Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Hamster Book Club - Mean Streets by Terrance Dicks (featuring John Isles & Dylan Rees)

Transcript

Hamster Book Club - Mean Streets by Terrance Dicks (featuring John Isles & Dylan Rees) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:32
None. Welcome back to the Hamster Book
0:44
Club. My name is Joe Ford and I have
0:48
assembled friends old and new. I'm here today with the voice
0:54
that everybody will recognize, well, anywhere where niche
1:00
Doctor Who tat is found. Mr. Dylan Reece.
1:03
Hello, Dylan. Hello, it's wonderful to be
1:05
here. They might not recognize my
1:06
voice. I am actually getting over a bat
1:08
of COVID, so it's a little bit raspy, my voice.
1:11
So maybe you know, I'm just changing it up.
1:13
New voice I've regenerated. Kind of sexy, actually.
1:16
Yes, it's sexy, you know. Can't quite get the words out.
1:19
I might stop and cough at some point.
1:21
We don't want your own voice back anymore.
1:24
We like the new Dylan and Mr. John Iles.
1:28
Hello, John. Hello, Joe.
1:31
Welcome to Hamster. And I'm going to also ask you in
1:35
a question immediately. All right, before we even start
1:37
talking about the book. Yeah, OK.
1:38
I just need to get a sort of degree of your pedigree of
1:42
Doctor Who book reader, right. Where did you start with Doctor
1:46
Who Books? What was your very first book
1:48
that you read? So my memory's a little hazy
1:51
because I'm getting on a bit, but I think it was the dark
1:55
invasion of Earth by turn 6, and I think it was around the time
2:00
of the Five Doctors. So I was 9, probably going on 10
2:06
when when that went out. And it was in my town library,
2:10
Central Library in Huddersfield, couple of Doctor Who books, I
2:13
think. I also got I think Robots of
2:16
Death and Margarine on Dead around the same time.
2:19
But I definitely remember the dark invasion of Earth and this
2:22
is this is really funny because I only knew of the film.
2:26
I imagine the doctor was Cushing all the way through.
2:29
Oh. Bless you.
2:31
I mean, but the cover's gone. He had white hair.
2:34
Exactly. I recognize the source of the
2:36
robot men. It looked like the film.
2:38
I had no idea that film wasn't Doctor Him.
2:41
Yeah. You.
2:42
Definitely started with the right book there.
2:44
You know of the three because Robots of Death is basically a
2:46
pamphlet and Wardry undead. I mean the cover over a mortar
2:50
and undead. What is going on there?
2:51
I. Can't remember what's on the
2:53
cover. It's just a picture of Peter
2:55
Davidson I think on the console. Yeah.
2:58
Oh yes, with the Novak's enlightenment, isn't it?
3:02
With a dimmed console room. I think that JNT was trying to
3:06
get the girls buying Doctor Who books by slapping Peter
3:08
Davidson's face all over the covers.
3:11
I wonder Anyway. OK.
3:12
So so you came in with some targets?
3:14
Yeah. And then did you sort of buy the
3:17
whole run of? Targets No, I wasn't.
3:20
I was a Doctor Who fan work small F so so I think like most
3:25
people of my generation, I grew up watching Doctor Who from my
3:30
earliest memory is Destiny with Dalek.
3:32
So I was 4, nearly 5 when when that went out.
3:37
I I definitely remember the Daleks walking across the sand
3:41
dunes from that. And asked what you're talking
3:44
about. And I wonder.
3:46
You're a fan with a small F if that was the first one.
3:52
So, so after that, I just watched Doctor Who, I watched
3:55
Star Trek. I love them equally.
3:58
And then when Sylvester McCoy came on, I got into it and still
4:05
family. Small F, possibly one of the
4:07
only three people in my high school still watching Doctor
4:09
Who. And and for that Christmas, so
4:14
87, my mum got me, I can't remember now, a handful of
4:17
Targets from a charity shop in town, which I didn't expect.
4:21
I loved it. I got David Alex, which I
4:25
thought was amazing. Web of Fear was amazing.
4:28
Free Doctor Who and the Free Doctors was amazing.
4:33
What else did I get in that batch?
4:34
I think I got the Sea Devils. It was quite random, but you
4:39
know, loved them. And then I didn't actually
4:42
become a fan until the repeat of, well, first transmission of
4:46
the unbroadcast pilot in 91. And then.
4:50
You waited until after it was off the air to become a fan of a
4:53
big F. Yes, definitely.
4:55
That's not a strategy I would advise.
4:57
You know, and then the first Doctor Who book I bought for
5:01
myself was Paradise Towers from, from a comic shop in Leeds.
5:08
I think it was Space Odyssey at the time, or Odyssey 7.
5:12
It changed its name and now it's the Forbidden Planet.
5:15
But I just recognised that the cleaning robots on the cover,
5:18
which I love that design of cleaning robots.
5:21
And that was the first one I bought for myself.
5:22
That was 92. Recently covered on a book club
5:27
that's yet to be released. Mr. Michael Mills, Spoiler We
5:30
both absolutely loved it. Good.
5:33
Is there Is there a bad McCoy era novelisation?
5:36
No. If anyone goes after time in the
5:38
Rani, I'll have you all right. Don't.
5:40
Remember, if I read Time in the Rani, I think I have.
5:43
I think of classic. All right, I don't think there
5:47
is no. So what about original Doctor
5:49
Who books then? Which is.
5:51
So I was 92 like you said, I became a family code to laugh.
5:57
Went to my first convention, which was Monopticon 2 in
6:01
Manchester on my own because my friends who weren't quite enough
6:06
fans to go with me that year sat by Doctor Who magazine.
6:11
I was already getting TV Zone and the first one was Love and
6:15
War. After reading the preview and
6:18
all the stuff about Beneath in Doctor Who magazine, I thought,
6:21
and I think a review said, oh, it's just like classic Doctor
6:23
Who. So I was intrigued enough.
6:26
Yeah, I was listening to your podcasts on that job, so I think
6:30
I know what you're going to say. But no I.
6:31
I'm not going to say it, but I'm I'm glad you're thinking it so.
6:34
So Love and war was my first, Benice is my favorite companion
6:39
and my wife wouldn't let me name our daughter Benice which which
6:45
I still not got over yet 14 years later but.
6:47
But little Nisa is thriving. Oh yeah, actually, my son is
6:51
named after Malcolm Hulk. I thought you were going to say
6:54
Chris Quench then, and then this call was over, I'm afraid.
6:58
Oh, boy. OK, So.
7:01
So you've done your time then with the new adventures.
7:05
So. I've got them all.
7:07
I've got them all, the misadventures and the BBC books
7:11
coming into. Main streets by Terrace Sticks,
7:14
which we are here to talk about today.
7:17
You're certainly not a say I've I read these some time ago, so
7:23
I'm sort of exploring them. I did, don't know it isn't
7:26
recently and Oh no it didn't. Unfortunately, the audio the
7:31
audio is much better. The audio is great.
7:33
The audio is fantastic. It's unbelievable.
7:36
That's the first one. But my question to both of you
7:38
is, is what is your experience of these new adventures?
7:43
So the Bernie Summerfield ones, and I know it's sort of starting
7:48
on a negative no, but why did you imagine these only lasted 2
7:53
years and. Books, wasn't it?
7:56
23 books and they sort of started one a month, then went
7:59
to one every two months and then sort of died a death.
8:03
Hey, what happened here? You say 23 books, but that's
8:07
more than Peter Capel these doctors got.
8:09
So, you know, I mean, that's not a bad run.
8:12
Well, Dylan, what about you? So the Bernie Summerfield New
8:14
adventures. This is the first time I've ever
8:17
read 1. I know, I know.
8:19
I've got a couple on a shelf at my dad's, but I've just never
8:24
I've. I wasn't buying the new
8:26
adventures really at the time. I was a little bit too young.
8:28
I bought a couple because the covers were pretty, but I just
8:31
found them impenetrable. And so I got into reading them
8:34
later when I was like 2021, when arguably I was more the target,
8:39
the, the, the target age. And I, I do remember when Big
8:45
Finish launched their range of Benny audios.
8:49
I remember going, that's a, that's a spin off too far, isn't
8:53
it? That's ridiculous.
8:55
Why would I buy a, a, an audio of a character in a book when
9:00
they're doing the professor and Ace, which is basically Doctor
9:03
Who. But again, this is 15 year old
9:07
me, 1415 year old me. And so the, the Bernice of it
9:12
all wasn't something that I was particularly interested in.
