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Jac Marino Chen: ‘Ensnared’ - Overcoming The Darkness Of New Age And Occult · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:02
  Welcome to Worldview Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events, defending biblical Christianity. No topic, off limits. And now, here's your host, David Fiorazzo.
• 0:20
  Friends, family in Christ, welcome to another episode. We cover so many different topics here. Very important for the body of Christ and for Christians. Discernment, again, is the word of the year, I think, for 2026. But we're just so thankful that you tune in, that you share the podcast. I've got one of my favorite sisters back with us, Jack Marino Chen.
• 0:41
  She's got a brand new book out. It just came out yesterday, but I happen to have a copy right in my hand. She was saved by Jesus out of a past that included abuse, addiction, New Age practices, the occult,
• 0:57
  ritual magic, deep depravity, and she's passionate now about exposing the darkness that she formerly pursued while pointing to freedom through faith in Jesus Christ. And when she's not serving at church or doing a cult outreach on her YouTube channel, you can find Jack writing worship music with her husband under the name Jack and Josh Music, and her website is jackmarino.com.
• 1:25
  Jack, so good to have you back with us. Congratulations on the brand new book. It's so exciting. And thank you so much for having me. It is truly always a joy when I get to talk to you. I am so encouraged by the ways the Lord uses you.
• 1:39
  Well, the pleasure is mostly mine because I've seen you grow just in the past several years since I've gotten to know you from the Midwest out to the West Coast. That's funny. But it's so great to have you on and talk about your new books. Last time we did a podcast, we did talk about some other issues, what was going on in the country, maybe with our youth and...
• 2:01
  the lure into the occult and witchcraft a little bit. We touched on the book that you were finishing up and that was coming out, but now we actually have it. I've got some specific questions about the book. I want to ask you, you know,
• 2:16
  A growing number. I've been saying this since the Harry Potter brand in the 1990s. What was it? Harry Potter. And then there that blew up and Twilight and all this fascination with death and witchcraft and zombies and all this wicked stuff. But a lot of Americans, not a lot, but more Americans are people.
• 2:37
  Dabbling, you might want to say practicing witchcraft or the occult. And there's just some things people do. Tarot card readings, Ouija boards, astrology. They visit psychics. I'm not going to say why the fascination because I know this is a spiritual battle.
• 2:57
  But give your overview before we dive into the book of why you think this is. It wasn't like this 50 years ago, and now maybe more youth especially are getting into this stuff. And I know you have a very unique story that we'll get to in a minute. Go ahead.
• 3:13
  Yeah, such a good question. It's so sad to me how talking about these things from alien abduction to witchcraft to crystals, tarot, those kind of things were maybe not taboo, but definitely not normal. Even just 10 years ago, it seems like. But now with TikTok, with social media, with seeing Wicca and these practices being so...
• 3:37
  You're so accessible, so glamorized, so glorified and so attractive, especially to the younger generation. Of course, we know spiritually we're lured away and enticed by our own lusts, our own desires, and in our pride, we have this fallen nature that wants to be like God and be autonomous and be authoritative over our own lives. And so things like crystals to the lie that we can heal ourselves or attract whatever we want into our life, the law of attraction.
• 4:03
  tarot cards promising we can know the past, present and future, witchcraft, putting the wand in your hand to cast spells. It's very alluring to this pride in us that desires those things. But I would say, you know, again, I'm just seeing it's so accessible now. It's so normal. It's not that weird anymore. And so I think a lot of people are able to make that jump faster, tragically.
• 4:30
  So I asked the question saying more Americans are getting into this, but what about the church? What about Christians? Because you warn Christians to steer clear of any and all of these things. I mean, there's warnings in the Old Testament about witchcraft and being a medium and all these different things. Why do you think even in the church that people can get sucked into this?
• 4:55
  Yes. Well, I believe it's three in 10 Americans practice these occult practices like tarot reading, going to psychics, going to tarot readers, those kind of things. But when it comes to the church, at least in my experience, and I would say I see that because these things are so normal now,
• 5:12
  And people do, I mean, yoga is very, very normal. You go to your run-of-the-mill gym and they're offering yoga classes and then getting into breath work and they'll maybe have crystals around. And it's just kind of all around us at this point. So it almost seems wild or really weird to speak out about crystals or yoga or even at this point.
