 3: a phenomenal word, and I think you've been so transparent
44:45
Speaker 3: during this whole interview.
44:48
Speaker 2: I want to come back to that.
44:49
Speaker 3: But you mentioned Daniel Siegel's books, Chris Courtois, who actually
44:53
Speaker 3: has agreed to be on this podcast.
44:55
Speaker 2: Oh good, and Charles Figley.
44:57
Speaker 3: Of course, we'll have links to all those book on
45:00
Speaker 3: the show hottest page, and of course your book as well.
45:06
Speaker 3: Mary Joe, you've been phenomenal. I mean, I love talking
45:09
Speaker 3: to you. You've just been so open and I love
45:14
Speaker 3: the way you just share this.
45:18
Speaker 2: Process for you. You know the.
45:19
Speaker 3: Mistakes you made, the victories you have, and I think
45:23
Speaker 3: that sensibility is so helpful for all of us, for
45:28
Speaker 3: all these listeners. I want to thank you so much
45:31
Speaker 3: for taking the time to do this.
45:33
Speaker 5: Well, thank you guy for thinking to do this I
45:39
Speaker 5: got as much out of talking to you as hopefully
45:43
Speaker 5: your listeners got from hearing me.
45:45
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much and we will talk soon.
45:49
Speaker 4: Okay, great, thank you.
46:07
Speaker 1: Mativation common s