9:16
And it was only years later when I started reading the new
9:21
adventures. I got into the character of
9:23
Bernice and then went back to the audios and went, oh wow,
9:25
these are amazing. But I never, ever read a, a, a
9:29
Benny book. And here I am now, having read
9:31
my first Benny book. What about you then?
9:34
Job. Well, so with the new adventures
9:39
I started with Love and War and then I the next one I got was
9:45
deceit when I spotted Ace on the covering debate Smith about what
9:49
she's back. And obviously I knew about the
9:51
controversy transit. So I wasn't interested in
9:54
transit and then I just kind of bought them as they came out.
9:59
So I was 16/17/17 around then. And then I just picked up all
10:06
the all the backlog eventually through go to conventions, comic
10:10
shops. There's a fantastic second hand
10:12
shop in in Manchester that seemed to have all the neo
10:16
missing adventures. And that's how I plugged my
10:18
collection for the ones that were the ones I wasn't a bold
10:21
about at the time, like ghost event space.
10:23
I went back and got later or scales of injustice anyway.
10:26
So so I just kept going with with the beneath, you know,
10:29
adventures. In fact, I went to a convention
10:32
in peace for a one day event for the new adventures.
10:36
That was 95. That was a great.
10:40
Day. Was it the one called Writers
10:42
Gate? It might have been Paul Connell,
10:45
Andy Lane, Brecker Levine. Yeah, I think it was there.
10:51
Mckinty was there. Jim Mortimer.
10:55
I wasn't there. I remember again thinking, Now
10:58
this is right up my street, but I remember seeing it in a fancy
11:01
and thinking, who wants to go to a convention with only writers
11:04
of new adventures? Me, you, you, you, John, you,
11:07
Joe. And now I would as well.
11:09
And and don't forget the the Hoovers did one a couple of
11:12
years ago. I was gutted on this.
11:13
That was amazing, but. I've got the DVD but.
11:16
Me too, I'm not sure if I'm in it yet, I haven't checked but.
11:20
I don't ask those. People now those, all those,
11:23
those writers you've just mentioned there was like, what
11:26
tough things were you going through in the 90s to write
11:28
those books? Jesus Christ.
11:31
I'm halfway through Blood Heat at the moment and it's so
11:34
fucking miserable, honestly. Jim Moore might cheer up.
11:37
So anyway, I I wasn't as enthusiastic as the books went
11:42
on. The Benny ones, the later ones,
11:44
Angels fear and all that lot, I couldn't tell you what happened
11:47
in them. I think some of it went over my
11:50
head. It just got a bit too weird.
11:52
Angels, AIS and I just, I think I just stayed out of loyalty to
11:58
the character in the range, really.
12:01
It's, I think it started to lean, it started off sort of
12:04
tensively. You know, science fiction has
12:05
never been more fun. Oh, no, it isn't mean streets,
12:08
you know, walking to Babylon. Great, great sort of standalone
12:11
stories. And then in the second-half of
12:13
that run, they did lean into a lot of sort of hard SF and
12:16
there's a lot of, I think it's 3 or 4 Dave Stone books towards
12:20
the end. Because the big story on the
12:22
mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:23
And it got a bit heavy. Well, come on, what?
12:27
What's your big theories before we talk about mean streets as to
12:30
why this was such a brief run? Dylan, I think.
12:35
Oh, sorry. Go on.
12:36
No, no. I've said too much.
12:37
Go on. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
12:39
no, no, no. You can't say.
12:41
You can't say too much on this thing, all right?
12:44
OK, well, I don't want to dominate it, you know, I know
12:46
dominate it all the time, but. Dominate away.
12:51
I just sorry, what was the question?
12:55
Well, why did the chop come so soon?
12:56
I'm assuming they weren't going for a two year run.
12:59
I I think that the only people buying new adventures must have
13:02
been Doctor Who fans and and since the BBC were doing books
13:06
now that were Doctor Who this wasn't a need for them.
13:10
And not enough people like me but love Bernice and the others
13:12
to to keep going. And I just think mainstream
13:16
sci-fi fans weren't reading them.
13:19
I've got no evidence for that, but that's just my theory.
13:21
I mean, I'm assuming the numbers were low, otherwise they would
13:24
have kept churning them out of. Course, like I said, it went
13:26
bimonthly and didn't they? They must have been and you
13:31
know, obviously Big Finish come along later and do what they do
13:33
with the character and they obviously do their own books,
13:38
but I guess they figure out. They've got those.
13:41
Yeah, well, yeah, I've got quite a few of them as well.
13:43
But I, I, I wonder if they've, because they're a small business
13:48
rather than a big thing like Virgin, they found a business
13:51
model that works for producing a low number of paperbacks, X
13:54
amount of audios that break even, make a bit of money.
13:58
And so it continues to be a profitable range.
14:01
You can see a big company like Virgin publishing somebody in
14:04
the accounts department going through all the ranges they've
14:07
got of everything and going, we're selling what, 2000 of
14:10
these a month and the profit is like a grand or something.
14:13
I pulled those numbers completely out of the air.
14:15
But but yeah, no, but you know what I mean?
14:20
Like they probably looked at the profit margin and the sales and
14:23
went, why, why are we doing this?
14:25
Like there's no point. We can.
14:27
We can do something else. I've got like a personal theory
14:32
as well, and that is I just think to follow the New
14:35
Adventures model so strictly. So basically they just pulled
14:40
all the same writers over. So you look at that opening
14:44
salvo and it's Justin Richards, Christopher Beulis, Gary
14:47
Russell, Terran Sticks, it's all of those.
14:49
So I'm assuming they're hoping to capture the Doctor Who market
14:53
because it, those are the what tried and tested authors for the
14:56
New Adventures, but without the main star of the new adventures,
15:01
which is the Doctor. And I, I sort of want to compare
15:04
it to something like the faction Paradox range where there's less
15:08
books. But if you look at it as sort of
15:10
overall, there's a ton of comics and audios and books and all
15:14
sorts. And it's run.
15:15
I had a quick look for 17 years and I think it's because Faction
15:20
Paradox went, you know what, we'll, we'll take this thing
15:23
from the 8th Doctor books and then we'll spin it out into
15:26
something completely unique with its own tone and it will capture
15:31
its own audience. And I think it did.
15:33
Whereas I think the New adventures, there were Doctor
15:37
Who books being brought out at the same time, so they had the
15:40
real thing. So why would you read these sort
15:42
of knock offs? And I think I think it takes
15:45
Lisa Bauman to come in and play the character on audio for it to
15:49
find that that audience again. I mean, I wonder what would have
15:51
happened if rather than going for the Doctor Who authors, as
15:56
you say, Gary Russell, Terrence Dicks, Paul Cornell, if you got
15:59
some bigger sci-fi authors in or from other things, people are
16:03
writing Thai and Star Trek and X File novels and tried to launch
16:06
it as a range like that. I wonder whether that would have
16:08
done anything. I mean, we'll never know, but
16:11
it's it's an interesting proposition as opposed to what
16:14
we got. Well, still of my start of a 10
16:16
for Main Streets, which I thought was a really fun book.
16:20
Yeah, is. Do you imagine any other support
16:24
science fiction original novels range would call in somebody
16:29
like Terence Dates to write one of their opening books?
16:35
Probably not at this stage, No, I think like he's I don't want
16:38
to say past it because this book still proves that he's got it, I
16:42
think, but I don't think he's a name you'll get like The X-Files
16:46
time books. No one's going oh, we should get
16:48
Terence Dix to do please. The interesting thing about the
16:57
use of Dicks here though is while I wasn't interested in
17:00
these books at the time, and I found the new adventures a bit
17:05
hard going, the 8th Doctor adventures I was able to get
17:09
into that first lot quite easily because they're a bit more
17:11
accessible. I think I would have found this
17:13
accessible had I read it as a sort of what year is it 19?
17:17
9898, No, it's 97. Not yet.
17:20
It's 90. 7:00 So I would have been 1415.
17:22
I think 1415 year old me would have found this very accessible
17:27
in a way that he didn't find love and war when he tried to
17:31
read it at that age. I mean, in many ways this is a
17:33
joyous read, but let's not pretend that you need a brain to
17:36
read it, right? Well, let's start with your
17:41
opening thoughts then. John, what did you think of Mean
17:43
Streets? How did you find this read this
17:45
time? Right.
17:47
OK, so I and I didn't enjoy it as much this time.
17:53
Now I don't remember if this is my second or third reading of
17:56
it, but I always had fond memories of it.
17:59
In fact my copy I had turn sticks signed for me at a
18:04
convention I went to 98 in Wolverhampton of all places.
18:10
He was at the bar. I tentatively approached him.