• 5:37
  divination because so many people read their astrology charts their horoscopes so many more people are getting into oracle cards or tarot cards or psychics aren't just that creepy little house or shop in the middle of nowhere they're they're almost everywhere you go and they seem not spooky but very accessible and so i think as a church
• 5:58
  when things we're just surrounded by it so much, which we see in culture as well with other sins, we become desensitized to it to where it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. And it almost seems weird to speak out about it. So we're silenced or we, I know I struggle with maybe cowardice and being afraid to speak out about it. And so it just kind of creeps in.
• 6:18
  There seems to be also growing curiosity, even for those that know what the Bible teaches and know it's wrong or know that we shouldn't. There's a curiosity factor because there is some demonic stuff going on, the spirituality behind it. I think that's what interests Christians. And we've talked about this on past programs, but in your book—
• 6:39
  Well, before we get to that, there's a couple things I wanted to ask you, words that you used. You said you longed for secret knowledge and control, and you embraced the idea that you could access God and ascend and clear energy blockages in yourself. Now, that sounds like Scientology or the Scientologist, you know, some of the stuff that they do. Yeah.
• 7:06
  So some of those ideas that maybe Christians are going, wow, secret knowledge, ascend, accessing God by ascending, or clearing energy blockages, just whatever one you'd like to tackle, or maybe all three.
• 7:21
  Yes. So when I think of ascension or awakening, that was just so alluring that, you know, we're these lower minded people and, you know, we're caught in the matrix of day to day life. But if we just would embrace this secret knowledge, then we would kind of be activated in a sense. And whether that means tapping into psychic abilities that the witchcraft and new age and occultism teaches is within you and it's your birthright and everyone has it. You just need to
• 7:49
  embrace it and find out this secret wisdom to unlock it. That's super attractive to us, honestly. And I think about how Satan presents the bait but hides the hook. And I believe it's Thomas Brooks says, he presents the golden cup, but hides the poison inside. And that's really what we're seeing here where
• 8:08
  it's presented really attractively. Hey, I have power inside myself to have whatever life I want. That sounds really good. Oh, I can be awakened to not just be, you know, living in my life now, but to have all this power, that's really enticing.
• 8:23
  And with crystals to think I can clear energy blockages in myself. So in my past coming from a childhood sexual abuse and then abusive romantic partners and just a lot of pain. My dad's drug and alcohol addiction. Hey, I don't actually need to submit to God and turn from my sin. Instead, I can turn to energy healing, crystals, to...
• 8:47
  align myself and to heal those broken parts of me. So Satan is crafty. He's the deceiver. Revelation 12, 9 talks about him being the deceiver and he's a liar. John 8, 44 says he's the father of lies. And so I just see that in this where these things are super enticing. They sound really good, but it's a deception and it actually is destructive. Yeah.
• 9:11
  That's very interesting, even the terminology, the energy blockages, the fact that Satan would deceive us into trying to fix that on our own. Because, I mean, whether you call it energy blockage or something else, just trauma from the past or abuse or something else in our lives, addiction, anything—
• 9:28
  that we can try to remove, right? Instead of turning over to God and just calling out to God for help. By the way, friends, I congratulated Jack on the book. Didn't give you the full title. It's ensnared.
• 9:44
  overcoming the darkness of the new age and occult with the light of God's truth. You can go to Jack Marino Chen website, jackmarino.com, or you can get it on Amazon and other places where the book is sold. I wasn't going to ask you this, but I came across this article just a couple days ago. I knew I was going to have you on.
• 10:06
  There's a famous TikTok tarot card reader finds Jesus, deletes all occult content. What was the name again? Alex Reads Tarot. Have you heard of this person? I have. Yes. So interesting story. Go ahead and share whatever your thoughts on that.
• 10:25
  Yes. It's just so encouraging to see. It's always amazing when you see, I mean, Jesus calls us to deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow him. And so to see someone publicly renounce a practice and deal with the backlash of that and the world hates Christ. I think of when he said that we're not going to, basically, we're not going to be treated better than him. And
• 10:48
  look at how he was treated. And so I see that in her experience where people really turned on her and we're seeing a lot of the things that Doreen Virtue experienced, you should give back the money you took then and just vicious. And that's really what we can expect from the world when we turn to Christ, because if we turn to, if she had turned to Buddha or just some other energy healing but didn't align with tarot, I think the world would embrace that a lot more than someone saying, look,
• 11:17
  Jesus Christ saved me. That's offensive because as Romans 1 talks about, people are suppressing the truth and unrighteousness about the one true God. So I'm praying for her. I think of the parable of the sower and I want her to bear fruit and to withstand all the different temptations of this life and persecution and all of it. But I was really encouraged. It's so beautiful when you see someone, Jesus too, work in someone's heart and for them to deny themselves and follow Christ.