18:13
He was friendly. I could have chatted for more,
18:15
but I was too nervous. But but I said, oh, I really
18:18
like mean streets and I got to sign it.
18:20
I think I also got to sign Catastrophia because that would
18:23
come out shortly after, which I did not enjoy.
18:26
But I didn't tell him that. It's a great tile though, isn't
18:29
it? I play it called Catastrophia.
18:32
Exactly, it was great but but you know like you say, it is fun
18:37
and maybe my memories of it was were that it was better than it
18:41
actually is even though I did enjoy reading it.
18:45
So it's still a good book, but I'll leave it a while again for
18:48
rereading. I question whether this has got
18:51
two or three reads in it. I've read it once now and I
18:54
think that might be enough. Well, Dylan, how did you find
18:58
it? Well, I had a riot of a time.
19:01
Like I just think this is so much fun.
19:04
This is, I say this a lot when I've done Dick's books, but
19:07
they're always so much fun. And you know, it reminds me of
19:11
Shakedown for obvious reasons. It reminds me of the Al Capone
19:16
bits of Blood Harvest for obvious reasons.
19:18
And that like when I read Blood Harvest, I was bored shitless
19:21
with all the stuff back on the State of Decay planet, but all
19:25
the stuff with prohibition and stuff, I was having a riot.
19:28
And I think Dick's is having a riot when he's writing it.
19:31
And this is him sort of let loose in a Doctor Who is world
19:34
where he can do he can write his gangster novel that he wants to
19:37
write set in space. It's a bit 2000 AD.
19:41
It's a bit tongue in cheek. And I'm just I had a great time
19:45
from start to finish. Loved, loved, loved it.
19:48
As you say. I don't know whether I'd read it
19:50
again, but it's something I now hold in high regard as just a a
19:55
hoot. You can see him putting the
19:57
equation together, can't you? Sort of the the detective parts
20:00
of Blood Harvest, which are first person initially, the mega
20:06
city that he creates in Shakedown.
20:10
If I put those two things together in this, I haven't got
20:13
to do too much work. I've done most of the work
20:15
already. I mean, I'm with you.
20:17
I mean, I do think this absolutely exemplifies all of
20:20
Dick's strengths. And all of his weaknesses as
20:24
well as a writer. But when he's having fun writing
20:28
a book, you can really, really tell.
20:31
And he is having the best. I'm writing this book.
20:35
Especially all the casual violence he's throwing around,
20:37
especially those first person noirish sections from Garshak's
20:42
point of view. So yeah, I mean, I, I tore
20:45
through it. I did leave it until today to
20:48
read the last 20 pages. And I was a bit baffled.
20:51
I sent Dylan a message going, you know, I still don't know
20:54
what the project is and I've only got 20 pages left.
20:58
The whole book is a shaggy dog story with Mcguffin.
21:02
It's a classic pulp noir thing, isn't it?
21:06
And something that Hitchcock was fond of.
21:08
It's a Mac Guffin. And you're right, you get feels,
21:10
but you think, fucking hell, they've wrapped everything up
21:13
and it's like, what is the fucking project?
21:16
You think, all right, it's illegal drugs.
21:18
No, it's like, what the fuck is it, Terence?
21:22
So it's a it's a program to make the ultimate mine.
21:25
Worker is that yes? Yeah, genetically re engineering
21:29
them and their offspring. But with the unfortunate side
21:32
effect that they turn into. Psychopaths.
21:35
Yeah. Yeah.
21:37
I mean, flaming eyes. What's?
21:40
What's very funny about it is literally to get to this
21:43
conclusion, I can't believe we're starting at the end to get
21:46
to this. I mean, I brought it up to get
21:48
to this conclusion, you have basically Bernice and Chris go,
21:51
Oh my God, look over there, everybody.
21:54
And then somebody else goes quick on that computer that's
21:56
going to have all the information.
21:58
And then they just download all that to a floppy disk, and then
22:01
Bernice reads it all out and that's the end.
22:04
The thing is, it could have quite easily been just about the
22:06
gang warfare and drug problems and you could have lost those
22:09
last 50 pages if you just deleted the word the project
22:13
from from throughout. But I for me it's it's a bit
22:17
like a episode 3 of a new series Doctor Who is that it's going to
22:22
get you from A to B and you're going to have a fun time getting
22:27
there. And it's not really the meaty
22:29
stuff you might get later in the season or something, but you're
22:32
going to have a great time. It's planet of the Ood or fires
22:36
of Pompeii, which you sit down, you watch them and a great time.
22:40
But are they the best Doctor Who can be?
22:42
No. Is this the best are?
22:44
You bad? I mean bumping off thousands of
22:48
people and the other ones torturing and enslaving aliens.
22:51
Yeah, but it's all handled very lightly because you've only got
22:54
45 minutes to do it and you've got to wrap it up in that time.
22:58
I mean, OK, do you guys read detective novel?
23:04
You do. I.
23:06
Do you read or you read detective novels?
23:08
But both Both. OK.
23:10
Oh great. Well come on, provide us with an
23:12
education because I don't read any of this Raymond Charles
23:15
stuff. I've even done too much
23:16
preparation on enough for this. Oh.
23:19
Brilliant. Enough you go.
23:20
We've done none, so go. Go ahead.
23:22
Oh dear, so I years and years ago read The Big Sleep by Roman
23:29
Chandler that that's his most famous 1 and I mean.
23:33
It's the only one I've heard of. John, you know well, well,
23:36
exactly. That's probably why, but also
23:39
sort of growing up again in the in the 80s and 90s, I'm very
23:43
familiar with seeing these old films, you know, the Philip
23:46
Marlowe films, Maltese Penguin, Maltese Penguin, Maltese Falcon.
23:52
So he's a Doctor Who fan. Yeah, exactly.
23:56
You can tell. And and you know, even dead men
24:00
don't wear Plaid. The the film with Steve Martin
24:03
where he's he's spliced him with classic film, you know, so it's
24:07
kind of kind of very I've taken it in by osmosis, but I made the
24:11
effort to read the book and it's a good book.
24:13
Again. It's got a plot hole that's
24:15
never explained. And and apparently when Raymond
24:19
Chandler was asked about it, he said don't ask so, so I've read
24:24
that that's. Exactly what Terence Dix would
24:26
say as well. Oh, did I not explain that?
24:28
Oh, yeah, exactly. So I've read that.
24:31
I've read some noirish stuff, not all sort of Pi first person
24:36
stuff. In fact, this might interest
24:38
you, Joe. I can't remember how you are
24:40
with Star Trek, Dylan, but there's a Star Trek novel called
24:43
A Hard Rain, which is a Dixon Hill novel on the holodeck.
24:49
OK, which is pretty good. It alternates the chapters
24:51
between holodeck surfing, 6th and Hill first person duration,
24:55
you know, Picard. And then the other chapters are
24:58
Picard's ship's log or captain's log.
25:02
And everything is totally in character when he's on the
25:04
holodeck. So no reference to being first
25:07
person? Yeah.
25:08
Or first person. It's a brilliant book if you can
25:10
track it down. I don't think it's too much on
25:12
on eBay, it's really good and it's the cover's brilliant for
25:17
it as well. Gone from Terence Dicks to Dixon
25:20
Hill too. Many Dicks on this call, I know
25:22
well, Don't call it too many Dicks.
25:28
So how does this fare so. So anyway, sorry, where was I?
25:32
So so the gar shot bits are faithful to the the style.
25:36
I mean, you know, it's all been parroted so much as well.
25:39
This, this, this gumshoe in his office with his name, put it on
25:43
the door. The femme fatale comes in even
25:45
gently does that, you know, and he's drinking whiskey out of the
25:49
filing cabinet. So it's there.
25:52
And you know, Terence, like you said, he's having a fun time.
25:55
And I was trying to recall an interview.
25:57
He must have been interviewed when it came out and talking
25:59
about this. But you know, he does act so
26:02
well, and I wish the whole book had been from Garshak's
26:05
perspective, like that one of my.
26:06
Questions you know is do you think this would be a better
26:09
read? I agree with.
26:10
You but that's that's what my 20 year memory was not 20 years, is
26:14
it my goodness, 19. 7 was the bit that stood out the most.
26:17
That was a bit that stood out and Intelligent Ogron was a
26:20
brilliant idea and making it a correct detective was fantastic.
26:24
I mean, the cover's amazing. I love the cover.
26:26
I mean, he is a product of genetic manipulation, isn't he?
26:30
Yeah. Yeah, well, he had wires and
26:32
stuff put in by a scientist who he killed and stole his
26:35
spaceship. But yeah, I thought that that
26:38
was a brilliant idea and. And even I think I read this
26:41
somewhere else. It's not my original idea, but
26:43
Bernice was famous, no, infamous for her diary entries.
26:47
So I would have liked to alter chances between her diary and
26:50
Garshak's narration in his head. That would be great, Terence,
26:54
but. Good mates with Paul Connell as
26:58
well. I don't know why I didn't give
26:59
him the nod. Joey.
27:00
I'll do this Diary. I mean, look at this line I've
27:02
written down. Here it goes.
27:03
That was when I was the Chief of police.
27:06
Now all I had was a shabby office.
27:08
I don't know what I've got. American had a trench coat and a
27:11
blaster. The names Garshak but I'm an
27:15
Ogron so great. But you do read, Yeah, you do
27:19
read it in American accent, even though it's an Ogron.
27:23
But I mean, Joe, that's the same impression you do for What's the
27:27
Face from Daleks in Manhattan? Hands in the air.
27:33
Yeah, Tallulah slash, but you know.
27:36
During the first person duration series, you can just hear that
27:39
you know that music that was playing in literally in the
27:41
Maltese Penguin. It's a.
27:43
Saxophone isn't it. It's that style.
27:48
I mean, I'll pump some in, don't worry.
27:50
Well, Dylan, are you fan of detective novels?
27:53
I don't think I've ever read a detective novel to be.
27:55
But you have now. Well, yeah, I have now, but if I
27:59
did I imagine it would be a lot like this one with Ogrons and
28:03
stuff. No, I'm.
28:04
I'm not far. Off.
28:05
But this is this is all the cliches because it's sort of
28:09
seeped into popular culture enough for you to be able to
28:12
recognize those, those things like, or even as a Doctor Who
28:16
fan, you get it in things like myth Runner, Dick Tracy.
28:19
The movie was only sort of seven years before this or something
28:22
like that. So like it's sort of seeked.
28:24
It's become by the 90s, it's become a cliche of the genre
28:28
enough that people mock it. And so it's sort of claws into
28:33
your brain that way. I now is this a cliche of the
28:37
detective genre? Like listen to this.
28:40
That was Oh no, that's what I just read.
28:42
Sorry. A good hearted, occasionally
28:44
corrupt police chief retired when criminals got more
28:48
organized. A life of debauchery on
28:50
severance pay before becoming a Private Eye, A shamus, a
28:54
gumshoe. I mean, fabulous.
28:57
I was just lapping. I was lapping all that stuff up.
29:00
But I'll tell you what, I was losing a bit of interest when we
29:03
were going back to what should be our central character,
29:07
Bernice and Chris. All all that stuff on Della.
29:12
Well, I mean, I figured was that even needed like Betty loses her
29:18
job in the opening chapters and you know the the project, this
29:22
mysterious projects. That's so terroristics, isn't
29:26
it? To just give it a one one word
29:27
thing like that. Our Mcguffin is is being
29:32
explored on Della. Somehow Bernice gets too close
29:35
to it and thus one of her students gets murdered on a
29:39
hover bike or. Something blown up on on a bike.
29:42
Yeah. Then she's fired and so she
29:45
goes. Well, I've got nothing else to
29:46
lose. I may as well go with you to
29:47
Mega City. Mega City.
29:49
I mean, come. On obviously never heard of
29:53
Judge Dredd in 2000 AD Yeah to Levine just let him off.
29:57
But I mean it, it's a lot of it's very 2000 AD and indeed
30:01
mega city. Why not read any of that?
30:03
Dylan, please explain. You've heard the audios, though.
30:06
Oh yeah, the big finish ones. I don't know.
30:09
They're they're good. Yeah, but I don't know, I just,
30:11
it just feels like, it feels like it could be that world
30:14
almost. I know it's not quite gangs of
30:16
Wolverines and the Lucifer people or whatever, whatever
30:20
they're called, but it's still gangs like futuristic gangs in a
30:24
sort of dystopian city. I actually disagree with you
30:28
though, Joe. I, I liked it when we jumped
30:31
back to the, the Chris and Bernie stuff.
30:33
I like the story. I like their story and how
30:35
they're wrapped up in it. I like them pretending to be
30:37
mobsters and meeting Lucifer and Lucifer and her, you know,
30:41
basically having a bit of a flirt.
30:43
And I think I think they're wrapped up in it in a, in a good
30:46
way. And I think it's it's a nice, I
30:48
like their interactions with with that world.
30:51
I mean let's not pretend though he hasn't written that already
30:53
as well. That's basically Ace's role in
30:55
Blood Harvest isn't it? Pretending to be a mobsters
30:58
mole. Look, I mean if it works for
31:00
Steven Moffett repeating things all the time, it can work for
31:03
Terrence Dicks. Like if it works, it works and
31:05
you can use it in different stories.
31:08
I think like the the mega city setting, it works to the extent
31:13
that there's like a danger at every corner.
31:15
So everywhere they go there's either a shootout, there's
31:18
terrible violence, Wolverines jump out of, you know, cars and
31:21
try and tear people up or things like that.
31:24
But what I really like was the more quirky details that you put
31:29
in. There's one bit where Bernice
31:30
goes to get sort of dressed up all glam because she's this sort
31:34
of mob boss. And a dragon.
31:37
The dragon, yeah, she's not too happy about that.
31:40
And. And Alpha Centuron gives her the
31:43
bloody gun. He sells her the gun.
31:45
You imagine him there going, Oh yes, you're gone.
31:50
Just because the Alpha Centuron's got a high pitched
31:53
voice doesn't mean they can't be a a terrible arms dealer as
31:56
well. At the same time, they're a
31:58
layered race. I think there's one working in a
32:00
jazz band later in the later in the book, you know, Sorry.
32:05
Go on. No.
32:06
No, go on. I was just going to say that
32:08
there was all sorts of little touches.
32:09
There's one where someone's smoking, drashing cigarettes as
32:12
well, aren't they? Yes, it's Garshak.
32:15
Yes. And he's smoking.
32:17
Yeah, and I'm immediately picturing my stepmom used to
32:20
smoke Marlboro Reds, which used to sort of take felt like they
32:23
took the skin off your throat. That's what I imagine a drashing
32:26
cigarette tastes like. It's like the harshest one that
32:29
you can smoke. Garshak also says, I mean,
32:31
Terence wants to get his continuity in here.
32:33
My bank account was getting low enough to crawl under a dialect.
32:39
I wrote that down too. I wrote that down as well.
32:42
Well, did you like, did you like the setting then?
32:45
John, could you have spent a bit more time in Mega City?
32:51
Yes and no, because like Dylan said, it's the cliches of that
32:57
genre. But yeah, it's kind of
33:00
interesting because you've got that alien thing, like, you
33:02
know, you've got an Alpha Centauri selling guns.
33:05
You've got, I'd say some weird, these ear scenes, these bear
33:11
like heavies that that are being used.
33:14
That's a bit weird. I just keep seeing Bungle from
33:17
Rainbow in my head. I don't know why.
33:20
I kept seeing you remember the what was the episode Terminal
33:23
Blake Seven? Were those sort of men dressed
33:25
up in shackling costumes? Yes, I kept seeing them.
33:30
See, why is my brain like I'm reading a book?
33:33
I should be going high budget instead.
33:35
No, I go low budget every time. See the Wolverines.
33:38
I literally was just seeing Wolverine from the X-Men
33:41
cartoon. A bunch of them.
33:45
I've seen something, I've seen sort of something from Star Wars
33:48
for the Wolverines. OK, I mean, for the for mega
33:52
city itself, I was seeing that sort of Coruscant style city.
33:56
It's what all I ever see when when I think of a space city.
33:59
Spine vehicles. Yeah, you know the one that sort
34:02
of Anakin Skywalker's flying about on on his hover car, that
34:05
sort of thing. Can I ask you gentlemen, please?
34:09
Now I need you to explain this to me because I'm long critical
34:14
of Christopher Quedge. The dullest character You.
34:19
Leave him alone. Well, we're sold at the start of
34:22
this. You know, he's lost Roz and he's
34:24
he's a lot darker these days. And the more mature was he?
34:28
I mean, it just seemed like Chris Quedge from Shakedown to
34:31
me. Discuss.
34:35
I think he is. I mean, he's pretty much
34:37
business as usual here. I'm sure he's been through some
34:40
stuff, but it's not really referenced that much in here.
34:43
We get a couple of little references to Ross.
34:45
I think there's one at the beginning and one at the end.
34:47
But I mean, he lands on the planet, does some investigating,
34:51
gets into a fight, has some sex like that is like it's pretty
34:55
much quenched by numbers, but. Friday night for you, isn't it?
34:59
Quite, yes, but I think I don't have a problem with him.