• 11:46
  Amen. Amen. And it's another reminder, I think, Jack, that God can reach anybody. Yes. I mean, some people are really down these demonic paths, but no one is too far from the God of the universe who created that person that might not be living for them or rebelling against him. Anyway, I'm getting on my little soapbox here.
• 12:04
  So from the book, I want to I want to quote you and have you explain this idea. You said, I, too, wanted to find magic inside of me and use my mind to transmute darkness into light. What explain the concept and then how you thought you were able to do that?
• 12:26
  Yes. So much of the concept is the idea that magic isn't something outside of you. And it's almost in some senses, not even for the chosen. In some sense, they would say, you know, some have been chosen for these initiations or this school of thought or whatever. But in general, everyone has magic inside of them that they have the right to unlock. And it just reminds me so much of Genesis 3, you know, Satan lying and being like, did God really say you shouldn't eat from this tree? Yeah.
• 12:53
  you know you won't die your eyes will be opened and you will be like god knowing good and evil and that's the same lie and that was really my heart was to show that because god used me remembering genesis 3 to bring me to salvation because i realized i'm not falling for some new lie this is the same lie that led to the fall of mankind and it's a deception and it's destructive so i just throughout the occult that is a lie and so when it comes to the magic inside of you it's really like
• 13:21
  Hey, for me, I can speak for myself. It was your Christian dogma or your Christian upbringing is holding you back from true power. You have power inside of yourself that is your right to awaken. And so embrace these secret things. Embrace the forbidden, ultimately, to have power.
• 13:41
  And it would teach you all these different modalities to embracing power within you, embracing psychic gifts, and doing magic in real life, which is very enticing. I mean, again, to your point about Harry Potter, who doesn't want to have whatever they want? Like, I think of Satan tempting Jesus in the wilderness with...
• 13:59
  all this could be yours if you just worship me. And so that plus the transmutation of darkness was a huge point, which is that sin isn't real, sin is an illusion. And the darkness that you are experiencing inside it, what you experience as darkness, which the occult says isn't really darkness, it's just the other side of the coin, yin and yang, a necessary counterpart to light. And they bring in the lie that God is darkness and light. And in order to know him, you need to eat from both.
• 14:26
  which is a lie. The Bible says God is light and in him is no darkness at all. But the idea is that we can transmute the darkness in ourselves through these practices in order to turn darkness into light. And I think of Carl Jung and shadow work, and there are a bunch of different things that go into that. But that would be what that is.
• 14:47
  Wow, so much, so much to understand about this. And the lure, I mean, they use the right words, right? And then they say, you have the power, right? Don't they make it a prideful or a selfish thing that we can be our own God in a way.
• 15:03
  and have this power. So really quick, you include a chapter called Welcoming the Enemy, chapter two in your book. I would just love for you to explain briefly what that's about. I mean, there's so many areas in our lives, I think, that we can understand how we can open the door to Satan. Go ahead, Jack.
• 15:22
  Yes, my heart really in this book was to show, you know, I didn't want to be sensational. I didn't want to just write what I experienced for the sake of it. But to show that what started for me as how I word it is like an ember that progressively over time grew gradually, slowly until it became this out of control wildfire. But by the time I was there, it didn't seem scary. It was just familiar because it had been so gradual. Really, for me as a child, having...
• 15:49
  dealing with childhood sexual abuse and not telling anyone about it and feeling so isolated. And there's, I mean, I can't even put into words how hard that was. And then rather than knowing the gospel, reading the Bible, having a solid foundation in Christ and knowing who he was and that I could turn to him, I turned to trance-like states. I had a supernatural experience as a child that I put my worth and identity in and then chased after, wanted to make my own Ouija boards to have more of them.
• 16:19
  And so I had no idea at that time in my life that I was welcoming in Satan, that I was going down this path that would eventually lead me to practicing ritual ceremonial magic in a Masonic temple as a member of a Hermetic order. Those first steps, though, of going to trance-like states and trying to escape myself and running after supernatural experiences and trying to form my worldview around the experience rather than the word of God was me welcoming Satan in.