35:03
I think he's great. But then the first time I ever
35:07
read a Chris novel was Damaged Goods.
35:13
So where he's written very well and has a lot to do.
35:16
So I, I, I kind of think of him in that mode.
35:20
And also I've read some of the, the, the Quedge spin off
35:23
anthology. And so I've been in his head.
35:27
Oh OK, well I mean now it's my turn to disagree with you
35:30
because he really doesn't have that much to do in damaged goods
35:33
except go down on some bloke in a back alley.
35:35
That's basically all he does in that book.
35:37
That's like you on a Friday night.
35:40
John, what do you do on a Friday night?
35:43
You read Main Streets, don't you?
35:44
By Terry Sticks. What do you think of Chris John?
35:50
I've I've liked him since his first book, Original Sin, but I
35:56
think he works better with Ross as a kind of not quite a double
36:02
act, but I think definitely he works like in fact, I've not
36:06
read these books for over 20 years and some only once.
36:10
So I have fond memories of him. So when I reread Shakedown, it's
36:16
like, oh, right, I really like him and Ros And then I read this
36:20
one. I didn't like him quite so much
36:21
without Ros, but I I still, you know, I'm still a fan.
36:25
I'm a fan of Chris Quedge. I can't quite remember what
36:28
happened towards the end of the new adventures where it went
36:31
weird and he was working with the Time Lord and regenerated
36:33
into some It should be blown and now it's in all kind of weird
36:38
faction paradox stuff I have no idea about.
36:40
The only. Thing they were doing.
36:42
For him was that he was a blonde hunk.
36:44
What did they do to him? Yeah, but but yeah, I've always
36:48
liked Chris Wedge. I mean, I, I thought it was very
36:51
telling the lion that said, you know, he's a lot more mature
36:54
these days. He's been through a lot.
36:55
I I had in the back of my head was, yeah, he's been through the
36:58
new adventures. Of course.
37:00
He's of course he's considering things a bit more these days.
37:05
Did you guys like the the I calling it the budget
37:08
hitchhikers excellence that were?
37:11
In this, I was thinking that as I was reading, I think, hang on
37:14
what? Who's saying this is this car
37:15
shack and then realising, no, it's and then at the end it says
37:19
travel guide. Oh.
37:20
It's a guide book, isn't it? Yeah, I thought those were
37:23
delightful. I was, I think.
37:24
They were good. I think it's Dylan that usually
37:26
says to me there's Terrance there, you know, chuckling away
37:30
keyboard. And as he was right in those
37:32
sections, I mean, it was just a way of adding a bit of detail
37:35
and colour to Mega City, but they weren't fun.
37:38
They weren't really well like I was.
37:40
I was not. They shouldn't do.
37:43
They should come off as a cheek RIP off, but Dicks is good
37:47
enough and tongue in cheek enough to be able to to pull
37:50
them off and they're done knowingly.
37:53
Were you boys convinced by the the, the first great reveal of
37:59
what the project was? You know, the drug Scoob Scoob
38:03
Terrence, had he just watched scooby-doo?
38:08
I mean, were you convinced? I mean, I was like 2/3 into the
38:12
book and I was like, there's still quite a bit to go.
38:16
Yeah, I, I'd forgotten what the project was because, you know,
38:19
I've not I've not read this since 1998.
38:21
So. So I thought, oh, yeah, that
38:23
that's what it is. It's this this drug that's
38:25
turning people psychotic and making them violent.
38:29
And I thought, all right, OK, that's it.
38:31
And then, like Dylan says, it's like 20-30 pages left of the
38:34
book. You think, hang on, what's left?
38:36
Surely that surely that that was, I thought, great, mystery
38:39
solved. Why is it needs to be anything
38:40
deeper? But then they go, oh, it's going
38:42
to ruin the Galaxy ever. When you think, OK, well, drugs
38:45
will do that. Yeah, I it was, it was fine as a
38:51
bit of A twist, but you are kind of looking at your book going,
38:54
OK, well, it's not going to be this, but I would, it would have
38:58
been fine if it had finished there.
39:00
I, I don't, I suppose it needed to be bigger a little bit.
39:04
And you know, they're, they're going to bring down the mayor,
39:07
they're going to bring back down the board, they're going to
39:09
bring down the government. That's what you do in things
39:11
like this. It's, you know, it's not just
39:13
the detective things like detective noir books and things
39:17
like that, film noir. It's not just, you know, it's
39:20
also things like Robocup and stuff like that.
39:23
I think it's all thrown in there along with Judge Dredd of like,
39:26
no, you've got to bring everything down to start again.
39:29
So I I did. I don't mind the ending, but if
39:33
it had just finished with the drugs I would it would have felt
39:35
a little bit more contained and I would have been fine with
39:38
that. But you know, like the the bit
39:39
where they they hijacked the shipment of the drugs and then
39:43
they sort of split it open and go, my God, there's there's
39:47
scoop inside this other drug. You know, I was like, it can't
39:51
be this, it can't be drugs hidden within drugs.
39:55
I think that's that is very funny that you've got a drug so
39:58
bad you smuggle it with another. Drug.
40:00
I think that is brilliant. That's how Terrence Dicks thinks
40:05
about crime. Yeah.
40:07
Do you know what? Maybe the the police should be
40:09
reading this book. You know, they'd they'd figure
40:11
out where all the drugs are inside all the heroin.
40:16
Now you don't smuggle heroin. You smuggle heroin inside
40:19
something like, I don't know, weed or something.
40:21
Like that? How do you know so much about
40:22
this, Dylan? I know that.
40:24
What? What are the worst drugs?
40:28
I'm not. I'm not, OK.
40:30
I'm a drug dealer. Guys, look.
40:32
You've been to the odd festival, have you?
40:34
With something clenched between your buttocks, have you?
40:37
That that explains to rap music, doesn't it?
40:43
I mean, when it came to the genetic manipulation at the end,
40:46
I thought, well, it's got 10 pages to give this nuance and
40:50
depth and layers and no, he just basically drops it like a big
40:55
clang and then goes, Oh, well, that's all over with now then.
41:00
Look, it's the ride with Terrence Dicks.
41:02
He's never going. To.
41:08
It's the ride he takes you on. It's like, I can't think of a a
41:12
Dick story or novel where there's like a big revelation
41:15
and you're like, Oh my God, like like perhaps his nearest is that
41:21
he is to win. They will lose in the in the
41:24
five doctors, but that's not what you're there for.
41:27
You, like Steven Moffett, will do the twists or whoever, like
41:31
Terrence Dicks, is getting you from A to B.
41:33
I've said it before, and you're going to have a great time on
41:35
the way. And that's all I can say is that
41:38
though I was never bored, I was never going, oh, how much of
41:42
this is left? I was just going, this is a lot
41:44
of fun chuckling to myself and just.
41:47
Yeah, so. Have either of you 2 read World
41:49
Game the Terrence? His very last book.
41:53
Yes, I've read them all. So he.
41:56
He. He.
41:58
Yeah, he manages to rug pull in that book in a way that I've
42:04
never seen him do before because he murders.
42:07
He murders off somebody, I'm not going to say who, but he murders
42:10
off something you would imagine would absolutely make it out of
42:13
the book. And it's about 2/3 in, so it's
42:16
just at the right point and you're like, fuck me, where's
42:18
the book going to go from here? Is it Napoleon?
42:21
No, it is not Napoleon. Well, look, guys, please scour
42:28
your nose. But the trouble with a Terrance
42:30
book is, is there's not an enormous amount of depth and
42:34
things to pull inside out and back to front.
42:36
John, I'm imagining you've done the most research of all of us.
42:39
So what's on your page? 2 pages of a notebook.
42:42
Come on, let's go. OK, so right.
42:47
OK, so it's I really, really wish I could remember.
42:52
I even find an interview with Terrence Dicks to say what
42:56
inspired this because it's like missing scenes from Shakedown
42:59
inspired a spin off novel because there's no mention of it
43:03
in Shakedown and it's like oh what idea can I have?
43:06
Oh I know. And then, then what else?
43:09
It's almost a shame you know that in Shakedown, that scene,
43:13
you know that there is the flashback to shake down with
43:15
Ross and Chris in Mega City that that wasn't there.
43:18
It's just like oh this is also going on as well and loose end
43:22
to be picked up later. But but if he likes an idea,
43:25
Terence Dix will pick it up anytime like that.
43:27
The Raston Warrior robot shows up in so many of his books
43:31
because he just thinks it's a bloody good idea.
43:34
So like, and the 6B, you know, he was, he was the originator of
43:38
that and stuff like that. He's just like, you know, what?
43:42
If, if I can get the doctor, 2nd Doctor working for the Time
43:44
Lords and get a Rast on warrior robot in if I can revisit the
43:48
mega city, I will because those are the world's he's created and
43:52
feels comfortable in. What?
43:53
A bloody nerve of him on those doc DVD documentaries going.
43:56
You know, we had the same story from Terry Nation over and over
44:00
again and we said just go away and write something original.
44:03
I wonder if Justin Richards, the third Players novel, turned up
44:06
on his. Oh Terence, it's exactly the
44:09
same. You've just gone to a different
44:10
historical period. You know, we're saying about how
44:14
an Alpha Centauri turned up, which it could be anything
44:18
because, you know, we're not bothered about copyright because
44:21
it's not Doctor anymore. But a Cholonian gets mentioned.
44:24
You've got an oak on, of course, who's a main character.
44:28
You know, I think the BBC must have just nodded it through.
44:32
I mean, who was in charge then? Was it Steve Cole still?
44:36
It was 97, so it would be, wouldn't it?
44:38
Yeah, and they obviously they could do as much continuity as
44:41
they wanted, but also terrorists was writing for them as well.
44:44
Right, right. Exactly.
44:45
We'll give you the Ogrons, but will you write as catastrophe,
44:48
please? Yeah, exactly.
44:50
That's that's what it was. What else?
44:53
Oh yeah, the the project taking so long to find out what it is,
44:58
it's like nobody knows. Every time they talk to somebody
45:00
behind a clue, you think where is it's going, you know?
45:04
No, I thought the twist was the. Idea.
45:06
Go on. I genuinely thought the twist,
45:08
because it was 20 pages before the end was going to be that
45:11
there is no project and just the rumor of the project was enough
45:17
to to keep all of the sort of the crime gangs and that in a
45:21
spin. And the whole thing was like a
45:23
massive deflection. I thought, oh, that would be
45:25
quite clever. That might have been a better
45:27
twist actually, because for a detective model, for a detective
45:32
novel, there's not much detecting.
45:34
And as you say John, every time they meet someone that knows
45:36
anything, they go, well, I don't actually know anything, but I do
45:40
know someone who might know something that happens about 3
45:43
or 4 times. Oh, oh, speaking, Speaking of
45:46
detecting, I think the only detecting that went on was when
45:49
that that man that looked after the, the the beer, the the, the
45:54
beer wine cellar got murdered. That was the only real bit of
45:57
detecting. And then that bit when Chris, he
46:00
secretly records him with with a massive tape.
46:03
OK, but how dumb is this character?
46:06
In fact, it happens earlier on in the novel.
46:08
Someone else gets secretly recording in a really obvious
46:11
way. Just think.
46:12
When he played the recording, the crime Lord went, oh, you
46:16
tricked me. I mean, at the end of the book,
46:24
right? But he's basically brings down
46:26
Mega City. Doesn't she like the crime Lord,
46:29
the mayor, everybody in just in one speech, One speech, you
46:33
know? But how do we know we're leaving
46:38
Mega City in a better place? Surely other crime syndicates
46:41
and things are going to pop up. I think Mega City is always
46:43
going to be a place of crime and nefarious dealings, but it's
46:47
just making sure they're not as bad as the Scoob infestation,
46:50
you know? Nefarious, you say?
46:52
How much is a ticket there? That's £20.
46:57
Of a wire. Across.
46:58
It's Las Vegas, isn't it? It's Vegas, all Chicago and
47:02
Prohibition, something like that.
47:03
It's like it's somewhere that is heavily influenced by criminals
47:08
and it's a way of life. But please, let's all
47:12
acknowledge this. It is like the the Lady Bird
47:16
book of crime. There's no, there's no great
47:20
depth to any of these syndicates.
47:22
You know, like, like if this was rewritten by, I don't know, Jim
47:25
Mortimer or somebody like that, you know, these would be proper
47:29
speedy, you know, miserable, rat infested, morally ambiguous
47:35
characters. But with Terrance, it's just
47:38
somebody coming along and going, you know, I run this city OK,
47:42
with a gun. And the hoonah versus all the
47:45
more richer for it. It doesn't always need to be the
47:49
Jim Mortimer version. It never needs to be the Jim
47:52
Mortimer version. John, anything else in your
47:55
book? I did write down inventions of
47:58
racks head at one point so. Rack so in the drug.
48:03
Yeah. But the mandrels feature as well
48:05
then. No, no, there's no mandrels,
48:07
just someone's described as a rack's head.
48:10
I thought mandrels were racks, Owen.
48:12
Oh, they were, but they they don't appear.
48:14
It's just someone that's high on.
48:16
He's smuggling in the mid under the continuity radar.
48:20
Actually something that they also brought in from Hang on
48:26
another stereotype he brought in from the detective crime warping
48:30
was that Sarah, who runs Sarah Seller is a redhead.
48:35
Is that they're always redheads, aren't they?
48:37
That very heads are always trouble.
48:38
I've just read a book called The Cocktail Waitress by James and
48:42
Kane, and that's and she's a redhead and on the cover, sexy
48:46
redhead. You know, it's all there.
48:50
You know, even Beverly Crusher in Next Generation, the Big
48:53
Goodbye. You know, it's all there.
48:58
But a couple of things, some quotes.
49:02
I love that quote. So, so Garshat says an old, old
49:06
grand proverb. When you have them by the balls,
49:08
their hearts and minds will follow.
49:11
I think he said that about the the chair that the the the
49:15
board, the board of the mining company when an event at the
49:20
end, he kind of paraphrases Casablanca when Garshat says
49:26
we'll always have megacity, he's.
49:29
Even say, well, here's looking at you kid.
49:34
What did this line mean? Right?
49:36
I took a note down at this and I was a bit disturbed by it.
49:40
So you know, whoever's the least innocent of the two of you maybe
49:44
can explain what this means. I'm ready and waiting.
49:47
I'd like to. This is Lucifer, you know the
49:49
demonoid saying this to Benny at the end?
49:52
You know, I'd like to ask you to spend your last night on Megara
49:55
here with me too, but you probably wouldn't survive that
49:59
either. What the hell does that mean?
50:02
I think the same reason Wolf says a human female.
50:08
OK, Lucifan Azar, I'll leave it there.
50:14
Who? Knows.
50:16
Any more quotes? Strom.
50:18
No, but just something about my bank account was so low I could
50:22
crawl under a Dalek that you mentioned already.
50:26
Well, everybody, I mean, Dylan, you kind of had, but do it
50:29
again. Summarize your thoughts on Main
50:32
Streets. Yeah.
50:34
Overall, what did you think of this as a as a read?
50:36
It's a wonderful CD, fun world that I would revisit.
50:41
I wouldn't want a whole series of novels set there, but if the
50:43
if Terrence Dix had gone back here once every five years with
50:47
a different Doctor Who story, I would have been very happy.
50:50
I love The Wolverine gangs. I love Lucifer and the
50:53
Demonoids, I I love the the all the corporation stuff and most
50:58
of all I love Garshak. He should be.
51:00
He should be in more spin off material.
51:03
He needs it on spin off. He does.
51:04
Exactly. I'll buy the rights, we'll do
51:07
the audio series. But yeah, I just, I, I loved
51:12
everything about this. I thought it was so much fun.
51:15
It's not going to be in anybody's well, maybe it will,
51:17
but it's not going to be in anybody's top ten of Doctor Who
51:20
novels. You say that every time we cover
51:23
it. Darren's fix book.
51:24
Yeah. Well, that that's true, though.
51:25
Like meat and potatoes is the wrong word for Terrence Dicks
51:30
because it might be meat and potatoes, but he puts the
51:33
richest, most delicious gravy and all the trimmings.
51:36
But it's just not, you know, it's not a complicated Michelin
51:39
style meal. So God bless you Terence for
51:43
this. What a guy.
51:45
You know, we could say it's in your top ten of hamster book
51:48
Club books that you've read, but you've only read three and two
51:51
of them. John, overall thoughts.
52:00
So I enjoyed it, but not as much as I thought I would.
52:06
That I suppose to quote J&T, the memory cheats because I, I, I
52:11
just remember the thing that stuck out for me most was Garsh
52:14
Acts, bits, ways and a rating. I wish there'd be more of that.
52:18
But overall that that probably put the rating down a bit.
52:22
But I'd probably give a book an 8 out of 10.
52:25
I mean, that's pretty high, you know, it's.
52:27
It's, you know, Dylan was saying about the memory.
52:30
Whoever what he said about in the top ten books, I'd say it's
52:34
in the top 10 beneath New Adventures.
52:38
There's only 24 though, remember?