• 16:46
  to where when I was an adult and practicing these things because of my childhood experiences, and then the ones that followed thinking, this was just my destiny, this is who I am, and having a false identity, a false savior, and really a false reality where I didn't realize I was truly headed to hell.
• 17:06
  Wow, it's a very interesting path. Not uncommon, I think, to a lot of people, but what maybe sets yours slightly apart is the Masonic Temple. That's fascinating because a lot of people that go into the witchcraft or tarot and psychic readings and stuff like the occult—
• 17:25
  They don't really go down that path. How did you make that connection? And is it my understanding that usually it's primarily men in leadership, in Freemasonry, in the Masonic Lodge? Tell us a little bit about that, because I know we touched on it quite a while back with you, but I forgot that part of your story. Yeah. Yeah.
• 17:46
  Yes. So I have a family member or I had family members who were Masons and were involved in the fraternity women involved in Eastern Star. And so I was familiar with that throughout my life and really found identity in the symbolism, though I didn't understand what it meant. I felt like very called to it in my sin, ultimately, which I didn't realize. And so then I got into Aleister Crowley.
• 18:11
  which also had to do with a tarot deck involving an ancient Egyptian quote-unquote deity that I was following. And in that tarot deck, there was a little booklet that talked about the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which is what I would eventually join in L.A., which was started by three master masons. So I felt really drawn to that.
• 18:30
  I also had a supernatural experience where a Scottish Rite Masonic temple physically glowed to me. I didn't realize that that's what it was. And that was kind of the last straw for me on this weird, you know, following signs and omens, New Age to cult journey to where I was like, you know what, I keep feeling called to this. But...
• 18:47
  But I'm afraid to step through that door. But that was one of the last draws. And I was never a Mason in America. Freemasons are only men. And I didn't want to join the Eastern Star, which is the women's group.
• 19:03
  group that is connected because they had an upside down pentagram as their symbol and i had totally subjective morality and was like well that seems a little bad um but i i joined the hermetic order because of one the leading that i was experiencing through signs and omens and just following demons that i now know were demons but um also because of the masonic influence on its original start and formation and they borrowed heavily from masonic
• 19:30
  rituals, symbolism, initiatory structure. So I didn't really know that at the time. I was more just following my feelings and this evil leading. But I later found out how the dots were connected and then that just bolstered, oh, I am really called to this. So yeah, that's just a great deception. And the reason why we practiced in a Masonic temple was because of the symbolism, because again, we borrowed heavily from that. And so it just made sense for us to practice in the ritual room of that temple.
• 20:00
  Fascinating angle to your story, Jack. It really is. And what you just said, follow your feelings. Follow your heart. What could go wrong, right? Yes. Don't follow God. Follow your feelings and your heart. Before we run out of time, I want to go to Chapter 12 and talk about my friends, the aliens. Because of recent events and news stories about UFOs and aliens, tell us a little bit about that. I know you're not going to give it all away because I want people to get the book. Go ahead. Yes.
• 20:29
  Yeah, so that first supernatural experience that I had as a child seeing lights in the sky, I thought were angels. But then I later found out through a family member who felt very connected to Orion and aliens about UFOs and aliens and thought, well, that must be what I experienced. So I put a lot of my identity in being chosen by...
• 20:48
  what I called my friends, the aliens. Like I felt this familiar relationship with them throughout my life, continued having very scary supernatural experiences, but I just didn't want to be afraid. I wanted to grow in my relationship with them. And that went on in many different ways, but...
• 21:07
  culminated in me having very scary contact experiences, visitation and abduction experience that was embarrassing and confusing. And God actually used that ultimately to bring me to salvation because that horrifying abduction experience was so shaking to me that even though I have all these videos of myself talking to myself about it to a camera because I was trying to work through it. And I'm like, I...
• 21:31
  I know I sound crazy to myself. Who would I tell this to? Like, I don't know what to do. I wish I could talk to someone just so out of my mind. And so I truly believe at a certain point possessed, but God in his kindness allowed that experience to shake me to think, you know, maybe this is not good. And maybe Satan is behind this connection that I'm pursuing because I believed that they wanted to use my body and see through my eyes and didn't think of that as possession. And so talk about welcoming the enemy. I was following these guides,
• 22:01
  to my own demise and really did until Jesus Christ saved me.
• 22:06
  I want to go just really quick. What you said reminded me of Ephesians 6, of course, is one of the many passages. But I think about what we don't—we hear about the armor of God a lot. As important as that is, all the pieces of the armor are very important. But let's go on and talk about what this says right before that, before Paul says, put on the floor of God. Before he describes it, he says, our struggle is not against flesh and blood. What is our struggle?