52:39
Yeah, but still, I don't know, it got weird towards the end
52:43
drone so so that's the one that kind of stuck in my head along
52:47
with Oh no it isn't and beyond the sun.
52:52
I thought I thought the cover was terrible.
52:56
I love the cover. I love that cover.
52:57
It's really great, isn't it? You've got sort of Gar Shack in
53:00
silhouette with the cigarette in his mouth and then Benny in the
53:03
trench coat and the hat sort of looking off a bit sheepishly.
53:08
Really, I think these Bernie's New Avenger covers are
53:10
wonderful. The covers by someone called
53:12
Fred Gambino. Yeah.
53:15
Is he a mafia member from Mega city He?
53:18
Did a lot of the covers. Fred Gambino.
53:20
We were just talking about Fred Gambino.
53:22
It was the covers. So Fred Gambino does the cover
53:26
for quite a few of the Bernie Summerfields and then he does 2
53:30
new adventures which are Long Barrow and the Dying Days.
53:34
I wonder where Fred Gambino is now if he's not been killed in a
53:38
mafia hit. And and is he selling the
53:41
artwork for Mean Streets? Yeah.
53:43
Exactly. I mean, if he did some of those
53:45
early ones, walk into Babylon's got a fabulous cover.
53:47
Oh no, it isn't. It's a brilliant cover.
53:50
Yeah, so I mean, I'm, I'm looking him up now.
53:53
I I went into this book, I never quite know what to expect from
53:57
these Bernie Summerfield books, but a Terrence Dicks written
54:00
Bernie Summerfield New Adventures I kind of knew I
54:03
could switch my brain off and relax and just read it.
54:07
What I didn't expect was the first half of the book, all the
54:10
scene setting was just a total riot and I was laughing my way
54:15
through those pages having the best time.
54:18
The second-half of the book, my patients wore a bit thin with
54:23
how lights and like this is not character LED in any way.
54:28
I think that the most depth you get in this book is a bit where
54:32
Garshak and Chris sort of say to each other, oh, you miss being a
54:36
cop to do you. Yeah, me too.
54:38
And that's about it. I was going well, development of
54:42
a soul, I suppose, and then the ending, which is, you know,
54:47
Dylan, shut your ears an enormous Chris Chipnall info
54:50
dump of right. This is what I loved it I.
54:54
Loved it so much this is. What this has all been about all
54:57
along, with no zero time for any kind of consequence of the
55:01
twist. Consequences are overrated.
55:05
Not in a book. They're not in a 300 page bloody
55:09
book. Yeah.
55:11
So I thought I just buy the second-half of the book.
55:13
A little less fun. But all that stuff exploring.
55:18
I mean, I want to go to Mega City, you know, I want to hear
55:21
the Arcturian Jazz Band and go to Sarah Seller.
55:25
Sarah Seller. I mean, God sakes Terrance, try
55:28
again. Smoker.
55:30
Dragon drink down some rag. What was it he had?
55:33
Did he have a Wolverine? He didn't have a cat on the on
55:37
the balcony, did he? He had like a man who he would
55:42
put liquor down to. Drink off the floor sort of cat
55:49
bird thing. Yeah, go, go to Megacity, invoke
55:53
a blood debt with the Wolverines, that sort of thing.
55:56
You know great times have by all.
55:58
OK, well then I suppose my last question for both of you is, has
56:02
this inspired you both to read further Bernie Sommerfeld New
56:07
Adventures, or only when I absolutely forced you to do it?
56:12
John well, again, I've not read half most of these since it
56:20
first came out, so I would, but I'm more interested in rereading
56:25
the New Adventures with the Doctor first because I reread
56:32
All Consuming Fire for Dylan's podcast.
56:36
Indeed, last year was it this year and and I hadn't read that
56:40
for 20 odd years and I loved it and I thought it's amazing.
56:43
I've forgotten how good Denise was and how good these books
56:46
were so. John, it's another book.
56:48
You know when they dropped the first person narration?
56:50
It sort of goes to shit in it. No, I, I, I think all consuming
56:56
fire actually holds holds its own when it when they drop the
56:59
first person narration. But I, I do see the comparison.
57:03
Yeah, I loved all consuming fire.
57:04
Oh no, I think that the Sherlock Holmes sections are fabulous.
57:09
Yeah, I. There's a lot of Doctor Who
57:13
books I haven't read, so I wouldn't, I'm not going to go
57:16
and seek out more Benny books. But if somebody says to me, come
57:19
on my podcast and read a Benny book, mainly you, I think
57:22
probably Joe, but maybe I mean anybody really, then I probably
57:27
would. But I don't think they're high
57:28
on my list of of books I'm going to get to that I've not read
57:34
before. I remember when we covered
57:38
Shakedown with Michael Mills and I said, gosh acts in another
57:42
book written by terrorist Dicks in the Benny Sommerfield range.
57:46
You went signed me up. And I think it, I think it was
57:50
the Terrence Dicks part of that sentence that absolutely sold
57:53
you on it. Well, yeah, I like, I mean,
57:55
there's Terence Dick's books I haven't read.
57:57
So World Game, you were talking about things like.
57:59
That warmonger, warmonger I've not.
58:01
Read avoid warmonger that that. That is the one book of his that
58:06
I genuinely hated and and only read it out finished it out of
58:11
loyalty. I'm literally reading it right
58:14
now. What the?
58:14
Fuck was going through his head when when he.
58:16
I won't spoil it for Dylan, but that bit with Perry is absolute
58:21
pets. I started reading, making a note
58:25
of how many rape references he could get in that book, but I
58:28
gave up once I filled up two exercise.
58:30
Was young, drugs or depressed when he wrote?
58:32
No idea, I don't know. Jesus.
58:35
Well, maybe that won't be harmless, but maybe I'll read.
58:39
Oh no it isn't. Or something.
58:41
Like that, I'm, I'm, I am intrigued to read more of these,
58:46
but I am again, I'm going to sort of circle back around to
58:49
where I started. I am baffled that, you know,
58:52
like before this you had a Gary Russell book and he is a mixed
58:58
author at best, a Christopher Beulis book and he is a, a
59:03
vanilla author at best, Simon Butcher Jones book.
59:07
He is usually fairly impenetrable.
59:09
And then a terrorist sticks book.
59:11
And I'm like, there's so many styles of writing there.
59:15
Who who are you trying to appeal to?
59:17
I just didn't get it. You're not.
59:19
Spewless was next. Oh.
59:21
God that was he next? OK, but.
59:23
I guess within that you've got to, as you say, you need to with
59:28
Doctor Who, you can jump around in the styles because everybody
59:31
knows the genre, everybody knows what the show is, everybody
59:34
knows what the new adventures are doing.
59:35
By that point. You're not carving A cohesive
59:38
book range with that variety of styles for something new.
59:43
If you are trying to get people on board that aren't Doctor Who
59:45
fans and sell it as the these new adventures are the new
59:49
adventures of someone called Burnish Summerfield and Chris
59:52
Quedge. Who you want to and you want
59:54
people to go on adventures with them.
59:56
Like there needs to be a house style.
59:57
I think that perhaps isn't observed over those first few
1:00:00
books. I think when Benny skipped over
1:00:03
to Big Finish like you said, they really developed an
1:00:06
identity for her. The collection was the vivid
1:00:09
setting, packed full of fun, engaging characters to be with
1:00:13
that we kept coming back to all of the time.
1:00:15
There was running storylines. We had Braxia tell there in the
1:00:18
background doing his evil machinations, and it absolutely
1:00:22
ducked. It grabbed an audience.
1:00:24
You you really miss Braxia Tell in this Actually, like could
1:00:28
that's the that when I think of Benny, I think of Braxia tell in
1:00:32
the background, not just the fucking university.
1:00:34
Like I don't give a fuck about the university to be honest.
1:00:36
What can I think how she's going to get her job back?
1:00:38
And it just pops up at the end it goes, Oh, hello, Denise.
1:00:41
Don't worry, I've sorted it all out with the purser.
1:00:44
You're back to work on Monday. Well, John, did you say you had
1:00:49
a recommendation for us? Did I You did my podcast?
1:00:56
Oh. Go for it.
1:00:57
Or was it a book? Because I really can't.
1:01:01
Well, I mean, if you've got a book to recommend, please do.
1:01:03
And then please do mention your podcast.
1:01:06
I'm not sure about the book. Maybe try one of these noiris,
1:01:12
you know, maybe read the Big Sleep to see you know.
1:01:17
But I was going to say though, if if you are willing to suffer,
1:01:23
I am open to to re reading any of these Bernice only new
1:01:27
adventures for for your podcast again if you have me back.