• 22:34
  against rulers, principalities, powers, world forces of this darkness, spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
• 22:50
  And Paul writes about a third heaven. You know, there are different dimensions that we just, I don't know that we're meant to know. God gives us his word, his perfect and complete holy word. And that's what we have. And we don't have all the details about these other things. Isn't that interesting that God says, yes, there's something beyond what you can imagine right now. So when I hear these stories, I'm going...
• 23:15
  Yeah, I'm glad God called you and got you out of that, Jack. Boy, this is going by very, very fast. I wanted to ask you something. I know this is speculation, but I don't know that I've ever asked you this. What do you think would have happened in your life if you would have continued down that road—
• 23:35
  I mean, it's almost hard to say that, you know, what if God didn't reach you, but you were going down this road. Where would that have led, do you think, personally, physically in your life?
• 23:47
  Yes, no doubt. I would have either died from drug and alcohol overdose or ending my own life, which I was very serious about doing. So, and really the only, like I truly believed I was too far gone for only Jesus to save. And so when he saved me and when I realized that
• 24:05
  the depth of my sin, the holiness of God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that I was aware that I was headed for hell in a sense. I just had this impending doom that I could not escape. And yet that God is love, and he sent his only son, Jesus Christ, born to a virgin, truly God and truly man, to live the perfect sinless life that I clearly have not lived. And that he went to the cross and bore sinners sin and the just God,
• 24:33
  punishment deserved for, rightly deserved for sin in the place of sinners, though he is sinless, that he died, that he rose on the third day victorious, and then he ascended to the right hand of God the Father as the one and only mediator, the only go-between, between God the Father and man, that those who repent and put their faith in Christ alone for salvation can have eternal life.
• 24:53
  I am forever amazed at the gospel because I knew that I could not work my way out of this. I worded it as I thought I dug a hole so deep that I could never crawl out of. I thought I had no hope. And so the reality of Jesus Christ bearing my sin for me, his righteousness being accounted to me, his sacrifice atoning for me is so amazing. And I don't recommend it, but you could search the world and you will never, ever, you could search the universe.
• 25:21
  and you will never, ever find any higher knowledge, anything more glorious and beautiful than the gospel of Christ and the salvation found in Him alone.
• 25:29
  Amen. Amen. And this is another perfect example and reminder that God can reach anybody, and no one is too far from him. If you take nothing else away from this, friends, I know we all know someone in our lives. We think, man, they're rebellious. They're whatever. No one is too far for God. Keep planting or watering those seeds. Really quick, two minutes left. I'm so sorry, Jack. I had so many other questions, but this is interesting because a friend recently said, a Christian friend said, you do you.
• 25:58
  And I thought, oh, no. Then I read this quote in your book. It says, in our culture of moral relativism, subjectivity, and you do you encouragement, happiness by almost any means possible seems to be the cry of the age. Objective truth is frowned upon. A minute and a half, Jack. Sorry I left you with this, but just share a little bit about why that's not good. You do you. Yes.
• 26:20
  No, I really for me, it was you do you or live your truth or follow your dreams. And then that progressed to you are the most powerful being in the universe, your thoughts outpicture your reality, you have the power within yourself. And then that progressed to you are God, sin is an illusion, do what thou wilt.
• 26:40
  The progression was so slow, so innocuous that I didn't see it coming. But by the time I was in that depth of do what thou wilt, it really didn't sound that different than follow your heart, live your truth, you do you. So I do think that's very dangerous because really, if you follow it through to its logical end, that is the cry, that is the heart song of the occult of really following Satan is do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law in the words of Alistair Crowley, which is bad.
• 27:09
  Yep. Amen. Amen. I'm so glad you explained that. I'm so glad we got to that question because we ought not to be talking like that. Follow your heart. Oh my goodness. What could go wrong? Jack, I want to send people to your website, jackmarino.com. This is out now, almost 380 pages.
• 27:26
  And Amazon.com, other places where great books are sold, put out by Harvest House. Congratulations. Thanks so much for all that you have to share and contribute and warn and encourage the body of Christ. God bless you, sister, and protect you in Jesus' name. Thank you so much, brother. It is always a joy, and I'm so thankful for you. Lord willing, we'll do it again. Thank you, guys. God bless you. And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter. See you next time.
• 28:02
  you