1:01:31
Oh, John, that was never in any doubt.
1:01:34
The the second you said yes to doing this one, that's it.
1:01:37
Once. Once you're in, you're in.
1:01:39
I beg your pardon? You've never been out, have you?
1:01:43
Oh, good grief. No, of course we will.
1:01:45
Of course we will. Well.
1:01:47
What about your podcast then? So there are two podcasts that
1:01:52
I'm I'm part of the team with my good friends Rebecca Ray and
1:01:56
Danny Ray and our silent partner, Kevin Hayley, who's our
1:01:59
producer. The first one we did was Tripods
1:02:03
cast because we we wind all the way back to COVID 2020.
1:02:10
Rebecca, Danny and I did a book club because Danny doesn't read
1:02:14
much. And so we're doing it over Skype
1:02:16
and it was just such a laugh. Such like this podcast?
1:02:20
Was that normal books? Yeah, well, well, it, it, it
1:02:23
was, it was all kinds of stuff. It was stuff that had been
1:02:26
sitting on a shelf and Shant read.
1:02:27
So we've read some YA stuff, like One of us is next.
1:02:32
We we've read some Stephen King stuff, you know, at the Batman
1:02:36
books, we've read Susan Calvin's autobiography, all kinds of
1:02:41
stuff. In fact, we're just about to do
1:02:44
Dolores Claiborne by Stephen King, which is my suggestion.
1:02:47
Take a turn each. Anyway, so I thought this is
1:02:50
such a laugh and everybody's doing a podcast in lockdown and
1:02:53
I thought not quite jumping on a bandwagon, but we've always been
1:02:56
creative and not having anything to do.
1:02:59
I thought, let's do a podcast. So so we read the White
1:03:02
Mountains, the first Tripods novel and Danny loved it.
1:03:05
She's not a big sci-fi fan, but she loved it.
1:03:08
And then Rebecca and I conspired and said, you know what, there's
1:03:11
ATV series plus, you know, these these other books and they went,
1:03:14
what do you think about doing a podcast?
1:03:16
It's like yes, so so so the. Podcast words.
1:03:20
They're all friends dread hearing.
1:03:21
What do you think about doing a podcast?
1:03:23
Yeah, so and we noticed apart from the one off episode from
1:03:27
various podcasts, there wasn't anything dedicated to it.
1:03:31
So I thought there's a gap in the market.
1:03:33
There's there's at least 2300 die hard tripods fans out there.
1:03:38
There's random Americans that have read it as teenagers that
1:03:42
didn't know as ATV show that have listened to our podcast.
1:03:46
You know, some of the audience is there.
1:03:49
So we did that. We talked about each book and
1:03:52
then we talked about each season of ATV series.
1:03:55
And along the way we looked at the Tripods fandom.
1:03:58
Beleaga Freeman spin off merchandise.
1:04:01
We did an episode about Sam Mude who was John Christopher, spoke
1:04:05
to two of his kids who run his literary estate.
1:04:08
We covered everything. We interviewed the four main
1:04:11
cast, John Shapley, Carrie Seal, Jim Baker, Robin Hayter and the
1:04:17
producer Richard Bates. We even got fans to send in Vox
1:04:21
pops for an episode and the response was amazing.
1:04:25
Everyone loves loves the podcast who loves it?
1:04:28
And then we thought, what can we do next?
1:04:31
Well, the follow up was I don't do sci-fi where we get Danny to
1:04:34
watch classic films and and TV of our choice.
1:04:38
So we've done things like Star Cops, Dark Season, Blake Seven,
1:04:42
Death Race 2000, The Stone Tape, Canine and Company.
1:04:49
That's it. Dylan, your numbers are going
1:04:50
down for the next few weeks. All right, I'm going to be
1:04:53
helping out for listening to this.
1:04:55
And we've just done Quite Fast and The Pit and the original
1:04:58
Star Trek series coming up. We've got Hitchhikers TV series
1:05:02
next, which I know Dylan did with Doctor Who, Shaw, you know,
1:05:06
very improbable. So what else we've got?
1:05:11
Robot What's? That one called John, the one
1:05:13
where it's other TV shows. I don't do sci-fi so so if you
1:05:17
just search. I don't it's.
1:05:18
Great, so if you put it to Google or Spotify, either
1:05:21
Tripods Cast or I don't do sci-fi.
1:05:25
We've got Blue Sky Council in both and that one's for the
1:05:29
other place as well, but we just post new episodes on there.
1:05:33
We've got a YouTube channel. It's not visual, although The
1:05:35
Canine Company 1 is, so that that we recommend you watch that
1:05:39
version and that's it. And you can find me on Blue Sky.
1:05:45
I'm Celsi John. So it's Isles backwards.
1:05:49
You believe there are other people with my name?
1:05:53
Ridiculous. Yeah.
1:05:54
I've got such an uncommon name. There is nobody else you know.
1:05:58
You know, anyone you know with Isles probably isn't related to
1:06:01
me, even though I'm from a large family.
1:06:04
Every time I says, oh, do you know, I know Brenda Ryles,
1:06:07
whatever. No, no idea.
1:06:09
You think you got my name? Surname's Ford, for God's sakes.
1:06:12
You know how many Fords there are out there?
1:06:15
Dylan's the only one who has now.
1:06:16
Doesn't have too many, probably. There are a lot of reasons.
1:06:18
There are in Wales. Oh, of course, yeah.
1:06:21
I don't live in Wales so it's fine.
1:06:23
Well, you know, somebody else who has a very popular podcast
1:06:27
is oh, Dylan, Reese, Dylan, why don't you tell everyone?
1:06:29
I mean everyone listen to this knows but.
1:06:32
If you don't know, I do a podcast called Too Hot for TV
1:06:36
and we look at anything Doctor Who.
1:06:38
This isn't the television show. I mean, as we record this, I've
1:06:41
just done an episode on the Doctor Who trump cards from the
1:06:45
70s. Me and John have just done an
1:06:49
episode on an audio visuals play, a Stranger video and a Big
1:06:53
finish. But we cover anything.
1:06:55
Joe. Me and Joe recorded the Stranger
1:06:57
audios today for it. We're still recovering, yes.
1:07:01
We're still recovering, but anything goes really, as long as
1:07:04
it's not televised. Doctor Who, because you couldn't
1:07:06
hear people talk about that elsewhere.
1:07:09
So I do that. I'll pop up on strangers in
1:07:11
space from time to from time to time, and anywhere that will
1:07:14
have me, including here. And Hamster.
1:07:17
He also just recorded a fabulous four part commentary on the
1:07:20
power of crawl. His choice.
1:07:23
Were you joining with the crawl chance?
1:07:27
Yeah, it's absolutely. You're going to get through that
1:07:30
two hours sometime, you know. Well, John, you and me will
1:07:33
decide between us what book we're going to cover in the
1:07:36
future. But basically, I mean, I've only
1:07:38
done about 50 of about 5 million.
1:07:41
So take your pick, Dylan, you and me in the future we're going
1:07:44
to be covering another light hearted read.
1:07:47
You know, that opens with somebody attempting to slit
1:07:50
their wrist. The Sleep of Reason by Martin
1:07:52
Day. Yes, well, I've never read it
1:07:54
and I I've literally took it off the shelf this evening and I'm
1:07:57
going to start reading it as soon as this is over, so I look
1:08:01
forward. To coming back, send me a
1:08:03
message once you've read Chapter 1.
1:08:04
Or what do you think of that? It's a very arresting opening.
1:08:08
Was that the 8th Doctor one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's dark as
1:08:13
hell. No spoilers again, I can't
1:08:15
remember. Again, I've not read it since
1:08:17
publication, so I'll have. To Joe picked it because it's
1:08:21
very dark. We've done quite a lot of the
1:08:24
ones. The episodes of things I've been
1:08:26
on have been quite fluffy lightly, so we're going to do
1:08:30
something a little bit darker and meteor for the next one.
1:08:33
I mean, I wanted to have, yeah, a conversation that wasn't you
1:08:36
go well, had a lot of fun with that book, but also say about
1:08:40
Terrence. So I think, well, we've gone for
1:08:42
an hour and a half. I also think it is the best
1:08:47
depiction of depression in any Doctor Who book.
1:08:50
Martin Days put his work into that character.
1:08:53
Anyway, I'll say I hope you enjoy it because it's very dark.
1:08:57
Fellas. Thank you very much for your
1:08:59
time tonight. Now, if you care to just step on
1:09:01
board the the hovercraft over here, we'll head off for an
1:09:05
evening of debauchery and crime in Mega City.
1:09:09
Sarah Seller here we come. Oh, got it there.